What is "unknowing"?

[Xan]

Some spiritual teachers speak of a state of 'unknowing', in which our old ways of knowing this and that are left behind, which may not sound so appealing to our ordinary mind. But in this we become aware in a new expansive way.

This poem from Saint John of the Cross speaks to my heart and I share it here with you.

Xan


Stanzas concerning an ecstasy experienced in high contemplation.


I entered into unknowing,
and there I remained unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

1. I entered into unknowing,
yet when I saw myself there,
without knowing where I was,
I understood great things;
I will not say what I felt
for I remained in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

2. That perfect knowledge
was of peace and holiness
held at no remove
in profound solitude;
it was something so secret
that I was left stammering,
transcending all knowledge.

3. I was so 'whelmed,
so absorbed and withdrawn,
that my senses were left
deprived of all their sensing,
and my spirit was given
an understanding while not understanding,
transcending all knowledge.

4. He who truly arrives there
cuts free from himself;
all that he knew before
now seems worthless,
and his knowledge so soars
that he is left in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

5. The higher he ascends
the less he understands,
because the cloud is dark
which lit up the night;
whoever knows this
remains always in unknowing
transcending all knowledge.

6. This knowledge in unknowing
is so overwhelming
that wise men disputing
can never overthrow it,
for their knowledge does not reach
to the understanding of not
understanding,
transcending all knowledge.

7. And this supreme knowledge
is so exalted
that no power of man or learning
can grasp it;
he who masters himself
will, with knowledge in
unknowing,
always be transcending.

8. And if you should want to hear:
this highest knowledge lies
in the loftiest sense
of the essence of God;
this is a work of his mercy,
to leave one without
understanding,
transcending all knowledge.


`

[Xan]

And this....


Do you really want to hear
More words about…
More descriptions of…

Or is it enough to sit in this Radiance
And Breathe Bliss.

Knowing nothing,
I have nothing to say.
I can only Share this Mystery
This Great Unknowing
This Unbearable Beauty.

At the risk of knowing just one thing
I will say this much…
This Ecstasy…
It's…
You.

What you are,
Before the world arises, and after
Before “you” arise, and after
Your Nature
Bliss.

How uncomfortable
To speak even that.
As if I know anything
About anything
Whatsoever.

Maybe, if I whisper…
Without speaking….

It's…
You.



- Chuck Hillig, from http://stillnessspeaks.com (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fstillnessspeaks.com)

`

[Miss Hepburn]

Very beautiful quotes!

It reminded me of something I posted on another forum yesterday about
understanding the nature of God, but starting at zero: (unknowing)

"...we must understand the nature of God....
If we could put aside all books, including the Bible and live with but one question in our mind, "What is God?" meditating day and night on this question, ulimately, God Itself would reveal the answer.
We would have to do this with a mind completely free of
all concepts of God.
We would not accept anyone else's opinion, anyone else's experience or anyone else's point of view:
We would have our own experience of God.
If we could do that, we should find that, sooner or later, God would reveal Itself to us in such unmistakable terms that never again would we have any doubt as to what God is or how to pray."


Joel S. Goldsmith, "Practicing the Presence"

I hope this was ok to insert - I don't think it veers too much off...
:smile:
I love that you stayed, Xan. :hug:

[Xan]

...live with but one question in our mind, "What is God?"


Yes, I like this from Joel Goldsmith.

It goes along with the core question of Self Inquiry... "Who am I?"

which leads to the same non-conceptual, wholly experiential answer.

The only difference is, in this question we find there's no distance or difference between the "I" that I truly Am, and "God".


Xan

[BlueSky]

The first one really spoke to me Xan and honestly I could have wrote that myself.
Beautifully post!
James

[Xan]

You do not need to understand this or have any particular experience.
Recognising this is beyond understanding or experience.
This is a realisation or recognition of what you are
beyond who you think you are.

You could say that this recognition is like a ‘bridge’ between time and timelessness.
Just for a moment in time it is seen that there is no time.
In that moment there is no one recognising anything.
Blank.

A moment of no thought and no labeling, understanding or owning the experience.
A timeless moment where all the boundaries fall away and there is no separation.

Something has been affected in a way that you can not put your finger on.
Nothing is different but at the same time everything has changed.


- Unmani

[BlueSky]

You do not need to understand this or have any particular experience.
Recognising this is beyond understanding or experience.
This is a realisation or recognition of what you are
beyond who you think you are.

You could say that this recognition is like a ‘bridge’ between time and timelessness.
Just for a moment in time it is seen that there is no time.
In that moment there is no one recognising anything.
Blank.

A moment of no thought and no labeling, understanding or owning the experience.
A timeless moment where all the boundaries fall away and there is no separation.

Something has been affected in a way that you can not put your finger on.
Nothing is different but at the same time everything has changed.


- Unmani


I really like and relate to the last 2 lines especially. In fact, I would share that my mind was clever enough to try and put a finger on it and I fell for it....lol

But now I am wiser.............:wink:
The mind NEEDS to grasp onto something.................where not knowing is more like free-falling.

[Xan]

this recognition is a continual losing,

a timeless free-falling of no-one into nothing


- Unmani

[BlueSky]

this recognition is a continual losing,

a timeless free-falling of no-one into nothing


- Unmani

And although that can sound scary......the feeling is of being present and alive because when the mind is not grasping, it has also let go of who it tries to believe you are.
With nothing or no one to 'know' who you are, all that is left is "being"!

Of course the mind doesn't go away and years of conditioning keep us from "being" all the time. It is a process even after this realization I find.

[Xan]

And although that can sound scary......the feeling is of being present and alive because when the mind is not grasping, it has also let go of who it tries to believe you are.
With nothing or no one to 'know' who you are, all that is left is "being"!

Of course the mind doesn't go away and years of conditioning keep us from "being" all the time. It is a process even after this realization I find.
Yes... at some points it is terrifying to be nothing nowhere... until you notice how delicious it is.

Indeed, the process after realization is surrender... allowing each bit of the clinging, identifying mind to merge into pure beingness... to dissolve into love itself.


Xan

[BlueSky]

Yes... at some points it is terrifying to be nothing nowhere... until you notice how delicious it is.

Indeed, the process after realization is surrender... allowing each bit of the clinging, identifying mind to merge into pure beingness... to dissolve into love itself.


Xan


I love the way you put that. It has been my lesson of the week for me and these words wrap it all up nicely. :smile:
I will remember them.......especially the use of the word "allowing" in this context.:hug3:

[Xan]

:hug3:


Exactly!


