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deepsea
11-12-2011, 10:54 AM
I have a deep faith in Spiritualism and the fact that when we die,we leave our mortal bodies and depart for another dimension.
I'm calling the spirit world a 'dimension' because I think that's all it is.
I am not even sure of the fact of reincarnation any more.
I could go into that subject but would be off topic.

Spiritualism is becoming very over rated these days.
The subject is rife wherever we go,who ever we talk to.
Facts are given out,discussed till the subject is threadbare.
But still no actual proof is forthcoming.
We are fed on events from the past constantly until I feel I am living in the past.
Not in the present,where my body and mind should be.
We are constantly fed on quotes from mediums from past times until I feel choked with them.
Now is the time to open recent events showing proof that spirit do exist.
Where is that proof?
Deepsea

Perfect Storm
11-12-2011, 11:02 AM
I often think the same way deepsea.

I have times of thinking.'is this really real?'

I think the problem is that we expect something profound. Something to makes think ' OMG that was it' We want or expect something so obvious - when in fact its only small and barely noticable.

I think our bodies/mind/5 sense overwhelm us so thats all we feel and do not notice anything else.

That my current thoughts about it. its breaking the physical world hold on our senses so we can percieve that other dimensions.

deepsea
11-12-2011, 11:07 AM
Glad to have an ally.

Proof what I was saying.
It takes the small events to convince us not the large events that are constantly shoved down our throats.

:icon_frown:

Native spirit
11-12-2011, 01:30 PM
:hug: Hi deepsea,

It changes from person to person.we all have our own views the spirit world is real you have had many messages im sure to prove this to you,
but spiritulism is changing it has to it cant stay in the past, but it does exsist believe me,
gone are the days that mediums sat in circles in their homes, maybe its right or maybe its wrong only you can decide that,
but come into the new year and the shift will change again, more people will look to spiritulism, everything has its highs and lows, this is the low even though its still there, more people will become aware of it

Namaste

deepsea
11-12-2011, 02:07 PM
:hug: Hi deepsea,

It changes from person to person.we all have our own views the spirit world is real you have had many messages im sure to prove this to you,
but spiritulism is changing it has to it cant stay in the past, but it does exsist believe me,
gone are the days that mediums sat in circles in their homes, maybe its right or maybe its wrong only you can decide that,
but come into the new year and the shift will change again, more people will look to spiritulism, everything has its highs and lows, this is the low even though its still there, more people will become aware of it

Namaste

I still believe in Spiritualism but saying it has fallen to an alltime low.
Look at the sites that are closing down,not many left except this site and one or two others.
Deepsea x

mattie
11-12-2011, 03:18 PM
You should always use your own judgment to determine when various things are impeding your ability to fully live in the now as well use your own discernment about what works for you. Being a curious skeptic is a very useful position.

It is likely that when we depart our physical body that the nonphysical D will be just as real to us as our physical one is to us now. By this I don’t mean it will be the same or that we will perceive our bodies as solid, as it will be different in that regard, but that it will be just as alive w/ our interacting w/ other energies just as easily as we do w/ others in physicality right now.

Our having real doubts can be part of being at a fairly advanced place in our journey. These doubts don’t surface when we’re in the blissed-out newbie stage, but when we have done enough real work to stop & look at things in a distanced way, not being overly invested in any particular outcome. These can be a sign of substantial progress.

I agree w/ Native spirit that spiritualism is changing from the ‘... days that mediums sat in circles in their homes.’ IMO, this is OK as the constant in the Universe is change, growth, & expansion. IMO, the worst thing that can happen to spiritual practices, both personally & w/ groups is stasis. There is allot of evidence that the amount of people awakening is exponential. Continually there are those signing in on this site mentioning how they have gotten a sudden & strong impetus to explore their spirituality (classic awakening).

Some sites may be closing, but there can be allot of reasons for this ranging from them being a small group w/ ideas that don’t change that gets tired hashing over the same stuff to the site not having strong moderators & management, & being taken over by bullies who run off all of the former site members until the management just gives up & closes it. Many people may be gravitating to larger sites such as this because a mix of people is often productive for many reasons. From 9/26/11 to 12/11/11 this site has gained 627 members. As one can view replies here as a guest I’m fairly sure the new guests that visit, but don’t actually join are a much higher figure than 627.

deepsea
11-12-2011, 04:49 PM
'Some sites may be closing, but there can be allot of reasons for this ranging from them being a small group w/ ideas that don’t change that gets tired hashing over the same stuff to the site not having strong moderators & management, & being taken over by bullies who run off all of the former site members until the management just gives up & closes it. Many people may be gravitating to larger sites such as this because a mix of people is often productive for many reasons. From 9/26/11 to 12/11/11 this site has gained 627 members. As one can view replies here as a guest I’m fairly sure the new guests that visit, but don’t actually join are a much higher figure than 627.'


I agree with all of the above,Mattie.

I have left three sites because of bullying.
Extremely upsetting.
Management did nothing to stop the bullying.
Luckily found other sites including this one.
I love the variety here and friendliness.
But so true what you say,different reasons for breakdown of spiritualism.
All three sites were spiritualism based.
Does not give spiritualism a very good name.
Deepsea

Patangel
17-01-2012, 07:17 AM
I have a deep faith in Spiritualism and the fact that when we die,we leave our mortal bodies and depart for another dimension.
I'm calling the spirit world a 'dimension' because I think that's all it is.
I am not even sure of the fact of reincarnation any more.
I could go into that subject but would be off topic.

Spiritualism is becoming very over rated these days.
The subject is rife wherever we go,who ever we talk to.
Facts are given out,discussed till the subject is threadbare.
But still no actual proof is forthcoming.
We are fed on events from the past constantly until I feel I am living in the past.
Not in the present,where my body and mind should be.
We are constantly fed on quotes from mediums from past times until I feel choked with them.
Now is the time to open recent events showing proof that spirit do exist.
Where is that proof?
Deepsea


all of us 'old time' Spiritualists think that at times.

there are so many charlatans around in everything these days so why would Spiritualism be any different.

Also it's the way of world at present..everyone wants an 'instant fix'. So many want to be a reader or do platform work without the training.

I believe it's deliberate and dark forces are at work to divert genuine Spiritualist's attention and away from their beliefs.

deepsea
17-01-2012, 07:47 AM
I hope you are right,Patangel.

