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amy green
09-02-2007, 02:30 PM
I've been wondering how both these can be true - i.e. that those who don't resonate with our vibe aren't attracted to us plus opposites attract. Take, for example, how Gandhi died. Why did this man of peace have a violent death - opposites attract? Could his death be karma since, in his early life he used to beat his wife? (If so this 'cause' doesn't exactly warrant the sledgehammer 'effect'!)

Opposites do attract e.g. we're attracted to those with qualities we don't have (the timid admire the feisty etc,) so doesn't this contradict the law of attraction? If they both are true and co-exist (which I believe to be the case), then 'opposites attract' must also be a law/fundamental truth but maybe not a spiritual one. If this is so, just to be told one half of the truth on attraction (the spiritual law of attraction) is distorting. Discuss!!

tiltjlp
09-02-2007, 03:52 PM
Hi Amy,

First off, a bit tongue-in-cheek, but not much, I think there are way to many "Laws". I ten to think things simply happen in most cases. If we all were teamed up with people exactly like we are, life would be boring. And with so many personality traits available, it would be near impossible to find a match that was 100% perfect. It's those differences that make life interesting.

As for Gandhi's violent death, I feel it was needed to serve as a backdrop to allow his Peaceful life to shine forth. Many spiritual leaders have met violent and tradgic ends, such as Christ and Martin Luther King.

John

dreamer
09-02-2007, 03:56 PM
Hey Amy,

great questions, I have been wondering the same things. Its seems to me that attraction may be better understood as projection. Like the thoughts and feeling you have are projected onto the screen in front of you and manifest as your dream/experience. It seems that when I feel a certain way within my body, I attract thoughts of the same frequency from above my head, these combine and a little while later lots of synchronistic events happen that are of a similar frequency to my feelings and thoughts.

Maybe Ghandi had a fear that if he died all his hard work would have been in vain, maybe this fear attracted the thought which projected into manifestation as his shooting?

Also it seems that where opposites attract there is a desire to attract that particular opposite because it feels comfortable/exciting from both parties. If you meet someone and they make you feel good, you start thinking about them more and the thoughts become manifest.

I suppose it all comes down to what you desire and fear the most, what you expect and what you believe you are capable and worthy of.

GoldChord
10-02-2007, 02:57 AM
Hi,

Attraction is attraction - whether it's the same as, opposite to, kind of connected, fragmented, or oblique. There is no contradiction between the law of attraction and opposites attracting. However, I think what you're getting at is why we attract things that might be against our best welfare, or cause us conflict. This is because we often focus on what we don't want.

My favourite example is how we remember to take things. How many times have you thought to yourself 'I mustn't forget to take that with me/to work tomorrow?' (whatever 'that' is). And of course, you're at work/wherever and you think to yourself 'doh' I forgot 'that', as you have inevitably walked out of the door without it. This is because with the law of attraction the universe doesn't distinguish between the intention. All the universe hears is 'forget that' - and there you are, you forget it. Instead, consider reframing your thought by thinking 'I must remember to take 'that' tomorrow'. This means you are focussing on what you want rather than what you don't want.

Take care.

amy green
10-02-2007, 02:30 PM
GoldChord - yes "attraction is attraction" but you haven't understood the spiritual law of attraction which does contradict opposites attract, i.e. that if others don't have our vibe (i.e. like-minded), they won't be attracted to us....get it? I feel this is a half-truth, hence this thread.

Dreamer - hi! I feel opposites attract not because it's comfortable (that's "safe", i.e. not exciting) but yes, because it's exciting and maybe we want to attain/bring out a quality in us that they have.

lemmex
10-02-2007, 06:11 PM
GoldChord - yes "attraction is attraction" but you haven't understood the spiritual law of attraction which does contradict opposites attract, i.e. that if others don't have our vibe (i.e. like-minded), they won't be attracted to us....get it? I feel this is a half-truth, hence this thread.

Dreamer - hi! I feel opposites attract not because it's comfortable (that's "safe", i.e. not exciting) but yes, because it's exciting and maybe we want to attain/bring out a quality in us that they have.

