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Honza
06-12-2011, 07:31 AM
In a roundabout way Jesus Christ claimed himself to be God just as much as Satan did. Perhaps they are the same person?

What is the difference between Christ calling himself God and Satan calling himself God?

Are they not both comitting blasphemy?

psychoslice
06-12-2011, 09:48 AM
The difference is that Christ pointed to who we truly are, where Satan pointed to who we think we are, big difference.

Honza
06-12-2011, 10:33 AM
I'm getting all muddled up.

Christ never actually did say "I Am The Lord". He said "I Am The Son Of The Lord" there is a difference......

He also implied that the Son is an INTEGRAL part of the Lord. So in a sense he said he is EQUAL in God.

psychoslice
06-12-2011, 10:46 AM
I'm getting all muddled up.

Christ never actually did say "I Am The Lord". He said "I Am The Son Of The Lord" there is a difference......

He also implied that the Son is an INTEGRAL part of the Lord. So in a sense he said he is EQUAL in God.
Yes and you are also equal to God, there is only God, its just the mind that thinks its outside of God.

Honza
06-12-2011, 10:47 AM
Yes and you are also equal to God, there is only God, its just the mind that thinks its outside of God.

Yes, that figures.

RabbiO
06-12-2011, 10:51 AM
I'm getting all muddled up.

Christ never actually did say "I Am The Lord". He said "I Am The Son Of The Lord" there is a difference......

He also implied that the Son is an INTEGRAL part of the Lord. So in a sense he said he is EQUAL in God.

Honza -

I know you love us, but this topic on the Judaism sub-forum??

Anyhow, I'd be curious to have some cites to the verses you allude to where Jesus calls himself "Son of the Lord."

B'shalom,

Peter

Honza
06-12-2011, 11:00 AM
Honza -

I know you love us, but this topic on the Judaism sub-forum??

Anyhow, I'd be curious to have some cites to the verses you allude to where Jesus calls himself "Son of the Lord."

B'shalom,

Peter

Well I put it in this sub forum because I was suggesting Jesus was a fraud who misguided the Jews and everyone else.....

That was my premise. However I'm getting more and more confused by the issue the more I write on it.

Check the verses in John 5:18 and onward...... He says clearly what he is there.

Honza
06-12-2011, 11:06 AM
RabbiO: try and see this sub-forum as an integrated part of the whole SF. It is inevitable that threads and posts will overlap as they discuss various parts of spirituality and what they relate to.

This whole FORUM is a spiritual place - not a religious place. I'm sure there are Judaic RELIGION forums. But SF is different because IT BREAKS THE DIVIDING LINES BETWEEN RELIGIONS DOWN. Not builds them up.

You need to let this Judaic Sub Forum BREATH!

slave of Allaah
06-12-2011, 11:51 AM
...

On the Day when All‚h will gather the Messengers together and say to them: "What was the response you received? They will say: "We have no knowledge, verily, only You are the All¨Knower of all that is hidden (or unseen)." (109)

(Remember) when All‚h will say (on the Day of Resurrection). "O Jesus, son of Mary! Remember My Favour to you and to your mother when I supported you with the holy spirit so that you spoke to the people in the cradle and in maturity; and when I taught you writing, wisdom, the Torah and the Injeel (Gospel); and when you made out of the clay, a figure like that of a bird, by My Permission, and you breathed into it, and it became a bird by My Permission, and you healed those born blind, and the lepers by My Permission, and when you brought forth the dead by My Permission; and when I restrained the Children of Israel from you (when they resolved to kill you) as you came unto them with clear proofs, and the disbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.' " (110)

And when I revealed to the disciples to believe in Me and My Messenger, they said: "We believe. And bear witness that we are Muslims (i.e submitted to God)." (111)

(Remember) when the disciples said: "O Jesus son of Mary! Can your Lord send down to us a table spread (with food) from heaven?" Jesus said: "Fear All‚h, if you are indeed believers." (112)

They said: "We wish to eat thereof and to satisfy your heart, and to know that you have indeed told us the truth and that we ourselves be its witnesses." (113) Jesus son of Mary said: "O All‚h, our Lord! Send us from heaven a table spread (with food) that there may be for us - for the first and the last of us - a festival and a sign from You; and provide us sustenance, for You are the Best of sustainers." (114)

