Thoughts are not Energy

[Shabby]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more.

[sound]

Hi Shabby

Where does thought get its energy to move energy?

[Shabby]

Hi Shabby

Where does thought get its energy to move energy?

I am guessing your will/intent.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

It is my experience and understanding that thought is the 'force' of your existence, the measure of which is made known by your will/intent..

Be well..

[Miss Hepburn]

I am guessing your will/intent.
Yes, I've read also - backing your thoughts or prayer with 'intense emotion'
- helps the prayer get to where it's going and with impact.

[Shabby]

Greetings..

It is my experience and understanding that thought is the 'force' of your existence, the measure of which is made known by your will/intent..

Be well..

Hi Tzujanli! Your existence may be by force as you claim...but I know mine to be by grace.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Hi Tzujanili! Your existence may be by force as you claim...but I know mine to be by grace.
Can you explain? I do not understand 'grace' in this context..

Be well..

[Shabby]

If I have a positive thought...I create a positive experience - If I have a negative thought....I create a negative experience, but who creates when I take no thought?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

If I have a positive thought...I create a positive experience - If I have a negative thought....I create a negative experience, but who creates when I take no thought?
'You' are always the 'creator', whether in individuality or as One it is all 'you'.. a creation of self-discovery..

Be well..

[Shabby]

Greetings..


Can you explain? I do not understand 'grace' in this context..

Be well..

I am a witness to God's creation of perfection. It is a state of Grace rather than of force...as I understand that I of my own self can not add anything to that which God has already created (perfection).

[Stillness_Speaks]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more. Where is this coming from?

About the brain and energy:
http://web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm

[Shabby]

Greetings..


'You' are always the 'creator', whether in individuality or as One it is all 'you'.. a creation of self-discovery..

Be well..

I am one with the creator....it is an illusion that creates the illusion.

[Shabby]

Where is this coming from?

About the brain and energy:
http://web-us.com/brainwavesfunction.htm

I received this knowledge in meditation years ago. Here's a link on Ken Wilber brain activity experiment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4

[Bluegreen]

As I see it, thoughts use energy to create our reality. This means that the thoughts we think are extremely important.

[Shabby]

As I see it, thoughts use energy to create our reality. This means that the thoughts we think are extremely important.

Yes I agree with how you see it Bluegreen, but is it truly reality that we create?

[Stillness_Speaks]

I received this knowledge in meditation years ago. Here's a link on Ken Wilber brain activity experiment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFFMtq5g8N4

Ok. But this is already shown in quantum physics and modern science, that thoughts are energy? More knowledge about this anyone? About the video, as I see it, less thoughts-less energy. Maybe the kids could have these kind of tools in school later on.

Some words from a non-scientist in interview:

ECKHART TOLLE : Yes. So all these negative remnants of negative emotions, they become, they accumulate in the body. And then together they form what I call, because, now, we need to realize that any emotion that you have is a form of energy. That's acceptable, I think, to most people. Just as every thought you have is a form of energy.

OPRAH : Right.

ECKHART TOLLE : Every thought is energy, so there's nothing spooky about that. So when we say, when I say that the pain-body can be considered almost an entity in its own right that lives in you, some people find that's a little spooky, but all that I'm trying to say is here that it's an energy form.

[Stillness_Speaks]

As I see it, thoughts use energy to create our reality. This means that the thoughts we think are extremely important.
Another view is that thought is a form of energy that affects other kinds of energy. To much of them (to much energy) and some of them transforms in to another kind of more physical energy - headache :smile:

[Shabby]

Ok. But this is already shown in quantum physics and modern science, that thoughts are energy? More knowledge about this anyone? About the video, as I see it, less thoughts-less energy. Maybe the kids could have these kind of tools in school later on.

Some words from a non-scientist in interview:

ECKHART TOLLE : Yes. So all these negative remnants of negative emotions, they become, they accumulate in the body. And then together they form what I call, because, now, we need to realize that any emotion that you have is a form of energy. That's acceptable, I think, to most people. Just as every thought you have is a form of energy.

OPRAH : Right.

ECKHART TOLLE : Every thought is energy, so there's nothing spooky about that. So when we say, when I say that the pain-body can be considered almost an entity in its own right that lives in you, some people find that's a little spooky, but all that I'm trying to say is here that it's an energy form.

That would mean that if I had no thought energy would cease to exist and that is true for the one that is not taking thought (Guru's) but for everyone else that is still thinking energy is still creating. Thoughts appear in consciousness and when we give attention to them we become one with them and create that which comes to us as a experience. By changing our thoughts we change our experience...but does that mean we are experiencing what really IS? Or are we creating within the illusion an illusion?

[Stillness_Speaks]

That would mean that if I had no thought energy would cease to exist and that is true for the one that is not taking thought (Guru's) but for everyone else that is still thinking energy is still creating. Thoughts appear in consciousness and when we give attention to them we become one with them and create that which comes to us as a experience. By changing our thoughts we change our experience...but does that mean we are experiencing what really IS? Or are we creating within the illusion an illusion?

First, I have not awakened to Oneness so I can not say what is illusion or not. And consciousness is for me what I experience of it. That is... Thoughts appear in this "personal" consciousness. I as consciousness (not as thought) can choose (on good days :smile: ) if I should just let them pass or put attention to any of them. Now some playing and very by me unverified thruth... A thought is a little bubble of (low power) energy. By putting attention on that thought I give it more energy. Some consciousness-energy transforming to thought-energy. The more attention I give the thought and the more I believe it, the more energy it gets. The more real it gets? Creating? Help me now :D

[blackraven]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more.

Shabby - Aren’t thoughts neurons bouncing around in your brain? And isn’t the movement of neuron’s along their pathways, energy? It all seems like a mini explosion of cosmic energy only on an individual human scale.

Blackraven

[lemex]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more.
Agree with you. You got support here. I understand scientific research has recognized and agree thought doesn't follow or have properties of energy. Movement however can't be associated with thought. Everything within every aspect of the entire universe moves. Motion is not only going on but necessary. Without motion, no big-bang, no expansion, no life. I think motion is actually a key to life, universe, and reality. I certainly agree more energy cannot be created simply because Universe cannot exceed itself, sum or otherwise, no person has such power. Obviously there is more then energy or more to it in a larger context.



Time itself may be movement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually was wondering. Do we have any science majors who can confirm science does say thought doesn't follow the laws of physic, laws of thermal dynamics. I just remember reading this a while back. I'd be interested in confirming this.

[Winepenny]

Xenoglossis (glossolalia)
There was a time, perhaps before time itself, when man communicated with other than words, yet he was understood perfectly. He communicated in the language of spirit – let’s call it original speech. Original speech, rather than being an intellectual abstraction, is the language of ideas in which that which is uttered empowers the thing that is spoken of. In spirit, to speak of a thing is to vivify it. (In the beginning was the word.) To hold something in thought is to actualize it.

[Shabby]

Shabby - Aren’t thoughts neurons bouncing around in your brain? And isn’t the movement of neuron’s along their pathways, energy? It all seems like a mini explosion of cosmic energy only on an individual human scale.

Blackraven

Yes, I can see it that way too Blackraven.....but what remains is the question what happens outside of the brain when there is no thought? If thoughts create then what IS when there is no thought?

[Shabby]

Agree with you. You got support here. I understand scientific research has recognized and agree thought doesn't follow or have properties of energy. Movement however can't be associated with thought. Everything within every aspect of the entire universe moves. Motion is not only going on but necessary. Without motion, no big-bang, no expansion, no life. I think motion is actually a key to life, universe, and reality. I certainly agree more energy cannot be created simply because Universe cannot exceed itself, sum or otherwise, no person has such power. Obviously there is more then energy or more to it in a larger context.



Time itself may be movement.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually was wondering. Do we have any science majors who can confirm science does say thought doesn't follow the laws of physic, laws of thermal dynamics. I just remember reading this a while back. I'd be interested in confirming this.

Yes that would be interesting to know. Time is movement but time is seen by some as an illusion. Maybe movement is an illusion too. The big bang theory could be the explosion that came from the nothingness (the absolute) into being something - the illusion (consciousness, God, energy, now, time, space, beingness, I am) from there consciousness fell into two parts conscious and unconscious, this and that, up and down, good and bad, past and future and so on.

[Shabby]

Xenoglossis (glossolalia)
There was a time, perhaps before time itself, when man communicated with other than words, yet he was understood perfectly. He communicated in the language of spirit – let’s call it original speech. Original speech, rather than being an intellectual abstraction, is the language of ideas in which that which is uttered empowers the thing that is spoken of. In spirit, to speak of a thing is to vivify it. (In the beginning was the word.) To hold something in thought is to actualize it.

True Winepenny...and welcome to the forum : )

[Stillness_Speaks]

Movement however can't be associated with thought. Everything within every aspect of the entire universe moves. Motion is not only going on but necessary. [QUOTE=lemex]
Sorry, but I can not follow the logic :confused: Are thoughts excluded from the Universe? Ok, let us say that thoughts have no energy but they can move energy as stated. What exactly is "moving energy"? What happens? I have never heard of it. I can not get a grip of this, sorry for the strange questions. But it is very vague imo. A thought (without energy) somehow triggers some resting form of energy that suddenly starts to move? Is that not creating new energy (which can not be done?), a kinetic energy (comes from where?) that merge together with the energy that is supposed to be moved?

[QUOTE=lemex]I think motion is actually a key to life, universe, and reality. Yes, that is what I have heard too :smile:

[Shabby]

[QUOTE=lemex]Movement however can't be associated with thought. Everything within every aspect of the entire universe moves. Motion is not only going on but necessary. [QUOTE=lemex]
Sorry, but I can not follow the logic :confused: Are thoughts excluded from the Universe? Ok, let us say that thoughts have no energy but they can move energy as stated. What exactly is "moving energy"? What happens? I have never heard of it. I can not get a grip of this, sorry for the strange questions. But it is very vague imo. A thought (without energy) somehow triggers some resting form of energy that suddenly starts to move? Is that not creating new energy (which can not be done?), a kinetic energy (comes from where?) that merge together with the energy that is supposed to be moved?

Yes, that is what I have heard too :smile:

Those are some great questions and the same I ask myself Stillness-Speaks. I am trying to bring the scientific together with the spiritual as I do believe it is possible but I am still missing a link...therefore the thread : )

You may think that energy is thought but you don't believe energy can be created right? So if energy can not be created...then what happens when I take thought or think a lot? I must be creating more energy would be the logical conclusion, but since energy can not be created or destroyed....one must come to the conclusion that energy is not thought.

[Humm]

Energy is a difficult concept to understand.

Energy is not a 'thing', per se.

When you go and drive your car, can you be said to be creating energy? No, because it is true that energy is not created, but obviously you are doing something, because you are driving your car.

Energy, actually, is more of a process. What energy really is, in practical terms, is Potential for change. When you buy a gallon of gas for your car, you are not buying a gallon of 'energy', you are buying the gas for the energy released by burning it in a machine made especially for harnessing it - your car. When your car burns the gas, the car utilizes the energy to change your location from point A to point B.

