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Chrode
29-11-2011, 11:39 AM
In Wicca there is alot of sexual elements in like ritual sex and skyclaid (ritual nudity). Are children before sexual active going to worship the lord and lady?
What do you think?

earthprowler
29-11-2011, 12:30 PM
In Wicca there is alot of sexual elements in like ritual sex and skyclaid (ritual nudity). Are children before sexual active going to worship the lord and lady?
What do you think?

Skyclad (clad only by the sky) is the term that Wiccans and other pagans use to describe the state of being naked while they are performing rituals usually outside but often indoors as well. Not all neo-pagan religions embrace this practice, but many do and incorporate nudity within their religious practices. This nudity is most often non-sexualized but some pagans do also practice sexualized nude rituals. Also many pagan festivals permit non-sexualized nudity at least in certain areas but some festivals also accept sexualized nudity but that nudity is most often in an area set apart from the general festival.

From my understanding, most do not include the children at least until they are of age, but then some aren't comfortable with it even then.

norseman
29-11-2011, 02:01 PM
Chrode, you are reading from an old "hymn sheet"

Occultist
29-11-2011, 06:08 PM
I do many rituals skyclad being naked has nothing to do with sex.
If you were a Witch I would recommend you to keep your kids away from the practises of the "Great Rite" other then that I belive there fine Wicca is not a orgy waiting to happen they follow the teaching and beliefs of Gerald Gardner.
There rede would forbid hurting a child even if the child was uncomfortable nakied the true Wiccan would forbid it. If the child wants to dance around naked let him or her I was never taught naked had anything to do with sex. So I guess it depends on what your teaching your kids.

Blooms Bright
29-11-2011, 10:50 PM
As a practicing witch...I choose to wear robes for ceremonies. Otherwise, I wear regular attire. As for the Great Rite, I use my chalice and wand to represent the female and male. I honestly don't know many who perform the Great Rite as describe in the past. Many of us practice our craft as a "solitary" and I don't think we choose this path because of the sexual overtone. Wiccan,Hedge witch, pagan or cunning folk , ect... are usually earthy individuals who are in some way, shape, or form connected to the elements including Mother Earth.

I can only speak for myself and hope not to offend. We may travel different paths along our journey. I have discovered much beauty by embracing a nature based spirituality. My children also respect Mother Earth, in there own way. That is what is so amazing, there is so much learn.

I would encourage you to explore some more references before coming to a conclusion on this subject. You might be surprised : )

~As always, Bright Blessings!

Lostgirl
30-11-2011, 12:09 PM
My rituals have nothing to do with sex and they never would.

Chrode
30-11-2011, 01:43 PM
I do many rituals skyclad being naked has nothing to do with sex.
If you were a Witch I would recommend you to keep your kids away from the practises of the "Great Rite" other then that I belive there fine Wicca is not a orgy waiting to happen they follow the teaching and beliefs of Gerald Gardner.
There rede would forbid hurting a child even if the child was uncomfortable nakied the true Wiccan would forbid it. If the child wants to dance around naked let him or her I was never taught naked had anything to do with sex. So I guess it depends on what your teaching your kids.

Do you have children? What are you going to do with children when you are to a cermony?

norseman
30-11-2011, 02:19 PM
OK. I sometimes go "skyclad" especially on the moor top in a thunder storm with lightning clashing all around. Very invigorating ! :smile:

vulkus
30-11-2011, 03:58 PM
Where as I on the other hand have used sex magic for power generation in other areas.
Do you have children? What are you going to do with children when you are to a cermony? Are you confusing sex orgies with skyclad ritual?

Chrode
30-11-2011, 04:30 PM
Where as I on the other hand have used sex magic for power generation in other areas.
Are you confusing sex orgies with skyclad ritual?

I have never said that.

Wolfe of Wildwood
30-11-2011, 10:07 PM
I don't think you'll have a problem as long as you make sure any group rituals are non-sexual first. Skyclad doesn't necessarily have to be sexual, or inappropriate, since I'm asexual but it doesn't mean I can't participate in a skyclad ritual.

Triner
30-11-2011, 10:23 PM
OK. I sometimes go "skyclad" especially on the moor top in a thunder storm with lightning clashing all around. Very invigorating ! :smile:

OOooooooo, the mental image! :D

norseman
01-12-2011, 09:44 AM
Yes well, Triner, now you know where the American Werewolf in London legend came from :D:D.
[Actually, the moor in question is where the pub in the movie is - The Slaughtered Lamb aka Tan Hill Inn http://www.tanhillinn.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.tanhillinn.com%2F) ]

LadyMoondancer
01-12-2011, 12:38 PM
Do you have children? What are you going to do with children when you are to a cermony?

am I the only one who is starting to get a little wary of these questions by this person?

First he is trying to pin us down as to what we are getting out of Wicca, as tho there is nothing to be gotten out of it.

Now this. Chrode your question was answered - and then you come right back with the same thing - as tho Wiccans are bad to be skyclad in some things.

There are many PAGAN (not just Wiccan) groups that perform skyclad rituals. Some right in the middle of the afternoon. Children may or may not be present. Those that have been brought up by parents who see nothing wrong with nudity, who embrace the beauty of the human body do this. Sometimes NUDISTS are not even Pagan, or Wiccan at all. In many European countries, Sweden for one, there is no shame in the body. Many people go skinny dipping. And they are not pagan or wiccan. So WICCANS (or Pagans) don't own a copyright on skyclad. They just have a cute mystical word for nakedness: skyclad.

