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Occultist
19-11-2011, 10:20 PM
I am a Witch not a Wiccan I do not follow the Teachings of Gerald Gardner.
shouldnt there be a seperate thread for us?
Wiccans can be Witches but not all Witches are Wiccans. Just trying to clarify. Thank you.

Etu Malku
19-11-2011, 10:43 PM
How would you define yourself as a Witch?

Medium_Laura
19-11-2011, 11:18 PM
a witch practices magick but does not adhere to the Rede of Wicca.

Occultist
19-11-2011, 11:59 PM
a witch practices magick but does not adhere to the Rede of Wicca.
<-- or the teachings of founder Gerald Gardner Exactly Medium Laura.
Witchcraft is the practice of magick, whereby the material world is altered through an application of will/cast/spell/hex/potion/Ritual etc, by the Witch.
Witchcraft is a magickal practice, but one that has no spiritual or religious connections. Wicca on the other hand, is a religion founded by Gerald Gardner and those who follow it are called Wiccans. Wiccan's can practise way of old cast etc, But not all Wiccan's do this.
Wiccans have a rede created by the founder Gerald Gardner Witches do not have a rede we practise intent and purpose/Karma if you will. There is a huge diff between us. Witches arent good or bad or any color of the rainbow either we are all because nature and humanity is all. I am good cause I am a good person not because I am a Good Witch.
But none the less 2 completely different entities.

Etu Malku
20-11-2011, 12:18 AM
I practice Magick, but don't consider myself a witch.
True Witchcraft dates back to the Greco-Roman Cult of Hekate.

Occultist
20-11-2011, 12:30 AM
I practice Magick, but don't consider myself a witch.
True Witchcraft dates back to the Greco-Roman Cult of Hekate.
Cult is a strong word for a majority of people who dont believe in a Devil or a God like a Christian God. Dontcha think?:rolleyes: I do rituals for Hecate and the Horned God Baphomet.
That is my choice as a human not as a Witch. If you think about it Christianity could be called a Cult also. But thank you for your insight and opinions. But I still say Witches should be seperated from Wiccans thats all.
Because there seperate beliefs. Not because one is better etc.

loumoon
20-11-2011, 01:24 AM
it appears to me that you wish not to be part of the wicca practice as this to you represents a religion and you consider ytourself not religious in any matter or form. you practice magick in your own right and alone and you like to call yourself a witch. this is fine, you can be part of whichever you choose, there is no right and wrong and this is what the craft teaches us, we respect nature and the good of all, and whether or not someone chooses to practice their own type of magick as part of their own following or as part of a religion is fine. we are all following the same path, one of enlightenment and freedom. you need no approval for the path you seek, look within you and follow what makes you happy and you will find what you seek. be happy and go in peace, i wish you well friend

Occultist
20-11-2011, 01:53 AM
I believe you mistaken what I mean or took it offensively. I am saying if you read up on it or google it even there is a huge difference between the 2 belief systems thats why my Suggestion was to make it 2 seperate threads? I am sure a Christian wouldnt want to be called a Satanist although there many similarities in the 2 beliefs. It was a suggestion no big deal thats all Blessings to you and yours dear friend and you go in peace as well.

Animus27
20-11-2011, 03:14 AM
Cult is a strong word for a majority of people who dont believe in a Devil or a God like a Christian God. Dontcha think?:rolleyes:
He is using the word cult in it's proper term as a English form of the Latin cultus - which means offering worship to a deity that has a certain practice. For instance, the cult of Magna Mater was officially brought to Rome during the Punic Wars, when a prophecy foretold that Rome could only gain the advantage when Magna Mater was worshiped by the Empire (I am mostly recollecting it, I hope I have not twisted it too much :tongue:). By instating her cult, the Romans officiated her formal worship as a goddess of the Roman people, and thus gained her favors.

Animus27
20-11-2011, 03:20 AM
I believe you mistaken what I mean or took it offensively. I am saying if you read up on it or google it even there is a huge difference between the 2 belief systems thats why my Suggestion was to make it 2 seperate threads? I am sure a Christian wouldnt want to be called a Satanist although there many similarities in the 2 beliefs. It was a suggestion no big deal thats all Blessings to you and yours dear friend and you go in peace as well.
There are differences between Wicca and witchcraft, for certain. But witchcraft is not a religion. It's a magical practice. When you say "belief system" you're insinuating that witchcraft has a defining belief that is common to all self proclaimed witches; and as in the case of Wiccans insisting that all pagans follow the law of threefold return, it sorely misses the reality.

One can be an atheist witch, a Satanic witch, a Celtic polytheist witch, and countless others that have no connection between them besides the use of the word "witch".

I think that there's not enough "witches, but not Wiccans" around on the forum to constitute a separate subforum. But you're more than welcome to the pagan subforum. :smile:

Scibat
20-11-2011, 03:27 AM
How would you define yourself as a Witch?

She turned me into a newt!

(I got better...)

nightowl
20-11-2011, 03:28 AM
She turned me into a newt!

(I got better...)

Did she float? :D

Medium_Laura
20-11-2011, 05:09 AM
Cult is a strong word for a majority of people who dont believe in a Devil or a God like a Christian God. Dontcha think?:rolleyes: I do rituals for Hecate and the Horned God Baphomet.
That is my choice as a human not as a Witch. If you think about it Christianity could be called a Cult also. But thank you for your insight and opinions. But I still say Witches should be seperated from Wiccans thats all.
Because there seperate beliefs. Not because one is better etc.


Definition of a cult is : A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

So yes, all religions with an "icon" or "God-head" are a cult. It's not a bad thing, it's just a word.

norseman
20-11-2011, 08:42 AM
I practice Magick, but don't consider myself a witch.
True Witchcraft dates back to the Greco-Roman Cult of Hekate.

Witch Craft dates back to millenia before the Graeco-Roman pantheon !

norseman
20-11-2011, 08:51 AM
Occultist, if you read through this "wiccan" thread, you will find that few of us take any notice of the thread heading. There are many non-wiccans here.

When it comes to pantheons, in my opinion, both the Craft and wicca are essentially British, therefore the only relevant pantheon would be Celtic.
Gardner did not create a new religion. He assembled it, like a jigsaw, from pre-existing bits and pieces around a modified Craft core.

Take a look in here
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7006

Scibat
20-11-2011, 09:06 AM
Did she float? :D

*nods sagely* She weighs the same as a duck... Therefore she's made of wood... And therefore...

A witch!!!

loumoon
20-11-2011, 02:57 PM
im sorry i think you have completely misinterpreted my post. i wasnt offended whatsoever by your post, and im unsure as to why you think i was? apologies on the crossed wires

Flowers1992
20-11-2011, 03:03 PM
Then in that light perhaps there should be a separate board for Catholics all Catholics are Christians but not Christians are catholic? Same basic principle; Maybe it was just to save space etc. But the main question is does it really matter?

norseman
20-11-2011, 03:16 PM
Matters not iota, Flowers. The old Craft is the original trunk and wicca is just a new branch off it.

Etu Malku
20-11-2011, 04:10 PM
I believe you mistaken what I mean or took it offensively. I am saying if you read up on it or google it even there is a huge difference between the 2 belief systems thats why my Suggestion was to make it 2 seperate threads? I am sure a Christian wouldnt want to be called a Satanist although there many similarities in the 2 beliefs. It was a suggestion no big deal thats all Blessings to you and yours dear friend and you go in peace as well.There is absolutely nothing in common between Christianity and Satanism.

Etu Malku
20-11-2011, 04:14 PM
Witch Craft dates back to millenia before the Graeco-Roman pantheon ! Can you point towards any evidence of this?

Occultist
20-11-2011, 07:00 PM
There are differences between Wicca and witchcraft, for certain. But witchcraft is not a religion. It's a magical practice. When you say "belief system" you're insinuating that witchcraft has a defining belief that is common to all self proclaimed witches; and as in the case of Wiccans insisting that all pagans follow the law of threefold return, it sorely misses the reality.

One can be an atheist witch, a Satanic witch, a Celtic polytheist witch, and countless others that have no connection between them besides the use of the word "witch".

I think that there's not enough "witches, but not Wiccans" around on the forum to constitute a separate subforum. But you're more than welcome to the pagan subforum. :smile:
We have no religion no diety but when doing magicks we do have a belief system sorry for the confusion

Occultist
20-11-2011, 07:02 PM
Definition of a cult is : A system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

So yes, all religions with an "icon" or "God-head" are a cult. It's not a bad thing, it's just a word.
Yes but a traditional witch doesnt believe in a diety just in the magicks. its up to the individual person not witch to believe in a diety. I have met Christian witches.Wiccan Witches,Jewish Witches, you get the idea.

Occultist
20-11-2011, 07:06 PM
There is absolutely nothing in common between Christianity and Satanism.
Anton Levay purposely created the Church of Satan for another way of thinking in a non fear based religion if it wasnt for Christianity there wouldnt have been a church of Satan.

Occultist
20-11-2011, 07:12 PM
Maybe the a thread was not needed again it was a suggestion but its intresting to see your views on wicca and witchcraft.
I get tired of people asking me my beliefs I tell them I am a Witch they say "Oh Wiccan" no witch so your a bad witch. Umm no. I dont float or turn people into newts or fly without my besom LOL

norseman
20-11-2011, 07:16 PM
Can you point towards any evidence of this?

Various Neolithic monuments in Britain and Northern Europe in general. Also votive objects [shamanic] being dredged from the bottom of the North Sea which was formed by the submersion of the plain at the end of the last Ice Age around 6000 BC.

norseman
20-11-2011, 07:22 PM
Maybe the a thread was not needed again it was a suggestion but its intresting to see your views on wicca and witchcraft.
I get tired of people asking me my beliefs I tell them I am a Witch they say "Oh Wiccan" no witch so your a bad witch. Umm no. I dont float or turn people into newts or fly without my besom LOL

No worries, Occultist. :D Each Craft user is individual and cannot be pigeon-holed [see I am sticking to my dislike of "witch" :D].
Wicca is a subject that can raise a lot of discord !

Animus27
20-11-2011, 08:10 PM
Various Neolithic monuments in Britain and Northern Europe in general. Also votive objects [shamanic] being dredged from the bottom of the North Sea which was formed by the submersion of the plain at the end of the last Ice Age around 6000 BC.
Technically that isn't witchcraft. Votive objects aren't necessarily shamanic in nature either, the Keltoi and Germanii (sticking with Northern European examples) both used votive objects in wells and bogs, and neither of them had a very strong shamanic tradition within their cultures, unless one holds to the unlikely idea of Seithr being a form of Norse shamanism.

If the discovery of such objects implied the practice of what people call witch-craft nowadays, then nearly all religions would be forms of a witch cult - an idea Margaret Murray would love. :D

norseman
20-11-2011, 09:32 PM
OK but don't forget "witch" is a fairly recent invention. Go back to the original - Craft of the Wise, or Cunning Craft, or just Craft. There was a neolithic shamanic line in Northern Europe. The votive objects from the North Sea plain are wide-spread and the Dutch trawlers have found hundreds of thousands of these objects which is a lot different to a few objects found in wells and bogs.

Regarding a sub-forum, I would be OK if this forum was just part of the Pagan forum.

Etu Malku
21-11-2011, 02:58 AM
Anton Levay purposely created the Church of Satan for another way of thinking in a non fear based religion if it wasnt for Christianity there wouldnt have been a church of Satan.
Being an ex-Temple of Set member, I will have to disagree with you here . . .
A quick read through Dr. Aquino's definitive book on the CoS (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xeper.org%2Fmaquino%2Fnm%2FCO S.pdf&ei=Wr7JTreFBYPs0gHi5t0w&usg=AFQjCNHg7W6X9l6rAQq_xsMUr6GkY-oG-A&sig2=OM0HxeAkoTDVwnNH2BLKAg) will clearly put into perspective what the CoS was and wasn't all about.

Etu Malku
21-11-2011, 03:07 AM
Various Neolithic monuments in Britain and Northern Europe in general. Also votive objects [shamanic] being dredged from the bottom of the North Sea which was formed by the submersion of the plain at the end of the last Ice Age around 6000 BC.If you're going to include the magickal systems of Egypt, Mesopotamia, and Indus Valley as witchcraft then I can't argue, but the actual formation of the Cult of the Witch is from Northern Italy, back to Roman times, back to Greek times.

The word Shaman is another word that didn't come into formation until more recently.

Perhaps we are just throwing semantic back and forth?

norseman
21-11-2011, 08:39 AM
Hi Animus !

"If the discovery of such objects implied the practice of what people call witch-craft nowadays, then nearly all religions would be forms of a witch cult"

Been thinking about this and I think you could be right even if you did speak in jest.
"Witch" was generally used against anyone who did not follow the accepted religious dogma of the day. In Europe/N.America etc, that means christianity. So, it was a label used to justify persecution.
This got me thinking - every religion uses rituals and incantations to approach their deity/deities - a description that fits the traditional view of Witchcraft surely.
With an open mind, think on this. A religion which consumes the flesh and blood of it's deity in both symbolic and, to some sects, real terms [ I believe the description is Substantiation.]. In their holy places, they use a strict form of words in the "spells" and have many carved images and idols, and a formal priesthood. High Witchcraft indeed !
You only need look at any religious ceremony with an unfriendly eye and it looks like witchcraft.
This is why I prefer to use Witch Craft, instead of Witchcraft and, truth be known, I prefer to drop the "witch" entirely and just call it The Craft [a modern word probably never used in the long-gone past]

What do you think ? :smile:

norseman
21-11-2011, 08:48 AM
"The word Shaman is another word that didn't come into formation until more recently."

Etu, I think we use the word to describe a function rather than a job title. We do know that both Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon Hunter-Gatherers had wise men/women/healers/etc/etc. So we use "shaman" to describe what they did - invoke local spirits etc to ensure good hunting and successful harvests [later]. So, we probably are dabbling in semantics for want of a better word :smile:
Same argument applies to "witches" much, much earlier than Greek/Roman cultures - are we guilty of applying a modern definition to an ancient function ?

Occultist
21-11-2011, 09:11 AM
I have read Anton's teaching and many left handed beliefs. Look at it this way. Christianity has a "Bible" Church of Satan has a "Bible" both dietys yewah and Satan was biblical even though Satanist do not believe in Satan. But I dont think there would have been a Church of Satan without there being a Christian church first.

Chrode
25-11-2011, 07:56 PM
a witch practices magick but does not adhere to the Rede of Wicca.

Så you se a magician and a witch is the same? Do you se forexample Aleister Crowley as a witch? I have to disagree. In my opinion is a witch a person who practice witchcraft. Witchcraft is a craft you only can learn in a coven. Why i think that is because there is no evidens about witchcults before Gerald Gardner. Hes coven was the first group who call themself witches.

Medium_Laura
25-11-2011, 08:03 PM
OK but don't forget "witch" is a fairly recent invention. Go back to the original - Craft of the Wise, or Cunning Craft, or just Craft. There was a neolithic shamanic line in Northern Europe. The votive objects from the North Sea plain are wide-spread and the Dutch trawlers have found hundreds of thousands of these objects which is a lot different to a few objects found in wells and bogs.

Regarding a sub-forum, I would be OK if this forum was just part of the Pagan forum.
Yes, witches didn't like having to have a "force" to answer to. So therefore they have no deity but still do spellwork etc. It's like being Christian without Christ. Kinda odd in my opinion. Spells are like prayers... So if you are doing spells with no deity to call forth.. It's like praying without a God.

Occultist
25-11-2011, 08:17 PM
Being an ex-Temple of Set member, I will have to disagree with you here . . .
A quick read through Dr. Aquino's definitive book on the CoS (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBwQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.xeper.org%2Fmaquino%2Fnm%2FCO S.pdf&ei=Wr7JTreFBYPs0gHi5t0w&usg=AFQjCNHg7W6X9l6rAQq_xsMUr6GkY-oG-A&sig2=OM0HxeAkoTDVwnNH2BLKAg) will clearly put into perspective what the CoS was and wasn't all about.
In a way I understand but think of it this way I dont think Anton would have needed to create his teachings if there wasnt radical Christians and also if the bible didnt exist the Church of Satan would be called something else..
I see the Radical type of Christian needing a super hero and where there is a super hero there has to be an arch villian. LOL.
I know Satanist doesnt generaly believe in the devil I am saying Anton rejected the Christian way for a reason. without the reason would there still be a Satanic bible?

Animus27
26-11-2011, 09:44 PM
In a way I understand but think of it this way I dont think Anton would have needed to create his teachings if there wasnt radical Christians and also if the bible didnt exist the Church of Satan would be called something else..
I see the Radical type of Christian needing a super hero and where there is a super hero there has to be an arch villian. LOL.
I know Satanist doesnt generaly believe in the devil I am saying Anton rejected the Christian way for a reason. without the reason would there still be a Satanic bible?
That's how I view it. The Church of Satan is a reaction against Christianity. It's entire concept is defined by Christian beliefs. No matter how much they deny it. lol

Animus27
26-11-2011, 09:51 PM
Hi Animus !