This definition of energy is a conceptual construct which conveniently expresses the relationship we humans have with certain materials in how they assist us in accomplishing certain tasks.

Are thoughts energy? Well, I think it is possible to look at thoughts that way. Are thoughts a conduit for change? I think so.

[Xan]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more.

Everything is energy.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed... it only changes form.

More awareness generates more energy, in what you are aware of.


Xan

[Humm]

Everything is energy.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed... it only changes form.

More awareness generates more energy, in what you are aware of.


Xan
I like that! :smile:

[nightowl]

Shabby - Aren’t thoughts neurons bouncing around in your brain? And isn’t the movement of neuron’s along their pathways, energy? It all seems like a mini explosion of cosmic energy only on an individual human scale.

Blackraven

Yes I agree with this blackraven, thoughts are part of the process of the mind, body and spirit, the thoughts are a creation of the generation process of the body. Chemical reacting to chemical reaction generating energy...

[Xan]

p.s. Energy is movement. Thoughts are always moving.


Xan

[God-Like]

Hi Guys .

Thoughts are expressions of the mind created from / out of consciousness .

x daz x

[Bluegreen]

According to Seth:

"The human race is a stage through which various forms of consciousness travel....Yours is a training system for emerging consciousness ... you must first learn to handle energy and see through physical materialization, the concrete result of thought and emotion."

"In your system of three-dimensional reality you are learning about mental energy (also called thought energy or psychic energy) and how to use it."

[rsingh]

Originally posted by Shabby
I am a witness to God's creation of perfection. It is a state of Grace rather than of force...as I understand that I of my own self can not add anything to that which God has already created (perfection).

Hi Shabby

True, God's creation has already happened - moving from past to future in perfect manner. I am just an observer of it. I cannot add anything to it.

[rsingh]

Originally posted by Stillness Speaks
Ok. But this is already shown in quantum physics and modern science, that thoughts are energy? More knowledge about this anyone? About the video, as I see it, less thoughts-less energy. Maybe the kids could have these kind of tools in school later on.

Some words from a non-scientist in interview:

ECKHART TOLLE : Yes. So all these negative remnants of negative emotions, they become, they accumulate in the body. And then together they form what I call, because, now, we need to realize that any emotion that you have is a form of energy. That's acceptable, I think, to most people. Just as every thought you have is a form of energy.

OPRAH : Right.

ECKHART TOLLE : Every thought is energy, so there's nothing spooky about that. So when we say, when I say that the pain-body can be considered almost an entity in its own right that lives in you, some people find that's a little spooky, but all that I'm trying to say is here that it's an energy form.

Hi Stillness Speaks

True, thought if form and form is an energy. Thought is movement and movement is an energy.

Consciousness is still and it is not an energy.

[Shabby]

Everything is energy.

Energy is neither created nor destroyed... it only changes form.

More awareness generates more energy, in what you are aware of.


Xan

Yes everything is energy....everything you perceive with your senses. Turn your senses off.... where did energy go? What if everything you perceived was the opposite of what is real?

[Bluegreen]

Hi Stillness Speaks

True, thought if form and form is an energy. Thought is movement and movement is an energy.

Consciousness is still and it is not an energy.

Rsingh, what makes you think that consciousness is still and is not an energy? The consciousness that people call God is energy.

Or as Seth explains it:
"Its [All That Is] energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls."

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Hi Stillness Speaks

True, thought if form and form is an energy. Thought is movement and movement is an energy.

Consciousness is still and it is not an energy.
It is my understanding, Consciousness is not separate from 'energy', and you are not separate from energy.. movement is an effect of energy, and is energy.. Thought is both energy and force, a rare and creative combination..

Be well..

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

thinking about thinking leads to thinking about thinking , that's what I think, or at least that's what I think I'm thinking .

[Shabby]

According to Seth:

I don't see what Seth (who ever that is : ) is saying to be in contradiction with my theory that energy is a force that can be used to create the physical appearance of things. But it does not answer the question....if we do not create through thought...what is?

[Shabby]

p.s. Energy is movement. Thoughts are always moving.


Xan

Yes...I agree. Thoughts are movement but have you ever experienced silence of the mind Xan?

[Shabby]

Hi Guys .

Thoughts are expressions of the mind created from / out of consciousness .

x daz x

Yes, I agree Gods and what is beyond consciousness and how do we get there?

[Shabby]

Rsingh, what makes you think that consciousness is still and is not an energy? The consciousness that people call God is energy.

Or as Seth explains it:
"Its [All That Is] energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls."

Bluegreen here Seth actually states that God/Consiousness/All that IS is not energy.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Greetings..


It is my understanding, Consciousness is not separate from 'energy', and you are not separate from energy.. movement is an effect of energy, and is energy.. Thought is both energy and force, a rare and creative combination..

Be well..
that makes sense. energy moves and moves things. consciousness is thought-energy(maybe think of it as potential energy) that creates thoughts (maybe think of them as kinetic energy) that have motion and can induce effect upon specetime , like creating physical energy and matter , or manipulating it .

DS

[sound]

Bluegreen here Seth actually states that God/Consiousness/All that IS is not energy.
I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but I cant see where Seth states that Shabby?

[Neville]

Wondering if Reiki, Prayers,Spells,Wishes, LOA is energetic in its nature because they involve both thought and intent. Is there a point at which thought becomes energy,? In a Dream I ran, I appeared to be expending physical energy in the dream, but perhaps it was but subconscious thought giving the impression that I was expending energy, I woke up feeling tired after my running in the dream.

Perhaps it is not a certainty that thought is not energy. I don't know. I certainly would not be so bold as to say thought was not energy especially in the field of psychokinesis . Because this demonstrates that if thought is not energy , there is clearly a point at which thought becomes energy.

Interestingly some Artisans pour all their energy into their craft while others might say they devoted all their thought into their craft. I guess it's how we see a thing ,again. Parking in a Multi Storey Car Park can be difficult on so many different levels.

[Shabby]

that makes sense. energy moves and moves things. consciousness is thought-energy(maybe think of it as potential energy) that creates thoughts (maybe think of them as kinetic energy) that have motion and can induce effect upon specetime , like creating physical energy and matter , or manipulating it .

DS

Yes, I can see all that, but we are talking about the physical realm only. Are we physical beings limited to our thoughts?

[Quagmire]

Yes, I can see all that, but we are talking about the physical realm only. Are we physical beings limited to our thoughts?

Is there even such a thing as a physical realm? the more I learn the more I doubt it. The only difference I see is in the density of matter, which effect the amount of energy used to form something out of mere thought.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Is there even such a thing as a physical realm? the more I learn the less I doubt it. The only difference I see is in the density of matter, which effect the amount of energy used to form something out of mere thought.
It's not a 'realm', it's just the current state of our self-exploration..

Be well..

[Quagmire]

LAST EDIT: Ignore this I can't really collect my thoughts here... my imagination is someplace else :hug2: peace

[rsingh]

When you do not think, what happens then? There is no movement, but you are still there. This awareness which is still is consciousness. Actually when consciousness is conscious of itself the consciousness disappears too. Then there is nothing which is still. Consciousness appears due to division of nothingness into a subject who is aware and awareness of the subject.

[Shabby]

I'm not the brightest bulb in the chandelier but I cant see where Seth states that Shabby?

Hey Sound,

The quote from Seth reads:
"Its [All That Is] energy is so unbelievable that it does indeed form all universes; and because its energy is within and behind all universes, fields and systems, it is indeed aware of each sparrow that falls, for it is each sparrow that falls."

It's energy means it is a separate entity. "It's" Who's energy???
If Seth meant that Energy was God/Consciousness/The Absolute then he would have said "Energy is so unbelievable........
Do you see it now?

[Quagmire]

It's not a 'realm', it's just the current state of our self-exploration..


Found my head and have to ask why? if we mean the same thing, then why can it not be a realm. I do not come into your house and label your stuff :wink: if I like to call a television "The sound and picture box" is it not still the same thing. Potato potato

[Xan]

Shabby: Yes everything is energy....everything you perceive with your senses. Turn your senses off.... where did energy go? What if everything you perceived was the opposite of what is real?

rsingh: When you do not think, what happens then? There is no movement, but you are still there.


What do you experience beyond thought and the physical senses?
What subtle feelings and energies do you notice then?
Do you have to define them in order to be aware of/in them?


Xan

[sound]

Hi again Shabby :)
Yes i understand what you are saying and thanks for explaining ... I likened it to saying .... 'Its [the flower] scent is so intoxicating it seems I am experiencing the whole universe through its existence' ... without every aspect of the flower, such as its bud, sepal, petals, stigma, ovule, its scent and its nectar etc, each other aspect would not exist ...

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Yes, I can see all that, but we are talking about the physical realm only. Are we physical beings limited to our thoughts?

oh, physical realm only.... :icon_eek:

No, I think all our physical aspects make up our physical self ; we need neurophysiology , and the other physiologies :wink: to have a functioning whole . where does the line between conscious choice and autonomous function get drawn in the realm of the millions of neurons in our noggins?.
which ones are controlled by thought and which by subconscious programming or something(s) other than thought ?. I don't know (but that sounds like another barrel of monkeys ).

I guess I'd have to answer that (the way I see it) we are not just physical beings , but everybody here thinks that too, so I don't understand the reason for that exact question "are we physical beings limited to our thoughts ?" , unless it's just an exercise in discussion .

I think we exist in an overlapping continuum of dimensions and that the physical aspects are not what defines us , maybe not even in the physical realm . We are like an interface between the physical and non-physical realms ; we have feet in both realms . I see thought as having a physical component (neurons firing ) and a non-physical component , which would be consciousness, which I see as having potential to act in the physical dimension .

Think about lifting your hand.... where does that idea come from ? The command to lift the hand is the neurons firing to activate nerves and muscles, but what is the idea behind it?. Since most of us have had some sort of O.B.E.or other, ot seems safe to assume that we might agree that
thought , or a sense of self , can exist ouside the body , so that pretty much tells us that ideas can come from somewhere other than our physical brain. I think that each time we tell our body to do something , we are generating a non-physical thought that interacts with the physical system of brain and body in a way that is effectively 'mind over matter' . It always works because our consciousness is wired to our bodies . Not hardwired , but maybe something more like softwired . Some scientists would tell you that our sense of self is a function of brain chemistry, and maybe that's not far off base at all . Our sense of separate self may be just that , while the consciousness that resides behind the curtain, and behind everything in the universe for that matter , just is . Universal consciousness would be the conscious life force that exists independent of biology , but can animate biological systems as long as those systems have all their parts in working order .... an outrageously miraculous sort of circumstance, when you think about it .

Even in our bodies , I see us as that aspect of the universe that is conscious but not dependent on physical component , so I'd have to say my answer is 'no ' :cool: .