Xan

[Xan]

The mind NEEDS to grasp onto something.................


I let my mind's attention hold on in my breathing.

At least it's not thinking... :wink:


Xan

[BlueSky]

The mind NEEDS to grasp onto something.................


I let my mind's attention hold on in my breathing.

At least it's not thinking... :wink:


Xan

I agree and actually I have been thinking about this just this morning.
It is a good way to stay present while taking a shower by putting your mind on, let's say, the smell of the soap.
It seems to be a good practice until it becomes more natural but other than that it seems a little phoney to me. I can't really explain why.
Maybe it's my way of being lazy............:smile:

[Xan]

Any practice is a little phoney, of course.
I'm just interested in what works...
to keep my attention in the present presence.


Xan

[moke64916]

All of what you speak of Xan reminds me of the Book of Tao. Or however you say it. It cannot be described or known but exists. Thats what your thread reminds me of.

[moke64916]

Xan I stopped taking my adderall for ADD and it feels like starting spirituality all over again. It's kind of fun, cause I know what to do. This time it's without the meds. I find it a fun game to achieve full awareness yet again. Masteries purposely manifest thoughts so they can start it all over again. That's what I'm doing. It's wierd to think of past and future when I'm used to staying in the Now. It's harder to break ADD without the meds, but I'm doing it.

Awareness yes, the gateway to your natural state.

I've learned that trying doesnt work and doing nothing doesn't work. It takes little effort and acceptance of what is. That's it.

Xan it can be described when you 'are' the indescribable. That's where all the answers lie. A lot of people get stuck in the silence essence of being, but there is much more than where current masters and teachers are at. If you are that silence you will unveil much truth at a rapid pace. Evolution in fast motion. That's all what spirituality is. Evolution and nothing more.

[Neville]

One can circumvent this unknowing in it's entirity by never having had a clue in the frst place....works for me anyway. Un learning somethng is so much easier when it is understood that all personal development is garnered through the individual alone. It becomes apperent how biased that is. Everything is what it is, our interpretation of it is often where thngs get a little less clear.

I think this is why absolute truth is so much a difficult concept for me. because I am hard wired to put my own slant on it, to see it from my position.

[Silver]

One can circumvent this unknowing in it's entirity by never having had a clue in the frst place....works for me anyway. Un learning somethng is so much easier when it is understood that all personal development is garnered through the individual alone. It becomes apperent how biased that is. Everything is what it is, our interpretation of it is often where thngs get a little less clear.

I think this is why absolute truth is so much a difficult concept for me. because I am hard wired to put my own slant on it, to see it from my position.


??When I went to quote this, the part in pink was the only words showing (what happened?) It made more sense when it was just that sentence, which is what I've experienced. I was going to simply say, 'Ahhh, bliss!' and still am~*
:confused: :angel5:

[Humm]

I suspect that the process exists for a purpose - the process.

[hybrid]

imo, the process precedes the purpose.

[Humm]

imo, the process precedes the purpose.

Yes - a true paradox and miracle, isn't it. :D

[hybrid]

Yes - a true paradox and miracle, isn't it. :D
paradox cannot exists in nature, paradox is a mind confused. hehe

[Humm]

paradox cannot exists in nature, paradox is a mind confused. hehe

I agree completely.

[Xan]

If you're talking about process as the evolving creation of consciousness, I'm with you.


Xan

[Xan]

Neville: One can circumvent this unknowing in it's entirity by never having had a clue in the frst place....works for me anyway.

Neville, are you being humorous or serious about circumventing the unknowing? ... I mean conscious or unconscious.


Un learning somethng is so much easier when it is understood that all personal development is garnered through the individual alone.

We see this differently. For me the universe is entirely interactive and none of us is really alone.


I think this is why absolute truth is so much a difficult concept for me. because I am hard wired to put my own slant on it, to see it from my position.

Yes, this is the human mind that knows stuff... but doesn't know what is beyond that personal slant.


Xan

[Xan]

`
from the Tao Te Ching, at moke's suggestion:


Without opening your door
you can open your heart to the world.

Without looking out your window
you can see the essence of the Tao.

The more you know
the less you understand.

The Master arrives without leaving,
see the light without looking,
achieves without doing a thing.


- Tao Te Ching, translation by Stephen Mitchell

[Humm]

If you're talking about process as the evolving creation of consciousness, I'm with you.


Xan

Ultimately, yes, exactly. Realized, Aware, Wise, Loving, Compassionate, Connected, Consciousness.

[Thinker108]

When we know that what we know is the main obstacle in the spiritual path, we know the unknown. What we know? What is our little knowledge? We are intelligent? Are other animals not having intelligence? We need to unknown. We need to be empty. We need to be like a child who doesn’t know that he knows or not.

[Mr Interesting]

Why?

The lizards that live around me delight in knowing me as they dance across my path and scurry through obstacles.

Is their knowing unknowing or is their unknowing knowing?

Or is it their unknowing unknowing my knowing?

Are you unknowing your own knowing so that you may transcend to a higher knowing and then to a further unknowing.

Because, because, because, because... because of the wonderful things he does!!!

[God-Like]

Some spiritual teachers speak of a state of 'unknowing', in which our old ways of knowing this and that are left behind, which may not sound so appealing to our ordinary mind. But in this we become aware in a new expansive way.

This poem from Saint John of the Cross speaks to my heart and I share it here with you.

Xan




Hi Xan .

My mum (lol) has always maintained that the less we know about anything the better .

We can only know within mind when our Intellectual aspect of the mind Is satisfied with what we know Is to be true In the moment .

Of course at any one level of knowing there Is perhaps always the potential for our perception to change and then know that what we thought we knew wasn't quite right .

Nothing can flow when we hold on to what we think we know Is right .

But these knowings are stepping stones that lead to not knowing .

At this point of not knowing - One possibly doesn't give two hoots If they know anything or not ha haha because In order to know anything there Is still a connection to the Intellect .

I think what we are - can know - no-thing .

x daz x

[Miss Hepburn]

Pretty exceptional mother, daz.

[Xan]

Why?

The lizards that live around me delight in knowing me as they dance across my path and scurry through obstacles.

Is their knowing unknowing or is their unknowing knowing?

Lizzies and other animals never fell into the trap that humans did, of thinking they know it all, or need to...
so their knowing is also unknowing without the identity of "I know."


Xan

[Xan]

My mum (lol) has always maintained that the less we know about anything the better .

Nothing can flow when we hold on to what we think we know Is right .

But these knowings are stepping stones that lead to not knowing .