This is the idea of duality here. The though that outside the physical realm there exsits such a thing. I don't see there really is. But in my frame of reference here as I would explain to someone who asked, I agree (the term) opposites attract (at first), not becasue it's real or comfortable but this is how we learn to approach life. We are brought up this way. It is normal to us and therefore comforatble. It is how we experience. In this regards, we have a hunger for opposites because it is how we learn. It is how we learn to experience and it can be mistaken for something it is not.

In other words, there is no attraction factor. It's learning to choose in a way (The Garden thing can be an anology). We are simply learning to live life.

It's my opinion in the end boring compatibility is the most important thing we can ever hope to (learn) see. But this is counter to how we start our lives. Searching opposites is a quest, but in the end at the stage of realization, unlike the pervebal magnet image it is one that ends up repelling. Attaction and opposite are extrem ends we place in or mind. What I believe most real about opposites (initially) is it allows exploration aspects of personality. It's something we have to do because we have the strength of mind to choose.

In the beginning they are exciting and we gravitate to the experience and often this is what were talking about. There is a commonality in the end as we wind down and learn to calm our spirit. I think it is a natural occurance.
But then I don't believe in such things as Satan, evil spirits, spiritual negative energy and so on. In the end all things we be seen the same. There are certain things we embrace and certain things we don't, and to us every has to have a duality. Things attract, things repell.

I like the input made about Ghandi because I've wonder about this before as well. There 's an old saying, (paraphrased of course) it takes only one individual mad man to start a world at war, but takes a million sane men to end it. These men of opposites, such as one's that kill another are simply lost and led astray by other men who don't know how to deal with what they most desire...to find oneness.

Now having said this, I don't think the mind follows the rules of physicts unless we choose to allow it to. Truthfully, we don't even know if the mind is contained in the brain. I read this somewhere and I don't know if I will ever accept this. In any case I take a very very practical approach. I could go on for hours...but ..........................(grins)

chadley
10-02-2007, 10:37 PM
Amy, you always ask such great questions. Let me take a stab at it.

the law of attraction does not contradict the law that opposites attract. The law that opposites attract is ,as lemmex says, just the nature of duality. In truth opposites attract because they are just both components of the same thing. Take the victim/assailant anology. Though it seems that these are opposites attracting they are both born from the same emotional discord and untruth, fear. The same can be said for the timid attracting the fiesty and so on. It is only the mind that perceives these two as opposite, but the emotional origin is the same. Fear will always attract fear and never love as is the same for all emotion, both in the dual worlds and above.

Therefore, you will never ever experience anything in your world that does not match with your vibe or resonate with the energy contained within your field. It may appear so to the ego or the mind to be opposite, but it is not. Your world is a mirror of who you are on the inside, always. This is a tough truth to swallow for most, because it means that everything negative in your life is a mirror of self, but in contrast, of course, it means that everything positive in your life is also a mirror of self.

Thus, it would be more acurate to say that the law of opposite is the half-truth being that it makes up two counter balancing opposites to make the whole, and that the law of attraction is the whole truth.

Chadley.

lemmex
11-02-2007, 03:41 PM
...Your world is a mirror of who you are on the inside, always. This is a tough truth to swallow for most, because it means that everything negative in your life is a mirror of self, but in contrast, of course, it means that everything positive in your life is also a mirror of self.....


I do like the anology of the mirror of self and wholehartedly agree

TzuJanLi
12-02-2007, 12:36 PM
Greetings..

"Laws" are not immutable.. they are a set of conditions that produce undesirable consequences.. the conditions are codified by consensus, and the consequences are stipulated by agreement.. The variable is Choice.. we can choose to accept the "law", we can also choose to deny the consequences..

Laws and consequences are convenient guidelines for those that have difficulties navigating existence.. often, it is easier to let others define the path rather than make your own..

Be well...

Monkey
13-02-2007, 10:53 AM
Maybe its hormones, maybe its because I am tired, but I read it all and still don't get it. Don't bother explaining, its me, not you. ;- ) And no I am not drunk.

I believe, from memory that Freud said something along the lines of individuals finding people who fulfil the element in themselves that is missing. Therefore, a quiet shy librarian might find a mate in someone who is an extrovert and wild child. That is, there is a kind of balancing out where there are extremes in personalities and even physical characteristics. I believe there is some evolutionary psychologist or some scientists like that who believe that the reason that things like this happen is in order to keep the species strong, ie, so tall marries short and they produce children of average height, etc. In that sense opposites attract in order to balance out extremes.

