Do we have free will? [Archive]

rsingh

14-01-2012, 03:27 AM

BlueSky

14-01-2012, 03:46 AM

For me, it is enough that it feels like there free will.

Blessings, James

Xan

14-01-2012, 03:59 AM

Sometimes it feels like I can make a choice... about how and where I give my attention and energy... so I do.

Sometimes it feels like I'm just observing what is inevitably in motion... so I accept that.

My question is... Do we really need to nail it down to One Right Answer about free will? My choice is... no.

Xan

BlueSky

14-01-2012, 04:03 AM

Sometimes it feels like I can make a choice... about how I give my awareness and energy... so I do.

Sometimes it feels like I'm just observing what is inevitably in motion... so I accept that.

My question is... Do we really need to nail it down to One Right Answer about free will? My choice is... no.

Xan

I feel both ways as well and I agree....I have no need either to nail it down and label it truth.
There is freedom in that I find.

Blessings, James

psychoslice

14-01-2012, 04:11 AM

There is so called free will, as far as the mind body programming and condition will allow, but when we go beyond the mind and experience no mind, then there is a degree of true free will, that is until the mind takes hold again.:smile:

Gem

14-01-2012, 04:33 AM

a clear minded response would reflect the facets of intent, choice and volition and freedom, will power and belief...

lacking insght can sound so much like mastery. It's a practiced and honed mannerizm, the skill of saying nothing while sounding like you're something.

I thought to myself 'Oh no, not another 10 000 post free willy thread!'!!

What is 'free will' but the name of oberved facets of our nature. The intention we have, our ability to effect change, our selections, determination and capability?

Oops, psycho already answered the question as though God has spoken, so now you know, you can all go home. teehee.

psychoslice

14-01-2012, 04:35 AM

Xan

14-01-2012, 04:38 AM

As I see it there are three levels in regard to free will.

* As long as we unconsciously follow our conditioning, we may think we're making choices from free will but in actuality we're just programmed.

* Once we become aware of other possibilities and begin to release our past conditioning, real choices appear and we can go ahead in new ways... including the way of choosing to give our attention into our true nature.

* In surrendering the will of our ego mind, the option to choose disappears into spontaneous free expression of the inner self through this body-mind.

Xan

TzuJanLi

14-01-2012, 05:16 AM

Greetings..

Yes, we have 'free will'.. and, at some level, everyone knows they can change, knows they can choose to realize their greater potential.. convenience is a powerful catalyst in the choice not to choose.. and, too many people give others less credit for their awareness than they deserve, i think people, in general, are much more aware than most Spiritual people understand..

Be well..

psychoslice

14-01-2012, 05:21 AM

Gem

14-01-2012, 05:25 AM

I am the God, and you better realize that lol.:smile:

forgive me lord, I'm truely a heathen.

psychoslice

14-01-2012, 05:26 AM

forgive me lord, I'm truely a heathen.
You lucky thing, I have to put this big act on for everyone.:icon_frown:

Gem

14-01-2012, 05:36 AM

You lucky thing, I have to put this big act on for everyone.:icon_frown:

LOL... that isness funny.

rsingh

14-01-2012, 07:22 AM

Originally posted by TzuJanLi
Yes, we have 'free will'.. and, at some level, everyone knows they can change, knows they can choose to realize their greater potential.. convenience is a powerful catalyst in the choice not to choose.. and, too many people give others less credit for their awareness than they deserve, i think people, in general, are much more aware than most Spiritual people understand..

Hi Tzu

You have choice as long as you are operating from your mind. You realize that you do not have any choice when you operate from your consciousness. Actually you do not operate from consciousness, consciousness operates through you. Consciousness divides itself through mind and then perceives itself through the filter of same mind. Consciousness is unable to perceive itself, it can only be itself. It perceives through the mind so it identifies with mind. It can be itself only when cloud of mind disappears and reality shines through.

Change happens only in the mind. No change happens in consciousness. Change is force of evolution behind the mind. Change can only happen in future that is where the mind lives. Mind lives either in the past or in future. There is no mind in the present. I do not mean present hour or present day. I mean present which is timeless. That is why presence is another name for consciousness.

BlueSky

14-01-2012, 02:18 PM

Gem

14-01-2012, 03:31 PM

Who are you referring to here?

Blessings, James

I'm refering to posts, but don't be distracted, it doesn'tmatter now anyway, because the answers are told to us, so now we can all go home with this profound knowledge.

teehee

3dnow

14-01-2012, 03:41 PM

Without letting go resistance there is no free will.

I am learning to play electro guitar.

I let go resistance, judgement (self or others), etc.

I play better.

(playing bad here = no free will)

ciel_perdu

14-01-2012, 05:17 PM

Our will is influenced by many things, so in that sense one could argue we do not have a free will. However, I think free will is more than just our thoughts, but our power to choose to do something or not. I have the power of choice, regardless of influence.

TzuJanLi

14-01-2012, 05:24 PM

Greetings..

Hi Tzu

You have choice as long as you are operating from your mind. You realize that you do not have any choice when you operate from your consciousness. Actually you do not operate from consciousness, consciousness operates through you. Consciousness divides itself through mind and then perceives itself through the filter of same mind. Consciousness is unable to perceive itself, it can only be itself. It perceives through the mind so it identifies with mind. It can be itself only when cloud of mind disappears and reality shines through.

Change happens only in the mind. No change happens in consciousness. Change is force of evolution behind the mind. Change can only happen in future that is where the mind lives. Mind lives either in the past or in future. There is no mind in the present. I do not mean present hour or present day. I mean present which is timeless. That is why presence is another name for consciousness.
Hi rsingh: We interpret our experiences differently.. i deal with what i see, i don't project a lot of stories, beliefs, or conditioning on what i see..

Be well..

SerpentQueen

14-01-2012, 05:39 PM

Almost all of us agree that planet earth does not have a free will. It revolves around sun and its own axis due to a mysterious force behind it. Most of us agree that plants do not have a free will as well. They are driven by nature. Many will also agree that animals do not have a free will. They have choice to their movements but these movements are limited by their nature. They cannot go beyond their nature. But not many will agree with me if I say that humans do not have free will. We seem to have some freedom. We can plan, set goals and work towards our goals. We also have freedom to choose if we want to watch TV and sleep at a particular time and so on. On other hand we regret for many our reactions. We get angry when we do not want to. We get sad when we loose some thing that we do not want to loose. So we perceive that we have freedom in certain areas while we do not have freedom in other areas. But is it true? It could be true if our perceptions are true. But we know that our perceptions are not true. Our perceptions are conditioned by our past. Then these perceptions are interpreted by our mind, which is also a perspective based on our past conditioning. It is primarily human ego that does not want to accept that we do not have a free will. Human ego likes to have free will and it will do everything to break limitation imposed on its free will. Every human being is yearning to free himself as much as he can.

Almost all of the enlightened masters say that there is no such thing as free will. Whose free will? Who we are? We are consciousness and there is only one consciousness. The consciousness is an observer. How an observer can have a free will? Creation has already happened and it is programmed to move into future in a pre-determined manner. In other words there is collective mind of the universe. Individual minds are subsets of the collective mind and move in accordance with the collective mind. Individuals do not have any power to move on their own. So no individual has any free will.

Do we have to agree with enlightened masters? No we do not have to agree or disagree with them. We have to find ourselves whether it is true or not. If we agree or disagree then it becomes our belief. Belief limits our mind to enquire and find truth. If we perceive truth then we can act from truth or truth can act through us. So let us yearn to find truth. Only truth can set us free.

I like your reasoning, and tend to agree with it. In my experience and observation, it seems we are born with an innate nature/temperament/preferences... call it true self, if you like. This has less to do with cultural programming and choices. In my experience and observation, dramatic personal transformation doesn't really happen (though we like to "think" and "believe" it is possible); instead, we are fairly consistent in who we are from birth to death.

Now I expect I will get people responding to this with anecdotes of their own dramatic personal transformation to prove me wrong; I would suggest that anecdotes do not count, and that a spiritual forum is highly slanted towards a certain personality type: the type that is born with a drive to constantly seek change and personal transformation and self-improvement!

But, it is an illusion that we are changing... all we are doing is "getting back on track" when we go off our predetermined course, back to embracing our true nature, whatever that may be.

If one is in the "flow" with their true nature, and not fighting it but accepting who they are, then one will flow rather smoothly through life and over all the obstacles and bumps thrown in one's path. This does not necessarily require a large dose of self-knowledge, nor does it take what we like to call "awareness" (though I totally agree with Tzu that non-spiritual folks can have a high degree of awareness -- I know this because my husband is living, breathing, daily, perfect example of this).

Think about the troubling example of a person who commits a heinous crime, and shows no remorse. Even after severe punishment for the crime, no remorse and the criminal goes right on committing crimes with disregard for his victims. We can't understand this because we are of a different nature. But, this person goes on through life basically unaffected and unruffled and without any major transformation, because being such a criminal *is* their true nature.

If, however, one is not in the "flow" and on a path that is not conducive to their true nature, then inevitably life will seem like a fight, a battle, a challenge and a major pain in the rear. And major situations will develop which will, essentially, shock them back on to their true path. This will seem like "transformation" because the events will be life altering. And, it will seem like "free will" because a choice will be made... but in the final analysis, if you look closely, you will see that the choice made was the only possible choice for that person, based on who they truly are.

Think again of the example of the criminal, but in this case, it's a criminal who winds up in prison, feels genuine remorse, and embraces every opportunity provided for reformation. The conviction for the crime is the major life-altering event; the criminal, however, only reforms because committing a crime not in alignment with his true nature. The prison sentence, in other words, only acted to get the person back on their predestined personal track.

Now you can dive into these two criminal examples, and suggest, "Committing the crime was a free will choice." But was it, really? In the first case, the criminal may have chosen to commit his crimes because disregard for fellow humans was his nature. What kind of choice is that? And the second criminal ... perhaps he committed his crime because he felt he had no other choice? He was poor and needed to feed his family? He was on drugs? He got himself into a gang? Etc.

I grew up believing in free will but in recent years I've questioned that belief, because when I look back on my life, I see that while I may have made some strides changing behaviors, inevitably, when a major stressful event happened, I reverted right back to predictable patterns & behaviors. It's very frustrating .... until you embrace and simply accept: this is who I am. I can only change so much about myself, better to go with the flow... and just be the best "me" I can be.... and trust that there's a reason that I am who I am.

Shabby

14-01-2012, 05:45 PM

Hi Tzu

You have choice as long as you are operating from your mind. You realize that you do not have any choice when you operate from your consciousness. Actually you do not operate from consciousness, consciousness operates through you. Consciousness divides itself through mind and then perceives itself through the filter of same mind. Consciousness is unable to perceive itself, it can only be itself. It perceives through the mind so it identifies with mind. It can be itself only when cloud of mind disappears and reality shines through.

Change happens only in the mind. No change happens in consciousness. Change is force of evolution behind the mind. Change can only happen in future that is where the mind lives. Mind lives either in the past or in future. There is no mind in the present. I do not mean present hour or present day. I mean present which is timeless. That is why presence is another name for consciousness.

I agree completely with your post rsingh, but would personally change consciousness with the word God or absolute as to me consciousness arises from awareness/the absolute/God.

TzuJanLi

14-01-2012, 06:37 PM

Greetings..

I like your reasoning, and tend to agree with it. In my experience and observation, it seems we are born with an innate nature/temperament/preferences... call it true self, if you like. This has less to do with cultural programming and choices. In my experience and observation, dramatic personal transformation doesn't really happen (though we like to "think" and "believe" it is possible); instead, we are fairly consistent in who we are from birth to death.

Now I expect I will get people responding to this with anecdotes of their own dramatic personal transformation to prove me wrong; I would suggest that anecdotes do not count, and that a spiritual forum is highly slanted towards a certain personality type: the type that is born with a drive to constantly seek change and personal transformation and self-improvement!

But, it is an illusion that we are changing... all we are doing is "getting back on track" when we go off our predetermined course, back to embracing our true nature, whatever that may be.

If one is in the "flow" with their true nature, and not fighting it but accepting who they are, then one will flow rather smoothly through life and over all the obstacles and bumps thrown in one's path. This does not necessarily require a large dose of self-knowledge, nor does it take what we like to call "awareness" (though I totally agree with Tzu that non-spiritual folks can have a high degree of awareness -- I know this because my husband is living, breathing, daily, perfect example of this).