"If the discovery of such objects implied the practice of what people call witch-craft nowadays, then nearly all religions would be forms of a witch cult"

Been thinking about this and I think you could be right even if you did speak in jest.
"Witch" was generally used against anyone who did not follow the accepted religious dogma of the day. In Europe/N.America etc, that means christianity. So, it was a label used to justify persecution.
This got me thinking - every religion uses rituals and incantations to approach their deity/deities - a description that fits the traditional view of Witchcraft surely.
With an open mind, think on this. A religion which consumes the flesh and blood of it's deity in both symbolic and, to some sects, real terms [ I believe the description is Substantiation.]. In their holy places, they use a strict form of words in the "spells" and have many carved images and idols, and a formal priesthood. High Witchcraft indeed !
You only need look at any religious ceremony with an unfriendly eye and it looks like witchcraft.
This is why I prefer to use Witch Craft, instead of Witchcraft and, truth be known, I prefer to drop the "witch" entirely and just call it The Craft [a modern word probably never used in the long-gone past]

What do you think ? :smile:
I think that is a valid point. :D Foreign and exotic cultic practices tend to have aspersions cast upon them by the ruling religious powers. But I also think that there is a difference between religious ceremony and the concept of witchcraft. I see witchcraft as being much more egocentric, in terms of being about a person influencing and manipulating something with a perceived power, while in religious ceremony, of course depending upon the theology, is more about turning oneself over to a divinity, and supplication, rather than using personal power.

And as a further thought, I think a useful distinction, for many magics is that they do not have to involve a god, while religious ceremony must be focused upon a god of some kind.

Or, at least, that's the way I think of it most of the time. It's a very hard maze to navigate, that's for sure, since religion is not a cut and dry thing.

norseman
26-11-2011, 10:30 PM
"Witchcraft is a craft you only can learn in a coven." - Chrode

I missed this earlier. Chrode, you are miles off beam there. In Britain, the norm for both wiccans and practitioners of Craft is solitary. The concept of "coven" is more or less gone. More popular in the U.S. perhaps but there is a wide gulf between US and UK.
If you wish to see just how back the witch goes, you should read "Triumph of the Moon" by Professor Ronald Hutton, University of Bristol.

Chrode
26-11-2011, 11:33 PM
"Witchcraft is a craft you only can learn in a coven." - Chrode

I missed this earlier. Chrode, you are miles off beam there. In Britain, the norm for both wiccans and practitioners of Craft is solitary. The concept of "coven" is more or less gone. More popular in the U.S. perhaps but there is a wide gulf between US and UK.
If you wish to see just how back the witch goes, you should read "Triumph of the Moon" by Professor Ronald Hutton, University of Bristol.

Read Witchcraft today bye gerald gardner and british traditional wicca/witchcraft.

norseman
27-11-2011, 09:22 AM
Read Witchcraft today bye gerald gardner and british traditional wicca/witchcraft.
He died over 40 years ago !

Chrode
27-11-2011, 12:47 PM
He died over 40 years ago !

I know but my point is that they craft is not something you can find i a book. It can only be learned in a coven and you have to be 18.

loumoon
27-11-2011, 02:49 PM
I know but my point is that they craft is not something you can find i a book. It can only be learned in a coven and you have to be 18.

why is that?

norseman
27-11-2011, 03:04 PM
Chrode, Peace ! :smile: I think we are on different paths here. I learned my Craft by observation and experience over a period of 45+ years, just wandering across the moors and dales of my patch. My Craft is purely Earth-Magic and it began by learning everything there is to know about my Land - flora and fauna, weather patterns, the moods of the rivers, the changes of the seasons, the animals, and the ancestors who's footsteps I follow. I have found places of power in the landscape and old dwelling places from the Bronze and Iron Age and used them for journeys under meditation. I slept out in open frequently in the place where I carried out a dedication ceremony to Mother Earth. So, my craft is experiential. There is no-one to teach me or books to study on my Craft. Everyone on this path is self-taught. Now, it may not be Witch Craft as you see it but it is the Old Way of the Cunning Folk which is pre-christian in Britain and is not as rare as some may think in rural settings. They were the tribal wise men/women who ensured good hunting and successful harvests. :smile:

Chrode
27-11-2011, 04:09 PM
why is that?

Gardner argued that they will not bring the burnintimes on them again. That is why you have to be initiated in a coven to learn witchcraft.

It's also a devine law.
The charge of the goddess state:
"There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets;"

Chrode
27-11-2011, 04:10 PM
Chrode, Peace ! :smile: I think we are on different paths here. I learned my Craft by observation and experience over a period of 45+ years, just wandering across the moors and dales of my patch. My Craft is purely Earth-Magic and it began by learning everything there is to know about my Land - flora and fauna, weather patterns, the moods of the rivers, the changes of the seasons, the animals, and the ancestors who's footsteps I follow. I have found places of power in the landscape and old dwelling places from the Bronze and Iron Age and used them for journeys under meditation. I slept out in open frequently in the place where I carried out a dedication ceremony to Mother Earth. So, my craft is experiential. There is no-one to teach me or books to study on my Craft. Everyone on this path is self-taught. Now, it may not be Witch Craft as you see it but it is the Old Way of the Cunning Folk which is pre-christian in Britain and is not as rare as some may think in rural settings. They were the tribal wise men/women who ensured good hunting and successful harvests. :smile:

If you not have been initated then you can't call yourself a witch.

norseman
27-11-2011, 04:39 PM
If you not have been initated then you can't call yourself a witch.
I don't. I am of the Cunning Folk, a much older tradition.
And I have had this argument more times than I care to remember, mostly with young Americans.

By the way, the Charge of the Goddess is a 20th century thing written by Valiente as part of Gardner's wicca.

WhiteWarrior
27-11-2011, 07:00 PM
Norseman, I know nothing of Wicca. Just want to say that I loved reading your words about the path you are following. I have so far resisted following any specific culture or religion but yours resonates with me.

Occultist
27-11-2011, 07:47 PM
I completly understand what the teaching were but Satanist I believe imo<- remember everyone has one and everyone thinks theres doesnt stick as bad as the next guy".. thats there wouldnt be on without the other.

loumoon
27-11-2011, 07:51 PM
norseman i like the way you practice witch craft or whatever you would call it, im not sure on the wording of such things tbh. it sounds so peaceful and natural, my kind of thing really! to me, witch craft is about nature and honouring it and asking for its guidance. and to me 'witch' doesnt have strict guidelines that must be adhered to, i dont know so much about the history of witch craft and by no means call myself a witch, i am still learning alot about it every day but one thing that seems to be consistant in everything i have read is that there is no wrong or right so long as you wish no harm upon another.

chrode-if you are reading from a book about what a witch is and what you need to do to be a witch, how do you know that the book your reading is the right one? there are so many witchcraft books out there, why is yours the one that must be adhered to in order for someone to call themselves a witch? and im not asking to challenge you, i am asking as i am still merely learning, and its nice to hear peoples points of views. so far it seems very complex and there seems to be a lot of variations of witch craft, i personally go with what sits right with me and is probably a mix of a lot of different things, im not really sure? maybe im easily confused lol :)

Occultist
27-11-2011, 10:08 PM
norseman i like the way you practice witch craft or whatever you would call it, im not sure on the wording of such things tbh. it sounds so peaceful and natural, my kind of thing really! to me, witch craft is about nature and honouring it and asking for its guidance. and to me 'witch' doesnt have strict guidelines that must be adhered to, i dont know so much about the history of witch craft and by no means call myself a witch, i am still learning alot about it every day but one thing that seems to be consistant in everything i have read is that there is no wrong or right so long as you wish no harm upon another.

chrode-if you are reading from a book about what a witch is and what you need to do to be a witch, how do you know that the book your reading is the right one? there are so many witchcraft books out there, why is yours the one that must be adhered to in order for someone to call themselves a witch? and im not asking to challenge you, i am asking as i am still merely learning, and its nice to hear peoples points of views. so far it seems very complex and there seems to be a lot of variations of witch craft, i personally go with what sits right with me and is probably a mix of a lot of different things, im not really sure? maybe im easily confused lol :)
your very wise youll find your way and if you have any questions feel free to ask.

loumoon
27-11-2011, 11:17 PM
thats very kind of you to say occultist!! i dont think im wise, just open minded and easy going. i dont believe in set ways of doing things, black or white, i believe that sometimes things have to be adapted, changed and even accepted for being slightly off course. to have too much rigidity in something i believe is setting yourself up to fail. but...this is just my opinion by no means am i saying im right :)

dont particularly have questions about how to do things as i know that that only comes with practice and research and im doing both and having fun, and keeping it simple but i am struggling with trying to quiet my mind, i am a naturally inquisitive and a very deep thinker (as i think most are on here tbh) and sometimes i find it hard to switch the internal chatter off to concentrate or to meditate. any tips anyone has would be greatly appreciated!

p.s. after reading a very lovely post from a very wise man (you know who you are) i think it is safe to say hedge witch craft is something i can identify with, but i also enjoy meditation and had an experience recently that someone said it could be my higher self???? have no clue what this is or means or if its related to the fact ive been meditating alot and practicing? any one have any clue?

Occultist
28-11-2011, 03:37 AM
I belong to a Coven but was taught through my family but still have great respect for solitarys and wiccans.

norseman
28-11-2011, 08:24 AM
Meditation can be the key to a great many things, Loumoon. :smile:

Chrode
28-11-2011, 01:26 PM
chrode-if you are reading from a book about what a witch is and what you need to do to be a witch, how do you know that the book your reading is the right one? there are so many witchcraft books out there, why is yours the one that must be adhered to in order for someone to call themselves a witch? and im not asking to challenge you, i am asking as i am still merely learning, and its nice to hear peoples points of views. so far it seems very complex and there seems to be a lot of variations of witch craft, i personally go with what sits right with me and is probably a mix of a lot of different things, im not really sure? maybe im easily confused lol :)

Because Gardner was the first one to use the term "witch" in positive meaning. He was the first one to call himself witch. Before him it was a supernatural human who worshipped the devil seeing in the eyes of the church. A myth which there a no evidence behind. The different between modern witches and the traditional witches from the burnin times is that the traditional was called witches bye other and the modern witche call themself witches.

What you see in other books is really eclectic neo-paganism and have nothing to do with witchcraft.

loumoon
28-11-2011, 06:47 PM
thanks for replying chrode. as far as i am aware, to those who have practiced magick, whether or not they have called themselves witch or not, have never worshipped the devil? that is something completely different, i dont believe that witch craft is something you learn from one particular book, i believe its something that has to be learnt through practice and good intent and dedication, whether that is alone as part of a covern. the craft has been practiced in many ways for centuries, and has probably been called a lot of different things along the way, i do believe it is posible to practice in lots of different ways, from lots of different teachings to find a way that suits the individual. whether this means you lose the right to call yourself a witch or not i do not honestly know, but i work alone, i would not want to be part of a covern, but i use candles, incense, crystals, and lots of good intentions and visualisation, does this make me a witch? this i also honestly do not know, all i do know is i am finding my own way, which suits me personally, and i think a lot of people do the same, it doesnt mean that they are any less dedicated than someone who is part of a covern

would you tell a christian, who prays every night and who lives by the bible that he is not a christian as he doesnt belong to a particular church or parish? its your intentions and what you personally believe that makes you what you are, not what is written in a book by someone else who has completely different ideas and lifestyle. just my opinion though :)

Chrode
28-11-2011, 06:57 PM
thanks for replying chrode. as far as i am aware, to those who have practiced magick, whether or not they have called themselves witch or not, have never worshipped the devil? that is something completely different, i dont believe that witch craft is something you learn from one particular book, i believe its something that has to be learnt through practice and good intent and dedication, whether that is alone as part of a covern. the craft has been practiced in many ways for centuries, and has probably been called a lot of different things along the way, i do believe it is posible to practice in lots of different ways, from lots of different teachings to find a way that suits the individual. whether this means you lose the right to call yourself a witch or not i do not honestly know, but i work alone, i would not want to be part of a covern, but i use candles, incense, crystals, and lots of good intentions and visualisation, does this make me a witch? this i also honestly do not know, all i do know is i am finding my own way, which suits me personally, and i think a lot of people do the same, it doesnt mean that they are any less dedicated than someone who is part of a covern

would you tell a christian, who prays every night and who lives by the bible that he is not a christian as he doesnt belong to a particular church or parish? its your intentions and what you personally believe that makes you what you are, not what is written in a book by someone else who has completely different ideas and lifestyle. just my opinion though :)

Can you be a doctor without education? Witchcraft is not a faith but a craft...

loumoon
28-11-2011, 09:24 PM
that is unrelated, the comment was in reference to being part of a covern, not about educating yourself about the craft, education of the craft doesnt have to come from within a covern, it is possible to learn about witch craft without being part of a covern. and i dont agree that its just a craft...its so much more than that, there is a deep spiritual side to it, and you have to believe and have faith that what you are doing will work, with modern medicine you dont, its unrelated. incantations that are used in the craft are similar to prayers, prayers to mother nature, you work a spell then leave it in the hands of the powers that be. modern medicine holds no resembelence to this

Etu Malku
29-11-2011, 03:58 AM
That's how I view it. The Church of Satan is a reaction against Christianity. It's entire concept is defined by Christian beliefs. No matter how much they deny it. lolIt took a while but I finally got a comment from The Temple of Set's founder Dr. Michael Aquino on this topic

The Church of Satan (http://www.the600club.com/encyclopedia/Church_of_Satan) was the result of Anton LaVey (http://www.the600club.com/encyclopedia/Anton_LaVey)'s and the other original Magic Circle members' interest in spooky fun. Cf. Anton's weekly lecture topics in my Church of Satan by way of illustration. Judæo/Christianity was just something to whoopie-cushion along with other hypocritical social institutions. Of course when Ed Webber suggested that the MC would get more attention as a Church of Satan (http://www.the600club.com/encyclopedia/Church_of_Satan), there was a sort of obligation to be "blasphemous", as for example in some of the Satanic Bible rants. But in its internal "social climate", the Church wasn't a theological or even emotional reaction against J/C. It was a positive, good-natured adventure in its own right/rite. I think this is pretty obvious, for instance, in the 1968 Satanis (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QHgZY75TxE) documentary.

There were occasional exceptions, who stuck out as exceptions: persons who came to the Church after bad experiences with J/C and a resultant hatred of it. Wayne West, author of the Missa Solemnis, is an example.

As for the Temple of Set, it is indifferent to J/C except as a historical social influence. Setians are again independently/positively motivated, ultimately by the phenomenon of isolate consciousness, and such motivation appears in any number of contexts, not just J/C or other mainstream religious ones. _________________________
Michael A. Aquino - reprinted by permission from Dr. M.Aquino

Animus27
29-11-2011, 05:17 AM
It took a while but I finally got a comment from The Temple of Set's founder Dr. Michael Aquino on this topic

- reprinted by permission from Dr. M.Aquino
That's interesting. But he ignores the fact that the Church of Satan is ultimately a child of Christianity. Even if they are atheistic in their outlook and employ Satanic trappings, those trappings are based off of Christian depictions of Satan, not anything else; no matter how much they'd like to wish it otherwise.

norseman
29-11-2011, 08:33 AM
Christ - Satan = Yin - Yang. What's the big mystery ?

loumoon
29-11-2011, 09:03 AM
agree with norseman..if there is good there is bad, its the balance of nature, dark and light etc.

Chrode
29-11-2011, 09:30 AM
that is unrelated, the comment was in reference to being part of a covern, not about educating yourself about the craft, education of the craft doesnt have to come from within a covern, it is possible to learn about witch craft without being part of a covern. and i dont agree that its just a craft...its so much more than that, there is a deep spiritual side to it, and you have to believe and have faith that what you are doing will work, with modern medicine you dont, its unrelated. incantations that are used in the craft are similar to prayers, prayers to mother nature, you work a spell then leave it in the hands of the powers that be. modern medicine holds no resembelence to this

My point is that witchcraft is not about beliefs but practice. It is a craft that can take many years to learn but it is not something you can learn in a book. How would you learn it without initating into a coven?

norseman
29-11-2011, 09:53 AM
Can you be a doctor without education? Witchcraft is not a faith but a craft...
I think it would be a mistake to regard the Craft like a recipe book. It is much more than just knowledge which can be taught.
In my opinion, I am not sure if "knowledge" is the right word to use. There is an Emotional content and Mental disciplines which can only come from experience. The Craft is not about dogmatic rituals and robes and titles [compare with the Catholic Church], it is more about ways of thinking and feeling, and life-styles. Given that so-called "Magic" is the channeling and directing of natural Earth energies and that channeling/directing is a mental discipline, it calls into question your relationship with the Earth. If you don't get that right, you can chant and dance in a circle to the end of time to no avail.
I don't follow a Path, I seek to become part of the Path. I don't seek to "own" the Land, it owns me. I am not the master but the servant.

Now, I do know that many wiccans reject the Craft part and concentrate purely on the Spiritual/Religious aspects, and there is no problem with that.
Wicca is a gentle faith with many redeeming features and can stand on it's own feet.

"How would you learn it without initating into a coven?" You learn by experience, by doing !

Chrode
29-11-2011, 10:17 AM
I think it would be a mistake to regard the Craft like a recipe book. It is much more than just knowledge which can be taught.
In my opinion, I am not sure if "knowledge" is the right word to use. There is an Emotional content and Mental disciplines which can only come from experience. The Craft is not about dogmatic rituals and robes and titles [compare with the Catholic Church], it is more about ways of thinking and feeling, and life-styles. Given that so-called "Magic" is the channeling and directing of natural Earth energies and that channeling/directing is a mental discipline, it calls into question your relationship with the Earth. If you don't get that right, you can chant and dance in a circle to the end of time to no avail.
I don't follow a Path, I seek to become part of the Path. I don't seek to "own" the Land, it owns me. I am not the master but the servant.

Now, I do know that many wiccans reject the Craft part and concentrate purely on the Spiritual/Religious aspects, and there is no problem with that.
Wicca is a gentle faith with many redeeming features and can stand on it's own feet.

"How would you learn it without initating into a coven?" You learn by experience, by doing !