Cos at this moment in time,I am going through the worst time of my life and could do with a little help.
I am losing interest in spirit,losing interest in spiritualism.
:icon_frown:

Enya
18-01-2012, 04:37 PM
One thing to remember, Deepsea - Spirit is not spiritualism...it's not the ego-based human responses and power trips, either. Go deep Within, sit with your own soul/spirit and remember the truth. The spiritualist movement as it is has served its purpose - new pioneers are quietly taking the next steps.

deepsea
18-01-2012, 04:45 PM
One thing to remember, Deepsea - Spirit is not spiritualism...it's not the ego-based human responses and power trips, either. Go deep Within, sit with your own soul/spirit and remember the truth. The spiritualist movement as it is has served its purpose - new pioneers are quietly taking the next steps.

That is something new to me,Enya.
'new pioneers' I would be very interested to know about that.
Hopefully better than what we have now,old outdated ideas and constant quotes from long ago.
:smile:

mac
18-01-2012, 04:50 PM
One thing to remember, Deepsea - Spirit is not spiritualism...it's not the ego-based human responses and power trips, either. Go deep Within, sit with your own soul/spirit and remember the truth. The spiritualist movement as it is has served its purpose - new pioneers are quietly taking the next steps.

I hope you're right. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Modern Spiritualist but without any unrealistic notions about its present-day role....

But I have still to be convinced there are "new pioneers" waiting in the wings - I just hope that it's so....

CuriousSnowflake
18-01-2012, 05:17 PM
I have a deep faith in Spiritualism and the fact that when we die,we leave our mortal bodies and depart for another dimension.
I'm calling the spirit world a 'dimension' because I think that's all it is.
I am not even sure of the fact of reincarnation any more.
I could go into that subject but would be off topic.

Spiritualism is becoming very over rated these days.
The subject is rife wherever we go,who ever we talk to.
Facts are given out,discussed till the subject is threadbare.
But still no actual proof is forthcoming.
We are fed on events from the past constantly until I feel I am living in the past.
Not in the present,where my body and mind should be.
We are constantly fed on quotes from mediums from past times until I feel choked with them.
Now is the time to open recent events showing proof that spirit do exist.
Where is that proof?
Deepsea


The biggest problem is this idea that "proof" is necessary. Spirituality is an experience, and experiences are 100% subjective; ya can't prove 'em. Sadly, the Internet is the realm of the young, and the young are far more interested in the shiny baubles and drama of spirituality (soulmates, tantra, kundalini, energy play, "evil" spirits, etc.) than in the slow, steady work of the evolution of self. So Cyberspace tends to have 10x as much info on candle rituals and attracting your "twinflame" than on deep, meaningful spiritual ideas.

So what does that mean for us seekers? That which we do not find we must create. That means slogging away at our ideas and trusting All That Is to draw others of like mind to us. Slow and boring, I know, but worthwhile, IMHO.

CS

deepsea
18-01-2012, 05:34 PM
The biggest problem is this idea that "proof" is necessary. Spirituality is an experience, and experiences are 100% subjective; ya can't prove 'em. Sadly, the Internet is the realm of the young, and the young are far more interested in the shiny baubles and drama of spirituality (soulmates, tantra, kundalini, energy play, "evil" spirits, etc.) than in the slow, steady work of the evolution of self. So Cyberspace tends to have 10x as much info on candle rituals and attracting your "twinflame" than on deep, meaningful spiritual ideas.

So what does that mean for us seekers? That which we do not find we must create. That means slogging away at our ideas and trusting All That Is to draw others of like mind to us. Slow and boring, I know, but worthwhile, IMHO.

CS

Excellent advice,CuriousSnowflake.

I can believe what you are saying,I want to know about the true spiritualism.
Not the frills that surround it.
Thank you so much,CS.
I appreciate your straight forward speaking.
This what I prefer,not the fancy stuff that comes with it.
Deepsea

mac
18-01-2012, 09:54 PM
The biggest problem is this idea that "proof" is necessary. Spirituality is an experience, and experiences are 100% subjective; ya can't prove 'em. Sadly, the Internet is the realm of the young, and the young are far more interested in the shiny baubles and drama of spirituality (soulmates, tantra, kundalini, energy play, "evil" spirits, etc.) than in the slow, steady work of the evolution of self. So Cyberspace tends to have 10x as much info on candle rituals and attracting your "twinflame" than on deep, meaningful spiritual ideas.

So what does that mean for us seekers? That which we do not find we must create. That means slogging away at our ideas and trusting All That Is to draw others of like mind to us. Slow and boring, I know, but worthwhile, IMHO.

CS
You've said, quote: "Spirituality is an experience,...." whereas this forum is for subjects connected with Spiritualism.

Spiritualism and spirituality are not the same.....

Enya
18-01-2012, 10:29 PM
That is something new to me,Enya.
'new pioneers' I would be very interested to know about that.
Hopefully better than what we have now,old outdated ideas and constant quotes from long ago.
:smile:
Well, I can only go by what my teacher and spirit friends have told me, but plans are certainly 'afoot' and work is being done which will eventually lead to new schools of excellence all over the world, run on a strict ethos which has no room for human ego but where all is done with an intent of integrity, truth and service.

One of the goals, for instance, is to hold conferences where spirit teachers can speak, manifest and work through their mediums in daylight, for all to see! This will, of course, be dependent on the development of the mediums involved but it is already in the eaerly stages.

I'm not privy to everything Spirit has planned, but I am honoured to be a small cog in the machinery...

mac
18-01-2012, 10:43 PM
Well, I can only go by what my teacher and spirit friends have told me, but plans are certainly 'afoot' and work is being done which will eventually lead to new schools of excellence all over the world, run on a strict ethos which has no room for human ego but where all is done with an intent of integrity, truth and service.

One of the goals, for instance, is to hold conferences where spirit teachers can speak, manifest and work through their mediums in daylight, for all to see! This will, of course, be dependent on the development of the mediums involved but it is already in the eaerly stages.

I'm not privy to everything Spirit has planned, but I am honoured to be a small cog in the machinery...