Think about the troubling example of a person who commits a heinous crime, and shows no remorse. Even after severe punishment for the crime, no remorse and the criminal goes right on committing crimes with disregard for his victims. We can't understand this because we are of a different nature. But, this person goes on through life basically unaffected and unruffled and without any major transformation, because being such a criminal *is* their true nature.

If, however, one is not in the "flow" and on a path that is not conducive to their true nature, then inevitably life will seem like a fight, a battle, a challenge and a major pain in the rear. And major situations will develop which will, essentially, shock them back on to their true path. This will seem like "transformation" because the events will be life altering. And, it will seem like "free will" because a choice will be made... but in the final analysis, if you look closely, you will see that the choice made was the only possible choice for that person, based on who they truly are.

Think again of the example of the criminal, but in this case, it's a criminal who winds up in prison, feels genuine remorse, and embraces every opportunity provided for reformation. The conviction for the crime is the major life-altering event; the criminal, however, only reforms because committing a crime not in alignment with his true nature. The prison sentence, in other words, only acted to get the person back on their predestined personal track.

Now you can dive into these two criminal examples, and suggest, "Committing the crime was a free will choice." But was it, really? In the first case, the criminal may have chosen to commit his crimes because disregard for fellow humans was his nature. What kind of choice is that? And the second criminal ... perhaps he committed his crime because he felt he had no other choice? He was poor and needed to feed his family? He was on drugs? He got himself into a gang? Etc.

I grew up believing in free will but in recent years I've questioned that belief, because when I look back on my life, I see that while I may have made some strides changing behaviors, inevitably, when a major stressful event happened, I reverted right back to predictable patterns & behaviors. It's very frustrating .... until you embrace and simply accept: this is who I am. I can only change so much about myself, better to go with the flow... and just be the best "me" I can be.... and trust that there's a reason that I am who I am.
And so, you 'choose' the convenience of not taking responsibility for not taking control of your Life.. many people choose this perspective..

Be well..

SerpentQueen

14-01-2012, 07:14 PM

Greetings..

And so, you 'choose' the convenience of not taking responsibility for not taking control of your Life.. many people choose this perspective..

Be well..

I'm responsible for being the best "me" I can be, choosing to be true to who I am. It only causes me pain and suffering when I try to be someone I am not, or make choices that force me into a situation contrary to who I am.

Tzu, I think you cannot see this because your very nature is very disciplined. I have learned that I am not all that disciplined. I tortured myself with guilt for ages and ages, because I could not stick to anything with much discipline for very long. For example, easy one: diet and exercise. I can get on a role and be super disciplined about these things, and yes the weight drops off. But inevitably I drop off the bandwagon. The weight creeps back up. I realized that the reason the weight would creep back up is because I'd stuff my face out of self-hatred for not being as disciplined as I "should" be...

When I finally relaxed, and accepted I am just not that disciplined and I probably never will be, lo and behold... the weight dropped off as if by magic... without counting calories or really making any kind of effort whatsoever... and it has stayed off now for well over a decade.

I learned to work within my true nature, rather than against it. I suppose you could call that a "choice" if you would like. It doesn't feel like a choice. It feels more like a graceful acceptance.

I doubt you could choose to be less disciplined, Tzu. Just a hunch. (Then again I could have you all misread.. maybe you are lazy in your real life... I get an energy from you that says "highly disciplined." It's people like you that make me envious and wistful! :tongue: )

TzuJanLi

14-01-2012, 07:43 PM

Greetings..

I'm responsible for being the best "me" I can be, choosing to be true to who I am. It only causes me pain and suffering when I try to be someone I am not, or make choices that force me into a situation contrary to who I am.

Tzu, I think you cannot see this because your very nature is very disciplined. I have learned that I am not all that disciplined. I tortured myself with guilt for ages and ages, because I could not stick to anything with much discipline for very long. For example, easy one: diet and exercise. I can get on a role and be super disciplined about these things, and yes the weight drops off. But inevitably I drop off the bandwagon. The weight creeps back up. I realized that the reason the weight would creep back up is because I'd stuff my face out of self-hatred for not being as disciplined as I "should" be...

When I finally relaxed, and accepted I am just not that disciplined and I probably never will be, lo and behold... the weight dropped off as if by magic... without counting calories or really making any kind of effort whatsoever... and it has stayed off now for well over a decade.

I learned to work within my true nature, rather than against it. I suppose you could call that a "choice" if you would like. It doesn't feel like a choice. It feels more like a graceful acceptance.

I doubt you could choose to be less disciplined, Tzu. Just a hunch. (Then again I could have you all misread.. maybe you are lazy in your real life... I get an energy from you that says "highly disciplined." It's people like you that make me envious and wistful! :tongue: )
Hi SQ: Yes, i am very disciplined, but.. i have cultivated the disciplines to be my tools for adventures into wild and uncharted Lands, and.. i do not need to see new 'lands', but to see with new 'vision'.. few have traveled the paths i have been blessed with the good fortune to trod, or with the company of such gifted companions, and more adventures are nearing.. but, i am both.. disciplined and carefree, the discipline simply allows me to be carefree in situations where others would not.. i do so Love Life! anyway, my apologies, i do not often reveal some things..

Be well..

SerpentQueen

14-01-2012, 08:40 PM

Greetings..

Hi SQ: Yes, i am very disciplined, but.. i have cultivated the disciplines to be my tools for adventures into wild and uncharted Lands, and.. i do not need to see new 'lands', but to see with new 'vision'.. few have traveled the paths i have been blessed with the good fortune to trod, or with the company of such gifted companions, and more adventures are nearing.. but, i am both.. disciplined and carefree, the discipline simply allows me to be carefree in situations where others would not.. i do so Love Life! anyway, my apologies, i do not often reveal some things..

Be well..

You sound like you are apologizing for being disciplined; if so, please don't! It's who you are. I bet you showed discipline from a very early age. It is a trait I envy and a "should" in my head that I learned to let go. That doesn't make being "carefree" better or worse.... it's only better when one chooses to view "lazy" as "carefree" (and yes there is that word -- choose -- again).

Even better is letting go of the labels. Then I have space to sometimes be disciplined and sometimes be lazy and carefree, depending on my mood. I go through my fits and my spurts. I have always done so. I am never going to change. At present moment I am very much in a "lazy" phase! But I know from long experience, it won't last and something will grab my attention and passion long enough to engage and be disciplined for a phase of time. I give myself permission to just go with my own personal flow.. and ebb... and flow... my life has a rhythm.

You and I share a mindfulness; I am very much aware of the rhythm of my life. It just happens to go through fits and spurts of discipline, where, compared to your life, I imagine you are more consistent, with room for the carefree within your consistency. I am more like the ocean with its high and low tides ... you are more like... the methodical ticking of a clock, perhaps?

In that way -- letting go of labels -- yes I do have free will and choice; or... do I?

I'm not sure. I had a shrink once tell me that my mood is "naturally" hardwired to settle on a setpoint that is higher than most other people's "normal" setpoint. In other words, I'm naturally optimistic, upbeat, sunny and bubbly person. I am told I was like this as an infant.

Yet I know plenty of people who's setpoints are naturally lower, who are moody and negative and gloomy. I know a lot of these people because I seem to deliberately gravitate towards them, as we balance each other out. I would never tell them, "It's your choice to think negative and gloomy thoughts" because I know better: I don't choose happy thoughts. I am by nature hardwired to think happy thoughts rather than gloomy ones. It comes as naturally as breathing for me. Yes, I can have my gloomy moods... but it's not for very long that the happy thoughts come back. But am I really "choosing"? I'm just not so sure.....

If, for example, I got myself into a job situation that made me very miserable (long commute, overbearing boss, difficult coworkers, etc), even if I took the job by conscious and deliberate choice, I know from past experience that inevitably it would not last very long... I'd either find a way to make the situation less miserable, or I'd leave the job. But you see what I'm saying? I'm not sure that is a "choice" at all... is it a choice if one is just, by nature, inclined towards happiness rather than misery?

Maybe I'm splitting hairs now, but I don't think so. When you dig long enough under the hood of "free will" and "choice" it looks more and more like an illusion to me.

iScorpio

14-01-2012, 08:43 PM

I am Christian and I believe God gave us free will. =)

TzuJanLi

14-01-2012, 09:01 PM

Greetings..

I am Christian and I believe God gave us free will. =)
Good for you, iScorpio.. why does your 'God' punish you for using what it gave you?

Be well..

TzuJanLi

14-01-2012, 09:05 PM

Greetings..

You sound like you are apologizing for being disciplined; if so, please don't! It's who you are. I bet you showed discipline from a very early age. It is a trait I envy and a "should" in my head that I learned to let go. That doesn't make being "carefree" better or worse.... it's only better when one chooses to view "lazy" as "carefree" (and yes there is that word -- choose -- again).

Even better is letting go of the labels. Then I have space to sometimes be disciplined and sometimes be lazy and carefree, depending on my mood. I go through my fits and my spurts. I have always done so. I am never going to change. At present moment I am very much in a "lazy" phase! But I know from long experience, it won't last and something will grab my attention and passion long enough to engage and be disciplined for a phase of time. I give myself permission to just go with my own personal flow.. and ebb... and flow... my life has a rhythm.

You and I share a mindfulness; I am very much aware of the rhythm of my life. It just happens to go through fits and spurts of discipline, where, compared to your life, I imagine you are more consistent, with room for the carefree within your consistency. I am more like the ocean with its high and low tides ... you are more like... the methodical ticking of a clock, perhaps?

In that way -- letting go of labels -- yes I do have free will and choice; or... do I?

I'm not sure. I had a shrink once tell me that my mood is "naturally" hardwired to settle on a setpoint that is higher than most other people's "normal" setpoint. In other words, I'm naturally optimistic, upbeat, sunny and bubbly person. I am told I was like this as an infant.

Yet I know plenty of people who's setpoints are naturally lower, who are moody and negative and gloomy. I know a lot of these people because I seem to deliberately gravitate towards them, as we balance each other out. I would never tell them, "It's your choice to think negative and gloomy thoughts" because I know better: I don't choose happy thoughts. I am by nature hardwired to think happy thoughts rather than gloomy ones. It comes as naturally as breathing for me. Yes, I can have my gloomy moods... but it's not for very long that the happy thoughts come back. But am I really "choosing"? I'm just not so sure.....

If, for example, I got myself into a job situation that made me very miserable (long commute, overbearing boss, difficult coworkers, etc), even if I took the job by conscious and deliberate choice, I know from past experience that inevitably it would not last very long... I'd either find a way to make the situation less miserable, or I'd leave the job. But you see what I'm saying? I'm not sure that is a "choice" at all... is it a choice if one is just, by nature, inclined towards happiness rather than misery?

Maybe I'm splitting hairs now, but I don't think so. When you dig long enough under the hood of "free will" and "choice" it looks more and more like an illusion to me.
Hi SQ: If you choose to see an 'illusion', you will.. i choose to see... that's all, really, just to see.. it seems that the choice to 'just see' is more than all the illusions and labels combined..

Be well..

Jyotir

14-01-2012, 09:25 PM

Hello,

Yes, we do have free-will. And one could say God gave it. On the other hand, one could also say that we ourselves are God, exercising that very free-will in the evolution of our experience in realizing that we are God.

On some 'level' a choice is always being made, otherwise we would be completely static/inert - and we are not.
There are 'choices' being made on a moment-to-moment basis which are even below the threshold of consciousness which are nevertheless choices.

According to Integral philosophy, human beings subsume all the previous evolutionary 'types' and have latent divinity yet to unfold within - all as a microcosm of the entire range of cConsciousness. Therefore, choice, freewill is always available and must be (it is quite unavoidable) exercised in life. Even the argument that 'no choice is a choice' is valid in this sense, because in that case it is simply inertia which is the ('low' end) consciousness making the determination.

It is commonly seen in these discussions, the assumption that free-will "choice" is equivalent to the outcome of a reasoning process of the intellect/mind. Since it is a predominant function in human beings, so it is seen as the de-facto definition of "choice" by many. Then others point out that autonomic reflex as 'not being a choice' - but what is actually happening is that aspects of consciousness resident in the individual being, which are below the threshold of consciousness are allowed to "choose" rapidly prior to a mental deliberative process engages - but it is still choice/will.