So getting back to your original question: "In Wicca there is alot of sexual elements in like ritual sex and skyclaid (ritual nudity). Are children before sexual active going to worship the lord and lady?"

You seem to be laboring under the false impression that being skyclad is "ritual nudity." And then seem to imply that in order to worship the lord and lady, there HAS to be some form of sexual activity. And this is where your concern for pre-sexually active children come in.

I don't know where you're getting your information from. But it seems to me you've been reading a lot of Christian propaganda that puts out there that Wiccans have sexual rituals in front of young children.

As for myself - what I do - or wear- is not your business. There is no LAW that says anybody performing a ritual MUST by skyclad. Or even to engage in ANY sexual activity. And there is no LAW that says you MUST be naked or do sex in order to worship the Lord and the Lady.

When I, or a child, behold the beauty of a sunrise, a flower, a new born infant, or the death of a loved one - THAT is worshipping the Lord and the Lady. I don't need Gardner or LaVey to tell me how.

psychoslice
02-12-2011, 12:37 AM
Any belief system given to a child is the first step in making the child stupid, let them make their own choices in spiritual matters.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 12:22 PM
Ladymoondancer

"There is no LAW that says anybody performing a ritual MUST by skyclad."

It can discuss.

The charge of the goddess says:

"and as a sign that ye be really free,
ye shall be naked in your rites;"

norseman
02-12-2011, 01:03 PM
Chrode, the difficulty with the Charge of the Goddess/God is that they have no historical or cultural significance. Written in the 1940's by Gardner and rewritten in the 1950's by Valiente and unheard of prior to that date. The Charge of the God is the later of the two. They are only significant as part of the ceremonial of wicca. Link it with the Rede and Creed as ritual chants, nothing more.
In this area, you are coming up against the wide gap between UK and US. In the UK, there was a falling away from wicca back to the Old Religion and Craft.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 01:31 PM
Chrode, the difficulty with the Charge of the Goddess/God is that they have no historical or cultural significance. Written in the 1940's by Gardner and rewritten in the 1950's by Valiente and unheard of prior to that date. The Charge of the God is the later of the two. They are only significant as part of the ceremonial of wicca. Link it with the Rede and Creed as ritual chants, nothing more.
In this area, you are coming up against the wide gap between UK and US. In the UK, there was a falling away from wicca back to the Old Religion and Craft.

The teachings of Wicca come to express in the Charges... what you se in other books are really eclectic neo-paganism and they have nothing to do with Wicca...

norseman
02-12-2011, 02:26 PM
You got that the wrong way round. What you see in wicca has got nothing to do with anything else. How could it ?
The thing that you are still refusing to accept is the fact that wicca was "manufactured" in the 20th century, it has no history or heritage before that date apart from the bits and pieces "borrowed" from elsewhere. So what you read in Gardner, and co is irrelevant !
This is not neo-paganism but the real deal, well documented in properly researched, peer reviewed academic sources.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 02:45 PM
You got that the wrong way round. What you see in wicca has got nothing to do with anything else. How could it ?
The thing that you are still refusing to accept is the fact that wicca was "manufactured" in the 20th century, it has no history or heritage before that date apart from the bits and pieces "borrowed" from elsewhere. So what you read in Gardner, and co is irrelevant !
This is not neo-paganism but the real deal, well documented in properly researched, peer reviewed academic sources.

What do you talking about...?

LadyMoondancer
02-12-2011, 04:13 PM
What do you talking about...?

What he is saying, and what he has said over and over and you just are NOT accepting - is that WICCA is a brand-new religion, INVENTED by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's, just like St. Paul INVENTED xianity, which later got validated by Constantine at the Council of Nicea.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE MAN MADE!

Gardner, Doreen Valiente, Janet + Stewar Farrar, Alexander Sanders - all had a hand in INVENTING Wicca and Modern Witchcraft. You really need to understand that. In America, in the 1970's we had Starhawk, Selena Fox, Szusanna Budapest, Laurie Cabot. Then we had Scott Cunningham and now we have Christopher Penzcak. All these people had a hand in shaping Wicca the way it is today.

As to your statement "The teachings of Wicca come to express in the Charges... what you se in other books are really eclectic neo-paganism and they have nothing to do with Wicca..." - well you know - Wicca as a religion is EVOLVING, just as xianity has evolved over the years (even the Catholics just this past Sunday, Nov.27 changed the words of the Mass).

So what are YOU saying Chrode? Are you saying that to be Wiccan, I MUST adhere to the Charge? Which says I MUST be skyclad? in 20 degrees in six feet of snow?

Are you that blind that you take EVERYTHING at it's face value? You are spouting Gardnerisms as tho Gardner was god and he was not. You are going by his book and saying his book is the be-all and end-all of Wicca, yet say witchcraft canNOT be learned from a book. I think you need to pay attention to what you are saying.

And also learn a lesson from something that happened some 30 years in Guyana from a guy named Jones. Then do some more research and some more research. Better check out Isaac Bonewit's Cult Evaluation Form while you're at it.

As for eclectic Neo-Paganism, and Neo-Wicca, yes, that is what is happening in England (UK) and America (US). As Norseman said, in the UK the movement is BACK to the old indiginant folk religions that Gardner BASED Wicca on. In America, it is also evolving.

The Charge was written relatively a short time ago by another human being and like I said, I'm not going skyclad when it's cold. ALL religions evolve with the times and geographical locations and needs. And advances in medical and social norms.

