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AL
02-03-2006, 04:30 PM
Spiritualism is something else.
It seems to me that religion took birth from spirituality.
Indeed, if we look to the world we may even say that, SPIRITUALITYgave birth to RELIGION which gave birth to POLITICS.
Politics uses and abuses religion, and religion CAN use and abuse spirituality and SPIRITUALITY....eh,is the essence.
Perhaps I am questioning religion without spirituality.
I am wondering how others see this, and the effects of religion without spirituality.
As far as I am aware, RELIGION means WAY OF LIFE.
Love Al*

Space_Man
02-03-2006, 10:15 PM
[COLOR=#000000]Well, at the core of it (and to my perception),

DASA
03-03-2006, 09:51 AM
In my humble opinion both Spirituality and Religion are merely labels whose exact meanings will constantly change from person to person, and with culture and time. Some people could take to 'religion' in a very spiritual way, others could follow 'spirituality' as a form of religion.

Once we start judging others by labels then I think we are on a rocky road away from the truth. Each living being in existence is a valued individual with a purpose and we should respect that. If we can acknowledge the divinity within others and strive to see beyond the externals then surely we are on the correct path.

The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle priest, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater.
- Bhagavad Gita 5.18

AL
13-03-2006, 02:50 PM
Meditation is at the heart of most religions(?), even if the souls of that religion(S) don't practise meditation. Monks of various religions meditate, and so is surely considered the highest form of PRACTISE there is in order to-find and know the true self-find and interact with the supreme being-understand what life and the universe is about(even if each answer gives rise to 100 Q's).
Meditation tends more towards spirituality than religion appears to, though,if we are simply going through the motions, then it may be considered religion without spirituality.
If RELIGION is , way of life, then it is the "practise" part of the whole. Practise,principles, or dharna to some. We go through these practises in the hope that there is a result of some sort. The result being a spiritual one, an insight perhaps, a new realisation maybe, a blast of super sensuous bliss, deep deep silence, peace,serenity. Total love and compassion for every being in the universe, deep love and recognition of the divine in terms of relationship, true love and respect for the self.
These are SPIRITUAL experiences which we would hope to gain from our way of life, or, religion. So, religion can help to gain these things, but, on its own, it is dry repetitive ritual or, belief system. Without the spiritual experiences, we are unlikely to be taking benefit. Taking benefit from religion is what it is all about, spiritual benefit for the spiritual self and so others. Without spiritual benefit from our religion, we are more likely to get involved in confrontation with others because of the conflict within our SELF.
Visual visions should not be our aim and object, we can have visions, though they can hold us back even, in the long run. That is not to discount them, but it is not the aim and object, true spirituality is based on the natural virtues of the human soul. It is about CULTIVATING these virtues. If my religion is not cultivating the natural virtues which exist within me, then my religion is not working for me.
There is a spiritual goldmine within each of us,but we need to find a way IN there.We will not find it OUT there.
Meditation of whatever kind allows us to turn the thoughts inwards towards the self,then the SPIRITUAL process can begin.
If your religion does not involve meditation,look again,it may just be that the masses have dropped it from their lives.You can retain your RELIGION while practising form(s) of meditation of a more universal nature.
So,religion should bring spirituality and Spirituality should free the practitioner from the vices and bondage's which cause sorrow in our lives,and bring about transformation,in the self.
Personally,my religion is that of the ONE,my religion is peace,
Al*

pepperi
06-04-2006, 04:38 AM
Spiritualism is something else.
It seems to me that religion took birth from spirituality.
Indeed,if we look to the world we may even say that,SPIRITUALITYgave birth to RELIGION which gave birth to POLITICS.
Politics uses and abuses religion,and religion CAN use and abuse spirituality and SPIRITUALITY....eh,is the essence.
Perhaps I am questioning religion without spirituality.
I am wondering how others see this, and the effects of religion without spirituality.
As far as I am aware,RELIGION means WAY OF LIFE.
Love Al*

To me religion signifies organized knowledge that is followed without question, whereas spirituality tends to question everything. I for example are not a practicing catholic but I am catholic in my own way. :coffee:

feohgoddess
08-04-2006, 01:03 PM
In no way do I mean to offend ANYONE. I do respect religion as long as it isnt being thrown in my face as if my spirituality is wrong, but I do believe that people use religion too often to dictate what others should and need to do, think and live by. I do not think that true spirituality should be linked with guilty, judgement, fear, 'being right and everyone else wrong' or conditioning young children to believe that the religion their parents practice is the only right way to go.