These faculties are subsumed within the being from plant kingdom attributes (autonomic reflex - similar to the way plants turn towards the sun, etc.); or animal/vital instinctual response to stimulus, base desires - and are in play/available, although often less consciously (but still powerfully operating) than a mental reasoning. What is thought to be 'control' in this sense is not at all - it is being controlled. It turns out that it is the 'being' which becomes the instrument of these various forces of nature of which the being is partially comprised, rather than being master of them, unless and until higher faculties - not limited to mind and reasoning - begin to operate.

What the Indians call "kama-manas" (desire-mind, a mixture of animal/human attributes) is frequently the choice maker in humans. It signifies a free-will, but because of the nature of the consciousness, choices of this character often become binding on the individual (eg - problems), or impinge on others' free-will (eg - more problems) - ultimately not contributing to real freedom (free-will), but to further limitation in and of the physical world. This is why some traditions say that so-called free-will (as derived from kama-manas) is "not really free-will" in the ultimate sense. Much of the entire 'argument' typically revolves around that aspect of the discussion alone. (including divergences into morality and ethics - ie. 'self-defense' etc., which are imo confusing surface issues)

For spiritually aspiring people, it comes down to the "true" free-will - in the truest, most comprehensive sense of the word - that which is to be found in the Highest part of the being which subsumes and sees all the rest; that is simultaneously conscious of the personal necessity (the One as the Many/individual) but equally, that same necessity in all others (the Many as the One) - what is defined in short-hand as 'God's Will'. It is the aspiration to be confluent with this Will - found in the higher ranges of cConsciousness resident/available/accessible in the being - which is the true freedom and origin of the truest free-will.

The 'ego' will debate this because ego is rooted in ego-desire-mind, and views free-will as that which is purely based in, on, and supporting phenomenal separation (to the benefit of the individual alone) - but that is ultimately a false free-will, simply because it does not account for the totality of the individual being which is All Being. It is therefore really not "free" - it is bound/ binding/limiting - and that limitation is not freedom.

All of these 'free-wills' are technically "free-will" by some intrinsic view, so arguing over the relativity of them as exclusively/universally defining free-will is pointless. They are all choices made by the being in some way. It is just that some part/aspect of the available range of consciousness is predominant in the choice, which determines the limitation, efficacy, utility and consequence of the choice - or true freedom - all having their intrinsic probable general 'outcome' related to the origin of the choice-making consciousness invoked - whether conscious, unconscious, or likely an amalgam of many --- or fully conscious surrender to the Highest within.

The question is not whether or not we have free-will/choice - we do - but which part of the being, which focus of consciousness force is dominant in determining action? That is our primary choice - not of a resultant "action" in the world - but which consciousness is determining that action. It is spiritual practice which cultivates the viability of the highest within the being as increasingly conscious deliberate illumined choice. In some traditions this kind of choice is defined as not really being a 'choice' either (in the individual mentally deliberative sense), but simply allowing the Highest to operate in and through us as surrendered instruments - not really choice in the ordinary ego sense. Some spiritual masters have in that regard, said that because they are totally surrendered to the Divine, they have less 'free-will' than non-realized human beings.

The identification of the type of consciousness actualized is prerequisite to changing behavior, and behavior is a necessary outcome/result of consciousness. The self-examination of that proposition is a primary concern of any spiritual practice. The practice of discrimination and self-examination will reveal the origin and character of any individual's given 'free-will' in the moment.

~ J

SerpentQueen

14-01-2012, 09:52 PM

[COLOR="Navy"]
These faculties are subsumed within the being from plant kingdom attributes (autonomic reflex - similar to the way plants turn towards the sun, etc.); or animal/vital instinctual response to stimulus, base desires - and are in play/available, although often less consciously (but still powerfully operating) than a mental reasoning. What is thought to be 'control' in this sense is not at all - it is being controlled. It turns out that it is the 'being' which becomes the instrument of these various forces of nature of which the being is partially comprised, rather than being master of them, unless and until higher faculties - not limited to mind and reasoning - begin to operate.

The "being" makes the choice automatically; the "mind" -- which is not in control but thinks it is -- merely rationalizes the choice after the fact.

Minds can be highly creative in their rationalizations.

lemex

14-01-2012, 10:05 PM

If a person won't change the(ir) mind/actions, then what good is free will. All is because of the experience. I often see us try to remain the same in what we know in the experience.

Shabby

14-01-2012, 10:50 PM

I remember having a talk with God was I was a teenager. I don't recall the exact conversation but it went some where along the lines of my will vs. God's will: God said that he wanted what ever I did and I said but what if I did something different? and he said then that is what I wanted to you to do. I tried hard to "out run" the will of God but no matter what I chose to do it was always within his will.

Today I understand that what ever happens....happens within God's will and serves a purpose unknown to man.

rsingh

15-01-2012, 12:54 AM

Originally posted by SerpentQueen
The "being" makes the choice automatically; the "mind" -- which is not in control but thinks it is -- merely rationalizes the choice after the fact.

Hi SerpentQueen

You are right. Reality does not change with change in our consciousness. Our perception of reality change with change of our consciousness. We can perceive more and more of our true nature as our consciousness evolves to be more conscious of our actions and reactions. In reality we are simply observers. More closely we observe ourselves more wiser become. At the end there is only observer and no actor. Action happens automatically.

Gem

15-01-2012, 01:15 AM

If a person won't change the(ir) mind/actions, then what good is free will. All is because of the experience. I often see us try to remain the same in what we know in the experience.

The way I see it is there is first intent then the thought then the choice then the volition.

madein71

15-01-2012, 01:55 AM

Xan

15-01-2012, 02:07 AM

Through self-awareness... the inner work of healing and spiritual growth. Look at how your thought and emotional patterns work in you, and where you learned them in the past. Then find ways to let those mind habits go that you no longer need or want and discover your true nature which is not learned but inherent within you.

Xan

Xan

15-01-2012, 02:14 AM

SerpentQueen

15-01-2012, 04:21 AM

Hi SerpentQueen

You are right. Reality does not change with change in our consciousness. Our perception of reality change with change of our consciousness. We can perceive more and more of our true nature as our consciousness evolves to be more conscious of our actions and reactions. In reality we are simply observers. More closely we observe ourselves more wiser become. At the end there is only observer and no actor. Action happens automatically.

This is going to now sound contradictory to what I said earlier, but I have a flexible and open mind, and I'm personally okay with contradicting myself. :tongue:

Actions don't happen automatically, though feelings often do. I am thinking about my long battle with anxiety. I was born a jumpy anxious type. About 10 years ago I decided to finally do something about it, and got into CBT. I learned how to pause whenever I felt anxiety well up, and by pausing, that gave me time to react differently. Rinse repeat enough and yes, new habits are formed.

But, I still -- and always will -- feel that initial swell of anxiety. That's the part that is not a choice. How I react, may be within my control.

That said, and I think perhaps my point earlier, often it seems the universe will hit you with major challenges. I can see that a huge major big stressful situation may hit me one of these days, and that I may possibly react out of my natural anxiety, rather than the habit of pausing before reacting that I have instilled over all these years.

In that way, I can see a pattern... that if one is not on the divinely intended path, the universe will issue a "course correction." The habits I have instilled are fairly ingrained by now, so it's going to have to be a rather big correction, one shocking enough to make me react in my natural, innate way, rather than the habituated way I have trained myself to respond.

I could be wrong. I could totally surprise myself. I'm just throwing this out there for thoughts/discussion. One thing I have learned to do is not guess how I might react in a future situation, because I know very well I can't possibly know for sure, until I am in it.

rsingh

15-01-2012, 05:25 AM

Originally posted by SerpentQueen
Actions don't happen automatically, though feelings often do. I am thinking about my long battle with anxiety. I was born a jumpy anxious type. About 10 years ago I decided to finally do something about it, and got into CBT. I learned how to pause whenever I felt anxiety well up, and by pausing, that gave me time to react differently. Rinse repeat enough and yes, new habits are formed

Hi SerpentQueen

My statement "Action happens automatically" is a very abstract or broad statement. It can be interpreted in so many ways.

If we look it at an individual level then we can say that we are in more control of our actions if we are more conscious of them. If we are conscious of our thoughts leading to those actions then we are even more control of our actions. If we are aware of our identities creating our thoughts then we can even control our thoughts. Thoughts leads to feelings and feelings lead to thoughts. So we may even control our feelings. But control is an act of the ego which hinders our progress to be more conscious of ourselves. So to deepen our awareness we have to let go of our control and act as an observer. Let the actions happen automatically. If we look at the broader picture then this actions is happening automatically anyway. It seems that we are in control of our actions. But is it true? It can only be true if our perceptions are giving us a true picture of reality. But we know that our perceptions do not tell us the truth. We cannot perceive all the interactive phenomenon that is happening in the cosmos. To perceive the whole we have to look from the eyes of the whole which is consciousness. How you can look from pure consciousness? You have to be pure consciousness to look from the eyes of consciousness. Consciousness is simply an observer. Creation has already happened and its movement form past to future is pre-determined by collective mind of the universe. Individual minds are subsets of the collective mind and have to move in accordance with collective mind. So we are consciousness or observer and have no power other than observing ourselves. Action is happening automatically at cosmic level although it may not seem so at an individual level.

TzuJanLi

15-01-2012, 06:36 AM

Greetings..

Hi SerpentQueen

My statement "Action happens automatically" is a very abstract or broad statement. It can be interpreted in so many ways.

If we look it at an individual level then we can say that we are in more control of our actions if we are more conscious of them. If we are conscious of our thoughts leading to those actions then we are even more control of our actions. If we are aware of our identities creating our thoughts then we can even control our thoughts. Thoughts leads to feelings and feelings lead to thoughts. So we may even control our feelings. But control is an act of the ego which hinders our progress to be more conscious of ourselves. So to deepen our awareness we have to let go of our control and act as an observer. Let the actions happen automatically. If we look at the broader picture then this actions is happening automatically anyway. It seems that we are in control of our actions. But is it true? It can only be true if our perceptions are giving us a true picture of reality. But we know that our perceptions do not tell us the truth. We cannot perceive all the interactive phenomenon that is happening in the cosmos. To perceive the whole we have to look from the eyes of the whole which is consciousness. How you can look from pure consciousness? You have to be pure consciousness to look from the eyes of consciousness. Consciousness is simply an observer. Creation has already happened and its movement form past to future is pre-determined by collective mind of the universe. Individual minds are subsets of the collective mind and have to move in accordance with collective mind. So we are consciousness or observer and have no power other than observing ourselves. Action is happening automatically at cosmic level although it may not seem so at an individual level.
Hi rsingh: You are explaining someone else's theories, and.. those theories (if/then conditional assumptions) are not founded in reliable understandings.. that we cannot observe "all the interactive phenomenon that is happening in the cosmos", means nothing other than the obvious, that we cannot observe it with our physical eyes.. in no way does that imply or validate the the statement that "Creation has already happened and its movement form past to future is pre-determined by collective mind of the universe".. there is no evidence, at all, that Creation in its entirety has happened, or its movement is predetermined.. you, and others, may make whatever case you think is appropriate, but it is speculation..

Be well..

Gem

15-01-2012, 06:42 AM

I look at from the perspective of breath.

Breath occurs without intention or anything, it's happening and that's how it is.

Next, through intention you can direct attention to the breath.

Then there's choice to leave it be or alter it in some way,

Finally the volition can be employed to alter the breath if chosen.

Nothing spectacular ... just observations on breath.

rsingh

15-01-2012, 09:52 AM

Originally posted by TzuJanLi
Hi rsingh: You are explaining someone else's theories, and.. those theories (if/then conditional assumptions) are not founded in reliable understandings.. that we cannot observe "all the interactive phenomenon that is happening in the cosmos", means nothing other than the obvious, that we cannot observe it with our physical eyes.. in no way does that imply or validate the the statement that "Creation has already happened and its movement form past to future is pre-determined by collective mind of the universe".. there is no evidence, at all, that Creation in its entirety has happened, or its movement is predetermined.. you, and others, may make whatever case you think is appropriate, but it is speculation..

