Arguments for and against Wicca

[Chrode]

Why choose Wicca?
And why not?

Simpel question. :)

[Quintessence]

Coming at this as a Neopagan who initially started in Wicca (as it seems most of us do) I can only speak of why I personally did not choose it. I would bear in mind that defining "Wicca" is somewhat complicated, but I tend to define Wicca as a nature-based religion whose worship focuses on an archetypal God and Goddess, honors natural rhythms, abides by the Rede, and has strong ritualistic and magical elements.

The primary thing I dislike about Wicca is how it likes to interpret the universe from a very sexualized perspective. You have the God and you have the Goddess, and the entire Wiccan mythos centers around male-female sex dynamics. Gender (social construct regarding "masculinity" and "femininity") is slapped onto everything, even things that do not have a physical sex. Not only does this approach encourage sexist ways of thinking, but it also is extremely anthropocentric. The vast majority of the universe is sexless, and once you get outside of the animal kingdom, organisms being divided into "male" and "female" is a rare novelty. I want to understand the universe and its denizens from their perspectives, not constantly project the human male-female and masculine-feminine archetypes onto it.

A secondary reason that Wicca wasn't for me has to do with its origins. Wiccan systems of ritual and magic derives from ceremonial magic. Since my initial interest in Wicca was to its nature-centered aspects - and ceremonial magic is not nature-centered in how it is constructed - Wiccan use of this structure in ritual/magic didn't appeal to me. Not all people who call themselves Wiccan use this type of structure, granted, but it's rather pervasive not just in Wicca but even in generic Neopaganism.

None of this is to say Wicca is a bad religion. It just wasn't for me. There are doubtless aspects of my path that have a Wiccan flavor to them, since that is where I first started off. I honor something similar to their Wheel of the Year, and the approach Wiccan writers have to magic and ritual has doubtless influenced me. It has the benefit of having a stronger community and literature base than many other forms of Neopaganism, so it offers a bit more structure. That structure can also take the form of strong communities in Wicca in the form of covens, something whose value shouldn't be understated. Though not all forms of Wicca are coven-based, those that are derive great strength from that shared learning and celebration. I end up going to UU churches to get that element in my religious practice, but it's not the same.

[norseman]

As Quintessence said, I was one who initially was drawn to wicca and am still a Global Moderator of a wiccan forum. An ex-HPS there pointed me towards the older tradition which gave birth to Gardner's wicca, the Cunning Folk which I had been following for some decades without knowing it.
Unlike Quintessence, I regard the coven system as a weakness of wicca and, in fact, the coven is no longer a big feature of British wicca. However, the thing that I really dislike about wicca is the regimentation and the hierarchical structure, coupled with the formality of rituals.
My chosen path is informal, individualistic, and structure-free. My relationship with the deity and the Earth is personal and one-to-one, and there is an unbroken link going back millennia to the ancestors who roamed this Land. My "teachers" in this path are the Spirits of the Land itself. Wicca, as such, has no history and no natural evolution.

[Greenlove92]

I started with wicca too, but all the practices and ceremonies, plus having to be iniciated by a coven (from what i've heard)...
I am not into a rigid religion and mold things my way. So i soon discoved a more geral path fit me best.

:)

[Medium_Laura]

I am a solitary though I did learn a lot from a Coven that a friend of mine was the HP of. I did not join but was allowed to be in rites and ceremonies. I discovered Wicca through a past life regression. When I "experienced" the peace I felt being a Witch. I again chose to learn and follow the path. (at age 20) I've not followed one specific trad, but do hang out with a bunch of solitaries in my area, doing drum circles, faires and events.