That's interesting. It sounds highly ambitious but, hey, I'll try to be positive and look forward to hearing how it all goes - I don't expect to be around this time when it all kicks off but maybe I'll take a look on my next visit. :hug3:

Enya
18-01-2012, 11:00 PM
That's interesting. It sounds highly ambitious but, hey, I'll try to be positive and look forward to hearing how it all goes - I don't expect to be around this time when it all kicks off but maybe I'll take a look on my next visit. :hug3:
It *is* highly ambitious, but not outwith the realms of possibility... if everything falls into place. Spirit have nothing if not time, so it could be a generation away or a close as ten years from now. The foundations will certainly be in place within the next 15-20 years, all being well, perhaps sooner. :smile:

mac
19-01-2012, 01:02 AM
It *is* highly ambitious, but not outwith the realms of possibility... if everything falls into place. Spirit have nothing if not time, so it could be a generation away or a close as ten years from now. The foundations will certainly be in place within the next 15-20 years, all being well, perhaps sooner. :smile:

I don't disagree it's totally do-able....

We'll just have to see how it all works out eventually - well some of us will, those who expect/intend to re-visit this physical domain. Folk like myself.... :wink:

If I had to make a guess I'd say there won't be the same use of mediums and that any new generation of them will have different roles, focusing less on personal, evidential work and more on the conveyance of general information about our survival beyond corporeal death.

CuriousSnowflake
19-01-2012, 01:19 AM
You've said, quote: "Spirituality is an experience,...." whereas this forum is for subjects connected with Spiritualism.

Spiritualism and spirituality are not the same.....

"It's not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Isms in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself."

-Ferris Buehler.

CS

mac
19-01-2012, 01:29 AM
"It's not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Isms in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself."

-Ferris Buehler.

CS

It don't make him right and it isn't relevant to this forum or topic.....

And I like to speak for myself - not use the words of others.

psychoslice
19-01-2012, 01:43 AM
Existence is the only proof you need, you know we are here, you know we die and other bodies are born, we know that universes come and go also, so we know there is more to the world than matter that makes all these things known to us. behind all this is pure Essence, pure Consciousness, out of this Consciousness everything arises and disappears back into it, that is all you need to know, the rest is guessing.

mac
19-01-2012, 03:02 AM
Existence is the only proof you need, you know we are here, you know we die and other bodies are born, we know that universes come and go also, so we know there is more to the world than matter that makes all these things known to us. behind all this is pure Essence, pure Consciousness, out of this Consciousness everything arises and disappears back into it, that is all you need to know, the rest is guessing.

"....and disappears back into it, that is all you need to know,"

Ah my dear psycho friend.... Maybe it's all you need to know but no-one may speak for others on such matters. :wink: :hug:

psychoslice
19-01-2012, 03:13 AM
"....and disappears back into it, that is all you need to know,"

Ah my dear psycho friend.... Maybe it's all you need to know but no-one may speak for others on such matters. :wink: :hug:
I don't need to know anything more, all the rest to me is just games, called spiritual practice, if that's what you want to play with then that's up to you, I'm not taking anything away from you.:smile:

mac
19-01-2012, 05:08 AM
I don't need to know anything more, all the rest to me is just games, called spiritual practice, if that's what you want to play with then that's up to you, I'm not taking anything away from you.:smile:

Indeed you're not taking anything away - you couldn't if you tried! :D

To you, quote: "...all the rest" may well appear to be games that you call spiritual practice. Early learning can also appear as games to young children. I well remember the horror I felt when our young daughter used to return home telling us of the 'games' she'd been playing in school. Only later when I became an educator did I understand, and then teach, those same 'games', building blocks for the kids' overall education.

So although you see 'play', perhaps it's best not to dismiss or discount too readily - even for yourself. :wink:

deepsea
19-01-2012, 09:15 AM
I hope you're right. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Modern Spiritualist but without any unrealistic notions about its present-day role....

But I have still to be convinced there are "new pioneers" waiting in the wings - I just hope that it's so....

So do I,Mac.

Awaiting the next step up for forward motion in the subject of spiritualism.

psychoslice
19-01-2012, 09:30 AM
Indeed you're not taking anything away - you couldn't if you tried! :D

To you, quote: "...all the rest" may well appear to be games that you call spiritual practice. Early learning can also appear as games to young children. I well remember the horror I felt when our young daughter used to return home telling us of the 'games' she'd been playing in school. Only later when I became an educator did I understand, and then teach, those same 'games', building blocks for the kids' overall education.

So although you see 'play', perhaps it's best not to dismiss or discount too readily - even for yourself. :wink:
There your games not mine, I have no use for them, happy playing, yea yea.:icon_bounce: :icon_jokercolor:

glenos
19-01-2012, 10:04 AM
The power is building and building Joanie. There IS something coming. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.



G

MMM
19-01-2012, 10:31 AM
there are some great spiritualists out there now
there are great physical mediums, healers and mental mediums
there are fine ministers as well but there'll never be another emma britten or gordon higginson...

deepsea
19-01-2012, 01:09 PM
The power is building and building Joanie. There IS something coming. Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey.



G

You feel it too,G?
:smile:

CuriousSnowflake
19-01-2012, 01:58 PM
It don't make him right and it isn't relevant to this forum or topic.....

And I like to speak for myself - not use the words of others.

I find and use truth where'er it may appear, and in this case I happen to agree with Mr. Hughes. I don't like -isms. I very deliberately didn't use the word "spiritualism" because the -ism implies a set structure, a universal framework which I don't think exists. Spirituality, the experience, is what's important, not any one person's rules that they build around their experiences. You make rules, you attract people who don't like to think for themselves, and you end up with situations like what the OP is decrying. Thus the relevance of my choice of words.

CS

mac
19-01-2012, 02:38 PM
I find and use truth where'er it may appear, and in this case I happen to agree with Mr. Hughes. I don't like -isms. I very deliberately didn't use the word "spiritualism" because the -ism implies a set structure, a universal framework which I don't think exists. Spirituality, the experience, is what's important, not any one person's rules that they build around their experiences. You make rules, you attract people who don't like to think for themselves, and you end up with situations like what the OP is decrying. Thus the relevance of my choice of words.

CS

The truth as you believe it to be, your 'personal truth'.... It's not a universal one, the only real test of truth.

You have avoided using the term 'Spiritualism' (capital S to denote the religion and philosophy of Modern Spiritualism) for your personal prejudices but in a forum set up for its discussion, and in a thread entitled "Is Spiritualism all it's made out to be" that's somewhat incongruous....