Law of attraction, as I understand it is that if you focus enough on your intention, it will manifest. I think though that what we sometimes think we want is not always what we truly want. A woman who was abused by a drunken father as a child might say that she wants a healthy loving partner and yet end up with an abuser husband. Freud said that such a woman while on the surface wanted a normal partner, could not attract a normal partner because what was underlying or her real need was to find another abusive 'father' whom she could try to make things right with. This is why statistically, there is a sizeable number of rape victims who end up getting revictimised. I had such a girlfriend who was abused as a child, raped as a teenager and then raped a further two times as an adult. While she said she wanted a normal life, didn't want to be raped, she unconsciously would place herself in harms way.

I think the idea, ie, law of attraction, works, but sometimes what we say we want and what we truly want in an unconscious way isn't the same thing. Which is why being aware of the self, a fully conscious being is so important. The reason why Jesus and other great masters are able to manipulate their environment is because their beliefs, thoughts, feelings and actions were perfectly aligned, there was no discrepancy between them, hence, they had the power to direct their intentions and cause miracles to happen.

Did I come anywhere close to answering the question? Maybe I am coming down with something.

amy green
13-02-2007, 02:27 PM
Monkey - your interpretation/understanding sounds fine to me (using this law). I was questioning it at the basic level (i.e. that like attracting like didn't seem to include opposites attract).

Chadley - hi, nice to hear from you. Once again you provide me with the crucial nugget of wisdom that enables me to better understand the issue. I realise that it's only mind that perceives duality, which reminded me of the time I studied A Course In Miracles.

TzuJanli - I agree with you and I'm far from being a stickler for laws, it's just that I wanted to treat it with the respect/attention I thought it deserved, being a spiritual law. I couldn't work out how like attracting like could be compatible with opposites attract. It reminded me of a Mel Brooks film "History of the World Part 1". In this, Moses descends from the mountain clutching stone tablets. Looking down at his people he says, "Behold, I have 15 commandments". Then one of the tablets falls from his grasp and shatters. "Ten - I have 10 commandments"!!!

GoldChord - Sorry, I apologise - seems you were right that there wasn't any contradiction involved in this law. I'm wiser now.

TzuJanLi
13-02-2007, 03:26 PM
Greetings..

Complimentary opposites.. or, contrasting principles.. Yin/Yang, Light/Dark, soft/hard, etc... each necessary to define the other.. we speak of "non-duality", often without considering that the mind that expresses that thought is dual by definition.. any expressed thought is dual and the subject is dual, non-duality cannot even be expressed.. to speak it implies a speaker and an observer, to think it implies the thought and the thinker.. it's a handy notion, but wholly impractical.. to pursue it is to pursue the end of existence.. at the most basic level of the Universe there is duality, Consciousness and the absence of Consciousness, the void which cradles it.. the Primal Yin (void) and the primal Yang (Consciousness).. Since consciousness implies something to be conscious of, then the only true non-dual condition is an absolute Void, where there is no existence..

Opposites do attract, they complete the experience.. if only likes attract there will be unresolvable imbalance.. the "Law of Atraction" is better considered as the condition of preference and desire.. we seek that which we desire, to label it as a "Law" is just good marketing.. it inspires people to be more creative in their pursuit of their desires.. While it has a highly desirable attractiveness, it still implies that what you desire you create in consciousness and it will be attracted into your reality.. the basic premise, is desire.. the attractability is based on the certainty of the desire.. if anything, it is evidence of the Consciousness's Creative abilities, not a Cosmic Law..

Be well..

chadley
13-02-2007, 04:43 PM
The law of attraction applies for all, without exception in all cases. It is called a law because all are subject to it and it operates precisely in all circumstances. Do you desire to be subject to the law of gravity? Choose now to not be affected by it with all of your might, and tell me what happens. You still fall on your hinny, don't you? Does everything you desire come true? Man, lucky you. Do you really believe love ever attracts anything but love? And fear anything but fear?

Tzu, you said earlier, ""Laws" are not immutable.. they are a set of conditions that produce undesirable consequences". This statement suggests that you do not understand the law of attraction. The law of attraction, once understood, allows you to CREATE what you DESIRE".

