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Chrode
09-12-2011, 06:45 AM
I have studying Wicca alot now and many "wiccans" have told me that they was no salvation but it is true?

Gardner saying in the old laws
"And if any break these laws, even under torture, The Curse of the Goddess shall be upon them, so they never reborn on earth, And may they remain where they belong, in the Hell of the Christians."

I think that the reward for follow and worship the goddess and the god is that we reborn. If not we will not be reborn and our soul with have no peace in the eternal.

And other things is that in wiccan teology all gods are the god and all goddesses are the goddess.

"Listen to the words of the Great Mother;
she who of old was also called among men
Artemis, Astarte, Athene, Dione, Melusine,
Aphrodite, Cerridwen, Cybele, Arianrhod,
Isis, Dana, Bride
and by many other names: "

Nemesis punished those who broked the devine laws. We se the devine laws in the charge of the goddess and god.

It seems that the Goddess are loving but she is also justice.

Do i misunderstand something here?

Occultist
09-12-2011, 07:22 AM
Honestly no only thing your missing is the fact that some people will claim Wicca but have no idea who Gardner is or his teachings or read anything from him,.


Wicca is not Witchcraft!
By-Grayraven
Let me first start off with this: Wiccans may practice magic as part of their religion and may call that magic witchcraft. This is not to say, however, that we have an exclusive to that name. Witchcraft has been practiced in many forms all over the globe for millenia. Wicca was founded in the 1950s thus we're really the newcomers.
It is frustrating that some writers, even some with a great deal of credibility and some with lesser credibility seem to use Wiccan and Witch interchangeably. Gerald Gardner didn't title his book "Wicca Today" rather he titled it "Witchcraft Today" and likewise Doreen Valiente published "Witchcraft for Tomorrow."
I think it is important, however, to separate magical practice from religious belief. Wicca is a religion whereas witchcraft is a practice. One does not, however, have to believe in the tenants of Wicca to practice witchcraft. One may be atheistic and still practice witchcraft.
To put it in different terms it would be like Catholics calling themselves "Communionists" because they partake of communion. (which is, in a manner of speaking, magic in itself [transubstantiation]).
Still, however, some people seem to like to call themselves Witches rather than Wiccan and consider their religion to be Witchcraft. To each their own.
To some degree, I think, this is understandable. Witch is a more provoking term than Wiccan. When I started on this path I liked the term Witch because of that. In examining my motives, however, I realized that I was using this term simply to be confrontational.
The term witch is based on the old english word witch but its origins are much older and etymology is difficult given the sparse written record of pre-Christian Europe.
Some modern pagans, or Neo-Pagans, use the word to describe themselves as well. These men and women may not identify at all with being Wiccan and yet some Wiccans seem to think they have some sort of trademark on the word. We do not.
Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans who practice magic should understand the concept and value of using ones words precisely. When using an incorrect term in place of a correct one both terms become diluted; They lose their power.
There is another reason, in my opinion, that we should not use witch in place of Wiccan. This reasoning is socio-political. There is tons of historical baggage behind the term witch. It is, in some minds, paritcularly conservatives, synonymous with evil and satanism. In a proper world this prejudice would not exist. We do not, however, live in a perfect world and while I agree that prejudices should be eliminated and replaced by facts this is a slow process and while this process is happening these same people who think ill of us "witches" will project their misinformed beliefs to us and continue to call us devil worshipers and worse!
Socio-political concerns notwithstanding, I believe that we should be precise in our self identification. Claim your religion for what it is and, if you're like a lot of "witches" I have met, stop trying to shock and rebel and be the Wiccan you have worked and studied so hard to be.
http://www.grayraven.org
has alot of information clears up alot of confusion even if you are not Wiccan or a Witch I recommend going and reading through the site and it seperates alot of confusion about the Terms Witch and Wiccan.
These 2 entities or beliefs is not interchangeable although you can be a Wiccan who Practises the Craft and the darkened path.
They are not the same the problem is "My personal opinion" TV shows like Charmed and Secret circle or movies like The Craft created a fantasy world an escape and power along with beauty.
Actress like Fairuza Balk always openly explaines that she is a Wiccan who Practises the Craft. I have met women who claim to be Witch and they see me cast my circle and they freak out and head for the door. Some say solitary and I introduced her to a Coven and she freaked and said These people are in a Coven I go yeah there my friends she "replyed in fear" Covens seem evil. I never seen her again.
so if you know who Gerald Gardner is you might be a Wiccan
if you cast a Circle understand what a Poppet is and have practised magic weaving and Hex's and other spells and chanting you might be a Witch.
Either way I consider you my family.