You say spirituality, the experience, is what's important etc. but what you're really saying is that it's what's important to you personally. Again it's not a universal truth, the only truth, it's simply your values you're espousing and they're not Spiritualism.

Despite your belief, Spiritualism (not flexibly defined spirituality) does haves a firm structure although I wouldn't call it a "universal framework". It's a very simple structure fundamentally although it can readily be expanded, should one wish, to gain a deeper, broader understanding of what life - and death - is about.

And in doing that it's not down to having any 'personal truth' because it applies to all and anyone - the acid test, the universality, of 'truth'.

mac
19-01-2012, 02:43 PM
There your games not mine, I have no use for them, happy playing, yea yea.:icon_bounce: :icon_jokercolor:

They're not games at all, not games in the way you're pretending they are, but of course you know that already.... :wink: Some members might think you don't....

You're the negative to anything positive - and that's OK - there's balance in all matters :hug3:

mac
19-01-2012, 02:51 PM
there are some great spiritualists out there now
there are great physical mediums, healers and mental mediums
there are fine ministers as well but there'll never be another emma britten or gordon higginson...
As I was saying to Enya, the field of mediumship as it's been known for decades, may not be the way of any future movement....

It's all too easy to look to the past, to mediums of the present, and assume that they are the future, that mediumship will be the same as we've known it.

Not for the first time I'll say that my personal belief (and I rarely express personal belief!) is that Modern Spiritualism has run its course. In the future there will be something different, maybe vastly different.

The truth can't ever change but the way it gets presented can - and probably will.

Enya
19-01-2012, 04:44 PM
If I had to make a guess I'd say there won't be the same use of mediums and that any new generation of them will have different roles, focusing less on personal, evidential work and more on the conveyance of general information about our survival beyond corporeal death.
I agree, this is far more likely, being a sharing of knowledge and insight directly from Spirit and going beyond the need for evidence, although I think there will always be some working in that field.

glenos
19-01-2012, 05:08 PM
You feel it too,G?
:smile:


Most certainly J. Sommat's going on. The wheel has almost gone full circle. And it's going to go around again.


G

mac
19-01-2012, 06:49 PM
I agree, this is far more likely, being a sharing of knowledge and insight directly from Spirit and going beyond the need for evidence, although I think there will always be some working in that field.
Evidential mediumship is a feature of Modern Spiritualism - it provides those who receive it with the evidence that life goes on. It's the bedrock of Spiritualist philosophy. A major concern when mediumship is at a low ebb.

But communication from discarnates to incarnates has probably happened in one form or another since humankind began to articulate its thoughts through language - maybe even before then. Quite whether that was in the form of evidential mediumship we can't know.

Whatever the outcome in the future it's probably not going to be called Spiritualism and I wouldn't mind that in the least. The word has too many negative connotations now anyway and a new name would be a good thing - even though the truth can never be any different - only the way it's presented... .:wink:

deepsea
19-01-2012, 09:20 PM
Most certainly J. Sommat's going on. The wheel has almost gone full circle. And it's going to go around again.


G

Atmosphere,G?
Disasters?
Earthquakes?
Though I don't feel it is anything to with our planet.
Just a general uneasiness.
J.

psychoslice
19-01-2012, 10:09 PM
They're not games at all, not games in the way you're pretending they are, but of course you know that already.... :wink: Some members might think you don't....

You're the negative to anything positive - and that's OK - there's balance in all matters :hug3:
Don't be childish, I'm not saying your games are right or wrong, just saying there games, like all else here in this so called human life, what I say and do is my game, can't you admit that, what are you trying to hide, you try to make out that you know everything about spirituality, but you don't, can you abmit that?.

glenos
19-01-2012, 10:48 PM
Atmosphere,G?
Disasters?
Earthquakes?
Though I don't feel it is anything to with our planet.
Just a general uneasiness.
J.


Not negative J. Absolutely positive.


G

Left Behind
19-01-2012, 11:08 PM
I believe it's deliberate and dark forces are at work to divert genuine Spiritualist's attention and away from their beliefs.

COULD be! :icon_eek:

Left Behind
19-01-2012, 11:13 PM
I hope you're right. I'm a dyed-in-the-wool Modern Spiritualist but without any unrealistic notions about its present-day role....

But I have still to be convinced there are "new pioneers" waiting in the wings - I just hope that it's so....

I believe something good is going to happen - albeit gradually - as Spiritualists, Near Death experiencers and researchers, and traditional religionists, start cooperating: or, more likely, as researchers and investigators and seekers (like Fontana) start incorporating approaches and information and revelation from all of these disciplines, into a unified approach to spirit. :smile:

Jim

mac
20-01-2012, 12:29 AM
Don't be childish, I'm not saying your games are right or wrong, just saying there games, like all else here in this so called human life, what I say and do is my game, can't you admit that, what are you trying to hide, you try to make out that you know everything about spirituality, but you don't, can you abmit that?.

childish? You little flatterer, psycho - I'm 64! :hug: By the way, I read exactly what you said - I always do.

Me know everything about spirituality? yeah, right! I don't think I know anything about spirituality.... I don't even know everything about Spiritualism and that's my speciality!

And I wonder what I'm supposed to be trying to hide? Looks like I must've succeeded as even I can't find whatever it is! :D

You do make me chuckle, psycho....:hug:

mac
20-01-2012, 12:40 AM
I believe something good is going to happen - albeit gradually - as Spiritualists, Near Death experiencers and researchers, and traditional religionists, start cooperating: or, more likely, as researchers and investigators and seekers (like Fontana) start incorporating approaches and information and revelation from all of these disciplines, into a unified approach to spirit. :smile:

Jim
Maintaining my consistent approach to matters spiritual I hold no belief about the future.

But I do hope that all the optimism expressed here will eventually be met with positive outcomes that move forward humankind's understanding of the great spirit and all it encompasses....

psychoslice
20-01-2012, 12:44 AM
childish? You little flatterer, psycho - I'm 64! :hug: By the way, I read exactly what you said - I always do.

Me know everything about spirituality? yeah, right! I don't think I know anything about spirituality.... I don't even know everything about Spiritualism and that's my speciality!