In the Old Testament, in the book of Leviticus, I believe, is a whole set of hygenic LAWS, pertaining to women. Today, with items that can be bought even in supermarkets, women no longer need adhere to those LAWS.

When any religion starts handing down LAWS, it sets up the path that anyone who does not adhere to those laws, are wrong, lesser than those who do subscribe to those laws, and that's how religious wars get started.

Don't forget Chrode - we're all on the same path - to find the Divine, whether we are skyclad, Wicca, Neo-Pagan or whatever.

one more thing Chrode - who initiated Gardner? If only another wiccan can initiate a wiccan, where did the first wiccan come from? If what you're saying - about LAWS that a wiccan cannot initiate himself, then did Gardner initiate himself? There could not have been another wiccan around, because who intitiated that one? Gardner? But he could not have, because he was not intitated yet, and the LAW of Wicca says no self-initiiation. So Gardner in his own book and words and self-made LAWS, negates his own words there.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 04:55 PM
What he is saying, and what he has said over and over and you just are NOT accepting - is that WICCA is a brand-new religion, INVENTED by Gerald Gardner in the 1950's, just like St. Paul INVENTED xianity, which later got validated by Constantine at the Council of Nicea.

ALL RELIGIONS ARE MAN MADE!

Gardner, Doreen Valiente, Janet + Stewar Farrar, Alexander Sanders - all had a hand in INVENTING Wicca and Modern Witchcraft. You really need to understand that. In America, in the 1970's we had Starhawk, Selena Fox, Szusanna Budapest, Laurie Cabot. Then we had Scott Cunningham and now we have Christopher Penzcak. All these people had a hand in shaping Wicca the way it is today.

As to your statement "The teachings of Wicca come to express in the Charges... what you se in other books are really eclectic neo-paganism and they have nothing to do with Wicca..." - well you know - Wicca as a religion is EVOLVING, just as xianity has evolved over the years (even the Catholics just this past Sunday, Nov.27 changed the words of the Mass).

So what are YOU saying Chrode? Are you saying that to be Wiccan, I MUST adhere to the Charge? Which says I MUST be skyclad? in 20 degrees in six feet of snow?

Are you that blind that you take EVERYTHING at it's face value? You are spouting Gardnerisms as tho Gardner was god and he was not. You are going by his book and saying his book is the be-all and end-all of Wicca, yet say witchcraft canNOT be learned from a book. I think you need to pay attention to what you are saying.

And also learn a lesson from something that happened some 30 years in Guyana from a guy named Jones. Then do some more research and some more research. Better check out Isaac Bonewit's Cult Evaluation Form while you're at it.

As for eclectic Neo-Paganism, and Neo-Wicca, yes, that is what is happening in England (UK) and America (US). As Norseman said, in the UK the movement is BACK to the old indiginant folk religions that Gardner BASED Wicca on. In America, it is also evolving.

The Charge was written relatively a short time ago by another human being and like I said, I'm not going skyclad when it's cold. ALL religions evolve with the times and geographical locations and needs. And advances in medical and social norms.

In the Old Testament, in the book of Leviticus, I believe, is a whole set of hygenic LAWS, pertaining to women. Today, with items that can be bought even in supermarkets, women no longer need adhere to those LAWS.

When any religion starts handing down LAWS, it sets up the path that anyone who does not adhere to those laws, are wrong, lesser than those who do subscribe to those laws, and that's how religious wars get started.

Don't forget Chrode - we're all on the same path - to find the Divine, whether we are skyclad, Wicca, Neo-Pagan or whatever.

one more thing Chrode - who initiated Gardner? If only another wiccan can initiate a wiccan, where did the first wiccan come from? If what you're saying - about LAWS that a wiccan cannot initiate himself, then did Gardner initiate himself? There could not have been another wiccan around, because who intitiated that one? Gardner? But he could not have, because he was not intitated yet, and the LAW of Wicca says no self-initiiation. So Gardner in his own book and words and self-made LAWS, negates his own words there.

I agree that Wicca is a new religion but you can't just change a religion what YOU want it to be. Gerald Gardner "created" Wicca therefor it is HES religion and also HES teachings! And yes to become a wiccan you have to believe in the Charges because they are the source to wiccan teaching and practice like a christian believe in the bible and muslim in the quran. It is also therefore you can become a wiccan without initating. Before The Charges came out to the public Wicca was an initatory religion. It is not more BECAUSE of the Charges but still you have to be initated to learn witchcraft or become a preist/preistess.

I understand skyclaid as something you only have to do when you perform witchcraft (in the coven).

You say that Wicca is man maded? Can you prove that? I believe the Charges to be the words of the lord and lady through drawing down the moon.

I don't see Gardner as a god but i see him as the first person in the history who call HIMSELF a witch. He said that he was initated in new forrest coven but no one know how old this coven was. So who initiated the first witch? I believe it to be the Goddess herself.

norseman
02-12-2011, 05:59 PM
"Many of the rituals that Coven Wiccans currently use are lifted almost verbatim from Golden Dawn, Freemasonry, Rosicrucianism and Qabala. Coven Wicca seems to be on it's way out, many Wiccans nowadays following a much simplified Book of Shadows published by many authors today and the wisdom is greatly watered down from Gardner's original. Very few Wiccans nowadays celebrate skyclad, as is stated in the Charge of the Goddess, in fact the Charge itself has lessened in importance nowadays."

