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Shalimar
03-01-2012, 08:00 PM
I’m reading the book “Wicca by Scott Cunningham” from what I gathered online, it is “the” book to read if you want to know about the Wicca path. Now, the problem with books is that you can’t interact and ask questions…When I read the chapter on Deities some questions rose up.

I could relate to what he says to a certain point, like for me, yeah, you commune with God in the nature, “living in nature makes every moment a ritual…communicating with animals, plants, and trees…”, “the Goddess and God”, until…. “When envisioning the Goddess and God, many Wicca see them as well-known deities from ancient religions.” Then, he goes on listing the names of diverse Gods and Goddesses, but he excludes from his list “Yahweh”.
Isn’t He also the personification of God? Why can’t He be included in the Wicca path? :confused:

“The Wicca acknowledges a supreme divine power, unknowable, ultimate, from which the entire universe sprang….personified into 2 basics beings: the Goddess and the God."

Though “Yahweh” has often been misrepresented, The Hebrew Scriptures give a “picture” that for me fit with “Creator and God”. Some even say that the God of the Hebrew Scriptures is actually not just “The Father” as tradition proclaims, but “Father God and Mother God” and that together with their Son (known as Master Yeshua who took flesh among mankind) they created everything. This is the God and Goddess that I relate to, and this is what visibly makes me stand out the Wicca path (and Christianity, Judaism probably too...)
Even if for many other things I’m finding out in the end, that without knowing the Wicca or calling myself a “Wiccan”, I have been walking on that path. In other words, from what I read on the forum (to quote just few recent threads “born a Witch, being a Witch, I am a Witch”), the “shoe” fits pretty well.

Now, don’t get me wrong, this thread didn’t originate from the need to attach myself to a certain group; like some Christians who hook up with a certain denomination and will do everything by the “book” of that denomination because they are afraid of being rejected by relatives or friends (I’m not “picking” on Christians, God knows I have dear friends and relatives who are Christians. I use them as example because I know about them).
I don’t “need to be part of a group” to feel good about myself and my path. Moreover, I’m what some call “a free bird, a free spirit”, so if one would tell me “Sorry, but to be a Wiccan you must personify God the way we do and pick one among those listed in S. Cunningham book”, I’d just say “No, thanks”, because my spiritual path is part of who I am and I can’t be and do not desire to be someone else.

I am asking the question because what I read puzzled me, as the impression I’ve got was that the Wicca path isn’t locked up in a box like the mainstream religions; so it would not make sense that on the subject of God, one could not choose to relate to Yahweh/Father God and Mother God.

In closing I want to say that I respect anyone’s spiritual path and that my inquiry is sincere, with the goal of understanding Wicca and void of any prejudice. :hug3:

So here I leave the floor to all of you who are walking the Wicca path! :smile:

Peace :icon_flower:

norseman
03-01-2012, 08:23 PM
Just want to point out that Scott Cunningham was American and Wicca is British, steeped in British heritage and culture and originating out of British Traditional Witchcraft - that's all I have to say on that subject :D

Now to deities - The Lord and Lady, the Lady often seen as The Triple Goddess i.e. Maiden, Mother, Wise Woman. In my opinion, bringing in every pantheon under the sun is not a good thing, and is a source of amusement in some pagan quarters.

In fairness, I should add that I do not follow wicca. I am of the ancient tree of which wicca is just a new branch. My deity is simply Mother Earth.
It is also only fair to point out that there are major differences between UK and US wicca.

Animus27
03-01-2012, 10:02 PM
I am asking the question because what I read puzzled me, as the impression I’ve got was that the Wicca path isn’t locked up in a box like the mainstream religions; so it would not make sense that on the subject of God, one could not choose to relate to Yahweh/Father God and Mother God.
One of the principles of religions in general is that they have a system of belief that one must accept in order to identify with it. Wicca is, originally, a initiatory mystery religion centered around a goddess & god (who do have names in traditional covens, but their names are only revealed to initiates). Scott Cunningham is one of the founding fathers of modern Neo-Wicca that's based off more exoteric interpretations of Wiccish beliefs and practices, but it's a slightly different creature from traditional Wiccan sects.

You don't HAVE to believe in his interpretation. His writing is not reflective of all of Wiccadom. Take his book as an experienced opinion, not as Holy Writing.

Also, it's not very wise to equal all conceptions with a father deity to Yahweh. There are many patriarchal gods who are definitely not Yahweh.

Shalimar
04-01-2012, 12:19 AM
Also, it's not very wise to equal all conceptions with a father deity to Yahweh. There are many patriarchal gods who are definitely not Yahweh.