At this point of not knowing - One possibly doesn't give two hoots If they know anything or not ha haha because In order to know anything there Is still a connection to the Intellect .

Yah, Daz... Maybe your mum is sort of like me...
Know what is useful and drop all the rest.

And yes... it's holding on to being right
and to the intellect as one's identity
that keeps us trapped...
unaware of the freedom and joy of silent unknowing.


Xan

[BlueSky]

If I may share:

It's not that 'we' don't know or that 'we' can't know. It's that the mind, which is doing the knowing and unknowing cannot know or unknow anything in regards to that which is beyond knowing/beyond itself... which really means that which is hidden behind minds thought of who it thinks 'we' are.
There is nothing you can do about this because 'we' also are our minds.
That is until the realization comes. An awakening of life/you to that which it is and always was behind the thought that it was something else.
Why this happens, the mind doesn't know anymore than it doesn't know anything else related to this.
As Unmani says......this unknowing is not an 'attitude' adopted by the mind as truth. It can try and do that but it isn't adopted by any part of you.
You cannot know un-knowing.

[moke64916]

Hi Xan .

My mum (lol) has always maintained that the less we know about anything the better .

We can only know within mind when our Intellectual aspect of the mind Is satisfied with what we know Is to be true In the moment .

Of course at any one level of knowing there Is perhaps always the potential for our perception to change and then know that what we thought we knew wasn't quite right .

Nothing can flow when we hold on to what we think we know Is right .

But these knowings are stepping stones that lead to not knowing .

At this point of not knowing - One possibly doesn't give two hoots If they know anything or not ha haha because In order to know anything there Is still a connection to the Intellect .

I think what we are - can know - no-thing .

x daz x
And with that loss in identity you discover what you have been all along. The silence essence of being underneath the mental noise that is loving.

[hybrid]

paradox cannot exists in nature, paradox is a mind confused. hehe

I agree completely.
but there is of course the mystery of existence.

[Papa Bear]

Maybe the Earth Mothers nature, gives us the greatest variation of lessons regarding how life can flow in harmony, without needing to know anything more than the moment it breathes.

[blackraven]

Xan - When I read "Dark Night of the Soul, Living Flame of Love" about 15 years ago I was in a deep state of 'unknowing' myself and that's why I turned to that book. I studied it and highlighted half the book, writing notes on every page. You would have thought I was going to be tested on it. But that's how I felt at the time. I felt like I had reached a spiritual dryness and in order to dig my way back out of my own hole I had to unlearn everything I'd learned. It was terrifying to be nowhere. But to tell you the truth, there was something that felt cleansing and real about "being" without a safety net. The stanzas you quoted brought back memories of a very contemplative time. I spent a year going over that book repeatedly with a fine tooth comb. I still have it in my bed stand as a reference book. Thanks Xan for jogging my memory and reminding me of a time of painful growth.

Blackraven

[moke64916]

Based on my experience I disagree with using the word unknowing. It is far from not knowing. It's remembering. Unknowing sounds mysterious and boring with no feelings. I'm just saying is you see that unknowing that can be known through visions and feelings than it is a knowing. In order to remember these universal truths and all knowing you have to see yourself for who you truly are. And have the wisdom to know the difference of what and what is not an identification with mind. I'm just saying your truths get deep at a rapid pace when your experience is not an unknowing. That's just my experience.

PS: A feeling, a presence that occurs in the unknowing is a knowing. So it doesn't make sense whatsoever. You feel a presence of being when you are in the now. You experience yourself, which is far from an unknowing. Unknowing doesn't sound logical or helpful in spiritual growth. There is nothing mysterious about the silence essence of being. Unknowing makes no sense based on my experience of being only. Another may disagree.

[Xan]

You're welcome, blackraven.

I also ran across "Dark Night of the Soul" when I was in the middle of one... a time of spiritual confusion and frustration. The understanding it gave me was quite a comfort.

Nowadays the open space of unknowing is more like Bright Days of the Heart. :wink:


Xan

[moke64916]

Xan could you please give me some clarity on the context of the word unknowing? Because I am lost with this word and would like to be a part of this diaiogue. If you can share your experience with such, then I would gain an understanding? You don't have to explain if you don't want to, but I'm curious.

[Xan]

What I mean by unknowing is, aware in the silent unboundaried space of pure being, not only within but all around.

It is actually known in the sense of 'conscious of'... intimately and experientially
but beyond the mind's way of knowing what it has learned -
information, skills, ideas, beliefs, values and the conditioned self-identity.
That may be useful in the world but not what we really are in essence.

Unknowing is the vast thought-free zone... empty of mind stuff and full of pure presence.


I like truth teacher Gangaji's way of bringing awareness to this at a certain point in listening to someone telling their story.

She asks, "Is there open space here."


Xan

[moke64916]

Peaceful with the silence essence of being. For me, being comes with few to no thoughts of past and future, yet I still think in terms of understanding and knowing. When I am present, I am not absent of thought entirely. Past and future yes entirely, but intelligence, and the opportunities of a thought which leads to my next action as of what I do in the now guides me. I feel joyful, but I don't like staying completely absent of all thought of all sorts entirely. We got to keep energy flowing. I've experienced ansence of all thoughts, everything. Yes I was extremely aware and feeling love, but if I watched TV I would not think to understand what they are talking about on TV. All what there is is silence. I like to do something, keep moving that way I am energized and joyful. Maybe your experience of this is different than mine. Maybe I did not experience what you are talking of. I just know I feel great with what I am doing right now, and I'm growing. That's all that matters to me right now. As long as I'm happy, then I'm satisfied and grateful. I do say when you have the wisdom to know the difference of what you are doing at all times, then there is clarity and peace. As far as absent of all thoughts is impossible to stay in. Plus we live in a world where you gotta 'do' to survive. I personally don't like ansence of all thoughts, even if I feel absolute love. I like to know what's going on, and not be enebriated on love without thought. You cannot function in the world like that, unless you can. I love feeling absolute love mixed with wisdom, but not absent of all thoughts.

[Thinker108]

Unknowing is not a state, path, way, word or solution. These all concepts are created by our mind only.

[Xan]

moke... In silent awareness we still have useful thoughts... just not the run-on noisy thinking we have become so accustomed to.

As for me I completely love the silence.


Xan

[Xan]

Unknowing is not a state, path, way, word or solution. These all concepts are created by our mind only.

Yep. We use concepts to communicate with... to point toward what is entirely non-conceptual.


Xan

[Thinker108]

Is it possible to decide it? Kabeer says, “Drop is in the sea, it is not possible to find it”.