As I said "manufactured". The above from an ex-HPS who dropped out because of all the pointless ritual and ceremonial.

norseman
02-12-2011, 06:02 PM
Also, it is important that while Gardner was involved with wicca, he was also involved with Druidry, the Rosicrucians, the Celtic Christian church. To me that sounds like someone thrashing about to make a name for himself.

Occultist
02-12-2011, 06:23 PM
Do you have children? What are you going to do with children when you are to a cermony?
children are grown but they have went skyclad before LOL

Occultist
02-12-2011, 06:25 PM
As a practicing witch...I choose to wear robes for ceremonies. Otherwise, I wear regular attire. As for the Great Rite, I use my chalice and wand to represent the female and male. I honestly don't know many who perform the Great Rite as describe in the past. Many of us practice our craft as a "solitary" and I don't think we choose this path because of the sexual overtone. Wiccan,Hedge witch, pagan or cunning folk , ect... are usually earthy individuals who are in some way, shape, or form connected to the elements including Mother Earth.

I can only speak for myself and hope not to offend. We may travel different paths along our journey. I have discovered much beauty by embracing a nature based spirituality. My children also respect Mother Earth, in there own way. That is what is so amazing, there is so much learn.

I would encourage you to explore some more references before coming to a conclusion on this subject. You might be surprised : )

~As always, Bright Blessings!
Great Rite is still practiced by some covens yes. No many of them who practise it doesnt for the sexual aspects but I believe we are human and some do. has nothing to do with the ritual itself I know a sister who just went through the Great Rite like 2 weeks ago LOL. so no its still practised.

LadyMoondancer
02-12-2011, 08:30 PM
well Chrode, you seem to be the authority in Gardnerian Wicca.

I'm just wondering - why haven't you found your answers in his book.

And your arguement that we cannot change a religion does not take into account what I said about the Old Testament. - Many things in it do not relate to modern 21st century life.

Look around you - religions are changing all the time. Even Islam.

Occultist
02-12-2011, 08:55 PM
I agree that Wicca is a new religion but you can't just change a religion what YOU want it to be. Gerald Gardner "created" Wicca therefor it is HES religion and also HES teachings! And yes to become a wiccan you have to believe in the Charges because they are the source to wiccan teaching and practice like a christian believe in the bible and muslim in the quran. It is also therefore you can become a wiccan without initating. Before The Charges came out to the public Wicca was an initatory religion. It is not more BECAUSE of the Charges but still you have to be initated to learn witchcraft or become a preist/preistess.

I understand skyclaid as something you only have to do when you perform witchcraft (in the coven).

You say that Wicca is man maded? Can you prove that? I believe the Charges to be the words of the lord and lady through drawing down the moon.

I don't see Gardner as a god but i see him as the first person in the history who call HIMSELF a witch. He said that he was initated in new forrest coven but no one know how old this coven was. So who initiated the first witch? I believe it to be the Goddess herself.

Wrong anyone can go skyclad many Witches Wiccans Solitarys and others have went skyclad during rituals and gatherings. I dont know where your getting your info on skyclads and Great Rite? I mean this is weird..
I personally believe Wicca was a man made source of a way of old. Like I believe God never wrote the bible. Gerald Gardner might have started it but look where it went?. there are no fine lines through some wiccans and Witches. Gardner just wrote what he believed and the way he worshipped then added a rede because in Witchcraft it is Intent and Purpose and Gerald thought that was a huge loop hole. he wanted to close so do ye harm to none. Ours is not so black and white and right and wrong. I think you have alot of misconceptions about certain things and just went for it. People can take one mans thoughts and add to it why cant they? does that take away from what Gerald wrote? no or the movment he has to this day nope. So in a way he was blessed.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 09:05 PM
well Chrode, you seem to be the authority in Gardnerian Wicca.

I'm just wondering - why haven't you found your answers in his book.

And your arguement that we cannot change a religion does not take into account what I said about the Old Testament. - Many things in it do not relate to modern 21st century life.

Look around you - religions are changing all the time. Even Islam.

What are you talking about??

Religions don't changing. It is people who interprate it as it can work in modern society.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 09:13 PM
Wrong anyone can go skyclad many Witches Wiccans Solitarys and others have went skyclad during rituals and gatherings. I dont know where your getting your info on skyclads and Great Rite? I mean this is weird..
I personally believe Wicca was a man made source of a way of old. Like I believe God never wrote the bible. Gerald Gardner might have started it but look where it went?. there are no fine lines through some wiccans and Witches. Gardner just wrote what he believed and the way he worshipped then added a rede because in Witchcraft it is Intent and Purpose and Gerald thought that was a huge loop hole. he wanted to close so do ye harm to none. Ours is not so black and white and right and wrong. I think you have alot of misconceptions about certain things and just went for it. People can take one mans thoughts and add to it why cant they? does that take away from what Gerald wrote? no or the movment he has to this day nope. So in a way he was blessed.

I understand it in that way that skyclaid is something you only have to do when you are in a coven. You don't have to perform skyclaid when you worship the lord and lady solitary.

The charge of the goddess say:

"There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;
to these will I teach things that are yet unknown.
And ye shall be free from slavery;
and as a sign that ye be really free,"

I don't take it out of context.
What do you think i misunderstand?