All‚h said: "I am going to send it down unto you, but if any of you after that disbelieves, then I will punish him with a torment such as I have not inflicted on anyone among (all) the worlds." (115)

And (remember) when All‚h will say (on the Day of Resurrection): "O Jesus son of Mary! Did you say unto men: 'Worship me and my mother as two gods besides All‚h?' " He will say: "Glory be to You! It was not for me to say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would surely have known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden. (116)

"Never did I say to them aught except what You did command me to say: 'Worship All‚h, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. (117)

"If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All¨Mighty, the All¨Wise." (118)

All‚h will say: "This is a Day on which the truthful will profit from their truth: theirs are Gardens under which rivers flow - they shall abide therein forever. All‚h is pleased with them and they with Him. That is the great success. (119)

To All‚h belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein, and He is Able to do all things. (120) [Quran: Ch.5]

...

ROM
06-12-2011, 11:51 AM
Did he say or do anything that would lead you to believe he was a fraud? From what the bible says, he was a great human being with no malicious intent. He was so dedicated to his teachings he even died for them. Now could you say the same about Satan?

slave of Allaah
06-12-2011, 12:09 PM
I believe that the christian and jews who were not aware of that but they were sincere in obeying God such that if they knew the truth would follow it are all going to Heaven.

Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in All‚h and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. (62)

God knows the heart of the people and He understand the motivation behind their behavior. No one will be lost if he was truely seeking the Truth.

Honza
06-12-2011, 01:05 PM
Did he say or do anything that would lead you to believe he was a fraud? From what the bible says, he was a great human being with no malicious intent. He was so dedicated to his teachings he even died for them. Now could you say the same about Satan?

That is a great question.

My fear is/was that Christ IS Satan and he tricked us into believing he is good and into believing he is God so that we turn to him and surrender - at which point he betrays us and takes us AWAY from God.

The whole crucifiction and the teachings may be an elaborate trick to mislead us away from God.

If we surrender to Christ, and Christ is in fact Satan, then we have surrendered to Satan.

It sounds like horrible and crazy paranoia I know. But it is these dark places my mind goes at times.

Occultist
06-12-2011, 07:06 PM
In a roundabout way Jesus Christ claimed himself to be God just as much as Satan did. Perhaps they are the same person?

What is the difference between Christ calling himself God and Satan calling himself God?

Are they not both comitting blasphemy?
Good question but as a person who studies judaism I am assuming cause it was in the judaism thread do you believe in a Satan?. I mean Temple teaches of false prophets I had one Rabbi even tell me Yeshua might have been just a misunderstood Rabbi.
But I am very familiar with this claim. But many people will just blinding start throwing biblical scriptures at you instead of try to figure or debunk this mystery for that I am sorry and I due recommend you talk to your Rabbi.

Mayflow
06-12-2011, 08:21 PM
Many believe that the book of Job is the oldest Biblical book. In it, Satan is not the same as most think of today.

The Satan of the Biblical book "Job":

Job's Satan
In the Book of Job, ha-Satan is a member of the divine council, "the sons of God" who are subservient to God. Ha-Satan, in this capacity, is many times translated as "the prosecutor", and is charged by God to tempt humans and to report back to God all who go against His decrees. At the beginning of the book, Job is a good person "who feared God and turned away from evil" (Job 1:1), and has therefore been rewarded by God. When the divine council meets, God informs ha-Satan about Job's blameless, morally upright character. Between Job 1:9Ė10 and 2:4Ė5, ha-Satan merely points out that God has given Job everything that a man could want, so of course Job would be loyal to God; if all Job has been given, even his health, were to be taken away from him, however, his faith would collapse. God therefore grants ha-Satan the chance to test Job.[11] Due to this, it has been interpreted that ha-Satan is under God's control and cannot act without God's permission. This is further shown in the epilogue of Job in which God is speaking to Job, ha-Satan is absent from these dialogues. "For Job, for [Job's] friends, and for the narrator, it is ultimately Yahweh himself who is responsible for Job's suffering; as Yahweh says to the 'satan', 'You have incited me against him, to destroy him for no reason.'" (Job 2:3) [7]

Mayflow
06-12-2011, 08:51 PM
RabbiO: try and see this sub-forum as an integrated part of the whole SF. It is inevitable that threads and posts will overlap as they discuss various parts of spirituality and what they relate to.