For me, spirituality is about bettering my mind body and soul, w.o trying to sound too cliche`.

I used to think that I had to find the right religion in order to be a good person and always felt uncomfortable and out of place. Now being spiritual and taking care of myself in so many ways that I never though possible and practicing self dicapline w.o a written ritualistic 'must do' agenda makes me not only feel comfortable, but relieved. For me, there are so many forms and links of my spirituality its almost impossible to explain. I do not believe for me or my family that in order to be good we have to follow something that is written, or a congration of like minded people, who put on a face that seems as if they have to strive to be more than human. I cannot live in guilt or fear, or be told what I need to wear or how I hsould think. I am a very loving person, and know right from wrong. I have a concience. I know when I'm being out of line and when I am totally comfortable and spiritually content.

jeremy67
08-04-2006, 01:37 PM
Religion - In my view, religion is a man made phenomenon, a means of controlling people and dictating how they should act and what they should believe. Uniformity imposed by dictat. Religion is too often associated with power and money, and too rarely concerned with matters of the spirit. Any essence of true goodness at the outset of a religion has now been lost in a sea of ritual; a case of form over content.

Spirituality - For me, spirituality is a very personal thing; everyone develops spiritually in their own way and at their own pace, discovering things from within rather than having them imposed from outside. No two people share the same spiritual path, which is why true spirituality cannot be bound up in an organisation.

Love and Light,

Jeremy :cool:

Red Sky
16-04-2006, 02:14 AM
I would also have to agree with those thoughts, Jeremy.

Creator
22-04-2006, 02:21 AM
Religion - In my view, religion is a man made phenomenon, a means of controlling people and dictating how they should act and what they should believe. Uniformity imposed by dictat. Religion is too often associated with power and money, and too rarely concerned with matters of the spirit. Any essence of true goodness at the outset of a religion has now been lost in a sea of ritual; a case of form over content.




Well said !!

DASA
22-04-2006, 10:48 AM
'Religion without philosophy is sentiment, or sometimes fanaticism, while philosophy without religion is mental speculation.'

- A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada

Jacob
17-05-2006, 05:47 AM
Spirituality is a fancy word for superstition. Religion is much the same.

DASA
17-05-2006, 08:12 AM
Hi Jacob,

your comment does beg the question:

If you feel so strongly against both 'spirituality' & 'religion' then what are you wishing to discuss on Spiritual Fourms? ...lol

I'm interested to find out.

Best Wishes,

Das
:smile:

peteyzen
17-05-2006, 10:57 AM
Hi Jacob,

your comment does beg the question:

If you feel so strongly against both 'spirituality' & 'religion' then what are you wishing to discuss on Spiritual Fourms? ...lol

I:

Hi Jacob, and dass et all
I reckon jacobs just putting the cat amongst the pigeons here, but if not then dass`s point bears considering.
Going back to the original thingy about spirituality and religion, i see it like this

Religion is , generally, a man made structure,(often divinely inspired) which has various practices in it, through which those involved in the religion are supposed to grow and learn more about god or spirituality (depending on what you believe in).

For me, the term spirituality is defined as being the practices that evolve both me as an individual and mankind en masse back toward the divine. Now on the face of it these two seem similar, but where I find a big difference is here: Some people involved in religions and some religions themselves, begin to act as if their religion is God, rather than just a framework within which spiritual development is possible.

If this understanding of the real nature of religion, that is, as a framework for development, one of many, were universally accepted then the in fighting between religions could be avoided and people would look on other religions as just other methods of reaching the same goal, the divine, not competition, not a way that leads to hell if they follow another path, simply a different path to the same goal.

Essentially religion is just a frame work for people to practice spirituality from within, but it is man made and man controlled and that is where most of the problems come from, never the less religion still performs a hugely important function , because without it there is no framework for the masses to learn and work with like minded people spirituallly.
I say this as an outsider though because I doont belong to one.

hug each other more, but not my wife , obviouslly!

Jacob
21-05-2006, 05:15 AM
Setting the cat amongst the pigeons...