Occultist
02-12-2011, 09:16 PM
So Jesus invented
1 Catholicism
1.1 Catholic Church
1.1.1 The Latin Rite1.1.2 Eastern Catholic Churches
1.2 Other churches
1.2.1 Independent (self-identified as Catholic)
2 Eastern Orthodoxy
2.1 Eastern Orthodox Church
2.2 Other churches
3 Oriental Orthodoxy
4 Church of the East
5 Protestantism
5.1 Pre-Lutheran Protestants
5.2 Lutheranism
5.3 Anglicanism
5.3.1 Anglican Communion5.3.2 Other Anglican Churches
5.4 Reformed Churches
5.5 Presbyterianism
5.6 Congregationalist Churches
5.7 Anabaptists
5.8 Brethren
5.9 Methodists
5.10 Pietists and Holiness Churches
5.11 Baptists
5.11.1 Spiritual Baptists
5.12 Apostolic Churches – Irvingites
5.13 Pentecostalism
5.14 Charismatics
5.14.1 Neo-Charismatic Churches
5.15 African Initiated Churches
5.16 United and uniting churches
5.17 Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
5.18 Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement
5.19 Southcottites
5.20 Millerites and comparable groups
5.20.1 Sabbath-Keeping Churches, Adventist5.20.2 Sabbath-Keeping Churches, Non-Adventist5.20.3 Sunday Adventists5.20.4 Sacred Name Groups
5.21 British-Israelism
5.22 Miscellaneous/Other
5.23 Christian Revival Church
6 Latter Day Saints
6.1 Original denomination
6.2 "Prairie Saint" denominations
6.3 Rocky Mountains denominations
6.4 Other denominations
7 Nontrinitarian groups
7.1 Oneness Pentecostalism
7.2 Unitarianism and Universalism
7.3 Bible Student groups
7.4 Swedenborgianism
7.5 Other non-Trinitarians
8 New Thought
9 Messianic Judaism / Jewish Christians
10 Esoteric Christianity
11 Syncretistic religions incorporating elements of Christianity
12 peoples church
13 upside down church
I know theres more I cant think of anymore atm. but these are branches and all started out different and changed over time. so will Wicca I see it moving more towards witchcraft as a matter of fact.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 09:22 PM
So Jesus invented
1 Catholicism
1.1 Catholic Church
1.1.1 The Latin Rite1.1.2 Eastern Catholic Churches
1.2 Other churches
1.2.1 Independent (self-identified as Catholic)
2 Eastern Orthodoxy
2.1 Eastern Orthodox Church
2.2 Other churches
3 Oriental Orthodoxy
4 Church of the East
5 Protestantism
5.1 Pre-Lutheran Protestants
5.2 Lutheranism
5.3 Anglicanism
5.3.1 Anglican Communion5.3.2 Other Anglican Churches
5.4 Reformed Churches
5.5 Presbyterianism
5.6 Congregationalist Churches
5.7 Anabaptists
5.8 Brethren
5.9 Methodists
5.10 Pietists and Holiness Churches
5.11 Baptists
5.11.1 Spiritual Baptists
5.12 Apostolic Churches – Irvingites
5.13 Pentecostalism
5.14 Charismatics
5.14.1 Neo-Charismatic Churches
5.15 African Initiated Churches
5.16 United and uniting churches
5.17 Religious Society of Friends (Quakers)
5.18 Stone-Campbell Restoration Movement
5.19 Southcottites
5.20 Millerites and comparable groups
5.20.1 Sabbath-Keeping Churches, Adventist5.20.2 Sabbath-Keeping Churches, Non-Adventist5.20.3 Sunday Adventists5.20.4 Sacred Name Groups
5.21 British-Israelism
5.22 Miscellaneous/Other
5.23 Christian Revival Church
6 Latter Day Saints
6.1 Original denomination
6.2 "Prairie Saint" denominations
6.3 Rocky Mountains denominations
6.4 Other denominations
7 Nontrinitarian groups
7.1 Oneness Pentecostalism
7.2 Unitarianism and Universalism
7.3 Bible Student groups
7.4 Swedenborgianism
7.5 Other non-Trinitarians
8 New Thought
9 Messianic Judaism / Jewish Christians
10 Esoteric Christianity
11 Syncretistic religions incorporating elements of Christianity
12 peoples church
13 upside down church
I know theres more I cant think of anymore atm. but these are branches and all started out different and changed over time. so will Wicca I see it moving more towards witchcraft as a matter of fact.

And do we agree that they all based on interprating the bible?

Occultist
02-12-2011, 09:28 PM
Of course to there own liking and Wicca will do the same there will be hardcore Wiccans then more leaning towards Witchcraft and castings.
interpretation is what we do as humans. we see through our eyes then our minds interprets what we see so we understand it. But much manipulation through Christianity and its off shoots. I dont think Gerald Gardners teachings will ever become fear based.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 09:36 PM
Of course to there own liking and Wicca will do the same there will be hardcore Wiccans then more leaning towards Witchcraft and castings.
interpretation is what we do as humans. we see through our eyes then our minds interprets what we see so we understand it. But much manipulation through Christianity and its off shoots. I dont think Gerald Gardners teachings will ever become fear based.

So what is you point?
Btw you never answed my question. What do you think i misunderstand about skyclaid?

Wolfe of Wildwood
03-12-2011, 01:23 AM
I agree that Wicca is a new religion but you can't just change a religion what YOU want it to be. Gerald Gardner "created" Wicca therefor it is HES religion and also HES teachings! And yes to become a wiccan you have to believe in the Charges because they are the source to wiccan teaching and practice like a christian believe in the bible and muslim in the quran. It is also therefore you can become a wiccan without initating. Before The Charges came out to the public Wicca was an initatory religion. It is not more BECAUSE of the Charges but still you have to be initated to learn witchcraft or become a preist/preistess.

