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Mayflow
29-11-2011, 11:26 PM
I feel that all is about embracing all that is within us and growing (evolving) within us both individually and as a whole. Buddhism, in my finding, embraces this well in recognizing our interbeingness but also recognizing that we are free to be unique individuals sharing with one another, and I guess I think we do this on two different levels. On the one hand, we are humans being human, sharing and learning together, and on the other hand we are eternal creators forever, both individually and together.

Samana
30-11-2011, 06:55 PM
and on the other hand we are eternal creators forever, both individually and together.

I'm not sure what you mean. This seems speculative and isn't taking into consideration the Buddha's teachings on impermanence and not-self (anicca and anatta)

The Buddha didn't teach eternalism.


with kind wishes,

Samana

.

Mayflow
01-12-2011, 12:28 AM
I'm not sure what you mean. This seems speculative and isn't taking into consideration the Buddha's teachings on impermanence and not-self (anicca and anatta)

The Buddha didn't teach eternalism.


with kind wishes,

Samana

.


The Buddha taught that Nirvana is real, and Nirvana is Eternalism. Nirvana is the freedom from suffering that the four noble truths were about and the 8 right practices were meant to help everyone achieve, yes it is a schism, but Buddha also taught about bridging schisms, like in the parable of the raft.

Samana
01-12-2011, 06:33 AM
Perhaps you can point me to a sutta where the Buddha says nibbana is eternalism, thanks.


.

Samana
01-12-2011, 01:16 PM
The Buddha's conversation with Kaccaayana:

At Saavatthii the Ven. Kaccaayana asked the Blessed One:

"'Right view, right view,' it is said, Lord. In what way, Lord, is there right view?'

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, inclines to two views, to existence or to non-existence. But for him who, with the highest wisdom, sees the uprising of the world as it really is, 'non-existence of the world' does not apply, and for him who, with highest wisdom, sees the passing away of the world as it really is, 'existence of the world' does not apply.

"The world in general, Kaccaayana, grasps after systems and is imprisoned by dogmas. But he does not go along with that system-grasping, that mental obstinacy and dogmatic bias, does not grasp at it, does not affirm: 'This is my self.' He knows without doubt or hesitation that whatever arises is merely dukkha that what passes away is merely dukkha and such knowledge is his own, not depending on anyone else. This, Kaccaayana, is what constitutes right view.

"'Everything exists,' this is one extreme [view]; 'nothing exists,' this is the other extreme. Avoiding both extremes, the Tathaagata teaches a doctrine of the middle: Conditioned by ignorance are the formations... [as SN 12.10 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.or g%2Ftipitaka%2Fsn%2Fsn12%2Fsn12.010.wlsh.html)]... So there comes about the arising of this entire mass of suffering.

But from the complete fading away and cessation of ignorance there comes the cessation of the formations, from the cessation of the formations comes the cessation of consciousness... So there comes about the complete cessation of this entire mass of suffering."

(SN 12.15)

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.wlsh.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.accesstoinsight.or g%2Ftipitaka%2Fsn%2Fsn12%2Fsn12.015.wlsh.html)




_/\_

Mayflow
01-12-2011, 03:43 PM
I don't get why this was posted. Is Buddha saying he is smarter than everyone else, or just that life is suffering and it's best to just die? By the way, as far as I know, Buddha never wrote any of this. Just like Jesus never wrote anything. Others wrote about them.

Samana
01-12-2011, 04:16 PM
By the way, as far as I know, Buddha never wrote any of this. Just like Jesus never wrote anything. Others wrote about them.

The words of Buddha were chanted and memorised by monks until the time that they were written on palm leaves

I know from my own experience of chanting that this is an excellent way to memorise and pass on teachings:



Tipitaka (Tripitaka in Sanskrit) is the name given to the Buddhist (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fdhammawiki.com%2Findex .php%3Ftitle%3DBuddhist) sacred scriptures and is made up of two words; ti meaning ‘three’ and pitaka meaning ‘basket.’ The word basket was given to these writings because they were orally transmitted for some centuries (from about 483 BCE), the way a basket of earth at a construction site might be relayed from the head of one worker to another. It was written on palm leaves in the Pali language around 100 BCE. The three parts of the Tipitaka are the Sutta Pitaka (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fdhammawiki.com%2Findex .php%3Ftitle%3DSutta_Pitaka), the Vinaya Pitaka (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fdhammawiki.com%2Findex .php%3Ftitle%3DVinaya_Pitaka) and the Abhidhamma Pitaka (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fdhammawiki.com%2Findex .php%3Ftitle%3DAbhidhamma_Pitaka). The Tipitaka was composed in the Pali (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fdhammawiki.com%2Findex .php%3Ftitle%3DPali) language and takes up more than forty volumes in an English translation, roughly about 20,000 pages. It is the largest sacred book of any of the great world religions.
It is also known as the Pali Canon since the language is in Pali (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fdhammawiki.com%2Findex .php%3Ftitle%3DPali) and to better differentiate it from the Mahayana Tripitaka (only one letter difference).


http://dhammawiki.com/index.php?title=Tipitaka



Back later Mayflower....I am a busy woman offline at the moment and also I like to post on other websites which are exclusively for Budddhists .