[Alchymist]

I "am" an initiated Witch and an initiated ceremonial magic(k)ian, but in general I dislike labels - for the simple reason that, if you attach a label to yourself, then other people you interact with tend to react to the label rather than to the person behind it; and thus also, react to all the historical baggage that the label carries with it. Say "I'm a Witch" to some people and they immediately think "devil-worshipper, evil, anti-Christian, debauched orgies at midnight". Then having to explain, "no, that's not we do, no, we don't worship the Devil, we don't even believe in the Devil......" can get a bit tedious after a while. Say "I'm Wiccan", and a different group of people immediately want to know which lineage, what coven, who initiated you,.......

There isn't really a word for what "I" "am". If pressed, I'll call myself a Seeker, although even this carries new-agey overtones. Wizard, Occultist, Freethinker..... it's a conundrum I haven't been able to resolve to my own satisfaction in almost 50 years of practise.... so any suggestions would be welcomed!

Alchymist

[Occultist]

Thats like asking why choose Christianity ? I mean isnt that a lil personal?
Mind you Wicca isnt fear based just Kharma based but still a personal choice for nobody to make but the person.

[norseman]

Alchymist - the "old names" are less loaded perhaps. Wise/Cunning Folk

[mattie]

As with why one chooses any spiritually oriented belief, this is entirely subjective. Personally, I don't really hold any particular belief although some parts of many belief systems resonate.

[Chrode]

Thats like asking why choose Christianity ? I mean isnt that a lil personal?
Mind you Wicca isnt fear based just Kharma based but still a personal choice for nobody to make but the person.

Karma is not mention in the Charges and therefor i don't think that all wiccans believe in that. Btw if Wicca is not fear based... Why worship the lord and lady? Why follow the laws? What is the meaning of the life?

[norseman]

Part of the Wiccan Credo is the Law of the Three-Fold Return.

"Mind the Threefold Law you should,
Three times bad and three times good."

And this derives from the pagan notion of The Weaver goddess, Arianrhod, who spins the thread of being and weaves the web which connects all life together. Your actions are amplified by the Web and returned to you threefold. You are the agent of your own fate i.e. karma.

[Chrode]

Part of the Wiccan Credo is the Law of the Three-Fold Return.

"Mind the Threefold Law you should,
Three times bad and three times good."

And this derives from the pagan notion of The Weaver goddess, Arianrhod, who spins the thread of being and weaves the web which connects all life together. Your actions are amplified by the Web and returned to you threefold. You are the agent of your own fate i.e. karma.

The wiccan credo is not holy...

[Occultist]

Part of the Wiccan Credo is the Law of the Three-Fold Return.

"Mind the Threefold Law you should,
Three times bad and three times good."

And this derives from the pagan notion of The Weaver goddess, Arianrhod, who spins the thread of being and weaves the web which connects all life together. Your actions are amplified by the Web and returned to you threefold. You are the agent of your own fate i.e. karma.
not really I believe gardner just added it. you can connect something to anything given half the chance. 3x3 is just a Garald Gardner rede.
I mean we could tie this to the 3 fates or trinity or Goddess.
But nowhere in Witchcraft is there a 3fold law just intent and purpose. rest is man made.

[Occultist]

Karma is not mention in the Charges and therefor i don't think that all wiccans believe in that. Btw if Wicca is not fear based... Why worship the lord and lady? Why follow the laws? What is the meaning of the life?
Wicca doesnt believe in a hell Lord and Lady is dietys of power to be worshiped only by those who choose. I am not Wiccan but a 3 fold law is a Kharmic law as apposed to a fire and brimstone hell law. dont you think?

[Chrode]

Wicca doesnt believe in a hell Lord and Lady is dietys of power to be worshiped only by those who choose. I am not Wiccan but a 3 fold law is a Kharmic law as apposed to a fire and brimstone hell law. dont you think?

A punishment from the devine dos not have to be the hell like in Christianity.
It can be other things.

[Wicked Willow]

What bothers me most about Gardnerian Wicca is its faux history, coupled with its obvious (but unacknowledged) "borrowings" from the Golden Dawn, Thelema, and Freemasonry.