Yes, you're right I read about other father deities. I said "Yahweh" because this is who I relate to. In other words, He is the one for me..

So from what you and Norseman said S. Cunningham book is not "The" book explaining Wicca as some say. I didn't know about the fact that Wicca originated in UK and that the US didn't adopt the path exactly as it is over there, like Norseman said. Thanks for all these info :smile:

To go back to my question, is Yahweh God incompatible with the US version of the Wicca path (as at least some who follow in S. Cunningham footsteps visibly pick and choose in a Pantheon of Gods and Goddesses) and if so, why?

(please, don't limit yourself to the question, if you have some to share about your path like Norseman and Animus27 did, thanks to write about it. I am very much interested in knowing more about this path)

Peace :hug3:

Animus27
04-01-2012, 12:58 AM
To go back to my question, is Yahweh God incompatible with the US version of the Wicca path (as at least some who follow in S. Cunningham footsteps visibly pick and choose in a Pantheon of Gods and Goddesses) and if so, why?Well, is there a particular reason why you wish to identify Yahweh with the Horned God of Wicca? The worship of Yahweh has been a very exclusive one throughout most of it's history. That shows that he might not like sharing his position with other gods, from my POV anyway :smile:

But ultimately, in a duotheistic or polytheistic theology there is little prohibiting someone from using Yahweh as a name for the god in Wiccan religion. It's just slightly unusual given his tendency to be a jealous god, and the fact that new Wicca movements embrace various pantheons and gods.

ETA: Scott Cunningham is a well respected author in many Wiccan and Neopagan circles, but his works are hardly exhaustive or definitive. They are more like a stepping stone, from a particular viewpoint. No religion can be adequately summed up in a single book. So keep reading, cross reference and you'll get a good handle on what Wicca is about as long as you keep exploring and learning.

norseman
04-01-2012, 08:11 AM
Shalimar, I will share what I know about the founder of Wicca - Gerald Gardner who was British. A fact that is often glossed over is that he was an ordained christian priest.

Gardner was a complicated person. He did invent what is now 'Wicca', although he spelt it with one c. He threw it together as an amalgam of Freemasonry, Golden Dawn, Qabala, Rosicrucianism and Aleister Crowley's teachings, as well as the practical stuff from the New Forest Coven.

Dorothy Clutterbuck was long thought to be an invention of Gardner, but intensive searching has unearthed her Birth Certificate in the New Forest area.

This Coven is reputed to be the one which (with the blessing of the Powers that Were) performed ritual to stop the Invasion of mainland Britain by Hitler's troops during WW2. One member of the Coven died during this ritual, (whether by natural means or as a sacrifice nobody knows). This was still at a time when the Witchcraft Act was in force, it was not repealed until 1951, and the celebrated medium, Helen Duncan ,(erroneously called Britain's last Witch) was the last person prosecuted under that Act.

Wicca was Gardner's attempt to bring witchcraft into the open, in a ritual form which would be acceptable to the masses.

Witchcraft itself, the Craft of the Wisewoman and Cunning Man, is as old as the hills themselves, being shamanistic in origin, but Wicca is 'Modern Witchcraft', and has little similarity to it's ancient forebear. There are wisewomen and cunning men still, but they tend to exist in the country rather than towns, quietly doing what they have always done.

Gardner himself was a paradox, he was an ordained Priest of one of the obscure CelticChristianChurches, and a confirmed Naturist, a member of the naturist club Spielplatz, which is still active today and has a website! He was friends with many of the occultists of the day, notably Philip Ross Nichols, (founder of the largest Druid Order in the world) who was also a Spielplatz member, and an ordained Priest of another CelticChurch. Together these two established the current Festival Cycle that Pagans now use, (It is a combination of the Agricultural Festivals which the Wiccans used, Samhain, Imbolc, Beltane and Lughnasadh, and the Solar observances of the Druids {Solstices and Equinoxes}).

Many of the rituals that Coven Wiccans currently use are lifted almost verbatim from Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism and Qabala. Coven Wicca seems to be on it's way out, many Wiccans nowadays following a much simplified Book of Shadows published by many authors today and the wisdom is greatly watered down from Gardner's original. Very few Wiccans nowadays celebrate skyclad, as is stated in the Charge of the Goddess, in fact the Charge itself has lessened in importance nowadays.

With the amount of information currently available, Wicca is becoming diluted from what it used to be, becoming mixed with knowledge from other Paths. When there are groups around, they are nearly all Working Groups of Solitaries who like to get together occasionally.