Chrode
09-12-2011, 07:52 AM
Honestly no only thing your missing is the fact that some people will claim Wicca but have no idea who Gardner is or his teachings or read anything from him,.


Wicca is not Witchcraft!
By-Grayraven
Let me first start off with this: Wiccans may practice magic as part of their religion and may call that magic witchcraft. This is not to say, however, that we have an exclusive to that name. Witchcraft has been practiced in many forms all over the globe for millenia. Wicca was founded in the 1950s thus we're really the newcomers.
It is frustrating that some writers, even some with a great deal of credibility and some with lesser credibility seem to use Wiccan and Witch interchangeably. Gerald Gardner didn't title his book "Wicca Today" rather he titled it "Witchcraft Today" and likewise Doreen Valiente published "Witchcraft for Tomorrow."
I think it is important, however, to separate magical practice from religious belief. Wicca is a religion whereas witchcraft is a practice. One does not, however, have to believe in the tenants of Wicca to practice witchcraft. One may be atheistic and still practice witchcraft.
To put it in different terms it would be like Catholics calling themselves "Communionists" because they partake of communion. (which is, in a manner of speaking, magic in itself [transubstantiation]).
Still, however, some people seem to like to call themselves Witches rather than Wiccan and consider their religion to be Witchcraft. To each their own.
To some degree, I think, this is understandable. Witch is a more provoking term than Wiccan. When I started on this path I liked the term Witch because of that. In examining my motives, however, I realized that I was using this term simply to be confrontational.
The term witch is based on the old english word witch but its origins are much older and etymology is difficult given the sparse written record of pre-Christian Europe.
Some modern pagans, or Neo-Pagans, use the word to describe themselves as well. These men and women may not identify at all with being Wiccan and yet some Wiccans seem to think they have some sort of trademark on the word. We do not.
Wiccans and other Neo-Pagans who practice magic should understand the concept and value of using ones words precisely. When using an incorrect term in place of a correct one both terms become diluted; They lose their power.
There is another reason, in my opinion, that we should not use witch in place of Wiccan. This reasoning is socio-political. There is tons of historical baggage behind the term witch. It is, in some minds, paritcularly conservatives, synonymous with evil and satanism. In a proper world this prejudice would not exist. We do not, however, live in a perfect world and while I agree that prejudices should be eliminated and replaced by facts this is a slow process and while this process is happening these same people who think ill of us "witches" will project their misinformed beliefs to us and continue to call us devil worshipers and worse!
Socio-political concerns notwithstanding, I believe that we should be precise in our self identification. Claim your religion for what it is and, if you're like a lot of "witches" I have met, stop trying to shock and rebel and be the Wiccan you have worked and studied so hard to be.
http://www.grayraven.org
has alot of information clears up alot of confusion even if you are not Wiccan or a Witch I recommend going and reading through the site and it seperates alot of confusion about the Terms Witch and Wiccan.
These 2 entities or beliefs is not interchangeable although you can be a Wiccan who Practises the Craft and the darkened path.
They are not the same the problem is "My personal opinion" TV shows like Charmed and Secret circle or movies like The Craft created a fantasy world an escape and power along with beauty.
Actress like Fairuza Balk always openly explaines that she is a Wiccan who Practises the Craft. I have met women who claim to be Witch and they see me cast my circle and they freak out and head for the door. Some say solitary and I introduced her to a Coven and she freaked and said These people are in a Coven I go yeah there my friends she "replyed in fear" Covens seem evil. I never seen her again.
so if you know who Gerald Gardner is you might be a Wiccan
if you cast a Circle understand what a Poppet is and have practised magic weaving and Hex's and other spells and chanting you might be a Witch.
Either way I consider you my family.

What have that to do with my post?

LadyMoondancer
09-12-2011, 12:39 PM
your answers are in your guru's book.
why are you questioning us if YOU already know the answers as put forth by Gardner?