[Shabby]

When you do not think, what happens then? There is no movement, but you are still there. This awareness which is still is consciousness. Actually when consciousness is conscious of itself the consciousness disappears too. Then there is nothing which is still. Consciousness appears due to division of nothingness into a subject who is aware and awareness of the subject.

Yes Rsingh...that it my understanding also. Therefore I don't call Consciousness the absolute...the absolute is nothingness...silence.

[Shabby]

Hi again Shabby :)
Yes i understand what you are saying and thanks for explaining ... I likened it to saying .... 'Its [the flower] scent is so intoxicating it seems I am experiencing the whole universe through its existence' ... without every aspect of the flower, such as its bud, sepal, petals, stigma, ovule, its scent and its nectar etc, each other aspect would not exist ...

Yes Sound that is how I see it too : )

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Found my head and have to ask why? if we mean the same thing, then why can it not be a realm. I do not come into your house and label your stuff :wink: if I like to call a television "The sound and picture box" is it not still the same thing. Potato potato
Hi Bjoorka: It's up to you, if the commonly used meaning of 'realm' suits your intended communication, enjoy..
A realm ( /ˈrɛlm/) is a community or territory over which a sovereign rules; it is commonly used to describe a kingdom or other monarchical or dynastic state.

Be well..

[Shabby]

Shabby: Yes everything is energy....everything you perceive with your senses. Turn your senses off.... where did energy go? What if everything you perceived was the opposite of what is real?

rsingh: When you do not think, what happens then? There is no movement, but you are still there.


What do you experience beyond thought and the physical senses?
What subtle feelings and energies do you notice then?
Do you have to define them in order to be aware of/in them?


Xan

You can't really experience anything beyond thought...to be beyond thought there is only silence and even that is not completely true....it's more like no nameness LOL I think I am making up words again. When you say Energy is everything and I agree, then that everything had to come from something. Something on it's own can not exist but that whence it came can.

[Shabby]

Greetings..


It's not a 'realm', it's just the current state of our self-exploration..

Be well..

I don't see anything wrong with calling this existence in which we appear as humans a realm. "State" is just the perspective looking from "being".....where as realm is looking from "space". It's like grass in the field.

[Xan]

Yes...I agree. Thoughts are movement but have you ever experienced silence of the mind Xan?
Yes. Wholly in meditation, and as the context of everything in daily life.


Xan

[Xan]

Shabby: You can't really experience anything beyond thought...

In my experience you can. In fact there's a great deal to discover beyond thought.


When you say Energy is everything and I agree, then that everything had to come from something. Something on it's own can not exist but that whence it came can.

Everything coming from no thing is the great mystery.


Xan

[Xan]

what is beyond consciousness and how do we get there?

If there were something beyond consciousness, how would we know it?


Xan

[Quagmire]

Hi Bjoorka: It's up to you, if the commonly used meaning of 'realm' suits your intended communication, enjoy..


I think we mean the same so why put labels on it. I just used realm in the form as it was written above me, where I understood "physic realm" as a place of physic, no more no less. Im a free spirit so I do not use confined labels... peace be with you :wink:

[Shabby]

Wondering if Reiki, Prayers,Spells,Wishes, LOA is energetic in its nature because they involve both thought and intent. Is there a point at which thought becomes energy,? In a Dream I ran, I appeared to be expending physical energy in the dream, but perhaps it was but subconscious thought giving the impression that I was expending energy, I woke up feeling tired after my running in the dream.

Perhaps it is not a certainty that thought is not energy. I don't know. I certainly would not be so bold as to say thought was not energy especially in the field of psychokinesis . Because this demonstrates that if thought is not energy , there is clearly a point at which thought becomes energy.

Interestingly some Artisans pour all their energy into their craft while others might say they devoted all their thought into their craft. I guess it's how we see a thing ,again. Parking in a Multi Storey Car Park can be difficult on so many different levels.

Reiki, Prayers,Spells,Wishes, LOA and I would include affirmations are all possibilities within the realm of consciousness. As we move toward a "New World" we have the opportunity to ask ourselves how are we creating a separation from that which IS? In my opinion.... as long as we think we are the creators we will continue to create (and experience) a world apart from that which IS.

[Shabby]

Shabby: You can't really experience anything beyond thought...

In my experience you can. In fact there's a great deal to discover beyond thought.


When you say Energy is everything and I agree, then that everything had to come from something. Something on it's own can not exist but that whence it came can.

Everything coming from no thing is the great mystery.


Xan

Beyond thought is nothing...not even an experience. What could you possible experience in the absence of mind? There is neither an observer nor that which is there to be observed.

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

Beyond thought is nothing...not even an experience. What could you possible experience in the absence of mind? There is neither an observer nor that which is there to be observed.

beyond being and non-being , beyond consciousness and non-consciousness...

isn't these something in Buddhism about that ?. Yeah...

beyond nothing and everything ?....
(don't ask me what it is :wink: )

[Shabby]

:fish: [QUOTE=Xan]what is beyond consciousness and how do we get there?

If there were something beyond consciousness, how would we know it?


Xan[/QUOTE

In order to know what is beyond consciousness you have to go beyond mind. "Pop out" Leave the body/mind illusion behind you. Any path you take will get you there...just keep seeking until you find. You will know when you have found. "It" can not be described in words or knowledge....only knowing prevails. Knowing what? Nothing.

[Xan]

Beyond thought is nothing...not even an experience. What could you possible experience in the absence of mind? There is neither an observer nor that which is there to be observed.
Beyond thought there is self-existing empty awareness (a Buddhist term for it). Awareness/Consciousness is how we know there is the thinking mind and the Silence.


Xan

[Xan]

If there were something beyond consciousness, how would we know it?

In order to know what is beyond consciousness you have to go beyond mind. "Pop out" Leave the body/mind illusion behind you. Any path you take will get you there...just keep seeking until you find. You will know when you have found. "It" can not be described in words or knowledge....only knowing prevails. Knowing what? Nothing.

Are you equating consciousness with mind? I remember that for you 'consciousness' and 'awareness' are different in some way. I see them as the same in a continuum.

In my terms, mind is a function of consciousness that learns, interprets perceptions, thinks, feels emotions and communicates.

Consciousness is how we know we exist and what we experience... are aware of within and through the body-mind and beyond it.

Consciousness / awareness is how there is Knowing.


Xan

[Shabby]

There is consciousness, which is how we know there is the thinking mind and the Silence.


Xan

Does consciousness exist in the absence of mind?

[Xan]

Does consciousness exist in the absence of mind?

Of course. We call it The Silence.


Xan

[Shabby]

If there were something beyond consciousness, how would we know it?

In order to know what is beyond consciousness you have to go beyond mind. "Pop out" Leave the body/mind illusion behind you. Any path you take will get you there...just keep seeking until you find. You will know when you have found. "It" can not be described in words or knowledge....only knowing prevails. Knowing what? Nothing.

Are you equating consciousness with mind? I remember that for you 'consciousness' and 'awareness' are different in some way. I see them as the same in a continuum.

In my terms, mind is a function of consciousness that learns, interprets perceptions, thinks, feels emotions and communicates.

Consciousness is how we know we exist and what we experience... are aware of within and through the body-mind and beyond it.

Consciousness / awareness is how there is Knowing.


Xan

Yes I agree Xan this is the essence of I am.

[Shabby]

Does consciousness exist in the absence of mind?

Of course. We call it The Silence.


Xan

O.K. then.....We are saying the same thing : )

[Xan]

O.K. then.....We are saying the same thing : )

I thought so... :smile:


Xan

[athribiristan]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more.

I disagree. We are Source. We are the stillness from which all motions arise.

[athribiristan]

That would mean that if I had no thought energy would cease to exist and that is true for the one that is not taking thought (Guru's) but for everyone else that is still thinking energy is still creating. Thoughts appear in consciousness and when we give attention to them we become one with them and create that which comes to us as a experience. By changing our thoughts we change our experience...but does that mean we are experiencing what really IS? Or are we creating within the illusion an illusion?

What IS is an interaction of waves. Thoughts are waves, which are intrinsicly energetic. Reality, or what IS, is the interaction of all thought...nothing more or less.

There is no illusion...all is illusion. Both are true. Truth lies in paradox...that is why God is the Alpha AND Omega. That is why he is Judgement AND Love. That is why he is the source of 'Good' AND 'Evil'.

[athribiristan]

Another view is that thought is a form of energy that affects other kinds of energy. To much of them (to much energy) and some of them transforms in to another kind of more physical energy - headache :smile:

Only two waves are required for an interaction. The more waves, the more complex the interaction. The more densely packed those waves become, the more 'solid' the resulting interaction is. In other words...I agree with you

[athribiristan]

Yes, I can see it that way too Blackraven.....but what remains is the question what happens outside of the brain when there is no thought? If thoughts create then what IS when there is no thought?

Brains are not Source...spirit is Source. You can turn your brain off but you can't turn your spirit off. Reality isn't going anywhere any time soon.

[athribiristan]

Energy is a difficult concept to understand.

Energy is not a 'thing', per se.

When you go and drive your car, can you be said to be creating energy? No, because it is true that energy is not created, but obviously you are doing something, because you are driving your car.

Energy, actually, is more of a process. What energy really is, in practical terms, is Potential for change. When you buy a gallon of gas for your car, you are not buying a gallon of 'energy', you are buying the gas for the energy released by burning it in a machine made especially for harnessing it - your car. When your car burns the gas, the car utilizes the energy to change your location from point A to point B.

This definition of energy is a conceptual construct which conveniently expresses the relationship we humans have with certain materials in how they assist us in accomplishing certain tasks.

Are thoughts energy? Well, I think it is possible to look at thoughts that way. Are thoughts a conduit for change? I think so.

Each of us are a vibration...spirtually speaking. If we change our vibration we change our interaction with other vibrations. Nothing is created or destroyed in the process...it only appears that way. That is what differentiates us from 'dead' stuff...we can alter our vibration.

[athribiristan]

Yes everything is energy....everything you perceive with your senses. Turn your senses off.... where did energy go? What if everything you perceived was the opposite of what is real?

Energy exists regardless of perception. One is output, the other is input. I can type a letter with my monitor turned off....the letter is still there (though it may be more likely to have errors....lol).

[Riboflavin]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more.
I think this is a fallacy of logic.. because if thoughts didn't have energy in some form they couldn't "move" anything, since movement would require energy of some kind. If thoughts are not themselves energy, then they must at least be a conduit through which energy passes.

[athribiristan]

Shabby: You can't really experience anything beyond thought...

In my experience you can. In fact there's a great deal to discover beyond thought.

In mine as well.

When you say Energy is everything and I agree, then that everything had to come from something. Something on it's own can not exist but that whence it came can.

Everything coming from no thing is the great mystery.

Not a mystery. If nothing is, then all that is left is possibility. If all things are possible, then something will be. Paradox is the source of all Truth. No thing and everything are the same.

Xan

When I was about 20 I had a dream in which I was shot in the head and died. I spent a moment/eternity in the Void and this was revealed to me. Many years later I begin to understand it.

[athribiristan]

Beyond thought is nothing...not even an experience. What could you possible experience in the absence of mind? There is neither an observer nor that which is there to be observed.

I disagree. There is a major hang up here regarding the definition of various words but there is much to experience beyond thought. Again one is input and the other is output. I can receive without sending just as I can send without receiving. I can read this post without responding to it (although I choose not to).

[athribiristan]

Hi Shabby

True, God's creation has already happened - moving from past to future in perfect manner. I am just an observer of it. I cannot add anything to it.

It has already happened from God's perspective, but from ours it is very much still happening. This is free will vs. predestination. The trouble most people have is that they think that only one can be true when in fact they are both true. Here is something I wrote several years ago that addresses this subject:

I'm back from fishing. I have often compared God to a painter, though not in the same way as this email suggests. If God is, by definition, all powerful, then he must exist outside of time. After all, he created time along with everything else. What then would creation look like to God? I imagine it wouldn't be the world of motion and events and cause and effect that we perceive. To God the universe is a finished product from start to finish. The past and the present and the future are meaningless to him. The idea of cause and effect equally so. I struggled with this for some time as it seems to have implications for the idea of freewill. The two ideas would seem to be paradoxical. That the universe can be at once a complete creation and a place where a person can have free will seems impossible. One night on the Bering Sea, while in a paricularly contemplative mood, it occured to me. It is possible if we assume that God exists outside of time.

The idea of free will means that God asked each and every one of us what we wanted him to paint. Such is his power and skill that he was able to take the answers of every being in creation and paint such a perfect creation as this universe. And although God may already know the answer to the question, it falls to us to decide every day: What do we want God to paint? Don't think in terms of color or contrast, but rather in terms of beauty, death, life, good, evil, compassion, cruelty, light, darkness, joy, and dispair, and ask yourself every day, with every thought: What do I want God to paint?

[athribiristan]

Yes, I can see all that, but we are talking about the physical realm only. Are we physical beings limited to our thoughts?

There is no point in considering ONLY the physical. That is for people who are still asleep.

[Stillness_Speaks]

Wondering if Reiki, Prayers,Spells,Wishes, LOA is energetic in its nature because they involve both thought and intent. Is there a point at which thought becomes energy,? In a Dream I ran, I appeared to be expending physical energy in the dream, but perhaps it was but subconscious thought giving the impression that I was expending energy, I woke up feeling tired after my running in the dream.

Perhaps it is not a certainty that thought is not energy. I don't know. I certainly would not be so bold as to say thought was not energy especially in the field of psychokinesis . Because this demonstrates that if thought is not energy , there is clearly a point at which thought becomes energy.

Interestingly some Artisans pour all their energy into their craft while others might say they devoted all their thought into their craft. I guess it's how we see a thing ,again. Parking in a Multi Storey Car Park can be difficult on so many different levels.
Healing energy coming out from the hands can be measured with instruments.

[Stillness_Speaks]

Yes, I can see all that, but we are talking about the physical realm only. Are we physical beings limited to our thoughts?
What in your view is physical and not? Where is the border between physical and non-physical?

[God-Like]

Yes, I agree Gods and what is beyond consciousness and how do we get there?

Hi Shabbs,

what is beyond consciousness

Nothing other than what we are .

how do we get there?

Let go of all attachments that consciousness allows one to be conscious of .

x daz x

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

There is no illusion...all is illusion. Both are true. Truth lies in paradox....

The use of the word 'lies' there , with it's double meaning , either "truth resides in paradox" or "truth decieves in paradox ", is ... well, it's something of a paradox, and I likes me some paradoxes . Well wought, sir ! :D .
DS

Is truth paradox?... is it anything else ? :fish:

[Sangress]

Two things come to mind at the original post.

Are we talking about spiritual energy or the physics version of energy?

Spiritually speaking, I agree that thoughts or awareness isn't energy, although it does affect energy via intent if focused in a specific way.

[Shabby]

Hi Shabbs,

what is beyond consciousness

Nothing other than what we are .

how do we get there?

Let go of all attachments that consciousness allows one to be conscious of .

x daz x

Yes detachment....what a strange thing.

[Gem]

The observation (not the observer) makes a distinction. Primarily it's emptiness or space. Space has constancy and also density... so space is actually 'thing' (though we call it no-thing because it is formless).

The primary distinction is made and space is, but that is complicated to any mindful apparition, because the mind needs more comlex comparisons, ie a lot more thought awareness before it can make defined forms.

There was a book called The Laws of Form which outlined how distinction forms the inner and outer by creating a definer in space (a YOU perhaps), but in recognition that any formal outline is confined by the limits of formal cognition.

The problem that author had was the duality impossibility. One can not define duality because it takes a three part model to do so... for example above and below also require a line as a definer to provide context and the resultant model is threefold; above, line and below.

The interaction between distinct 'things' is energy and in space that energy exists but is 'unquantized' (hehehe I made up that word).

Where the observation comes from... well that's quite thing, but earlier I read it's before thing and no-thing... indeed... but as I say 'no-thing' is actually 'thing' but mind can not make form from one primary distinction.

[Shabby]

Two things come to mind at the original post.

Are we talking about spiritual energy or the physics version of energy?

Spiritually speaking, I agree that thoughts or awareness isn't energy, although it does affect energy via intent if focused in a specific way.

I agree Sangress and I was talking about spiritual energy but maybe it applies to the physics version of energy too.

[Shabby]

The observation (not the observer) makes a distinction. Primarily it's emptiness or space. Space has constancy and also density... so space is actually 'thing' (though we call it no-thing because it is formless).

The primary distinction is made and space is, but that is complicated to any mindful apparition, because the mind needs more comlex comparisons, ie a lot more thought awareness before it can make defined forms.

There was a book called The Laws of Form which outlined how distinction forms the inner and outer by creating a definer in space (a YOU perhaps), but in recognition that any formal outline is confined by the limits of formal cognition.

The problem that author had was the duality impossibility. One can not define duality because it takes a three part model to do so... for example above and below also require a line as a definer to provide context and the resultant model is threefold; above, line and below.

The interaction between distinct 'things' is energy and in space that energy exists but is 'unquantized' (hehehe I made up that word).

Where the observation comes from... well that's quite thing, but earlier I read it's before thing and no-thing... indeed... but as I say 'no-thing' is actually 'thing' but mind can not make form from one primary distinction.

Interesting post Gem. I also have a hard time defining duality as now, past and future are three things too.

[Shabby]

I disagree. We are Source. We are the stillness from which all motions arise.

Are we the motion or the stillness from which motion arises? It's like saying I made a body and I am that body.

[Shabby]

Energy exists regardless of perception. One is output, the other is input. I can type a letter with my monitor turned off....the letter is still there (though it may be more likely to have errors....lol).

The question is not if energy can be perceived or not , but if energy is the absolute. Is energy is "real" and does it exist in the spiritual realm? Annd if you believe it does, what purpose would it have? Energy serves the purpose in the physical realm of manifestation.

[Shabby]

I think this is a fallacy of logic.. because if thoughts didn't have energy in some form they couldn't "move" anything, since movement would require energy of some kind. If thoughts are not themselves energy, then they must at least be a conduit through which energy passes.

Thoughts on their own have no power....it is the attention we give them by believing in them that gives them power. Belief is the conduit....in specific the belief in a separation from God.

[Bluegreen]

I don't see what Seth (who ever that is : ) is saying to be in contradiction with my theory that energy is a force that can be used to create the physical appearance of things. But it does not answer the question....if we do not create through thought...what is?

If you had googled Seth Jane Roberts you would know who he was.

http://www.sethlearningcenter.org/

All I meant to do is point out that according to Seth, earth is where we learn to handle energy and how to create with energy. The circumstances we find ourselves in tell us what we have created.

Seth: What exists physically exists first in thought and feeling. There is no other rule. You have the conscious mind for good reason. You are not at the mercy of unconscious drives unless you consciously acquiesce to them.

Your present feelings and expectations can always be used to check your progress. If you do not like your experience, then you must change the nature of your conscious thoughts and expectations. You must alter the kind of messages that you are sending through your thoughts to your own body, to friends and associates.

[Stillness_Speaks]

Are we the motion or the stillness from which motion arises? It's like saying I made a body and I am that body.
God is in Christ & Christ is in God. Christ is in us & We are in Christ. We are in all things & all things are in us.

[Neville]

Reiki, Prayers,Spells,Wishes, LOA and I would include affirmations are all possibilities within the realm of consciousness. As we move toward a "New World" we have the opportunity to ask ourselves how are we creating a separation from that which IS? In my opinion.... as long as we think we are the creators we will continue to create (and experience) a world apart from that which IS.

Clearly then, It is natural for the visionaries amongst us to desire to create that which is not IS in the hope of , in some way improving or altering it according to how they see things could be made better... God is involved in this natural process of refinement in perpetuity..(I used the word God as a euphamism for creation, source etc)..We are in this big creative process , a part of it , and it seems natural then that we too should participate in this refining process by altering our reality.. Not on a massive scale always.. Could be just a career change, redecorating.. So i agree with your summary very much that we are the creators and will, do continue to create by dint of being an active part of the broader creation. Wheels within Wheels , so to speak.

Any way.. The thing is , as i have already said. If thought is not energy (and I assumed them to be micro electric , neurological processes) There is clearly a point at which , in order to effect the change we inherently and perpetually seek to bring about, there is a point at which thought becomes energy. If the thought is not the energy, it invariably precipitates energy:smile:

[sound]

Great link Bluegreen ... thanks for sharing :)

[Bluegreen]

Great link Bluegreen ... thanks for sharing :)
You are welcome, Sound.

[Shabby]

If you had googled Seth Jane Roberts you would know who he was.

http://www.sethlearningcenter.org/

All I meant to do is point out that according to Seth, earth is where we learn to handle energy and how to create with energy. The circumstances we find ourselves in tell us what we have created.

If you would have given me the whole name I may have googled him, but you spoke of Seth only...he could have been someone on this forum...right?

[Shabby]

God is in Christ & Christ is in God. Christ is in us & We are in Christ. We are in all things & all things are in us.

Is Christ the body? The way I see it Jesus was the body, Christ was his realization of union with the father.

[God-Like]

Does consciousness exist in the absence of mind?

Hi Shabbs,

I understand that consciousness came in to being the moment our mindful universe began .

I therefore see no need for consciousness to exist without mind being present .

Many relate consciousness as the mind .

x daz x

[Sundialed]

I thought about how awesome Life is, that gave me energy?

[Sundialed]

Hi Shabbs,

I understand that consciousness came in to being the moment our mindful universe began .

I therefore see no need for consciousness to exist without mind being present .

Many relate consciousness as the mind .

x daz x

The mindful universe could not have began if there wasn't a consciousness beforehand that created it and thought it through. You can not have thoughts of anything that has not already been thought of before the dawning of material existence. If that is what you are saying, the mindful universe being the material universe. Only the materials have a beginning, as you stated "began" but consciousness/thought has never had a beginning.