Hi TzuJanLi

Truth cannot be explained in words. Only methods of realizing the truth can be explained and there are many methods of realising the truth. Surrender of our ego to the consciousness is one of them. This method/theory is just pointing towards unconditional surrender to consciousness. Obviously it cannot be proven because it is not a scientific truth even though Quantum physics is pointing towards it. It is a spiritual truth. Spiritual truths cannot be proven. They can only be realised. If you want to realise the truth or consciousness then one of the methods is to surrender to consciousness. This method has been adopted all the time for more than 3000 years and it is still valid. No body needed any theories to adopt this method few hundred years ago. But today people need theories because they have turned scientific minded. Truth is the same. It does not matter how you realise it. All paths leads to truth. Some are longer and some are shorter. Some are easier and some are harder. You can choose whichever suits you.

3dnow

15-01-2012, 11:51 AM

We cannot understand free will but it is useful to think about what free will is not.

For example:

Doing what your daddy told you is not free will.
Imitating cinema, music stars (behaving like them) is not free will.
etc.

Maiya

15-01-2012, 12:25 PM

We are free to make choices and I believe this is what many people think of as free will. But so many of our choices fail to result in the outcome we wanted or expected.

Many people talk about following a path and how much easier life is when they do and how much more difficult it becomes when we don’t follow our path.

We are pre-programmed through our conditioning and our genes. I agree with what someone else said about changing our lives…. We don’t really change anything, we simply improve on the hand we were dealt. We can become better card players but we are still card players.

Jyotir

15-01-2012, 01:46 PM

What is thought to be 'control' in this sense is not at all - it is being controlled. It turns out that it is the 'being' which becomes the instrument of these various forces of nature of which the being is partially comprised, rather than being master of them, unless and until higher faculties - not limited to mind and reasoning - begin to operate.

The "being" makes the choice automatically; the "mind" -- which is not in control but thinks it is -- merely rationalizes the choice after the fact.

Minds can be highly creative in their rationalizations.
Hi Serpent Queen,

That is what the mind does - rationalize. But only after the fact?

As you point out - the 'being' makes the choice 'automatically', because of a predominant identification with (the consciousness of) the rationalizing mind - that's where the 'automatic' comes from. It is from a predisposition, habitual use of 'mind'/mental consciousness - the nature of which is to divide, compare, rationalize, reason. It is the mind then, which is actually in control of the being if the being automatically responds to the mind - i.e., conditioned.

It's like a man saying he is in 'control' of his life because he 'chose' to have a mistress - yet he drops everything and runs to her every time she calls him. In that case, it is the being which assents to, is in the service of desire, which is 'choosing' for the being. This is a fundamental problem of existence. People think they are 'in control', masters of their lives, when really they are stuck, enslaved to endless cycles of ignorant activity. They see the perpetually unsatisfying results of their "choices", and are continuously perplexed and confused - all because of this surface, conditioned identification with a partial, ignorant, 'shadow' reality.

Consciousness is not separate from the being, but unless and until the being identifies with consciousness beyond the ego-desire-mind it is 'trapped', 'swept along' in automatic responses to the so-called 'lower nature' (in some traditions "gunas") of which ego-desire-mind is a part, and of which the greater being is partially composed. It is a false, conditioned identification with the part of the being which is rooted in and operates by ignorance of 'true' self.

~ J

Jyotir

15-01-2012, 02:14 PM

Jyotir: one could also say that we ourselves are God, exercising that very free-will in the evolution of our experience in realizing that we are God.

Yes... we are God because there is only one source, God being a popular name for that, and we can't be other than what we are made from.

We therefore have free will because of the freely chosen movement of Source to create all existence.

The term "co-creators" has become hackneyed, but we can't be other than creating in some limited ways - consciously or unconsciously - as it is our inherent nature.

In this we don't seem to have the capacity to create new universes, but we most certainly can become conscious and free enough to choose our experience of life and existence, moment to moment.
Hi Xan,

Agreed on all points including:
'limited' free-will, since in this particular discussion (human free-will) many imo mistakenly equate the proposition of free-will with omnipotence; as well as "co-creator", which is descriptively appropriate, but has generally become not only hackneyed, but specifically too often associated with so-called 'abundance thinking', etc.

~ J

TzuJanLi

15-01-2012, 03:00 PM

Greetings..

Jyotir: one could also say that we ourselves are God, exercising that very free-will in the evolution of our experience in realizing that we are God.

Yes... we are God because there is only one source, God being a popular name for that, and we can't be other than what we are made from.

We therefore have free will because of the freely chosen movement of Source to create all existence.

The term "co-creators" has become hackneyed, but we can't be other than creating in some limited ways - consciously or unconsciously - as it is our inherent nature.

In this we don't seem to have the capacity to create new universes, but we most certainly can become conscious and free enough to choose our experience of life and existence, moment to moment.

Xan
Hi Xan: I appreciate the message of this post.. there are a couple of 'words' "i" wouldn't choose, but the message is solid..

Be well..

Maiya

15-01-2012, 03:03 PM

In meditation there is a sense of free will. Just sitting doing nothing gives a sense of having free will. But how many of us can just sit and do nothing for a long period of time.

What is the urgency we feel about the things we should be doing? Who or what is pushing the buttons and pulling the strings?

Something has us questioning free will. I feel, just the fact that we are questioning it proves that there is no free will. Where did the doubt come from?

SerpentQueen

15-01-2012, 03:21 PM

TzuJanLi

15-01-2012, 03:29 PM

Greetings..

In meditation there is a sense of free will. Just sitting doing nothing gives a sense of having free will. But how many of us can just sit and do nothing for a long period of time.

What is the urgency we feel about the things we should be doing? Who or what is pushing the buttons and pulling the strings?

Something has us questioning free will. I feel, just the fact that we are questioning it proves that there is no free will. Where did the doubt come from?
We choose to meditate.. we hear someone say "there is no freewill", and we choose to explore that statement.. and, some people choose to believe they have no freewill..

Be well..

SerpentQueen

15-01-2012, 03:40 PM

Hi Serpent Queen,

That is what the mind does - rationalize. But only after the fact?

As you point out - the 'being' makes the choice 'automatically', because of a predominant identification with (the consciousness of) the rationalizing mind - that's where the 'automatic' comes from. It is from a predisposition, habitual use of 'mind'/mental consciousness - the nature of which is to divide, compare, rationalize, reason. It is the mind then, which is actually in control of the being if the being automatically responds to the mind - i.e., conditioned.

It's like a man saying he is in 'control' of his life because he 'chose' to have a mistress - yet he drops everything and runs to her every time she calls him. In that case, it is the being which assents to, is in the service of desire, which is 'choosing' for the being. This is a fundamental problem of existence. People think they are 'in control', masters of their lives, when really they are stuck, enslaved to endless cycles of ignorant activity. They see the perpetually unsatisfying results of their "choices", and are continuously perplexed and confused - all because of this surface, conditioned identification with a partial, ignorant, 'shadow' reality.

Consciousness is not separate from the being, but unless and until the being identifies with consciousness beyond the ego-desire-mind it is 'trapped', 'swept along' in automatic responses to the so-called 'lower nature' (in some traditions "gunas") of which ego-desire-mind is a part, and of which the greater being is partially composed. It is a false, conditioned identification with the part of the being which is rooted in and operates by ignorance of 'true' self.

~ J

I like framing the discussion around examples. You gave the example of a man who "chose" a mistress. I am in love with two men, my husband and the one I call my twin. I cannot "choose" my feelings when it comes to either of them. They are what they are. I can, however, choose my actions. If I wasn't in an open marriage, or if my husband requested it, I could limit my contact with twin, so that the overwhelming feelings of love and connection aren't continually fueled. Yes, that would be a "choice."

Except it's funny how, when I do that, when I focus only on my husband, when I lose myself in the moment with him, when I'm completely present and the love between us is flowing and twin is last thing on my mind... the universe seems to conspire to remind me of twin again. Universe can go to quite great & clever lengths, in fact.

I am either rationalizing after the fact.... or I am not in control and have only limited free will, which the universe is constantly making clear to me.

I don't believe I'm "stuck in endless cycles of ignorant activity" -- I'm quite mindful of it all, constantly questioning, which is what drives me batty. If I was to "surrender to pure consciousness," I'd be out of my marriage and on a plane in a flash. There have been several occasions in which I nearly did just that. But I didn't. I stopped myself, and I put my rational head back on. I'm not sure which action is me being the control freak -- staying in my marriage and stubbornly resisting the call of the universe to surrender and follow a different path? Or following that path and chalking it up to some grand "destiny" I had no choice but to follow?

These thoughts plague me daily, and hourly, awake and asleep....

SerpentQueen

15-01-2012, 03:44 PM

... or if I choose to do nothing, to be passive and just observe.... to place faith in universe that if this is my destiny then universe will make it happen, with no action required on my part... then I'm accused of not taking responsibility for my own actions...

(winks at Tzu)

Seriously, being passive is not my nature. But I'm trying.

SerpentQueen

15-01-2012, 03:57 PM

The way I see it is there is first intent then the thought then the choice then the volition.

This sounds good, but definition of volition: The faculty or power of using one's will. That is the definition of choice, is it not? And also a factor of intent, because intent is a choice.

I would say it's more like:

First there is all this subconscious stuff our mind is not aware of.... rsingh called this "being"...

Next there is feeling. Which I don't believe we control. It's automatic.

Next you can choose to act on those feelings, or not to act on them. Those who are "stuck in endless cycles of ignorant activity" are not aware that they can make any choice at all, so they act automatically on their feelings.

The choosing requires thought. This is where the mind kicks in.

It requires a sturdy intent to choose over and over in a new way, contrary to how one might automatically & customarily respond. Intent and volition are the same thing.

If you rinse/repeat often enough, you can reprogram your feelings, though only to a certain extent. CBT has helped me greatly; minor things do not arouse anxiety in me like they used to. That said, give me a major stress, and yes, the anxiety response will occur. The more major the stress, the more likely I will act automatically without conscious thought.

And you see... the universe KNOWS this... if you are not on "track" where it wants you to be, it conspires to throw a huge event in your way, knowing exactly how you are going to react.

Am I the only one who sees this? Not just on a personal level. I see it happen globally, too. If another 9/11 happened, there may be enough people now who will not react the way we reacted in 2001. But if, say, there was an alien invasion.... or some other traumatic event at much greater scale than 9/11... we may revert and forget all those lessons, and perform according to "script."

In this way, the universe makes us it's *****. :tongue:

lemex

15-01-2012, 08:51 PM

The way I see it is there is first intent then the thought then the choice then the volition.
You see well. It is the intent which is the experience of the intent that which is manifested. The mind actually has already decided before you think you have. You have thousands of moments to change your mind but don't. In other words you have already made a decision not made one you are unaware exists. All thought merely continues as does the act, the manifesting. It is somewhere in between every moment(s) that choice resides don't you think. For me for instance, I already know how and what I would do even before the act. Great insight.

Xan

15-01-2012, 10:03 PM

Serpent Queen: If I was to "surrender to pure consciousness," ...

Actually, it's impossible to know what we will do in surrender to pure consciousness, which is Not surrender to pure feeling. This is why we call it "surrender" rather than just "letting go". What we surrender into is unknown to the mind with its preconceptions and expectations.

And this is why it's a wholly courageous choice... facing the drop-off from the mind's familiar constant questioning and defining.

Xan

rsingh

16-01-2012, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by TzuJanLi
We choose to meditate.. we hear someone say "there is no freewill", and we choose to explore that statement.. and, some people choose to believe they have no freewill..

Hi TzuJanLi

Who is choosing? Is it your mind or is it your consciousness? Who are you? Are you your body? Are you your mind? Are you consciousness? Are you something else? Obviously choice follows from who you are? Your highest self and then filtered down through your lower selves. Then that choice is acted upon from your lowest self that interfaces with the world that you perceive.

rsingh

16-01-2012, 02:07 AM

Originally posted by Lemex You see well. It is the intent which is the experience of the intent that which is manifested. The mind actually has already decided before you think you have. You have thousands of moments to change your mind but don't. In other words you have already made a decision not made one you are unaware exists. All thought merely continues as does the act, the manifesting. It is somewhere in between every moment(s) that choice resides don't you think. For me for instance, I already know how and what I would do even before the act. Great insight.

Hi Lemex

From where the intent arises? Is not it from consciousness? Intention of consciousness to menifest.

Gem

16-01-2012, 02:42 AM

Except you can only choose to stop breathing for a certain length of time... you will inevitably black out and start breathing again.