This whole FORUM is a spiritual place - not a religious place. I'm sure there are Judaic RELIGION forums. But SF is different because IT BREAKS THE DIVIDING LINES BETWEEN RELIGIONS DOWN. Not builds them up.

You need to let this Judaic Sub Forum BREATH!


May I take this a bit further and post an interesting talk in the Buddhist sub forum - I already addressed the Biblical question on the Judaic forum as to how Satan was presented in the book of Job as a tempter, but still only able to tempt as that God would allow...

Occultist
06-12-2011, 08:53 PM
Hebrew bible doesnt even recognize him as Satan of Christianity he was a “the accuser,” or “the adversary" is a member of the divine council and really has no power other then the power God Yewah bestowed on him.
But I think Christians will have a different view because of culture and teachings.

TeeHee
06-12-2011, 09:55 PM
That is a great question.

My fear is/was that Christ IS Satan and he tricked us into believing he is good and into believing he is God so that we turn to him and surrender - at which point he betrays us and takes us AWAY from God.

The whole crucifiction and the teachings may be an elaborate trick to mislead us away from God.

If we surrender to Christ, and Christ is in fact Satan, then we have surrendered to Satan.

It sounds like horrible and crazy paranoia I know. But it is these dark places my mind goes at times.

I had that thought once, many years ago and found a similar thought in a few popular cults and heresies. Matter of fact that thought came to me when struggling with an substance abuse problem, an addiction. Yea, it was paranoia.

TeeHee
06-12-2011, 09:59 PM
RabbiO: try and see this sub-forum as an integrated part of the whole SF. It is inevitable that threads and posts will overlap as they discuss various parts of spirituality and what they relate to.

This whole FORUM is a spiritual place - not a religious place. I'm sure there are Judaic RELIGION forums. But SF is different because IT BREAKS THE DIVIDING LINES BETWEEN RELIGIONS DOWN. Not builds them up.

You need to let this Judaic Sub Forum BREATH!

And where has that got you over the years?

TeeHee
06-12-2011, 10:22 PM
May I take this a bit further and post an interesting talk in the Buddhist sub forum - I already addressed the Biblical question on the Judaic forum as to how Satan was presented in the book of Job as a tempter, but still only able to tempt as that God would allow...

Here's a thought, God is not always present to bless. And we know as you mentioned earlier that in the book of Job Satan was used as an apparatus of the heavenly court. Diabolos-- which means slanderer.

Gracey
06-12-2011, 11:23 PM
to me honza, they are two sides of the same coin.

nightowl
06-12-2011, 11:36 PM
Honza,

Can you please share the scripture or verse where Satan claims to be God?
Thank you...

Honza
07-12-2011, 03:52 PM
Honza,

Can you please share the scripture or verse where Satan claims to be God?
Thank you...

You have got me there. I don't know where it is or even if it is in the Bible. I've heard that story many times though. I'm not sure where it originates from.

That is a good point. Why did Satan fall? Did he call himself God?

Miss Hepburn
07-12-2011, 04:15 PM
You have got me there. I don't know where it is or even if it is in the Bible. I've heard that story many times though. I'm not sure where it originates from.

That is a good point. Why did Satan fall? Actually that would be Lucifer, jealousy Did he call himself God?
I know of no place where satan calls himself God.
(Most Christian authors will never honor satan by capitalizing the name, btw....I liked that and follow suit.)

Lucifer - as the story goes - was jealous that God made Man more powerful , more special than even the angels ---of which Lucifer was a top dog (ref Hebrews Ch 1, 2 and Peter 3 - they are subject now to Jesus at God's right hand,)
Lucifer never said he was God, hope I got that right.
And neither did satan - - after the fall, he was never referred to again as 'Lucifer' a beloved angel of God's.

Satan is the ruler of this world, however (according to the stories, that is)...thus, Jesus never questioned satan's power to give him riches here on earth - because he did have that power - it was truly a temptation for Jesus during his 40 days of fasting.
(If he had no power there couldn't have been a temptation, see?)