Occultist
09-12-2011, 05:12 PM
What have that to do with my post?
Because some Wiccan's might not even know that there is a type of punishment in Wicca because they dont know the origins of there own belief.

Chrode
09-12-2011, 07:11 PM
Because some Wiccan's might not even know that there is a type of punishment in Wicca because they dont know the origins of there own belief.

I agree like there are christians who don't have read the bible.

Occultist
09-12-2011, 08:21 PM
I know my Ex's family entire family are radical bible thumpers the type that passed out and speaks in tongues and dances and stuff and they havent read the bible cover to cover and I have tied there tongues in knots when they tryed to use there religion towards me in hate.

Quintessence
10-12-2011, 12:39 AM
The concept of "salvation" doesn't exist in Paganism (and Neopaganism) in general, at least with how the term is used within Christianity. Their concept of salvation is tied to the concept of original sin, which doesn't exist in all Abrahamic faiths, much less in Pagan religions (including Wicca). This more or less makes asking about salvation a non-applicable theological concept to Pagan religions.

I'd also hazard to say the vast majority of Wiccans are not Gardenerian (or of a similar tradition) and do not adhere to BTW laws.

Occultist
10-12-2011, 03:22 AM
Wiccan does mean Gardenerian. Are you saying your a Witch and not a Wiccan?

Animus27
10-12-2011, 03:38 AM
The concept of "salvation" doesn't exist in Paganism (and Neopaganism) in general, at least with how the term is used within Christianity. Their concept of salvation is tied to the concept of original sin, which doesn't exist in all Abrahamic faiths, much less in Pagan religions (including Wicca). This more or less makes asking about salvation a non-applicable theological concept to Pagan religions.

One must define 'salvation'. If one is speaking in the sense of an Original Sin and eternal Hell, then no, that is not really present in any pre-Christian religions, as a hand and hand concept, that is the idea eternal punishment/annihilation, however, does exist in quite a few cultures. And some undercurrents of soteriology are very much present in Gręco-Roman Mystery cults. Orphism and the Eleusinian Mysteries come to mind. Mostly due to the fact that the Underworld was conceived of as a very gloomy and unpleasant place, where people wandered around upon the ash fields of Asphodel without speech or memory. The sentiment towards the Homeric afterlife is encapsulated in Achilles' response to Odysseus' remark that Achilles lords over the dead in his glory:

'No winning words about death to me, shining Odysseus!
By god, I'd rather slave on earth for another man---
some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive---
than rule down here over all the breathless dead.' [translated by Robert Fagles].

Chrode
11-12-2011, 02:05 AM
One must define 'salvation'. If one is speaking in the sense of an Original Sin and eternal Hell, then no, that is not really present in any pre-Christian religions, as a hand and hand concept, that is the idea eternal punishment/annihilation, however, does exist in quite a few cultures. And some undercurrents of soteriology are very much present in Gręco-Roman Mystery cults. Orphism and the Eleusinian Mysteries come to mind. Mostly due to the fact that the Underworld was conceived of as a very gloomy and unpleasant place, where people wandered around upon the ash fields of Asphodel without speech or memory. The sentiment towards the Homeric afterlife is encapsulated in Achilles' response to Odysseus' remark that Achilles lords over the dead in his glory:

'No winning words about death to me, shining Odysseus!
By god, I'd rather slave on earth for another man---
some dirt-poor tenant farmer who scrapes to keep alive---
than rule down here over all the breathless dead.' [translated by Robert Fagles].

I agree with you that we are not born with sin but i pagan believes there is a other world where the souls goes to and those who have not worship the devine or commit hybris will not be reborn. I believe it is that Wicca teach. Wicca is "new" religion based on the ancient folkepractice and beliefs.

norseman
11-12-2011, 09:55 AM
Here is a good reference source to look at

http://www.sacred-texts.com/pag/index.htm

As to Wiccan beliefs being based on ancient faiths and practices, I think that is open to a certain amount of interpretation. It does seem more an amalgam of various influences.

LadyMoondancer
11-12-2011, 02:00 PM
I agree with you that we are not born with sin but i pagan believes there is a other world where the souls goes to and those who have not worship the devine or commit hybris will not be reborn. I believe it is that Wicca teach. Wicca is "new" religion based on the ancient folkepractice and beliefs.


it is called Summerland. and I thought you said Gardner was given the Charge and initiated and given the new religion by the goddess. why do you keep changing everything you say?