Shalimar
04-01-2012, 01:52 PM
[QUOTE=Animus27]Well, is there a particular reason why you wish to identify Yahweh with the Horned God of Wicca? The worship of Yahweh has been a very exclusive one throughout most of it's history. That shows that he might not like sharing his position with other gods, from my POV anyway :smile:


Good question Animus27! Actually I am not trying to identify Yahweh God with the Horned God of Wicca. Especially as before I read what you and Norseman told me I only knew what S. Cunningham says in his book and visibly for him there are many Gods to choose from to represent The God and the Goddess (which he also says can be nameless if you feel that using ancient Gods and Goddesses is limiting). So we are really talking about The God and The Goddess, Creator of everything, “the supreme power personified into 2 basic beings: the Goddess and the God” and this is what brought up my question.
My reaction to what I read in his book, when I think of it, only came through my feelings...I love Yahweh God and it didn't seem fair to me that He/She was excluded from the list, like if He/She could not even be an option....Knowing that this book we are talking about is supposed to be “a guide” and is recommended on the internet as being a good book for those who are beginners, those who don't know anything about Wicca. Thus, it didn't seem right that a newcomer would not have also the option to choose Yahweh God, instead of the others.

And yes, you are right Yahweh God demands exclusivity in your heart, but what if a newcomer didn't want to have several Gods? Not everyone desires to have several Gods. In that case, choosing Yahweh God would not have been a problem.
When I was a teen I looked into the Roman and Greek pantheon of Gods that we studied in school, then I looked into the God of the Hebrews, and I ended up afterward building a relationship with Yahweh God and had no problem with the fact that I could not go to other Gods at all. At first, meaning about 30 years ago I turned to the Catholic Church to find answers about God. Thus, I was taught that Yahweh God was: The Father the Son the Holy Spirit but not 3 still one and I was taught to add Mother Mary to the equation; and that it was just fine, God would not be jealous in that case...

Well, since then many "waters passed under the bridge" and now, I see it that Yahweh God can really be: Father God, Mother God. So that is why I thought it was somehow similar to the Wicca concept stated in the book as he was talking about The God and The Goddess....and I say ”Father God and Mother God”, not much difference after all…

I've read that the Catholic Church had centered everything on the Father, Son, even though they knew that there was Mother God. But as they had chosen to have an exclusively male religion with only male leaders, they could not let people know about Mother God...afterward they felt bad about it, so they promoted Mother Mary...

Now about what you said "he might not like sharing his position with other gods" I agree that Yahweh God wants exclusivity in your heart, but He/She would have been totally OK to be included in the list because from what I read in the Hebrew Scriptures, Yahweh has always been up for a challenge against other Gods, even when those challenges are brought up by men. From what I read, Yahweh is always up to prove that He/She are The Creator, The God above all Gods….

Peace :hug3:

Shalimar
04-01-2012, 02:01 PM
Shalimar, I will share what I know about the founder of Wicca - Gerald Gardner who was British. [/FONT]

Thanks Norseman that was very interesting! One thing I don't grasp:
What do you mean by "the Charge" of the Goddess? I'm not familiar with the term.

Thanks!:smile:
Peace :hug3:

norseman
04-01-2012, 04:55 PM
"Charge of the Goddess" and the later "Charge of the God" was verse/prayers devised by Doreen Valiente, one of Gardner's associates. Some wiccans still hold to them but most [in UK] don't.
Check in here [loads of stuff !] under Book of Shadows.
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/index.htm (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.sacred-texts.com%2Fbos%2Findex.htm)

Just one comment about The Lord and The Lady - compare this with Yin and Yang, a perfect balance !

Shalimar
04-01-2012, 09:03 PM
Thanks Norseman :hug3: I checked out the link and yeah, that's a well of info:smile:

If not on another thread, see you in class!:wink:

Peace :icon_sunny:

Animus27
04-01-2012, 11:09 PM
Now about what you said "he might not like sharing his position with other gods" I agree that Yahweh God wants exclusivity in your heart, but He/She would have been totally OK to be included in the list because from what I read in the Hebrew Scriptures, Yahweh has always been up for a challenge against other Gods, even when those challenges are brought up by men. From what I read, Yahweh is always up to prove that He/She are The Creator, The God above all Gods….
Which scriptures and passages?

Shalimar
05-01-2012, 10:08 PM
Which scriptures and passages?

There are 2 passages that come up to my mind but there are probably more.