[Xan]

Is it possible to choose it? By diving your attention into the sea.


Xan

[Thinker108]

A child is playing outside of his house and forgets the way to his house.
When he can find the way? When he desire, and he must recognize his house. It is not the question of path. We were in the sea, we are in the sea and we will go to the sea. It is possible to choose it, you say it attention and I say acceptance.

[moke64916]

Well then I guess I am always in the silence. But I have had expediences where I was not thinking at all in the silence. Now that you've explained it, I am in it most of all the time.

[BlueSky]

Originally Posted by Xan
Yes... at some points it is terrifying to be nothing nowhere... until you notice how delicious it is.

Indeed, the process after realization is surrender... allowing each bit of the clinging, identifying mind to merge into pure beingness... to dissolve into love itself.


Xan


Hi Xan,
I just want to thank you again for this as it seems that it has come at the perfect time. I knew somthing was coming...lol
James

[moke64916]

Mist simplistic truth. Resist: feel pain and conditional thought and ego. 2) accept: experience yourself that of pure love and much much more without suffering.

[Xan]

Thinker: A child is playing outside of his house and forgets the way to his house.
When he can find the way? When he desire, and he must recognize his house.

Yes... but in truth the child only got distracted in his play and Thinks he's outside his house.

Actually he never left and only needs to notice.


Xan

[moke64916]

Amen again Xan.

[seeker2011]

To the original post: nice poem, indeed.
To me it talks about the first time the consciousness was aware without the mind there to quantify things.
That wonderful first experience of being awake nonphysically.

[Xan]

Yes... original awareness is pure and without thought.

Discovering it is wonderful.


Xan

[moke64916]

But even with awareness thoughts do not stop entirely. We still have thoughts, just not conditional thoughts. Thoughts that occur with grace. Thoughts that boosts your energy. Keep energy flowing. It is impossible not to think at all. We wouldn't be able to function in the world without thought. We have a mind for a reason. It's about balance. Too much ansence of thought is not healthy and too much thought is not healthy. And awareness itself is not a feeling. Your just highly alert and you get a boost in energy. In that awareness do the feelings follow. But awareness itself feels like a neutral feeling to me.

[Mr Interesting]

What is knowing and unknowing?

Give a dog a bone... all this bloody dancing around the mulberry bush...:icon_eek:

What if one lives life and makes it up as they go along.

I have no idea what I'm doing but I'll find the courage in myself to attempt things I've never done before and hope that I find some reservoir of understanding within myself that'll help get me through. I don't mind if people think I'm stupid, or will discover I do mind when they call me stupid and deal with it when it happens, and I know I'll get frustrated but that's just another wall to climb that'll make me stronger.

Sometimes this incessant muscle flexing of spiritual pedant's just drives me nuts.

For a bunch of people who don't think spiritual growth can be measured you sure as hell all spend alot of time showin' people who long yours is...

There's possibly a bunch of people who come to these forums and browse because they're just starting to find the courage to believe in themselves and look into their natural talents... and what do they see?

Oh 5hit, it's not about fun and play but about a whole bunch of anal pedagogues with big obscure book fetishes and a pi55ing contest about saying the same damned thing over and over again, in a slightly different way, hoping each time than the ring of confidence around their own heads gets a little brighter.

If you think this applies to you... it's humility at work and be assured it's all good.

But if you think it doesn't apply to you... think again 'cause that knowing needs unknowing... possibly!

[seeker2011]

"Thoughts do not stop entirely."
You are close to what I've been approaching lately. "Mind" is not the bad boy betenoir a lot of spiritual teachers like to say it is. You see, there are two of each:: mind, body, emotion. One of each is physical, one of each is spiritual.
My current pursuit is trying to learn how to use the spiritual mind while awake,,,,not easy. And, by the way, seems to require an immense amount of time, that undefinable energy that can only be experienced in 3 dimensions, time...........

[Xan]

What is knowing and unknowing?

Mr. Interesting... Knowing is what the mind does, unknowing is experiencing beyond the mind.

People sometimes think talking about these things is a kind of bragging. For me, it's about letting people know of hidden possibilities.

I do it just in case they might glimpse this 'beyond mind' zone, and so may pay attention rather than ignoring it... which I think probably happens quite often.

Why? Because it feels amazingly wide open and free.


Xan

[Xan]

My current pursuit is trying to learn how to use the spiritual mind while awake,,,,not easy. And, by the way, seems to require an immense amount of time.........

seeker... Rather than learning to use the spiritual mind I've learned to let go and let it use me and my ordinary mind.

After all, it's the one with all the wisdom, power and love, eh?


Xan

[hybrid]

unknowing = being

all knowledge ends in awareness, so what's aware cannot be known.

[Mr Interesting]

Xan... Cool.

I just wanted a wee rave time and the chance to remind us people are watching.

Sometimes, for me, it just gets to much like staffroom politics.

[moke64916]

[QUOTE=Xan]What is knowing and unknowing?

Mr. Interesting... Knowing is what the mind does, unknowing is experiencing beyond the mind.

People sometimes think talking about these things is a kind of bragging. For me, it's about letting people know of hidden possibilities.

I do it just in case they might glimpse this 'beyond mind' zone, and so may pay attention rather than ignoring it... which I think probably happens quite often.

Why? Because it feels amazingly wide open and free.

[COLOR="Green"]Just because we are sbsent of though does not mean we are out of mind. It means there is a mind body connection working as one. Too much attention in body will take you out of the present moment, as well as mind. It's balance. One cannot say for a fact that they are out of mind. Being in the timeless does not mean your out of mind. It's illogical to jump to that conclusion. And it sounds ceazy, and if is scientifically impossible. So that has to be incorrect. I know it is. Logic, science, and spirituality mixed together helps one gain a better understanding. I wouldn'r say I was out of my mind because I could be delusional. That's just for me and my truth on the subject.

[moke64916]

unknowing = being

all knowledge ends in awareness, so what's aware cannot be known.
That is an inaccurate statement that knowledge leads to awareness. It never has for me. Knowledge is an understanding of something that is already true yet not experienced. And awareness leads to feelings and knowings. Peace.

[seeker2011]

Unknowing, experiencing beyond the mind.

And could it be that the 'mind' we're talking about is where consciousness is focusable or if that's not a word, could it be that the unknowing is a frequency of consciousness where we haven't learned to 'think', yet.

I quite firmly experience two kinds of mind. One is in the unknowing zone, I am aware of it but dont have full use of it yet. This one communicates with concepts, not language of words, uses imagery and the un'defined' kind of thought.
The other is finely focused in language and is what I'm used to using for interacting with the world.