I understand skyclaid as something you only have to do when you perform witchcraft (in the coven).

You say that Wicca is man maded? Can you prove that? I believe the Charges to be the words of the lord and lady through drawing down the moon.

I don't see Gardner as a god but i see him as the first person in the history who call HIMSELF a witch. He said that he was initated in new forrest coven but no one know how old this coven was. So who initiated the first witch? I believe it to be the Goddess herself.
Gardner might have coined the term "wiccan" but he did not create the religion. We may have called it by different names in the past, or perhaps by no name at all, but that doesn't change what it is. People have practiced wiccan longer than the name has existed, and to say that wiccan didn't exist before Gardner created the term is like saying that someone didn't exist before they changed their name.

"You can call a tiger a kitten, but it won't stop it from eating you." - Brittany Irwin

Kristine
03-12-2011, 02:45 AM
What are you talking about??

Religions don't changing. It is people who interprate it as it can work in modern society.
Of course a religion can change. Last Sunday the Catholics changed the words in some of their rights (for lack of a better term) as they decided it was a better translation. The religion is beginning to change. Now instead of worshiping god there worshiping the spirit. when it began they only had one “true” god. A month a go I heard many people say “the lord Jesus Christ”, while more said father, son, holey spirit. (which by the way means there worshiping 3 things when the pagans were wrong for worshiping more than one thing)
Sorry, but I kind of wanted the opportunity to say that since last week. It was so cool to say.
I have never met anyone that practiced naked, and Wicca has been referred to as American witch craft and Leland was one of its founders.
I think the main thing is no one knows how much was written on fact or for the sake of selling a book.
Thank you for presenting me the opportunity to say the first paragraph, I hope you find your answer.

Kristine
03-12-2011, 02:48 AM
sorry, i was tired, think the name should have been gardner.

Alchymist
03-12-2011, 04:02 AM
It is also therefore you can become a wiccan without initating. Before The Charges came out to the public Wicca was an initatory religion. It is not more BECAUSE of the Charges but still you have to be initated to learn witchcraft or become a preist/preistess.


Chrode, as far as I can tell from your tortured syntax, what you have said there is a flat-out contradiction.

"Skyclad" I understand, but what is "skyclaid"? I've been a Witch for almost 50 years and I've never heard of it.

Alchymist

norseman
03-12-2011, 07:35 AM
"Wicca has been referred to as American witch craft"

Kristine, wicca is a "new" version of British Traditional Witchcraft, "invented" by Gerald Gardner [British] by combining bits and pieces from various other orders around a core of Craft.
To set the scene, the last of the Witchcraft Laws had been repealed and Gardner wished to popularise the Old Ways to appeal to a larger audience. But he also wished to get round the suspicions surrounding Witchcraft in many people's minds. So, Voila !, a "new" faith, which in reality was an old faith repackaged - think Coca Cola with a new label :D The "faith" aspects of Wicca are based on interests held by Gardner plus Nature/Fertility faiths giving a perfectly reasonable belief system - nothing wrong with that. Craft was still included in a revised form and is the part of wicca which many followers tend to downplay.

Chrode
03-12-2011, 11:48 AM
Gardner might have coined the term "wiccan" but he did not create the religion. We may have called it by different names in the past, or perhaps by no name at all, but that doesn't change what it is. People have practiced wiccan longer than the name has existed, and to say that wiccan didn't exist before Gardner created the term is like saying that someone didn't exist before they changed their name.

"You can call a tiger a kitten, but it won't stop it from eating you." - Brittany Irwin

It have nothing to do what i'm saying...

Chrode
03-12-2011, 11:59 AM
Of course a religion can change. Last Sunday the Catholics changed the words in some of their rights (for lack of a better term) as they decided it was a better translation. The religion is beginning to change. Now instead of worshiping god there worshiping the spirit. when it began they only had one “true” god. A month a go I heard many people say “the lord Jesus Christ”, while more said father, son, holey spirit. (which by the way means there worshiping 3 things when the pagans were wrong for worshiping more than one thing)
Sorry, but I kind of wanted the opportunity to say that since last week. It was so cool to say.
I have never met anyone that practiced naked, and Wicca has been referred to as American witch craft and Leland was one of its founders.
I think the main thing is no one knows how much was written on fact or for the sake of selling a book.
Thank you for presenting me the opportunity to say the first paragraph, I hope you find your answer.

The bible is not the words of God but an interprating of what Jesus said. Btw Jesus was not a God and the holy spirit is an aspects of God.
The quran is the words of God and it have never been change but there are muslims who interprating it so it can work with the modern society. Its the same with Wicca. The Charges have not been changed so but there is books who interprating them. The Charges is the word of the goddess and god.

Chrode
03-12-2011, 12:01 PM
Chrode, as far as I can tell from your tortured syntax, what you have said there is a flat-out contradiction.

"Skyclad" I understand, but what is "skyclaid"? I've been a Witch for almost 50 years and I've never heard of it.

Alchymist

Skyclaid is ritual nudity.

cleargemstone
03-12-2011, 12:12 PM
In Wicca there is alot of sexual elements in like ritual sex and skyclaid (ritual nudity). Are children before sexual active going to worship the lord and lady?
What do you think?

I feel that if i had to get naked to profrom a ritual, i would be leaving without even taken my shoes off.............There is no reason in my mind why anyone should get naked, and if they do my mind starts shouting CULT!