Neville
11-12-2011, 03:07 PM
I find this peculiar.

"And if any break these laws, even under torture, The Curse of the Goddess shall be upon them, so they never reborn on earth, And may they remain where they belong, in the Hell of the Christians."

It is admitting that in the absence of a name for the concept of purgatory, one should borrow the name that Christians call it... Not to worry though, its a big world full of many ideas :confused: :smile:

Its an excellent reminder that we can and should find the path that is right for us and how it's OK to cherry pick different religious concepts as they resonate with us personally from the entire pantheon available to us.

I have never been able to adhere entirely to one religion, preferring to adopt the Path of the Neville, evolving and mutating as it progresses with each new developmental stage.

N.B. I really must look up Christian Wicca..that sounds a fascinating concept to me . Imagine that , the persecutors and the persecuted reconciled in one path.

As I said, its a big world full of many ideas :smile:

Chrode
11-12-2011, 06:57 PM
it is called Summerland. and I thought you said Gardner was given the Charge and initiated and given the new religion by the goddess. why do you keep changing everything you say?

It's calls the otherworld and comes from the ancient religions like greek myhology forexample. I don't change anything what i'm saying..

Chrode
11-12-2011, 07:02 PM
I find this peculiar.


It is admitting that in the absence of a name for the concept of purgatory, one should borrow the name that Christians call it... Not to worry though, its a big world full of many ideas :confused: :smile:

Its an excellent reminder that we can and should find the path that is right for us and how it's OK to cherry pick different religious concepts as they resonate with us personally from the entire pantheon available to us.

I have never been able to adhere entirely to one religion, preferring to adopt the Path of the Neville, evolving and mutating as it progresses with each new developmental stage.

N.B. I really must look up Christian Wicca..that sounds a fascinating concept to me . Imagine that , the persecutors and the persecuted reconciled in one path.

As I said, its a big world full of many ideas :smile:

There are no such thing as "Christian Wicca". To be wiccan and a christan on the same time is impossible. The wiccan theology and christian Theology don't harmonize with each other.

Neville
11-12-2011, 07:24 PM
There are no such thing as "Christian Wicca". To be wiccan and a christan on the same time is impossible. The wiccan theology and christian Theology don't harmonize with each other.


So am I to assume that this link is some kind of a misleading concept ?

http://www.godisnowhereonline.info/missy/writings/beliefs.html

Occultist
11-12-2011, 07:38 PM
dont forget this one either.http://www.christianwicca.org/

iolite
11-12-2011, 08:31 PM
Its an excellent reminder that we can and should find the path that is right for us and how it's OK to cherry pick different religious concepts as they resonate with us personally from the entire pantheon available to us.

I LOVE cherries! :D I'm a cherry picker too!!

norseman
11-12-2011, 08:54 PM
Sorry all, but I am going with Chrode on this one. Christian Wicca is an oxymoron with all the trappings of a fundamental cult !

Lostgirl
11-12-2011, 09:00 PM
How can Wicca be Christian?! Im sorry that really did make me chuckle!

Chrode
11-12-2011, 09:27 PM
So am I to assume that this link is some kind of a misleading concept ?

http://www.godisnowhereonline.info/missy/writings/beliefs.html

Wicca don't teach about heaven. "Heaven" is here on earth. Those who belief and follow the Lord and Lady will be reborn. Those who not will be forever in the otherworld with discomfort (The curse of the Goddess). The death is negative in Wicca and positive in Christianity. There is the different.

Occultist
11-12-2011, 09:58 PM
Sorry all, but I am going with Chrode on this one. Christian Wicca is an oxymoron with all the trappings of a fundamental cult !
True but your forgetting not many people who claim to be Wiccan are in fact wiccan at all LOL. some of them dont even know who Gerald Gardner is.
so if I am getting misinformation on something I could combine it with just about anything.

Neville
11-12-2011, 11:18 PM
Sorry all, but I am going with Chrode on this one. Christian Wicca is an oxymoron with all the trappings of a fundamental cult !
Yet, exist it does, irrespective of anyone's opinion of what it is.

But it don't stop there. Wicca is like a bag of assorted delicacies, there are lots to choose from.