But ''God''? - I'd like to see where that might be also.
Now, in Is 14:12 - God laments about the fall of Lucifer (the first time he is mentioned by name, KJV) ''the son of the morning...''

Later Lucifer says, "I will be like the Most High." He's just spouting what he wants to be.

Amilius777
07-12-2011, 05:53 PM
Thank you Miss Hepburn! Perfect answer!

This is why the great rishis of India and Jesus' teachings are on par along with Buddha's encounter with Mara. Yogananda even himself, the yogi as you know, had personal encounters with Satan.

Satan is just as much a part of God as we all are. He is called in Isaiah, the blacksmith. He has tools and devices that put up screens and walls of ignorance keeping us unaware of God while in the flesh. Satan has a cosmic purpose of keeping the good and evil balances.

Satan is a force. "Lightning falling from heaven". Jesus could have used another word. But he didn't he used lightning. Not just because it is fast. But because it is an energy. Satan is an energy and force. And this Force was rejected from the heavenly cosmos because it began creating temptations and sensual delights to steer souls out of Heaven into matter. And so God the Absolute Spirit made a firmament between the Spiritual world and the physical world. This firmament is Maya, the cosmic delusion. It makes everything seem separated from God. Satan, which is basically God in Matter, or a backwards version of God could have given Jesus anything he wanted or Buddha anything.

The greedy souls on Wall street. How else did they receive their selfish gifts and aims when coming into incarnation? Siding with the Satanic energy. How did millions of Germans fall to the suggestive and powerful voice of Hitler and controlled like puppets? Alliance with that satanic energy. How did millions of Christians in the Crusades forget their illuminating teachings of their Messiah Jesus and fall prey to ignorance and "KILL" in the name of God? Cooperation with this energy.

So the idea of becoming possessed by the devil is a real thing. Not like in the movies but has a spiritual scientific explanation to back it up.

Honza
07-12-2011, 06:02 PM
Interesting, thankyou.

nightowl
07-12-2011, 07:16 PM
Satan as is mentioned earlier in the responses is totally different then the way Christian theology interpret it. The passage in Isaiah were Lucifer is mentioned; which is a Latin word by the way that was inserted into the passage by Jerome when translating the text. This passage is about a actually king at the time, it is telling of this kings fall from glory, not satan. Which wasn't even considered and angel until Christianity interpreted it that way. So in essence all interpretation of satan in the new testament are just theories and conjecture. It is their way of finding a place to assign evil in the world, it is all the devils fault...

TeeHee
07-12-2011, 10:08 PM
Ezekiel 28:12-18

Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.

Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

Amilius777
07-12-2011, 10:52 PM
I honestly do not think Ezekiel was referring to Satan. He is referring to the king of Tyrus in his literal statement. He is saying how we all have been in the Garden of Eden as the cherub, as the angel. As the divine soul. But we found error in ourselves and cast ourselves out. The rest is personally for Tyrus himself in which God is saying he will crush him to the ground for his errors. Not that God is a cosmic dictator but due to Tyrus' evil deeds he will reap. From the bad fruit/action Tyrus had made for himself, he shall eat from that bad fruit and die from that fruit to learn a lesson.

And if Ezekiel is referring to the Devil, then he means the devil has entered us all making us short of God's divine nature.

TeeHee
07-12-2011, 11:01 PM
Luke 10:18-20

And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

Honza
08-12-2011, 06:07 AM
To me this whole issue of 'calling oneself God' is a moral dilema. It is something I feel has been puzzling me for as long as I (my soul) has existed. It is something which has really gotten under my skin.

Is Jesus the only one who has the right (or wrong) to call Himself God? May people call themselves god (not God) too?

Do you see? It is a moral minefield.

psychoslice
08-12-2011, 06:56 AM
To me this whole issue of 'calling oneself God' is a moral dilema. It is something I feel has been puzzling me for as long as I (my soul) has existed. It is something which has really gotten under my skin.

Is Jesus the only one who has the right (or wrong) to call Himself God? May people call themselves god (not God) too?