Kind regards

S.

Mayflow
01-12-2011, 04:35 PM
The map is not the territory... ( by Ven Sochu)
One of the most famous parables told by the Buddha is the Parable of the Raft. In this he likened his teachings to a raft for crossing a fast-flowing river.

The parable narrates how a man is trapped on one side of a river. On this side, there is great danger and uncertainty and on the far side of the river is safety. However there is no bridge spanning the river nor is there a ferry to cross over. What to do? The man gathers together logs, leaves, and creepers and by his wit fashions a raft from these materials. By lying on the raft and using his hands and feet as paddles he manages to cross the river from the dangerous side to the side of safety.

The Buddha then asks the listeners a question. What would you think if the man, having crossed over the river thought to himself – That raft has served me well I will carry it on my back over the land now? The monks replied that it would not be a very sensible idea to cling to the raft in such a way. The Buddha went on – What if he lay the raft down gratefully thinking that this raft has served him well but is no longer of use and can thus be laid down upon the shore? The monks replied that this would be the proper attitude. The Buddha concluded by saying – So it is with my teachings which are like a raft and are for crossing over with not for seizing hold of.

This parable marks the attitude taken to the teachings given by the Buddha, firstly that their prime objective is to be of practical use and secondly to introduce the teaching of the Two Truths. The ultimate Truth or Reality cannot be described by words and concepts and must be seen for oneself. However the path that leads to that insight can be described and forms a map to show how to get there. This truth is relative because it only describes the way to this Truth it is not the Truth itself nor is it the path itself. The Buddhist practitioner must walk this path; it is not enough just to read about it or even to believe that it works!

Thus we must always bear in mind that the teachings, even the story of the Life of the Buddha are only descriptions, symbols pointing to something beyond the words and neither must they be taken as scientific fact or even historical truths.

This is why it is futile to become bogged down in ontological or epistemological arguments over these teachings. The value of them is realised when they are used in the way they were designed to be used as a practical tool leading toward insight into the human condition.

Samana
01-12-2011, 08:45 PM
.

If one has not fully realised the Dhamma, Mayflow, then it is unwise to talk about letting it go!!

This is the actual similie of the Raft......

The Raft Simile (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252F)

"Monks, I will teach you the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak."

"As you say, lord," the monks responded to the Blessed One.

The Blessed One said: "Suppose a man were traveling along a path. He would see a great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. The thought would occur to him, 'Here is this great expanse of water, with the near shore dubious & risky, the further shore secure & free from risk, but with neither a ferryboat nor a bridge going from this shore to the other. What if I were to gather grass, twigs, branches, & leaves and, having bound them together to make a raft, were to cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with my hands & feet?'

Then the man, having gathered grass, twigs, branches, & leaves, having bound them together to make a raft, would cross over to safety on the other shore in dependence on the raft, making an effort with his hands & feet. Having crossed over to the further shore, he might think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having hoisted it on my head or carrying on my back, go wherever I like?' What do you think, monks: Would the man, in doing that, be doing what should be done with the raft?"

"No, lord."

"And what should the man do in order to be doing what should be done with the raft? There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft.

In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas."

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.022.than.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .accesstoinsight.org%252Ftipitaka%252Fmn%252Fmn.02 2.than.html)






May all beings have peace and happiness _/\_


:smile:

Mayflow
02-12-2011, 11:37 PM
Samana, All Buddha talked about was letting go and being free. He talked about ways to achieve it, but even in his human death, he said "Work out diligently your own salvation."

Also: These are the memorable words of Buddha: “Believe not because an old book is produced as an authority. Believe not because your father said [you should] believe the same. Believe not because other people like you believe it. Test everything, try everything, and then believe it, and if you find it for the good of many, give it to all.” And with these words, the Master passed away.

Samana
03-12-2011, 08:25 AM
Samana, All Buddha talked about was letting go and being free. He talked about ways to achieve it, but even in his human death, he said "Work out diligently your own salvation."

Also: These are the memorable words of Buddha: “Believe not because an old book is produced as an authority. Believe not because your father said [you should] believe the same. Believe not because other people like you believe it. Test everything, try everything, and then believe it, and if you find it for the good of many, give it to all.” And with these words, the Master passed away.

The Buddha taught the Four Noble Truths and the Noble Eightfold Path as a means to overcome Dukkha .

The quote you gave above is yet another of the inaccurate 'sayings' of the Buddha which abound on the internet, Mayflow. There weren't 'books' in his culture 2,500 years ago, which is why his teachings were memorised to begin with.

You might like to read the Kalama Sutta AN 3.65 instead:


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an03/an03.065.than.html



with kind wishes,

S.

Mayflow
03-12-2011, 05:18 PM
Samana, I have read that before. You seem to think that everything I say is not Buddha, and if you are correct, I am glad and happy to be not Buddha.