View Full Version : Religious Relics in Spiritualist Churches.
deepsea
12-12-2011, 10:20 PM
Why are religious relics placed in Spiritualist churches frowned upon?
It has come to my notice that religious relics such as crosses and other such like should not be displayed in Spiritualist churches.
Why?
Deepsea
Why are religious relics placed in Spiritualist churches frowned upon?
It has come to my notice that religious relics such as crosses and other such like should not be displayed in Spiritualist churches.
Why?
Deepsea
Because they're no part of Spiritualist teaching - why would they be displayed when they relate to other religions?
matt1973
12-12-2011, 10:32 PM
This is an interesting thread.
Given that nearly all religions incorporate the concept of life after death, I would have thought that certain religious items would be seen as acceptable. An awful lot of mediums also make reference to God.
I'm certainly not an expert on spiritualism and will be visiting my local spiritualist church for the first time on Wednesday, so I've yet to really achieve an understanding of spiritualism as a religion.
This is an interesting thread.
Given that nearly all religions incorporate the concept of life after death, I would have thought that certain religious items would be seen as acceptable. An awful lot of mediums also make reference to God.
I'm certainly not an expert on spiritualism and will be visiting my local spiritualist church for the first time on Wednesday, so I've yet to really achieve an understanding of spiritualism as a religion.
Perhaps a look in the 'Spiritualism' forum might prove helpful for you? - this is mediumship.
matt1973
12-12-2011, 11:13 PM
Perhaps a look in the 'Spiritualism' forum might prove helpful for you? - this is mediumship.
Do mediums not appear in spiritualist churches then?
I'm pretty sure they do, so I'd say the two are connected.
deepsea
13-12-2011, 05:31 AM
Because they're no part of Spiritualist teaching - why would they be displayed when they relate to other religions?
My opinion is,religious relics are displayed to welcome anyone who follows another religion,into a spiritualist church.
A welcome sign to state that spiritualism is for all.
deepsea
13-12-2011, 05:35 AM
This could be my error,I feel this topic should have been placed in the Spiritualist forum.
Do we have a spiritualist forum,I omitted to check.
:redface:
psychoslice
13-12-2011, 06:00 AM
Relics and the like are really just play things for the mind, but they can act as a pointer bringing you within, just as scriptures and Gurus can, but in themselves they are just idols, but you first have to realize that to know that.
Do mediums not appear in spiritualist churches then?
I'm pretty sure they do, so I'd say the two are connected.
If you took a look you'd see why I suggested it....
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=63
My opinion is,religious relics are displayed to welcome anyone who follows another religion,into a spiritualist church.
A welcome sign to state that spiritualism is for all.
If icons and symbols of other religions were on display to that end, for correctness there would need to be something from all other religions.
Spiritualism is different from traditional mainstream religions - it doesn't have any equivalent to the Bible, no symbols etc. and I like that.
Let's celebrate our differences and remember the all-important message of survival that Spiritualism brings; a message underpinned by evidence obtained through mediumship. Symbols play no part.
Let's keep it that way.
Lorraine Holloway-White
13-12-2011, 08:38 AM
Spiritualists are mainly not Christian. They are not a religion and call themselves scientific churches. Many of them have told me (presidents and ministers) that they only say they believe in a Deity because they have to in order to be allowed to perform legal marriages.
As for the comment above about medioums - I loved it! However, Spritualist churches are very good places for those who suddenly decide they want to become mediums as they can help certain people develop to a certain level. What they are dreadful for is anyone who was born a natural medium or healer (sensitive) as their teachings are completely wrong for natural mediumship development, the natural ability often goes completely unrecognised and they will insist that you attend awareness for years and then development for years. They will not allow you to work unless you have certificates (as if they prove anything!) and you will be thrown back years. I know, because they did it with me. Once I left their open circles (dreadful energies due to all and sundry allowed in them) my mediumship soared.
Basically, they are not a religion, most have no belief in God and cringe if you use the word Jesus. They are not for natural mediumship and are basically only suitable for those wanting to learn to do something. Hope that answers a bit?
deepsea
13-12-2011, 08:46 AM
From what I have read recently,the 'powers to be of Spiritualism' have dictated that no religious relics should not be shown in any spiritualist church.
I leave that open for other's opinions.
Lorraine Holloway-White
13-12-2011, 08:52 AM
From what I have read recently,the 'powers to be of Spiritualism' have dictated that no religious relics should not be shown in any spiritualist church.
I leave that open for other's opinions.
Every natural medium I have ever met or spoken to throughout the world ALL believe in God (or whatever name you choose to call Him by) or at least a far greater power than themselves. This is one of the big differences between natural and forced mediums. We as natural mediums know the gifts we were born with come from Him and it is He who works through us. God is the healer, not mankind and the fact so many think they are the ones doing it all is why so many are now seeing their gifts being taken from them or dimmed.
All are born with gifts and they are all different form each other. Some will excel at some things and others will excel at other things. Those born with a talent or gift will excel in that field and others who do the same thing will be mediocre in it. We can all sing for example, but those born with the gift will be Pavaroti's of the world whereas the rest of us can be adequate and do well, but we'll never reach his standards. The same is said of mediumship and healing.
If you don't believe in God, then you won't be a natural medium.
[quote=Lorraine Holloway-White]
Spiritualists are mainly not Christian. Spiritualism isn't Christianity hence its adherents aren't Christians....They are not a religion They are not a religion because people aren't a religion....and call themselves scientific churches. That might be the case elsewhere (as in the US for example) but in the UK they are referred to as Spiritualist churches or centres..... Many of them have told me (presidents and ministers) that they only say they believe in a Deity because they have to in order to be allowed to perform legal marriages.