Choice is not some ultimate thing, it's an observble process that occurs. That I have a choice is only a misnomer because there is no identifiable 'me'.

TzuJanLi

16-01-2012, 03:12 AM

Greetings..

Hi TzuJanLi

Who is choosing? Is it your mind or is it your consciousness? Who are you? Are you your body? Are you your mind? Are you consciousness? Are you something else? Obviously choice follows from who you are? Your highest self and then filtered down through your lower selves. Then that choice is acted upon from your lowest self that interfaces with the world that you perceive.
I am something else.. i am choosing.. "obviously", has nothing to do with this in the way you have applied it.. It's all one 'self', not higher/lower, start there, choose from there..

Be well..

rsingh

16-01-2012, 08:28 AM

Originally posted by TzuJanLi
I am something else.. i am choosing.. "obviously", has nothing to do with this in the way you have applied it.. It's all one 'self', not higher/lower, start there, choose from there..

Hi TzuJanLi

So there is no lower self and no higher self. It is all one Self. No body is choosing. So there is no choice. It is all happening automatically. Hence there is no fee will.

Choice arises from ego. Ego is an assumption that we are a separate self. If there is no separation form the whole or One then there is no one to choose and there is no choice. It is all happening automatically in a pre programmed order. No one has a power to break this order. No one can work against this order. Every one has to follow this order. There is no way out except to follow this order. So just surrender to One. We are already surrendered to Him. We just do not know it. We know only when we awaken from our dream which we call waking. This is the only difference between an awakened individual and un-awakened individual. Awakened knows the truth that it is all One. Separation is an illusion created by mind.

Gem

16-01-2012, 08:44 AM

Hi TzuJanLi

So there is no lower self and no higher self. It is all one Self. No body is choosing. So there is no choice. It is all happening automatically. Hence there is no fee will.

Isn't it simple to see, if you wish to alter your breath you can?

3dnow

16-01-2012, 09:24 AM

Isn't it simple to see, if you wish to alter your breath you can?

What if free will is breathing correctly without altering it?

Gem

16-01-2012, 09:37 AM

What if free will is breathing correctly without altering it?

What's correctly?

3dnow

16-01-2012, 10:12 AM

What's correctly?

I mean normally. In a healthy way.

Gem

16-01-2012, 10:28 AM

I mean normally. In a healthy way.

All im saying is, if you are breathing normally, but are able to alter the breath if you want, that's a choice.

Rsingh says "No body is choosing. So there is no choice." so I'm asking him, is not simple to see you can alter the breath if you want?

rsingh

16-01-2012, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Gem
All im saying is, if you are breathing normally, but are able to alter the breath if you want, that's a choice.

Rsingh says "No body is choosing. So there is no choice." so I'm asking him, is not simple to see you can alter the breath if you want?

Hi Gem

Off course you have a choice to alter your breath.

We know sun is at one place and does not move. But we do not have any problem with saying that sun rises and sun sets.

So we do not have any problem saying that we can choose to alter our breath.

Gem

16-01-2012, 10:45 AM

Hi Gem

Off course you have a choice to alter your breath.

We know sun is at one place and does not move. But we do not have any problem with saying that sun rises and sun sets.

So we do not have any problem saying that we can choose to alter our breath.

The sun does what it does, who can choose such a thing, but you can alter your breath if you want.

If you recognise that difference why do you say 'there is no choice'?

3dnow

16-01-2012, 12:05 PM

Interesting video about free will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

Gem

16-01-2012, 01:00 PM

Interesting video about free will:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM

Interesting video, but he knew the options before he went into the test, so he was already in the decision process. I mean the intent to press a button was there.

3dnow

16-01-2012, 02:05 PM

Interesting video, but he knew the options before he went into the test, so he was already in the decision process. I mean the intent to press a button was there.

Yes true but he didn't know his unconscious choice (the observer knows before him)

Lisa

16-01-2012, 02:17 PM

rsingh-

So there is no lower self and no higher self. It is all one Self. No body is choosing. So there is no choice. It is all happening automatically. Hence there is no fee will.

Choice arises from ego. Ego is an assumption that we are a separate self. If there is no separation form the whole or One then there is no one to choose and there is no choice.

We know only when we awaken from our dream which we call waking. This is the only difference between an awakened individual and un-awakened individual. Awakened knows the truth that it is all One. Separation is an illusion created by mind.

Thank you risngh. Very clear.

TzuJanLi

16-01-2012, 02:38 PM

Greetings..

Hi TzuJanLi

So there is no lower self and no higher self. It is all one Self. No body is choosing. So there is no choice. It is all happening automatically. Hence there is no fee will.

Choice arises from ego. Ego is an assumption that we are a separate self. If there is no separation form the whole or One then there is no one to choose and there is no choice. It is all happening automatically in a pre programmed order. No one has a power to break this order. No one can work against this order. Every one has to follow this order. There is no way out except to follow this order. So just surrender to One. We are already surrendered to Him. We just do not know it. We know only when we awaken from our dream which we call waking. This is the only difference between an awakened individual and un-awakened individual. Awakened knows the truth that it is all One. Separation is an illusion created by mind.
You've chosen a belief that i do not accept as valid.. i have tested and scrutinized this belief, because at one time i wanted to believe it, but.. it is contradictory to what is actually happening, and inspires people to passionately make irrational and unverifiable statements as if those statements added any measure of validity.. word-play and illusion do not add validity to the belief that there is no freewill.. i chose to believe that there was no freewill, and after experiencing that belief i chose again, to accept and understand freewill as the actuality that it is..

Be well..

mattie

16-01-2012, 02:47 PM

It might be an assumption about how others look at energies that the planet or plants don’t have what is called free will.

The energies of the earth & things in nature such as plants may have more free will than we give them credit for. We humans tend to see everything from our perspective. The planet is a 9D (1-12D) energy. How energy acts is specific to its dimension. A plant may not think in the same way that we do, but we certainly don’t think in the same way that higher energies do either.

Our ego isn’t autonomous (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=219829#post219829). It is only what we CHOOSE to make it. There is no separation between our ego (individuality/self) & our life force (spirit/soul). It is an assumption that all humans are in conflict w/ their individuality, needing to free their self from it. Many have found great joy in honoring & treasuring their individuality.

There are many things that various spiritual leaders in different belief systems have said that isn’t exactly accurate. Or it may be that 95% of what an enlightened spiritual figure says is Spot On, but not 100%. The 5% that may bear examination doesn’t negate the 95% that they were correct about. Look back at what were accepted spiritual norms over history every, say, 500 years. Few buy into the vengeful God of 2000 years ago now, but for millennia, this was accepted as fact. Many views about religion that were accepted 500 years ago would be considered quite looney today (If they float, they’re a witch!).

One era’s enlightened master will be a heretic for those holding tightly to the prior era’s ideas that are changing or have already changed for many, & a visionary for those who are moving past them. This status can be very fluid. LOL. First different ideas are considered ludicrous or even evil (satanic), while in 50 years they can be considered a novel possibility & in 100 years entirely mainstream thought. In periods of rapid change such as we are in right now w/ shifting from the Piscean era to the Aquarian one this can be accelerated.

We have free will. That we are one aspect of a larger energy field doesn’t negate that this portion of it has free will. Various organized religions have peddled that we don’t have free will as this is useful to convince us to be dependent on them.

Beliefs are only problematic if one uses them to place rigid parameters up. A belief is neither negative or positive. Some beliefs are useful & empowering, some are limiting. They are what we actively choose. Many have beliefs that are nurturing & encourage exploration.

What do you feel the need to be set free from?
What do you see as limiting you from achieving this desired freedom?

krishna

16-01-2012, 02:53 PM

The planet earth does not have free will.
All humans have free will through the workings of the human ego.
Do not ever just accept.
However watch your intent==Karma.
In pure light and truth.
Krishna.

SerpentQueen

16-01-2012, 03:03 PM

What if free will is breathing correctly without altering it?

If we have free will then we should be able to choose to never stop breathing, and to never die.

When you can do that, get back to me, and I'll believe in free will.

When I use the term, I'm talking about ultimate grand destiny -- I'm not talking about the choices we make on a minute by minute, day to day basis. For example if your destiny is to die of lung cancer, even if you choose to never smoke, you may still wind up with lung cancer.

Yes we can alter the breath but we can't deliberately stop breathing altogether -- unless we commit suicide. But flip that around: can we choose to continue to breath and live forever? No.

TzuJanLi

16-01-2012, 03:43 PM

Greetings..

If we have free will then we should be able to choose to never stop breathing, and to never die.

When you can do that, get back to me, and I'll believe in free will.

When I use the term, I'm talking about ultimate grand destiny -- I'm not talking about the choices we make on a minute by minute, day to day basis. For example if your destiny is to die of lung cancer, even if you choose to never smoke, you may still wind up with lung cancer.

Yes we can alter the breath but we can't deliberately stop breathing altogether -- unless we commit suicide. But flip that around: can we choose to continue to breath and live forever? No.
Hi SQ: That's like like watching the Superbowl, and after it's over saying, "i knew the Mets were gonna win"?.. 'destiny' changes with each choice we make.. Life happens, and we are 'that which is happening', and.. we choose the way we Live this physical aspect of Life.. yes, we 'live forever', but not as this physical aspect of 'forever'..

Be well..

Humm

16-01-2012, 03:49 PM

If we have free will then we should be able to choose to never stop breathing, and to never die.

When you can do that, get back to me, and I'll believe in free will.

When I use the term, I'm talking about ultimate grand destiny -- I'm not talking about the choices we make on a minute by minute, day to day basis. For example if your destiny is to die of lung cancer, even if you choose to never smoke, you may still wind up with lung cancer.

Yes we can alter the breath but we can't deliberately stop breathing altogether -- unless we commit suicide. But flip that around: can we choose to continue to breath and live forever? No.

I see this a lot, and that is the confusion of free will with omnipotence. They are not the same thing.

Omnipotence is absolute power as a solitary holder of dominion. Free will means we manifest intention in a shared universe, where ALL hold influence over Form and each other.

We all can influence Form, but are also in turn affected by it and each other. With free will we can form our own intention and influence outcomes, but have to take into consideration our relationship with Form.

SerpentQueen

16-01-2012, 03:54 PM

Greetings..

Hi SQ: That's like like watching the Superbowl, and after it's over saying, "i knew the Mets were gonna win"?.. 'destiny' changes with each choice we make.. Life happens, and we are 'that which is happening', and.. we choose the way we Live this physical aspect of Life.. yes, we 'live forever', but not as this physical aspect of 'forever'..

Be well..

I'm not into sports at all, so you'll have to choose a different example!

How about this one: I was reading last night about how researchers have determined that 147 companies control pretty much everything:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceupbin/2011/10/22/the-147-companies-that-control-everything/

The question is: was this planned (conspiracy theory) or is it merely a factor of chaos theory in action, in which as complexity increases systems self-organize? If you believe in free will then it's a conspiracy theory. I find that unfathomable. If you believe in destiny, then it is fathomable that complex systems eventually self organize, and all those times individuals believe they are exercising free will, they really aren't. They are reacting in predictable ways that can even be mathematically modeled (here, I'm thinking about game theory). It just doesn't feel that way while you are down in the thick of things, and it's your own individual life and choice.

Please understand I'm not throwing my arms up and saying, "well, that's that, then! I have no choice. Might as well pack it in." Nope. I view the reality as way more interesting and fascinating than that.

SerpentQueen

16-01-2012, 04:00 PM

I see this a lot, and that is the confusion of free will with omnipotence. They are not the same thing.

Omnipotence is absolute power as a solitary holder of dominion. Free will means we manifest intention in a shared universe, where ALL hold influence over Form and each other.

We all can influence Form, but are also in turn affected by it and each other. With free will we can form our own intention and influence outcomes, but have to take into consideration our relationship with Form.

Yes, I agree with that. When faced with a choice, we often do not have unlimited options. Our options are narrowed down because of the situation we are in, and all the other factors and people depending on our choice. We do not operate in a vacuum.

Jyotir

16-01-2012, 04:59 PM

That is what the mind does - rationalize. But only after the fact?

