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Chrode
25-11-2011, 07:01 PM
I have always believe that the goddess and god have dark sides also so the give a lesson to those who not worship them but i feel alone with this opinion.
What do you think? What gives Wicca you?

Medium_Laura
25-11-2011, 07:05 PM
It gives me nothing. Wicca is my religion. What I choose to follow. So what does any religion give you? A place to belong?

There are no "promises" of things in Wicca. You follow it because you agree with the teachings.

Chrode
25-11-2011, 07:12 PM
It gives me nothing. Wicca is my religion. What I choose to follow. So what does any religion give you? A place to belong?

There are no "promises" of things in Wicca. You follow it because you agree with the teachings.

In the other religions there is a reward or fear for punishment. Hell in the abrahamic religions and nirvana in the Buddhism and Hinduism. Eternal reinkarnation is what Wicca teach about but why worship the God and Goddess?

Medium_Laura
25-11-2011, 08:23 PM
Well not Wicca.. There is no fear at all in it. Harm thee none, do what thee will.

You probably need to pick up some books on Wicca. You would be surprised :)

We feel that God/Goddess is our deity because it takes 2 to create life. But.. The Lord and the Lady come from "The One" our Universal Divine.

There is no punishment, no flames, no hell, nothing to fear :)

Chrode
26-11-2011, 05:26 AM
Well not Wicca.. There is no fear at all in it. Harm thee none, do what thee will.

You probably need to pick up some books on Wicca. You would be surprised :)

We feel that God/Goddess is our deity because it takes 2 to create life. But.. The Lord and the Lady come from "The One" our Universal Divine.

There is no punishment, no flames, no hell, nothing to fear :)

You don't answer my question. Why worship the Lord and Lady?

norseman
26-11-2011, 07:53 AM
In worshipping The Lord and The Lady, you are honouring the two Prime Principles of the Universe - call them Lord and Lady or Yin and Yang if you wish. Many wiccans use deities from various pantheons but, when you get right down to it, these are just facets of Lord and Lady - think of them as a shorthand form :smile:
I am not a follower of wicca, preferring the primitive root that wicca came from. I honour Mother Earth and the Powers of the Four Elements.

Skins_Princess
26-11-2011, 09:53 AM
As far as the idea of damnation. That's in all religions and paths in some ways. In Wicca for example you may reincarnate or live in the Summerlands (as reward). And part of the purpose of reincarnation is getting rewards or punishments based on your actions in your past life. So it's not the same as in Abrahamic tradition where you suffer torment enternally in hell for a sin, but you will experience some type of suffering for bad deeds.

Chrode
26-11-2011, 10:48 AM
In worshipping The Lord and The Lady, you are honouring the two Prime Principles of the Universe - call them Lord and Lady or Yin and Yang if you wish. Many wiccans use deities from various pantheons but, when you get right down to it, these are just facets of Lord and Lady - think of them as a shorthand form :smile:
I am not a follower of wicca, preferring the primitive root that wicca came from. I honour Mother Earth and the Powers of the Four Elements.

I know what Wicca is about but my question is what is the reward for worshipping the lord and lady? It is an avoiding for a punishment in the afterlife?
It is not mention in the charge of the goddess and the charge of the god.

LadyMoondancer
26-11-2011, 11:39 AM
I know what Wicca is about but my question is what is the reward for worshipping the lord and lady? It is an avoiding for a punishment in the afterlife?
It is not mention in the charge of the goddess and the charge of the god.

Reinarnation and karma means that we all have lessons to learn - and in each incarnation, we either learn them, or we get stuck re-living the same problems.

What does this have to do with worshipping the Lord and the Lady? - as my signature reads - a quote from Carl Sagan - "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself."

In his book and tv series Cosmos, Sagan put forth that the stars and galaxies evolved, until life came into being - until as Sagan said "it achieved consciousness."

I believe that the creation of the universe was done by The Goddess, who also brought forth the God. We can relate that to the Big Bang - so as time went on, both the God and the Goddess, in the forms of the stars and galaxies, began evolving as well.

I believe that all of us are simply forms of the God and Goddess, experiencing this life, and learning Karmic lessons. This concept was put forth simply and beautifully in Jonathan Livingston Seagull. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3IASnFXR-A)

So if the Goddess and the God, as the Cosmos, are the Creators of all that is, and the different gods and goddesses are merely aspects of the all ("all gods are one god, and all goddesses are one goddess"), and we humans are also part of the One Cosmos (not UNIverse, but the all - including MULITverses) - then Sagan's statement makes sense - "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself."