You can look up 1 Kings 18: 19 to 39
Here the challenge originated from Elijah a prophet of Yahweh God. He wanted to prove that Yahweh was God unlike "Baal" & "Asherah". Yahweh accepted to take the test and passed it.

Then, you can read of a challenge that Yahweh started to prove He/She is The God over all Gods in Exodus 7:4 to chapter 12: 33. This is a long passage but it is worth reading. Each plague that Yahweh sent upon the Egyptians was a challenge each time to one of the Egyptians' Gods:

- Hapi- Egyptian God of the Nile (Plague of the water turned to blood)
- Heket- Egyptian Goddess of Fertility, Water, Renewal (Plague of frogs)
- Geb- Egyptian God of the Earth (Plague of lice from the dust of the earth)
- Khepri- Egyptian God of creation, movement of the Sun, rebirth (Plague of the swarms of Flies)
- Hathor-Egyptian Goddess of Love and Protection (Plague of death for cattle and livestock)
- Isis- Egyptian Goddess of Medicine and Peace (Plague of boils and sores)
- Nut- Egyptian Goddess of the Sky (Plague of hail rained down in the form of fire)
- Seth- Egyptian God of Storms and Disorder (Plague of the locusts sent from the sky)
- Ra- The Sun God (Plague of the 3 days of complete darkness)
- Pharaoh- The Ultimate Power of Egypt - Pharoahs were worship as Gods (Plague of death for the firstborn)

The accounts show that the Gods of the Egyptians could do nothing against Yahweh.

And Just as a "bonus" :wink: Here is what King Darius of Medo-Persia who was worshiping other Gods said about Yahweh

Daniel 6: 25-28

Then King Darius wrote to all the nations and peoples of every language in all the earth:
“May you prosper greatly!
“I issue a decree that in every part of my kingdom people must fear and reverence the God of Daniel.
“For he is the living God and he endures forever; his kingdom will not be destroyed, his dominion will never end. He rescues and he saves; he performs signs and wonders in the heavens and on the earth. He has rescued Daniel from the power of the lions.”

Peace :smile:

Animus27
07-01-2012, 12:30 AM
Interesting interpretation.

What do you think of these passages?

[Exodus 20] 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[Deuteronomy 6] 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

Those passages are both from the Torah which is considered the heart of YHVH's message to his chosen people.

I kind of like the Egyptian connective list. Where did you get it? Or did you come up with it yourself? :smile:

Shalimar
07-01-2012, 02:39 AM
Interesting interpretation.

What do you think of these passages?

[Exodus 20] 4 “You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

[Deuteronomy 6] 15 for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.

Those passages are both from the Torah which is considered the heart of YHVH's message to his chosen people.

I kind of like the Egyptian connective list. Where did you get it? Or did you come up with it yourself? :smile:

Those passages are perfectly fine, but I don't see your point....we've already established that Yahweh demands an exclusive worship...

The concern you mentioned and for which I answered you was "Scriptures and passages" showing that Yahweh doesn't mind to answer a challenge against other Gods. Did you read everything? Being listed among other Gods has nothing to do with the fact that Yahweh demands exclusivity in the heart of His/Her worshipers. It is just a list. This is what I believe. I respect your belief so I'll appreciate that you show me the same courtesy.
For the Egyptian connection, I didn't come up with it by myself. If I don't know something I am not the kind of person to make up something...I just say I don't know or I don't talk about it. This info I've got from a documentary that I had seen on TV and then I found the same info on the internet and kept it in my PC. So if you have a problem with that try contacting the people who wrote the article (I don't know if you can but see for yourself) Here is the link:

http://inthedoghouse.hubpages.com/hub/Ten-Plagues-For-Ten-Gods

Peace :smile:

Animus27
07-01-2012, 04:13 AM
Those passages are perfectly fine, but I don't see your point....we've already established that Yahweh demands an exclusive worship...
I posted them because they emphatically state that YHVH is a god of exclusion in his formal cultus. You use the story of the prophets of Ba´al as an example that god wants to be challenged so he can prove he is the best god of them all. But the function of the story was to show that other gods are delusions to begin with, and that YHVH alone is the one who has power over the world.

The concern you mentioned and for which I answered you was "Scriptures and passages" showing that Yahweh doesn't mind to answer a challenge against other Gods. Did you read everything? Being listed among other Gods has nothing to do with the fact that Yahweh demands exclusivity in the heart of His/Her worshipers. It is just a list. This is what I believe. I respect your belief so I'll appreciate that you show me the same courtesy.I am being courteous. Just because I am asking questions doesn´t mean I intend to disparage or disrespect what you believe. :smile: No need to get overly touchy over some simple questioning.