Yup, pretty much

Harbinger
29-05-2006, 01:30 PM
According to the dictionary religion is: Belief in or a reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator or governor of the universe, and a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief.
Spiritual is: Relating to or consisting of Spirit, Ecclesiastical; Sacred.
My idea is religion would be the "rules / beliefs" surrounding whatever deity you happen to choose to worship...
Spirituality would be the way that you actually experience, and express this relationship with a given divine - with yourself, or the world around you.

Harbinger
29-05-2006, 01:37 PM
According to the dictionary religion is: Belief in or a reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator or governor of the universe, and a personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief.
Spiritual is: Relating to or consisting of Spirit, Ecclesiastical; Sacred.
My idea is religion would be the "rules / beliefs" surrounding whatever deity you happen to choose to worship...
Spirituality would be the way that you actually experience, and express this relationship with a given divine - with yourself, or the world around you.
05-21-2006 01:15 AM

Harbinger
29-05-2006, 01:46 PM
As you can see by my reply being posted twice, I'm still learning how to use this site...I'm glad to see everyone here is spending time informing themselves and others about subjects that matter the most. Sure beats reading the newspapaers...Hello to all fellow "harbingers" and hope to get a chance to talk more in the future...

peteyzen
30-05-2006, 08:32 AM
Hey harbringer, I agree with your post matey, I kind of see religion as the text book and spirituality as the real experience, but also I freel that spirituality encompasses all religions, whereas the religions only encompass that particular set of beliefs.
So spirituality is the ocean and religions are the individual localised seas.
Great post harbringer, look forward to more from you.

Creator
31-05-2006, 02:55 AM
Religion is , generally, a man made structure,(often divinely inspired) which has various practices in it, through which those involved in the religion are supposed to grow and learn more about god or spirituality (depending on what you believe in).

For me, the term spirituality is defined as being the practices that evolve both me as an individual and mankind en masse back toward the divine. Now on the face of it these two seem similar, but where I find a big difference is here: Some people involved in religions and some religions themselves, begin to act as if their religion is God, rather than just a framework within which spiritual development is possible.

If this understanding of the real nature of religion, that is, as a framework for development, one of many, were universally accepted then the in fighting between religions could be avoided and people would look on other religions as just other methods of reaching the same goal, the divine, not competition, not a way that leads to hell if they follow another path, simply a different path to the same goal.

Essentially religion is just a frame work for people to practice spirituality from within, but it is man made and man controlled and that is where most of the problems come from, never the less religion still performs a hugely important function , because without it there is no framework for the masses to learn and work with like minded people spirituallly.


Hey Peteyzen,

Nicely said I couldn

Creator
31-05-2006, 03:16 AM
Spirituality is a fancy word for superstition. Religion is much the same.


Hello Jacob,

Your signature, which states

peteyzen
31-05-2006, 08:01 AM
Thanks creator,I don`t know where it all came from, it just splurged out when I hit the keys, funny how that happens sometimes isn`t it?

j cayne
31-05-2006, 06:24 PM
Could someone explain why every religion is so hostile to womem when it is usually women who have the most accessible compassion, reciprocity and respect for life?

DASA
01-06-2006, 08:12 AM
Could someone explain why every religion is so hostile to womem when it is usually women who have the most accessible compassion, reciprocity and respect for life?

Hi again JC,

You've brought some fresh air into the forums. :smile:

Maybe it's just men (out of ignorance) who are hostile to women generally, and it's got nothing to do with religion? The largest groups of organised men traditionally have been armies and the church - neither have that good a record in recent (last 1000 years) Western history in regards to treatment of women.

What do you think?

Gouranga,

Das
:smile:

peteyzen
01-06-2006, 11:28 AM
Could someone explain why every religion is so hostile to womem when it is usually women who have the most accessible compassion, reciprocity and respect for life?
Hi cayne, as dasa said a breath of fresh air.
I`m only guessing but in the past religion has represented power, sadly, and instead of being spiritual it has become a plaything of power seekers. Culture too plays a part and mankind with the emphasis on MAN has kept woman kind subdued.
Its a huge mistake, when all the games of life are past and death looms, even the strongets men cry aloud for their mothers. If only we could see through the ****, the maya, earlier we could actually achieve something magnificent and maybe nobody, not just women but the disabled and mentally impaired, and yes even ginger people, could be treated equally.
Ego is the big problem I`m afraid, and its biggest enemy is compassion and love, selflessness, kindness, attributes usually associated with the feminine.