There is no punishment or reward for worshipping the lord and the lady. Only life lessons to learn. And "life" to experience and enjoy. But we may "worship" god and the goddess in thanks for our being here, and for our life.

As Pierre Teilhard de Chardin said "We are not human beings having a spiritual experience; we are spiritual beings having a human experience." or as the Christians believe, Jesus, as a form of God, was incarnated into Mary so he (as God) could experience human life.

This is what I believe. I don't know about anybody else.

norseman
26-11-2011, 12:01 PM
"Only life lessons to learn. And "life" to experience and enjoy"

In a nutshell, LadyM ! :smile: :hug2:

@chrode - punishment is a christian concept.

Chrode
26-11-2011, 12:11 PM
"Only life lessons to learn. And "life" to experience and enjoy"

In a nutshell, LadyM ! :smile: :hug2:

@chrode - punishment is a christian concept.

I seems that Gardner believe in that.

"And if any break these laws, even under torture, The Curse of the Goddess shall be upon them, so they never reborn on earth, And may they remain where they belong, in the Hell of the Christians."

Quote of the Old Laws bye Gardner Books of Shadow.

Another thing is that all gods are one god and alle godesses are one goddess. In the greek mytology Nemesis punished those who break the devine law.

Medium_Laura
26-11-2011, 02:03 PM
So if you follow another path of Wicca, why are you questioning? I don't follow Gardner or his books. To me, he's just like the Christian crusaders. There is no "curse of the Goddess", not the way I follow Wicca. My deities do not smite, punish or judge. You follow yours, I'll follow mine. Good luck.

norseman
26-11-2011, 02:44 PM
I will refrain from expressing my opinion of Gardner but just bear in mind that he was an ordained christian priest. Nuff said ?

Chrode
26-11-2011, 02:48 PM
So if you follow another path of Wicca, why are you questioning? I don't follow Gardner or his books. To me, he's just like the Christian crusaders. There is no "curse of the Goddess", not the way I follow Wicca. My deities do not smite, punish or judge. You follow yours, I'll follow mine. Good luck.

I feel alone with my opinions but i just argue what I think about the teachings of Wicca.

Chrode
26-11-2011, 02:49 PM
I will refrain from expressing my opinion of Gardner but just bear in mind that he was an ordained christian priest. Nuff said ?

Gardner was not a christan. He is the founder of Wicca.

norseman
26-11-2011, 04:00 PM
Chrode, Gardner was an ordained priest of an obscure Celtic Church as was his good friend, Ross Nichol who founded the largest order of British Druids. Between them, they rewrote the Festival Calender based on the old Agricultural Calender.
Gardner "assembled" wicca on a foundation of modified Craft to which he added ritual and ceremonial from a whole bundle of other esoteric orders , including the Celtic Church.

Miss Hepburn
26-11-2011, 04:11 PM
Reinarnation and karma means that we all have lessons to learn - and in each incarnation, we either learn them, or we get stuck re-living the same problems.

What does this have to do with worshipping the Lord and the Lady? - as my signature reads - a quote from Carl Sagan - "We are a way for the Cosmos to know itself."

In his book and tv series Cosmos, Sagan ..... etc...
Wow, very nice post LadyMoondancer.
:smile:
Welcome here.

Hi Laura, nice to see you. :hug:

LadyMoondancer
26-11-2011, 06:41 PM
[QUOTE=norseman]"Only life lessons to learn. And "life" to experience and enjoy"

In a nutshell, LadyM ! :smile: :hug2:

QUOTE]

in a nutshell? lol, are you saying Norseman, that I am long-winded? lol - I know, I do tend to ramble on. can't help it - I'm a natural born story-teller.

:read2:

and thank you Miss Hepburn. by the way, I love your movies. - The Lion in Winter is my favorite. Gave 'em hell, O Eleanor of Aquitane! lol.

norseman
26-11-2011, 07:13 PM
in a nutshell - Brit colloquialism - meaning the concentrated essence or precisely :D

Chrode
26-11-2011, 07:53 PM
Chrode, Gardner was an ordained priest of an obscure Celtic Church as was his good friend, Ross Nichol who founded the largest order of British Druids. Between them, they rewrote the Festival Calender based on the old Agricultural Calender.
Gardner "assembled" wicca on a foundation of modified Craft to which he added ritual and ceremonial from a whole bundle of other esoteric orders , including the Celtic Church.