What is you source to call that "witchcraft"?

norseman
29-11-2011, 11:13 AM
What is you source to call that "witchcraft"?
Not sure I understand your question :smile:

Think we are closer than you think. You call it "practice", I call it "experience"


(http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D12683)

loumoon
29-11-2011, 03:38 PM
My point is that witchcraft is not about beliefs but practice. It is a craft that can take many years to learn but it is not something you can learn in a book. How would you learn it without initating into a coven?

but you are quoting and following guidelines from a book are you not? you said that gardener says in his book that youmust be part of a covern, so you are doing exactly what you say you cant learn from a book ;)

there are basics when it comes to the craft, certain colours represent certain elements etc, but nothing is set in stone, it is important to know and understand the different phases of the moon, and how it will affect any spells you wish to cast but if you study witch craft...everything i have read and discovered says and proves there are very few set rules, it is intent and trust in nature that is the key ingredient. i am not however saying that you are wrong to be in a covern, not by a long shot....this is the way in which it suits you, you follow a certain book which tells you to do things in a certain way, as do your covern and that works for you, which is all that matters, that you have faith and belief in what you are doing, and that you enjoy it and go forward with good intent, then no harm done. i believe in what i do, and i love it, its with me all the time, and its all around me...its nature. i agree (again) with norseman that we are servants of the earth, we can only ask for things to be a certain way and try to channel the energies to go a certain way, but sometimes there is another plan in mind and you have to trust that. is nice to hear different perspectives though for sure. i have often wondered about a covern, but i know it wouldnt be my thing, buy hey...thats just me!! :)

Sungirl
29-11-2011, 04:12 PM
Out of interest... do you consider yourself pagan? There is a forum for pagans

Chrode
29-11-2011, 04:21 PM
but you are quoting and following guidelines from a book are you not? you said that gardener says in his book that youmust be part of a covern, so you are doing exactly what you say you cant learn from a book ;)

there are basics when it comes to the craft, certain colours represent certain elements etc, but nothing is set in stone, it is important to know and understand the different phases of the moon, and how it will affect any spells you wish to cast but if you study witch craft...everything i have read and discovered says and proves there are very few set rules, it is intent and trust in nature that is the key ingredient. i am not however saying that you are wrong to be in a covern, not by a long shot....this is the way in which it suits you, you follow a certain book which tells you to do things in a certain way, as do your covern and that works for you, which is all that matters, that you have faith and belief in what you are doing, and that you enjoy it and go forward with good intent, then no harm done. i believe in what i do, and i love it, its with me all the time, and its all around me...its nature. i agree (again) with norseman that we are servants of the earth, we can only ask for things to be a certain way and try to channel the energies to go a certain way, but sometimes there is another plan in mind and you have to trust that. is nice to hear different perspectives though for sure. i have often wondered about a covern, but i know it wouldnt be my thing, buy hey...thats just me!! :)

I don't follow guidelines from a book. I just give you facts that witchcraft is something you can't learn yourself. It can only be learned bye initating into a coven. As i remember Gardner say "only a witch can create an another witch". Be in pact with nature have nothing to do with witchcraft. Many pagans do that. The practice of magic don't make you a witch but a magician just...

norseman
29-11-2011, 04:26 PM
I have some questions to put to you, Chrode, in exchange for those you have been asking/
How old are you ?
How much actual experience do you have ?

"I just give you facts that witchcraft is something you can't learn yourself."
What facts ? All you have done is say Gardner says this, Gardner says that [ in a book almost 40 years old]

Chrode
29-11-2011, 04:37 PM
I have some questions to put to you, Chrode, in exchange for those you have been asking/
How old are you ?
How much actual experience do you have ?

"I just give you facts that witchcraft is something you can't learn yourself."
What facts ? All you have done is say Gardner says this, Gardner says that [ in a book almost 40 years old]

What have it do with my age and experience? All can read books. Gardner was the first one to use the term witch about himself. Before that it was something the church called people and there is no evidens that says that there have existed selfappointed witches before Gardner.

vulkus
29-11-2011, 05:13 PM
Cult is a strong word for a majority of people who dont believe in a Devil or a God like a Christian God. Dontcha think?:rolleyes: I do rituals for Hecate and the Horned God Baphomet.
That is my choice as a human not as a Witch. If you think about it Christianity could be called a Cult also. But thank you for your insight and opinions. But I still say Witches should be seperated from Wiccans thats all.
Because there seperate beliefs. Not because one is better etc.
Then you're on the wrong forum. You will mostly find love and lighters here.

vulkus
29-11-2011, 05:56 PM
Yes, witches didn't like having to have a "force" to answer to. So therefore they have no deity but still do spellwork etc. It's like being Christian without Christ. Kinda odd in my opinion. Spells are like prayers... So if you are doing spells with no deity to call forth.. It's like praying without a God.
They are only the same in that a spell and a prayer are both forms of incantation.
However one gives glory to and invokes the will of God or a Deity.
While the other quite often intends will of the crafter toward an action.
A prayer uses no 3rd party instruments.
A spell quite often does.

Spell work does not require an external agent to work, a prayer does. So no they are not the same.

vulkus
29-11-2011, 06:26 PM
I don't. I am of the Cunning Folk, a much older tradition.
And I have had this argument more times than I care to remember, mostly with young Americans.

By the way, the Charge of the Goddess is a 20th century thing written by Valiente as part of Gardner's wicca.
The cunning folk, and you would be versed in the language of the birds...:wink:

vulkus
29-11-2011, 06:37 PM
I don't follow guidelines from a book. I just give you facts that witchcraft is something you can't learn yourself. It can only be learned bye initating into a coven. As i remember Gardner say "only a witch can create an another witch". Be in pact with nature have nothing to do with witchcraft. Many pagans do that. The practice of magic don't make you a witch but a magician just...
A coven or circle whatever you want to call it. Is more like a gathering, using Gardner as a reference is pointless. He is much like the martial artist that once attaining his first dan or black belt believes he knows all the secrets and then goes on to form his own art and teaches, an abomination. Some truth mixed with a whole lot of make believe. Wiccan/white lighter same thing.
One does not need a coven to learn magic, I believe norseman has been trained by older methods.
I have to ask though Chrode, like the chicken and the egg. Who taught the teachers? Initially there were no covens so who then taught the first witch?

oh and to your other post:
The word is attested in the 18th to 19th century, and remains in limited use in literary language as a synonym of stregoneria "witchcraft". Both terms are from strega +‎ -eria (the latter with an additional -ona- suffix), ultimately a derivation from Latin strix "witch". Well before Gardner, and here I googled it for you, many instances dating back to the 1600's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch

norseman
29-11-2011, 07:49 PM
"I believe norseman has been trained by older methods."

:smile: Vulkus. I am trained by the Land and I am dedicated to Mother Earth.

But I do owe Chrode an apology for asking questions which have no relevence.

Chrode
29-11-2011, 08:04 PM
A coven or circle whatever you want to call it. Is more like a gathering, using Gardner as a reference is pointless. He is much like the martial artist that once attaining his first dan or black belt believes he knows all the secrets and then goes on to form his own art and teaches, an abomination. Some truth mixed with a whole lot of make believe. Wiccan/white lighter same thing.
One does not need a coven to learn magic, I believe norseman has been trained by older methods.
I have to ask though Chrode, like the chicken and the egg. Who taught the teachers? Initially there were no covens so who then taught the first witch?

oh and to your other post:
The word is attested in the 18th to 19th century, and remains in limited use in literary language as a synonym of stregoneria "witchcraft". Both terms are from strega +‎ -eria (the latter with an additional -ona- suffix), ultimately a derivation from Latin strix "witch". Well before Gardner, and here I googled it for you, many instances dating back to the 1600's.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Witch

A coven is a group leaded bye a highpreistess and preist.
And yes you don't have to be initiated to learn magic (like i said if you read my post again). But i see a different between a magician and a witch.
Wikipedia is not a good source.

No one knows who taught the first witch.. It could be the Goddess herself...

norseman
29-11-2011, 08:21 PM
The Cunning Folk came into their powers when the hunter-gatherer tribes first came into Britain when the North Sea plain flooded. They came from an open tundra into a densely forested land, home to the wolf, bear, and wild boar - a frightening place, home to the Green Spirits of the Land. The earliest pagan gods came from there - The Green Man and the God of the Animals, Kernunnos. The shaman of the tribes found places of power in the forest and left offerings to the capricious spirits. They learned their magic and to stride the veil to commune with the ancestors. So, about 6000 BC. The Cunning Folk are still doing what they always did !

"No one knows who taught the first witch.. It could be the Goddess herself" The goddess, Mother Earth.

vulkus
29-11-2011, 08:31 PM
A coven is a group leaded bye a highpreistess and preist.
And yes you don't have to be initiated to learn magic (like i said if you read my post again). But i see a different between a magician and a witch.
Wikipedia is not a good source.

No one knows who taught the first witch.. It could be the Goddess herself...
Neither is Gardner a good source, you quote from one bad source I another. But I think wikipedia is somewhat better than Gardner.

Norseman, I know your ways. I know your people, my ancestral name translates roughly to english as Eastern branch.

loumoon
29-11-2011, 08:48 PM
I don't follow guidelines from a book. I just give you facts that witchcraft is something you can't learn yourself. It can only be learned bye initating into a coven. As i remember Gardner say "only a witch can create an another witch". Be in pact with nature have nothing to do with witchcraft. Many pagans do that. The practice of magic don't make you a witch but a magician just...

i am not someone who claims to be a witch so have nothing to gain by having a debate with you on this..i dont want you to think i am trying to fight my own personal corner as i am not, but in the statement i have quoted, you have majorly contradicted yourself. 'i dont follow guidelines from a book i just give you facts.............as i remember gardner say' this gardner you speak of are you reading of his findings/teachings/personal view from a book? are you following what he says?? yes you are my friend. i am pleased for you that a covern is something you feel so strongly about but am worried that you are following gardners teaching s to the letter with no room for growth or open mindedness, this is not a good thing im afraid. this is just one man, why is he right?? he is right to you because you believe him, that gives him power in your eyes, i could believe something entirely different that someone else has said/written, why is your teacher more correct than mine? how do we know anyones teacher is more correct than another? i read lots of books etc about the craft and follow and listen to the consistencies between them, and try to find my OWN way, there is no single witch craft bible, just lots and lots of books with different variations, and i still dont understand why you think this one variation is most definitely the 'one' if he did use the term witch first in a positive light, that doesnt make him the first witch or the only person in the whole world who had it right, witch was possibly called something else before it was termed 'witch' it is not the name that is important in all honesty, call yourself what you will, it doesnt really matter as it is just a name, it is like i keep saying your practice and intentions that matter more than the title you give yourself. enjoy what you are doing and believe what you will, but dont be fooled into thinking there is only one way and the way your doing it is it...this is a sign of immaturity, and i dont mean this patronising at all, i just think that you have a lot to learn as do i, but you can only learn more if you open your mind....does a wise man know he is wise? or does he think he has more to learn?:smile:

Chrode
29-11-2011, 09:10 PM
i am not someone who claims to be a witch so have nothing to gain by having a debate with you on this..i dont want you to think i am trying to fight my own personal corner as i am not, but in the statement i have quoted, you have majorly contradicted yourself. 'i dont follow guidelines from a book i just give you facts.............as i remember gardner say' this gardner you speak of are you reading of his findings/teachings/personal view from a book? are you following what he says?? yes you are my friend. i am pleased for you that a covern is something you feel so strongly about but am worried that you are following gardners teaching s to the letter with no room for growth or open mindedness, this is not a good thing im afraid. this is just one man, why is he right?? he is right to you because you believe him, that gives him power in your eyes, i could believe something entirely different that someone else has said/written, why is your teacher more correct than mine? how do we know anyones teacher is more correct than another? i read lots of books etc about the craft and follow and listen to the consistencies between them, and try to find my OWN way, there is no single witch craft bible, just lots and lots of books with different variations, and i still dont understand why you think this one variation is most definitely the 'one' if he did use the term witch first in a positive light, that doesnt make him the first witch or the only person in the whole world who had it right, witch was possibly called something else before it was termed 'witch' it is not the name that is important in all honesty, call yourself what you will, it doesnt really matter as it is just a name, it is like i keep saying your practice and intentions that matter more than the title you give yourself. enjoy what you are doing and believe what you will, but dont be fooled into thinking there is only one way and the way your doing it is it...this is a sign of immaturity, and i dont mean this patronising at all, i just think that you have a lot to learn as do i, but you can only learn more if you open your mind....does a wise man know he is wise? or does he think he has more to learn?:smile:

I think you misunderstand me.. I talking about the DEFINITION of a witch or witchcraft. And Gardner define a witch as a member of an old fertillity cult who practice magic. He was the first one to use the term witch in positive meaning. Therefore he has the first right to the term "witch" or "modern witch". As i said a witch is one who practice witchcraft and witchcraft is a specific magical practice you can't learn bye yourself but only through initating into a coven leaded bye a highpreistess.

What you see in other books are eclectice neo-paganism and there is nothing wrong with that but it is not witchcraft...

Occultist
29-11-2011, 09:32 PM
I think you misunderstand me.. I talking about the DEFINITION of a witch or witchcraft. And Gardner define a witch as a member of an old fertillity cult who practice magic. He was the first one to use the term witch in positive meaning. Therefore he has the first right to the term "witch" or "modern witch". As i said a witch is one who practice witchcraft and witchcraft is a specific magical practice you can't learn bye yourself but only through initating into a coven leaded bye a highpreistess.

What you see in other books are eclectice neo-paganism and there is nothing wrong with that but it is not witchcraft...


Agree. to many teachings out there that misdirect people or people have even told me they were born witches. I blaim TV shows like Charmed and Secret Circle and ** like that to make some people believe there Witches. We called it Wise women but Witch has had so much **** thrown to it I am embracing my witch heritage. But again Wiccan's are not Witches they can be. They can be Christian Witches if thats what they want but true Witch is not a Wiccan 2 seperate beings. That can be combined but has nothing to do with each other. If you are true Wiccans and Follow Gerald Gardners teachings then please read Wiccan Roots: Gerald Gardner and the Modern Witchcraft Revival. It is a hippy version of what he thought being a witch was. Like Before I would claim being a Christian I better study that bible. correct?. I am not saying its bad good better lesser indifferent I am saying Wiccans and Witches completly different. Gerald Gardner isnt the end all be all. Also if he watched shows like Charmed he prolly be rolling a fat one and laughing his hiney off.

loumoon
29-11-2011, 09:37 PM
to be honest chrode i think were both on completely different pages here lol. i still disagree that you have to be in a covern to be a witch...but lets agree to disagree :) been nice having a bit of a debate with you though, nothing wrong with a debate over a difference in opions.....i wish you well for the future :)

Occultist
29-11-2011, 09:45 PM
Loumoon tell me what a Witch is and all the teachings you have learned and past down to you. start there and we will work out the rest.

Chrode
29-11-2011, 09:56 PM
Agree. to many teachings out there that misdirect people or people have even told me they were born witches. I blaim TV shows like Charmed and Secret Circle and ** like that to make some people believe there Witches. We called it Wise women but Witch has had so much **** thrown to it I am embracing my witch heritage. But again Wiccan's are not Witches they can be. They can be Christian Witches if thats what they want but true Witch is not a Wiccan 2 seperate beings. That can be combined but has nothing to do with each other. If you are true Wiccans and Follow Gerald Gardners teachings then please read Wiccan Roots: Gerald Gardner and the Modern Witchcraft Revival. It is a hippy version of what he thought being a witch was. Like Before I would claim being a Christian I better study that bible. correct?. I am not saying its bad good better lesser indifferent I am saying Wiccans and Witches completly different. Gerald Gardner isnt the end all be all. Also if he watched shows like Charmed he prolly be rolling a fat one and laughing his hiney off.

I don't say that witch and wiccan are the same. I only trying to tell that witchcraft is something you have to be initated to learn, but there can be witches who have left their coven and follow an other way.

loumoon
29-11-2011, 10:03 PM
occultist...? obviously i have offended you so i will leave the thread, i dont wish to upset anyone at all. i was merely saying that i dont believe in order to be a witch you have to be part of a covern....as i have said, i dont claim to be a witch at all and am trying to find my path, but i dont believe in taking a book one person has written and hanging off its every word as the absolute truth...maybe the path i enjoy is nothing to do with witch craft, maybe it is something else entirely but i am trying my hardest to figure that out, i am keeping an open mind and asking lots of questions and challenging views that seem to be flawed..that is all. and how do you expect me to list all the things i have learned?? what would you like me to do, write in great detail every thing i have ever done in the decade i have been studying it? that would be impossible and i think it is unfair of you to ask me to do that just so that you can pick fault and argue. i didnt dispute anything chrode said other than the fact he contradicted himself by saying you cant learn anything from a book and when he said you have to be part of a covern to be a witch. anyway sorry once again

Occultist
29-11-2011, 10:51 PM
No you havent offended me at all. I am a curious person and would like to know your answer. I am an adult if you offended me I would say "Hey you offended me was that your intention?. I just want your personal definition is all. thank you for your wisdom


PS: I never asked for a list but a definition.