And I wonder what I'm supposed to be trying to hide? Looks like I must've succeeded as even I can't find whatever it is! :D

You do make me chuckle, psycho....:hug:
He He, we can be childish at any age, and I sort of liked your vibes in your reply, yes i know nothing either lol, so were even.:hug2:

mac
20-01-2012, 12:53 AM
"yes i know nothing either lol, so were even" not exactly.... I didn't say I know nothing - only that I didn't know anything about spirituality. :wink:

psychoslice
20-01-2012, 01:02 AM
"yes i know nothing either lol, so were even" not exactly.... I didn't say I know nothing - only that I didn't know anything about spirituality. :wink:

You little trickster you, I'll let you get away with that one, I'm in a good mood today lol.:blob3:

mac
20-01-2012, 01:27 AM
You little trickster you, I'll let you get away with that one, I'm in a good mood today lol.:blob3:

there ya go...:hug3::hug:

Left Behind
20-01-2012, 03:10 AM
And I wonder what I'm supposed to be trying to hide? Looks like I must've succeeded as even I can't find whatever it is! :D

:hug:

You're like the Laurel and Hardy movie, Mac: the guy joined the Foreign Legion to forget: and he forgot what it was he came there to forget!

Which means that he succeeded, in my opinion. :D

Jim

Left Behind
20-01-2012, 03:11 AM
Maintaining my consistent approach to matters spiritual I hold no belief about the future.

But I do hope that all the optimism expressed here will eventually be met with positive outcomes that move forward humankind's understanding of the great spirit and all it encompasses....

Spirit must be doing me good, Mac: that's the first time in a long while that I've been accused of optimism! :D

Jim

mac
20-01-2012, 03:39 AM
Spirit must be doing me good, Mac: that's the first time in a long while that I've been accused of optimism! :D

Jim

On a serious note, Jim, I have seen a change in what you say online. If not exactly optimistic, perhaps a little less pessimistic....:wink: And you've gained a broader perspective on a number of issues from what I glean from what you say.

I think that's a good outcome - I hope so.

mac
20-01-2012, 03:47 AM
You're like the Laurel and Hardy movie, Mac: the guy joined the Foreign Legion to forget: and he forgot what it was he came there to forget!

Which means that he succeeded, in my opinion. :D

Jim

Yes a little levity comes into my act from time to time....:wink:

deepsea
20-01-2012, 10:30 AM
Not negative J. Absolutely positive.


G

What? :icon_eek:
Do tell me please,G.
Give me a hint at least.
:D

glenos
20-01-2012, 11:24 AM
J'nie, it's not any one thing. lol

After digging about, asking the right people, I'm getting to hear of physical mediumship (as we would call it) that is 'immense'. People are knocking on the door, starting to tap into power that is being built, not in the higher realms, but more 'earthly' so to speak, more accessable I should say. As all things are from spirit, it all seems to line up, a perfect natural progression, as easy as breathing, linked together, flowing, making perfect sense. Spirit didn't finish their work when SB, WE, Z, and the gang stopped communicating. The work goes on. People want instant gratification, instant information, proof(!) bang, bang, bang. They will get it and in a way that satisfies. Spirit is all. They will not let us down. Impossible.

You can bet the farm on it but we must have patience.


G

deepsea
20-01-2012, 11:51 AM
J'nie, it's not any one thing. lol

After digging about, asking the right people, I'm getting to hear of physical mediumship (as we would call it) that is 'immense'. People are knocking on the door, starting to tap into power that is being built, not in the higher realms, but more 'earthly' so to speak, more accessable I should say. As all things are from spirit, it all seems to line up, a perfect natural progression, as easy as breathing, linked together, flowing, making perfect sense. Spirit didn't finish their work when SB, WE, Z, and the gang stopped communicating. The work goes on. People want instant gratification, instant information, proof(!) bang, bang, bang. They will get it and in a way that satisfies. Spirit is all. They will not let us down. Impossible.

You can bet the farm on it but we must have patience.


G

I like that,G.
Now you have brought the subject up,a while back I was 'receiving' more than I ever have had.
The message I received was 'I will be back' still waiting but have faith in those words.
I get the feeling you are talking about 'under cover' here.
The feeling is mutual.

CuriousSnowflake
20-01-2012, 03:09 PM
The truth as you believe it to be, your 'personal truth'.... It's not a universal one, the only real test of truth.

You have avoided using the term 'Spiritualism' (capital S to denote the religion and philosophy of Modern Spiritualism) for your personal prejudices but in a forum set up for its discussion, and in a thread entitled "Is Spiritualism all it's made out to be" that's somewhat incongruous....

You say spirituality, the experience, is what's important etc. but what you're really saying is that it's what's important to you personally. Again it's not a universal truth, the only truth, it's simply your values you're espousing and they're not Spiritualism.

Despite your belief, Spiritualism (not flexibly defined spirituality) does haves a firm structure although I wouldn't call it a "universal framework". It's a very simple structure fundamentally although it can readily be expanded, should one wish, to gain a deeper, broader understanding of what life - and death - is about.

And in doing that it's not down to having any 'personal truth' because it applies to all and anyone - the acid test, the universality, of 'truth'.

:sigh: I really don't want to derail this thread. I am not a Spiritualist, though I do think that the philosophy has some important ideas in it. I merely saw something in the OP that I resonated with; that serious seekers are outnumbered by the "shiny bauble" crowd by a depressingly large margin. I think this is the case in all things, actually. 80% of people are asleep, 18% of people are self-righteous in their points of view, and only about 2% are really willing to play with life. So I don't think it's necessary for me to agree with your beliefs to note this, nor is this necessary for me to post here. Last time I checked, it was a free country. :wink:

That being said, I will reply briefly to your comments. Personally, I think there is only one universal truth; All Is One, appearing separate. The appearances are not false, BTW, they are merely a point of view, and a fabulously important one. It is these points of view that create all the other truths that people cling to, which are all as important and "universal" as we choose for them to be.

Take Spiritualism for an example. Spiritualism depends greatly upon channeled communications from "higher" spiritual beings, and structures it's morality around the idea of spiritual evolution. These ideas, IMHO, are not wrong, but they do depend upon the points of view created by the appearances of separateness. For evolution to happen, it is necessary to separate the Eternal Now into past, present and future, since one cannot progress without linear Time. For communication from evolved beings to occur, we need both the idea of a distinct soul continuing past physical incarnation and the assumption that these other beings are exactly that; other than us.