As for the comment above about medioums - I loved it! However, Spritualist churches are very good places for those who suddenly decide they want to become mediums as they can help certain people develop to a certain level. Spiritualist churches are even better for those who want to learn about Spiritualism's message of survival....What they are dreadful for is anyone who was born a natural medium or healer (sensitive) as their teachings are completely wrong for natural mediumship development, the natural ability often goes completely unrecognised and they will insist that you attend awareness for years and then development for years. They will not allow you to work unless you have certificates (as if they prove anything!) and you will be thrown back years. I know, because they did it with me. Once I left their open circles (dreadful energies due to all and sundry allowed in them) my mediumship soared. What does this have to do with symbols in church?
Basically, they are not a religion, You've already been here....most have no belief in God You have the figures proving that, of course....:rolleyes: and cringe if you use the word Jesus. I would also cringe if you spoke about Jesus without understanding who and what he was....Is that what you did? They are not for natural mediumship and are basically only suitable for those wanting to learn to do something. Hope that answers a bit? Well, yes, it helps to explain your personal position. What it doesn't do, though, is to speak about symbols etc. and why they're not appropriate in Modern Spiritualist churches and centres.
Those looking for input about that situation should look elsewhere.....
Every natural medium I have ever met or spoken to throughout the world ALL believe in God (or whatever name you choose to call Him by) or at least a far greater power than themselves. This is one of the big differences between natural and forced mediums. We as natural mediums know the gifts we were born with come from Him and it is He who works through us. God is the healer, not mankind and the fact so many think they are the ones doing it all is why so many are now seeing their gifts being taken from them or dimmed.
All are born with gifts and they are all different form each other. Some will excel at some things and others will excel at other things. Those born with a talent or gift will excel in that field and others who do the same thing will be mediocre in it. We can all sing for example, but those born with the gift will be Pavaroti's of the world whereas the rest of us can be adequate and do well, but we'll never reach his standards. The same is said of mediumship and healing.
If you don't believe in God, then you won't be a natural medium.
And all this about natural mediumship, God, healing your personal situation et al has exactly what to do with the subject of this thread???? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Oh - perhaps you hadn't noticed the original posting? quote: "Why are religious relics placed in Spiritualist churches frowned upon?"
From what I have read recently,the 'powers to be of Spiritualism' have dictated that no religious relics should not be shown in any spiritualist church.
I leave that open for other's opinions.
I find no problems with that principle.
Christian Spiritualist churches are those most likely to display symbols found in Christian churches. I don't attend them so I don't know if they display symbols found in churches of other denominations.
Perhaps there are some Christian Spiritualist members who can help with that point?
As in any other church, any other denomination, one is surely reasonable to support the church where one feels most comfortable?
This could be my error,I feel this topic should have been placed in the Spiritualist forum.
Do we have a spiritualist forum,I omitted to check.
:redface:
yes
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=63
Lorraine Holloway-White
13-12-2011, 09:33 AM
Spiritualism cannot be better than natural mediumship and yet you state they are even better for messages of survival. They aren't - there is no better than a natural medium - fact.
They claim to 'prove' survival in their teachings and they haven't proved that all all. If one makes a claim, they must be able to substantiate it and they can with that claim. No man can. All they are 'proving', as is any medium forced or natural, is that we are getting information from somewhere. We cannot prove where. We might know it in our hearts, but knowing it isn't proving it. If anyone had proved it, there wouldn't be so many sceptics in the world and science would have shown the evidence.
We too call them spiritualist churches here, but they are scientific churches not Christian - their words not mine. Their main name is a spiritualist church, but their beliefs are of science not a Deity - this is something they don't advertise as they don't want all to realise they don't believe in God. That is why they talk Father/Mother God. It is words only and not meant. Many of their followers don't even realise that fact.
As for you assuming I know nothing of Jesus, you are very rude. The reason I mentioned Him - and all should be allowed to anywhere they want - is because I queried why they needed certificates for healing when a natural healer. I said Jesus was the greatest healer the world has ever seen and I was almost spat at and told, 'we don't mention His name her'. We don't believe in Him.
If the spiritualist movement say they don't believe in a Deity, then I don't think individual numbers are required - do you? It is their belief as a whole.
You are very much a nit picker aren't you? Why go on a forum for discussion if you can't do it unless others agree with you? And don't ever tell me I don't know what I'm talking about!!
Lorraine Holloway-White
13-12-2011, 09:40 AM
And all this about natural mediumship, God, healing your personal situation et al has exactly what to do with the subject of this thread???? :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:
Oh - perhaps you hadn't noticed the original posting? quote: "Why are religious relics placed in Spiritualist churches frowned upon?"
and I answered why they're frowned upon or maybe you didn't understand the answer about them being scientific. If a body is a scientific body, they wouldn't want anything that denotes religion in any form. Is that moire simple for you? I was giving a more in depth answer for those who aren't hard bitten spiritualists so they could understand more fully. I don't make claims without explaining how I came across the information. You are the one who was rude and asked why I dared mentioned Jesus. I answered you why. You are a good example of why many are leaving spiritualist churches.
psychoslice
13-12-2011, 09:49 AM
and I answered why they're frowned upon or maybe you didn't understand the answer about them being scientific. If a body is a scientific body, they wouldn't want anything that denotes religion in any form. Is that moire simple for you? I was giving a more in depth answer for those who aren't hard bitten spiritualists so they could understand more fully. I don't make claims without explaining how I came across the information. You are the one who was rude and asked why I dared mentioned Jesus. I answered you why. You are a good example of why many are leaving spiritualist churches.
Good on ya Lorraine Holloway-White, that mac thinks he knows it all lol.
[quote=Lorraine Holloway-White]
Spiritualism cannot be better than natural mediumship and yet you state they are even better for messages of survival. They aren't - there is no better than a natural medium - fact. If it's me you're 'speaking' to please quote my piece - not your version of it. The 'Quote' button is there to make it easy...