Occultist
29-11-2011, 10:52 PM
I don't say that witch and wiccan are the same. I only trying to tell that witchcraft is something you have to be initated to learn, but there can be witches who have left their coven and follow an other way.
agreed completly

loumoon
29-11-2011, 11:08 PM
im not sure i have a definition, if im honest, but from what i have learnt so far, a witch is some one who practices witch craft, and witch craft is something that uses nature, incantations, candles, crystals, colour, visualisation to change or alter the course of something, to help heal, to guide and protect you...i know there is a lot more involved, which is why i say i am still learning, but from what i understand to do these things, being part of a covern is not a requirement. as i have said before i dont class myself a witch by any means whatsoever..as im still learning exactly what everything means, and there seems to be so many complicated factors and many different areas...i know what i like and what calls out to me, so maybe im just a crazy lady messing about with candles lol but i dont care, i enjoy it ;)
p.s. i am so wary on these sites as its easy to offend someone as tone etc cant be determined from reading something, and sometimes i dont come across the way i mean...i get told im blunt but i dont mean to be, im just very inquisitive, its taken me a very long time to speak to other people about what i, lets say...enjoy doing, ive always studied and practiced in secret, as i find it a bit taboo, and i find it quite over whelming on here at times, everyone seems to know so much about the history in great detail...all i know is what i feel to be right, to me, i try to stay open minded and take on board what people say, i want to learn but dont want to be believing something that isnt true at all..i like to know that what im learning is from a good source or consistant...does that make sense, or am i just totally rambling on?? lol

Occultist
30-11-2011, 01:53 AM
agree it is easy to offend some because on these sights people cant see our eyes or tell our own emotions. I wasnt attacking it sounds like you are on the right track and becareful with Covens if you wanna try one cause some dont know what the heck there doing and some are there for the free wine and "Great Rite" .. If you have any questions concerns with castings,hexings or anything of the sort feel free to ask her or message me.

loumoon
30-11-2011, 08:34 AM
thats ok then ;) i am always wary like i say...im new on here and i know people have been on here for a long time and i dont want to come on poking my nose in and peeing everyone off haha..im just here to learn a bit more if i can and chat to like minded people...a covern in all honesty doesnt interest me, like you say some dont know what they are doing and it would be just my luck to get in with a weird cult haha...im safer on my own, trouble seems to find me at times lol. like the idea of free wine though..;) hahaha.

thanks for the offer of help, at the minute i just practice healing really, of the mind and spirit and meditation, and doing lots of research again, i didnt practice for 2 or 3 years and have gotten a bit rusty with it if im honest, i had a very bad experience with a spell (if thats the right word) 7 years ago, and it has made me very wary, so before i will do anything i have to make sure my intentions are completely pure and good otherwise i will wait. and in all honesty it has made me a bit reluctant to do anything other than healing spells.

norseman
30-11-2011, 08:36 AM
Loumoon, just follow the path you feel is right for you. Lots to choose from :smile::hug2:

Lostgirl
30-11-2011, 01:06 PM
You dont have to put a label on it, just be whatever you want to be :D

loumoon
30-11-2011, 02:59 PM
thanks norseman and lostgirl :)

vulkus
30-11-2011, 05:10 PM
I don't say that witch and wiccan are the same. I only trying to tell that witchcraft is something you have to be initated to learn, but there can be witches who have left their coven and follow an other way.
Hmm what about 'hedge witches'? They are witch folk that are not trained in a coven and usually dispense remedies and such. It seems you have but one source to quote from.
Witch is much like the term Sensei. It is a title or position of learning and nothing more. Sensei generally means teacher Dr's, Lawyers, teachers, clergy, etc are considered Sensei.
Same with Witch. Someone who dispenses remedies, heals with pultices and herbs, practices the occult are considered witches. Do not get caught up in a term. The word itself is meaningless, it is the person and their ability that is important.

Chrode
30-11-2011, 05:28 PM
Hmm what about 'hedge witches'? They are witch folk that are not trained in a coven and usually dispense remedies and such. It seems you have but one source to quote from.
Witch is much like the term Sensei. It is a title or position of learning and nothing more. Sensei generally means teacher Dr's, Lawyers, teachers, clergy, etc are considered Sensei.
Same with Witch. Someone who dispenses remedies, heals with pultices and herbs, practices the occult are considered witches. Do not get caught up in a term. The word itself is meaningless, it is the person and their ability that is important.

A witch is a person who practice witchcraft. Nothing more but witchcraft is a practice you can't learn yourself.

norseman
30-11-2011, 07:16 PM
Gardner called his new faith New Witchcraft. When he decided that the model was coven based, he spoke purely for his own group. Don't lose sight of the fact that Gardner was a man of many interests, including business. The reason for the coven model was to imbue the new faith with a degree of exclusivity. In fact, the whole model was designed to increase mysticism to maximise appeal.
Historically [ Prof, Hutton] there is no evidence of covens with both witches and Cunning Folk.
Just to explain the connection, Cunning Folk go back to pre-christian times. Origin of the name is a Saxon word, "Cunnan" - meaning knowing.
Hedge Witches mentioned by Vulkus comes from another Saxon word "Haegtessa" - meaning hedge rider. The old Norse Havamal mentions "hedge riders, witching aloft !"
So, how do Witch and Cunning Folk connect ? Originally, they were identical, just two different words. In the time of the so-called "Witch trials", originally the church tried to eradicate the Cunning Folk with zero success as the countryfolk regarded the Cunning Folk as "far too useful in country life". So, the church demonised the witches and went after them instead. There was a suggestion [probably not true] that the Cunning Folk made the best witch finders. Ultimately, the situation polarised to Witch - slave of Satan [yaddah, yaddah] and Cunning Folk = White Witch.
The true polarity was more witch = urban, Cunning Folk = rural as now.
But nowhere is there any suggestion of covens.
In modern parlance Hedge Witch = Cunning Folk in a modern setting

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=4753

If anyone is interested, I did a much longer piece about the History of Witchcraft in Britain - it was in SF pre-crash.

Occultist
30-11-2011, 07:35 PM
My great Granny was in a coven so was her mother before her it was a grp of woman who would cast laugh drink divination they were wise and funny and feared and loved at the same time. Coven is just a label.

Lostgirl
30-11-2011, 07:37 PM
I wouldnt want to be feared :-s

Occultist
30-11-2011, 07:40 PM
Neither did they but the same people who came to them for help was the same people who was afraid of them. Human nature I guess,

vulkus
30-11-2011, 07:52 PM
I wouldnt want to be feared :-s
Fear is due to lack of understanding. Even when invited to understand fear becomes the limiting factor.
Fear is useful though.

norseman
30-11-2011, 08:14 PM
My great Granny was in a coven so was her mother before her it was a grp of woman who would cast laugh drink divination they were wise and funny and feared and loved at the same time. Coven is just a label.

In Britain, the working group is far more common than the coven. A bunch of solitaries who get together for special occasions.

Occultist
30-11-2011, 10:33 PM
Family is from Ayrshire Scotland.

LadyMoondancer
01-12-2011, 01:45 PM
I know but my point is that they craft is not something you can find i a book. It can only be learned in a coven and you have to be 18.

Chrode, where are you getting your information from?

WHY do you have to be 18?

WHY does it have to learned ONLY in a coven?

WHY must I be initiated?

I'd sure like to know because I've been a witch for 44 years now - starting from when I was 15 - have never been in a coven and have never been initiated. I'm both a Wiccan AND a Witch - and I practice the Craft.

LadyMoondancer
01-12-2011, 01:49 PM
In Britain, the working group is far more common than the coven. A bunch of solitaries who get together for special occasions.

I would have to say that is becoming the norm. There is a website called Meet Up and it's a way for people to "meet up" with others with similar interests. I belong to 3 in my area - one for Witches, one for Pagans (which has a lot of members belonging to both groups) and for one studying Paranormal Activity. Both the Pagan and the Witch group meet up to do rituals, study, or even go out for coffee. The Paranormal group meets to discuss ghost hunting and stay for a nice investigation at one of Buffalo's most haunted sites - Iron Island Museum, which was featured on tv's Ghost Hunters a few years back.

Medium_Laura
01-12-2011, 01:57 PM
Chrode, where are you getting your information from?

WHY do you have to be 18?

WHY does it have to learned ONLY in a coven?

WHY must I be initiated?

I'd sure like to know because I've been a witch for 44 years now - starting from when I was 15 - have never been in a coven and have never been initiated. I'm both a Wiccan AND a Witch - and I practice the Craft.

I'm with you! A witch/Wiccan for over 30 years now.. Never been in a coven either. :)

Occultist
01-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Some covens not all require you to go through a ritual known as the "Great Rite" do to the sexual nature of this practise the covens who use it usually require you to be 18yrs of age or older.

norseman
01-12-2011, 03:04 PM
I think that ritual sex is not a feature of Wicca in the UK - in fact it was one of the reasons for the demise of covens here. But the BIG reason was dictatorial HP/HPS's. Far too much abuse in covens ! Besides which, giving titles is just plain damn silly !

LadyMoondancer
01-12-2011, 04:24 PM
well my other big question is -

if ONLY a witch can initiate another witch - WHO intitiated the first witch?

either Chrode needs to stop quoting Gardner as if Gardner is a god, or stop contradicting himself. Because if Chrode is trying to follow Gardner to the letter, via his books, then say you can't learn witchcraft from a book - I think Chrode needs to figure out what he's trying to say here.

I've got my suspicions. :wink:

norseman
01-12-2011, 06:47 PM
"if ONLY a witch can initiate another witch - WHO intitiated the first witch?"

I have an answer to that. It may not be the right answer but it is mine and I will stick with it.
The first witches were initiated by the spirits of the Earth. Why am I so sure ? Because if you prepared to listen, they are still doing it. I know exactly when and where I was when I was first given my instructions and I have never doubted that voice. :smile:

Occultist
01-12-2011, 06:51 PM
thats beautiful.

loumoon
01-12-2011, 08:56 PM
well my other big question is -

if ONLY a witch can initiate another witch - WHO intitiated the first witch?

either Chrode needs to stop quoting Gardner as if Gardner is a god, or stop contradicting himself. Because if Chrode is trying to follow Gardner to the letter, via his books, then say you can't learn witchcraft from a book - I think Chrode needs to figure out what he's trying to say here.

I've got my suspicions. :wink:

that was what i was trying to say a few posts ago but not as articulated as that haha, i sort of prattled on a bit heehee:redface:

Chrode
02-12-2011, 01:51 PM
Chrode, where are you getting your information from?

WHY do you have to be 18?

WHY does it have to learned ONLY in a coven?

WHY must I be initiated?

I'd sure like to know because I've been a witch for 44 years now - starting from when I was 15 - have never been in a coven and have never been initiated. I'm both a Wiccan AND a Witch - and I practice the Craft.

Sinces i have seen no evidens about selfapointed witches before Wicca i believe that the term "witch" or "modern witch" belongs to Gerald Gardner.
The charge of the goddess say:

"and adore the spirit of me,
who am Queen of all the witches."

"There shall ye assemble,
ye who are fain to learn all sorcery,
yet have not won its deepest secrets"

I don't know why you have to bee 18 to be initated. It is just the rules. I think it have something to do with that a coven don't want to take responsibility for a person opposite he or her parrents since they perform ritual nudity and sex (in some covens). In Denmark where i come from you are authoritative when you become 18.

Witchcraft is a specific magical practice that you can't learn yourself but it is not the only true magical or spiritual path. There exist alot of form of magic forexample sympatic magic, chaos magic, cermonial magic or sex magic.

Chrode
02-12-2011, 01:52 PM
if ONLY a witch can initiate another witch - WHO intitiated the first witch?


The Goddess herself.

Chrode
03-12-2011, 03:25 PM
I belong to a Coven but was taught through my family but still have great respect for solitarys and wiccans.

What coven?

norseman
03-12-2011, 04:48 PM
"Witchcraft is a specific magical practice that you can't learn yourself but it is not the only true magical or spiritual path. There exist alot of form of magic forexample sympatic magic, chaos magic, cermonial magic or sex magic."

It's all one and the same - there is just "magic", the Craft. The power all comes from the Earth. There may be different paths but they all lead to the same source. I practice from the source itself, not one of the Paths. Not something that you can be taught, you can only learn by long experience and the Earth either accepts you or it doesn't. It's as simple as that.

Witchcraft is simply the Craft of the Witch aka Cunning Man/Woman aka Wise Man/Woman aka Medicine Man/Woman aka Shaman aka ........... Gardner was the first to attach his own specific faith to it. Many don't have a specific faith as such. My deity is Mother Earth but I work with local Nature Spirits.

Chrode
03-12-2011, 06:39 PM
"Witchcraft is a specific magical practice that you can't learn yourself but it is not the only true magical or spiritual path. There exist alot of form of magic forexample sympatic magic, chaos magic, cermonial magic or sex magic."

It's all one and the same - there is just "magic", the Craft. The power all comes from the Earth. There may be different paths but they all lead to the same source. I practice from the source itself, not one of the Paths. Not something that you can be taught, you can only learn by long experience and the Earth either accepts you or it doesn't. It's as simple as that.

Witchcraft is simply the Craft of the Witch aka Cunning Man/Woman aka Wise Man/Woman aka Medicine Man/Woman aka Shaman aka ........... Gardner was the first to attach his own specific faith to it. Many don't have a specific faith as such. My deity is Mother Earth but I work with local Nature Spirits.

Witchcraft is a FORM of magic but not all magical practice is witchcraft. Cermoniel magic is not.

vulkus
03-12-2011, 06:41 PM
What coven?
I am sure she won't answer, and if she did, I would speculate it may not be true. It is like asking are you gay or straight, unless your dating that person it is inappropriate.

Chrode, just about eveyone has given evidence of their spiritual and witchery background. What about you?

I am going to formerly ask you, what is your background?
What line are you from, what coven are you from, where did you study and under whom. What did you study and how far along are you.

Also I am with Norseman on this what is your age?

Lostgirl
03-12-2011, 08:25 PM
I dont get why you have to be part of a coven.

I think there is an awful lot of snobbery in not just the witch/wiccan area but the pagan area too. Its such a shame.

Occultist
03-12-2011, 08:38 PM
my family's coven of sister witches. we gather twice a year and keep in touch cause its family its closer then you would believe i will eventually get another here in the states.

Chrode
03-12-2011, 09:10 PM
my family's coven of sister witches. we gather twice a year and keep in touch cause its family its closer then you would believe i will eventually get another here in the states.

Would you call that a coven? I connect a coven as a witchcult leaded bye a highpreistess.

Chrode
03-12-2011, 09:14 PM
I am sure she won't answer, and if she did, I would speculate it may not be true. It is like asking are you gay or straight, unless your dating that person it is inappropriate.

Chrode, just about eveyone has given evidence of their spiritual and witchery background. What about you?

I am going to formerly ask you, what is your background?
What line are you from, what coven are you from, where did you study and under whom. What did you study and how far along are you.

Also I am with Norseman on this what is your age?

It is important to you to know? I don't see what my background have to do with the debate.

Lostgirl
03-12-2011, 09:19 PM
I dont see why it matters if your ina coven or not.

norseman
03-12-2011, 10:46 PM
"It is important to you to know? I don't see what my background have to do with the debate."

It matters so we others don't make unfounded assumptions.
For example, I assumed that you were young and American purely on the grounds that I have had the same "discussion" I had with you with 16 year-old Americans who thought covens were the "Only way" and that studying for a year to be initiated was "a lot of hard work".
I did see in one of your posts that you were from Denmark and my area of England was heavily settled by the Danes, so you could be a cousin many times removed :D

Alchymist
03-12-2011, 10:53 PM
It is important to you to know? I don't see what my background have to do with the debate.

Your background is of vital importance because we all want to know on what authority are you telling the rest of us that we can or can't be witches?

Good Ol' Uncle Gerald was the first to popularise the term WICCA, to mean his own particular take on Goddess religion; he may have been initiated into a pre-existing coven in Southern England, but there is no corroborating evidence for this. He was certainly not the first to use the term "witch" in a positive light; this usage was common back to at least the 1500's and was also not exclusively a derogatory term used by Christians; see, for example, Reginald Scott, "The Discoverie of Witchcraft", 1584, Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus",1604, etc.

It might be fair to say that one cannot be a Gardnerian Wiccan without being initiated into a coven which can trace its lineage all the way back to Gardner; then there are Alexandrian Wiccans who tend to be even more exclusivist than the Gardnerians, despite the fact that it is not known that Alex Sanders was ever initiated by anyone; his claim to have been initiated by his grandmother has never been independently substantiated. There are other lineages that also lay claim to the term Wicca and argue loudly for their own exclusive use of it, but after a while all these arguments begin to sound drearily familiar and alike. "You can't be a Wiccan unless you......yada yada yada." I say let them have their word if they really want it so badly; the rest of us already have a much better one.

Thee word Witch does not belong to Gardner or to anyone else. It is simply not true to say that one can "only" learn Witchcraft through a coven. It probably is true to say that one cannot learn Witchcraft solely from books. Books are a great help, but Witchcraft (in contrast to Wicca, which is a religion) is exactly what it says it is:- a craft; and thus must be learned mainly through practical experience, just like any other craft. One can't learn metalsmithing or woodcarving solely from books either, and much the best way is to find an artisan and become his or her apprentice - but if the artisan is any good at all, he/she will also give you lots of books to read - and if you can't find a human teacher, books are a wonderful way to find information. It'll take you longer to become proficient; but if you apply yourself, and learn from your mistakes, become proficient you will. Exactly the same applies to the Craft of the Witch; read and practise, read and practise, for many, many years. If you can find a coven and an honest High Priest/ess, well, fine; if not, don't sweat it.

The problem, as I see it, with being a member of a coven is that it's fatally easy to become narrow-minded, to believe only what your High Priest/ess tells you and to fall into the trap of deciding that anyone who believes otherwise must therefore be "wrong". This is the way guru-worshipping cults begin, and I'm sure we must all have seen (and tried to avoid) those blank-eyed, zombie-like True Believers handing out pamphlets in bus stations, the sorry exemplars of the "one true faith and everyone else will burn in hell" mindset.

And I guess it's only fair for me to give you something of my own background. I'm a metalworker (apprenticed), a woodworker (mostly from books) and a Witch (initiated into two separate traditions, studied books and magazines and undertaken intense practical work for almost 50 years); also studied ritual magic(k), yoga, meditation, hermeticism, alchemy, sacred geometry, archaeology, UFOlogy, history and science (****c. Geology, M.Sc. Oceanography), written articles for publications as diverse as "Green Egg" and "Yachting Monthly" and annoyed a great many people who claim to have exclusive information about how things really are.