As you point out - the 'being' makes the choice 'automatically', because of a predominant identification with (the consciousness of) the rationalizing mind - that's where the 'automatic' comes from. It is from a predisposition, habitual use of 'mind'/mental consciousness - the nature of which is to divide, compare, rationalize, reason. It is the mind then, which is actually in control of the being if the being automatically responds to the mind - i.e., conditioned.

It's like a man saying he is in 'control' of his life because he 'chose' to have a mistress - yet he drops everything and runs to her every time she calls him. In that case, it is the being which assents to, is in the service of desire, which is 'choosing' for the being. This is a fundamental problem of existence. People think they are 'in control', masters of their lives, when really they are stuck, enslaved to endless cycles of ignorant activity. They see the perpetually unsatisfying results of their "choices", and are continuously perplexed and confused - all because of this surface, conditioned identification with a partial, ignorant, 'shadow' reality.

Consciousness is not separate from the being, but unless and until the being identifies with consciousness beyond the ego-desire-mind it is 'trapped', 'swept along' in automatic responses to the so-called 'lower nature' (in some traditions "gunas") of which ego-desire-mind is a part, and of which the greater being is partially composed. It is a false, conditioned identification with the part of the being which is rooted in and operates by ignorance of 'true' selfI like framing the discussion around examples. You gave the example of a man who "chose" a mistress. I am in love with two men, my husband and the one I call my twin. I cannot "choose" my feelings when it comes to either of them. They are what they are. I can, however, choose my actions. If I wasn't in an open marriage, or if my husband requested it, I could limit my contact with twin, so that the overwhelming feelings of love and connection aren't continually fueled. Yes, that would be a "choice."

Except it's funny how, when I do that, when I focus only on my husband, when I lose myself in the moment with him, when I'm completely present and the love between us is flowing and twin is last thing on my mind... the universe seems to conspire to remind me of twin again. Universe can go to quite great & clever lengths, in fact.

I am either rationalizing after the fact.... or I am not in control and have only limited free will, which the universe is constantly making clear to me.

I don't believe I'm "stuck in endless cycles of ignorant activity" -- I'm quite mindful of it all, constantly questioning, which is what drives me batty. If I was to "surrender to pure consciousness," I'd be out of my marriage and on a plane in a flash. There have been several occasions in which I nearly did just that. But I didn't. I stopped myself, and I put my rational head back on. I'm not sure which action is me being the control freak -- staying in my marriage and stubbornly resisting the call of the universe to surrender and follow a different path? Or following that path and chalking it up to some grand "destiny" I had no choice but to follow?

These thoughts plague me daily, and hourly, awake and asleep....

Hi Serpent Queen,

I am neither inclined nor qualified to comment on your personal life as described above - or how it may apply to this topic relative to my last response. I would nevertheless encourage you to investigate the origins of any ambivalence, uncertainty or confusion regarding these matters, as there is some evidence of those concerns within your comments. Of course, many means are available to do that, but in my view the advantage of a spiritual approach is that it identifies and addresses root causes in the truest sense - and that was what my previous post(s) was attempting to point to.

~ J

Jyotir

16-01-2012, 05:03 PM

What do you feel the need to be set free from?
What do you see as limiting you from achieving this desired freedom?

Hi mattie,

To answer these questions, for me:

The notion that "ego is not problematic"

~ J

Lisa

16-01-2012, 05:17 PM

to answer these questions:
For me...

The notion that "ego is not problematic"

~ J

High Five! :smile:

lemex

16-01-2012, 07:59 PM

Hi Lemex

From where the intent arises? Is not it from consciousness? Intention of consciousness to menifest.
Let's look for the answer together. You choose. There are different states or levels of and to (being) consciousness. I didn't think explaining was necessary, it not complicated. Think of it as the mind is not a clean slate.

Many time we already are. That which we think preexist. Consciousness as Universe allows everything where you think of it in terms of right/wrong. You the body chooses. If you do not know your intention then that scares me. Then people don't know themselves nor can they take responsibility for themselves.

Think of it this way and this is all I am saying to consider, we think in such a way using the mind in which thought influences itself. You believe you think new thoughts each time you do what you consider thinking but the process can be passive. It is very difficult to understand you are within a loop. You are more likely to go the direction based on the probability of where your mind knows where to look within itself. That which is expected will first be looked to.

Gem

17-01-2012, 12:45 AM

Yes true but he didn't know his unconscious choice (the observer knows before him)

yea ... it's pretty amazing that the mind is working its choice from the moment of intention and the conscious volitional act is quite a long delay.

rsingh

17-01-2012, 01:29 AM

Origianally posted by TzuJanLi
You've chosen a belief that i do not accept as valid.. i have tested and scrutinized this belief, because at one time i wanted to believe it, but.. it is contradictory to what is actually happening, and inspires people to passionately make irrational and unverifiable statements as if those statements added any measure of validity.. word-play and illusion do not add validity to the belief that there is no freewill.. i chose to believe that there was no freewill, and after experiencing that belief i chose again, to accept and understand freewill as the actuality that it is..

Hi TzuJanLi

Can you choose your next thought? Look into your mind. Observe your mind and see if you can choose your next thought. Do not dig any philosphical answer to this question? Actually try to look into your mind and see if you can choose your next thought. It will be very powerful start on your spiritual development journey.

Thoughts happen automaticaly. We conclude that we have created a thought after thought has occured which is an illusion. If you observe your consciousness then you will find that it is only our attention which we can put it wherever we want to. We can put attention on our past memory and pick up a thought from the memory. We can also put our attention on future and imagine our future. Attention arises from consciousness. So it is consciousness which is playing the game. The game is the game of evolution. Human being got created by this force of evolution. Evolution is happening auotmatically and it is ongoing process. Humans do not have any power of their own. They are driven by nature as are other animals but humans have capability to go beyond their nature and find truth. Let us utilize our capabilty and find the truth. Truth cannot be understood, it can only be realised and it can be realised directly by consciousness. It cannot be realised by mind. Mind has only a perspective. Mind cannot see whole simultanously. Consciousnes can percieve whole or truth.

Gem

17-01-2012, 02:07 AM

Hi TzuJanLi

Can you choose your next thought? Look into your mind. Observe your mind and see if you can choose your next thought.

I can intend to think something and produce that thought. Intent is prior to thought. Intent directs where you place attention, and can run free or be consciously controlled and intencified with concentration, but mostly it's a matter of curiosity isn't it?

Thoughts happen automaticaly. We conclude that we have created a thought after thought has occured which is an illusion. If you observe your consciousness then you will find that it is only our attention which we can put it wherever we want to. We can put attention on our past memory and pick up a thought from the memory. We can also put our attention on future and imagine our future. Attention arises from consciousness. So it is consciousness which is playing the game. The game is the game of evolution. Human being got created by this force of evolution. Evolution is happening auotmatically and it is ongoing process. Humans do not have any power of their own. They are driven by nature as are other animals but humans have capability to go beyond their nature and find truth. Let us utilize our capabilty and find the truth. Truth cannot be understood, it can only be realised and it can be realised directly by consciousness. It cannot be realised by mind. Mind has only a perspective. Mind cannot see whole simultanously. Consciousnes can percieve whole or truth.

Again, intend to attend to breath, now see if you can alter it, then see if you can concentrate the attention, feel how you flex the mind like a muscle?

TzuJanLi

17-01-2012, 04:11 AM

Greetings..

Hi TzuJanLi

Can you choose your next thought? Look into your mind. Observe your mind and see if you can choose your next thought. Do not dig any philosphical answer to this question? Actually try to look into your mind and see if you can choose your next thought. It will be very powerful start on your spiritual development journey.

Thoughts happen automaticaly. We conclude that we have created a thought after thought has occured which is an illusion. If you observe your consciousness then you will find that it is only our attention which we can put it wherever we want to. We can put attention on our past memory and pick up a thought from the memory. We can also put our attention on future and imagine our future. Attention arises from consciousness. So it is consciousness which is playing the game. The game is the game of evolution. Human being got created by this force of evolution. Evolution is happening auotmatically and it is ongoing process. Humans do not have any power of their own. They are driven by nature as are other animals but humans have capability to go beyond their nature and find truth. Let us utilize our capabilty and find the truth. Truth cannot be understood, it can only be realised and it can be realised directly by consciousness. It cannot be realised by mind. Mind has only a perspective. Mind cannot see whole simultanously. Consciousnes can percieve whole or truth.
Hi rsingh: Yes, Yes i can choose my next thought, and the one after that, too, but.. sometimes i am surprised, thoughts just happen spontaneously, 'insight' and 'intuitions'.. look, you keep arguing for no freewill, it's what you have chosen to do, just as i have chosen to live with freewill.. however you choose to try to justify your beliefs about no freewill, i have irrefutable evidence of freewill, so.. until you can 'walk a mile in my shoes', you will have no success convincing me that your choice to believe in no freewill is valid..

'Mind' can and does perceive and understand it 'all' occasionally, though it is less gifted at articulating its understandings.. if you will simply let the mind be still and quiet, rather that making-up all those stories, you will 'see' the brilliant simplicity of 'it all', an instant of understanding... don't be distracted by 'truths', they come and go...

Be well..

rsingh

17-01-2012, 08:33 AM

Origianlly posted by TzuJanLi
if you will simply let the mind be still and quiet, rather that making-up all those stories, you will 'see' the brilliant simplicity of 'it all', an instant of understanding... don't be distracted by 'truths', they come and go...

Hi TzuJanLi

Can you still your mind? Stilling of mind means no mind. If you can still your mind then you know the truth. Then you are aware of consciousness. Then I do not need to discuss anything with you. I have to just accept all that you say. But all the enlightened masters who stilled their minds does not seem to agree with you for your views on free will.

Gem

17-01-2012, 09:45 AM

Hi TzuJanLi

Can you still your mind? Stilling of mind means no mind. If you can still your mind then you know the truth. Then you are aware of consciousness. Then I do not need to discuss anything with you. I have to just accept all that you say. But all the enlightened masters who stilled their minds does not seem to agree with you for your views on free will.

Isn't it just the observing of the facets of attention intention concentration decision and volition?

What are we to say now? That none of them exist?

TzuJanLi

17-01-2012, 02:11 PM

Greetings..

Hi TzuJanLi

Can you still your mind? Stilling of mind means no mind. If you can still your mind then you know the truth. Then you are aware of consciousness. Then I do not need to discuss anything with you. I have to just accept all that you say. But all the enlightened masters who stilled their minds does not seem to agree with you for your views on free will.
Hi rsingh: Yes, yes i can let my mind be still and silent.. why do you confuse the issue, stilling the mind means stilling the mind, when the water is 'still' it is clear and transparent, and the water is still there.. "no mind", is the absence of mind, and that isn't so.. Zen, refers to "empty mind", still, quiet, observant..

Just for the record, there are no 'Enlightened Masters'.. there are only people that want them to be that.. some of the people you call 'Enlightened Masters' do agree with me, but that's not important.. why do you say 'all' enlightened masters? do you think you know 'all' enlightened beings? what is 'your' criteria for 'enlightened'? Can you let these beliefs go?

Be well..

Gracey

17-01-2012, 02:16 PM

TzuJanLi

17-01-2012, 02:21 PM

Greetings..

i dream a lot and write them down, over 90 percent of them come to pass. to me this tells me that we do not have free will. the other 10 percent are telepathic or problem solving, fantasy and so on. free will is an illusion. this is where i am at with this at this time, if my experience ever tells me different then i will change my view, until then no humans words will ever convince me otherwise.
If if dream i'm going to eat banana pudding tomorrow, then tomorrow i make banana pudding and eat it, i chose to act-out the dream, a self-fulfilling prophesy.. and, it's good that you have the freewill to 'choose' to remain convinced..

Be well..

Gem

17-01-2012, 02:22 PM

Humm

17-01-2012, 02:32 PM

i dream a lot and write them down, over 90 percent of them come to pass. to me this tells me that we do not have free will. the other 10 percent are telepathic or problem solving, fantasy and so on. free will is an illusion. this is where i am at with this at this time, if my experience ever tells me different then i will change my view, until then no humans words will ever convince me otherwise.
Prophecy in general presents very interesting questions about free will. To me, however, the question really is 'what is prophecy'.

Spirituality is called the Unitive perspective for a good reason - it describes the fundamental interconnection everything in the universe shares. IMO, prophecy is a manifestation in consciousness of this Unitive interconnectivity.