Thats my tag on it, what do others think.

Harbinger
02-06-2006, 08:03 AM
dear peteyzen,

thanx for the reply ...
I'm glad to see with my first entry on this site that someone out there feels the way I do...There will be more to follow regarding "universal myths" surrounding religion in a different time periods but I need to review my Joseph Campbell stuff first...Is there anyone out there who can tell me who/when the term "bottisadfa" (I don't have the correct spelling although I know what it means... came from.) This will be the discussion of my next entry...Also working on (perhaps) some of the most controversial comments about Jesus this side of the Davinci Code...I know I'm gonna get alot of flack soon for those thoughts, and I'm gathering my wheaties and my armor before I get into it...Talk soon

Harbinger
02-06-2006, 08:16 AM
In response to your ??'s regarding the hositility towards women, it would seem that for the people who bought into the Myth of Adam & Eve (taken literally) it would seem that Eve was the temptress to Adam, which started the whole origional sin deal, which prompted the idea of the virgin birth, etc, etc...So the people who are in power who believe this really happened just took women as being corrupted from the very beginning, even though we know God would never make anything less than a perfect individual, because that would imply the creator is imperfect which is a tangent it may be too late for me to get into right now at 414am...I need to get up for work in 3 hours...oh the price of enlightenment!!!::
Nice to meet you...

eternity
02-06-2006, 01:18 PM
When the divine created human life male and female were the same.Except of course for the obvious gender differences.
The biggest diifference is physiological between man and women.
The divine sees both as one.I fail to understand why humans want this any other way.
Females are and never will be more corrupt that the male counterpart.
With each incarnation the soul will come back as either so as to effect a toal rounded experience on the planet.
Light and grace.
Eternity.

Glorymist
03-06-2006, 02:38 AM
j cayne - -

If I may be so bold as to ask - -

Could you clarify / define what you mean by religions being so "hostile" to women ?? I am not disputing you on this. And - - rather than me taking a half-dozen stabs and trying to figure out what you mean - - I figure I'll just ask.

HeH

:->

psychic sue
09-06-2006, 09:26 AM
Don't mean to offend anyone here, but religion to me is a way of controlling the masses - it worked in days gone by, but people are turning their back on religion (in the UK anyway) and looking for something more.

Religion took the place of Law in the old days. The Ten Commandments were just laws for people to live by and suited the time they were made - actually they are not bad things to try and ascribe to, even today.

Other dogma is man made - for example catholic priests not being able to marry - it doesn't say anything about that in the bible. In fact, God says "go forth and multiply" - if you want to be celibate fine, but I don't feel it should be imposed, and I don't think it's a natural state to live in - God gave us the urge to pass on our Genes after all.

Spirituality is the essence of God to me - I feel it's within us all whatever religion we follow.

Glorymist
09-06-2006, 04:22 PM
I heartily agree that the organized religions are a way for / to control the masses. To a very great extent.

But there is an underlying purpose for the various religions.

Each is a way to understand LIFE at a greater and more involved level.

When one even first comes into a rather "Godly" understanding of Life - - and moves into a rather simplistic religion - - they begin to learn the basics of many principles / concepts / etc. As they move into the more "complex" religions - - they build on this.

Finally - - on into hardcore metaphysics. Or into the philosophies. And finally into "spirituality" - - whatever that personally means to the individual.

It is all a process. And a continuance.

In my very humble opinion.

psychic sue
11-06-2006, 12:41 PM
As for religion being hostile to women - only since the counsel of Nicea when Constantine decided to mix christianity with pagan beliefs - that's when the female was wiped out as a "goddess" and relegated to a supporting role of wife/mother to Gods and even to Jesus.

Pope Gregory also decided to call Mary Magdalene a prostitute (which she wasn't) when in fact she was Jesus' no 1 disciple.

jeremy67
11-06-2006, 05:10 PM
As for religion being hostile to women - only since the counsel of Nicea when Constantine decided to mix christianity with pagan beliefs

... And that in itself is quite odd. Wasn't the female spirit quite important in pagan belief; mother nature and all that?