Only my perspective.

[athribiristan]

The question is not if energy can be perceived or not , but if energy is the absolute. Is energy is "real" and does it exist in the spiritual realm? Annd if you believe it does, what purpose would it have? Energy serves the purpose in the physical realm of manifestation.

There is no difference between spiritual and physical. They merely represent different frequencies of vibration. Just as light has a higher vibration than sound, spirit has a higher vibration than physicality. Other than that they are exactly the same. They follow the same laws, they interact in the same way. Everything is vibration, which IS energy. There IS nothing else.

Incidentally...my answer had nothing to do with whether or not energy can be perceived. I was pointing out that the perception of the energy has nothing to do with its existence. In other words...it exists whether or not it is perceived.

[Shabby]

Clearly then, It is natural for the visionaries amongst us to desire to create that which is not IS in the hope of , in some way improving or altering it according to how they see things could be made better... God is involved in this natural process of refinement in perpetuity..(I used the word God as a euphamism for creation, source etc)..We are in this big creative process , a part of it , and it seems natural then that we too should participate in this refining process by altering our reality.. Not on a massive scale always.. Could be just a career change, redecorating.. So i agree with your summary very much that we are the creators and will, do continue to create by dint of being an active part of the broader creation. Wheels within Wheels , so to speak.

Any way.. The thing is , as i have already said. If thought is not energy (and I assumed them to be micro electric , neurological processes) There is clearly a point at which , in order to effect the change we inherently and perpetually seek to bring about, there is a point at which thought becomes energy. If the thought is not the energy, it invariably precipitates energy:smile:

There is no Judgment on creating in this world...I have done my fair share...believe me. But I realize today that I could never have found in this world what I was truly seeking.

Let's just take LOA. First of all why would I believe in a Guru (Abraham) outside of me? Then there is this belief that the universe could give us something....which is like praying to a God outside of us....same thing different name.

[Stillness_Speaks]

Is Christ the body? The way I see it Jesus was the body, Christ was his realization of union with the father.

My point was to examine if this really is so crazy to say:
"It's like saying I made a body and I am that body."
No separation between creator or creation, no separation between spiritual and non-spiritual. All is energy in different forms. Also silence and stillness. No separation between energies. All working together. Interacting. Oneness.

[athribiristan]

I disagree. We are Source. We are the stillness from which all motions arise.


Are we the motion or the stillness from which motion arises? It's like saying I made a body and I am that body.

Maybe you should read that again....I just answered that question. And no, its not like saying that at all.

[Shabby]

There is no difference between spiritual and physical. They merely represent different frequencies of vibration. Just as light has a higher vibration than sound, spirit has a higher vibration than physicality. Other than that they are exactly the same. They follow the same laws, they interact in the same way. Everything is vibration, which IS energy. There IS nothing else.

Incidentally...my answer had nothing to do with whether or not energy can be perceived. I was pointing out that the perception of the energy has nothing to do with its existence. In other words...it exists whether or not it is perceived.

I got what you were pointing to. It is a belief that there is no difference between the physical and the spiritual as I believe there is. How do you know what laws spirit follows? Spirit can not be perceived by any instrument, measured or pinned down to anything in particular. So what you are perceiving, measuring or pinning down is not spirit. Maybe energy?

[Bluegreen]

If you would have given me the whole name I may have googled him, but you spoke of Seth only...he could have been someone on this forum...right?

In almost all the posts in which I mentioned "Seth" I added "Jane Roberts." I assume that you have not seen them.
Had you googled only "Seth," you could have found him among the other references. Did you really think that Seth was a member of SF?

[Shabby]

Maybe you should read that again....I just answered that question. And no, its not like saying that at all.

Maybe you should read what you are disagreeing with again.

You are assuming you are the body...which is energy. I believe you are not the body nor the mind but spirit.

[Shabby]

In almost all the posts in which I mentioned "Seth" I added "Jane Roberts." I assume that you have not seen them.
Had you googled only "Seth," you could have found him among the other references. Did you really think that Seth was a member of SF?

I did not give it much thought and I did not see Jane Roberts in addition to Seth...as my focus was on the content rather the source.

[athribiristan]

God is in Christ & Christ is in God. Christ is in us & We are in Christ. We are in all things & all things are in us.


Is Christ the body? The way I see it Jesus was the body, Christ was his realization of union with the father.

Again I think you should re-read that....who said Christ was the body?

[God-Like]

The mindful universe could not have began if there wasn't a consciousness beforehand that created it and thought it through. You can not have thoughts of anything that has not already been thought of before the dawning of material existence. If that is what you are saying, the mindful universe being the material universe. Only the materials have a beginning, as you stated "began" but consciousness/thought has never had a beginning.

Only my perspective.

Hi S.S.

Thanks for your thoughts .

What we are created consciousness so that the self can be known .

We are therefore self conscious within mind .

There was no-one to be conscious and no-thing to be conscious of prior to our mindful creation .

To say that consciousness created our mindful universe is like saying there is mind prior to mind .

x daz x

[Bluegreen]

Maybe you should read what you are disagreeing with again.

You are assuming you are the body...which is energy. I believe you are not the body nor the mind but spirit.

May I ask what you are doing here in a body with a mind or should I simply ignore you because you do not exist in 3D?

[Shabby]

My point was to examine if this really is so crazy to say:
"It's like saying I made a body and I am that body."
No separation between creator or creation, no separation between spiritual and non-spiritual. All is energy in different forms. Also silence and stillness. No separation between energies. All working together. Interacting. Oneness.

O.K. I see from where you are coming now. Thanks for explaining. I see it a bit different. From a witnessing "state" I am neither the creator nor the creation. I don't see silence or stillness as all possibilities...it is the absence of everything... even possibilities. In the realm of consciousness are all possibilities and energy serves the purpose of manifesting those possibilities. Oneness to me is realizing myself to be one with Spirit.

[Shabby]

May I ask what you are doing here in a body with a mind or should I simply ignore you because you do not exist in 3D?

How can you say I don't exist? I am sorry if I ticked you off in any way. That was not my intention.

[athribiristan]

Maybe you should read what you are disagreeing with again.

You are assuming you are the body...which is energy. I believe you are not the body nor the mind but spirit.

No, I'm not asssuming that at all....quite the opposite in fact:

I disagree. We are Source. We are the stillness from which all motions arise.

Where is that assumption? Clearly the body is not Source. How do you see that I am saying I am the body? Clearly the body is not stillness; you yourself said the body is energy. Energy is not still. How can you say that the body is energy and still conclude that by saying we are stillness, I am referring to the body?

[Sundialed]

Hi S.S.

Thanks for your thoughts .

What we are created consciousness so that the self can be known .

We are therefore self conscious within mind .

There was no-one to be conscious and no-thing to be conscious of prior to our mindful creation .

To say that consciousness created our mindful universe is like saying there is mind prior to mind .

x daz x

Although I disagree, I am glad that I got to see your perspective.

Thank you.

[Shabby]

No, I'm not asssuming that at all....quite the opposite in fact:



Where is that assumption? Clearly the body is not Source. How do you see that I am saying I am the body? Clearly the body is not stillness; you yourself said the body is energy. Energy is not still. How can you say that the body is energy and still conclude that by saying we are stillness, I am referring to the body?

If energy is matter or thought and you say you are energy...my conclusion was that you believe you are the body and the mind.

[Shabby]

It's kind of funny (but not really) how people have not changed in over 2000 years. I think of the thread on the beliefs of others and also the thread on Heretics. Now I come with a different belief....not saying anyone else' s is wrong just stating my belief and some would like to burn me on a stake. Why?

If I offended anyone please forgive me.

[God-Like]

Although I disagree, I am glad that I got to see your perspective.

Thank you.

Thanks for conversing with me S.S . (First time I think) . :hug3:

x daz x

[Stillness_Speaks]

From a witnessing "state" I am neither the creator nor the creation. So, you are just pure very high frequency energy? Ok, I give up, just joking. Sort of :wink:

"When spirit is the directing energy in life, then the desires and impulses are balanced and harmonious and fulfill their natural function as expressions of the positive, creative, and constructive nature of the universe" (Ni, Hua-Ching - Entering the Tao)

[CuriousSnowflake]

Thoughts are not Energy....thoughts move energy. You can not create more energy by thinking more.

Ever play around with an analog synthesizer? You know, the kind with all the knobs and levers and such that allow you to tweak the sounds all you want? Thoughts are like the sounds, and the mind is like the synthesizer. You're right, energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change. Thoughts are energy, because everything is energy, but thinking doesn't make more energy. Thinking merely tweaks the wavelengths of your thoughts, just like the knobs and levers tweak the sounds coming from the synthesizer. No new energy, just changes to what is already there.

CS

[Bluegreen]

I believe you are not the body nor the mind but spirit.

I am not ticked off but when I read a sentence like this--and there are many such on SF--it makes me want to ask the question I did.

I see spirit, soul, our manifestations in different realms as well as in 3D as one whole. Therefore I wondered if you are not the body nor the mind what are you doing here or are you are only a mirage?

[Shabby]

So, you are just pure very high frequency energy? Ok, I give up, just joking. Sort of :wink:

"When spirit is the directing energy in life, then the desires and impulses are balanced and harmonious and fulfill their natural function as expressions of the positive, creative, and constructive nature of the universe" (Ni, Hua-Ching - Entering the Tao)


I am spirit not more not less.

[Shabby]

I am not ticked off but when I read a sentence like this--and there are many such on SF--it makes me want to ask the question I did.

I see spirit, soul, our manifestations in different realms as well as in 3D as one whole. Therefore I wondered if you are not the body nor the mind what are you doing here or are you are only a mirage?

There is a body and there is a mind...I am not the body nor the mind. It is the identification as the body and mind that causes suffering.

[Shabby]

Ever play around with an analog synthesizer? You know, the kind with all the knobs and levers and such that allow you to tweak the sounds all you want? Thoughts are like the sounds, and the mind is like the synthesizer. You're right, energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change. Thoughts are energy, because everything is energy, but thinking doesn't make more energy. Thinking merely tweaks the wavelengths of your thoughts, just like the knobs and levers tweak the sounds coming from the synthesizer. No new energy, just changes to what is already there.

CS

Great analogy CuriousSnowflake. It's just that I see thought actually separating us from what is really already there. Thought breaks the silence. Thought is what separates us from God..being one.

Think about it. The only time we think is when we don't know. When you first learn to drive a car you have to think about it, but once you know how to drive a car.... you drive on "automatic pilot".

Jesus taught to take no thought...for what we shall eat or wear nor for tomorrow for those things will be taken care of. If we took no thought we would "drive on automatic" and we would experience that which really IS and not what we believe there is.

[Bluegreen]

There is a body and there is a mind...I am not the body nor the mind. It is the identification as the body and mind that causes suffering.

The body and mind I see as expressions of the soul. It is not identifying with the body and mind that causes suffering but how we live life. In other words, our choices, our thoughts, our desires, our expectations are what bring about either joyful or dire circumstances.
Apart from learning to handle energy and how to create with energy, we are also here to learn to develop our will power without which we cannot create.