So what's the point of all my hair-splitting? Well, you say above...
You say spirituality, the experience, is what's important etc. but what you're really saying is that it's what's important to you personally. Again it's not a universal truth, the only truth, it's simply your values you're espousing and they're not Spiritualism.
...and that's not quite right. What I am saying instead is that -Isms of all kinds begin as the frameworks we create around our experiences. The frameworks we assume are true then become the filters through which we view our experiences, which then reinforce the frameworks, which filter the experiences, and so on until we stop understanding that they are frameworks we have created and start calling them Truth. We then teach them to others as Truth, which cuts out half the filtration work for them, and then we have Dogma. We then have -Isms.

So when you say that Truth is more important than experience, I have to strongly disagree. Experience creates Truth, and Truth is merely a crutch we use when we are (to be cruelly honest) too lazy to look at our bald experiences. And yes, I am as guilty of this laziness as anyone.

CS

PS, this is brief, by my standards. Ask Psychoslice, he knows. :icon_eek::D

Left Behind
20-01-2012, 04:19 PM
On a serious note, Jim, I have seen a change in what you say online. If not exactly optimistic, perhaps a little less pessimistic....:wink: And you've gained a broader perspective on a number of issues from what I glean from what you say.

I think that's a good outcome - I hope so.

I hope you're right, Mac. :smile:

Being laid up for 6+ weeks might have had something to do with it, ironically: I've always been the sort of person who goes through live with a list of things that he has to do because the world somehow depends on me doing them and doing them right. . . only to realize that the world lumbers on in its own way, regardless.

Maybe I'm just less "controlling".

Jim

mac
20-01-2012, 07:34 PM
CuriousSnowflake

sigh: I really don't want to derail this thread. You won't but you did raise issues which needed (as I saw then) dome clarification.... I am not a Spiritualist, though I do think that the philosophy has some important ideas in it. I should hope so! I merely saw something in the OP that I resonated with; that serious seekers are outnumbered by the "shiny bauble" crowd by a depressingly large margin. I think this is the case in all things, actually. 80% of people are asleep, 18% of people are self-righteous in their points of view, and only about 2% are really willing to play with life. So I don't think it's necessary for me to agree with your beliefs to note this, nor is this necessary for me to post here. Last time I checked, it was a free country. Well we see things differently - you're not a Spiritualist - I am. You don't know much about Modern Spiritualism - I do. I don't post in threads where I don't have knowledge.... :wink:

That being said, I will reply briefly to your comments. Personally, I think there is only one universal truth; All Is One, appearing separate. The appearances are not false, BTW, they are merely a point of view, and a fabulously important one. It is these points of view that create all the other truths that people cling to, which are all as important and "universal" as we choose for them to be. That's meaningless - there is no such thing as a personal truth, or point of view that is as universal as we choose. None of that makes any sense....

Take Spiritualism for an example. Spiritualism depends greatly upon channeled communications from "higher" spiritual beings, and structures it's morality around the idea of spiritual evolution. absolute nonsense - now you're demonstrating what I've just said - you don't know about Spiritualism....These ideas, IMHO, are not wrong, but they do depend upon the points of view created by the appearances of separateness. For evolution to happen, it is necessary to separate the Eternal Now into past, present and future, since one cannot progress without linear Time. For communication from evolved beings to occur, we need both the idea of a distinct soul continuing past physical incarnation and the assumption that these other beings are exactly that; other than us. nonsense again

So what's the point of all my hair-splitting? Well, you say above...You're not splitting hairs - you're speaking about something else about which I have no understanding....

...and that's not quite right. What I am saying instead is that -Isms of all kinds begin as the frameworks we create around our experiences. The frameworks we assume are true then become the filters through which we view our experiences, which then reinforce the frameworks, which filter the experiences, and so on until we stop understanding that they are frameworks we have created and start calling them Truth. We then teach them to others as Truth, which cuts out half the filtration work for them, and then we have Dogma. We then have -Isms.

So when you say that Truth is more important than experience, I have to strongly disagree. Experience creates Truth, and Truth is merely a crutch we use when we are (to be cruelly honest) too lazy to look at our bald experiences. what...????? And yes, I am as guilty of this laziness as anyone.

CS

PS, this is brief, by my standards. I'm not concerned about how brief you've been - you can be as detailed as you like and I'll answer seriatim...Ask Psychoslice, he knows. Me and my buddy psycho know one another. :D:wink::hug3: No need for me to ask anything....

Him and me both know he knows little about Spiritualism....And I'm talking about Spiritualism, religion and philosophy, not spirituality to do with issue of being spiritual.....

You - and all others - can, and will, post whatever you wish in whatever forums you wish. It's your entitlement which I totally respect. But this forum is about Spiritualism and those who know about Spiritualism will see why you don't know. The rest may not see but perhaps won't care.

CuriousSnowflake
21-01-2012, 03:38 PM
Mac-

1) I'd appreciate it if you dropped the condescending attitude. All of my replies to you have been perfectly cordial, and should hope you'd show me the same courtesy. Calling something "nonsense" not only discourages discussion (the point of a forum, after all) but indicates a closed mind. Never a good thing.

2) After your previous reply, I Wiki-ed "modern Spiritualism" to see if I was missing something. My replies were in the context of the info I found there. If my replies were incorrect compared to your beliefs, I apologize, but you can hardly hold it against me if you use words outside of their given definition, based upon the world's most complete encyclopedia. So please, (and I am being completely sincere here) tell me how you define "modern Spiritualism", and how that differs from the way Wiki does.

3) Since you seem to think they exist, give me an example of what you believe to be a universal truth. Other than All Is One, I cannot think of a single one. Everything else is trends, dogmas, and assumptions based upon limited data.

I await your replies with interest.

CS

mac
21-01-2012, 04:16 PM
CuriousSnowflake


1) I'd appreciate it if you dropped the condescending attitude. All of my replies to you have been perfectly cordial, and should hope you'd show me the same courtesy. Calling something "nonsense" not only discourages discussion (the point of a forum, after all) but indicates a closed mind. Never a good thing. I'm sorry that you're upset but what I wrote I meant. I was speaking purely in the context of what had you'd contributed. How does it discourage discussion - had someone said I'd written nonsense I'd ask why and on what basis. As for a closed mind I'll do that very thing - why does it indicate a closed mind? On other issues I wrote in more detail referencing each of my contributions to the text concerned..... It's not condescending to disagree but I would expect others to explain why they feel I'm wrong.