For the Egyptian connection, I didn't come up with it by myself. If I don't know something I am not the kind of person to make up something...I just say I don't know or I don't talk about it. This info I've got from a documentary that I had seen on TV and then I found the same info on the internet and kept it in my PC. So if you have a problem with that try contacting the people who wrote the article (I don't know if you can but see for yourself) Here is the link:

http://inthedoghouse.hubpages.com/hu...s-For-Ten-Gods

Peace

That's an interesting connection; but it has some problems, because Egyptian deities weren't always worshiped in the same place, or in the same time frame. During certain Dynasties particular ntr. (gods) became nothing more than foreign or half forgotten names. And each city had it's own particular mythos in reflection of what ntr. were the major protectors of the city. There are exceptions of course, though. So I am of the opinion that placing the ten Biblical plagues with a certain ntr. is a tenuous connection - but that might just be me, I tend to be skeptical of such neatly formed lists when it comes to this subject. :D

Shalimar
10-01-2012, 05:37 PM
I posted them because they emphatically state that YHVH is a god of exclusion in his formal cultus. You use the story of the prophets of Ba´al as an example that god wants to be challenged so he can prove he is the best god of them all. But the function of the story was to show that other gods are delusions to begin with, and that YHVH alone is the one who has power over the world.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here, I still read that in 1 Kings 18: 19 to 39 "the challenge originated from Elijah , Elijah (like I had specified in my post) and not Yahweh God, is challenging the worshippers of "Baal" & "Asherah", to prove that their Gods were not "THE God of all Gods" That is why Elijah said "The god who answers by fire—he is God.” (verse 22). Yahweh in that account just goes along with what Elijah started.
For me (and I know you disagree and some Christians probably would too), the fact that Yahweh passed the test and is proven to be "The God" doesn't mean that the other Gods, here: "Baal" & "Asherah" are not Gods. These people worshipped them and must have gotten some results out of them, the Scriptures just don't say that detail as it focusses on Yahweh...But according to the Scriptures, theses Gods are no match for Yahweh, and so He/She is The only Almighty, The God of all Gods or to put it in a Christian way "The God of all gods"

Moreover, in the Greek Scriptures the Apostle Paul does mention "a god" that he estimates has powers, but while not being All powerful, but that is not the Almighty. Paul says that Satan is "the god of this world" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

The second example I had given is for me dead on relevant, as it shows that this time "Yahweh" is challenging the Gods of the Egyptians. Again, I believe that the Egyptians had some results from their Gods, and that the point made by Yahweh and His/Her followers is that they are Gods but Yahweh is THE God, the only to be almighty, the God of all Gods. In simple words, the other Gods are no match for Yahweh and they are not as efficient. Anyway the long passage I gave you shows that Yahweh started the challenge this time and won. This is also implied by:

Exodus 12:12: “...I will execute judgment against all the gods of Egypt. I am YHWH.”

and

In Psalms 95:3 “YHWH is a great God, and a great king above all gods.”

It is true also that in some other places in the Scriptures like in Isaiah 44:12-20 that man make a god. So, in that regard I agree that you find also proof in the Scriptures that other Gods are nothing. But you can't set aside what Paul says when he speaks of "Satan being the god of this world". Moreover, I'm sure that you believe that your Gods are real, don't you? Maybe the Scriptures do not specify anything about them, but that doesn't prove that they are not real, at least not for me. And I would not associate them with the passage of Isaiah 44.

This is what some of my Christian friends would tell you: there are other "gods", and they have some powers, they are called "demons or fallen angels", they are not like Yahweh God who is the almighty, but they are gods nonetheless. They say that people who are not Christians (and for them, that means really all other religions combined) are worshipping "demons" and demons have great powers but are no match for Yahweh.

I am being courteous. Just because I am asking questions doesn´t mean I intend to disparage or disrespect what you believe. :smile: No need to get overly touchy over some simple questioning.

Thanks for clarifying what you wrote, without the sound of voice and look in the eyes, some writings "sound" judgmental, filled with prejudice, etc...So I'm glad this was not the case and that I had misunderstood you, sorry about that.