Tzu, you and I had a really civilized and fun chat in dimensions, so I think it would be safe to try again. There is a fundamental difference in our viewpoints that I would like to discover further. I look forward to hearing from you.

Chadley.

TzuJanLi
13-02-2007, 07:13 PM
Greetings..


The law of attraction applies for all, without exception in all cases. It is called a law because all are subject to it and it operates precisely in all circumstances.

This has an oddly familiar sound to it, a certain immutable finality.. It's called a "Law" because somebody chose to call it that, not because there is some Universal Code of Statutes.. oh, science has already altered the force of gravity, i.e.: broken the "Law" (Princeton, 1999, if i recall the date correctly).. from which, the result implies the potential for producing power from a limitless supply.. the difference in measurable gravitational force initiated an electrical charge as the gravitational force seeks to rebalance itself..

But, that's not the real issue.. i watched the movie, "The Secret", and was struck with the simplistic absurdity of it.. nothing was presented that was not common knowledge to most metaphysical seekers.. The "Law of Attraction" is no more than the quality of someone's intentions.. it's not a "Law", it's your inherent ability to create your own reality. Just because a person or a group of people observe certain consistencies in the way they choose to manifest their realities, does not create a "Law" for ALL beings.. remember, humans have very limited abilities of perception.. AND, there is far too much evidence contradicting the principles of the "Law".. history is littered with examples of good and prosperous peoples being conquered by barbaric hoards, how did "like attract like"? of course, it will be easy to convert that question into a spiritual game of semantics, but.. the evidence speaks for itself.. peaceful Pacific Islanders driven to extinction by cultures they never even knew existed.. Native Americans, though not so peaceful, driven from their ancestral homeland by peoples they never even knew existed.. not even interactive Karma, in these examples.. simply one group's focused intentions over-riding another's..

Be Well..

TzuJanLi
13-02-2007, 07:16 PM
Greetings..

Hi Chadley: Absolutely, i greatly enjoy dialoguing with you, even when we passionately disagree.. please do not misconstrue my passion for disrespect, it is not so.. not even in instance previously noted, with other posters..

Be well..

chadley
13-02-2007, 09:22 PM
Tzu, I love your passion and respect you a great deal, which is why I feel inclined to address the topic with you.

It is my position that this law holds true for all including you despite what you, tzu, desire. Your position may differ, and thats fine, but in order to address my point of view, you will have to accept the fact that my view requires the understanding of double attraction (I will call it double attraction just for fun from now on) to be an immutable truth. The structure by which the universe as we know it is necessary and has purpose. If everything was simply our own separate creation without "law" or organization, than nothing we have learned in all of our lifetimes would be of any value, because it would have no basis. Now it is true, every single person controls there own world, they navigate it with choice and can determine the outcome of their life. However, they do so by discovering the positive application of universal law. They do so by the law, they choose whether to limit themselves by it, or to become limitless. The ego views this design as controlling and taking away choice because it would seem we are then pre-destined to live by these laws. However, the higher mind knows that the laws are actually the creators design and since we are the creators then we are the designers, the architect of this law. The law has already been created by our higher will and thus discord is only resolved by aligning our will in accordance with it.

You have said that non-duality cannot be perceived. Well, then, does this not make duality and immutable truth or some would say a law? Can, by your own creative will, experience non-duality? If not, than by the same definition can duality not be described as a law no different than the law of attraction? Why not?

In reality, there truly is non-duality. It cannot be experienced with the mind because the mind can only describe, it cannot experience. Can we do it justice with words, not likely. But, fortunately the mind is not the only tool that we have. We have soul, which is not dual. And we DO have soul with us at all times, it is a part of us and thus if we become so adept, we can know soul and its singular state that lies above consciousness.

Remember those example I gave Amy in regards to apparent opposites, but in reality with higher perception one can see that they are not, that they are born from the same emotion? The examples you illustrated are just more of the same kind. It is your ego that views the Native Americans as the victims and the barbaric hoards as the assailant. Just because your mind does not perceive the symbiosis behind why these occurrences played out in history does not mean that they were not equally apposing imbalances born by the same emotion. Do you believe people or entire societies to be victims of pure cosmic chance? This is simply not so.