They claim to 'prove' survival in their teachings and they haven't proved that all all. Oh dear - how many times will you be wrong - there's 'evidence' of survival. If one makes a claim, they must be able to substantiate it and they can with that claim. No man can. All they are 'proving', as is any medium forced or natural, is that we are getting information from somewhere. We cannot prove where. We might know it in our hearts, but knowing it isn't proving it. If anyone had proved it, there wouldn't be so many sceptics in the world and science would have shown the evidence.
We too call them spiritualist churches here, but they are scientific churches not Christian - their words not mine. So important, wouldn't you agree, to explain what you're speaking about, the country in which you live etc? Their main name is a spiritualist church, but their beliefs are of science not a Deity - this is something they don't advertise as they don't want all to realise they don't believe in God. Here in the UK it's not your way at all....That is why they talk Father/Mother God. It is words only and not meant. Many of their followers don't even realise that fact. Those points might be developed further elsewhere....
As for you assuming I know nothing of Jesus, you are very rude. Will you PLEASE read what I asked - as Dr Phil loves to say "Take a look".... The reason I mentioned Him Oh! God's a MAN then? - and all should be allowed to anywhere they want - is because I queried why they needed certificates for healing when a natural healer. I said Jesus was the greatest healer the world has ever seen and I was almost spat at and told, 'we don't mention His name her'. We don't believe in Him. Now you're just speaking about yourself again, your own experiences..You're not discussing the subject of the thread - again.
If the spiritualist movement say they don't believe in a Deity, then I don't think individual numbers are required - do you? It is their belief as a whole. Wow you're a dismissive individual, aren't you? And again you're speaking about your own situation, your own experience - not about Spiritualist philosophy. Perhaps the US doesn't have any such thing? I certainly don't see it when I'm over there as I have been half the past seven years....
You are very much a nit picker aren't you? Why go on a forum for discussion if you can't do it unless others agree with you? And don't ever tell me I don't know what I'm talking about!! A nit-picker? You submissions here are so full of holes it's hard to avoid falling into 'em. Aren't you an author? You shouldn't have a scrap of difficulty supporting and defending everything you say, countering every single point I've raised if I've got it wrong.
"And don't ever tell me I don't know what I'm talking about!! " You can't dictate what others do in a public forum. Where I believe you're wrong, I'll say so and I'll explain why. In turn you can show where I've got it wrong. You can't simply say anything you like and expect that everyone will just accept without question - it doesn't work that way on forum boards. Or maybe you expect that's wrong, unacceptable? I don't know.
Never had your books peer-reviewed, challenged, questioned? So what's different here?
and I answered why they're frowned upon or maybe you didn't understand the answer about them being scientific. That's quite correct - I didn't understand..... If a body is a scientific body, they wouldn't want anything that denotes religion in any form. Is that moire simple for you? yes but it's not applicable in the UK - I made this point before...I was giving a more in depth answer for those who aren't hard bitten spiritualists so they could understand more fully. I don't make claims without explaining how I came across the information. You are the one who was rude and asked why I dared mentioned Jesus. I answered you why. You are a good example of why many are leaving spiritualist churches.
Have you not used discussion forums before?
Is anyone who questions your answers automatically "rude" in your eyes?
Good on ya Lorraine Holloway-White, that mac thinks he knows it all lol.
Oh my dear old psycho friend - still stirring the pot, eh? :wink:
Make mine a strong cuppa with a little sugar, would you?:D
glenos
13-12-2011, 10:04 AM
I know a 'natural' medium and I know a trained medium, and funnily enough I know a trained natural medium. No difference between them as they are all as good as each other and all work the platform to bring excellent evidence of survival and have done so for years. To set yourself up as a 'Sensitive' and say that your grouping is the better deal is a bit up your own chakra isn't it? I haven't seen you work L. but I'll tell you this if you are in my area and are working I'll come and see you. I have pretty much seen the best over the last 40yrs (come January '12) and most of those were trained in closed development circles. I hope you live up to your 'billing'.
G
psychoslice
13-12-2011, 10:06 AM
Oh my dear old psycho friend - still stirring the pot, eh? :wink:
Make mine a strong cuppa with a little sugar, would you?:D
Now that's the mac i like to see.:hug3:
"If you don't believe in God, then you won't be a natural medium."
there ya go!
Now.....wasn't this thread about religious symbols in Spiritualist churches at one time? :wink::D:D:D
Now that's the mac i like to see.:hug3:
there ya go! I can't be flippant all the time, though... :D
psychoslice
13-12-2011, 10:10 AM
there ya go! I can't be flippant all the time, though... :D
Yea I suppose I can't either lol.:smile:
deepsea
13-12-2011, 10:49 AM
Spiritualists are mainly not Christian. They are not a religion and call themselves scientific churches. Many of them have told me (presidents and ministers) that they only say they believe in a Deity because they have to in order to be allowed to perform legal marriages.
As for the comment above about medioums - I loved it! However, Spritualist churches are very good places for those who suddenly decide they want to become mediums as they can help certain people develop to a certain level. What they are dreadful for is anyone who was born a natural medium or healer (sensitive) as their teachings are completely wrong for natural mediumship development, the natural ability often goes completely unrecognised and they will insist that you attend awareness for years and then development for years. They will not allow you to work unless you have certificates (as if they prove anything!) and you will be thrown back years. I know, because they did it with me. Once I left their open circles (dreadful energies due to all and sundry allowed in them) my mediumship soared.
Basically, they are not a religion, most have no belief in God and cringe if you use the word Jesus. They are not for natural mediumship and are basically only suitable for those wanting to learn to do something. Hope that answers a bit?
I do agree with you that natural mediumship powers should left to develope as they come.
Mine all of a sudden seem to be developing pretty quickly but I do think for the sake of safety,we need help sometimes to keep those powers under control.
deepsea
13-12-2011, 10:52 AM
I find no problems with that principle.