2) After your previous reply, I Wiki-ed "modern Spiritualism" to see if I was missing something. My replies were in the context of the info I found there. If my replies were incorrect compared to your beliefs, I apologize, but you can hardly hold it against me if you use words outside of their given definition, based upon the world's most complete encyclopedia. So please, (and I am being completely sincere here) tell me how you define "modern Spiritualism", and how that differs from the way Wiki does.If you're quoting other sources you should say so. I hold nothing against you and if what you write isn't in line with what's taught in Spiritualism I'll say so. I don't hold beliefs and nothing will upset me except for personal character attacks. Anyone can challenge anything I say and it's what I expect.... Your view of Wikipedia, incidentally, isn't shared by all - Wiki reflects the views of individuals and isn't moderated in the way other encyclopedias are. I know about Spiritualism and don't have to Wiki or Google for information - sorry if that sound elitist but I only write about what I know and understand unless I'm asking questions...I don't write about other subjects where my understanding isn't relevant, hence you won't find me often in many other 'spiritually-based' forums.

3) Since you seem to think they exist, give me an example of what you believe to be a universal truth. Other than All Is One, I cannot think of a single one. Everything else is trends, dogmas, and assumptions based upon limited data. One universal truth? How about cause-and-effect? No effect without there being its cause.....

Truth has to be universal, has to apply in all situations, for anyone. You can have personal belief, you can have individual understanding of all or any matters but there's no such thing as personal truth. The truth is the truth is the truth - it's immutable. One may have one's own grasp of it, an incomplete grasp of it (in just about all cases I'd guess) and both of them will be part of 'the truth'. Or one can have an altogether distorted, inaccurate, personal grasp which one believes to be the truth....

If that's what folk mean as 'their truth' then so be it on that definition. I'll say only that it doesn''t work for me.....

I await your replies with interest. I hope I've answered your points?

CuriousSnowflake
22-01-2012, 02:32 PM
I'm sorry that you're upset but what I wrote I meant. I was speaking purely in the context of what had you'd contributed. How does it discourage discussion - had someone said I'd written nonsense I'd ask why and on what basis. As for a closed mind I'll do that very thing - why does it indicate a closed mind? On other issues I wrote in more detail referencing each of my contributions to the text concerned..... It's not condescending to disagree but I would expect others to explain why they feel I'm wrong.

LOL, first, I'm the father of 3 and I work retail; I don't get upset that easily. You didn't offend me, I was more saddened than anything else. Second, there's a world of difference between disagreeing or not understanding and thinking something is nonsense. The former imply either a difference of opinion or a lack of clarity on one side or the other, the latter implies my ideas are flawed or incoherent. We haven't discussed the matter enough for you to draw either conclusion, which implies to me you either have no desire to hear my point of view or you are so secure in your ideas you feel no need to expose yourself to anything new. Neither of these invite further discussion.

So I would love to discuss things further, but that would require a bit more info from you. Assuming "nonsense" really means "I don't understand", what ideas would you like me to clarify?

If you're quoting other sources you should say so. I hold nothing against you and if what you write isn't in line with what's taught in Spiritualism I'll say so. I don't hold beliefs and nothing will upset me except for personal character attacks. Anyone can challenge anything I say and it's what I expect.... Your view of Wikipedia, incidentally, isn't shared by all - Wiki reflects the views of individuals and isn't moderated in the way other encyclopedias are. I know about Spiritualism and don't have to Wiki or Google for information - sorry if that sound elitist but I only write about what I know and understand unless I'm asking questions...I don't write about other subjects where my understanding isn't relevant, hence you won't find me often in many other 'spiritually-based' forums.

'Kay, but you didn't answer my question. How do you define "Modern Spiritualism"? And I said Wiki was the "most complete", not "most accurate". I am well aware of it's flaws, but it's a good place to start.

One universal truth? How about cause-and-effect? No effect without there being its cause.....

Ahh, here's some meat and potatoes! ::cracks knuckles::

"Universal" means something that is true absolutely everywhere, and cause and effect don't quite meet that criteria. They do in our current situation, meaning as incarnations existing distinctly in physicality, but cause and effect require Time, and Time is not universal. Einstein showed that Time is actually a function of physical reality, the time/space continuum, and cannot exist without it. Spirit is, by definition, non-physical, which means cause and effect do not and cannot apply beyond physical incarnation. So, a truth, and an important one, but not a universal one.

Next?

Truth has to be universal, has to apply in all situations, for anyone. You can have personal belief, you can have individual understanding of all or any matters but there's no such thing as personal truth. The truth is the truth is the truth - it's immutable. One may have one's own grasp of it, an incomplete grasp of it (in just about all cases I'd guess) and both of them will be part of 'the truth'. Or one can have an altogether distorted, inaccurate, personal grasp which one believes to be the truth....

If that's what folk mean as 'their truth' then so be it on that definition. I'll say only that it doesn''t work for me.....

For a Christian, the "truth" is that we have one life to live, at the end of which we are judged. For a Hindu, the "truth" is that we have many lives, until we bring ourselves into moral balance. These believers may not agree with each other, and we may not agree with them, but that doesn't make their truths any less true for them, nor ours for us. All that really exists is what "works for me". Everything else is justifications.

CS

mac
22-01-2012, 04:29 PM
CS - I'm starting a new posting as formatting is getting too complex. :smile: Points are now out of sequence but please bear with me....

You asked my definition of Modern Spiritualism compared with Wiki. I don't have a personal definition but I did put together a simple explanation recently in this forum - it's gonna time for either thee or me to look back at the threads but it's there as the very first posting in one I started towards the end of last year. If you'd like to read it, have a flick through the postings I've started recently - there aren't many.

Other Spiritualists commented that it worked for them. (or words to that effect) On a personal level it matters nought to me what Wiki defines - I know what Spiritualism is as I've lived it for the past 28 years - long enough for me to have confidence in what I write about it. But may I make another point?

Look at the thread title - change Spiritualism for Roman Catholicism, Buddhism, Christianity or whatever. If you were an adherent to one of these faiths/religions, would you listen to me, a dyed-in-the-wool Modern Spiritualist telling you what happens in each of your religions, or using Wiki as your authority? I suspect not and that's my position with Spiritualism. Ask anything you like about this subject but don't tell me what it is. I'm already well aware!