I do not think that we can avoid or skip learning experiences whether in a physical body on earth or elsewhere.

[Stillness_Speaks]

It's kind of funny (but not really) how people have not changed in over 2000 years. I think of the thread on the beliefs of others and also the thread on Heretics. Now I come with a different belief....not saying anyone else' s is wrong just stating my belief and some would like to burn me on a stake. Why?

If I offended anyone please forgive me.

I only speak for myself and have no desire at all to burn you at the stake, rather the opposite. I like when I hit something that makes me question my own beliefs. "Thoughts are not energy" made me question my whole world view. Now I am off to read the thread - the beliefs of others :smile:

[athribiristan]

I got what you were pointing to. It is a belief that there is no difference between the physical and the spiritual as I believe there is. How do you know what laws spirit follows? Spirit can not be perceived by any instrument, measured or pinned down to anything in particular. So what you are perceiving, measuring or pinning down is not spirit. Maybe energy?

Spirit can be perceived by Spirit. I am Spirit. So naturally I can perceive Spirit. There is no need for an instrument. Spirit IS energy because everything is energy. It is the illusion of separateness that prevents us from perceiving Spirit. Once you realize that all is One you cannot help but perceive Spirit.

[athribiristan]

If energy is matter or thought and you say you are energy...my conclusion was that you believe you are the body and the mind.

What I am saying is that EVERYTHING is energy. There is nothing that exists that is not energy. Mind, Body, Spirit, Matter, Thought. ALL is energy.

[Shabby]

The body and mind I see as expressions of the soul. It is not identifying with the body and mind that causes suffering but how we live life. In other words, our choices, our thoughts, our desires, our expectations are what bring about either joyful or dire circumstances.
Apart from learning to handle energy and how to create with energy, we are also here to learn to develop our will power without which we cannot create.

I do not think that we can avoid or skip learning experiences whether in a physical body on earth or elsewhere.

If the body and mind are expressions of the soul...not saying it is or it is not....who are you? The soul or the expression of the soul?

I don't believe we are here to learn anything but I accept that that is your belief.

[Shabby]

What I am saying is that EVERYTHING is energy. There is nothing that exists that is not energy. Mind, Body, Spirit, Matter, Thought. ALL is energy.

You are stating that as a fact...but that is YOUR belief. Do you realize that?

[Shabby]

Spirit can be perceived by Spirit. I am Spirit. So naturally I can perceive Spirit. There is no need for an instrument. Spirit IS energy because everything is energy. It is the illusion of separateness that prevents us from perceiving Spirit. Once you realize that all is One you cannot help but perceive Spirit.


To perceive anything you have to be separated from it. With other words how do you perceive you are spirit?

I agree that you are spirit but unless you know it by being "it"...it is only knowledge.

[Neville]

There is no Judgment on creating in this world...I have done my fair share...believe me. But I realize today that I could never have found in this world what I was truly seeking.

That's the real question Shabby, The 64,000 Dollar Question,, What am I truly seeking? If the world is incapable of furnishing me with it, Where then is it to be found?

I don't know what I am seeking, I don't even think I know what I am seeking. all I observe is my role in creation careering onwards without any evident rhyme or metre aside from the basic biological species imperative consistent with all life,
Much like creation we refine, inquire, search, build, destroy,rebuild,adapt,change and no sooner has one goal been reached the sights get set elsewhere, Like creation. It's never done, never completed,never finished.

My guess is that all of this is much more to do with the journey as opposed to any given destination.

Sorry for drifting a little in this post from your initial observation.

[Bluegreen]

If the body and mind are expressions of the soul...not saying it is or it is not....who are you? The soul or the expression of the soul?

I don't believe we are here to learn anything but I accept that that is your belief.

I, Henny, am a shoot of my soul which carefully composed my personality and selected parents, environment etc for a particular experience. What I learn during my life as Henny will be assimilated by my soul (mostly things of the spirit). The personality that I am now and those that I have been as well as those in the future are all part of my soul. What do you think happens with all those experiences? Do you think they are/were/will be unnecessary and should be treated as debris?

To say that we do not need to learn anything is the same as saying that there is no purpose to this entire creation and there is!

By the way, Shabby, when you start a thread you should expect people to have differing opinions. Some are able to express them well, others are not. It does not mean they are trying to 'torch' you. And there is nothing you should apologize for.

I have noticed that you think that I am irked or angered by what you post but that is not true. I would think it extremely silly of myself to have those reactions to anything anyone may write on SF.
I do ask questions and I do not always agree.

[Shabby]

That's the real question Shabby, The 64,000 Dollar Question,, What am I truly seeking? If the world is incapable of furnishing me with it, Where then is it to be found?

I don't know what I am seeking, I don't even think I know what I am seeking. all I observe is my role in creation careering onwards without any evident rhyme or metre aside from the basic biological species imperative consistent with all life,
Much like creation we refine, inquire, search, build, destroy,rebuild,adapt,change and no sooner has one goal been reached the sights get set elsewhere, Like creation. It's never done, never completed,never finished.

My guess is that all of this is much more to do with the journey as opposed to any given destination.


Sorry for drifting a little in this post from your initial observation.

Hey Neville, don't worry about drifting ...it's all good. So what is up with this $64.000 question. This is the second time I hear about it. I watched a movie yesterday called DMT- The Spiritual Molecule pretty cool stuff and the mentioned the $64.000 question.

I used to think I knew what others were seeking as I thought we were all seeking the same thing....but I am not so sure anymore.

[Shabby]

I, Henny, am a shoot of my soul which carefully composed my personality and selected parents, environment etc for a particular experience. What I learn during my life as Henny will be assimilated by my soul (mostly things of the spirit). The personality that I am now and those that I have been as well as those in the future are all part of my soul. What do you think happens with all those experiences? Do you think they are/were/will be unnecessary and should be treated as debris?

To say that we do not need to learn anything is the same as saying that there is no purpose to this entire creation and there is!

By the way, Shabby, when you start a thread you should expect people to have differing opinions. Some are able to express them well, others are not. It does not mean they are trying to 'torch' you. And there is nothing you should apologize for.

I have noticed that you think that I am irked or angered by what you post but that is not true. I would think it extremely silly of myself to have those reactions to anything anyone may write on SF.
I do ask questions and I do not always agree.

I read your post and acknowledge it.

[athribiristan]

You are stating that as a fact...but that is YOUR belief. Do you realize that?

Yes I do realize that.

[Shabby]

Yes I do realize that.

So one day we will see who is right...LOL Just Kidding : )

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Hey Neville, don't worry about drifting ...it's all good. So what is up with this $64.000 question. This is the second time I hear about it. I watched a movie yesterday called DMT- The Spiritual Molecule pretty cool stuff and the mentioned the $64.000 question.

I used to think I knew what others were seeking as I thought we were all seeking the same thing....but I am not so sure anymore.
The $64K question was the final question on a 1950's game show..

As for seeking, i am not seeking 'something'.. just genuinely curious about my relationship with what 'is happening'..

Be well..

[Shabby]

:fish: :fish: Greetings..


The $64K question was the final question on a 1950's game show..

As for seeking, i am not seeking 'something'.. just genuinely curious about my relationship with what 'is happening'..

Be well..

Thanks for answering the $64.000 question Tzu. I can understand your curiosity as that is kind of where I am too : )

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

:fish: :fish:

Thanks for answering the $64.000 question Tzu. I can understand your curiosity as that is kind of where I am too : )
:smile:

Be well..

[Swami Chihuahuananda]

It used to be a $64,000 question but it's been devalued to only $64.000 due to inflation and the fact that so many people have figured out the answer :cool:

[Shabby]

It used to be a $64,000 question but it's been devalued to only $64.000 due to inflation and the fact that so many people have figured out the answer :cool:

LOL good one Dar...I can see that.

[Xan]

Neville: That's the real question Shabby, The 64,000 Dollar Question... What am I truly seeking?


Another way to ask this is, "What do I really want?"

Not what I want to have but how do I want to experience myself as the theme of my life.

Then there's the question, "When I come to the end of my life and look back, what would I like to see that I grew in the most?"


Xan

[Xan]

I see spirit, soul, our manifestations in different realms as well as in 3D as one whole. Therefore I wondered if you are not the body nor the mind what are you doing here or are you are only a mirage?

I am spirit interacting in this world through the body-mind facade.


Xan

[sound]

Why do you consider it a facade Xan? What is it hiding? Why do you consider it a front?

[Xan]

Kate... In experiencing the endless depth of being that is our essence, the body-mind is clearly just the surface layer.


Xan

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Neville: That's the real question Shabby, The 64,000 Dollar Question...


Another way to ask this is, "What do I really want?"

Not what I want to have but how do I want to experience myself as the theme of my life.

Then there's the question, "When I come to the end of my life and look back, what would I like to see that I grew in the most?"


Xan
It is my understanding that we won't be looking back, and we won't be interested in what we "grew in the most".. that's a bit like keeping score..

As for a 'theme' (as if you couldn't hear this one coming), Clarity.. but, that's less of a 'theme', and more like the function that reveals the choices and
themes that align with who/what you have evolved into..

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Kate... In experiencing the endless depth of being that is our essence, the body-mind is clearly just the surface layer.


Xan
It might be if you believe there is a separation between "essence" and "body-mind", but.. i don't experience a 'difference' between what you refer to as 'essence' and 'body-mind'..

Be well..

[BlueSky]

Without the body-mind, life would be like touching a babies soft skin with gloves on.

[sound]

Kate... In experiencing the endless depth of being that is our essence, the body-mind is clearly just the surface layer.
Xan
I choose not to uphold the belief that it is 'just' a surface layer ... it s nonsensical to minimize different aspects of the same experience. Why give one greater credence than the other ... I wonder how you would view mind/body consciousness if you were perceiving it from a non-physical perspective ... prior to being born into flesh? What you describe as 'the endless depth that is our being' is being 'consciously' realized ... in that respect the body/mind is not the surface layer ... it is an integral part of the whole experience. As has already been questioned, why the separation?

[silent whisper]

She did say she is spirit interacting in this world with mind body. Does it matter if its surface or 2000 leagues under the sea to Xan or us..she is interacting as one with herself. If she wasnt she would probably be on a mountain top, silent and communing with spirit in silence living on air and sunshine...and breathe, with no connection to life beyond that space..

well its always a choice of course...

And I hope you dont mind me speaking your name and cause Xan.

[Shabby]

I choose not to uphold the belief that it is 'just' a surface layer ... it s nonsensical to minimize different aspects of the same experience. Why give one greater credence than the other ... I wonder how you would view mind/body consciousness if you were perceiving it from a non-physical perspective ... prior to being born into flesh? What you describe as 'the endless depth that is our being' is being 'consciously' realized ... in that respect the body/mind is not the surface layer ... it is an integral part of the whole experience. As has already been questioned, why the separation?