I don't know where you are getting your information from but Gardner was initated into new forrest coven and the O.T.O. New forrest coven was a pagan witchcult.

Animus27
26-11-2011, 08:38 PM
Why worship the Lord and Lady?
Depends upon whom you ask. [insert I am not a Wiccan and thus unfamiliar with the nuances and diversity of traditional Wiccan Covens]
Some people perceive the Goddess and God as archetypes that can be used as magical tools, or self-help, others view them as entities that deserve honoring because they have a hand in upholding the world, ad infinitum. Wicca - due to it's mutable and varied nature, even between traditional Gardernian and Alexandrian groups, make it hard to pinpoint a theology; thus, you'll have to rely on statements of individuals Wiccans for a picture of why the gods deserve our attention.

@chrode - punishment is a christian concept.
Surely not? There's the myths of Sisyphus, Tantalus, the fifty daughters of Danaus. As well as the Egyptian Ammit & the various hellish planes of traditional Buddhism.

norseman
28-11-2011, 12:28 PM
I don't know where you are getting your information from but Gardner was initated into new forrest coven and the O.T.O. New forrest coven was a pagan witchcult.

His biography !

Chrode
28-11-2011, 01:45 PM
His biography !

What biography?

norseman
28-11-2011, 02:16 PM
What biography?

"there is only one dedicated biography about Gardner, which was Gerald Gardner: Witch, published in 1960, and written by his friend, Idries Shah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idries_Shah)"[/URL]

"Alongside his work with the Craft in his coven, Gardner became interested in many other forms of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism"]esotericism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner#cite_note-LAMOND9-2) and the occult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult) around this time. He joined the Ancient Druid Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Druid_Order), an organisation that promoted the Neopagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) religion of Druidry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-druidism), as well as a mystical Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) group, the Ancient British Church, who ordained him as a priest."

Miss Hepburn
28-11-2011, 02:41 PM
"there is only one dedicated biography about Gardner, which was Gerald Gardner: Witch, published in 1960, and written by his friend,Idries Shah (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FIdries_Shah)"

"Alongside his work with the Craft in his coven, Gardner became interested in many other forms of esotericism (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FEsotericism) and the occult (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FOccult) around this time. He joined the Ancient Druid Order (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FAncient_Druid_Order), an organisation that promoted theNeopagan (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FNeopaganism) religion of Druidry (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FNeo-druidism), as well as a mystical Christian (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FChristianity) group, the Ancient British Church, who ordained him as a priest."
Took me awhile to see that these underlined words are actually links !!!
Here, I colored them.

Chrode
28-11-2011, 02:54 PM
"there is only one dedicated biography about Gardner, which was Gerald Gardner: Witch, published in 1960, and written by his friend, Idries Shah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idries_Shah)"[/URL]

"Alongside his work with the Craft in his coven, Gardner became interested in many other forms of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Esotericism"]esotericism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerald_Gardner#cite_note-LAMOND9-2) and the occult (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occult) around this time. He joined the Ancient Druid Order (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Druid_Order), an organisation that promoted the Neopagan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neopaganism) religion of Druidry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-druidism), as well as a mystical Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) group, the Ancient British Church, who ordained him as a priest."

How could Gardner believe in other religions if he believe in the goddess and god? He talking about something of hes beliefs in his book witchcraft today.

norseman
28-11-2011, 04:01 PM
Chrode. Gardner was into all sorts of things simultaneously. Seriously, you need to read about Gardner from outside of wicca. He had a lot going on in the Far East where he lived for a while. That friend who wrote his biography had a rather chequered history too. There is also an association of sorts with Robert Graves, who wrote The White Goddess, a mythical poem, and parts of that found their way into wicca as well i.e. The Triple Goddess.
In all honesty, it's not straightforward !
There are further complications of plagiarism from Leland's Aradia in Gardner's Book of Shadows.
All I can suggest is wider reading. It doesn't make wicca invalid but best not to view it through rose-coloured spectacles.
Wicca is a new branch growing on a very old tree :smile:

norseman
28-11-2011, 04:07 PM
Took me awhile to see that these underlined words are actually links !!!
Here, I colored them.