All events can be seen to have inertia - the energy of a body in motion that keeps that body in motion unless acted upon by another energy in some way. Some events can be said to have a strong inertia, being very likely to come to fruition without a very strong counteracting energy; whereas other events can be said to have a weak inertia, meaning it won't take very much counteracting energy to keep the event from coming to fruition.

Prophecies are like this, IMO. I have also had prophetic dreams, some of which come true and some don't. IMO, these are ALL actual prognostications of possible events, as 'sensed' from the Unitive spiritual perspective, and attached to each event is a certain inertia that drives the likelihood of each premonition to come to actual fruition - to actually happen.

Sometimes the inertia is enouight to make the premonition come true. Sometimes, an interfering energy - perhaps caused by someone's free will, but just as likely coming from another source, keeps premonition from coming true. In any case, the future is NOT set until it actually comes to pass - until it actually happens, becoming the shape of Form that is Now.

So what of the spiritual principle that Spirit is beyond time - that it is eternal? I think this 'eternity' is actually NOW - a Now that can be seen as echoing all the way into the past and all the way into the future, but is really just the Eternal Now, as described in some literature. The past doesn't really exist, except in the current state of Form, echoing all the way back to the beginning, and the future doesn't exist either, except as an echo of the current state of Form into the future. In prophecy, what we are actually sensing is the 'echoing' of the current state of Form into the future - and when our premonitions do not come to pass, that means that some interfering energy has succeeded in disturbing it's inertia enough to keep that possible future event from coming to pass.

Arcane I know - but that's the way it goes! :tongue:

Gracey

17-01-2012, 02:36 PM

Greetings..

If if dream i'm going to eat banana pudding tomorrow, then tomorrow i make banana pudding and eat it, i chose to act-out the dream, a self-fulfilling prophesy.. and, it's good that you have the freewill to 'choose' to remain convinced..

Be well..

and so i have 4 dreams about having twins, then 5 years later i have twins, not a self fulling prophesy, these are the kinds of dreams i am talking about.

Gracey

17-01-2012, 02:38 PM

Prophecy in general presents very interesting questions about free will. To me, however, the question really is 'what is prophecy'.

Spirituality is called the Unitive perspective for a good reason - it describes the fundamental interconnection everything in the universe shares. IMO, prophecy is a manifestation in consciousness of this Unitive interconnectivity.

All events can be seen to have inertia - the energy of a body in motion that keeps that body in motion unless acted upon by another energy in some way. Some events can be said to have a strong inertia, being very likely to come to fruition without a very strong counteracting energy; whereas other events can be said to have a weak inertia, meaning it won't take very much counteracting energy to keep the event from coming to fruition.

Prophecies are like this, IMO. I have also had prophetic dreams, some of which come true and some don't. IMO, these are ALL actual prognostications of possible events, as 'sensed' from the Unitive spiritual perspective, and attached to each event is a certain inertia that drives the likelihood of each premonition to come to actual fruition - to actually happen.

Sometimes the inertia is enouight to make the premonition come true. Sometimes, an interfering energy - perhaps caused by someone's free will, but just as likely coming from another source, keeps premonition from coming true. In any case, the future is NOT set until it actually comes to pass - until it actually happens, becoming the shape of Form that is Now.

So what of the spiritual principle that Spirit is beyond time - that it is eternal? I think this 'eternity' is actually NOW - a Now that can be seen as echoing all the way into the past and all the way into the future, but is really just the Eternal Now, as described in some literature. The past doesn't really exist, except in the current state of Form, echoing all the way back to the beginning, and the future doesn't exist either, except as an echo of the current state of Form into the future. In prophecy, what we are actually sensing is the 'echoing' of the current state of Form into the future - and when our premonitions do not come to pass, that means that some interfering energy has succeeded from keeping that possible future event coming to pass.

Arcane I know - but that's the way it goes! :tongue:

I understand your line of thought, in all respects i disagree.

Humm

17-01-2012, 02:40 PM

I understand your line of thought, in all respects i disagree.
Just a feeling?

Gracey

17-01-2012, 02:44 PM

Just a feeling?

hummmmm.....I don't understand your question. :smile:

Fixing to go out to get haircuts, pick up the conversation later if it is here to pick up with you. I did not dream about this, so I dont know what will happen. hah ha ha

Humm

17-01-2012, 02:48 PM

hummmmm.....I don't understand your question. :smile:

Fixing to go out to get haircuts, pick up the conversation later if it is here to pick up with you. I did not dream about this, so I dont know what will happen. hah ha ha
What I mean is I have tried to lay a clear rational and reasoning for what I said - so to just say 'I disagree' is, well, a little vague. :tongue:

So, I was suggesting a reason for your view - that perhaps it is just a feeling that it is wrong, or something you are intuiting - which I will not reject outright, it is after all just my understanding, my view - but I was curious.

Good luck at the salon. :smile:

TzuJanLi

17-01-2012, 02:54 PM

Greetings..

and so i have 4 dreams about having twins, then 5 years later i have twins, not a self fulling prophesy, these are the kinds of dreams i am talking about.
Do you understand the power of intention? if a placebo can cure cancer (and it 'can' and has), you can intend twins.. it is entirely possible that the dream inspired the intention.. and, it is not the glimpse of an existing future, but.. the inspiration to create your future in a particular 'way'..

Be well..

Gracey

17-01-2012, 05:02 PM

Greetings..

Do you understand the power of intention? if a placebo can cure cancer (and it 'can' and has), you can intend twins.. it is entirely possible that the dream inspired the intention.. and, it is not the glimpse of an existing future, but.. the inspiration to create your future in a particular 'way'..

Be well..

well, i understand what you are saying. and if this were so, i am responsible for a lot of things, a lot of deaths, a lot of births, a war, natural disasters and so on. and this just does not feel right to me. so i still stick with what your signature says.

Gracey

17-01-2012, 05:05 PM

What I mean is I have tried to lay a clear rational and reasoning for what I said - so to just say 'I disagree' is, well, a little vague. :tongue:

So, I was suggesting a reason for your view - that perhaps it is just a feeling that it is wrong, or something you are intuiting - which I will not reject outright, it is after all just my understanding, my view - but I was curious.

Good luck at the salon. :smile:

a feeling, not so much, i did not feel what you were saying because it is not my experience. i remember my time before my birth and it was not my will to be born, that feeling i remember and that is what i know and experience to be truth, at least my truth.

Humm

17-01-2012, 05:07 PM

a feeling, not so much, i did not feel what you were saying because it is not my experience. i remember my time before my birth and it was not my will to be born, that feeling i remember and that is what i know and experience to be truth, at least my truth.
Why do you feel you were born if you didn't want to, if I may ask?

Gracey

17-01-2012, 05:11 PM

Why do you feel you were born if you didn't want to, if I may ask?

you are wondering what my purpose is? beats me. i was not told why i would be born. but i do remember a joy like no other before i was told and it is my goal to feel that more often than not while in this bag of bones.

Humm

17-01-2012, 05:15 PM

you are wondering what my purpose is? beats me. i was not told why i would be born. but i do remember a joy like no other before i was told and it is my goal to feel that more often than not while in this bag of bones.
Thank you for your reply.

I am not saying 'free will' is the ultimate condition. I don't think it is. I do think we have free will with certain heavy qualifications - as differentiated from omnipotence, as I layed out in another post.

In a way, I think our existence is always the answer to a 'higher' call, for lack of a better term, whether or not we agree with it or look forward to it. I think your recollection is very valuable for illustrating that possibility.

Gracey

17-01-2012, 05:21 PM

Your theories could be true, just so as could be mine. Mysterious being we are. I like it!

Humm

17-01-2012, 05:24 PM

Your theories could be true, just so as could be mine. Mysterious being we are. I like it!

So true! - though I would like to understand more of just how our theories differ. :smile:

Eudaimonist

17-01-2012, 05:55 PM

So we perceive that we have freedom in certain areas while we do not have freedom in other areas. But is it true? It could be true if our perceptions are true. But we know that our perceptions are not true. Our perceptions are conditioned by our past.

That is NOT a reason to believe that our perceptions are not true. Our perceptions may be "conditioned" in an accurate way.

It is primarily human ego that does not want to accept that we do not have a free will. Human ego likes to have free will and it will do everything to break limitation imposed on its free will. Every human being is yearning to free himself as much as he can.

This is just begging the question. You are assuming that which you assert.

Almost all of the enlightened masters say that there is no such thing as free will.

So? That is just an Argument from Authority.

Whose free will? Who we are? We are consciousness and there is only one consciousness. The consciousness is an observer. How an observer can have a free will?

How can it not have free will?

Creation has already happened and it is programmed to move into future in a pre-determined manner.

So says you. It may also have created free willed beings.

In other words there is collective mind of the universe.

It is not clear that even a collective mind of the universe means that individuals don't have free will.

Individual minds are subsets of the collective mind and move in accordance with the collective mind. Individuals do not have any power to move on their own. So no individual has any free will.

This is a mere assertion. It doesn't actually prove anything.

Do we have to agree with enlightened masters? No we do not have to agree or disagree with them.

Well, it is one or the other. :)

Only truth can set us free.

If we don't have free will, we aren't free.

eudaimonia,

Mark

Gracey

17-01-2012, 06:13 PM

So true! - though I would like to understand more of just how our theories differ. :smile:

ah in the end we will just find our similarities. :hug3: Enjoy the rest of your day Humm.

Humm

17-01-2012, 06:15 PM

ah in the end we will just find our similarities. :hug3: Enjoy the rest of your day Humm.
I like the way you think. :angel1:

Thanks Gracey - you enjoy the rest of your day too. :hug:

Mountain-Goat

17-01-2012, 08:31 PM

The game is the game of evolution. Human being got created by this force of evolution. Evolution is happening auotmatically and it is ongoing process. Humans do not have any power of their own. They are driven by nature as are other animals but humans have capability to go beyond their nature and find truth. Let us utilize our capabilty and find the truth. No need to, you have already declared the truth about reality.
The game is the game of evolution. Human being got created by this force of evolution. Evolution is happening auotmatically and it is ongoing process. Humans do not have any power of their own. They are driven by nature as are other animals but humans have capability to go beyond their nature and find truth. Let us utilize our capabilty and find the truth. Soo, your previous declaration regarding the truth about reality was incorrect?

Mountain-Goat

17-01-2012, 08:44 PM

Hi TzuJanLi

Can you still your mind? Stilling of mind means no mind.
Like Tzu said, two differen things, Still mind is still mind. No mind is no mind.
If you can still your mind then you know the truth.
But all the enlightened masters who stilled their minds does not seem to agree with you for your views on free will.
If two stilled minds disagree then your conclusion that stilling the mind allows one to see truth is incorrect.
Either that or you don't believe Tzu or the disagreeing enlightened masters have stilled minds.
Or you simply believe your perception regarding still mind, Tzu's opinion and enlightened masters is truth.

rsingh

18-01-2012, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by TzuJanLi
Hi rsingh: Yes, yes i can let my mind be still and silent.. why do you confuse the issue, stilling the mind means stilling the mind, when the water is 'still' it is clear and transparent, and the water is still there.. "no mind", is the absence of mind, and that isn't so.. Zen, refers to "empty mind", still, quiet, observant..

Hi TzuJanLi

I guess lot of our conversation is due to miss-interpretation of the meaning of the words. What you call still mind is not the same as I call still mind? What you call choosing next thought is not the same as I call choosing next thought. What you call that we have a choice is not the same that I call we have a choice. May be what you call we do not have free will is not the same as I call we do not have free will.

We need to have same dictionary to have a sensible conversation. Meanings you give to various words is very different than the meanings I drive from the same words. We may have to define primary words that we use in our conversations to have a sensible conversation. Even in spiritual circless same words have been defined diffrently by different authors. Soul have different meaning in different religions. Mind have different meaning by different authors and so on. This is not new. Lot of misunderstanding happening around in this world is due to different interpretation of the words we use.

Just for the record, there are no 'Enlightened Masters'.. there are only people that want them to be that.. some of the people you call 'Enlightened Masters' do agree with me, but that's not important.. why do you say 'all' enlightened masters? do you think you know 'all' enlightened beings? what is 'your' criteria for 'enlightened'? Can you let these beliefs go?

Here below is a link to a list of enlightened masters:

http://www3.telus.net/public/sarlo/RatingsR.htm

Masters have been grared according to their harmony with the divine on this website. You may go through their teachings and check validity of your beliefs, philiosophy and practices.