I see what you mean Sound....and you are right. Maybe we need to know who we truly are (spirit/God /Consciousness) so that we can have here in this life on earth heaven.

The reason I give my being spirit more value is that this earthy life is temporal, even if I was and will be reincarnated those that are enlightened need not to. That we have a choice at that point leaves me to believe that our real life is not on earth but in spirit.

[athribiristan]

Greetings..


It might be if you believe there is a separation between "essence" and "body-mind", but.. i don't experience a 'difference' between what you refer to as 'essence' and 'body-mind'..

Be well..


I'm with Tzu on this one (well frankly I'm with Tzu on most things...Hi Tzu :wink: ). I don't see any separation here. Its all me. I don't igore my left hand just because I am right-hand dominant.

[sound]

I don't igore my left hand just because I am right-hand dominant.

Yeah thats a more succinct way to say what i was also meaning ....

[Gem]

It's still a distinction between who and what you are.

[Xan]

sound: I choose not to uphold the belief that it is 'just' a surface layer ... it s nonsensical to minimize different aspects of the same experience... why the separation?

I appreciate the questions and concern, Kate.

My skin is the surface layer of my body. It's not separate from the body but I don't think of it as 'me' or as my body.


I wonder how you would view mind/body consciousness if you were perceiving it from a non-physical perspective ... prior to being born into flesh?

This is what I said. From the non-physical / spirit perspective... prior to be born here or in deep meditation... it's apparent to me that the body-mind is just a vehicle for my being/consciousness to interact in this world, and I appreciate it as that.


Many people reporting on NDE's say something like... "I saw my body lying on the operating table and I thought, 'Huh! What's that useless thing?' Then I realized, 'Oh it's my body."

Who is seeing from outside the body... which is useless in death and useful in life?


What you describe as 'the endless depth that is our being' is being 'consciously' realized ... in that respect the body/mind is not the surface layer ... it is an integral part of the whole experience.

It is an integral experience while in this world, but our sojourn here is very short - 70-80 years if we're lucky, whereas our existence as part of the universe is already billions of years old... and eternal as pure spirit.


The idea that the body-mind is not as central to our existence as we have grown up believing can be uncomfortable and even a threat to our identity. And that is why... simply because it's what we grew up believing is 'me'.

As I like to say always there's more to discover. I don't see any end to it.


Xan

[Xan]

Is there a difference between essence and body-mind?

Certainly there's a difference, as there is between my hand and my heart.

This difference doesn't mean separation as the body is one whole.

All forms are expressions of pure formless essence.


Xan

[sound]

My skin is the surface layer of my body. It's not separate from the body but I don't think of it as 'me' or as my body.
Hmm the skin is an organ … the body proper would not survive without it so it is an integral part of your experience in flesh ... in your statement above there you have expressed ownership such as 'my skin' & 'my body' ... you have defined the skin as the surface layer of your body, so yes, in essence, you must think of it as what you identify as 'you' Xan ... which is perfectly natural, and doesnt spell 'over-attachment ...

From the non-physical / spirit perspective... prior to be born here or in deep meditation... it's apparent to me that the body-mind is just a vehicle for my being/consciousness to interact in this world, and I appreciate it as that.
The appreciation is vitally important to the experience … and promoting that is healthy too … my comments are not made through being fixated on the body above and beyond all else ... it is about understanding the connection ...
Many people reporting on NDE's say something like... "I saw my body lying on the operating table and I thought, 'Huh! What's that useless thing?' Then I realized, 'Oh it's my body."
But they are observing that which is still useful … the realization does occur … they make the connection
It is an integral experience while in this world, but our sojourn here is very short - 70-80 years if we're lucky, whereas our existence as part of the universe is already billions of years old... and eternal as pure spirit.
I am not sure length of lifetime has a whole lot to do with the nature of the experience itself …
The idea that the body-mind is not as central to our existence as we have grown up believing can be uncomfortable and even a threat to our identity.
I don’t feel at all threatened by that realization, however I do feel we need to take care not to promote the idea that it is secondary … this is where our focus is at this time.

[athribiristan]

It's still a distinction between who and what you are.

No, its an analogy to demonstrate the commonly held misconception that we are made up of distinct parts.

[Shabby]

I realize today (right now in this very moment...ahh already gone but it was there : ) that we are only talking about paths. One strips everything to come to silence and one includes everything to come to silence.

[CuriousSnowflake]

Great analogy CuriousSnowflake. It's just that I see thought actually separating us from what is really already there. Thought breaks the silence. Thought is what separates us from God..being one.

Think about it. The only time we think is when we don't know. When you first learn to drive a car you have to think about it, but once you know how to drive a car.... you drive on "automatic pilot".

Jesus taught to take no thought...for what we shall eat or wear nor for tomorrow for those things will be taken care of. If we took no thought we would "drive on automatic" and we would experience that which really IS and not what we believe there is.

Thoughts do not inherently separate us, IMHO. Thought is one of the three tools we use to create our reality, the other two being word and deed. Thought is really the starting point; every word, every deed, everything in our experience first began as a thought. The key is that every thought is creative, every thought manifests itself. Thus thought does not separate us, thoughts of separation separate us.

We live in a society which not only teaches us from our very first moment that we are separate, it glorifies this separation as well. Our myths, our stories, our entertainments, our ideals, our laws, our religions, everything holds up the "rugged individualist" as the paragon. Even our stories of love, where one would think Unity might shine through, imply that connection with another is a strain and a struggle against human nature. This separation consciousness pervades everything, coloring our every thought at the unconscious level. And we wonder why the world is in the shape it's in!

Fortunately, there is good news. Separation is not our nature, and at the deepest levels of our consciousness we know this. Like a light held within a clenched fist, some rays slip out through the cracks and edges, no matter how hard you squeeze. We stand at a point where our separation consciousness has the capacity to render us, if not extinct, then at least greatly reduced in population and influence due to our misuse of our planet. We understand this, and a growing number of people are waking up to the realization that, in order to idealize our world, we need to change our thinking.

So thought can and does separate us, but it can also Unify us. And I believe it will.

CS

[CuriousSnowflake]

My guess is that all of this is much more to do with the journey as opposed to any given destination.

Ohh, there is more wisdom in this statement than you know!

CS

[Shabby]

Thoughts do not inherently separate us, IMHO. Thought is one of the three tools we use to create our reality, the other two being word and deed. Thought is really the starting point; every word, every deed, everything in our experience first began as a thought. The key is that every thought is creative, every thought manifests itself. Thus thought does not separate us, thoughts of separation separate us.

We live in a society which not only teaches us from our very first moment that we are separate, it glorifies this separation as well. Our myths, our stories, our entertainments, our ideals, our laws, our religions, everything holds up the "rugged individualist" as the paragon. Even our stories of love, where one would think Unity might shine through, imply that connection with another is a strain and a struggle against human nature. This separation consciousness pervades everything, coloring our every thought at the unconscious level. And we wonder why the world is in the shape it's in!

Fortunately, there is good news. Separation is not our nature, and at the deepest levels of our consciousness we know this. Like a light held within a clenched fist, some rays slip out through the cracks and edges, no matter how hard you squeeze. We stand at a point where our separation consciousness has the capacity to render us, if not extinct, then at least greatly reduced in population and influence due to our misuse of our planet. We understand this, and a growing number of people are waking up to the realization that, in order to idealize our world, we need to change our thinking.

So thought can and does separate us, but it can also Unify us. And I believe it will.

CS

If thought has the power to separate us and unify us we are talking duality. There is no oneness in duality...only silence can bring us together and there we are together... and we are that togetherness.

[CuriousSnowflake]

To say that we do not need to learn anything is the same as saying that there is no purpose to this entire creation and there is!

I do ask questions and I do not always agree.

Well, then, allow me to not agree. :wink:

IMHO, the "life is a school for souls" philosophy (which I adhered to for well over a decade myself) has two flaws which render it illogical. First, in order for there to be learning at the soul level (which is to say, nonphysical), Time would have to be a spiritual constant. Yet Time is a function of the physical only, and in fact cannot exist without the physical. If Time does not and cannot exist for the soul, how can the soul learn?

Second, the most logical concept of the Divine is what I call Oneness. If there is a Divine, then it must be completely unlimited, since for It to have limitations creates the concept of something Unlimited which would, by default, be greater. For something to be truly Unlimited it must be and contain us as well, since for it not would also be a limitation. This means the idea of distinct and truly separate souls must be a perception, not a truth. But the implication of "life as school" is that souls are distinct and separate, otherwise all learning would bleed over into others, technically.

So if there is no time and all is One, what really is the point to life? Experience, not learning. What is it about the perception (not truth, perception) of separateness that is necessary? Without the perception of separateness, experience cannot exist. For example, we can know that we are compassionate, but until we have the opportunity to feel compassion towards another, all we have is a concept. So we must perceive and believe that there is this "other" in order to have the experience of compassion. Thus the perception of separation.

Sorry about jumping in, just my 2 cents.

CS

[CuriousSnowflake]

If thought has the power to separate us and unify us we are talking duality. There is no oneness in duality...only silence can bring us together and there we are together... and we are that togetherness.

To say that there is no duality in Oneness is to place a limitation upon the Unlimited, which is to say impossible. Oneness only has meaning in the space of that which is not One, silence only has value if one has noise to contrast it against. If you are in a place where you prefer to place greater personal value upon Oneness and silence over duality and noise, that is your choice, and it is rendered beautiful by the choice itself. That is, IMHO, the whole point of this wonderful game we call incarnation; looking at All and saying "I am This, not That".

That's one of those fabulously mind-bendy aspects of our existence, that a statement of preference of Unity is an act of separateness, since choice is only possible in the space of two separate possibilities. Even to express a preference for no preferences is a preference in and of itself. I'd say we're damned if we do and damned if we don't, but in fact it's blessings all around, no matter what. :angel8:

CS

[CuriousSnowflake]

Hmm, Tzu, Gem, Xan, WS, Sound, gee, all we need is Phrogs playing devil's advocate and dear old Andrew going on and on about no free will, and hail, hail, the gang would be all here. :D:D:D

CS

[Shabby]

Hmm, Tzu, Gem, Xan, WS, Sound, gee, all we need is Phrogs playing devil's advocate and dear old Andrew going on and on about no free will, and hail, hail, the gang would be all here. :D:D:D

CS

Who's gee???

[Bluegreen]

Well, then, allow me to not agree. :wink:

IMHO, the "life is a school for souls" philosophy (which I adhered to for well over a decade myself) has two flaws which render it illogical. First, in order for there to be learning at the soul level (which is to say, nonphysical), Time would have to be a spiritual constant. Yet Time is a function of the physical only, and in fact cannot exist without the physical. If Time does not and cannot exist for the soul, how can the soul learn? Although linear time exists only in 3D, your statement can only be an assumption until you know what the eternal now in which past, present and future are one, is and how it functions.