Plus, in spite of being often regarded as a feminist religion, it very much perpetuates traditional gender roles in how it defines masculinity and femininity.

[norseman]

"borrowings" from the Golden Dawn, Thelema, and Freemasonry."

And the rest ! There is some valid history in the craft core.

[norseman]

not really I believe gardner just added it. you can connect something to anything given half the chance. 3x3 is just a Garald Gardner rede.
I mean we could tie this to the 3 fates or trinity or Goddess.
But nowhere in Witchcraft is there a 3fold law just intent and purpose. rest is man made.

"And this derives from the pagan notion of The Weaver goddess, Arianrhod, who spins the thread of being and weaves the web which connects all life together. Your actions are amplified by the Web and returned to you threefold." This is part of Welsh Celtic Mythology.

[Wolfe of Wildwood]

Karma is not mention in the Charges and therefor i don't think that all wiccans believe in that. Btw if Wicca is not fear based... Why worship the lord and lady? Why follow the laws? What is the meaning of the life?
If you follow the lord and lady out of fear they won't thank you for it. In Wicca you are meant to follow them out of love, it's a lot like family dynamics. If you listen to your parents out of fear, than you are not going to have a good relationship with them, but rather a perverse version of what a family is supposed to be. On the other hand, if you listen to your parents out of love and because you trust them, then you have a true relationship with them. NO real relationships were ever built on fear, and the same holds true for the relationship a wiccan holds with the lord and lady.

[Wicked Willow]

"borrowings" from the Golden Dawn, Thelema, and Freemasonry."

And the rest ! There is some valid history in the craft core.

I don't mind so much that Gardner collected ideas from various sources and combined them into something new. What I do mind is not giving credit to your sources, and pretending that it's all been part of your own system to begin with.
Pretending to be a secret stone age religion doesn't exactly help, either.

[Chrode]

If you follow the lord and lady out of fear they won't thank you for it. In Wicca you are meant to follow them out of love, it's a lot like family dynamics. If you listen to your parents out of fear, than you are not going to have a good relationship with them, but rather a perverse version of what a family is supposed to be. On the other hand, if you listen to your parents out of love and because you trust them, then you have a true relationship with them. NO real relationships were ever built on fear, and the same holds true for the relationship a wiccan holds with the lord and lady.

I don't believe in that. The lord and lady have both god and bad sides. How can you love someone who are responsible for all those bad things that happens? Like handicap, famine, nature disaster and sickness.
Btw the charge of the god says:
"Let there be desire and fear, anger and weakness, joy and peace, awe and longing
within you."

[norseman]

I don't mind so much that Gardner collected ideas from various sources and combined them into something new. What I do mind is not giving credit to your sources, and pretending that it's all been part of your own system to begin with.
Pretending to be a secret stone age religion doesn't exactly help, either.
The core is Witchcraft which does have a long history all the way back to tribal shaman/wise men-women *. As for the rest, you have to examine Gardner's interests which included the Rosicrucians, Druids [his close friend founded the largest order of British Druids and they collaborated in forming both movements], the Celtic Church [Gardner and his pal were both ordained priests !], Spielplatz [a Naturist Group still going today], Templars, various Oriental mystic groups from his time in the Far East. When you know his background, his sources become rather obvious, don't they :smile:

* check out "Triumph of the Moon" - Prof. Ronald Hutton, University of Bristol and "Cunning Folk and Familiar Spirits" - Emma Wilby, Fellow of University of Exeter.

[Occultist]

A punishment from the devine dos not have to be the hell like in Christianity.
It can be other things.


But not suffering but things to learn nowhere is there suffering. Wicca is a non fear based religion you cant argue it is. If you are looking for one join up with the Christians.

[Occultist]

"And this derives from the pagan notion of The Weaver goddess, Arianrhod, who spins the thread of being and weaves the web which connects all life together. Your actions are amplified by the Web and returned to you threefold." This is part of Welsh Celtic Mythology.
I know welsh celtic mythology I am saying Gardner never based his 3 fold law on anything guy made it up.