That's an interesting connection; but it has some problems, because Egyptian deities weren't always worshiped in the same place, or in the same time frame. During certain Dynasties particular ntr. (gods) became nothing more than foreign or half forgotten names. And each city had it's own particular mythos in reflection of what ntr. were the major protectors of the city. There are exceptions of course, though. So I am of the opinion that placing the ten Biblical plagues with a certain ntr. is a tenuous connection - but that might just be me, I tend to be skeptical of such neatly formed lists when it comes to this subject. :D
For me I take it differently because, what I remember from what we learned in school about the Egyptian Gods, what I saw on that TV documentary, and the article I found on the internet all say the same thing. So it seems to have a good potential to be true knowing that the same info is given from 3 different sources...But, yeah, I mean you don't have to accept it, and maybe you are right and maybe I'm wrong to believe what they say...but anyway this is not really important to me and the intent of this thread was not what you brought up.

"I was just thinking that Yahweh should have been mentioned in the list and I still believe that Yahweh God would not have mind because we are not talking about "worship" (that is where Yahweh demands exclusivity), we are talking about a list with all the options and I'm sure He/She would have been glad to be part of the options. Moreover, I read online that visibly some people would like to be "Wiccan" but are not interested in any other God than Yahweh God, and they wonder if it is OK. Meaning the book I spoke about and other info maybe on the Net give that impression.

What I wanted from that thread was :

To find out whether yes or no a Wiccan has the right to disregard the pantheon of pagans Gods and choose to worship only Yahweh, or if it was not possible (again because of the fact that the book I was reading do not give Yahweh as an option), like it would not be possible for someone to be a Christian and worship the Pagan's Gods. What you brought up was interesting but was not what this thread was about.

But what I found out by more research online is that:

At least for US Wicca: "Wicca itself is a specific religion. Those who follow it -- Wiccans -- honor the deities of Wicca. They don't honor the Christian god at all.... Wicca is polytheistic...." (Patty Wingington)

So to go back to my original question, "is all Wicca abiding by this belief" (Patty Wingington visibly joins S. Cunningham, but she adds in her article: "....lets assume that you're interested in becoming a witch, but you plan on remaining Christian. In general, the witch community isn't going to care....") and if so, I do understand why S. Cunningham didn't mention Yahweh in his list and that is perfectly understandable just as a Christian, a Jewish, etc..., author would never give Pagan Gods as an option.

Now just to say, the answer to that question doesn't change anything for my spirituality as I am "just me" I do not classify myself in any religion, and probably there is not one religion that would accept me...I guess, I'm too much of a free spirit, I'm too unorthodox...and that is fine with me :wink:

Peace :smile:

Animus27
11-01-2012, 12:40 AM
I thank you for your in depth reply, Shalimar! :smile:

So to go back to my original question, "is all Wicca abiding by this belief" (Patty Wingington visibly joins S. Cunningham, but she adds in her article: "....lets assume that you're interested in becoming a witch, but you plan on remaining Christian. In general, the witch community isn't going to care....") and if so, I do understand why S. Cunningham didn't mention Yahweh in his list and that is perfectly understandable just as a Christian, a Jewish, etc..., author would never give Pagan Gods as an option.
It depends upon where you're coming to it from. Some Wiccans might feel like just worshiping YHVH is an attempt to have your cake and eat it too, or that you're (general you) afraid of making a commitment to the path. While others will be more liberal in their acceptance of differing theologia and cultus. There's also an unspoken reaction against overtly Christian practices or beliefs among many Neo-Pagans, because a good chunk (not all, of course) have came to paganism and/or Wicca, because they experienced a dissatisfaction with a facet of the Christian religion; either the entire premise of the relationship between God and man, or the whole gotohellforeverandevernowsinner routine.

That's probably why you don't find lots of Wiccan plug & play lists of gods that have YHVH. But considering he was originally worshiped in a polytheistic culture, and according to some hypotheses, had a wife that was worshiped along side him during certain periods. The main issue is that the worship of YHVH is saturated with a history of exclusion, violence and dogmaticism that make it hard for many Wiccans to even consider honoring him in ritual. And because of that same issue, many Judeo-Christian folks aren't fond of the idea of people worshiping him improperly (in their eyes, at least).

So the whole thing is a cultural attitude, rather than a theological one. In my opinion, at least.

thesongbirdsaresinging
11-01-2012, 01:33 AM
I've heard of "Christian Wiccans" which is honestly quite contradictory in nature. One of the ten commandments is not to worship any other gods before YHVH... And the Goddess counts as a god, no? You do indeed worship both a God and Goddess in Wicca, and usually, the Goddess is given more attention than the God (though the God is seen as equally important).
I mean, whatever floats your boat, but to be honest worshiping the Christian God and being Wiccan, worshiping the Goddess alongside Jehova, seems odd to me. If it works for you however and you can find a way around the contradictions then that's great. :)

norseman
11-01-2012, 08:44 AM
TSBS - how would you regard the contradictions in Roman Catholicism ? They worship a Triple Deity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - and their churches have many idols. Forget wicca, concentrate on Witch Craft. The most important christian holy days are rebadged pagan days, and many christian places of worship are built over pagan places.