As for children, children are innocent and should never be naked except for bath time and change of clothes...............I am not ignorant, i am also not stupid and hope that others reading this arn't either!:icon_eek:

Alchymist
03-12-2011, 04:13 PM
Skyclaid is ritual nudity.

Nope. Skyclad is ritual nudity. Skyclaid is completely meaningless.

Alchymist

Chrode
03-12-2011, 05:36 PM
Nope. Skyclad is ritual nudity. Skyclaid is completely meaningless.

Alchymist

Is also what i'm saying.
I spelled it wrong.

vulkus
03-12-2011, 05:51 PM
I understand it in that way that skyclaid is something you only have to do when you are in a coven. You don't have to perform skyclaid when you worship the lord and lady solitary.

The charge of the goddess say:

"There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;
to these will I teach things that are yet unknown.
And ye shall be free from slavery;
and as a sign that ye be really free,"

I don't take it out of context.
What do you think i misunderstand?
No you didn't take it out of context but you did omit a line or two because it served your purpose.

There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;
to these will I teach things that are yet unknown.
And ye shall be free from slavery;
and as a sign that ye be really free,
ye shall be naked in your rites;
and ye shall dance, sing, feast,
make music and love,
all in my praise.

vulkus
03-12-2011, 06:08 PM
Origin: 1970–75; < Old English wicca (male) sorcerer ( Middle English wicche, modern dial. witch ); see witch.
Word origin:

Wicca

An O.E. masc. noun meaning "male witch, wizard, soothsayer, sorcerer, magician;" see witch. Use of the word in modern contexts traces to English folklorist Gerald Gardner (1884-1964), who is said to have joined circa 1939 an occult group in New Forest, Hampshire, England,

for which he claimed an unbroken tradition to medieval times. Gardner seems to have first used it in print in 1954, in his book "Witchcraft Today" (e.g.: "Witches were the Wica or wise people, with herbal knowledge and a working occult teaching usually used for good ...."). In published and unpublished material, he apparently only ever used the word as a mass noun referring to adherents of the practice and not as the name of the practice itself. Some of his followers continue to use it in this sense. According to Gardner's book "The Meaning of Witchcraft" (1959), the word, as used in the initiation ceremony, played a key role in his experience:
Taken from http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/wicca

Chrode
03-12-2011, 07:03 PM
No you didn't take it out of context but you did omit a line or two because it served your purpose.

It was a mistake...
I will quote the full context.

"then shall ye assemble in some secret place
and adore the spirit of me,
who am Queen of all the witches."

"There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;
to these will I teach things that are yet unknown.
And ye shall be free from slavery;
and as a sign that ye be really free,
ye shall be naked in your rites; "

I interprate it therefor that it is only the witches there shall be naked in their rituals they perform together.

Lostgirl
03-12-2011, 07:23 PM
You could interpret that in another way....
I for one wouldnt see a need to be naked and would more than likely feel quite uncomfortable, however i see that as not hiding anything, no secrets, she knows all sort of thing.

Alchymist
03-12-2011, 08:10 PM
Chrode, it seems I owe you an apology, and I offer it unreservedly. I did not know you are from Denmark and that English is not your first language.

Unfortunately there are many, on the various forums I belong to, whose first language is English but who write as if they care nothing for spelling, syntax, grammar or punctuation - or even communication - and, quite without good reason, I suppose I associated you with this group - which you clearly don't belong to.

Once again, my apologies,

Alchymist

Chrode
03-12-2011, 08:22 PM
Chrode, it seems I owe you an apology, and I offer it unreservedly. I did not know you are from Denmark and that English is not your first language.

Unfortunately there are many, on the various forums I belong to, whose first language is English but who write as if they care nothing for spelling, syntax, grammar or punctuation - or even communication - and, quite without good reason, I suppose I associated you with this group - which you clearly don't belong to.

Once again, my apologies,

Alchymist

Thats okay.. hmm did i said i was from Denmark?

Silvergirl
03-12-2011, 08:32 PM
You could interpret that in another way....
I for one wouldnt see a need to be naked and would more than likely feel quite uncomfortable, however i see that as not hiding anything, no secrets, she knows all sort of thing.

As I haven't been following this thread except a peek in from time to time, I'm thinking the question is did it necessarily mean naked literally? Maybe it means an attitudinal thing as opposed to literally being without clothes....hiding nothing, in heart & mind?

Lostgirl
03-12-2011, 08:34 PM
As I haven't been following this thread except a peek in from time to time, I'm thinking the question is did it necessarily mean naked literally? Maybe it means an attitudinal thing as opposed to literally being without clothes....hiding nothing, in heart & mind?

That would make sense. I too have only been popping my head in from time to time....i might have got muddled.

Occultist
04-12-2011, 12:31 AM
Skyclad means no clothing it is optional but is practised my children did it and it wasnt a big deal. Some people connect the naked body with something dirty or to be ashaimed of. Those people should not have there children go skyclad.

Triner
04-12-2011, 01:51 AM
Thats okay.. hmm did i said i was from Denmark?

Yes... Right here (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=397176&postcount=114)

I've been lurking in several of these threads for a bit. Fascinating discussion.

Wolfe of Wildwood
04-12-2011, 01:53 AM
Yes... Right here (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=397176&postcount=114)

I've been lurking in several of these threads for a bit. Fascinating discussion.
As have I, though I fear my last post may have been a bit rant-ish.

Triner
04-12-2011, 02:02 AM
As have I, though I fear my last post may have been a bit rant-ish.