So when and if one chooses to espouse the one true wicca...well sorry and all that, there ain't no such thing in my experience:smile:

I should go...I clumsily careered through wicca on my way to Paganism anyway. And there are a fair few varieties of paganism too. I am of the bog standard simple variety.

Quintessence
12-12-2011, 12:37 AM
To be fair, depending on which Wicca and which Christianity we're talking about, they are variously completely incompatible or easily create a syncretic religious practice. Christian Wiccans do, though, exist; as Neville said this is true regardless of whether or not outsiders choose to believe in them or not. Religious syncretism seems to make many in my culture uncomfortable, and this variety in particular people seem to have trouble wrapping their heads around. >_<

norseman
12-12-2011, 08:42 AM
I did notice that both sites quoted are American and one actually stated that their christian wicca took inspiration from "American Wicca" [?]
So, I suppose this is an example of the wide difference between UK and US.

Occultist
12-12-2011, 06:16 PM
Norseman I have met people who claim Wicca in the US and havent even heard of Gerald Gardner. I think the US is hurt so bad in a way imo many are spiritually wounded and they need a little magick in there life and they watch TV shows like Charmed and Secret Circle and movies like The Craft and they want so bad to feel special and "Saved" in a way that they self proclaim that they are <insert belief>. Then when asked or confronted with it they still have the fears of there heritage Christianity or some form of it.
So they get stuck like a Cork in a bottle.
I think its the romance of the way the Pagans are shown by media here in US.
I have spoken to countless people who proclaim there a Witch and never has casted a circle or did any kind of weaving or knows nothing of the craft itself.
It is alot different in the US unless you come here and investigate it yourself and interview people its really hard to discribe.
So in a way yes there is a huge diff between American Wicca and or Witchcraft and UK.

norseman
12-12-2011, 06:41 PM
In one sense, "American Wicca" is a drum I have been banging for some time. I have had furious arguments [ not in SF ! ] with American High Priests of wiccan covens over their claims to be Traditional British Wiccan - something that actually has never existed. BTW = British Traditional Witchcraft. The defense was that "Canadian bacon was a type, not essentially made in Canada". I argued then that America should have it's unique brand of wicca, based in American culture not some imagined British lineage.
Culture ! - a hypothetical but vastly important, determining what and how things are.
Now I live in a Bronze Age place and celebrate festivals, such as Beltane, at a henge built in 3500 BC where my ancestors held their festivals. I do meditations in the ruins of a Bronze Age settlement high up on the moors.
That makes me what I am. That is culture ! :smile:

Occultist
13-12-2011, 06:09 AM
Well said Norseman. My family are as you know from ayrshire and taught me the ways of old even how to make the best clootie dumpling ever!
My culture is vast and strong my family is beautiful and strong and bold.
The Scot's have been through alot I take pride in my family there freedoms and the ways of cunning.
Bless you Norse and your own and happy holidays.

norseman
13-12-2011, 08:13 AM
:D We manned the wall to keep your lot out :D.

Actually, at one time, we [The Northumbrians] held most of the Scottish Lowlands and, at another another time, the Scots held half of Northumbria. Only sorted out when James [?] became King of England and Scotland. Fly in the ointment were the Border Reivers [Anglo-Saxon bandits on both sides of the border]. Funny old place the Border Country :D Betcha didn't know the Northumbrians played bagpipes and had their own tartan ! Match your clooty dumpling and raise you a Black Pudding :D
Vardmadr Vinr !

Occultist
13-12-2011, 05:33 PM
:D We manned the wall to keep your lot out :D.

Actually, at one time, we [The Northumbrians] held most of the Scottish Lowlands and, at another another time, the Scots held half of Northumbria. Only sorted out when James [?] became King of England and Scotland. Fly in the ointment were the Border Reivers [Anglo-Saxon bandits on both sides of the border]. Funny old place the Border Country :D Betcha didn't know the Northumbrians played bagpipes and had their own tartan ! Match your clooty dumpling and raise you a Black Pudding :D
Vardmadr Vinr !
LOL I get the biggest kick out of you. and your wisdom is very special.:smile:

norseman
13-12-2011, 06:36 PM
:D Here, a christmas present for when TV gets too much to bear :smile:

http://www.englandsnortheast.co.uk/