LadyMoondancer
11-01-2012, 08:15 PM
There certainly are differences between American Wicca and British Wicca.
And I personally don't think it's a bad thing.

Going from the premise that all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess, then worshipping different deities is not a bad thing. Each deity represents a different aspect of the whole.

For myself, my patron goddess is Egyptian Selket, and I am very close to Sekhmet and Bast, with Anubis following. But many times when I do a ritual, I will invoke "The Lord and The Lady."

there is a female aspect of Yahweh - her name was Shekinah. or Sophia.

Scott Cunningham is good author, a good place to start. Raymond Buckland and Christopher Penzcak are also very good. If you want to spend your money on the various Llewellyn authors, like Silver Ravenwolf, go for it, for a "well-rounded" outlook on American Wicca.

Other good authors/books are Drawing Down the Moon by Adler, and Starhawk's Spiral Dance.

Do what your heart tells you what is best for you.

thesongbirdsaresinging
12-01-2012, 01:28 AM
TSBS - how would you regard the contradictions in Roman Catholicism ? They worship a Triple Deity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - and their churches have many idols. Forget wicca, concentrate on Witch Craft. The most important christian holy days are rebadged pagan days, and many christian places of worship are built over pagan places.


If you forget Wicca and focus on witchcraft than the only contradiction is "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" wherever that is in the Bible... But to be fair, many people think it was mistranslated.
Yes, many Christian holidays were stolen from Pagan holidays. I believe as an effort to convert the Pagans?
I'm pretty sure Catholics would object to you saying they have "idols." Haha. I've seen them get really offended at that, especially when other Christians say it hah. And they believe the Trinity is all aspects of one God (technically this could be soft polytheism, but they don't like to think of it like that).
Anyways, I was simply pointing out that Wicca and Christianity would be very hard to practice together because the original question was on Wicca. Wicca and witchcraft are completely different things, even if they go hand in hand a lot of the time. Anyways, yeah, I've heard of many Christian witches. :)

norseman
12-01-2012, 08:59 AM
Sorry but "Christian Witch" is still an oxymoron to me :smile:. The ethical code and teachings of Christ and wicca do "hang" together well in my book but christianity, the organisation is a world away from the teachings of Christ.

"Wicca and witchcraft are completely different things," - wicca is just a new branch of an ancient tree, Witchcraft, so not completely different. [btw Gardner called his new faith New Witchcraft]

The reason why the early church adopted pagan festivals was because the ordinary folk maintained their pagan festivals. You have to realise that Britain is not truly a christian country, christianity is only a thin skin on the surface and even that thin skin is dying off. I regularly invoke my deity in a major cathedral near to me, knowing that the foundations include a pagan holy site. I attend pagan festivals at a local henge which has been in use for over 4000 years.

Animus27
12-01-2012, 10:52 PM
If you forget Wicca and focus on witchcraft than the only contradiction is "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" wherever that is in the Bible... But to be fair, many people think it was mistranslated.

Whose many people? What are the alternative translations? What about the other passages in the various books that condemn sorcery, divination>

Yes, many Christian holidays were stolen from Pagan holidays. I believe as an effort to convert the Pagans?
I'm pretty sure Catholics would object to you saying they have "idols." Haha. I've seen them get really offended at that, especially when other Christians say it hah. And they believe the Trinity is all aspects of one God (technically this could be soft polytheism, but they don't like to think of it like that).Which holidays? :smile: The Trinity is not a type of soft polytheism. An outsider might construe it as a form of polytheism, but it stems from a misunderstanding, even though it's still a murky concept that the Church has had to do a lot of backflips with. :wink:

Anyyways, I was simply pointing out that Wicca and Christianity would be very hard to practice together because the original question was on Wicca. Wicca and witchcraft are completely different things, even if they go hand in hand a lot of the time. Anyways, yeah, I've heard of many Christian witches. :)
Wicca is fertility withcraft practicing religion. Your comment about them being two completely different things tells me you might not grasp what the two terms entail.

Shalimar
12-01-2012, 11:12 PM
Thanks Animus27, for these precisions….