Christian Spiritualist churches are those most likely to display symbols found in Christian churches. I don't attend them so I don't know if they display symbols found in churches of other denominations.
Perhaps there are some Christian Spiritualist members who can help with that point?
As in any other church, any other denomination, one is surely reasonable to support the church where one feels most comfortable?
All that is displayed in the church I visit occasionally is a small cross.
deepsea
13-12-2011, 10:54 AM
yes
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=63
Could someone in power please transfer this topic to the correct forum,please?
Could someone in power please transfer this topic to the correct forum,please?
I've been told that the forum moderator should be sent a pm asking for the thread to be re-located.
All that is displayed in the church I visit occasionally is a small cross.
Why do you think there's a cross on display?
"You are a good example of why many are leaving spiritualist churches."
Oh, really?
So someone who thinks about 'stuff', understands 'stuff', won't just accept-without-questioning 'stuff' and isn't to be found in Spiritualist churches anyway (US or UK alike) is, quote: "...a good example of why many are leaving spiritualist churches."
go figure...:confused::rolleyes:
Never heard the Spiritualist saying "Spirit loves a questioning mind"? If you're not a Spiritualist you aren't likely to have done I guess...
deepsea
13-12-2011, 12:33 PM
Why do you think there's a cross on display?
i should have said 'There was a cross on display'.
That was quite a while ago. Suddenly remembering last time I was there,the cross must have been removed,can't remember seeing it then.
Next time I visit,going to ask why.
I wonder if it has been explained to the folks who attend why the cross was removed.
deepsea
13-12-2011, 12:34 PM
I've been told that the forum moderator should be sent a pm asking for the thread to be re-located.
They will have to wait for the time being,flat out today.
Serenity Bear
13-12-2011, 02:08 PM
It amazes how many seem to think what Spiritualism is but dont have any idea themselves.
Anyhow I agree this should be in the Spiritualism section and not mediumship although they do go hand in hand.
In the Spiritualist Churches I have frequented there was never any symbols. One had an arty piece of needlecraft on the wall depicting the 7 layers of heaven but that was about it.
We (Spiritualist) dont have symbols because there arent any, nor is there a specific books teachings we follow such as a Bible. This doesnt ofcourse include the Christian Spiritualist who do follow the teachings of Jesus (I think, not been in their churches, sorry if Im wrong).
Anyhow the only symbol I personally associate with my Spiritualist belief is a 7 pointed star (two points at the base, and not the other one) which for me signifies the 7 levels of heaven, the 7 major chakras and the aura etc. I dont think anyone else uses this as its personal to me.
"It amazes how many seem to think what Spiritualism is but dont have any idea themselves."
I am more dismayed by the situation than amazed.... SHIDAD :icon_frown:
Over the past few years I've repeatedly had to give the same explanations, had to argue the same points with folk who know little but delight in telling me I'm wrong, had to detail what Spiritualism (Modern Spiritualism to use the full title) is and what it isn't.
This thread's in the wrong forum but it hardly matters as the original subject quickly got lost anyway - just take a look at the postings from earlier today for example.
What's evident, time after time, is
1. how infrequently contributors read properly what's being said
2. how few clearly address points made
3. how often they misquote (or simply fail to quote) the points they're supposed to be replying to
4. how few are able to focus on discussion without it becoming a Twitter/Facebook-like babble about themselves
5. how many become upset because their beliefs are challenged rather than just accepted without question,and how those challenging (go on then, it's usually me! :D) are called rude for doing it....
Why do I keep bashing away, one might ask? Because I care - it matters to me.
To get back to the original question... LOL... as far as I know, Christian spiritualist churches may display a discrete wooden cross or picture of Jesus. SNU churches usually display an embroidered cloth or picture of the SNU logo - an open book on a blue and yellow background, with the words Light, Nature and Truth.
(From the SNU site: The Spiritualists' National Union is a membership organisation run by its members for its members, to support and unite individual Spiritualists & organisations in a common goal; to promote Spiritualism (http://www.snu.org.uk/spiritualism/spiritualism) through philosophy, science & religion.)
To avoid the on-going bun-fest, perhaps posters could make it clear that they are talking about the spiritualist movement/churches in the UK or USA? *Then* we might avoid the ruffled feathers... (likely chance! :D )
Kaere
13-12-2011, 04:45 PM
A reminder please, to anyone who might be reading. A topic can be discussed without getting personal, I would hope.
Respect: Please respect other member’s and their beliefs, opinions, and views at all times. Abuse and abusive posts (of any nature) will not be tolerated. Breaches of this ruling will result in posts being removed, warnings and if continued, DA. Mocking, and belittling other members also counts as disrespect.
I've moved the thread into Spiritualism. Yes, the best thing to do is just send a staff member a message. We have hundreds of threads and posts to read through and things get missed.
To get back to the original question... LOL... as far as I know, Christian spiritualist churches may display a discrete wooden cross or picture of Jesus. SNU churches usually display an embroidered cloth or picture of the SNU logo - an open book on a blue and yellow background, with the words Light, Nature and Truth.
(From the SNU site: The Spiritualists' National Union is a membership organisation run by its members for its members, to support and unite individual Spiritualists & organisations in a common goal; to promote Spiritualism (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.snu.org.uk%2Fspiri tualism%2Fspiritualism) through philosophy, science & religion.)
To avoid the on-going bun-fest, perhaps posters could make it clear that they are talking about the spiritualist movement/churches in the UK or USA? *Then* we might avoid the ruffled feathers... (likely chance! :D )
yeah, right!
deepsea
13-12-2011, 05:11 PM
"It amazes how many seem to think what Spiritualism is but dont have any idea themselves."
I am more dismayed by the situation than amazed.... SHIDAD :icon_frown:
Over the past few years I've repeatedly had to give the same explanations, had to argue the same points with folk who know little but delight in telling me I'm wrong, had to detail what Spiritualism (Modern Spiritualism to use the full title) is and what it isn't.