Your view on they way the universe works is a very well put together philosophy and has much wisdom in it. However, I have found, that it is simply not true. Because, despite what scientists at Princeton have discovered, you still fall on your hinny if you don’t have a balloon.

GoldChord
14-02-2007, 02:48 AM
Chadley and TzuJanLi,

Thank you for this insightful discussion. You are both obviously well informed on this topic. Your interpretations are most useful. However, I think it is also often the case that we tend to forget what it is like to struggle with these basic ideas especially when others have been exploring them for a long time and reconciled many of the questions that arise. What is important for me and perhaps other readers of this thread is that the 'law of attraction' is profoundly simple and deeply complex because humans are both limited and timeless creatures. It is perfectly feasible to live with contradiction - but the law of attraction as it manifests in our lives is the great leveler and marker of where we really are in our lives - consciously and emotionally.

What I mean by this is that 'desire' is the problem in this relationship (between us and the law of attraction). Yes - we can create our own lives - but when we get caught up in desire and want, this is where we get in to trouble because these are emotions of the ego - they can then lead us to fear and doubt - which is then what we attract. It is perfectly feasible to be prosperous and abundant, but also harbour fear that it will be taken away - and then - it is. The so called 'peaceful' Pacific Islanders (who weren't so peaceful either) certainly were able to generate their prosperity and then be invaded. These islands are among the most remote in the world - they needed trade with surrounding islands, near and far, to survive. If you want to know more about this read Jared Diamond's Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Survive. We are contradictory creatures but the law of attraction also shows us the beautiful simplicity of our universe.

I don't know if this contributes anything to your discussion. Maybe I just needed to clarify my own position on this.

Take care.

TzuJanLi
14-02-2007, 01:50 PM
Greetings..

First, i am profoundly appreciative to be afforded the opportunity to discuss these issues with such informed and interesting people.. Thank you all..

Now, the issues..

If everything was simply our own separate creation without "law" or organization, than nothing we have learned in all of our lifetimes would be of any value, because it would have no basis.

I can't justify that position.. are you implying that for "value" there must be "Law", more specifically, the "Law of Attraction"? How does the absence of a "Law" determine "no basis".. We assign the values of any thing according to our arbitrary standards.. what one man values another discards..

The ego views this design as controlling and taking away choice because it would seem we are then pre-destined to live by these laws. However, the higher mind knows that the laws are actually the creators design and since we are the creators then we are the designers, the architect of this law. The law has already been created by our higher will and thus discord is only resolved by aligning our will in accordance with it.


Higher mind?.. here, is where i see what you refer to as "ego", separating mind into values of higher and lower.. setting boundaries and standards to satisfy the ego's need to be seen as rising to a "higher" place than another.. I do not see the situation as "controlling and taking away choice", i see it as an artificial mental construction.. a tool used to satisfy or justify the apparent inconsistencies of Life.. If, as you say, we are the creators of the "Law", then we are equally capable of rising above its limitations..

It might be a good time to ask, how do you perceive the effects of this "Law of Attraction"? How does it operate in your perspective?

If not, than by the same definition can duality not be described as a law no different than the law of attraction? Why not?


Again, here we have a situation where there is simply an existent condition.. it's not a "Law" until we box it in to our narrowly conceived operation of the Universe.. Consider the actual implications of "non-duality", the condition where there is not even 2 things.. there is only ONE thing.. if there is anything other than an absolute vaccuous void, then there is that thing AND the void, back to 2 things and no "non-dual" condition.. if there is a consciousness to perceive non-duality, then there is not non-duality.. here is where the New-Age crowd conveniently romanticizes "non-duality" without considering the depth of the meaning.. it's a nice "buzz-word", but wholly impractical.. "Laws" are just convenient ways for human intellect to categorize conditions that seem immutable..

As i predicted, "it will be easy to convert that question into a spiritual game of semantics", and so.. we now shape the "Law of Attraction" to fit a simple existent condition.. Pacific Islanders, Native Americans, etc.. it is noteworthy that the conditions exist with or without us assigning a "Law" to it.. if no one had conceived of this "law", the condition would still exist.. the "Law" is a mental construction that we shape around our perceptions and preferences.. Here, i would ask people to be very honest with themselves.. do you truly believe that there exists a set of Universal "Laws" that await our discovery and application? or, do you believe that we assign these values we call "Laws" to fit our ability to comprehend the Universe.. Remember, that history is littered with discarded "truths", previous values that were regarded as "immutable truths", but that fell in the face of the only "truth" i can accept, Change... It is inconsistent to speak of "limitlessness" and "Laws", they are mutually exclusive..