Do you see? It is a moral minefield.
Jesus never actually said that he was god, he pointed to the inner self, he said that he cannot do anything without the father, which is our Universal Consciousness, we and the Father are ONE, Jesus only pointed to it, and so we should.

TeeHee
08-12-2011, 08:22 AM
To me this whole issue of 'calling oneself God' is a moral dilema. It is something I feel has been puzzling me for as long as I (my soul) has existed. It is something which has really gotten under my skin.

Is Jesus the only one who has the right (or wrong) to call Himself God? May people call themselves god (not God) too?

Do you see? It is a moral minefield.

Honza,

True worship belongs only to God. It would be blasphemy for worshiping a mere man. By worshiping an image of your making, whether it be a wooden idol or the mental model constructed in your imagination you're fundamentally worshiping yourself.

When for example, people sing songs of praise and pray in the name of Jesus, if they thought Jesus was merely a great human teacher, such a religion would be blasphemous. You should not worship Jesus if He is only a man to you.

Lastly, it seems as though you have not read the Bible. What texts have you actually read? If you are having problems reading you might want to look into an audio version in all seriousness.

Honza
08-12-2011, 08:27 AM
Honza,
Lastly, it seems as though you have not read the Bible. What texts have you actually read? If you are having problems reading you might want to look into an audio version in all seriousness.

I have never read the bible from start to finish. That is true. But being the book it is I have read and heard much from it.

What difference do you think it would make?

TeeHee
08-12-2011, 08:29 AM
I have never read the bible from start to finish. That is true. But being the book it is I have read and heard much from it.

What difference do you think it would make?

The "World View" makes all the Difference. Honza if you live in the United States and don't have a Bible, PM me your address.

Honza
08-12-2011, 08:30 AM
Jesus never actually said that he was god, he pointed to the inner self, he said that he cannot do anything without the father, which is our Universal Consciousness, we and the Father are ONE, Jesus only pointed to it, and so we should.

Saying that "he pointed to the inner self" is a huge understatement. According to what is written in the New Testament Jesus gave people the impression that He was "The Son Of God" - Him - Jesus. Not everyone else and not the 'inner self'.

There is a way of saying we are all God. Or the inner self is God. And there is a way of saying "I Am The Son Of God" - which is what He said!

There is no way around it.

Honza
08-12-2011, 08:33 AM
The "World View" makes all the Difference. Honza if you live in the United States and don't have a Bible, PM me your address.

I have the Bible in my bedroom. I check it often. Although not as often as I ought to. It is a book that requires to be known.

TeeHee
08-12-2011, 08:38 AM
I have the Bible in my bedroom. I check it often. Although not as often as I ought to. It is a book that requires to be known.

Having a personal relationship with Jesus is knowing something about Jesus. Knowing His mission and sacrifice. If there is no other text you read then read the New Testament. However, to understand the full context of the New Testament you must read the Old. I'm sure Rabbio is more than qualified to help you with the OT (but not limited to). For the NT, I'll try my best through PM (though probably not the best to turn to,- teehee), or if I may, PM theophilus. These two are the most respectful and straight forward people I have encountered in this forum. If they have time perhaps they can help you.

Try to read just one chapter a day in chronological order, and meditate on the words each and every day.

Best wishes Honza.

Honza
08-12-2011, 08:47 AM
This answer came up on another forum. It is a very interesting POV.

[quote]
I'm a male. I don't have the "right" to say that because I don't need to have that "right" - it's simply how things are. It's an objective statement of fact. If I say I'm not a male, then the issue isn't whether I was granted or denied that right, it's whether I'm confused or lying, because I am what I am: a guy.

Jesus either was the eternal, coexistent Son of God, who Christians call the Second Person of the Divine Trinity, or He wasn't. It's not a question of whether He had the "right" to say it - it's either true or it isn't.
[unquote]

Honza
08-12-2011, 08:50 AM
And this:

[quote]
As far as anyone else having the "right" to say it, that falls into the same category: it's either true or it isn't.
[unquote]

Mayflow
08-12-2011, 11:56 PM
There is a difference between saying you are the only child of god, which I don't think Jesus said or meant, and saying we are all God's children, which is what I think he said.