[Occultist]

What bothers me most about Gardnerian Wicca is its faux history, coupled with its obvious (but unacknowledged) "borrowings" from the Golden Dawn, Thelema, and Freemasonry.

Plus, in spite of being often regarded as a feminist religion, it very much perpetuates traditional gender roles in how it defines masculinity and femininity.
Agreed but many Wiccans dont read Garald Gardners work they claim Wicca like a New Age movement because of that I believe Wicca through TV and ** has taken on a life of its own and will be exploited as such.

[Chrode]

But not suffering but things to learn nowhere is there suffering. Wicca is a non fear based religion you cant argue it is. If you are looking for one join up with the Christians.

Why does someone borns with handicap, sickness and other bad things?
The charge of the goddess says:

"From me all things proceed,
and unto me all things must return"

Therefor all the bad things also comes from the goddess.

[Occultist]

Why does someone borns with handicap, sickness and other bad things?
The charge of the goddess says:

"From me all things proceed,
and unto me all things must return"

Therefor all the bad things also comes from the goddess.
again I meant hell. Nature is cruel and wise so is the Goddess after all she is the embodiment of nature. But to direct suffering onto one being for being "Bad" no its not done in nature there for its not done to humans.

[norseman]

I know welsh celtic mythology I am saying Gardner never based his 3 fold law on anything guy made it up.

I think plagiarised is a better description of most of Gardner's stuff.

[vulkus]

Why choose Wicca?
And why not?

Simpel question. :)
No it isn't a simple question, this type of questioning of other ppl and their beliefs happens a lot on these forums. This post is very troll like and it has an agenda.

[Chrode]

again I meant hell. Nature is cruel and wise so is the Goddess after all she is the embodiment of nature. But to direct suffering onto one being for being "Bad" no its not done in nature there for its not done to humans.

I don't talking about hell... Yes nature is cruel but why...?

[Wicked Willow]

I wouldn't ascribe emotions/actions such as cruelty or benevolence to Nature, even where Deity is concerned.

A lion killing a gazelle may seem cruel from the "victim's" POV, but a lion starving to death, or a gazelle population spike gobbling up vegetation until all resources are depleted and the animals die by the hundreds is not necessarily a better alternative.

Biological life is all about establishing a fluid equilibrium: its essence is change (or impermanence), and to bemoan death is to miss the fact that without death, life as we know it would be impossible to begin with.
In fact, permanence would be the One True Death: a stasis-state, where things remain the same for infinity.

[Occultist]

I think plagiarised is a better description of most of Gardner's stuff.
100% agreed

[Occultist]

I don't talking about hell... Yes nature is cruel but why...?
Balance, in order for good there has to be bad in nature its balance thats why no single thing can be judged we are all good and bad. Its balance not condemnation.

[Occultist]

I wouldn't ascribe emotions/actions such as cruelty or benevolence to Nature, even where Deity is concerned.

A lion killing a gazelle may seem cruel from the "victim's" POV, but a lion starving to death, or a gazelle population spike gobbling up vegetation until all resources are depleted and the animals die by the hundreds is not necessarily a better alternative.

Biological life is all about establishing a fluid equilibrium: its essence is change (or impermanence), and to bemoan death is to miss the fact that without death, life as we know it would be impossible to begin with.
In fact, permanence would be the One True Death: a stasis-state, where things remain the same for infinity.
exactly there must be balance for some thats cruel but thats balance.

[Occultist]

No it isn't a simple question, this type of questioning of other ppl and their beliefs happens a lot on these forums. This post is very troll like and it has an agenda.
so is most of the threads on this forum. But they also make you think.

[Lostgirl]

Why choose Wicca?
And why not?

Simpel question. :)

I started with Wicca like many and have swiftly moved on from it. When i started wicca resonated with me but there soon appeared many things about it that i didnt like and mvoed on :)