We have soul, which is not dual. And we DO have soul with us at all times, it is a part of us and thus if we become so adept, we can know soul and its singular state that lies above consciousness.

How can this be? How can we "have soul" and the soul be non-dual"? you cannot have it both ways.. it is a convenient and attractive notion, i have embraced it in the past, but.. further insights compell me to accept things "as they are", putting away judgement and values that i may have conjured to conveniently categorize my experiences.. it would be of great interest to me if someone could describe "soul" as used in the above quote..

If, as i perceive it, the suggestion of "non-dual" is based on perceptions of many converging into a singular perception of unity, then, there would be increasingly broader and broader perceptions of unity.. while still there is the perceived and the perveiver, duality..
[QUOTE]
Your view on they way the universe works is a very well put together philosophy and has much wisdom in it. However, I have found, that it is simply not true. Because, despite what scientists at Princeton have discovered, you still fall on your hinny if you don

chadley
14-02-2007, 05:24 PM
Tzu, that was a great reply, thank you. Most importantly it really helped me to understand your point of view and I think you do it tremendous justice. We may never agree, but that is even the point for me. I love discussing with people capable of backing up there points. It truly gives me pleasure. Just the fact that your posts make me pause for a second before I reply, I think is very valuable, because just like the scientists that are constantly testing the boundaries of apparent law, I do the same when I come across aspects of application that were previously not considered.

Now, where were we? Ah, yes my quote about life relying on law in order to have basis. It seems that maybe you just don

Pounamu
15-02-2007, 07:53 AM
Interesting stuff, Chadley... thank you for taking the trouble to explain all that; I agree with you! It really is great when people engage in discussions like this.

Cheers,
Pounamu

TzuJanLi
15-02-2007, 01:25 PM
Greetings..

I think we are beginning to get somewhere...

As a result, your outer circumstances will mirror your inner vibrations by attraction. So, if your energy field contains a strong vibration of anger, for example, you will attract either angry people in your life or circumstances which seem to justify your anger.

There is a separation of semantics, but the concept is intact.. some people call this "attracting".. others, including myself, call this creating or manifesting.. Creating or manifesting assigns the responsibility squarely where it belongs.. Assigning a value like a "Law" tends to let the experiencer "off the hook", as if they are subject to this "Law".. The "Law" as described in the above quote, is simply an existent condition whereby we create our experience by the energy we project..

Honestly, tzu, are you really going to pay attention to scientists for unraveling spiritual truth?

This is an example of the separation i am refering to.. I am not going to discount ANY experience based on a prejudicial label.. while i agree that "science" has largely screwed things up.. more recent developments involving scientists with metaphysical inclinations have shed some very beneficial light of the nature of existence, much of which confirms belief systems that pre-date "science" as a controlled discipline.. Wisdom is where you find it, and i have found that excluding sources based on the bias of preference can deprive the observer of some great wisdoms.. Wisdom is where you find it, the trick is to "look"..

Oops.. Must run,
Be Well..

amy green
15-02-2007, 02:23 PM
Yes science is getting interesting in the metaphysical arena! Speaking of which - Chadley - you say non-duality can't be experienced with the mind ... what about a mystical experience? (Isn't it the mind that has this amazing experience that we're all one? It can't be our soul's experience can it?)

nwc
15-02-2007, 10:19 PM
GoldChord - yes "attraction is attraction" but you haven't understood the spiritual law of attraction which does contradict opposites attract, i.e. that if others don't have our vibe (i.e. like-minded), they won't be attracted to us....get it? I feel this is a half-truth, hence this thread.

Dreamer - hi! I feel opposites attract not because it's comfortable (that's "safe", i.e. not exciting) but yes, because it's exciting and maybe we want to attain/bring out a quality in us that they have.

i disagree...

i'm in a relationship right now and we're very alike. also same thing with another eons ago.

and i've seen other long term relationships where they are very alike too.

relationships where they are opposites are cool too... but i think it's more for ones learning experience to grow and enhance... hence i think most of these in long term relationships are newer souls and also NOT soulmates.