I wonder if merging the two is the goal?

[KoKo]

Wow.. Those are great works. I especially like the second oen. =)

[Mr Interesting]

There's this thing that tends to come up in most of the "arts" but more so in Music whereby you learn everything you can then do your utmost to forget that and go from there.

On one hand it's about becoming almost automatic and not thinking through and preparing but about being spontaneous but it's also about unlearning the constructs and rebuilding without the rules being a constant.

I got right into experimental music a few years ago and spent my time building weird and wonderful instruments I'd make up as I went along and then rush to have them finished each Monday night so I could perform with them at the forum we had which was a little bohemian club in town where the owner also had a penchant for the absurd and so would give us free rein in the place to magic things up!

I really loved it because 1. I'd have an instrument before me that I didn't know and had to discover under a little pressure - audience watching. 2. Performers would be arbitrarily picked in groups of three and without any preliminaries - Go and keep going 20 - 30 minutes. 3. The interaction between performers was very dependant on listening and intuitively knowing how you could fit in and make gestalt.

It was all a very heady mix of knowing and unknowing to get the unknown known.

This is one of the reasons many artists often create pressure when making art, as in not making artworks until 2 weeks before a show, to get into that realm where you have no time for forethought but have to go with your gut and your heart and just have faith that good stuff will emerge. It's a very potent mix and using it as a drug is not without it's side effects...
I think it's another reason that soldiers like war and even all people seeking to get better at something get caught up in adrenalin rushes where decisions have to be instant.

But we're here in a spiritual forum and this then is the place where we've, hopefully experienced this special form of interaction with life, but have the common sense to realise the implications of using it as a drug and spend a little time thinking about how to re-invent the wheel not as a flight or fight mechanism but dig it out and make it a tool for daily living that has less drawbacks and greater overall enhancements to life.

But I ain't here seeking Enlightenment... though I do have a sneaking suspicion it might be seeking me.

[Silver]

Aww, one of your best posts yet, Mr. I. I really like that.

Long Live Improv!

[Humm]

Music is my drug of choice! :wink:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Music is my drug of choice! :wink:
Hi Humm: I favor music much, but.. my "drug of choice", is 'choice'..

Be well..

[Humm]

Greetings..


Hi Humm: I favor music much, but.. my "drug of choice", is 'choice'..

Be well..
Umm.... not following this... :confused:

[Xan]

seeker: Unknowing, experiencing beyond the mind.

And could it be that the 'mind' we're talking about is where consciousness is focusable or if that's not a word, could it be that the unknowing is a frequency of consciousness where we haven't learned to 'think', yet.

Unknowing consciousness is where we don't need to think.

Mental processes are useful but highly overrated and overused in our world, in my view of things.


I quite firmly experience two kinds of mind. One is in the unknowing zone, I am aware of it but dont have full use of it yet. This one communicates with concepts, not language of words, uses imagery and the un'defined' kind of thought.
The other is finely focused in language and is what I'm used to using for interacting with the world.

I wonder if merging the two is the goal?

seeker... I prefer to explore the free, no-concept zone experientially, without trying to define, figure it out or use it.

In fact, the further I go the more I realize It is actually using me - the human body-mind, and I surrender into It.

Our minds, as intricate and clever as they are, at some point may be recognized to be very small indeed in comparison.

In letting go of my mind's identity and habits there is gradual merging.


Xan

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Umm.... not following this... :confused:
It is intended to convey my understandings of the euphoria induced by 'drugs'.. as a 'Child of the '60s', i am 'familiar with the euphoria induced by ummmm.. inspired medicinal research of naturally occurring psychoactive plants and herbs, yeaaahhh, that's a good description.. and, by comparison, the freedom to choose who and what you are, is a brilliantly superior 'euphoria', it inspires a profound awe and wonder for the experience of physical existence.. it rocks!!

Be well..

[Humm]

Greetings..


It is intended to convey my understandings of the euphoria induced by 'drugs'.. as a 'Child of the '60s', i am 'familiar with the euphoria induced by ummmm.. inspired medicinal research of naturally occurring psychoactive plants and herbs, yeaaahhh, that's a good description.. and, by comparison, the freedom to choose who and what you are, is a brilliantly superior 'euphoria', it inspires a profound awe and wonder for the experience of physical existence.. it rocks!!

Be well..

Ah yes. Makes perfect sense to me.

I was just making a joke Tzu. :smile: That's what the wink was supposed to convey. Sorry if it was just confusing.

[seeker2011]

seeker: Unknowing, experiencing beyond the mind.

And could it be that the 'mind' we're talking about is where consciousness is focusable or if that's not a word, could it be that the unknowing is a frequency of consciousness where we haven't learned to 'think', yet.

Unknowing consciousness is where we don't need to think.

Mental processes are useful but highly overrated and overused in our world, in my view of things.


I quite firmly experience two kinds of mind. One is in the unknowing zone, I am aware of it but dont have full use of it yet. This one communicates with concepts, not language of words, uses imagery and the un'defined' kind of thought.
The other is finely focused in language and is what I'm used to using for interacting with the world.

I wonder if merging the two is the goal?

seeker... I prefer to explore the free, no-concept zone experientially, without trying to define, figure it out or use it.

In fact, the further I go the more I realize It is actually using me - the human body-mind, and I surrender into It.

Our minds, as intricate and clever as they are, at some point may be recognized to be very small indeed in comparison.

In letting go of my mind's identity and habits there is gradual merging.


Xan

"seeker... I prefer to explore the free, no-concept zone experientially, without trying to define, figure it out or use it.

In fact, the further I go the more I realize It is actually using me - the human body-mind, and I surrender into It.

Our minds, as intricate and clever as they are, at some point may be recognized to be very small indeed in comparison.

In letting go of my mind's identity and habits there is gradual merging."

Xan,
Are we getting close to an understanding here?
Yes the body's mind is quite small, as small as a shadow is compared to it's object. A slim, less dimensional, reflection cast onto a media of physical matter?
But aren't we first confused and believe we are our body/mind,emotion construct and someday wake up to the fact that they are ours, not us? And dont we then find out they are far more useful than we thought? ANd then dont we discover the higher worlds that exist as more energy than matter? And dont we then discover we have the same kinds of tools available, and isn't one of those tools consciousness----? Why wouldn't there be a higher version of 'mind' to use when our consciousness is more developed on those higher worlds?

[Xan]

Yes, to most of your questions, seeker.