Blessed Be everyone,

Alchymist

norseman
03-12-2011, 11:00 PM
"not all magical practice is witchcraft. Cermoniel magic is not."

Ceremonial Craft is what I would call High Magic in that energy-rich rituals are part of it, following a set procedure.
Whereas I practice Low Magic which is informal and the adept channels Earth energies to achieve their ends.

I think we are tripping up over the word "witchcraft" which is why I dislike it so. Best written as Witch Craft aka Cunning Craft aka Craft of the Wise - all mean the same. Similarly Witch - Magician - Sorcerer - etc, etc - all mean the same.

norseman
03-12-2011, 11:04 PM
"He was certainly not the first to use the term "witch" in a positive light; this usage was common back to at least the 1500's and was also not exclusively a derogatory term used by Christians; see, for example, Reginald Scott, "The Discoverie of Witchcraft", 1584, Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus",1604, etc."

True Alchymist. I have the grimoire dated 1584 by Reginald Scott.

Occultist
04-12-2011, 01:25 AM
Would you call that a coven? I connect a coven as a witchcult leaded bye a highpreistess.
yes we have a high priestess who said we didnt?

Occultist
04-12-2011, 01:28 AM
"not all magical practice is witchcraft. Cermoniel magic is not."

Ceremonial Craft is what I would call High Magic in that energy-rich rituals are part of it, following a set procedure.
Whereas I practice Low Magic which is informal and the adept channels Earth energies to achieve their ends.

I think we are tripping up over the word "witchcraft" which is why I dislike it so. Best written as Witch Craft aka Cunning Craft aka Craft of the Wise - all mean the same. Similarly Witch - Magician - Sorcerer - etc, etc - all mean the same.
100% true. I am a witch I cast spells,hex's,make potions,I have never cursed but if someone harmed mine and my own I would.<-- Wiccan wouldnt.

Chrode
04-12-2011, 01:52 AM
Your background is of vital importance because we all want to know on what authority are you telling the rest of us that we can or can't be witches?

Good Ol' Uncle Gerald was the first to popularise the term WICCA, to mean his own particular take on Goddess religion; he may have been initiated into a pre-existing coven in Southern England, but there is no corroborating evidence for this. He was certainly not the first to use the term "witch" in a positive light; this usage was common back to at least the 1500's and was also not exclusively a derogatory term used by Christians; see, for example, Reginald Scott, "The Discoverie of Witchcraft", 1584, Marlowe's "Doctor Faustus",1604, etc.

It might be fair to say that one cannot be a Gardnerian Wiccan without being initiated into a coven which can trace its lineage all the way back to Gardner; then there are Alexandrian Wiccans who tend to be even more exclusivist than the Gardnerians, despite the fact that it is not known that Alex Sanders was ever initiated by anyone; his claim to have been initiated by his grandmother has never been independently substantiated. There are other lineages that also lay claim to the term Wicca and argue loudly for their own exclusive use of it, but after a while all these arguments begin to sound drearily familiar and alike. "You can't be a Wiccan unless you......yada yada yada." I say let them have their word if they really want it so badly; the rest of us already have a much better one.

Thee word Witch does not belong to Gardner or to anyone else. It is simply not true to say that one can "only" learn Witchcraft through a coven. It probably is true to say that one cannot learn Witchcraft solely from books. Books are a great help, but Witchcraft (in contrast to Wicca, which is a religion) is exactly what it says it is:- a craft; and thus must be learned mainly through practical experience, just like any other craft. One can't learn metalsmithing or woodcarving solely from books either, and much the best way is to find an artisan and become his or her apprentice - but if the artisan is any good at all, he/she will also give you lots of books to read - and if you can't find a human teacher, books are a wonderful way to find information. It'll take you longer to become proficient; but if you apply yourself, and learn from your mistakes, become proficient you will. Exactly the same applies to the Craft of the Witch; read and practise, read and practise, for many, many years. If you can find a coven and an honest High Priest/ess, well, fine; if not, don't sweat it.

The problem, as I see it, with being a member of a coven is that it's fatally easy to become narrow-minded, to believe only what your High Priest/ess tells you and to fall into the trap of deciding that anyone who believes otherwise must therefore be "wrong". This is the way guru-worshipping cults begin, and I'm sure we must all have seen (and tried to avoid) those blank-eyed, zombie-like True Believers handing out pamphlets in bus stations, the sorry exemplars of the "one true faith and everyone else will burn in hell" mindset.

And I guess it's only fair for me to give you something of my own background. I'm a metalworker (apprenticed), a woodworker (mostly from books) and a Witch (initiated into two separate traditions, studied books and magazines and undertaken intense practical work for almost 50 years); also studied ritual magic(k), yoga, meditation, hermeticism, alchemy, sacred geometry, archaeology, UFOlogy, history and science (****c. Geology, M.Sc. Oceanography), written articles for publications as diverse as "Green Egg" and "Yachting Monthly" and annoyed a great many people who claim to have exclusive information about how things really are.

Blessed Be everyone,

Alchymist

The term "witch" was used bye the church. As i understand was a witch a supernatural human who gain her powers from the devil. All magicians, herbskilled, clairvoyants, astrologer, healers and more was burned as "witches". Would you say they are all witches?

Reginald Scott was a writer AGAINST witchcraft. He believe it did not existed.
So why do mention him?

I don't say that the term "witch" belong to Gardner but the term "modern witch". The modern witches have nothing to do with the old traditional "witches". Gardner was the first one in history to use the term "witch" about himself in positive meaning. Therefor i believe that "witchcraft" is something you only can learn in a coven. Witchcraft is the secret practice in Wicca but there are maybe witches who have left their coven and Wicca and find a other way. Therefor i don't see witch and wiccan as the same.

Chrode
04-12-2011, 01:53 AM
yes we have a high priestess who said we didnt?

It is Gardnerian or Alexandrian?

Occultist
04-12-2011, 03:24 AM
my form of Craft is seen as Pictish if it were to be given a lable. if thats what your asking?

Alchymist
04-12-2011, 05:14 AM
Chrode, you are simply repeating the same stuff over and over again and not listening to anyone else.

We still don't know the source of your supposed "authority". Who, or what, gives you the right to tell the rest of us why we can or can't be witches?

If you continue to refuse to answer, we'll simply draw the obvious conclusion; you have none.

Alchymist

Chrode
04-12-2011, 08:45 AM
Chrode, you are simply repeating the same stuff over and over again and not listening to anyone else.

We still don't know the source of your supposed "authority". Who, or what, gives you the right to tell the rest of us why we can or can't be witches?

If you continue to refuse to answer, we'll simply draw the obvious conclusion; you have none.

Alchymist

Why do you not repeat my question?

I remember that Gerald Gardner saying in hes book witchcraft today that only a witch can create an other witch.

Since i don't see any evidens about selfappointed witches before Gardner i believe that Gardner have the one rigth to use the term "modern witch" and as i said... The modern witches have nothing to do with the traditional witches from the burnin time.

Chrode
04-12-2011, 08:51 AM
Chrode, you are simply repeating the same stuff over and over again and not listening to anyone else.

We still don't know the source of your supposed "authority". Who, or what, gives you the right to tell the rest of us why we can or can't be witches?

If you continue to refuse to answer, we'll simply draw the obvious conclusion; you have none.

Alchymist

Why do you not repeat my question?

I remember that Gerald Gardner saying in hes book witchcraft today that only a witch can create an other witch.

Since i don't see any evidens about selfappointed witches before Gardner i believe that Gardner have the one rigth to use the term "modern witch" and as i said... The modern witches have nothing to do with the traditional witches from the burnin time.

norseman
04-12-2011, 10:43 AM
Chrode, listen to me. Nobody is getting at you ! We are trying to persuade you to be more open in your thinking about this whole subject.
Analyse Wicca. It has a core of Old Craft - so nothing new there. That is the witchcraft element of it, as old as the hills !
Surrounding this core are the faith elements which came from Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism, Qabala, The Templars, Druids, and various High Rituals from the Celtic Church. Throw in some teachings from Crowley and there you are. Nothing new in the whole bundle !

Old Craft + Old Rituals and old religious aspects of Nature worship = Nothing new, just a repackaging.
Meanwhile, the Old Ways go from strength to strength, being thoroughly entrenched in wicca. This is a feature of the Cunning Folk - they have always "hidden in plain sight". In medieval times, some even hid in the Catholic Church as priests and used the bible as a source of spells. They were protected from the Witch Hunts by the population who refused to denounce them because of their useful skills in the countryside. Many old churches in England have carvings of pagan gods in their structures - now you know why.

I will be honest. In my opinion, Gardner did us all a disservice by attempting to popularise The Craft and, of course ridiculous films and TV programmes did not help matters.

Oh, before I finish. Scott "claimed" to be anti-witchcraft but was anything but. He very carefully set out spellcasting - bit too keen on demonic spellcasting to my taste. Also be careful of the Burning Times - it did not really happen. All based on very distorted data from a bishop of a small German City [Triers, I think]. The Burnings, a la Inquisition, was mainly heretics , including priests. No burnings in England, some hangings. Salem was just mass hysteria.

So, Chrode, read wider. Read reputable authors, avoiding those with silly made-up names who make claims to be the Grand Witch of This and That. :smile:

Medium_Laura
04-12-2011, 02:13 PM
Chrode, listen to me. Nobody is getting at you ! We are trying to persuade you to be more open in your thinking about this whole subject.
Analyse Wicca. It has a core of Old Craft - so nothing new there. That is the witchcraft element of it, as old as the hills !
Surrounding this core are the faith elements which came from Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism, Qabala, The Templars, Druids, and various High Rituals from the Celtic Church. Throw in some teachings from Crowley and there you are. Nothing new in the whole bundle !

Old Craft + Old Rituals and old religious aspects of Nature worship = Nothing new, just a repackaging.
Meanwhile, the Old Ways go from strength to strength, being thoroughly entrenched in wicca. This is a feature of the Cunning Folk - they have always "hidden in plain sight". In medieval times, some even hid in the Catholic Church as priests and used the bible as a source of spells. They were protected from the Witch Hunts by the population who refused to denounce them because of their useful skills in the countryside. Many old churches in England have carvings of pagan gods in their structures - now you know why.

I will be honest. In my opinion, Gardner did us all a disservice by attempting to popularise The Craft and, of course ridiculous films and TV programmes did not help matters.

Oh, before I finish. Scott "claimed" to be anti-witchcraft but was anything but. He very carefully set out spellcasting - bit too keen on demonic spellcasting to my taste. Also be careful of the Burning Times - it did not really happen. All based on very distorted data from a bishop of a small German City [Triers, I think]. The Burnings, a la Inquisition, was mainly heretics , including priests. No burnings in England, some hangings. Salem was just mass hysteria.

So, Chrode, read wider. Read reputable authors, avoiding those with silly made-up names who make claims to be the Grand Witch of This and That. :smile:

Norseman, I was drown as a witch in France in the 1600s (not sure exact year) I remember it.

Chrode
04-12-2011, 03:32 PM
Chrode, listen to me. Nobody is getting at you ! We are trying to persuade you to be more open in your thinking about this whole subject.
Analyse Wicca. It has a core of Old Craft - so nothing new there. That is the witchcraft element of it, as old as the hills !
Surrounding this core are the faith elements which came from Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism, Qabala, The Templars, Druids, and various High Rituals from the Celtic Church. Throw in some teachings from Crowley and there you are. Nothing new in the whole bundle !

Old Craft + Old Rituals and old religious aspects of Nature worship = Nothing new, just a repackaging.
Meanwhile, the Old Ways go from strength to strength, being thoroughly entrenched in wicca. This is a feature of the Cunning Folk - they have always "hidden in plain sight". In medieval times, some even hid in the Catholic Church as priests and used the bible as a source of spells. They were protected from the Witch Hunts by the population who refused to denounce them because of their useful skills in the countryside. Many old churches in England have carvings of pagan gods in their structures - now you know why.

I will be honest. In my opinion, Gardner did us all a disservice by attempting to popularise The Craft and, of course ridiculous films and TV programmes did not help matters.

Oh, before I finish. Scott "claimed" to be anti-witchcraft but was anything but. He very carefully set out spellcasting - bit too keen on demonic spellcasting to my taste. Also be careful of the Burning Times - it did not really happen. All based on very distorted data from a bishop of a small German City [Triers, I think]. The Burnings, a la Inquisition, was mainly heretics , including priests. No burnings in England, some hangings. Salem was just mass hysteria.

So, Chrode, read wider. Read reputable authors, avoiding those with silly made-up names who make claims to be the Grand Witch of This and That. :smile:

What is your point?

norseman
04-12-2011, 03:46 PM
Obviously, absolutely nothing !

Medium_Laura
04-12-2011, 04:54 PM
What is your point?

I think the point is that you are in a box when it comes to what you know about Wicca and Witches. Maybe you could try reading some other books, looking at some other teachers and widen your perspective of this religion/belief.

There are many teachers in the world. There is no one "right" way to believe. Open your mind Chrode.

Chrode
04-12-2011, 06:01 PM
I think the point is that you are in a box when it comes to what you know about Wicca and Witches. Maybe you could try reading some other books, looking at some other teachers and widen your perspective of this religion/belief.

There are many teachers in the world. There is no one "right" way to believe. Open your mind Chrode.

How can you say that my mind is closed? I asked question to him and he would not repeat...

Occultist
04-12-2011, 07:51 PM
Gardner offers one off shoot of Wicca,. Remember he started writings in 1949 he hung out with crowley and levay it was a different time then and he made a in use a loose term "Hippy type of Religious" craft. He never invented Witchcraft he created some rituals found some and put together a Rede. Garald Gardner's teachings isnt the end all be all teachings or the Craft. Just one Coven's leaders interpretation.
Does it bother me when people tell me there Wiccan I bring up Gerald Gardner and they have no clue who he is? No just a lil taken back

For a Solitary I believe they have the ability to Bless themselves into the fold.

Salt, about one quarter teaspoon.
one glass of Red Wine.
Olive oil, about one-half ounce for anointing.
Black Candle, votive or other.
Burn some Sage. if you cant get sage stick go to grocer spice isle pick up some sage put it some tinfoil in and in your kitchen sink and light it. it will burn with red ember like insence.
spinkle salt on floor.
Drink in the wine the fruit of the Gods.




Read the following aloud:
Bless me, Mother for I am Thy child seeker of the Craft and it knowledge.

Dip the fingers of the right hand into the oil and anoint the eyes:
Blessed Be my eyes, that I may see Thy path of the witch and never stray from it and be wise with my works through intent and purpose.

Anoint the nose:
Blessed Be my nose, that I may breathe Thy essence and inhale the aromatics and potions that may guide me and others on the ways of the Old.

Anoint the mouth:
Blessed Be my mouth, that I may speak of Thee, and the words that come fourth are the words of the Wise and ancient ones.

Anoint the breast:
Blessed Be my breast, that I may be faithful in my works. For they are the representation of nourishment and health.

Anoint the loins:
Blessed Be my loins, which bring forth the Life of humanity as Thou hast brought forth all creation of all and wisdom of all.

Anoint the feet:
Blessed Be my feet, that I may walk in Thy ways. never get lead off the path of the Witch accept me as your own an adopted babe of the wise and give me the wisdom i seek with the ability to use it with only intent and purpose.

Anoint the ears:
Blessed be my ears for they take on not only wisdom but ridicule not only the chantings and workings of thy craft but the hate and cruelity of those who come against me.

anoint the eyes.
Blessed be my eyes to see my path that is ahead of me and see my Faery protectors at work for me and to not only feel the love of the Witches of old but to see them guiding me as well. Keep my eyes sharp from nagative energys things that may come against me to harm me.

Look up: Bless me that I might seek your ways and create my own and bless me for the road is long and your children still are judged. Bless my creativity my love for the Craft and my willingness to learn. Bless me with the wisdom to form my own grimoire/BOS. but it is really a grimoire
to pass down through the ages. Close the spell by standing very still feel the power of the Witches before you come forth and the Faeries dance.
Close with a thank you give an offering something for the Fae something for the Goddess or teacher preferably an apple cut the witches way. so you can see the pantagram. leave on your alter or kitchen saide board for 3 days.

Medium_Laura
04-12-2011, 09:23 PM
How can you say that my mind is closed? I asked question to him and he would not repeat...

It comes from the way you talk about Wicca and Gardner all over the boards. You say "Gardner says this, Gardner says that." Have you read Scott Cunningham? How about Gerina Dunwich? Theresa C. Dintino? There are a ton of authors who talk and teach Wicca and The Craft. You are only quoting one author, which has been said, wrote a book about 60 years ago.

Chrode
04-12-2011, 10:39 PM
It comes from the way you talk about Wicca and Gardner all over the boards. You say "Gardner says this, Gardner says that." Have you read Scott Cunningham? How about Gerina Dunwich? Theresa C. Dintino? There are a ton of authors who talk and teach Wicca and The Craft. You are only quoting one author, which has been said, wrote a book about 60 years ago.

Gardner founded Wicca...

Occultist
04-12-2011, 10:55 PM
Gardner did found wicca so qouting him on wiccan subjects is not a bad thing.
Just sad many people claim wiccan and dont know how founded it or read any of the mans books.

Medium_Laura
05-12-2011, 03:20 AM
Gardner founded Wicca...

No the Lord and the Lady did. Not Gardner. So if we are part of the God and Goddess. The first person to worship and do the rites, were in fact taught by them. They teach me still today.