GoldChord
16-02-2007, 02:49 AM
Hi,

What a fascinating discussion. I have enjoyed reading this thread. However, I am now going to defend the scientists - not because I am one - but because we forget what they have contributed to spirit.

Firstly, the Big Grand-Daddy scientist of them all, Isaac Newton, was a deeply religious man. He did not believe his scientific discoveries contradicted his belief in God. Rather, he saw it as revealing the divine plan and the mathematics of universal creation - not to control it or 'peak behind the curtin' so to speak but to enhance our appreciation and connection with God.

Secondly, it is perhaps the application of science as an ideology that is the problem - that scientists and authorities who stand behind its method have constructed it as the end-point, the explanation of all, leaving little room for other interpretations for the real.

Thirdly, it is to scientists who are now beginning to explore and understand quantum physics that we can begin to unpack knowledge of energy and energy fields - which is the stuff of spirit.

Fourthly, if you want to know more about the intimate and unique relationships between science and spirit you might want to read Margaret Wertheim, The Pearly Gates of Cyberspace.

Finally, NWC - how's it going? I'm going to have to present an alternative rationale for you. I think I agree that 'opposites' (because they are not really opposite in my opinion) do meet to learn from each other - but I think this is facilitated because they are indeed 'soulmates' as you termed it, or deeply connected, and are able see complexity within each other which enables them to occupy the same space and time to enable that growing experience to play itself out.

Take care.

TzuJanLi
16-02-2007, 01:45 PM
Greetings..


Yes science is getting interesting in the metaphysical arena! Speaking of which - Chadley - you say non-duality can't be experienced with the mind ... what about a mystical experience? (Isn't it the mind that has this amazing experience that we're all one? It can't be our soul's experience can it?)

The "mind" is part and parcel of the Unified Whole, it doesn't "have" the experience, it IS the experience.. its function is to interpret the experience from a spiritual perspective to a material perspective.. the experience is common to body, mind and spirit, where the mind is the interface between body and spirit.. The spirit's perspective of experiences is wholly cosmic, with the understanding that it must counsel its physical aspect.. The body's perspective of experiences is wholly physical, with the understanding that it must share the tangible aspect with the intangible spirit.. and, both body and spirit understand they must unite to have a complete experience.. Here's the deal, it's like the ocean, One thing.. but, within the One thing (ocean) is a myriad of interactive systems.. while we can isolate many of the systems, i.e.: reefs, fishes, plants, animals, etc.. it is their mutually interdependent nature that makes the Ocean what it IS.. The Ocean is ONE thing behaving in many ways..

In a simplistic analogy, the Ocean's water represents the "sea of energy" which comprises the Universe.. the medium in which all things manifest.. all the things in the Ocean ARE the Ocean, when we drive along the Ocean it's easy to perceive it as its own thing, but.. once inside the ocean (snorkeling or diving), we see that it is many things.. Now, certainly, it is fun and appropriate to focus on particular goings on inside the Ocean, but.. when we lose sight of its inherent symbiotic unity (Oneness), we begin to see the parts as equal to or greater that the Whole.. from that perspective we begin to establish categories of desirability, which sets the stage for further fragmentation of our awareness, bias, and conflict.. fragmentation, bias, separation, conflict, etc... can be mitigated through conscious awareness of the symbiotic Unity of ALL things..

In the quote referenced at the beginning of this post, the observer focuses on particular parts of a symbiotic Whole process.. which, when re-assembled into a single experience, makes perfect sense.. where the mind, and the soul and the flesh, unite.. and the experience reveals its truth.. a truth which will remain veiled from any particular isolated perspective..

A "mystical" experience usually involves our becoming aware of more elements of Unity.. A "past life experience" is is where our awareness expands to include portions of the Unified Cosmic Consciousness, that Whole which contains Everything, every experience, every "past life".. we tap into that Cosmic Memory and become aware of that portion of ourselves that was once manifested as another person/being.. imagine two current manifestations (people) accessing the Cosmic memory of a single previous manifestation, at the same instant.. to meet and merge awarenesses in a single previous experience.. i've seen it happen, it was a profound experience to observe.. the two that merged, emerged from that experience with the Peace of Christ in their eyes.. their lives have forever changed.. they understand Unity.. and, since that experience they Live it..