TzuJanLi

18-01-2012, 02:18 AM

Greetings..

Hi TzuJanLi

I guess lot of our conversation is due to miss-interpretation of the meaning of the words. What you call still mind is not the same as I call still mind? What you call choosing next thought is not the same as I call choosing next thought. What you call that we have a choice is not the same that I call we have a choice. May be what you call we do not have free will is not the same as I call we do not have free will.

We need to have same dictionary to have a sensible conversation. Meanings you give to various words is very different than the meanings I drive from the same words. We may have to define primary words that we use in our conversations to have a sensible conversation. Even in spiritual circless same words have been defined diffrently by different authors. Soul have different meaning in different religions. Mind have different meaning by different authors and so on. This is not new. Lot of misunderstanding happening around in this world is due to different interpretation of the words we use.

Here below is a link to a list of enlightened masters:

http://www3.telus.net/public/sarlo/RatingsR.htm

Masters have been grared according to their harmony with the divine on this website. You may go through their teachings and check validity of your beliefs, philiosophy and practices.
Hi rsingh: No disrespect intended, but.. i am not interested in a 'master's rating service'.. even a cursory review reveals an inherent bias.. i simply have no use for subjective hierarchical descriptors like 'enlightened', the term serves the meanings people want it to have.. and, it has no self-evident or consensus experiential meaning..

So, with that term out of the way, are there any others you would like to clarify?

Still mind: No active thought processes..

Choosing: From among the available options, the freedom to choose, even to disregard consequences..

Next thought: the one after this thought.. some are chosen, some are not, a balance..

Freewill: The freedom to exercise your will.. fear of consequences is not cause to reject 'freewill', it is exercising your freedom to choose comfort, convenience or irresponsibility..

Be well..

Be well..

Mr Interesting

18-01-2012, 08:34 AM

Yup... five pages of returning the penny, as in flipping it over and over and over...

"No, this is heads... flip, no this is heads"

Nah... I really do like Tzu's passion to get his point across and I often find very useful stuff within that so I think it's a good thing and it really is hard road always standin' up to be counted and risked the slings and arrows... much easier to chuck them than take them.

And often we forget that what is said isn't always the real issue so much as being brave enough to get in the fight, make mistakes and learn from them.

I'm not defending you Tzu... I'm defending your right to be you! (though I'm sure you don't need defending.. I'm a fan of solidarity)

Oh, do we have free will... maybe, but I'm inclined to try and listen closely and do what I'm told.

rsingh

18-01-2012, 09:12 AM

Law of Karma states that every cause has an effect. So every effect has a cause. Resulting effect will become cause for another event and so on the chain goes. Whole universe is a chain of cause and effects. Whole universe is connected. There is no isolated event or incident. Whole cosmos is in order and follows certain laws. Every movement in the universe is governed by certain laws. All these laws are under the umbrella of primary law of cause and effect.

Here below is the link to Youtube video on Law of Karma:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZX8QSdJ9go

Similarly all human beings are conditioned by their past. This conditioning is genetic followed by conditioning in this life. Every human being can react to given circumstances only in one most likely manner based on his past conditioning. That is what we do whole of our life. We react to circumstances in most likely manner . So our whole life is pre-determined. So we do not have any free-will. Here below is the quote from famous Hindu scripture:

"Do your action and do not expect fruits of your action, because fruit will follow automatically to your action by the will of God" - Geeta

So it is not only our consciousness that does not have free will but our form does not have free will as well. Consciousness cannot have free will because it is just an observer. Here below are few quotes by enlightened masters:

"Whatever is going to happen, will happen, no body can change it" - Ramana Maharishi

"Whatever this moment is, is , it cannot be otherwise" - Eckhart Tolle

"Follow the order of Divine, because this order is pre-destined with you" - Guru Nanak

These law of Karma and law of conditioning were described by Hindu enlightened masters thousands of years ago but they never emphasized on them because it cannot be understood by human mind. Conditioned human perceptions and conditioned human mind can only have a perspective. Human mind cannot see the whole simultaneously. To see the whole simultaneously we have to perceive from consciousness. All the enlightened masters emphasized on methods of perceiving the reality. So every enlightened master in the history, developed methods based on the culture at that time. Few hundred years ago devotion was most popular method used in India. Devotion is based on our feeling of love. Later on as humans became more mind oriented, then self enquiry became more popular. Currently teacher are including bit of science in their lectures and observing presence seem to be more popular. All the time enlightened masters have been emphasizing on methods for realization rather than explaining truth because truth cannot be explained in words and if explained it cannot be understood. So those who are ready for awakening are just attracted to enlightened masters. They would not listen to enlightened masters if they listen to their minds. So I am talking from my heart and those whose heart resonates with me will respond positively, others will not. Not many persons agreed with enlightened masters also.

Here below are more quotes by enlightened masters:

"Whatever is going to happen, has already happened" - Jack O'keefe

"Your destiny is stamped on you at the time of conception" - Ramesh Baleskar

SerpentQueen

18-01-2012, 03:25 PM

Greetings..

Hi rsingh: No disrespect intended, but.. i am not interested in a 'master's rating service'.. even a cursory review reveals an inherent bias.. i simply have no use for subjective hierarchical descriptors like 'enlightened', the term serves the meanings people want it to have.. and, it has no self-evident or consensus experiential meaning..

So, with that term out of the way, are there any others you would like to clarify?

Still mind: No active thought processes..

Choosing: From among the available options, the freedom to choose, even to disregard consequences..

Next thought: the one after this thought.. some are chosen, some are not, a balance..

Freewill: The freedom to exercise your will.. fear of consequences is not cause to reject 'freewill', it is exercising your freedom to choose comfort, convenience or irresponsibility..

Be well..

Be well..

It's like this... we live in a multiverse in which every possible choice has been made. From the eternal NOW one can see all these parallel realities, branching off where each choice (big or little) was made. In one of these realities, I never stopped smoking and now I have lung cancer. In another, I never married, have no children, still live in my home state, have a different career entirely, and live all alone with a pile of cats. In yet another, I decided to try that meth and today I'm a homeless drug addict with rotting teeth, turning tricks to get my next fix. In another, I never dropped out of my exercise habit and have just completed my 10th marathon. In another, I walked out of my house this morning and got hit by a bus. Etc, etc, etc... there's probably a timeline out there in which someone's already discovered the cure to death and we live on forever. Someone's found an alternative to oil and we have free energy....

You name it, it exists somewhere. Every possibility. Every moment we make a choice, no matter how small or large, a new timeline is created. In this way, yes, we have choice, and from the perspective of the Eternal Now, you can see the eventual outcome of that choice, and where it led, the consequences for better or for worse.

But the reality for us is that we only know and experience and live in the timeline we are currently on. The single cat lady "me" has no concept of the "me" who got married and had children.

Choosing: From among the available options, the freedom to choose, even to disregard consequences..

The key word here is "available." The never-stopped-smoking "me" who now has lung cancer, can't choose to undo the cancer, but can decide among various options for cancer treatment.

Freewill: The freedom to exercise your will.. fear of consequences is not cause to reject 'freewill', it is exercising your freedom to choose comfort, convenience or irresponsibility..

Yes, in that definition we have free will. But it is limited by the available options. Can the "me" that tried meth rewind time and undo that crucial decision? Is "jumping on to another timeline entirely" an option? Maybe it is... I personally love the idea of a magical universe. :smile: But it doesn't seem so from where I sit, on this timeline, except in my imagination.

However, take a step back and look again at this big picture: all those branching and different, parallel realities. Perhaps there's one "ideal" reality, in which every ideal choice was made, creating an ideal reality. In this reality, death has been cured, energy is free, we all live in peace and harmony, there is no such thing as war or suffering, and I run marathons.

That reality is happening, whether I am experiencing that timeline, or not. In that way, there is no free will. If you view it from the eternal now, where there is no past, present or future, that optimal story has already been written. I'm just not living and experiencing the optimal version-- I'm apparently stuck on a timeline that needed to be written so we'd see how it would play out, and know it wasn't the ideal way to go. I'm living a rejected version of the story, it got crumpled up and thrown on the editing floor. :icon_eek:

Exercising my "free will" may get me closer towards optimal in the life I am experiencing -- as you say, I can choose comfort and convenience -- but is it within my power to jump to that timeline entirely? If you say yes, then yes, there is absolute and total free will. If you say no, then there is free will -- but only within limits of available choices.

And those choices include everyone else's choices, not just my own. In this timeline, I can't choose to live forever because science funding was limited and the cure for death was and will never be discovered. In this timeline, the corporations run the government so discovery of unlimited free energy isn't going to happen in time for humans to save themselves from global warming.

But I am also saying it goes deeper than that. In this timeline, I was born with a certain temperament, which was solidified by a certain upbringing. These factors have very much shaped the decisions I have made, and every decision (whether made with full awareness, or not) has created another branch, closing off possibilities behind me. On the plus side, because I chose to quit smoking, I will not get lung cancer. But once I smoked that first cig as a teen (because I am of the temperament which must test authority and learn for myself why smoking is "wrong"), I was no longer on the "non-smoker" track and will forever after be on the "ex-smoker" track only. Had I been born with asthma, or with a different temperament that listened to adults and didn't have a need to question them, then I could be on the non-smoker track -- and so many other things may be very different about my life.

So I am saying I agree with you Tzu, and your view is sound for those experiencing this life. Might as well believe you have choice, and make the best choices possible to optimize the life you are experiencing.

But our free will only goes so far, and if there is an optimal reality -- which I believe there is -- then the story (all stories) have already been written. Which means free will is limited to available options, and other people's choices, and ultimately, it is a grand illusion. The universe has already tried and tested everything; it knows the optimal version. I am relegated to living out this timeline only, and making the best of it.

TzuJanLi

18-01-2012, 05:14 PM

Greetings..

The universe has already tried and tested everything; it knows the optimal version. I am relegated to living out this timeline only, and making the best of it.
Not so much, based on my own experiences.. we ARE the Universe "trying and testing".. it's like the surface of an ever expanding 'bubble'.. inside the the bubble is the 'past', the structure of what has already occurred.. the surface of the bubble is 'Now', it is Creation expanding into the infinite unmanifested potential of eternity.. we/us/Life are the surface of that 'bubble', the vehicle through which the unknown is made known, through which the unmanifested becomes reality.. yes, other places of the surface might be the 'other timelines' you speak of, but.. we are here, 'Now'..

Be well..

SerpentQueen

18-01-2012, 05:58 PM

Greetings..

Not so much, based on my own experiences.. we ARE the Universe "trying and testing".. it's like the surface of an ever expanding 'bubble'.. inside the the bubble is the 'past', the structure of what has already occurred.. the surface of the bubble is 'Now', it is Creation expanding into the infinite unmanifested potential of eternity.. we/us/Life are the surface of that 'bubble', the vehicle through which the unknown is made known, through which the unmanifested becomes reality.. yes, other places of the surface might be the 'other timelines' you speak of, but.. we are here, 'Now'..

Be well..

In my experience, the inside of the bubble is not just the past -- it is the past, what you experience as the 'present' (as well as all your alternatives "you's" in parallel realities), and it is also the future. There is no time on the surface of the bubble: that's what is meant by the Eternal NOW. Rather than the "now" that I can experience by "living in the moment."

Because, as I have been saying over and over, humans cannot EVER live in the "now"-- our brains don't work that way. Our brains live in the now, and then edit and project back to us a replay of that moment. Humans live in the past, a past that is a microsecond or a blink behind the real "now."

When you dream, there is no time. This is when you are on the surface of the bubble. A dream can seem like an eon, when it was only 2 minutes of REM time. A dream can go into to the future and play around in the past. Meditation (going inward) may induce such a state as well. Syncs, telepathy, dejavu, precognition give you glimpses of the surface, a peek behind the veil.

That said, I like to entertain the idea that we really are way more powerful than we can ever imagine. That yes, we can manifest -- not the unmanifested -- but what has already manifested. We can jump timelines. Or, to put it another way, if we get things "right" in this timeline, everything in the past is resolved and healed as well.... we already do this on an individual and personal level, when healing our past hurts. Imagine what we might be able to do if we did it on a more global and interconnected scale?

Just the sort of things my way-too-busy mind likes to mull over....