Looks quite festive Miss H :D

Neville
28-11-2011, 04:22 PM
What does Wicca give you? Baskets, Oh thats Wicker is'nt it. Doh, of course Wicca pre dates Gardners current patent quiet significantly and can find its origins in the Anglo Saxon word Wice, pronounced weeke. One of witch might be called solitary where as two were called a fortnight and 4 made up a Month.. i am beginning to think there is no subject that i do not know nothing about. In terms of all forms of spiritual persuits I am quiet an Inept.

ask me another.... Q Why could Joseph and Mary not get a room?

Because they were all booked up with it being Christmas

OK Thats quiet enough idiocy from me and my warped sense of humour.

I got a bit hung up on the devotion to any religion offering either a future reward or future damnation. My mind and heart tells me that faith, ones preferred path is not about long term fulfilment, rather it is an investment in now. Any reward of following a path is if anything being reaped right now, Look at the happy clappy brigade from the bible belt , They are having a riot of a great time, because rejoicing in ones path is now...Not down the line, with a promise. but right now. is where the reward for ones faith is residing. In the practitioners or devotees heart and with each living breath.

To choose a path based on the possible future rewards or pitfalls..One might as well play the stock markets with that perspective. Religions are not like commodities where one speculates on the winning side. If the reward is not immediate, If one is not at once fulfilled by the path they find they are on spiritual. Then its fair to say , it was never the right path to begin with. In my opinion , of course.

LadyMoondancer
29-11-2011, 07:58 PM
How could Gardner believe in other religions if he believe in the goddess and god? He talking about something of hes beliefs in his book witchcraft today.

You have to remember that as Norseman points out - Gardner INVENTED the relgiion of Wicca. He piecemealed it together - from all sorts of sources.

I don't have a problem with that - because in a sense - ALL "religions" are man-made anyway. Whether they were first thought of in ancient Britain, ancient Mesopotamia, ancient China, or 2000 years ago in Palestine or 1400 years ago in Mecca.

I myself am a very eclectic Wiccan - just like Gardner - I take from here, I take from there. I was brought up Roman Catholic - but at the ripe old wise age of 12 failed my religion class in Catholic School - because I could see the hypocrisy. BUT I still respect Jesus. As I respect Mohamed, and Confuscious. I don't see putting Gardner on a pedastal with these great teachers, because even Mother Theresa and Gandhi were more wise than him.

In fact, I have to admit, I never even read Gardner's biography. I'm much more interested in reading and learning from men like St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Francis of Assisi, Rene Descarte, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, Carl Jung, Frederick Niestche (I can NEVER spell that name), William Campbell and Carl Sagan.

Occultist
29-11-2011, 09:57 PM
I know what Wicca is about but my question is what is the reward for worshipping the lord and lady? It is an avoiding for a punishment in the afterlife?
It is not mention in the charge of the goddess and the charge of the god.
wiccans have no care of the after life cause they like a witch really do not believe in a punishment like that more kharma here on earth or rebirth to try again. Wicca is not a fear based religion its very hard for a Christian to understand this but there are religions that dont treat you like a child who got your hand stuck in the cookie jar. Baphomet and the 3 goddess deals with there own children in there own way. There Rede explaines that. But no punishment like hell.

Chrode
29-11-2011, 10:24 PM
wiccans have no care of the after life cause they like a witch really do not believe in a punishment like that more kharma here on earth or rebirth to try again. Wicca is not a fear based religion its very hard for a Christian to understand this but there are religions that dont treat you like a child who got your hand stuck in the cookie jar. Baphomet and the 3 goddess deals with there own children in there own way. There Rede explaines that. But no punishment like hell.

I don't talking about hell because i know that wiccans believe in eternal rebirth but personally i understand it as the goddess and god have both god and bad sides. Nemesis was a goddess for punishment for those who broked the devine law and Nemesis is an aspect of the Goddess in Wicca teology (all goddess are one goddess and all gods are one god). My question is does the goddess not give people a lesson for not worshipping her and the god?

Occultist
30-11-2011, 12:39 AM
Yes of course there just not brutal. more spiritual enlightenment and gifts and knowing. Like many dietys. there just is no wrong and right just dont harm none.<-- only major commandment.
But lessons and gifts or course.
Also some wiccan's just dont believe in Baphomet and the goddess but many other dietys they draw from also and seek knowledge..