This thread's in the wrong forum but it hardly matters as the original subject quickly got lost anyway - just take a look at the postings from earlier today for example.
What's evident, time after time, is
1. how infrequently contributors read properly what's being said
2. how few clearly address points made
3. how often they misquote (or simply fail to quote) the points they're supposed to be replying to
4. how few are able to focus on discussion without it becoming a Twitter/Facebook-like babble about themselves
5. how many become upset because their beliefs are challenged rather than just accepted without question,and how those challenging (go on then, it's usually me! :D) are called rude for doing it....
Why do I keep bashing away, one might ask? Because I care - it matters to me.
And to me. I care a lot about the spiritualist church I attend and would like to see anything applicable shown for each religion of the members who attend. Whether they are Catholic etc,etc.
I know every religion cannot be shown,but think of the world wide interest it would make.
One religion covering all aspects of every religion in the world.
We would all believe in an After Life.
deepsea
13-12-2011, 05:13 PM
A reminder please, to anyone who might be reading. A topic can be discussed without getting personal, I would hope.
Respect: Please respect other member’s and their beliefs, opinions, and views at all times. Abuse and abusive posts (of any nature) will not be tolerated. Breaches of this ruling will result in posts being removed, warnings and if continued, DA. Mocking, and belittling other members also counts as disrespect.
I've moved the thread into Spiritualism. Yes, the best thing to do is just send a staff member a message. We have hundreds of threads and posts to read through and things get missed.
Thank you,Kaere.
I really appreciate that.
Deepsea
pre-dawn
14-12-2011, 03:24 AM
We (Spiritualist) dont have symbols because there arent any, nor is there a specific books teachings we follow such as a Bible.
What then is the basis of your teachings, philosophy and practice?
As this thread continues to run I wonder how many following it (including non-contributing ones) would see - or even call themselves - Spiritualists?
I won't ever know because readers mostly stay just as readers - they rarely 'say' anything.
just a couple of thoughts in passing....
psychoslice
14-12-2011, 08:31 AM
Question everything, don't ever take anything on face value, anyone who tries to organize spirituality into a religion can not be trusted, look what happened to Christianity, if we never question it, we would still be in the dark ages.
deepsea
14-12-2011, 08:37 AM
I never take anything on face value.
I question and hope the answers I get are realistic.
I'm still learning.
psychoslice
14-12-2011, 08:39 AM
I never take anything on face value.
I question and hope the answers I get are realistic.
I'm still learning.
Good on you, I think you will do fine, you have intelligence, that will see you through the ****.
deepsea
14-12-2011, 08:44 AM
Good on you, I think you will do fine, you have intelligence, that will see you through the ****.
Thank you,kind Sir.
It is nice to be praised,don't often get much of that.
Have a nice day!
:smile:
Serenity Bear
14-12-2011, 09:21 AM
What then is the basis of your teachings, philosophy and practice?
Oh dear me, where to start. Heres something to find out about etc:
1. The Fox Sisters at Hydesville New York State 31 March 1848 - thats when Spiritualism official started.
2. The 7 Principles - these are like our commandmants and were given through the mediumship of Emma Hardinge Britain.
3. Our philosophy is that some of us known as mediums can communicate with the dead and thus give messges to the living. We believe in God, angels, spirit guides, helpers etc.
4. We also believe that depending on our ascension (spirituality) when we die we arrive at a Spirit plain that equals that ascension. Most go onto the Summer land but those who have been evil go lower down and vis versa.
5. We are not witches, pagans, druids, and do not in the most part believe in the devil but do believe in evil spirits (ie the lower plains of the Spirit World).
As said above we have no specific book or symbol but some writers such as Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sir Oliver Lodge, etc have books that would show our philosophy so its left up the each Spiritualist to choose their own. We really dont need books or symbols as each of us has our own Spirit guides who helps us in our pathways of life. We carry it in our mind, body, spirits and souls so dont need anything material to show who we are.
pre-dawn
14-12-2011, 02:24 PM
1. The Fox Sisters at Hydesville New York State 31 March 1848 - thats when Spiritualism official started.
The Fox sisters were three sisters from New York who played an important role in the creation of Spiritualism. The three sisters were Leah Fox (1814–1890), Margaret Fox (also called Maggie) (1833–1893) and Kate Fox (1837–1892). The two younger sisters used "rappings" to convince their much older sister and others that they were communicating with spirits. Their older sister then took charge of them and managed their careers for some time. They all enjoyed success as mediums for many years.
In 1888 Margaret confessed that their rappings had been a hoax and publicly demonstrated their method. She attempted to recant her confession the next year, but their reputation was ruined and in less than five years they were all dead, with Margaret and Kate dying in abject poverty. Spiritualism continued as if the confessions of the Fox sisters had never happened."This pattern of confession followed by retraction, which is not uncommon, has supplied both true believers and skeptics with material to support their case, so controversy never ends."
This does not inspire confidence in me.
Edit: above from Wikipedia
This does not inspire confidence in me.
Edit: above from Wikipedia
If you're really interested in Modern Spiritualism, and what it can teach about life, death and what follows, there is a wealth of information that might make you think further than just the odd story of the Fox's.
But if you just enjoy picking at bits and pieces you'll find plenty more online ...
Can't say I'm not even-handed in this approach.
pre-dawn
14-12-2011, 02:50 PM
2. The 7 Principles - these are like our commandmants and were given through the mediumship of Emma Hardinge Britain.
These could very well be just reworked Hindu beliefs.
And with all these woman involved I am surprised that at the patriarchal expression of these principles.
I do not see much much difference between them and what e.g. the Catholic Church teaches.
These could very well be just reworked Hindu beliefs.
And with all these woman involved I am surprised that at the patriarchal expression of these principles.
I do not see much much difference between them and what e.g. the Catholic Church teaches.