This is like saying that Christ created Christianity. No, people did. They chose to worship God and included Jesus within it, but why it's called Christianity is really confusing to me. Shouldn't it be God-anity?

norseman
05-12-2011, 08:18 AM
Just to repeat myself -

"Analyse Wicca. It has a core of Old Craft - so nothing new there. That is the witchcraft element of it, as old as the hills !
Surrounding this core are the faith elements which came from Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism, Qabala, The Templars, Druids, and various High Rituals from the Celtic Church. Throw in some teachings from Crowley and there you are. Nothing new in the whole bundle !

Old Craft + Old Rituals + old religious aspects of Nature worship = Nothing new, just a repackaging."

Gardner did not found wicca ! It already existed for millennia.

Chrode
06-12-2011, 09:51 PM
No the Lord and the Lady did. Not Gardner. So if we are part of the God and Goddess. The first person to worship and do the rites, were in fact taught by them. They teach me still today.

This is like saying that Christ created Christianity. No, people did. They chose to worship God and included Jesus within it, but why it's called Christianity is really confusing to me. Shouldn't it be God-anity?

Jesus is the founder of Christianity. Christianity started as a cult like Wicca. The bible is wroted around 300 years later after Jesus dead.
I agree with you that the lord and lady "founded" Wicca but Gardner was the human who revealed there message together with Doreen Valiente.

Chrode
06-12-2011, 09:54 PM
Just to repeat myself -

"Analyse Wicca. It has a core of Old Craft - so nothing new there. That is the witchcraft element of it, as old as the hills !
Surrounding this core are the faith elements which came from Golden Dawn, Rosicrucianism, Qabala, The Templars, Druids, and various High Rituals from the Celtic Church. Throw in some teachings from Crowley and there you are. Nothing new in the whole bundle !

Old Craft + Old Rituals + old religious aspects of Nature worship = Nothing new, just a repackaging."

Gardner did not found wicca ! It already existed for millennia.

Alot of the rituals in Wicca is from Golden Dawn.

vulkus
07-12-2011, 12:48 PM
Jesus is the founder of Christianity. Christianity started as a cult like Wicca. The bible is wroted around 300 years later after Jesus dead.
I agree with you that the lord and lady "founded" Wicca but Gardner was the human who revealed there message together with Doreen Valiente.
Jesus didn't found xtianity, god did. Jesus was just the messenger, which the Romans metaphorically shot.
The bible is a collection of books, it isn't just one book. In xtianity there is no source book, it has been written and re-written many times throughout the centuries. If you want the source maybe the Tora is it, I am sure Occultist would be a better authority on this than I.

I am not a witch nor do I practice witchcraft, nor am I a wiccan. I follow no rede and I have but one credo.
I am a weaver and I tend the great tapestry and the threads therein.
I may do whatever I wish,
to whomever I wish, when I wish.
As I wish at any time.
As long as I accept responsibility for all my actions,
or any harm that arises from inaction where I could have intervened yet chose not to.

Bluegreen
07-12-2011, 04:18 PM
I am a weaver and I tend the great tapestry and the threads therein.

"I'm going now to look at the tapestry. It's so beautiful. It's metallic; made of metal threads and they're just gorgeous. They glimmer and shine. [A sudden intake of breath.] And it looks like it breathes. It's like...it is alive. I mean it just undulates and sparkles. Some of the strands glisten, and others are kind of dull. ... Nothing on Earth could ever be compared to it. ... And the guardian says that each thread represents a life.
[...]
...it makes a beautiful design. An eternal design. And...I can see the world beyond that.
[...]
It illustrates perfectly how each life is interwoven, crossing and touching all these other lives until eventually all of humanity is affected. The absolute oneness of humanity is represented by the tapestry....Each one cannot exist without the other...
[...]
There are greens, blues, reds, yellows, oranges and blacks. Yeah, there are even a few black ones in there. The black ones stand out because they don't seem to go as far as the other colors do. Hmmm. That's strange.
[...]
[The guardian says] The black are special for they have chosen a very unusual path. ... there is no negativity in this tapestry. The black ones have chosen an unusual way of manifesting. From Between Death and Life by Dolores Cannon

LadyMoondancer
07-12-2011, 07:07 PM
Your background is of vital importance because we all want to know on what authority are you telling the rest of us that we can or can't be witches?
Alchymist

THANK you Alchymist.
I've been away for a few days because I've been busy slaving at work. worked two 12 hour shifts Friday and Saturday, off Sunday, worked two 12 hours shifts Monday and Tuesday. -- I'm POOPED!

I don't want to get into any kind of arguement. - but here goes - if Chrode is saying he believes Gardner "received" the Charge FROM the Goddess (as Mohamed received the Koran) that's cool. Me, I believe that I am a WITCH and a WICCAN because of the Goddess. I don't need another person telling me that I cannot be this, or that, when I know in my heart that is my calling.

I received a calling in 1978 and did not recognize it, but She was patient with me. I had already been studying the occult and metaphysics for about 10 years, and am still reading and studying and learning.

This does not make the right to tell anybody how to conduct their spiritual life.

I will say for the record - I don't believe for one minute that you MUST be initiated by another person. Because I wasn't. As Norseman said that he remembers exactly when it happened to him, I remember exactly when it happened to me. And because I was with Selket - I may not have recognized it at the time - and I would wonder why - but when it finally "hit" me as to what happened - I had no doubt what my path would be. And to who and what I was.

LadyMoondancer
07-12-2011, 07:15 PM
I think it would be a mistake to regard the Craft like a recipe book. It is much more than just knowledge which can be taught.
In my opinion, I am not sure if "knowledge" is the right word to use. There is an Emotional content and Mental disciplines which can only come from experience. The Craft is not about dogmatic rituals and robes and titles [compare with the Catholic Church], it is more about ways of thinking and feeling, and life-styles. Given that so-called "Magic" is the channeling and directing of natural Earth energies and that channeling/directing is a mental discipline, it calls into question your relationship with the Earth. If you don't get that right, you can chant and dance in a circle to the end of time to no avail.
I don't follow a Path, I seek to become part of the Path. I don't seek to "own" the Land, it owns me. I am not the master but the servant.

Now, I do know that many wiccans reject the Craft part and concentrate purely on the Spiritual/Religious aspects, and there is no problem with that.
Wicca is a gentle faith with many redeeming features and can stand on it's own feet.

"How would you learn it without initating into a coven?" You learn by experience, by doing !

THANK you Norseman - you have said here everything that I wanted to say.

LadyMoondancer
07-12-2011, 07:30 PM
I don't follow guidelines from a book. I just give you facts that witchcraft is something you can't learn yourself. It can only be learned bye initating into a coven. As i remember Gardner say "only a witch can create an another witch". Be in pact with nature have nothing to do with witchcraft. Many pagans do that. The practice of magic don't make you a witch but a magician just...

um Chrode, you ARE following guidelines from a book - you keep shoving Gardner and his book at us.

And being part of Nature has EVERYTHING to with witchcraft - because in witchcraft, you are raising energy to change things - energy from NATURE.

NATURE is EVERYTHING. From the Big Bang - from the smallest hydrogen atom to the most complex molecule - your own body is made of chemicals - chemicals and molecules that were synthesized in the cores of stars many eons ago and spread out thru the Cosmos - the smallest blade of grass by undergoing the process of photosynthesis is using a star's energy to convert carbon dioxide into oxygen. All plant-life does this. Then we have the beginnings of the food chain - from the smallest algae to the largest carnivore - all plants and animals feed on each other. When we take in sustenance, our bodies convert that matter into energy - we breathe in air - our lungs distribute the oxygen into the bloodstream, where the blood uses it. We "burn" calories - we are using NATURE to CHANGE matter (food and air) into molecules that our bodies can use and live off.

And so do ANY practitioners of ANY path of magic does - take NATURAL energies to affect a CHANGE.

NATURE IS EVERYTHING - it is NOT just plantlife or the change of seasons -
once you learn that, everything else falls into place.

LadyMoondancer
07-12-2011, 07:52 PM
What is your point?

rof****!

O Lord, you gave them eyes, but they cannot see.

I think we have a reincarnation of Gardner himself! Who just keeps trying to shove pablum down our throats. :kermit:

Actually, Chrode, I think you could have a career in politics. You are the quintessential politician. You speak with a forked tongue, contradicting yourself. When you are pressed for an answer, you come right back with another question to cloud the issue. You ask for people's input, then either disregard their position or tell them they are wrong. You ask people what coven they are in but when pressed for YOUR credentials, you cloud the issue and petulantly ask Why should I give you my credentials, I am the Master - you don't need to see my credentials. :icon_salut:

I'm done. Have a Blessed Day and Blessed Be :hug3:

Chrode
07-12-2011, 10:29 PM
um Chrode, you ARE following guidelines from a book - you keep shoving Gardner and his book at us.

And being part of Nature has EVERYTHING to with witchcraft - because in witchcraft, you are raising energy to change things - energy from NATURE.

NATURE is EVERYTHING. From the Big Bang - from the smallest hydrogen atom to the most complex molecule - your own body is made of chemicals - chemicals and molecules that were synthesized in the cores of stars many eons ago and spread out thru the Cosmos - the smallest blade of grass by undergoing the process of photosynthesis is using a star's energy to convert carbon dioxide into oxygen. All plant-life does this. Then we have the beginnings of the food chain - from the smallest algae to the largest carnivore - all plants and animals feed on each other. When we take in sustenance, our bodies convert that matter into energy - we breathe in air - our lungs distribute the oxygen into the bloodstream, where the blood uses it. We "burn" calories - we are using NATURE to CHANGE matter (food and air) into molecules that our bodies can use and live off.

And so do ANY practitioners of ANY path of magic does - take NATURAL energies to affect a CHANGE.

NATURE IS EVERYTHING - it is NOT just plantlife or the change of seasons -
once you learn that, everything else falls into place.

The definition of magic. the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in conformity with Will
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magick

I talk about being in pact with the forrest.

Chrode
07-12-2011, 10:32 PM
THANK you Alchymist.
I've been away for a few days because I've been busy slaving at work. worked two 12 hour shifts Friday and Saturday, off Sunday, worked two 12 hours shifts Monday and Tuesday. -- I'm POOPED!

I don't want to get into any kind of arguement. - but here goes - if Chrode is saying he believes Gardner "received" the Charge FROM the Goddess (as Mohamed received the Koran) that's cool. Me, I believe that I am a WITCH and a WICCAN because of the Goddess. I don't need another person telling me that I cannot be this, or that, when I know in my heart that is my calling.

I received a calling in 1978 and did not recognize it, but She was patient with me. I had already been studying the occult and metaphysics for about 10 years, and am still reading and studying and learning.

This does not make the right to tell anybody how to conduct their spiritual life.

I will say for the record - I don't believe for one minute that you MUST be initiated by another person. Because I wasn't. As Norseman said that he remembers exactly when it happened to him, I remember exactly when it happened to me. And because I was with Selket - I may not have recognized it at the time - and I would wonder why - but when it finally "hit" me as to what happened - I had no doubt what my path would be. And to who and what I was.

You don't understand anything do you..? I'm not here to tell you that you should change your faith or you path but i'm trying to tell you that you path can be wrongly named.

LadyMoondancer
07-12-2011, 11:51 PM
You don't understand anything do you..? I'm not here to tell you that you should change your faith or you path but i'm trying to tell you that you path can be wrongly named.

I understand a lot more than you think I do. :wink:

Occultist
08-12-2011, 08:26 AM
quick tip dont believe everything posted on wikipedia.. Just saying

Lostgirl
08-12-2011, 08:30 AM
quick tip dont believe everything posted on wikipedia.. Just saying

Surely that applies to everything lol, Wikipedia especially. Its the first thing we were all told at uni is that Wiki is not a reliable source. What was worrying is that some people actually though it was :S

norseman
08-12-2011, 08:45 AM
Dead right Lg ! You would not believe the number of under-grads I had turning in assignments with great slabs of wiki in them. :D

Lostgirl
08-12-2011, 08:47 AM
Its worrying!!!! The people who did use it got an instant fail basically but dear me they still tried to defend it!

norseman
08-12-2011, 08:51 AM
I used to award a mark which was split between the student and wiki. They soon got the point :D

norseman
08-12-2011, 08:53 AM
"i'm trying to tell you that you path can be wrongly named."

Chrode, names are just a human conceit. What do you imagine The Path calls itself ? :smile:

Occultist
08-12-2011, 09:20 AM
Surely that applies to everything lol, Wikipedia especially. Its the first thing we were all told at uni is that Wiki is not a reliable source. What was worrying is that some people actually though it was :S
Just was a quick tip because info on wikipedia is so <No words can discribe>.
If they wish to its there right to but I am saying its not all 100% truth in there. LOL

LadyMoondancer
08-12-2011, 11:23 AM
"i'm trying to tell you that you path can be wrongly named."

Chrode, names are just a human conceit. What do you imagine The Path calls itself ? :smile:

to quote a well known Englishman:

"That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet."

My path is my path. I know what it is. I know what it's named. Besides, why does anybody care what I call it or myself?

I am a Witch. I am a Wiccan. And I'm a Pagan. End of debate. (for me at least, I am happy with my chosen path and what I call it.)

If anyone else has a problem with what I call myself, that just it - THEIR problem.
oh yeah - in my old age now, (all crinkled up at ripe old age of 59) I do not consider myself a "crone" or a "hag" - I call myself QUEEN. heh heh. :icon_queen:

norseman
08-12-2011, 12:42 PM
"all crinkled up at ripe old age of 59"

Mere slip of a girl :D:D

Finnster
08-12-2011, 01:11 PM
It's interesting you folks are getting into the debate of "name". I have had several discussions over the last coupla months about the absolute necessity to name everything out there.

Personally, I pull from several paths to mold my own which includes mostly Wiccan influences. Do I call myself a Witch? No. Do I call myself a Pagan? Yes. Names are just words that contain a certain image when spoken or used to describe something. Just be comfortable with what you believe and the rest will fall into place. In my humble opinion, having faith in something is more important that trying to categorize it under a name.

Keep on believing!!! :-)

vulkus
08-12-2011, 01:17 PM
BG You stated it better than I could have :)

THANK you Alchymist.
I've been away for a few days because I've been busy slaving at work. worked two 12 hour shifts Friday and Saturday, off Sunday, worked two 12 hours shifts Monday and Tuesday. -- I'm POOPED!

I don't want to get into any kind of arguement. - but here goes - if Chrode is saying he believes Gardner "received" the Charge FROM the Goddess (as Mohamed received the Koran) that's cool. Me, I believe that I am a WITCH and a WICCAN because of the Goddess. I don't need another person telling me that I cannot be this, or that, when I know in my heart that is my calling.

I received a calling in 1978 and did not recognize it, but She was patient with me. I had already been studying the occult and metaphysics for about 10 years, and am still reading and studying and learning.

This does not make the right to tell anybody how to conduct their spiritual life.

I will say for the record - I don't believe for one minute that you MUST be initiated by another person. Because I wasn't. As Norseman said that he remembers exactly when it happened to him, I remember exactly when it happened to me. And because I was with Selket - I may not have recognized it at the time - and I would wonder why - but when it finally "hit" me as to what happened - I had no doubt what my path would be. And to who and what I was.
I was born in to my path, I have always known I know now, and I will always know beyond this day. I have seen my thread and know the direction it will take.
I know the threads of others also, except those that are hidden from my view.
We are all born the same except some awaken while others do not, and some others still live a lucid dream.

Lostgirl
08-12-2011, 01:28 PM
Awaken to what? Or from what?

vulkus
08-12-2011, 02:33 PM
From the long slumber, to the true life.

Occultist
08-12-2011, 03:21 PM
to quote a well known Englishman:

"That which we call a rose, by any other name would smell as sweet."

My path is my path. I know what it is. I know what it's named. Besides, why does anybody care what I call it or myself?

I am a Witch. I am a Wiccan. And I'm a Pagan. End of debate. (for me at least, I am happy with my chosen path and what I call it.)

If anyone else has a problem with what I call myself, that just it - THEIR problem.
oh yeah - in my old age now, (all crinkled up at ripe old age of 59) I do not consider myself a "crone" or a "hag" - I call myself QUEEN. heh heh. :icon_queen:
To be perfectly honest to be called a Crone in a compliment.

Witchcraft I think I understand the point he is trying to make. I mean if I said I was a Satanist would it make me one if I never fallowed the left hand ways?
Witchcraft is not a religion it is a way of life its spell casting and weaving its nature its grimoire's that have been past down through generations.
If you are a Witch and have cast spells and magic weaved and walk the darkened path then that is awesome.
But yes I think also that people get stuck up on labels.

vulkus
08-12-2011, 07:17 PM
Labels are important: However could you tell your Lemon butter from mustard when the jars are sealed?

LadyMoondancer
09-12-2011, 12:40 PM
Labels are important: However could you tell your Lemon butter from mustard when the jars are sealed?

point well taken vulkus! lol. :hug2:

LadyMoondancer
09-12-2011, 12:42 PM
"all crinkled up at ripe old age of 59"

Mere slip of a girl :D:D

why thank you kind sir! :hug2:

LadyMoondancer
09-12-2011, 12:49 PM
It's interesting you folks are getting into the debate of "name". I have had several discussions over the last coupla months about the absolute necessity to name everything out there.

Personally, I pull from several paths to mold my own which includes mostly Wiccan influences. Do I call myself a Witch? No. Do I call myself a Pagan? Yes. Names are just words that contain a certain image when spoken or used to describe something. Just be comfortable with what you believe and the rest will fall into place. In my humble opinion, having faith in something is more important that trying to categorize it under a name.

Keep on believing!!! :-)
well said Finnster. I just don't like when people say that I am not ALLOWED to such and such name or label because I didn't do this, or I didn't do that - when they themselves are contradicting themselves. After a few sessions of such a debate (and I've been there before) - I just give up. Because in actuality, they have as much right to their opinion as I do to mine.