Don't be hard on yourself... I also lurk in the Christian section. The continual civility of the discussions here in this section, even when people disagree, put many discussions in the Christian section to shame.:smile:

Occultist
04-12-2011, 02:17 AM
Gardner might have coined the term "wiccan" but he did not create the religion. We may have called it by different names in the past, or perhaps by no name at all, but that doesn't change what it is. People have practiced wiccan longer than the name has existed, and to say that wiccan didn't exist before Gardner created the term is like saying that someone didn't exist before they changed their name.

"You can call a tiger a kitten, but it won't stop it from eating you." - Brittany Irwin
this is true but being a pagan I can tell you its very diffacult if you arent born into it to get the information your seeking Gardner put together Rede there wasnt a Rede before. He also taught rituals,Rites ways to celebrate "WIccan Wheel" of the years and seasons and holidays all in one place. By doing this he Created Wicca but no he never created all the rituals or lore he just made it accessible and gave it a balanced law.

vulkus
07-12-2011, 11:22 AM
It was a mistake...
I will quote the full context.

"then shall ye assemble in some secret place
and adore the spirit of me,
who am Queen of all the witches."

"There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;
to these will I teach things that are yet unknown.
And ye shall be free from slavery;
and as a sign that ye be really free,
ye shall be naked in your rites; "

I interprate it therefor that it is only the witches there shall be naked in their rituals they perform together.
ye who are fain to learn all sorceryIsn't just about witches. Maybe rather than just reading it and making your own interpretation of it, you actually take the time to understand it.

Time
07-12-2011, 11:44 AM
In Wicca there is alot of sexual elements in like ritual sex and skyclaid (ritual nudity). Are children before sexual active going to worship the lord and lady?
What do you think?

All I have to say, is that id rather my kid learn about sex, nudity, and respect fo rboth, then have my kid feared into believing a book that actually has no binding on todays society.

Wicca doesnt seem to promote violence or contradictions either IMO.

Wicked Willow
07-12-2011, 12:39 PM
Nudity does not automatically carry sexual connotations.

As for combining sex and spirituality: naturally, I would not let children participate in anything sexual, but our culture goes to ludicrous lengths when it comes to somehow shielding children from all knowledge of how procreation works. This negative fixation is quite absurd, especially considering that most people throughout history shared a single room with the whole family, undoubtedly not making a big deal out of one of the most natural aspects of their lives.

Time
07-12-2011, 12:57 PM
Nudity does not automatically carry sexual connotations.

As for combining sex and spirituality: naturally, I would not let children participate in anything sexual, but our culture goes to ludicrous lengths when it comes to somehow shielding children from all knowledge of how procreation works. This negative fixation is quite absurd, especially considering that most people throughout history shared a single room with the whole family, undoubtedly not making a big deal out of one of the most natural aspects of their lives.

Exactly. We need to move away from the catholic " sex is only for after marrige, other wise its a dirty sin" attitude.

Lynn
20-12-2011, 08:04 PM
Any belief system given to a child is the first step in making the child stupid, let them make their own choices in spiritual matters.


Hello


While I would not go to use the term "Stupid" I feel that children should be free in spirit to find what fits to them....and have the open upbringing to explore many a religion and beleif. Being forced down the family path of religion I rebelled and at one point almost took me life....

As long as what me kids want to explore does not cross the lines to "cult" status I would embrace it....as long as I knew about it...and could keep watch on what went on.

When it comes to nudity WHY do we so turn that into things sexual. It does not have to be all aobut sex....does it. We come in naked and are rushed off and diapered and dressed.

There are many a ritual I took place in that I was NUDE in and it was never a sexual experience, nor is a walk on a nude beach....if ye are there for that reason then one is there for the WRONG reason.


Lynn

Occultist
20-12-2011, 09:18 PM
LOL No person has ever been told you "HAVE TO GO SKYCLAD" never ever ever and I know lots of covens in the states and out so if you can show me proof of a coven that you Have to go skyclad I would be greatful.
Also yes I kow many Wiccans who go Skyclad and are solitary. There is no right or wrong way what you think a Goddess cares if your naked or not? Why cant Solitarys in your point of view go Skyclad?
I think the words really be free should cover naked so many people are ashaimed of there own bodys and are scared to even walk through there homes naked untill you are free of thinking naked as a sexual thing you will never be free to walk skyclad. Do I go Skyclad when I am not in my coven away yes.. Will I go Skyclad with a mate to preform rituals of my or his choosing of course. Winter soltice I will be Skyclad to bare my soul and to remember the darkest day is just before the time its starts getting a little brighter longer. Winter soltice to me is a Goodbye of one year and a welcoming of the next will I be cold yes... Will I be in snow LOL yes will I be skyclad yes. But that is who I am.. But nowhere and nobody I have ever met witch or wiccan or both has ever said have to in anything.

Occultist
20-12-2011, 09:20 PM
Hello


While I would not go to use the term "Stupid" I feel that children should be free in spirit to find what fits to them....and have the open upbringing to explore many a religion and beleif. Being forced down the family path of religion I rebelled and at one point almost took me life....

As long as what me kids want to explore does not cross the lines to "cult" status I would embrace it....as long as I knew about it...and could keep watch on what went on.

When it comes to nudity WHY do we so turn that into things sexual. It does not have to be all aobut sex....does it. We come in naked and are rushed off and diapered and dressed.

There are many a ritual I took place in that I was NUDE in and it was never a sexual experience, nor is a walk on a nude beach....if ye are there for that reason then one is there for the WRONG reason.


Lynn
Well spoken Lynn.. and Happy holidays.