Ah. Oi getcha - just pickin' at bits and pieces, then... :wink:
deepsea
14-12-2011, 04:37 PM
'All these women around'?
Hey,hey! Watch it. Us females are usually the brains behind the forums.
:cool:
Neville
14-12-2011, 04:55 PM
There used to be a relic in my Spiritualist Church, but I stopped going.
deepsea
14-12-2011, 05:07 PM
There used to be a relic in my Spiritualist Church, but I stopped going.
Why? Because there was a relic in your church or some other reason?
Kaere
14-12-2011, 05:11 PM
There used to be a relic in my Spiritualist Church, but I stopped going.
Bwahahaha! Neville :hug2:
Question everything, don't ever take anything on face value, anyone who tries to organize spirituality into a religion can not be trusted, look what happened to Christianity, if we never question it, we would still be in the dark ages.
personally my uptake is ,if we hadn't have had the experience of the Fox Sisters in Hydesville in 1848, we would still be in the dark ages. And spirit people themselves tell us to question everything that comes through.
deepsea
14-12-2011, 05:22 PM
Bwahahaha! Neville :hug2:
:laughing7:
Serenity Bear
14-12-2011, 06:31 PM
Is it just me, or is it annoying that we Spiritualist have to yet again defend our religion on a metaphysical forum. HUH!
If one wants to know about Spiritualism then go and find out the truth about it for oneself. One reporter called Hanna Swaffer did just that, maybe one should follow his example instead of trying to pull a religion to pieces.
'All these women around'?
Hey,hey! Watch it. Us females are usually the brains behind the forums.
:cool:
Not the way I see the situation.... :wink: :hug3: :hug:
Is it just me, or is it annoying that we Spiritualist have to yet again defend our religion on a metaphysical forum. HUH!
If one wants to know about Spiritualism then go and find out the truth about it for oneself. One reporter called Hanna (Hannen) Swaffer did just that, maybe one should follow his example instead of trying to pull a religion to pieces.
"Is it just me, or is it annoying that we Spiritualist have to yet again defend our religion on a metaphysical forum?" Well not in this forum as this is the Spiritualism forum (not sure where the 'Metaphysical' forum is but I think there is one somewhere here)
And we're not so much defending Spiritualism as explaining to those who don't have any understanding - lightening their darkness, as it were. :wink:
They come looking for enlightenment and a few may stay after they find it - a good enough outcome I reckon!
Neville
14-12-2011, 07:54 PM
I don't know about having to defend spiritualism, Other beliefs go through similar scrutiny, Wicca being one such and indeed Catholicism..Other forms of Christianity. even Islam.. and as far as i can see its all because the examples that bring a a path into disrepute are the ones that stick in peoples minds. The bad apples to be found in every barrel, the rotten grape on every bunch etc :smile:
deepsea
14-12-2011, 08:11 PM
[quote=mac]Not the way I see the situation.... :wink: :hug3: :hug:[/quote
Now listen here,me old darling......:argue:
:hug2:
Come on,girls,help to defend the female sex.
These could very well be just reworked Hindu beliefs.
And with all these woman involved I am surprised that at the patriarchal expression of these principles.
I do not see much much difference between them and what e.g. the Catholic Church teaches.
Possibly could... doesn't mean they aren't relevant. There are many beliefs amongst spiritualists, but you'll find a broadly christian morality and understanding there which underpins most things.
With all these women involved... I counted three mentioned in Serenity Bear's post... feeling threatened? :D :rolleyes: (Btw, since the origins are rooted in the Victorian era, a patriarchial expression is to be expected. I want them to change the first principle to read ' We recognise the Fatherhood and Motherhood of God' but we can't always get what we want...)
Catholic church... nah, no guilt-trip, for one thing.
[quote=mac]Not the way I see the situation.... :wink: [/quote
Now listen here,me old darling......:argue:
Come on,girls,help to defend the female sex.
Defend? We don' need no defence, sister, we're out there doing the job while the guys nit-pick!! :director:
deepsea
14-12-2011, 08:47 PM
Just got to have a little humour with spirit,they do like to see us happy.
They love to see us laugh.
Thanks for the defence,sisters.
(now where has he disappeared to?):cool:
pre-dawn
15-12-2011, 04:13 AM
Ah. Oi getcha - just pickin' at bits and pieces, then... :wink:
I asked about the basic belief for spiritualism. I am responding to what was offered. One apparently being based on fraud, and the other something quite similar to some other beliefs.
Spiritualism looks to me like a movement that is based on whatever-you-belief plus spirits. What makes it different from whatever-you-belief is the spirits stuff. Since that distinguishes it it is also the most important stuff. Communicating with the dead. Actually listening to the dead because it is mostly a one-way communication, isn't it? The whatever-you-belief can be had in other places, communicating with the living.
Instead of enabling people to cope gracefully with the inevitable end all of us will meet one day spiritualism seems to pander to the attachments, fears and doubts of those who have lost people they loved.
It is like sending the first-aider into the operating theater to perform a heart transplant when one should have focused on delivering a program which would have staved off the heart attack in the first place.
angels eyes
15-12-2011, 04:49 AM
Good on ya Lorraine Holloway-White, that mac thinks he knows it all lol.
:laughing7: I am only new here, and I am really picking up on that too....
angels eyes
15-12-2011, 04:57 AM
I don't know about having to defend spiritualism, Other beliefs go through similar scrutiny, Wicca being one such and indeed Catholicism..Other forms of Christianity. even Islam.. and as far as i can see its all because the examples that bring a a path into disrepute are the ones that stick in peoples minds. The bad apples to be found in every barrel, the rotten grape on every bunch etc :smile:
Well said Neville.
I have read a lot about the persecution the Christians have to bear, especially overseas. It's just heart breaking. I know that Pagans are having problems in the US, loosing jobs etc due to them being Pagan. It's just terrible.