LadyMoondancer
09-12-2011, 12:58 PM
To be perfectly honest to be called a Crone in a compliment.

Witchcraft I think I understand the point he is trying to make. I mean if I said I was a Satanist would it make me one if I never fallowed the left hand ways?
Witchcraft is not a religion it is a way of life its spell casting and weaving its nature its grimoire's that have been past down through generations.
If you are a Witch and have cast spells and magic weaved and walk the darkened path then that is awesome.
But yes I think also that people get stuck up on labels.

ehh, I just don't like the word Crone. Queen suits me much better.

and yes, I have cast spells and weaved magick. Hence my label as witch.
I am studying herbs and such and my lifework is a healer. I work in a hospital tending to the sick. I am not a doctor, or even a registered nurse, but a nurses' aide, doing hands-on patient care. In my work setting, I cannot advise anyone to any kind of herbal remedy or even to take an aspirin. But off work, I can discuss herbs and their remedies as long as I advise someone to check with their physician first. As I do with mine before I try a herbal remedy.

I do follow the religion aspect of the Neo- Modern - post-Gardner thingy called Wicca. I have no conflict between the two.

Occultist
09-12-2011, 05:17 PM
Thats awesome if you ever want to know what magical qualitys certain herbs or plants or botanicals have we can discuss it. I love to use potions I weave other ways also but potions are my favorite its how my Gma taught me.

loumoon
09-12-2011, 07:43 PM
wow ive been away a few days and ive missed a right good debate!! lol. everything everyone is saying to chrode now, was said quite a few pages back, he wouldnt listen then and wont listen now. he has his opinion and thats totally fine, i personally think chrode that you need to open your mind a bit, but you are hurting no one by not doing so, so carry on and be happy doing what you are doing.

i feel like i know absolutely nothing when i listen to you all chat about this book and that book and the history of wicca/witch craft, it completely baffles me at times. i dont understand why everything needs a name or a history in order to be true, i havent been initiated, i felt a pull many years ago then stopped studying as something happened to me, then i recently felt a calling again, it was indescribable and i couldnt ignore it anymore. i hold my hands up i know very very little of the history, i cant quote lines from peoples books, but i know how i feel and i know that i have to pursue this...whatever the name may be, as it feels right. i dont have a name or label for it, i am listening and observing and practising and it feels right to me. i enjoy reading everyone elses comments on here it makes me realise there is so so much out there that i havent even touched upon yet and thats exciting to me. your such a knowledgable bunch :)

Chrode
09-12-2011, 08:04 PM
I respect your faith but i still have seen no evidens that shows that you can learn witchcraft without initiating. I'm still waiting...

Occultist
09-12-2011, 08:19 PM
Good to hear Loumoon I hate labels myself and if you practise the old ways and anointed yourself as a witch and follow the darken path then I welcome you as a Sister no questions asked.
If you ever have any questions about The craft you wanna ask me feel free.
I probably have a spell or Hex,ritual,potion or poppet etc,for just about anything LOL.

loumoon
10-12-2011, 12:32 AM
chrode i do not claim to be part of witch craft so i dont think i need initiating. i am a servant to nature and that does not initiate any one.

the only thing i want occultist is to be happy, i want to be at one with nature and all that that encompasses. i ask only for what i deserve and want to give back so much more. i need to calm my mind to give me time to meditate if anyone has any tips to help me calm my mind i would appreciate it xx

Occultist
10-12-2011, 03:25 AM
then your more of a Naturist ? No spells no rituals you just enjoy nature?
That would be neither Wiccan or Witch it would be more of a spirtualist focusing on nature and calming meditation.

LadyMoondancer
10-12-2011, 04:01 AM
I respect your faith but i still have seen no evidens that shows that you can learn witchcraft without initiating. I'm still waiting...

WHY are you waiting? Are our answers that important to you? Why?
but here comes my answer. First - you have it backwards. You don' learn witchcraft simply by someone doing a ritual over you. That event only takes about an hour? NO, you learn the witchcraft (or at least the basics) BEFORE intiation. - or as conducted by those who say so. Witches are not going to take somone off the street, initiate them and an hour later they have learned it. Isn't the "traditional" way mean you study it for "a year and a day?"

How do you know that I didn't learn my witchcraft from another witch or the goddess herself? Why do I, or other members here have to justify ourselves to you? did Gardner die and leave you boss?

moving right along --

Faith is the ability to believe in the invisible, without question, without evidence.

Chrode in another post you said you believe that the goddess initiated Gardner - so how do you NOT know without evidence that the goddess initiated ME?

Can YOU prove with evidence, that the goddess is not teaching ME (or others), the way she taught Gardner?

Your very statement here is contradictory - you say you respect my/our faith, yet continue to badger us.

'fess up now, you're really a bible thumper playing games with us "evill ones." because you have come up with NO evidence of yourself of being a lover of the goddess. You have been asked several times for your credentials, you give none, yet continue to confront us with our beliefs and argue. your very statement here shows you are just here for the sake of trying to trip up us because you had it all wrong.

norseman
10-12-2011, 08:06 AM
"i am a servant to nature and that does not initiate any one."

Loumoon, the Spirits of Nature will initiate you :smile: Place is a major help in meditation, Loumoon. Find a "green" place, preferably beside running water.

norseman
10-12-2011, 08:11 AM
then your more of a Naturist ? No spells no rituals you just enjoy nature?
That would be neither Wiccan or Witch it would be more of a spirtualist focusing on nature and calming meditation.

Much, much more than that Occultist ! I have been a Servant of Nature for decades. Cunning Folk and the modern equivalent, Hedge Witches - all Servants of Nature ! I/We work with the ancestors and local Nature Spirits to guard and preserve the Land, spiritually and physically.

norseman
10-12-2011, 08:16 AM
Spot on, LadyM ! I was initiated by Nature. Why do I need someone with a silly title in a coven of dubious lineage !

loumoon
10-12-2011, 09:54 AM
thanks norse man wise as ever :) could someone please tell me a little more about local spirit guides? i think that was what was mentioned a few posts back, sorry if i have worded it wrong.

occultist, i do practice basic spells, not very often at the minute because getting quiet time with 3 kids, 2 of which are very young is very difficult, so i am spending my time reading and meditating and trying to learn as much as i can. it helps to come on here and listen to everyone as it makes me realise everyone is following a different path and i think thats really good

norseman
10-12-2011, 11:47 AM
thanks norse man wise as ever :) could someone please tell me a little more about local spirit guides? i think that was what was mentioned a few posts back, sorry if i have worded it wrong.

Loumoon, :hug2: It will require a degree of wandering in the "green". The local spirits need to "get to know you" - it helps to meditate in the "green".
Now this could just be a quiet corner of your garden, does not have to be a Wild Place like I wander although the Wild is richer. Needs your intuition here but you may find yourself drawn to particular spots over and over. These may be places of Power which were sought by our ancestors so long ago. One thing I can promise is that, when it happens and you are accepted by the spirits, you will be in no doubt of it ! Ask LadyM, she has had the call too. :smile:

Now, a place to look. A forum devoted to nature spirits which you may find of use in your quest.
http://fairytastic.ning.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Ffairytastic.ning.com%2 F)

and in SF too http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=26204

Lostgirl
11-12-2011, 04:12 PM
I respect your faith but i still have seen no evidens that shows that you can learn witchcraft without initiating. I'm still waiting...

This is just more Wicca snobbery! This is why people find it off putting to try and learn wicca/witchcraft!

I echo everything evryone has already said in that, i need no one to tell me who i am, or initiate me! I know who and what i am without some silly person with a title they have apparently earnt to tell me that i already know! Who initiated the first???

I remember when i realised who i was, when it "came" to me, that is when i was initiated.

Chrode
11-12-2011, 07:05 PM
This is just more Wicca snobbery! This is why people find it off putting to try and learn wicca/witchcraft!

I echo everything evryone has already said in that, i need no one to tell me who i am, or initiate me! I know who and what i am without some silly person with a title they have apparently earnt to tell me that i already know! Who initiated the first???

I remember when i realised who i was, when it "came" to me, that is when i was initiated.

What does i have to do with "snobbery"?

Lostgirl
11-12-2011, 08:36 PM
Its the whole you cant learn witchcraft without being initiated rubbish. You see it all the time. I dont see how on earth it makes a difference personally.

Chrode
11-12-2011, 09:28 PM
Its the whole you cant learn witchcraft without being initiated rubbish. You see it all the time. I dont see how on earth it makes a difference personally.

Why do you have to call yourself a witch? Why not magician or pagan?
Al things you se in other books are eklectic neo-paganisme and cermonial magic and there is nothing wrong with that!

Lostgirl
11-12-2011, 09:30 PM
Im not a magician, i dont pull rabbits out of hats (mainly because it would hurt their ears) and that its illusion not the craft. I do call myself pagans to those who dont know better. I also dont HAVE to call myself a witch, i dont agree with labels i personally think they end up restricting people, when i call myself a witch its mainly because its the closest to what i believe and what i follow so it makes it easier for other people not me.

Chrode
11-12-2011, 09:33 PM
Im not a magician, i dont pull rabbits out of hats (mainly because it would hurt their ears) and that its illusion not the craft. I do call myself pagans to those who dont know better. I also dont HAVE to call myself a witch, i dont agree with labels i personally think they end up restricting people, when i call myself a witch its mainly because its the closest to what i believe and what i follow so it makes it easier for other people not me.

Witchcraft is not a belief but a practice. And a magician is one who practice magick. You can also call yourself a sorcerer. Magician/sorcerer... Same thing.

Lostgirl
11-12-2011, 09:37 PM
There are beliefs in witchcraft, but yes it is a practice.
When i hear the word magician i imagine a man on stage pulling flowers out of his sleeve.......

Chrode
11-12-2011, 09:39 PM
There are beliefs in witchcraft, but yes it is a practice.
When i hear the word magician i imagine a man on stage pulling flowers out of his sleeve.......

But it is not... Witchcraft is not about beliefs but practices only.

Occultist
11-12-2011, 09:55 PM
Well we believe in our self and our spells and energys to pull from. Other then that like the belief in a diety depending on that deity it would my guess be Wicca cause Wicca is a religion Witchcraft is a way of life.

Chrode
11-12-2011, 10:26 PM
Well we believe in our self and our spells and energys to pull from. Other then that like the belief in a diety depending on that deity it would my guess be Wicca cause Wicca is a religion Witchcraft is a way of life.

Witchcraft is not a way of life it is only a specific magical practice. There are no beliefs and morals in it.

Lostgirl
11-12-2011, 10:41 PM
And that is where you are wrong

Chrode
11-12-2011, 10:55 PM
And that is where you are wrong

I'm afraid to say it is opside down. :)

Lostgirl
12-12-2011, 07:49 AM
Its completely subjective. There are have already been other people who have said witches have beliefs. There are so many different "types" of witches. I know i have morals and i also have beliefs. Just because i have those doesnt mean im not a witch. From what i have learnt and from the people i have learnt it from there are many beliefs in Witchcraft and many morals.

Chrode
12-12-2011, 12:44 PM
Its completely subjective. There are have already been other people who have said witches have beliefs. There are so many different "types" of witches. I know i have morals and i also have beliefs. Just because i have those doesnt mean im not a witch. From what i have learnt and from the people i have learnt it from there are many beliefs in Witchcraft and many morals.

Listen to me. Witchcraft is practices not beliefs. There can exist atheistic witches.

norseman
12-12-2011, 03:18 PM
Craft of the Witch - write it this way and then there is no confusion. Craft are the collective practices. All "Witches" have a faith of one sort or another.

Occultist
12-12-2011, 05:42 PM
Craft of the Witch - write it this way and then there is no confusion. Craft are the collective practices. All "Witches" have a faith of one sort or another.
Yes but not in a diety. Faith in ouselves faith in who we are faith in what we do faith in our weaving faith in energy faith in emotions, But Witchcraft boils down to a way of life not a faith in a Diety now you can be a Witch and follow a diety but! It is not required for casting or weaving.

Occultist
12-12-2011, 05:44 PM
Listen to me. Witchcraft is practices not beliefs. There can exist atheistic witches.
That I believe might be pushing it. Because if Athiest have belief in nothing really then they couldnt weave cause they simply wouldnt believe in what there doing is even possible. Now if you mean without a Diety then yes that is common.

Lostgirl
12-12-2011, 09:35 PM
Listen to me. Witchcraft is practices not beliefs. There can exist atheistic witches.

Equally there can exist witches with beliefs....

Chrode
12-12-2011, 09:43 PM
Equally there can exist witches with beliefs....

Yes and witches with not. :wink:

norseman
12-12-2011, 09:57 PM
It is possible to have a faith that is nothing to do with a deity. One can have faith in Nature, one can have faith in the Powers of the Four Elements. These are not deities, they are guiding principles !

Can you have faith in a principle ? :D That's a question for a Buddhist.

Occultist
13-12-2011, 06:00 AM
Equally there can exist witches with beliefs....
but that would have nothing to do with the fact there a witch.

Occultist
13-12-2011, 06:02 AM
Witchcraft is not a way of life it is only a specific magical practice. There are no beliefs and morals in it.
wrong its a way of life that is taught the practises and spell weaving of a witch and the teachings from the familys are indeed a way of life. There are no diety beliefs and no morals you are correct that is up to the individual.

Lostgirl
13-12-2011, 01:36 PM
Yes and witches with not. :wink:

So you agree they can do.....

I agree with Norsey, just because it isnt faith or belief in a deity it doesnt mean its not a belief.

I also say that i have morals. If i were to label myself i am a witch but i have morals about it.:tongue: :tongue:

Occultist
13-12-2011, 05:30 PM
But your personal belief system and or moral values has nothing to do with you being a Witch it has to do with you being human.

Lostgirl
13-12-2011, 09:41 PM
But my beliefs and morals make me the witch i am

Occultist
13-12-2011, 09:55 PM
no you make you the witch you are. The craft has nothing to do with morals. But I understand what you getting at.
But witchcraft has no rede or rules except for the ones we make ourselfs my spell casting is more Intent and Purpose yours might be something different and so on. But Morals has nothing to do with the craft itself.

vulkus
13-12-2011, 10:07 PM
Chrode: You've been asked numorous times before and yet you still refuse to tell. What is your background? What have you studied and where and with whom.
Why did you choose that path?

I find it obscene that you post disparaging remarks about everyone else's belief systems. Yet reveal none of your own.
You continually question everyone about what they believe and what they know and yet, you give nothing of yourself.
Everything for you is Gardner, gardner, gardner (marsha, marsha, marsha) he says this, he says that, he therefore is the font of all knowledge.
You refuse to listen to solid evidence and solid arguments when presented to you.
If you would but listen to what others are saying and consider their arguments you may learn something. But you won't.
No doubt you will say "How is this relevant".
I am going to remove myself from this debate because it isn't one. As far as I am concerned, your a noob, and you are attempting to justify your own position by 'trying' to distort the position of others.

(disclaimer) this is not a personal attack, just a personal remark.

Occultist
13-12-2011, 10:50 PM
Chrode: You've been asked numorous times before and yet you still refuse to tell. What is your background? What have you studied and where and with whom.
Why did you choose that path?

I find it obscene that you post disparaging remarks about everyone else's belief systems. Yet reveal none of your own.
You continually question everyone about what they believe and what they know and yet, you give nothing of yourself.
Everything for you is Gardner, gardner, gardner (marsha, marsha, marsha) he says this, he says that, he therefore is the font of all knowledge.
You refuse to listen to solid evidence and solid arguments when presented to you.
If you would but listen to what others are saying and consider their arguments you may learn something. But you won't.
No doubt you will say "How is this relevant".
I am going to remove myself from this debate because it isn't one. As far as I am concerned, your a noob, and you are attempting to justify your own position by 'trying' to distort the position of others.

(disclaimer) this is not a personal attack, just a personal remark.

I think Chrode maybe direct but I dont think he means harm or trolling.
Wicca is a religion based on old ways and created by Gerald Gardner.
Now he doesnt need to reveal his religion or tell you what his faith is just for stating that. In your defense Chrode could be a bit more subtle but I believe thats his nature. I dont think he was trying to get a rise out of anyone and if anyone knows there religion this shouldnt be threating but a time to show your heart and spirit and passions about what you believe in. I think its a good thing cause it brings more light to what peoples faiths are and where they base it from. Take this as a opportunity to show yourself and what you believe.
If you believe you are in fact Wiccan but never read Gerald Gardners books or feel it necessary then just say so let your faith guide you dont be defensive show him another side of your beliefs and faith.
You have the right to believe you are in fact anything. Blood was shed for that right so wear it with honor.
Blessings to you all.

norseman
14-12-2011, 09:20 AM
Chrode, tell us about Wicca in Denmark. Is it widespread ? As I told you before, my part of England was heavily settled by Danes in the Dark Ages, adding to the Celts, Anglo-Saxons, and Norse. Given that Denmark was a pagan country like Britain, I wondered if it still lives on like in Britain. :smile:

LadyMoondancer
14-12-2011, 12:14 PM
I think Chrode maybe direct but I dont think he means harm or trolling.
Wicca is a religion based on old ways and created by Gerald Gardner.
Now he doesnt need to reveal his religion or tell you what his faith is just for stating that. In your defense Chrode could be a bit more subtle but I believe thats his nature. I dont think he was trying to get a rise out of anyone and if anyone knows there religion this shouldnt be threating but a time to show your heart and spirit and passions about what you believe in. I think its a good thing cause it brings more light to what peoples faiths are and where they base it from. Take this as a opportunity to show yourself and what you believe.
If you believe you are in fact Wiccan but never read Gerald Gardners books or feel it necessary then just say so let your faith guide you dont be defensive show him another side of your beliefs and faith.
You have the right to believe you are in fact anything. Blood was shed for that right so wear it with honor.
Blessings to you all.