Yamah
12-12-2011, 08:30 AM
I can understand why this belongs in the Judaism sub-forum... Yeshu was a Jew and since this is about him more than his teachings then this is a question about a Jew.

As stated above several times, The Satan is depicted very differently in Judaism. We don't have a concept of 'the fall'.

To answer your original question, anyone who claims to be God is both wrong and also committing an act of blasphemy. If Yeshu or The Satan said it then they would have been blasphemers. Additionally, anyone who claims another person is God (ie. most christians) is also a blasphemer.

If you would like to know more about this stipulation of Blasphemy i would like to direct your attention to the Rambam's Third Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God does not have a body. Physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a part of God?' I would direct your attention to The Rambam's Second Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our God - He Was, He Is, and He Will Be."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a son of God?' I would direct your attention back to the third principle of faith... if God is not a man, how can He have a son?

If you were to then say 'well it's metaphorical, it means he was created by God', then I would tell you that Yeshu had no reason to say that because it's obvious... Since sages don't make a habit of making words, either he was a blaspheming sage or a fool and either way you shouldn't listen to him.

RabbiO
12-12-2011, 11:09 AM
I can understand why this belongs in the Judaism sub-forum... Yeshu was a Jew and since this is about him more than his teachings then this is a question about a Jew.

As stated above several times, The Satan is depicted very differently in Judaism. We don't have a concept of 'the fall'.

To answer your original question, anyone who claims to be God is both wrong and also committing an act of blasphemy. If Yeshu or The Satan said it then they would have been blasphemers. Additionally, anyone who claims another person is God (ie. most christians) is also a blasphemer.

If you would like to know more about this stipulation of Blasphemy i would like to direct your attention to the Rambam's Third Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God does not have a body. Physical concepts do not apply to Him. There is nothing whatsoever that resembles Him at all."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a part of God?' I would direct your attention to The Rambam's Second Principle of Faith:

"I believe with perfect faith that God is One. There is no unity that is in any way like His. He alone is our God - He Was, He Is, and He Will Be."

If you were to then ask 'but can't he be a son of God?' I would direct your attention back to the third principle of faith... if God is not a man, how can He have a son?

If you were to then say 'well it's metaphorical, it means he was created by God', then I would tell you that Yeshu had no reason to say that because it's obvious... Since sages don't make a habit of making words, either he was a blaspheming sage or a fool and either way you shouldn't listen to him.

Yamah,

If you and I believed in the claims of Christian scripture, we would be Christians -- but we do not and we are not.

If you and I believed in the claims of the Quran, we would be Muslims -- but we do not and we are not.

The fact that you and I are Jews, no matter any differences between us, says something about us, our religious path and where we stand regarding the religious paths of others. Acknowledging that religions have differences, significant at times, disagree sometimes on primary perceptions, does not necessarily entail trying to prove them wrong.

As for Jesus, there remains the problem of knowing what, if anything, he actually said in regard to being the son of G-d or G-d incarnate.

B'shalom,

Peter

Yamah
12-12-2011, 01:48 PM
RabbiO,

I acknowledge that you are a lot more accepting of other faiths than I am, and it brings me comfort to know that you are always there to present the other side of the issue. Thank you for being the Hillel to my Shammai.

RabbiO
12-12-2011, 05:12 PM
RabbiO,

I acknowledge that you are a lot more accepting of other faiths than I am, and it brings me comfort to know that you are always there to present the other side of the issue. Thank you for being the Hillel to my Shammai.

And I in turn owe you my thanks for your willingness to share your wisdom and your perspectives. Remember, not in all disputations did Beit Hillel prevail over Beit Shammai.

B'shalom,

Peter

Yamah
12-12-2011, 05:23 PM
Beit Shammai was always right. So was Beit Hillel. We just follow Beit Hillel in the majority of cases because were we to follow Beit Shammai our heads would explode.

truther
25-01-2012, 03:09 AM
Perhaps Jesus had good intent being a human being and Satan had other plans to have people and angels worship him. Remember Jesus pointed that people should worship God. And he always spoke about him doing his Father's will. So he saw himself as the second person of the Godhead. I think that's what he was referring to whereas Lucifer was about lording it over people in a hateful manner toward humans and God.

psychoslice
25-01-2012, 03:20 AM
Of course there is no such person as Satan, Satan is our ego, so if we declare that we are God from the ego's point of view, then that is Satan talking, but when we are coming from our inner Being, then that is the Christ talking.