One day, hopefully the world will be at peace. :wink:
psychoslice
15-12-2011, 05:15 AM
While there is division there will never be what we call peace in the world, its just the way it is.
pre-dawn
15-12-2011, 05:24 AM
I don't know about having to defend spiritualism, Other beliefs go through similar scrutiny, Wicca being one such and indeed Catholicism..Other forms of Christianity. even Islam.. and as far as i can see its all because the examples that bring a a path into disrepute are the ones that stick in peoples minds. The bad apples to be found in every barrel, the rotten grape on every bunch etc :smile:
I can agree with that but when the apparently rotten fruit is given as the beginning of something I would say that this is something quite different.
Note that so far not even the defenders of spiritualism in this forum have said that the fraud perpetrated is not true.
Since Wikipedia is open to anyone for editing why is that claim still there, or at least countered, if it is not true? So far, everything points to that it is.
quote=pre-dawn
I asked about the basic belief for spiritualism. I am responding to what was offered. One apparently being based on fraud, and the other something quite similar to some other beliefs.
Spiritualism looks to me like a movement that is based on whatever-you-belief plus spirits. What makes it different from whatever-you-belief is the spirits stuff. Since that distinguishes it it is also the most important stuff. Communicating with the dead. Actually listening to the dead because it is mostly a one-way communication, isn't it? Is it? You seem quickly to have scanned the whole scene and know all there is to know.... The whatever-you-belief can be had in other places, communicating with the living.
Instead of enabling people to cope gracefully with the inevitable end all of us will meet one day spiritualism seems to pander to the attachments, fears and doubts of those who have lost people they loved. ditto the above
It is like sending the first-aider into the operating theater to perform a heart transplant when one should have focused on delivering a program which would have staved off the heart attack in the first place. I stick by what I said earlier. If you're interested in understanding you'll find plenty to study. It's pretty evident from the way you write that you come only to disparage, not to investigate.
Oi getcha....
:laughing7: I am only new here, and I am really picking up on that too....
I hope you're also picking up on stuff that might matter, rather than the silliness that comes from certain contributors?
pre-dawn
15-12-2011, 12:01 PM
quote=pre-dawn
Actually listening to the dead because it is mostly a one-way communication, isn't it? Is it? You seem quickly to have scanned the whole scene and know all there is to know....
I put a question mark at the end of my sentence. You saw that, but your response is still to tackle the man instead of the ball.
The field is still open to post more than just assertions that I am wrong in my opinions. I am willing to read a small number of articles but I am certainly not willing to spend an inordinate amount of time on researching the topic.
I put a question mark at the end of my sentence. You saw that, but your response is still to tackle the man instead of the ball.
The field is still open to post more than just assertions that I am wrong in my opinions. I am willing to read a small number of articles but I am certainly not willing to spend an inordinate amount of time on researching the topic.
I saw your question mark. It was at the end of one sentence. I answered in similar vein....with a question mark at the end. The rest of your piece was: "Spiritualism looks to me like a movement that is based on whatever-you-belief plus spirits. What makes it different from whatever-you-belief is the spirits stuff. Since that distinguishes it it is also the most important stuff. Communicating with the dead." And that's what I was challenged you about - not the single sentence with a question mark at its conclusion. One thing it ain't is communicating with the dead.
Your opinions CAN'T be wrong because they're your personal views - of course you can hold whatever personal views you choose. But the basis on which you reach 'em MIGHT be incorrect. Perhaps you don't see any difference?
As with all matters you're the final arbiter.
I asked about the basic belief for spiritualism. I am responding to what was offered. One apparently being based on fraud, and the other something quite similar to some other beliefs.
Spiritualism looks to me like a movement that is based on whatever-you-belief plus spirits. What makes it different from whatever-you-belief is the spirits stuff. Since that distinguishes it it is also the most important stuff. Communicating with the dead. Actually listening to the dead because it is mostly a one-way communication, isn't it? The whatever-you-belief can be had in other places, communicating with the living.
Instead of enabling people to cope gracefully with the inevitable end all of us will meet one day spiritualism seems to pander to the attachments, fears and doubts of those who have lost people they loved.
It is like sending the first-aider into the operating theater to perform a heart transplant when one should have focused on delivering a program which would have staved off the heart attack in the first place.
Hi pre-dawn,
In March 1848 via a 2 way link the Fox sisters successfully communicated with a spirit communicator named Charles B Rosna, who was a pedlar. His communication revealed he had been murdered in 1843 by a previous tenant of the house, John C Bell, and his body had been hidden in the cellar.
A year or so afterwards, the Fox sisters did confess to fraud and yes, this statement was later retracted. However what Wikkipedia and other similar sources fail to mention is that 56 years after the statement was retracted, in 1904 the physical remains of this pedlar was found hidden in the cellar walls.
Subsequently, the rappings at Hydesville on March 31st 1848 led to the birth of Modern Spiritualism because it established that communication with the 'so called dead' was possible. Furthermore it showed spirits had retained their intelligence and memory. Interest in the event allowed other people to carry out their own experiments, whereby it was found that some people also had mediumistic ability. Spiritualism became increasingly popular as people continued to receive evidence that their loved ones were not dead as previously claimed by the orthodox religion of the day.
The Seven Principles of Spiritualism came through the mediumship of Emma Hardinge Britten, by Robert Owen. These principles are the basis of a Spritualists philosophy. They are not subject to one persons control or dogma. Each Spiritualist decides how to interpret each individual principle with the understanding and knowledge that they alone are personally responsible as well as answerable for all of their thoughts, deeds and actions, both here in the physical world and in the world of spirit.
angels eyes
16-12-2011, 12:41 AM
I hope you're also picking up on stuff that might matter, rather than the silliness that comes from certain contributors?
Of course Mac. :smile:
Peace and Blessings to you. :hug2:
Neville
16-12-2011, 09:58 AM
I can agree with that but when the apparently rotten fruit is given as the beginning of something I would say that this is something quite different.