Now I gave a very simple example of cause and effect as a universal law - no effect without there being a cause. You went on to a situation which is outwith of Spiritualism - the forum title. Within Spiritualism cause and effect is clearly understood. You're standing outside Spiritualism and the points you raise may be of interest elsewhere but for me at least they have no relevance to what I said.

As for truth, again you're personalising it when you speak of Christian this or Hindu that. No matter who speaks it, the truth is simply the truth - but I don't accept 'personal truth'.

I'd agree - if that's your premise - that no single group, faith, movement, religion has any total grasp of the truth. Certainly I'm saying that about Modern Spiritualism - neither Spiritualism nor Spiritualists know all there is to know of 'the truth'. But neither do Spiritualists (or does Spiritualism) have any personal, or personalised truth.

We see, we understand, as much of it as we are privileged to see or understand. And its a highly incomplete picture.....

Schurchy
22-01-2012, 10:35 PM
Of course we allllll have questions but then to think-why cross religion with science-leave them where they ought to be-for it is not our time to figure it out. just like channeled messages from spirits- it is for when they think we are ready. So when we are ready, we wil know-that might even be 1 second away from what we find out what really happens ;)

CuriousSnowflake
23-01-2012, 12:22 AM
Now I gave a very simple example of cause and effect as a universal law - no effect without there being a cause. You went on to a situation which is outwith of Spiritualism - the forum title. Within Spiritualism cause and effect is clearly understood. You're standing outside Spiritualism and the points you raise may be of interest elsewhere but for me at least they have no relevance to what I said.

If this is really how you see things, that ideas which are at odds with or outside of you philosophy aren't worth discussing, then I don't see any point in continuing. Have a blessed life.

CS

mac
23-01-2012, 03:08 AM
If this is really how you see things, that ideas which are at odds with or outside of you philosophy aren't worth discussing, then I don't see any point in continuing. Have a blessed life.

CS

agreed - you too :hug3:

Left Behind
23-01-2012, 04:39 AM
Why am I suddenly thinking of Tiny Tim? :D

Jim

mac
23-01-2012, 07:53 AM
If this is really how you see things, that ideas which are at odds with or outside of your philosophy aren't worth discussing, then I don't see any point in continuing. Have a blessed life.

CS

Thinking on, the ideas you put forward weren't at odds or outside of my philosophy. Yours were simply irrelevant to Spiritualist philosophy and as this is the Spiritualism forum why should I feel any need to discuss them? You're the one who's been wanting to challenge what I wrote and when I replied to the points you'd made you called me condescending...

You didn't come asking questions even though you don't know anything much about this subject. If I'd posted my ideas, telling you what your own faith/religion/persuasion is about, or where it didn't meet with my personal views, I'd expect to have it pointed out where I was wrong. I don't post in such a way - if I don't have detailed understanding or knowledge I ask those who do.

If you'd like to pick up about Spiritualism itself another time and ask what it has to say I'll be happy to help. :hug2:

mac
23-01-2012, 07:56 AM
Spiritualism is an officially registered, legally recognised, religion in a number of countries. It's also been described as a philosophy and a science.

Adherents of its teachings and guidance will often refer to themselves as Spiritualists. Some will be regular members of a church or centre. Others will rarely, or never, be seen at one.

Spiritualism (or Modern Spiritualism to signify its most-recent appearance) asks no belief or faith. It teaches that we all survive physical death into continuing life elsewhere. Abundant evidence of that has been provided through mediumship for over a century.

A medium is someone who facilitates communication between those alive here in this dimension and others who are still alive but in the 'spirit' dimensions. Where evidence of identity is obtained by a medium - as for example from a deceased relative or friend - it may be termed evidential mediumship.

Other mediums have facilitated communications from spiritually-evolved teachers and guides. Their guidance has provided a framework of understanding about what happens after death. Teachings have been widely recorded in books and some were recorded electronically at the time they were given.

Left Behind
23-01-2012, 07:02 PM
Great definition and explanation, Mac. I hope the Admins will put that up as a Sticky.

Yes, there are a lot of people equating spiritualITY with SpiritualISM: and that's leading to arguments: in most cases, unintended ones, I'm sure. :icon_frown:

Jim

mac
23-01-2012, 07:39 PM
Great definition and explanation, Mac. I hope the Admins will put that up as a Sticky.

Yes, there are a lot of people equating spiritualITY with SpiritualISM: and that's leading to arguments: in most cases, unintended ones, I'm sure. :icon_frown:

Jim
thanks, Jim - I posted it for CuriousSnowflake especially, along with anyone else who's been following the thread.

I've given up on seeing it a 'sticky' for easy reference - too many jealous individuals, perhaps, who saw it as a concession for one member. I had suggested it should be unattributed, nothing mentioning me, but that didn't persuade the 'powers that be'.

Hey, ho onward and upward - more ways of skinning a cat than one, eh? :wink:

mac
23-01-2012, 08:30 PM
Of course we allllll have questions but then to think-why cross religion with science-leave them where they ought to be-for it is not our time to figure it out. just like channeled messages from spirits- it is for when they think we are ready. So when we are ready, we wil know-that might even be 1 second away from what we find out what really happens ;)
You lost me with all this, buddy.....:icon_frown: Shouldn't you have been writing about the topic?

glenos
23-01-2012, 08:38 PM
I don't know why you are bothering Keith. Some folk are set on their path. There's nothing we can do to change that. You've been 'at it' for 28 yrs, me 40. I aint no mug and you certainly aint either. We have most of the facts, they haven't. Lets just leave it at that eh mate ...
Teflon swan stylee. F-L-O-W ... dig?

Big wings enfolding you bud... Ya know it.

Got some music for you ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TIiOwZoP1Cw&feature=player_detailpage (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.youtube.com%2525 2Fwatch%25253Fv%25253DTIiOwZoP1Cw%252526amp%25253B feature%25253Dplayer_detailpage)

Glen.

Schurchy
24-01-2012, 02:18 AM
Sorry i was trying to answer a question i thought was asked haha *facepalm

mac
24-01-2012, 02:22 AM
Sorry i was trying to answer a question i thought was asked haha *facepalm

ha ha You maybe looked at some other question....