Honza
26-01-2012, 04:32 PM
Perhaps Jesus had good intent being a human being and Satan had other plans to have people and angels worship him. Remember Jesus pointed that people should worship God. And he always spoke about him doing his Father's will. So he saw himself as the second person of the Godhead. I think that's what he was referring to whereas Lucifer was about lording it over people in a hateful manner toward humans and God.

I like this post. Thanks.

jalini
26-01-2012, 05:15 PM
And Christ said "I Am The Lord" just as Satan did!In a roundabout way Jesus Christ claimed himself to be God just as much as Satan did. Perhaps they are the same person?

What is the difference between Christ calling himself God and Satan calling himself God?

Are they not both comitting blasphemy?
__________________


Greetings, but DID the Christ say he was the Messiah/Lord?

The exchange between (I believe) Pilot and The Christ when he was being questioned.... They asked him, "are you the messiah?"

He responded.... "You say I am" Four simple words yes? But now look at them as I add emphasis:
"YOU say I am" (others may or may not)
"you SAY I am" (you say it but you do not Know it...your heart is veiled)
"you say I AM" (which is the same as the messiah...God said "I am that I am" yes?).
"you say I am" (why do you not accuse others? emphasis on the "I")

How you understand his reply varies with this understanding :) And the same would apply to Satan.

Blessings, jalini

Miss Hepburn
26-01-2012, 05:55 PM
Remember Jesus pointed that people should worship God.
Exactly! Yes.
And he always spoke about him doing his Father's will. Yes!




So he saw himself as the second person of the Godhead. ?
Hi truther and welcome here,


Now, how do you figure that last sentence?
It didn't ring true to me, nor did it
seem like a logical progression from what you said before it.
Thanks

RabbiO
26-01-2012, 07:27 PM
Greetings, but DID the Christ say he was the Messiah/Lord?

The exchange between (I believe) Pilot and The Christ when he was being questioned.... They asked him, "are you the messiah?"

He responded.... "You say I am" Four simple words yes? But now look at them as I add emphasis:
"YOU say I am" (others may or may not)
"you SAY I am" (you say it but you do not Know it...your heart is veiled)
"you say I AM" (which is the same as the messiah...God said "I am that I am" yes?).
"you say I am" (why do you not accuse others? emphasis on the "I")

How you understand his reply varies with this understanding :) And the same would apply to Satan.

Blessings, jalini

If one accepts as gospel (pardon the pun) Christian scripture - which is not part of my sacred literature - then Jesus does indeed proclaim himself to be the messiah in John 4:25-26 when speaking to a Samaritan woman.

I was a little confused by your question "...DID the Christ say he was the Messiah/Lord?" I was not sure if you were equating the term messiah with the word lord. The Hebrew word משיח, mashiach, which becomes messiah when anglicized, simply means one who is anointed. Similarly, the Greek word Χριστός Christos, which becomes Christ when anglicized, simply means one who is anointed.

B'shalom,

Peter

Serenity69
01-02-2012, 11:24 PM
Christ His The Son Of God...

Lucifer Was Ousted By God To His Self Created Hell...

He Took A Third Of God's Angels To The Hellish Realm...

sbjazzman
21-03-2012, 04:06 PM
On 5:18 here is one commentary that helps reframe this a little:

:Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary

18. God was his Father-literally, "His own [or peculiar] Father," (as in Ro 8:32). The addition is their own, but a very proper one.

making himself equal with God-rightly gathering this to be His meaning, not from the mere words "My Father," but from His claim of right to act as His Father did in the like high sphere, and by the same law of ceaseless activity in that sphere. And as, instead of instantly disclaiming any such meaning-as He must have done if it was false-He positively sets His seal to it in the following verses, merely explaining how consistent such claim was with the prerogatives of His Father, it is beyond all doubt that we have here an assumption of peculiar personal Sonship, or participation in the Father's essential nature"

I also have more to say on this subject using another gospel as reference if you go to oracle of the phoenix dotcom click on forum and The Aquarian Gospel.