There may still be parallels Pre-Dawn. The Fox Sisters, regarded as the founders of Modern spiritualism may have been table knockers..I neither know or care if I am honest..mac said personal belief was up to us as individuals as the final arbiter. I certainly see that cognitive bias rules the roost with me. I am at the beck and call of my perceptions.
But as I look across the pantheon of beliefs/sects/religions..Are they not all started by someone who was maligned as well as followed. Did not the rotten apple present first...e.g. Jesus the Heretic, Crowley (Golden Dawn Founder) pervert and Junkie. Buddha the vagrant. Its all down to how you see things.
My observations indicate to me (for example) that Spiritualism significantly Predates the Fox sisters.
the fox sisters had a very stressful adult life - a public life that they were not prepared for ---- did they pad their original mediumship with some not so mediumistic showmanship? probably
but the original incident knocks, the peddler whose remains were found in the basement, his name - that original evidence of mediumship could not have been faked...
deepsea
16-12-2011, 12:09 PM
Why don't they just stop interfering in the local churches and let them put whatever artifacs they would like to display?
As long as they are of religious intent and as long the churches are drawing in the crowds to celebrate the spiritualist religion,who cares?
Why don't they just stop interfering in the local churches and let them put whatever artifacs they would like to display?
As long as they are of religious intent and as long the churches are drawing in the crowds to celebrate the spiritualist religion,who cares?
I care....
A Spiritualist church teaches Spiritualist philosophy and Modern Spiritualism does not use religious symbols. I like the way it doesn't.
I'd be happy to learn there are crowds in our churches. I'd be happy to learn they are persuaded by what Spiritualism offers.
I'd be less happy to learn that folk turn up because symbols of other religions attract 'em. Having said that if they subsequently became persuaded by Spiritualism and what it offers, then I guess I could live with it.... :wink:
deepsea
16-12-2011, 01:17 PM
I suppose I feel that Spiritualism is for all,Mac.
We are all going to 'live' in the spirit world sometime.
What did SB say? Something like 'there is only one god and that is the Great Spirit'.
When I talk about different religions being acknowledged in the spiritualist church,by some small effect being shown,how about something on the wall like a flag display of all those countries who do accept spiritualism?
Will that suit you?
:wink: :smile:
My observations indicate to me (for example) that Spiritualism significantly Predates the Fox sisters.
Psychic phenomena and Spiritualism did exist long before the Fox sisters, no one is denying this. However the Fox sisters Kate 12 and Margaretta 14,actually received communication from a person who happened to give evidence of his survival and that he was alive and well. Although if one believed the Catholic church as they did at that time, they were lying 'dead' in their graves.
pre-dawn
16-12-2011, 02:17 PM
But as I look across the pantheon of beliefs/sects/religions..Are they not all started by someone who was maligned as well as followed. Did not the rotten apple present first...e.g. Jesus the Heretic, Crowley (Golden Dawn Founder) pervert and Junkie. Buddha the vagrant. Its all down to how you see things. How can one compare people who are maligned by others for their new, maybe heretical beliefs, with self-confessed fraudsters?
Neville
16-12-2011, 02:56 PM
How can one compare people who are maligned by others for their new, maybe heretical beliefs, with self-confessed fraudsters?
Good point, some fraudsters are not self confessed :smile:
I suppose I feel that Spiritualism is for all,Mac.
We are all going to 'live' in the spirit world sometime.
What did SB say? Something like 'there is only one god and that is the Great Spirit'.
When I talk about different religions being acknowledged in the spiritualist church,by some small effect being shown,how about something on the wall like a flag display of all those countries who do accept spiritualism?
Will that suit you?
:wink: :smile:
Spiritualism doesn't suit everyone and will fully appeal only when the time is right.
Of course we all came from, and will return to, the etheric world, the so-called world of the spirit but knowing about Modern Spiritualism isn't necessary for it to happen.
It doesn't matter what Silver Birch taught about God, his words won't mean much to those not ready for them. And Silver Birch isn't Spiritualism, let's not forget....:wink:
As for church symbols, SNU president, David Bruton - interviewed for January 2012 edition of 'Two Worlds' - remarked that the SNU wrote to all churches last year to remind them about the requirement that churches should not display the trappings of other religions. As those churches receive support from the SNU they are expected to subscribe to its rules.
If church members are not willing to follow the SNU rules, then either they should leave that church or that church should leave the SNU if sufficient members feel strongly enough and will also provide the necessary support - no small task I suggest.
Although I'm not a church-goer I firmly support the role of the Spiritualist church. I am not a member of the SNU (and haven't been in 26 years a Spiritualist) but I fully support what the SNU expects in terms of 'religious trappings'.
I see no justification for displaying symbols - not even a flag as you've suggested. :hug3::hug:
deepsea
16-12-2011, 04:41 PM
Ok,ok, I stand corrected. :rolleyes:
To me a church is a place of praying,a church whatever kind of church means religion where we pray and hope we have been taught something of value.
I often have wondered why the word 'Spiritualist' is followed by the word 'church'.
I would say the better word should be 'hall' or 'meeting place'.
:hug2: :D
Ok,ok, I stand corrected. :rolleyes:
To me a church is a place of praying,a church whatever kind of church means religion where we pray and hope we have been taught something of value.
I often have wondered why the word 'Spiritualist' is followed by the word 'church'.
I would say the better word should be 'hall' or 'meeting place'.
:hug2: :D
I agree.
Mansfield's is called a 'centre' because a previous president worked hard to get it changed. He battled the then committee to change things.
He didn't like the word 'church' either but any church or centre is only whatever its committee and congregation make it.
deepsea
16-12-2011, 06:21 PM
Now I come to think of it,I have a strong feeling that the spiritualist 'hall' in our area,is not called 'church'.
I must check on that.
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