I will try to keep this in mind Occultist. :icon_flower:

Raymond
14-12-2011, 12:25 PM
I think it is always better to use words like ~"my view is " or "I beleive " or at least give a reference or link to your source when "telling" someone they are wrong.

I think its always important to understand that you yourself may be wrong ~ even Gods have been known to lie.

Bless Raymond :smile:

Chrode
14-12-2011, 10:18 PM
Chrode: You've been asked numorous times before and yet you still refuse to tell. What is your background? What have you studied and where and with whom.
Why did you choose that path?

I find it obscene that you post disparaging remarks about everyone else's belief systems. Yet reveal none of your own.
You continually question everyone about what they believe and what they know and yet, you give nothing of yourself.
Everything for you is Gardner, gardner, gardner (marsha, marsha, marsha) he says this, he says that, he therefore is the font of all knowledge.
You refuse to listen to solid evidence and solid arguments when presented to you.
If you would but listen to what others are saying and consider their arguments you may learn something. But you won't.
No doubt you will say "How is this relevant".
I am going to remove myself from this debate because it isn't one. As far as I am concerned, your a noob, and you are attempting to justify your own position by 'trying' to distort the position of others.

(disclaimer) this is not a personal attack, just a personal remark.

I'm a wiccan so i believe in Gardners teachings like christians believe in Jesus and muslim in Muhammed. However i don't se Gardner as a god but he was a witch and witches (witch mean "wise one" in oldenglish) in my beliefs are messengers of the Goddess. Therefor i think that you have to be initiated to become a witch since that is the law of the Goddess. It is not the same as a sorcerer or magickcrafter.

As i said many times.. I'm not here to tell people that they should reject their faith. I would never do that. I'm just telling that if they don't follow the teachings of Gerald Gardner they are per definition NOT a wiccan and a witch.

norseman
15-12-2011, 08:40 AM
Chrode, picture a tree in your mind. The tree has an old solid trunk still thriving and sturdy - this is the root stock of Cunning/Wise Folk [and thousands of other names over the millenia ] going back into pre-history, the accumulated wisdom of the ages and the ancestors.
Near the top of the tree is a new branch which draws it's "sap", it's life and vitality from the roots and trunk - this is Wicca. It's not the only new branch, there are other off-shoots, all following a different shape.
Looking at the tree as a whole, there is much diversity and difference in the way each branch has developed. This is the strength of the tree. We should be celebrating the "whole tree", not high-lighting our differences. :smile:

LadyMoondancer
15-12-2011, 09:34 AM
I'm a wiccan so i believe in Gardners teachings like christians believe in Jesus and muslim in Muhammed. However i don't se Gardner as a god but he was a witch and witches (witch mean "wise one" in oldenglish) in my beliefs are messengers of the Goddess. Therefor i think that you have to be initiated to become a witch since that is the law of the Goddess. It is not the same as a sorcerer or magickcrafter.

As i said many times.. I'm not here to tell people that they should reject their faith. I would never do that. I'm just telling that if they don't follow the teachings of Gerald Gardner they are per definition NOT a wiccan and a witch.

you're still mixing up a wiccan and a witch.
and you're still contradicting yourself. You say "..I don't see Garner as a god" but then you say "if they don't follow the teachings of Gerald Gardner they are per definition NOT a wiccan and a witch."

by your second sentance you ARE saying that Gardner is the end-all and be-all of the definitions of wiccan and witch. And I don't buy that.

A witch DOES perform witch CRAFT - MAGICK - therefore a witch IS a magickcrafter. And I've been crafting magick for almost 30 years and have NOT been initiated. I am a Wiccan and a Witch. end of story.

As Norsey points out in the allegory of the tree - there are many branches of the whole. A xian can be a Catholic, a Baptist, a Methodist, a Lutheran. And follow Christ. A Moslem can be Sunni or Shiite and follow Mohamed.
I don't HAVE to follow Gardner - I can follow Ray Buckland, I can follow Scott Cunningham, I can follow Alex Sanders, and STILL be a Wiccan. Hell, I'll even follow Silver Ravenwood if I want - you need to RESPECT that. I follow my heart and my goddess - and that should be good enough for you.
You need to stop asking us questions then declaring us wrong when we give an answer that doesn't fit your narrow definitions. - for example you say "I'm not here to tell people that they should reject their faith." But then you say "I'm just telling that if they don't follow the teachings of Gerald Gardner they are per definition NOT a wiccan and a witch." - so in essence you are saying that MY faith is all wrong. You are saying that I am NOT a wiccan and a witch. Therefore, if I'm not a wiccan and witch as per GARDNER'S (and yours) definition, I'm all wrong.

okay, have it your way. if it makes you happy to say LadyMoondancer is not a witch because she doesn't follow Gardner and Chrode's advice and definitions - then be at peace with it. lol, because LadyMoondancer KNOWS what she is, and where she got her knowledge from, and is not impressed with Garderian/Chrodian snobbery.

Lostgirl
15-12-2011, 11:33 AM
Well said! I KNOW what i am, i dont need gardner to tell me, nor do i need to be initiated!

Well said my dear!

norseman
15-12-2011, 11:57 AM
:D Essentially, I don't read books :D [apart from Hutton and Wilby obviously]

vulkus
15-12-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm a wiccan so i believe in Gardners teachings like christians believe in Jesus and muslim in Muhammed. However i don't se Gardner as a god but he was a witch and witches (witch mean "wise one" in oldenglish) in my beliefs are messengers of the Goddess. Therefor i think that you have to be initiated to become a witch since that is the law of the Goddess. It is not the same as a sorcerer or magickcrafter.

As i said many times.. I'm not here to tell people that they should reject their faith. I would never do that. I'm just telling that if they don't follow the teachings of Gerald Gardner they are per definition NOT a wiccan and a witch.
OK Chrone I think I understand where you are both coming from and going to. Thank you for informing me, I'll desist with commenting unless it is something particular to my interest.

Chrode
15-12-2011, 04:42 PM
you're still mixing up a wiccan and a witch.
and you're still contradicting yourself. You say "..I don't see Garner as a god" but then you say "if they don't follow the teachings of Gerald Gardner they are per definition NOT a wiccan and a witch."


I don't contradicting myself. It is YOU who don't understand....


A witch DOES perform witch CRAFT - MAGICK - therefore a witch IS a magickcrafter. And I've been crafting magick for almost 30 years and have NOT been initiated.


A witch is a magickcrafter but not all magickcrafters are witches.


I am a Wiccan and a Witch. end of story.


If you don't believe in the Goddess and God described bye Gardner you are not wiccan. If you not are initiated you are not a witch. End of story.

Animus27
15-12-2011, 05:22 PM
If you don't believe in the Goddess and God described bye Gardner you are not wiccan.
Agreed.

If you not are initiated you are not a witch. End of story.
Depends. Some witchcraft traditions emphasize that one must be initiated (several strands of more old-school Wicca do tend to be initiation based), while others tend to be less formal and individualistic. Since there is no definition that captures the vast usage of the word "witch" in it's entirety, it's rather hasty to say that one must be initiated to call oneself a witch. Because there are traditions that don't believe that, and yet use the word witch to describe themselves. So, it's not so much "end of story" as the beginning of one. :D

Raymond
15-12-2011, 05:38 PM
Here is an interesting quote for the few Wiccans who have not read Gardner’s works ........

“First I must make it clear - I am a humble member of a coven, I am not its head or leader in any way, and I have to do what I am told.
People often speak as if I owned a coven and could call it up to perform for them in public. I can and have occasionally introduced people to a witch, when the witch was willing and agreeable. More than this I cannot do.”

From Witchcraft Today By Gerald B. Gardner 1952

Bless, Raymond :smile:

LadyMoondancer
15-12-2011, 05:57 PM
I don't contradicting myself. It is YOU who don't understand....



A witch is a magickcrafter but not all magickcrafters are witches.



If you don't believe in the Goddess and God described bye Gardner you are not wiccan. If you not are initiated you are not a witch. End of story.

I didn't say that ALL magickcrafters are witches.

and this is going nowhere. I don't believe in Gardnerian/Chrodian snobbery. I've been a wiccan/witch since probably before you were born.

You are talking as if a Catholic is not a xian, just because a Protestant said so. And that's why there were so many deaths in Ireland, and elsewhere thru-out history. Religious wars get started just like this. "If you don't belive in the EXACT same thing that I do OR the "human" that I follow - you are wrong."
Look what you just wrote - you are telling me that I am not what I am.
But - like I said - if it makes you happy to belive your snobbery, I bow to the great Chrode and will continue to practice my Wiccan and Witchery in my ignorant bliss. lol.

Chrode
15-12-2011, 06:18 PM
I didn't say that ALL magickcrafters are witches.

and this is going nowhere. I don't believe in Gardnerian/Chrodian snobbery. I've been a wiccan/witch since probably before you were born.

You are talking as if a Catholic is not a xian, just because a Protestant said so. And that's why there were so many deaths in Ireland, and elsewhere thru-out history. Religious wars get started just like this. "If you don't belive in the EXACT same thing that I do OR the "human" that I follow - you are wrong."
Look what you just wrote - you are telling me that I am not what I am.
But - like I said - if it makes you happy to belive your snobbery, I bow to the great Chrode and will continue to practice my Wiccan and Witchery in my ignorant bliss. lol.

http://wicca.cnbeyer.com/fluffy.shtml
Thats what i suspect you are...

norseman
15-12-2011, 06:32 PM
Chrode you do yourself no favours here -
"Think picking up one book on Wicca ever makes them Wiccan."
"Think speaking a few words out of a book"

The author is rather dubious. I have mentioned several times that UK wicca and US wicca are NOT the same animal.
I am guarding my words very carefully and not saying what I really think !

Occultist
15-12-2011, 06:37 PM
Chrode you do yourself no favours here -
"Think picking up one book on Wicca ever makes them Wiccan."
"Think speaking a few words out of a book"

The author is rather dubious. I have mentioned several times that UK wicca and US wicca are NOT the same animal.
I am guarding my words very carefully and not saying what I really think !
well said Norseman.

Chrode
15-12-2011, 08:02 PM
Chrode you do yourself no favours here -
"Think picking up one book on Wicca ever makes them Wiccan."
"Think speaking a few words out of a book"

The author is rather dubious. I have mentioned several times that UK wicca and US wicca are NOT the same animal.
I am guarding my words very carefully and not saying what I really think !

There is no such thing as "UK wicca" or "US wicca". Wicca is Wicca.

Lostgirl
15-12-2011, 08:16 PM
But they are very different on the two continents

norseman
15-12-2011, 08:19 PM
"There is no such thing as "UK wicca" or "US wicca". Wicca is Wicca. "

You are wrong there. The American covens have gone a different route, forming different interpretations and have diverged a lot from the original.
Search wiki for "America Wicca".
In principle I agree with you but in the real world, this difference has happened. Slowly but surely, the UK is going away from Gardner/Wicca and returning to the "old ways".
Dont lose sight of the fact that wicca is based on British culture and heritage and history - a powerful foundation !

Chrode
15-12-2011, 09:13 PM
"There is no such thing as "UK wicca" or "US wicca". Wicca is Wicca. "

You are wrong there. The American covens have gone a different route, forming different interpretations and have diverged a lot from the original.
Search wiki for "America Wicca".
In principle I agree with you but in the real world, this difference has happened. Slowly but surely, the UK is going away from Gardner/Wicca and returning to the "old ways".
Dont lose sight of the fact that wicca is based on British culture and heritage and history - a powerful foundation !

Interpretations like what...?

loumoon
15-12-2011, 10:55 PM
Generall, they find one book, author or website and follow it as if it were the holy word, frequently denouncing anything that disagrees with it as obviously false. Fluffy Bunnies rarely get past the defense of "Because [insert favorite author here] says so." Sometimes they don't even get that far, responding to any and all criticism with something like, "You're just trying to persecute me!"

i copied and pasted this from the link you claimed that ladymoondancer was.

ring any bells?????

norseman
16-12-2011, 08:53 AM
Interpretations like what...?

Christian Wicca for a start. Google "Wicca in America" and take a look.
Here is just one example http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=45341.

vulkus
16-12-2011, 10:43 AM
There is no such thing as "UK wicca" or "US wicca". Wicca is Wicca.
This is kind of like saying english is english and everywhere it is the same. Not true.
There is UK English, US English, Au English, International English. Each are from the same root language, but different in syntax and grammar.
For example our US counterparts spell these words without the 'U'. Color and honor. Where as in Australia and UK we spell it colour and honour.
US
realization, color, honor, flavor
Au
realisation, colour, honour, flavour

In Au we have jam which is a fruit spread, usually without chunks of fruit, we have conserve which is jam with chunks of fruit.
Jelly is not jam here, it is a desert made from gelatine and water with a flavour added.
When we go to the bathroom we shower or bath and wash our hands.
Putting a toilet in your bathroom is an american concept and a completely irrational one.
Although in the UK I believe they have a WC or water closet.

In the US they systematically destroyed the english language and made up their own. So as not to be part of the British empire, or remotely related to it.
As for education, we go to primary school 6 yrs, then high school 6 yrs. Then we go to a TAFE (Technical and Further Education) for further education up to Diploma level. For a degree and up we go to University. A college is just a fancy name for a high school.

So in short wicca is not wicca, as English is not English.

Occultist
16-12-2011, 02:33 PM
This is True, I cannot ask for a light by asking for a F** in the US because that word here means homosexual.
If I were to tell my American friends to come on over I am making Spotted **** and roasted Tatties there is a good chance my friends would tell me there sick that evening LOL.
I had a date a while back and decided I would cook for us because I love cooking I made Mushy peas and Banger Sandwiches and fried tatties.
The guy kept laughing when I said its a Banger Sanwich I had honestly no clue what it translated here to.
We pronounce Herb's Herb's not Erbs unless the person is French.
If I said romantically in a mans ear here come on give us a Snog. The guy would be at a loss to what I am asking. This is only a few things that doesnt translate through cultures.
Funny story I was checking out of a the Grocer store and a young man behind the counter said your accent is amazing and I blushed and said thank you, He asked politely where I was from I said Scotland. He smiled and said well Ma'am you speak very well for someone that came here from a foreign country how long have you been speaking English!!?? /face palm..

Chrode
16-12-2011, 02:46 PM
Christian Wicca for a start. Google "Wicca in America" and take a look.
Here is just one example http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=45341.

I tried to google it and found nothing. Wicca is Wicca but the Charges are interprated differents like the bible and quran is. Religion is a ideology and ideologies don't changes.

Lostgirl
16-12-2011, 03:38 PM
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=american+wicca&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=omXrTsqIHOiP4gSr1cHpCA

I googled american Wicca and if you look to the fourth result down it tells you all about it.

I then googled british wicca and here are the results!
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=american+wicca&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=omXrTsqIHOiP4gSr1cHpCA#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb%3AIE-Address&source=hp&q=british+wicca&pbx=1&oq=british+wicca&aq=f&aqi=g1g-v3&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=37417l38871l0l40015l7l5l0l0l0l3l252l874l0.4 .1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6acbe3b58fd74454&biw=1366&bih=609

Chrode
16-12-2011, 03:56 PM
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=american+wicca&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=omXrTsqIHOiP4gSr1cHpCA

I googled american Wicca and if you look to the fourth result down it tells you all about it.

I then googled british wicca and here are the results!
http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=american+wicca&sourceid=ie7&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb:IE-Address&ie=&oe=&redir_esc=&ei=omXrTsqIHOiP4gSr1cHpCA#sclient=psy-ab&hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-gb%3AIE-Address&source=hp&q=british+wicca&pbx=1&oq=british+wicca&aq=f&aqi=g1g-v3&aql=1&gs_sm=e&gs_upl=37417l38871l0l40015l7l5l0l0l0l3l252l874l0.4 .1l5l0&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=6acbe3b58fd74454&biw=1366&bih=609

Do you believe in it? :)

Lostgirl
16-12-2011, 03:58 PM
I believe there are huge differences between the two. They are two very different cultures so why wouldnt it be different. I have also met american wiccans and they are what i define as fluffy. I myself am not wiccan so im not a believer in many things wiccan.

Chrode
16-12-2011, 04:06 PM
I believe there are huge differences between the two. They are two very different cultures so why wouldnt it be different. I have also met american wiccans and they are what i define as fluffy. I myself am not wiccan so im not a believer in many things wiccan.

I'm sorry to say but you are wrong. Wicca is Wicca. Ideologies don't changes just because the culture.

Lostgirl
16-12-2011, 04:11 PM
Then why ask? If all you are going to do is say im wrong?

It is my opinion that it is different, my experiences have shown that its different and that is what i base things on. Im entitled to my own opinion and becuase it is that MY OPINION it cant be wrong because its just my view on things. You can disagree with it but then you have your head so far up Garners backside that you dont know where you start and he finishes!

So in conclusion, i feel that there are differences between the two :)

Chrode
16-12-2011, 04:17 PM
Then why ask? If all you are going to do is say im wrong?

It is my opinion that it is different, my experiences have shown that its different and that is what i base things on. Im entitled to my own opinion and becuase it is that MY OPINION it cant be wrong because its just my view on things. You can disagree with it but then you have your head so far up Garners backside that you dont know where you start and he finishes!

So in conclusion, i feel that there are differences between the two :)

What you feel have nothing to do with facts...

norseman
16-12-2011, 04:25 PM
Ideologies don't changes just because the culture.

That statement shows your deep ignorance about the nature of Culture. Culture is everything !