Be well..

nwc
17-02-2007, 01:35 AM
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Finally, NWC - how's it going? I'm going to have to present an alternative rationale for you. I think I agree that 'opposites' (because they are not really opposite in my opinion) do meet to learn from each other - but I think this is facilitated because they are indeed 'soulmates' as you termed it, or deeply connected, and are able see complexity within each other which enables them to occupy the same space and time to enable that growing experience to play itself out.

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i'm doing good..thanks... and yourself?

this happens yes... but i'm basing more on soul group ranges. sorry... i didn't explain myself well because i was in a hurry.

there are various levels/realms of soul mate groups that we connect with.

i see a lot of people get involved with others who aren't in the first 2 realms and they don't work out.
in my observance and experience... the healthies of ones are within the first 2... and for myself at least... i've found we all have a lot in common and much alike. i'm cool with this.
to each their own and opposites are good for me briefly.

and of course... one of the blessings in life is that we are always learning and attrack the right people and of any occurance be at every given moment. :)


i haven't read all the comments in this thread... just a few.. so it might of been mentioned already...

a couple nights ago i heard on the tv news about why is it that opposites attrack for some people in relationships.... they said because it has something to do with mixing genes ect and so that new talents ect run in the DNA.... mixing cultures so that it brings more newness to families when couples are breeding.

i don't know... gay, straight or bi-sexual... it happens in all groups.... also in just friendships.

i love a varitey of friends and differences. but sexualy... i prefer a lot in common and differences of course...

amy green
17-02-2007, 02:25 PM
Tzu - thanks for the explanation; it makes sense. I kind of felt that the mind/we are part of the whole, hence can experience more than duality (e.g. mystical experiences). Chadly, I welcome your take on this too!

nwc - like you say, you haven't read the whole thread; if you did you would understand that there was no need to disagree with me. (I wasn't saying that either like attracting like exists to the exclusion of opposites attract, but was trying to understand why this law of attraction didn't mention that opposites don't attract). I've become clearer on this issue thanks to this thread.

chadley
17-02-2007, 06:46 PM
Amy, I think that Tzu really did a great job answering your question. I agree with him completely in the way he describes the minds function in experience. Just remember that the ego wants separation and it is the minds inclination to want to believe that you are experiencing with it only. Thus, to really experience non-duality, one of the first steps is to let go of the mind, silence it so that you can experience and feel what lies above and behind it. Soul is the universal symphony of music that is always playing its music, but in order to hear it, we must learn to quiet mind, or the audience which is yelling and cheering so loudly for most, they can't hear the music.

When you ask, "It can't be our souls experience can it?", try not to think of it as soul's experience or mind's, but rather our experience of soul. Soul already exists within the unified non-dual state and does not need to take action or create experience. At soul level, we already are perfect and one with god. Therefore, the action should be taken to rise above the chaos of the lower mind, so that we may hear the universal whisper of god. Once we see this as a whole concept and understand the minds function, we don't need to disregard the mind all the time, but rather use mind as another tool of soul towards the overall goal of integrating the conditions of higher spirit into the lower experience and thus resolving the chaos of mental, emotional and physical chaos.

Chadley.

angelicious
18-02-2007, 12:09 AM
Ah, Chadley, I've read your replies to this thread and they are fantastic!
I feel akin to you on this topic, you took the word right out of my mouth, cheers.

amy green
20-02-2007, 10:34 AM
Tzu - I've had time to digest what you said (can't think clearly at the computer - electromagnetic radiation!). I believe it is our souls (not our minds) that are part of the unified whole, that we return to at death. However, maybe we're just debating terminology here since, I can see that there's a higher consciousness that our minds have access to (e.g. the 12 monkeys syndrome).

If our mind itself is the experience (and with don't have experiences with the mind, how come we can become self-aware of this process/experience/emotion, i.e. one distance removed from this?

Chadley - I understand what you're saying about the mind being able to experience non-duality. There's an established Buddhist doctrine - emotional detachment - (you may be familiar with), whereby you "watch" your emotions come and go. I tend to do this when I need to (e.g. at potentially stressful times). Is this an example of non-duality?