As I see it, though, consciousness is not a tool of the mind but quite the reverse. For one thing, our thinking/feeling mind is very limited whereas consciousness is not. For example we can be aware of our thinking and also aware in the unboundaried silent space of no thought.

I suspect there are untold dimensions of consciousness we have yet to discover... another facet of the 'unknown'.


And... through quantum physics and through our own explorations in consciousness, we are discovering that even this world of apparently solid matter is actually energy... atoms, electrons, photons, and so on.


Why wouldn't there be a higher version of 'mind' to use when our consciousness is more developed on those higher worlds?

This depends on what you mean by 'mind'. If it's the conceptual, language and image-based function useful for interaction in this world, why would we need a similar form of it in higher worlds? As I see it, that would like riding a tricycle when we're whizzing into warp drive.

We can't really imagine from 'here' what it's like 'there'. We can only open to experiencing it directly.


And yes... I think we're on the same track.


Xan

[seeker2011]

Yes, I agree. The mind as we know it is a tool. A tool for learning how to focus consciousness. Of course we have to learn how to use the "lower" mind first, otherwise we would not know consciousness if it walked up and kicked us in the ego.
I'm talking about the evolution of the essence of our being. First to be a physical being, then to progress eventually into an energy being. All the "lessons" of the earth life in between.
But we use mind to know consciousness, dont we? At some point we flip from "more mind/less consciousness" to a position of "more consciousness/less mind" at which point I believe the mind will have evolved into something vastly greater than it is now. No longer will it be the imposter who decieves us into thinking we are it. We will use mind as we need to, but will think (not even remotely similar to thinking in the body) with consciousness.
Side bar: There have been occasions when I 'felt' thinking as a very tangible experience, with substance of an extra ordinary nature.

[Xan]

But we use mind to know consciousness, dont we?

We can only use the mind to know 'about' consciousness. But we may become aware that we are conscious, without defining or thinking of it.

It takes a slight shift in awareness to recognize "I am aware" and further "I am awareness", but without the words.


At some point we flip from "more mind/less consciousness" to a position of "more consciousness/less mind" at which point I believe the mind will have evolved into something vastly greater than it is now. No longer will it be the imposter who decieves us into thinking we are it. We will use mind as we need to, but will think (not even remotely similar to thinking in the body) with consciousness.

Yes, no doubt we are evolving into something we can't now imagine, even in this world.


Side bar: There have been occasions when I 'felt' thinking as a very tangible experience, with substance of an extra ordinary nature.

Yes, I also sometimes feel thought activity as its own kind of energy, or energies.


Xan

[Xan]

If you want to understand it
you cannot understand it.
When you give up trying to understand it
true understanding is always there.


~ Shunryu Suzuki

[seeker2011]

One way of saying that desire belongs to the ego (earth personality), who can not under any circumstances understand anything about what isn't 3 dimensional, in my opinion that is.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Too much thinking.. what does a soft breeze 'feel' like, don't answer.. walk outside, 'feel'..

Be well..

[Mr Interesting]

Yup, too much knowing...

I've said it in other ways in other places but basically, for me, knowing and unknowing are just mirrors looking at each other. One ain't by itself, though it is,because it is only by it's reflection in the other.

One slips through the other to become and again slips through the other to become again... and again... and again.

We have a right leg and a left leg but by cutting one off we then have no "legs".

[myBuddha]

it is like knowing everything at once and not paying attention to it...
you feel it instead

[7luminaries]

And this....


Do you really want to hear
More words about…
More descriptions of…

Or is it enough to sit in this Radiance
And Breathe Bliss.

Knowing nothing,
I have nothing to say.
I can only Share this Mystery
This Great Unknowing
This Unbearable Beauty.

At the risk of knowing just one thing
I will say this much…
This Ecstasy…
It's…
You.

What you are,
Before the world arises, and after
Before “you” arise, and after
Your Nature
Bliss.

How uncomfortable
To speak even that.
As if I know anything
About anything
Whatsoever.

Maybe, if I whisper…
Without speaking….

It's…
You.



- Chuck Hillig, from http://stillnessspeaks.com (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fsti llnessspeaks.com)

`

Beautiful :hug3:

[7luminaries]

Greetings..


Hi Humm: I favor music much, but.. my "drug of choice", is 'choice'..

Be well..

Yes...the unexamined life, truly, not worth living :smile:

With of course the understanding that conscious awareness and intellectual knowledge are not one and the same...

[7luminaries]

If you want to understand it
you cannot understand it.
When you give up trying to understand it
true understanding is always there.


~ Shunryu Suzuki


:thumbsup:

[mbk89]

Some people just naturally are always there. So talking about it is foreign. It's about living it. As soon as it's talked about and with repetetion, it becomes engrained in your thought process, so when the experience arrives the words spoken on this forum hit you, then you experience not. Just a thought.

[Xan]

Over-involvement with the intellect about what is entirely non-intellectual is a hindrance, for sure.

Yet, we seem to have a need to understand and to communicate about It... which can, when not overused, support and integrate our deepening awareness.


Xan

[Silver]

Some people just naturally are always there. So talking about it is foreign. It's about living it. As soon as it's talked about and with repetetion, it becomes engrained in your thought process, so when the experience arrives the words spoken on this forum hit you, then you experience not. Just a thought.

Yeah, let others come to that state if they are going to...otherwise, what skin is it off your umm __________~*

[Silver]

What is knowing and unknowing?

Give a dog a bone... all this bloody dancing around the mulberry bush...:icon_eek:

What if one lives life and makes it up as they go along.

I have no idea what I'm doing but I'll find the courage in myself to attempt things I've never done before and hope that I find some reservoir of understanding within myself that'll help get me through. I don't mind if people think I'm stupid, or will discover I do mind when they call me stupid and deal with it when it happens, and I know I'll get frustrated but that's just another wall to climb that'll make me stronger.

Sometimes this incessant muscle flexing of spiritual pedant's just drives me nuts.

For a bunch of people who don't think spiritual growth can be measured you sure as hell all spend alot of time showin' people who long yours is...

There's possibly a bunch of people who come to these forums and browse because they're just starting to find the courage to believe in themselves and look into their natural talents... and what do they see?

Oh 5hit, it's not about fun and play but about a whole bunch of anal pedagogues with big obscure book fetishes and a pi55ing contest about saying the same damned thing over and over again, in a slightly different way, hoping each time than the ring of confidence around their own heads gets a little brighter.

If you think this applies to you... it's humility at work and be assured it's all good.

But if you think it doesn't apply to you... think again 'cause that knowing needs unknowing... possibly!

Pretty much mostly my sentiments, Mr. I well put ~~~ Itsa thumbs up for me.

[BlueSky]

Ironically, it's not a state or an attitude or something to grasp.

Just saying............

[Silver]

Ironically, it's not a state or an attitude or something to grasp.

Just saying............

And the talk here is as if it is. Just sayin...:wink: :hug:

[BlueSky]

And the talk here is as if it is. Just sayin...:wink: :hug:

Good point........:wink:

[Xan]

Ironically, it's not a state or an attitude or something to grasp.

And the talk here is as if it is. Just sayin...


It could be heard that way.

But then love isn't a state or an attitude or a something either, but we do talk about it. :wink:


Xan

[BlueSky]

Ironically, it's not a state or an attitude or something to grasp.

And the talk here is as if it is. Just sayin...


It could be heard that way.

But then love isn't a state or an attitude or a something either, but we do talk about it. :wink:


Xan

Good point.........:smile:

[Jyotir]

Hi Xan,

Over-involvement with the intellect about what is entirely non-intellectual is a hindrance, for sure.

Yet, we seem to have a need to understand and to communicate about It... which can, when not overused, support and integrate our deepening awareness.
I fully agree with this, and 'support' is a good word. Like skeletal frameworks, new ideas may assist in greater 'fleshing out' of awareness, expanding possibilities for future growth.


Some spiritual teachers speak of a state of 'unknowing', in which our old ways of knowing this and that are left behind, which may not sound so appealing to our ordinary mind. But in this we become aware in a new expansive way.


It seems that so much about 'knowing' is an (unconscious) attachment to expectation. Even careful self-examination after-the-fact of some less than satisfying experience often reveals that expectation is the origin.

A simple approach, which moves 'unknowing' from the vague and tenuous philosophical and theoretical sphere into the practical - an effective way to cultivate 'unknowing' in action - is to not have, or to release any expectations.


~ J

[Jyotir]

What is knowing and unknowing?

Give a dog a bone... all this bloody dancing around the mulberry bush...

What if one lives life and makes it up as they go along.

I have no idea what I'm doing but I'll find the courage in myself to attempt things I've never done before and hope that I find some reservoir of understanding within myself that'll help get me through. I don't mind if people think I'm stupid, or will discover I do mind when they call me stupid and deal with it when it happens, and I know I'll get frustrated but that's just another wall to climb that'll make me stronger.

Sometimes this incessant muscle flexing of spiritual pedant's just drives me nuts.

For a bunch of people who don't think spiritual growth can be measured you sure as hell all spend alot of time showin' people who long yours is...

There's possibly a bunch of people who come to these forums and browse because they're just starting to find the courage to believe in themselves and look into their natural talents... and what do they see?

Oh 5hit, it's not about fun and play but about a whole bunch of anal pedagogues with big obscure book fetishes and a pi55ing contest about saying the same damned thing over and over again, in a slightly different way, hoping each time than the ring of confidence around their own heads gets a little brighter.

If you think this applies to you... it's humility at work and be assured it's all good.

But if you think it doesn't apply to you... think again 'cause that knowing needs unknowing... possibly!


Hi Mr. Interesting,
What is knowing and unknowing? I know that rants like the above are often fueled in some measure by an intolerant pride that has little to do with fun, creativity, courage or hope.

Give a dog a bone... all this bloody dancing around the mulberry bush...
Ok, I'll throw one out there...a dance of righteous bloody indignation is not in any way superior to circumnavigating a bush.

What if one lives life and makes it up as they go along.
There is no reason why spontaneity is exclusive of the thread's premise. If anything, it (spontaneity) may be somewhat dependent on it (unknowing).

I have no idea what I'm doing but I'll find the courage in myself to attempt things I've never done before and hope that I find some reservoir of understanding within myself that'll help get me through.
Good for you, and for staying on topic. Courage and hope applied to any positive aspiration are also not inconsistent with the premise of the thread, because those qualities may facilitate the process of 'unknowing' in the quest for newness, spontaneity and self-discovery. So why the evident condescension, since we are all searching for the same thing?

I don't mind if people think I'm stupid, or will discover I do mind when they call me stupid and deal with it when it happens, and I know I'll get frustrated but that's just another wall to climb that'll make me stronger. Even if I do not think you are stupid, I still might find your rant informed by arrogance, in part unnecessary, and reliably predictable as a facile response within many spiritual discussions. Likewise, the self-styled 'jester' routine could similarly be seen as just as tedious and pretentious as any conceit you may believe you have identified in others here or elsewhere.

Since when is frustration a requisite of growth? And why do you think "people think" you are stupid? I call that 'bad faith' - or, it represents the need to unlearn/un-know the past conditioning of having experienced that unfortunate response from others - again, related to the theme of the thread.

It is that kind of 'knowing' (not as in true Gnosis), which causes that frustration, because it involves a reasoned acceptance of untruth, appearance, or some expectation which must be unlearned. There is a very productive poise which does not depend on superficial 'knowing' or expecting along with its subsequent frustration. That which is dynamic, spontaneous, enthusiastic and accepting - that is what 'unknowing' is about. (oops! a pedagogical proposition). The OP is presenting just another angle, another handle, another approach to an aspect of seeking someone may be inclined towards exploring at the moment.

Sometimes this incessant muscle flexing of spiritual pedant's just drives me nuts. For sure, and why I was wondering about your squirrelly penchant for incessantly pumping up a mannered and contrived cleverness.

For a bunch of people who don't think spiritual growth can be measured you sure as hell all spend alot of time showin' people who long yours is... If the shoe fits...it means one has already tried it on.

There's possibly a bunch of people who come to these forums and browse because they're just starting to find the courage to believe in themselves and look into their natural talents... and what do they see?I think what they may see is that everyone contributes in their own way at their own discretion - and it is "all good", with the possible exception of haughty sweeping insults which might not have much utility for people "believing in themselves...their natural talents". People likely need more encouragement at the beginning of a journey and less insults - otherwise they may have a tendency to lurk, hesitate and recede vs actively participating and contributing for concern of being publicly shamed as an 'anal pedagogue', for instance, by a well meaning fellow seeker. (yes, talk about inhibiting growth).

Oh 5hit, it's not about fun and play but about a whole bunch of anal pedagogues with big obscure book fetishes and a pi55ing contest about saying the same damned thing over and over again, in a slightly different way, hoping each time than the ring of confidence around their own heads gets a little brighter. If you are concerned about the spiritual welfare of novices, then be assured that reiteration is a significant way many if not most people learn something that is new and unfamiliar - regardless of the subject, or how advanced any 'novice' might be according to context and personal standard. People also learn in different ways and are receptive to different issues at different times. You may be a stunningly brilliant and confident exception, no doubt - yet perhaps with your own fetish for bodily excretion5 vs. books.

Another way to creatively look at the same phenomena you described so disparagingly, is that there is much patience and self-giving here (regardless of 'style') that supports the intention to share - after considerable work, experience, and sacrifice - what has been meaningful to some, as an offering to others.

Yet another way to look at it (I know, more unpleasantries), is that: IT IS nothing but fun and play. Only it may not be your very own, very special and very specific kind of fun-play, and therefore you may not be able recognize it as such - but then, who's deficiency, who's loss would that be if your own insistent expectation is blinding and frustrating you? (remember, it's "just another wall to climb" that'll make you stronger)

If you think this applies to you... it's humility at work and be assured it's all good. But if you think it doesn't apply to you... think again 'cause that knowing needs unknowing... possibly!
Of course your scathing critique would...possibly!... apply equally to yourself as well - if real humility is at work, that is.
And if it isn't, then whether humility is from knowing or unknowing could be explored further, unless that is overly taxing to your humility.

~ J

[Xan]

It seems so much of knowing is moving from expectation...

A simple approach, which moves 'unknowing' from the vague and tenuous philosophical and theoretical sphere into the practical - an effective way to cultivate 'unknowing' in action - is to not have, or to release any expectations.

~ J

Yes.... living in daily life from the open space of 'unknowing' yields quite a different quality to our existence.


Xan

[Xan]

I assume there is sincerity in this meeting, the sincerity to really look and to discover what life is. The fact that you are sincere means that you have already searched in many directions. The longing to search for life in many directions, to discover your true being, comes from an inner urge to find the truth, the inner urge to discover yourself.

If you really seriously search in all directions you become exhausted and, speaking psychologically, bankrupt. You feel completely helpless: you are in despair; you no longer know where to turn; all streets are dead ends; your thinking can no longer help.

This crisis is the most important moment in your life. You come into a state of complete not-knowing. You have no hope or expectations anymore. It is a rare occasion in which the thinking is confronted with its limitations, and because it is useless as such the thinking gives up, then you are open, open for nothing, only open for openness.

This openness is the threshold of your true nature. Remain there in not knowing and you will see what happens.


~ Jean Klein

[BlueSky]

I assume there is sincerity in this meeting, the sincerity to really look and to discover what life is. The fact that you are sincere means that you have already searched in many directions. The longing to search for life in many directions, to discover your true being, comes from an inner urge to find the truth, the inner urge to discover yourself.

If you really seriously search in all directions you become exhausted and, speaking psychologically, bankrupt. You feel completely helpless: you are in despair; you no longer know where to turn; all streets are dead ends; your thinking can no longer help.

This crisis is the most important moment in your life. You come into a state of complete not-knowing. You have no hope or expectations anymore. It is a rare occasion in which the thinking is confronted with its limitations, and because it is useless as such, the thinking gives up, then you are open, open for nothing, only open for openness.

This openness is the threshold of your true nature. Remain there in not knowing and you will see what happens.


~ Jean Klein

Very nice advice at the end and an exact detailed description of the path my life took.......lol

[Miss Hepburn]

So let us understand that reality transcends all of our notions about reality. Reality is neither Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Advaita Vedanta, nor Buddhist.
It is neither dualistic nor nondualistic, neither spiritual nor nonspiritual.
We should come to know that there is more reality and sacredness in a blade of grass than in all of our thoughts and ideas about reality.
When we perceive from an undivided consciousness, we will find the sacred in every expression of life.
We will find it in our teacup, in the fall breeze, in the brushing of our teeth, in each and every moment of living and dying.
Therefore we must leave the entire collection of conditioned thought behind and let ourselves be led by the inner thread of silence into the unknown, beyond where all paths end, to that place where we go innocently or not at all—not once but continually.

One must be willing to stand alone—in the unknown, with no reference to the known or the past or any of one’s conditioning.
One must stand where no one has stood before in complete nakedness, innocence, and humility.
One must stand in that dark light, in that groundless embrace, unwavering and true to the reality beyond all self—not just for a moment, but forever without end. For then that which is sacred, undivided, and whole is born within consciousness and begins to express itself.

© Adyashanti 2008


http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=writings_inner&writingid (http://www.adyashanti.org/index.php?file=writings_inner&writingid)

:smile:

[Xan]

You come into a state of complete not-knowing. You have no hope or expectations anymore. It is a rare occasion in which the thinking is confronted with its limitations, and because it is useless as such the thinking gives up, then you are open, open for nothing, only open for openness. - Jean Klein

One must be willing to stand alone—in the unknown, with no reference to the known or the past or any of one’s conditioning.... in complete nakedness, innocence, and humility.... —not just for a moment, but forever without end. - Adyashanti


It takes courage.


Xan

[Miss Hepburn]

Such an inspiring thread filled with quotes and inspiration.
:smile:

We should still the thinking mind so far as possible and adopt a
listening attitude...when we have an important question.
~Joel S. Goldsmith.

[loopylucid]

Random question which probably only serves to show the confusion this thread has bought to my mind (in a good way!) But unknowing feels very similar to being able to view things from as many angles as current perspective allows/dictates, teaches, preaches, presents or attempts to control etc, without attaching to any of them? Because it is hard too un-know! When your unknowing what you once thought you knew in a literal sense, and so if it is a case of oneness, all that you thought you once knew is still a path to what ultimately is, a bit like even tho we un-know, we might do so by perceiving all paths and realising they each reach the same goal, therby not focusing on any result, just our own journey, allowing it to flow unheeded, unrestrained and without need to catergorise, as we realise it wouldn't make any difference anyway?
Just some ramblings, disclaimer to them making any sense tho! hehehe!
Loopy

[billhicks]

I believe there is this "beyond mind" source, and I believe I have experienced it.. but in my mind, I can't help but wonder if my "beyond mind" experiences were actually just a psychotic delusion produced by my mind...



So, While it may be true, that with a certain understanding/acceptance your mind dissolves into "being" and a unconditioned source(call it; awareness, consciousness, god, or whatever...) is found to be behind it.
How does this "beyond mind" refute/replace all the things our mind "knows"?

Does one "un-know" how to walk,talk...?

Or is one transformed from the "un-knowing" state to a mystical state of "all-knowing"?


I think, that mind and source(the relative and the absolute) go hand in hand together. And while I do think we should aim to go beyond the mind, at the same time, the mind is a powerful tool which we should also exercise and develop.