Second, the most logical concept of the Divine is what I call Oneness. If there is a Divine, then it must be completely unlimited, since for It to have limitations creates the concept of something Unlimited which would, by default, be greater. For something to be truly Unlimited it must be and contain us as well, since for it not would also be a limitation. No problem with that. It is unlimited in that it holds all possibilities, all potentialities and life is an ongoing realization of potentialities in my opinion. This means the idea of distinct and truly separate souls must be a perception Did I say separate? I think the individuality of the soul is more appropriate. , not a truth. But the implication of "life as school" is that souls are distinct and separate, otherwise all learning would bleed over into others, technically. Souls are distinct and have an individuality of their own in my opinion. I have never come across a source which says otherwise.

So if there is no time and all is One, what really is the point to life? Experience, not learning. You cannot learn without experiencing. Are you saying that all your experiences have gone up in smoke. Pufff, no memories, nothing learned? The body and the personality that are you are...what? Mirages? Superfluous, unnecessary, a fluke? What is it about the perception (not truth, perception) of separateness that is necessary? Without the perception of separateness, experience cannot exist. For example, we can know that we are compassionate, but until we have the opportunity to feel compassion towards another, all we have is a concept. So we must perceive and believe that there is this "other" in order to have the experience of compassion. Thus the perception of separation.

Sorry about jumping in, just my 2 cents.

CS
To tell you the truth, CS, you do not make a lot of sense (must be my brain). On the one hand you seem to be saying that there is no separation, yet on the other you say there must be separation or least the 'perception' of it in order to experience, in your example, compassion.

[TzuJanLi]

The idea that the body-mind is not as central to our existence as we have grown up believing can be uncomfortable and even a threat to our identity. And that is why... simply because it's what we grew up believing is 'me'.

As I like to say always there's more to discover. I don't see any end to it.


Xan
Why is it that you project that condition upon others? I sense that you need that 'condition' to validate your beliefs.. i sense, from others, that there is a large system of 'spiritual believers'.. most religions, and their followers, adhere to some version of an eternal soul, that the 'body-mind' is a temporary experience..

That being said, i agree.. "always there's more to discover. I don't see any end to it."

Be well..

[Xan]

sound: ...in your statement above... you have expressed ownership such as 'my skin' & 'my body' ... you have defined the skin as the surface layer of your body, so yes, in essence, you must think of it as what you identify as 'you' Xan ... which is perfectly natural, and doesnt spell 'over-attachment ...

Well, gee... I also say "my car' but it doesn't mean I identify that as 'me'.


I am not sure length of lifetime has a whole lot to do with the nature of the experience itself …

The nature of awareness in essence is timeless and unboundaried, unlike experiencing as the body-mind.

As for 'our focus'... many people are developing the focus of Wholeness... being aware in pure silent presence as the context and background of daily activities.


I don’t feel at all threatened by that realization, however I do feel we need to take care not to promote the idea that it is secondary … this is where our focus is at this time.

Of course. Where we are in consciousness Is our reality of the moment, and no one is wrong in how they are evolving.

Still... I won't compromise on expressing my certainty that our true nature as awareness in love itself is primary... as the source / origin of the universe, and as the foundation and essence of our being.

I don't hope for anyone to 'believe' this as beliefs are a dime a dozen.

However, it's possible to go so deeply into the Silence that this universal, non-conceptual knowing dawns in one's consciousness.


Xan

[Silver]

Who's gee???
:confused2: :laughing4:

[Gem]

Hmm, Tzu, Gem, Xan, WS, Sound, gee, all we need is Phrogs playing devil's advocate and dear old Andrew going on and on about no free will, and hail, hail, the gang would be all here. :D:D:D

CS

Yeah! Bring back the Phrog!

[Gem]

There is a difference between someone shooting hole in your car and someone blowing your head off, so a body isn't a vehical produced in some factory in Japan.

[Xan]

Still.. if either vehicle is now useless, who remains as you?


Xan

[sound]

Well, gee ... I also say "my car' but it doesn't mean I identify that as 'me'.

Great, now Shabby will think my real name is gee haha ...

Re:your above statement we are expressions of consciousness ... within or without our physical body, which is simply another attribute of consciousness, in my experience lol ...

[Shabby]

Great, now Shabby will think my real name is gee haha ...

Re:your above statement we are expressions of consciousness ... within or without our physical body, which is simply another attribute of consciousness, in my experience lol ...

LOL I was thinking the same thing Sound....you are too funny! Thanks for the laugh : )

[BlueSky]

To me it's pretty clear that if I was born in China or had different parents or been raised in the inner city...that 'me' would be completely different.
There is no 'me' simply means that there is nothing about me that is something I can put a finger on and claim.
Even my body regenerates itself continually and is never the same in any given moment.

James

[Xan]

Great, now Shabby will think my real name is gee haha ...

Re:your above statement we are expressions of consciousness ... within or without our physical body, which is simply another attribute of consciousness, in my experience lol ...
I agree completely.... uh, Ms Gee.


Xan

[TzuJanLi]

The nature of awareness in essence is timeless and unboundaried, unlike experiencing as the body-mind.

As for 'our focus'... many people are developing the focus of Wholeness... being aware in pure silent presence as the context and background of daily activities.

Where we are in consciousness Is our reality of the moment, and no one is wrong in how they are evolving.

Still... I won't compromise on expressing my certainty that our true nature as awareness in love itself is primary... as the source / origin of the universe, and as the foundation and essence of our being.

I don't hope for anyone to 'believe' this as beliefs are a dime a dozen.

However, it's possible to go so deeply into the Silence that this universal, non-conceptual knowing dawns in one's consciousness.


Xan
Even as certain as you are, in the grand scheme of things it is still only a belief.. in the same way my certainty that "awareness in Love itself" is dependent upon a human value system for meaning, is my belief.. it is the radical self-honesty that can admit there is a Great Mystery beyond their knowing, and so can take joy in the discovery and respite from the uncompromising expressions of that knowing..

Be well..

[Gem]

Still.. if either vehicle is now useless, who remains as you?


Xan

Things have to be kept in balance, so you can't reduce the body and mind from how you are in life, but that is popular amongst 'spiritual' people, however, much of the world has no such notions.

Very few people see themselves on a mission, but some do, and these are generally religious zealots and grandly deluded, and take advantage of vunerable people by conforming them to their own beliefs.

[CuriousSnowflake]

Who's gee???

THPPPPPPTTTTTT!!!!:tongue:

CS

[CuriousSnowflake]

Although linear time exists only in 3D, your statement can only be an assumption until you know what the eternal now in which past, present and future are one, is and how it functions.

Let's be honest, we're all grasping at straws here. Everything in spirituality is conjecture based upon experiences which are difficult to express in words, to say the very least. I merely am being logical. In order to learn, there must be things which one does not know, yet if All Is One, that One contains all knowing, so what is there to learn? Learning also requires a time when one knows and a time when one does not know, yet Time does not actually exist. Therefore, IMHO, learning cannot be the true purpose of incarnation.

Souls are distinct and have an individuality of their own in my opinion. I have never come across a source which says otherwise.

Define "source" please. For me, the only source is that which lies within, once I strip as much ego and attachment away as I currently can (like all humans, I am a work in progress). External sources, while often interesting and sometimes inspiring, are merely guideposts I have brought into my experience to point me towards that internal source. The more I look within the more I realize that this idea of "me" is really nothing more than a point of reference, a sensory framework necessary only for the creation of experience.

Of course, I'm not saying you're wrong. We're just talking about two different perspectives on the same thing. For example, the desk I'm sitting at right now is made of wood (composite board, actually, but that's nitpicking) which is made up of various carbohydrate-based structures which are made up of atoms of carbon and oxygen and hydrogen and a few other odds and ends which are made up of protons, neutrons, and electrons which are made up of quarks and leptons... and so on. Each of these, from desk to wood to molecules to atoms to various subatomic particles have certain characteristics. Are any of them more "true" or "right" than the others? No, of course not. The fact that oxygen atoms are in wood does not make those atoms any less oxygen-y. It works the other direction, too. The fact that this desk is sitting in a house in a town in a state in a nation in a continent on a planet in a solar system in a galaxy does not make it any less a desk.

And, in truth, all of it from the galaxies to the bosons are really just energy patterns. All that differs is the scale and structure of the pattern, and all of it is connected, all is really just One Pattern, endlessly shifting and resonating and cancelling. And there are certain patterns that have a special distinctness, that may shift and cycle and merge and divide, yet retain a set appearance and form for a significant period of time. Some even become so distinct that they can shed significant portions of their pattern and then reform them in varying ways. Yet despite their distinctness, they are no more separate from the One Pattern than anything else is. '

So I don't think you're wrong. You've merely chosen a particular point of view because it currently serves you in the creation of your experiences. I've chosen a different point of view. Simple as that.

You cannot learn without experiencing. Are you saying that all your experiences have gone up in smoke. Pufff, no memories, nothing learned? The body and the personality that are you are...what? Mirages? Superfluous, unnecessary, a fluke?

Of course you cannot learn without experiencing, yet they are not the same thing. Learning is a progression, a movement from a state of ignorance to a state of understanding. Experience is timeless, a Now-moment awareness and acknowledgement of what simply IS.

All that ever was, is, ever will be, as well as that which never was, is not, and never can be, all exist (if such a word applies) within the timeless Now within which Oneness resides/Is/Isn't. Therefore "up in smoke" is impossible. Yet there is not a set purpose to life. There is nothing we "have to do", so to speak, no requirements or penalties or proper way of proceeding. There is merely (from our current perspective) What Is, and then we choose to create What Next Will Be through our thoughts, words, and actions, or lack thereof.

So no mirages, no flukes, nothing superfluous, nothing unnecessary. There's just different points of view, and the experience manifested by them.

To tell you the truth, CS, you do not make a lot of sense (must be my brain). On the one hand you seem to be saying that there is no separation, yet on the other you say there must be separation or least the 'perception' of it in order to experience, in your example, compassion.

Yup, you nailed it. I'm saying both, and yes I'm perfectly cognizant of the contradiction. I'm well aware that the places I tend to be and like to go spiritually and philosophically are not places most people enjoy. I'm something of a metaphysical adrenaline junkie, constantly pushing my boundaries, because I truly believe that "God" exists at the end of our comfort zone. Much of how our world is and what many of us would like to change about it exists because of people staying stuck in comfort zones, choosing the easy and safe over the challenging and frightening. I choose not to live such a life.

But that doesn't answer your question. Take a look at what I wrote above about points of view. Separateness is a point of view, but a vital one. It exists (in fact we create it) because experience can only manifest within the space of that which is separate, or at least appears to be. Experience, any kind of it, can only happen if there is a distinction between that which is experienced and that which has the experience. Without the perception of separateness, this cannot happen, and all that is left is a concept, not an experience. One may know themselves to be kind, but until the is an Other towards which one can behave kindly, there cannot be the experience of being kind, only the idea of it. Thus we may all be One, but we must believe ourselves to be separate in order to create our experiences.

Hopefully I've clarified myself and not made your brain hurt too much in the process. :wink:

CS