[”The main issue is that the worship of YHVH is saturated with a history of exclusion, violence and dogmaticism”]


Yeah, that’s dead on right! And I understand that it can be hard on many Wiccans and actually we see more and more professed Christians who “flee” Christianity as fast as they can, because they are fed up of the gimmicks, of having to deny the core of their beings, of what they know is true in their hearts, of their spiritual experiences, of being brain washed and of having to be locked up in the “Christianity standard box”, of hearing a bunch of mumbo jumbo about the do’s and don’ts, and keep on hearing that anything that is not “Christian” = Evil, of “the Devil”, etc…etc…

Thanks thesongbirdsaresinging for your input and while it is true that


[ “the ten commandments is not to worship any other gods before YHVH”]


The Goddess, for me and some other unorthodox followers of Yahweh God has her place in God. Why? Because for us God means “the Supreme being” and it means for us an entity made out of: “The God and The Goddess also called Father God and Mother God, or The Lord and The Lady”. For that reason, I write He/She when I talk about Yahweh God.
Therefore, the Goddess is not “a” god and is not to be counted among the other gods, mentioned in this commandment... But sure, this is completely forbidden for a Christian to believe that way, they would classify that view as heretic…in other words if we were not in the 21st century people like me would be burned on the stake by the leaders of Christianity! :wink: The thing is people like me are not Christians and don't wish to be.... moreover we would not be accepted by Christianity unless we would give up many things and accepted to fit in the box...People like me just choose to worship only one God and we choose Yahweh God, and we don't go along with all the do's and don'ts of Christianity....

To talk about the contradictions existing in the midst of Christianity like Norseman said, yes, in my eyes Christianity is quite hypocrite with its beliefs…


[TSBS - how would you regard the contradictions in Roman Catholicism ? They worship a Triple Deity - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - and their churches have many idols. Forget wicca, concentrate on Witch Craft. The most important christian holy days are rebadged pagan days, and many christian places of worship are built over pagan places.]


This is so true! With Christianity, as long as the “Leaders” decide something about the belief of the “Church” it is perfectly fine…and it comes with a “you better believe it”…For them, I’m a doomed heretic because I say that:

“Yahweh is The God and The Goddess” and there is no violation of the commandment”

But they go on teaching that you have to worship: “The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit” and that is perfectly alright?????
Where is the difference, if you worship "The God and The Goddess"? beside the fact that there is a "female" and they have 3 males,,,,

And yes, they make such a fuss about “pagan” abominable ways, but they are quick to use pagan days, etc…
Moreover, they cry out “heresy” If you would dare recognize the Goddess and call her The Goddess, or Mother God or The Lady….but illogically and hypocritically they do not mind (not the Protestant but the Catholic Christians which is a large part of Christianity) having statues of Mary in their place of worship (often times more than one) along with statues of “Saints”. The statues of Mary will be set up with a place to kneel before Mary, a kind of altar where you can light a votive candle, flowers are offered. A wide spread belief is that you pray Mary not the Father or the Son, it is Mary that will help you, give you graces, round corners with the Father and the Son, she is the one to go to, she is the one who takes care of humanity….
Mary is called: “the Mother of the Church”, “The Queen of Heaven” (among the diverse statues of Mary you have the one with a crown for that very reason and actually there is a prayer to Mary Queen of Heaven), Mother Mary, Our Lady…..She is powerful and performs miracles, healings, etc…Processions of her statues are made where people send flowers, kiss the statue, dress it, etc…etc…
After all that, you wonder why they cringe when hearing: “The Goddess, Mother God, or The Lady”???

Thanks LadyMoondancer for your input!


[“there is a female aspect of Yahweh - her name was Shekinah. or Sophia.”]


Yes, precisely. Even Christian scholars (Protestants and Catholics alike) will admit the plurality seen in this scripture (of course for them it can only represent the Trinity):

“Let US make mankind in OUR image; in OUR likeness…..”

And further it is written that mankind was created “male and female”…..

In my opinion, Christianity lacks of logic regarding this passage (like with many others). They refuse the one we call: “The Lady or The Goddess”, they would cry out “blasphemy”…. when this passage says mankind was created in the image/likeness of God…and that is “Male and Female”.

Thus for me, the Scriptures describe Yahweh God as: “The Male and The Female" in other words: "The God and The Goddess/ The Lord and The Lady" who were the pattern for men and women….

Anyhow, thanks for the book references.


[“Do what your heart tells you what is best for you.”]


I do appreciate your mindset; I’ve had to deal with way too many Christians whose “quest” was to persuade me to fit in their box!

Peace :hug3: