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mattie
16-10-2011, 02:02 PM
NASA continues to try to get a handle on dark matter.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/hubble/science/dark-matter-survey.html

babycakes
15-11-2011, 06:38 AM
isnt science always lightyears behind?

Greybeard
16-11-2011, 10:38 PM
It is a difficult task to shed light on dark matter.

Greybeard
16-11-2011, 10:40 PM
It is now theorized that dark matter is far and away the largest component of the mass of the universe. The theory is based primarily on observations of gravitational effects that can't be explained by the presence of normal matter.

mattie
09-12-2011, 10:02 PM
In the case of dark matter it shouldn't be viewed as negative or any connotation that is associated w/ evil.

Sapphirez
03-02-2012, 08:57 AM
good to know mattie, do you have your own interpretation as to why you don't view it as negative?

hse1pbe
20-03-2012, 09:23 PM
isnt science always lightyears behind?
What do you mean by this? Behind what? Has something "else" figured out dark matter?

Also, lightyear is a unit of distance, not time.

good to know mattie, do you have your own interpretation as to why you don't view it as negative?
It's called "dark" matter simply because you can't image it directly (like, with an optical telescope). Its effects are seen primarily through its gravitational interaction with other matter. So, the adjective "dark" is being used in the optical sense, not the "evil" or "negative" sense.

Idhrenniel
14-06-2012, 05:09 AM
Yeah there isn't any negative OR positive connotation to Dark matter, because it simply is. Just like any other worldly force. I think it is quite a mystery, however, and it is exciting to imagine what we could eventually do with it.

Greybeard
14-06-2012, 03:53 PM
Normal matter is the stuff you and I get all over our face when someone throws a coconut cream pie at us. We can taste it, see it, feel it, weigh it, throw it around. Normal matter has substance; it occupies space. It matters because it gets in our way. Scientists are divided into two schools of thought about normal matter. The first group follows in the footsteps of Issac Newton and considers matter to be a serious matter. The other school follows Groucho Marx (not to be confused with the prophet of historical determinism, his cousin Karl) who maintain that matter is a laughing matter. The disciples of Sigmund Freud are mostly concerned with gray matter. My uncle Josh belonged to the Apathetic School, and claimed it doesn't matter.

Black holes are both the generators and repositories of dark matter. That is why when you pour a bucketful of light into a black hole you can't ever get it out again. The light becomes dark matter, and everyone knows that light and dark are antipathetic. Like the proverbial cake, you can't have your dark and have light too.

The scientific truth of the matter is that energy and matter are just two forms of one and the same thing. The thing that determines which form dominates is the speed of light. When energy comes to a school zone and has to slow down it turns into matter. If the crossing guard steps into the street holding her stop-sign on high, the normal matter that we all know and love becomes dark matter. Lord Kelvin knew this when he invented the thermometer. Dark matter is energy overcome by entropy.

Scientists make up exotic terms so they can keep their jobs. No one ever heard of gravity until Newton came along and wanted a chair at Oxford. Everyone knew that when an apple falls out of a tree it falls down; who ever saw an apple fall up. So Newton said that apples are ruled by gravity, and because no one understood what gravity was (and still don't) they thought he was brilliant and gave him the chair so he could train unemployed Cockneys to get a good job talking about gravity. Then along came Einstein who said that gravity wasn't a force, but was really sort of a dimple in space. No one understood what he was talking about so they thought he was brilliant and gave him a chair too, but not at Oxford. All the chairs at Oxford were full of fat behinds, so they gave him a chair at Princeton.

Now the scientists come along and invent dark matter so they can get funding for a research project. No one has ever seen it. No one has ever poured it out of a bottle and into a glass. And the whole idea of dark matter rests on gravity. Apples were simple; they fell down. If dark matter really exists, then the answer is simple. The whole universe is falling down. We are doomed. Besides, who needs gravity when we have apples? You can eat apples; I never heard of anyone baking a gravity pie.

I hope this throws some light on the matter of dark matter.

When you become an old man with nothing important to do of a Thursday morning, this is what happens to you.

Kepler
25-06-2012, 03:42 PM
Scientists make up exotic terms so they can keep their jobs.

Scientists make up exotic terms because nature is full of exotic phenomena.



No one ever heard of gravity until Newton came along and wanted a chair at Oxford. Everyone knew that when an apple falls out of a tree it falls down; who ever saw an apple fall up. So Newton said that apples are ruled by gravity, and because no one understood what gravity was (and still don't) they thought he was brilliant and gave him the chair so he could train unemployed Cockneys to get a good job talking about gravity.

They gave him the chair because he developed a mathematical framework (he basically invented calculus!) with which to describe natural phenomena. This is, of course, of great use to society, as Newton's laws (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton%27s_laws_of_motion) (among his other contributions) have been regularly exploited. Everyone knew that apples fall down, but they didn't know how to generalize this idea such that they can build airplanes and space shuttles.



Then along came Einstein who said that gravity wasn't a force, but was really sort of a dimple in space. No one understood what he was talking about so they thought he was brilliant and gave him a chair too, but not at Oxford. All the chairs at Oxford were full of fat behinds, so they gave him a chair at Princeton.

Einstein never said gravity is not a force. The "dimple" in space is what produce the gravitational force, according to general relativity.



Now the scientists come along and invent dark matter so they can get funding for a research project. No one has ever seen it. No one has ever poured it out of a bottle and into a glass. And the whole idea of dark matter rests on gravity.
They invented dark matter in response to anomalous observations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_matter#Observational_evidence).

If you think scientists only make up terms to acquire research funding, you may want to ponder how it is you are communicating to others via radio waves, optical fibers, transistors and magnets, among other things.

Silver
25-06-2012, 04:26 PM
Normal matter is the stuff you and I get all over our face when someone throws a coconut cream pie at us. We can taste it, see it, feel it, weigh it, throw it around. Normal matter has substance; it occupies space. It matters because it gets in our way. Scientists are divided into two schools of thought about normal matter. The first group follows in the footsteps of Issac Newton and considers matter to be a serious matter. The other school follows Groucho Marx (not to be confused with the prophet of historical determinism, his cousin Karl) who maintain that matter is a laughing matter. The disciples of Sigmund Freud are mostly concerned with gray matter. My uncle Josh belonged to the Apathetic School, and claimed it doesn't matter.

Black holes are both the generators and repositories of dark matter. That is why when you pour a bucketful of light into a black hole you can't ever get it out again. The light becomes dark matter, and everyone knows that light and dark are antipathetic. Like the proverbial cake, you can't have your dark and have light too.

The scientific truth of the matter is that energy and matter are just two forms of one and the same thing. The thing that determines which form dominates is the speed of light. When energy comes to a school zone and has to slow down it turns into matter. If the crossing guard steps into the street holding her stop-sign on high, the normal matter that we all know and love becomes dark matter. Lord Kelvin knew this when he invented the thermometer. Dark matter is energy overcome by entropy.

Scientists make up exotic terms so they can keep their jobs. No one ever heard of gravity until Newton came along and wanted a chair at Oxford. Everyone knew that when an apple falls out of a tree it falls down; who ever saw an apple fall up. So Newton said that apples are ruled by gravity, and because no one understood what gravity was (and still don't) they thought he was brilliant and gave him the chair so he could train unemployed Cockneys to get a good job talking about gravity. Then along came Einstein who said that gravity wasn't a force, but was really sort of a dimple in space. No one understood what he was talking about so they thought he was brilliant and gave him a chair too, but not at Oxford. All the chairs at Oxford were full of fat behinds, so they gave him a chair at Princeton.

Now the scientists come along and invent dark matter so they can get funding for a research project. No one has ever seen it. No one has ever poured it out of a bottle and into a glass. And the whole idea of dark matter rests on gravity. Apples were simple; they fell down. If dark matter really exists, then the answer is simple. The whole universe is falling down. We are doomed. Besides, who needs gravity when we have apples? You can eat apples; I never heard of anyone baking a gravity pie.

I hope this throws some light on the matter of dark matter.

When you become an old man with nothing important to do of a Thursday morning, this is what happens to you.

Uh-oh! Gb can be a real hoot ~ and what a way to rev up my morning. ~smile~

I guess this is an old thread/post, but the first I've run across it.:redface: :smile:




Oh, and Kepler > Lighten up.:D :wink:

Greybeard
25-06-2012, 06:05 PM
I am pondering. If you ask Leibniz who invented calculus he won't say Newton.

Kepler not only believed in astrology, he was actually an astrologer. And he had a chair, paid for by the Holy Roman Empire. Can you imagine such an airhead actually doing any real science? He thought that planets followed eliptical orbits. Preposterous.

Kepler
25-06-2012, 06:23 PM
I am pondering. If you ask Leibniz who invented calculus he won't say Newton.

Hence why I said "practically". It's pretty well established that they both contributed much to the field, and there was a lot of overlapping material that they both independently discovered.

iolite
25-06-2012, 07:55 PM
It is a difficult task to shed light on dark matter.

That's profound AND funny!
:D

Greybeard
25-06-2012, 09:00 PM
Now then Mr. Kepler, Jr.....

Here is something to ponder.

I said that Einstein said that gravity was a dimple in space.
You said that gravity was a force caused by the dimple.

As a graphic aid to thought, you might look at this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ee/Lagrange_points2.svg/330px-Lagrange_points2.svg.png. It depicts the inner solar system by using isotropic lines (energy potential combining gravitational and centrifugal forces) and shows the dimples.

So.....
What we are saying here is that gravity is a force caused by space running uphill or downhill (with respect to its local dimple), the dimple being caused by a mass (a planet, for example) being located at some point in it, or by the interaction of several masses combined with their respective motions -- which creates a dynamic gravitational system.....

Which leads us back to the question: "Why does an apple fall down?"

We might recall that Einstein also said that gravity can be caused by motion (acceleration) as well as mass... (His analogy with the effects of an elevator).

I am still pondering, although mowiing the lawn may take precedence.

I might add, just to tease you.... Despite our huge advances in understanding the universe, we do not know the fundamental nature of things. We can describe such things as gravity, mass, energy, motion, spacetime.... but we still do not understand their fundamental nature. Ponder that; it will require some ponderous thought.

Kepler
26-06-2012, 02:49 AM
Which leads us back to the question: "Why does an apple fall down?"

Because there is a gravitational force between the earth and apple.


I might add, just to tease you.... Despite our huge advances in understanding the universe, we do not know the fundamental nature of things. We can describe such things as gravity, mass, energy, motion, spacetime.... but we still do not understand their fundamental nature. Ponder that; it will require some ponderous thought.
Define "fundamental". What else could science possibly do besides "describe" things? I'm not sure I see much to ponder here. Science is a flawed, limited approximation to reality. However, it appears (look around you) that it is the best method we have for making sense of things.


"Why does the apple fall?"
Gravitational force.
"Why is there a gravitational force?"
Because objects with mass create a gravitational field.
"Why do objects with mass create a gravitational field?"
Because they warp space.
"Why do ..."
etc, etc.

I'm am not sure why it is surprising or profound that as we dig deeper into nature we are left with more unanswered questions than when we started.

Sybilline
26-06-2012, 03:00 AM
This Dark Matter indeed is fascinating. Space makes us question our own "laws" pf Physics.

Greybeard
26-06-2012, 05:04 AM
I understand.
Keep it Simple.
Don't Rock the Boat.
Children Are to Be Seen, Not Heard.
Do Not Question Established Doctrine....

Which is what Einstein didn't do.

Kepler discovered the Laws of Planetary Orbits by taking what had been rejected as "too simple" for at least 2,000 years and trying it again.

Newton shocked the world with "gravity".
But it is interesting to note that Newtonian gravity is instantaneous; it "travels" faster than the speed of light and affects everything within its field, which stretches out to infinity, instantlly. Relativistic gravity is a slowpoke.

I'm sorry, but this old man will continue to ask dumb questions. If a person accepts "science" as their religion, and conceives of the universe as a mechanistic clockwork, that is well and good. Such an outlook is full enough of wonders to last a lifetime. But some of us perceive something deeper, beyond the mechanism, and so we look under rocks to see what we can find. And ask dumb questions.

I hope Silvergirl doesn't mind me quoting her: "Oh, and Kepler > Lighten up."

Sybilline
26-06-2012, 05:31 AM
I understand.
Keep it Simple.
Don't Rock the Boat.
Children Are to Be Seen, Not Heard.
Do Not Question Established Doctrine....

Which is what Einstein didn't do.

Kepler discovered the Laws of Planetary Orbits by taking what had been rejected as "too simple" for at least 2,000 years and trying it again.

Newton shocked the world with "gravity".
But it is interesting to note that Newtonian gravity is instantaneous; it "travels" faster than the speed of light and affects everything within its field, which stretches out to infinity, instantlly. Relativistic gravity is a slowpoke.

I'm sorry, but this old man will continue to ask dumb questions. If a person accepts "science" as their religion, and conceives of the universe as a mechanistic clockwork, that is well and good. Such an outlook is full enough of wonders to last a lifetime. But some of us perceive something deeper, beyond the mechanism, and so we look under rocks to see what we can find. And ask dumb questions.

I hope Silvergirl doesn't mind me quoting her: "Oh, and Kepler > Lighten up."

I agree Greybeard. Who was it that said "The only questions that are stupid are the ones that are never asked."? :tongue:

Kepler
26-06-2012, 02:05 PM
I understand.
Keep it Simple.
Don't Rock the Boat.
Children Are to Be Seen, Not Heard.
Do Not Question Established Doctrine....

I never said this... As you explained, most of the best scientists have rocked the boat.

My point was that no matter how much science uncovers, you will probably always be able to ask a more fundamental "why" question.



I'm sorry, but this old man will continue to ask dumb questions. If a person accepts "science" as their religion, and conceives of the universe as a mechanistic clockwork, that is well and good. Such an outlook is full enough of wonders to last a lifetime. But some of us perceive something deeper, beyond the mechanism, and so we look under rocks to see what we can find. And ask dumb questions.

Are you assuming that I don't perceive something "deeper"? BTW, the clockwork universe is a somewhat outdated picture, especially since the development of quantum mechanics.



I hope Silvergirl doesn't mind me quoting her: "Oh, and Kepler > Lighten up."

:hug3:

Greybeard
26-06-2012, 03:25 PM
I took my old VW to a quantum mechanic the other day. So now the old girl is up on blocks waiting for a spare Higgs bosun to arrive from Italy. Next time my VW breaks down I'm going to take her to our local shadetree mechanic, Willy Newton. He'll just give his speed wrench a couple of turns and get her running at light speed. I've always been curious why Willy keeps boxes and boxes of bubble gum and bailing wire on his shelves.

Silver
26-06-2012, 05:14 PM
I took my old VW to a quantum mechanic the other day. So now the old girl is up on blocks waiting for a spare Higgs bosun to arrive from Italy. Next time my VW breaks down I'm going to take her to our local shadetree mechanic, Willy Newton. He'll just give his speed wrench a couple of turns and get her running at light speed. I've always been curious why Willy keeps boxes and boxes of bubble gum and bailing wire on his shelves.

What a fun - and intriguing post, Gb. Not sure I would like to climb inside a mind that thinks such thoughts. Any talk of mechanics and Vdubs brings back quite fond memories for me - my 1st b/f here taught me how to drive stick in an old VW - it was one of the funnest things I ever did.
:cool:

Morpheus
27-03-2014, 07:30 PM
"DARK MATTER", is actually the name, now, of Art Bell's new Sirius radio show! Who's previous airings, from 2013 on, you can listen to on You Tube.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DMArchive (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fuser%252FDMArchive)

Of Interest...
Apparently a planet ten times larger than Earth may be orbiting the sun at the edge of our solar system! As evidenced by smaller objects orbiting around it.

"Researchers have discovered a dwarf planet called 2012 VP113, along with up to 900 other objects, are orbiting in a similar formation.
2012 VP113 was first observed in November 2012 and announced earlier today. It is the most distant dwarf planet to be found orbiting our sun."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2590037/Does-solar-SUPER-EARTH-Cluster-rock-edge-hints-existence-unknown-enormous-planet.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2590037/Does-solar-SUPER-EARTH-Cluster-rock-edge-hints-existence-unknown-enormous-planet.html)

http://img167.imagevenue.com/loc700/th_941890194_aLight_122_700lo.jpg (http://img167.imagevenue.com/img.php?image=941890194_aLight_122_700lo.jpg)