... Just another example of an organised religion hijacking and mutilating longstanding beliefs, then re-selling them to the masses as a means of brainwashing.

Love and Light
Jeremy :cool:

Mart
11-06-2006, 08:08 PM
I saw the da vinci code too - i always knew the church was bollox.

psychic sue
12-06-2006, 11:27 AM
Da Vinci Code was mainly bollox too! But did have some things of interest in there.

Obviously the pagan Goddess was removed to give men more power - and look where it got us? Wars and aggression for the last god-knows-how-long.

Men have always manipulated their faith and belief to get what they want -and I can't see it changing.

dreamer
12-06-2006, 11:29 AM
I can - see it changing, quite quickly too

psychic sue
13-06-2006, 12:45 PM
There are still no women allowed in the Priesthood - Church of England allows it but what difference has it made, honestly? The main figureheads of christianity are men (apart from Mary who was, as I said, given a supporting role). If things do change, it will take a long time IMHO.

I can't take any religion seriously that segregates any section of society - man/woman/gay/straight/black/brown - God made us all (IMO) and made us all the way we are - gender and sexuality are not something you can decide on - you just are who you are - and surely it follows then, that God made you that way?

dreamer
13-06-2006, 05:47 PM
I think thats the thing that is changing fastest, the church/religion as a male dominated bastion of bigoted misinformation is becoming exposed, give it six years i reckon. Appointing a homphobic ex nazi as pope will be the final straw - you watch ho,ho,ho. Order will be restored theres only so long you can cover up an obvious lie anyway, I think it's changing already.

Mart
13-06-2006, 08:25 PM
Six years, that's a bit optimistic - who you calling an idiot anyhoo.

psychic sue
14-06-2006, 11:55 AM
I agree Mart - take longer than that to unravel thousands of years of male dominance - and whether we like it or not our whole society is dominated by the male. Unfortunately.

Mart
14-06-2006, 06:42 PM
I'm not sure I totally agree with that, not in my house anyway!!

AL
15-06-2006, 03:26 PM
peace and hi ,
I think it can be of practical benefit to separate the supreme SOUL from religion if we are to see that one as they realy are . It is this one who can remind us of our true form and personality . The template of creation , by looking into that one .
Separate the soul / self from matter . The wheat from the chaff . In order to create one - ness . Strange game this .
Perhaps we must separate things in order to understand at first ,then we can put things back together again in a way which suits our new model .
Spirituality should allow for models to be broken down when a new and better one comes along . Religion does not allow such flexibility .
If we are all spiritual beings , then everything is spiritual , at least in terms of perception .
We are all invisible , spiritual beings . It is about discovering the natural quality ' s of the soul and becomming the embodiment of them . If religion can do this for me , then great , if it does not , then perhaps I must ask myself what I am doing there .
Al *

psychic sue
16-06-2006, 10:48 AM
Al - I was talking about religion from MY persepctive - of course many people gain great spiritual strength and comfort from their chosen religion - I was just making comments from my own viewpoint. I would never wish to offend or insult anyone else's beliefs.

Sue x

Mart
16-06-2006, 07:16 PM
Hi Sue, I don't understand why you apologised, your view is valid.

psychic sue
19-06-2006, 09:57 AM
Just don't want to offen anyone else's religious beliefs that's all. I am not saying my way is the ONLY way - these are just my opinions based on my experiences.

traveller
06-01-2007, 08:13 AM
I think it

wayfaring
11-01-2007, 09:11 AM
Hi, just joining in at the end here....
I tend to think of religion as mainly concerned with the groups or communities outward practices and orientation...you know, ceremony, ritual, observance, forms of belief and practice and hence orthodoxy and orthopraxy, whereas I think of spirituality as intrinsic...an individuals inward disposition and inclination towards the Divine and the forms of the Divine that the individual uses. Thus a person may be spiritual but not religious and vice-versa. I think that religion can be the shadow of spirituality, but also a means of transcendence.

TzuJanLi
19-01-2007, 08:15 PM
Greetings..

I haven't read the entire thread.. but, it has been my experience that "religion" is the "business" of spirituality.. whether by money or formalized processes..

Be well..

m.namasivayam
12-05-2007, 11:27 AM
Religion is based on rituals:rolleyes:

spiritual needs consciousness:hug3: