Awareness Of Being Aware.

[Rememoration]

Well, this all starts back to when I was a young kid. About the age of 8 or nine. I was pretty anti-social and spent my time on my own, thinking and such.
I have always been interested in what really is , so I'd lounge on my bed thinking of theories I could make and become famous (LOL).
One day, it was as if suddenly I had realized I was me. And I could sense me.
I was left COMPLETELY confused, because no matter what, I could not explain the feeling I had of being aware of myself. I'd tell people and such, and they'd just say that maybe I'm a bit self centered.
But I wasn't thinking about myself, I was thinking about my inner self. I came to a break through, I was aware of it then , but left it behind because no one could understand me . I just though I was a weird kid, (Which I was.).
About a few weeks ago, I start researching things about the 'Inner self'.
I had come across so many enlightening articles and videos that really got me thinking.
And just a moment ago I thought, "Wait..Wa-..Hmm.. WAIT A SECOND!" I remember how I felt. If I really concentrate on it now, i can feel the presence of me. The feeling is , again really hard to explain.
I used to try and explain is as self awareness, but that didn't fit it right. I always explained it as Immense self awareness, "I think therefore I am I understood that concept. But now it's more of a "I am therefore I think".
Ever since I've had the feeling of breaking through. Then again I might be crazy, but I just know it's true.

[Enlightener]

Awareness is the first step.

Aware of being aware is the second step.

Aware that you are aware that you are aware is the third step.

Being aware that you aware that you are aware that you are aware is the fourth step.

Awareness of an awareness of an awareness of being aware of an awareness is the fifth step...

I could do this all day :D

Yes?

[Rememoration]

Awareness is the first step.

Aware of being aware is the second step.

Aware that you are aware that you are aware is the third step.

Being aware that you aware that you are aware that you are aware is the fourth step.

Awareness of an awareness of an awareness of being aware of an awareness is the fifth step...

I could do this all day :D

Yes?

LOL , Indeed we could.
It seems as if everything is slowly falling into place with me. Not neccesairly my life, but things that I had thought about so much but I couldn't quite put my finger on what it could be.
The things I experienced and brushed off as,"Nonsense." or always attempting to find a scientific reason to everything.
I have a really strong sense of enlightenment at the moment.
As if everything I wanted to know , I have unveiled, that I have discovered me. WHat an exciting feeling!

[Enlightener]

It's great isn't it?

[moke64916]

You were being. It doesn't work as awareness manifesting into more awareness. He is wrong. What you felt was your inner stillness. 1st Step: become aware of your thoughts. Don't 'be' your thoughts. Be the observer of the thoughts. Don't judge them. Just observe silently as the observer. There is a wealth of intelligence beyond thought. It brings you present in the moment

2nd step: observe your bodies emotions the same way you observe your thoughts. Don't 'Be' your emotions. Be the observer

With this you are fully aware and peaceful. You have now entered the realm of no-mind. You are aware and fully present. This peace does not have an end to it. It gets deeper and deeper. Then you feel the joy of being.

Next you have already mastered the realm of being. Then start observing your reactions. Practice 'Being' around others. When you master all three, you will then be a master. Trust me. I've been through all of this. These are the steps into becoming a master.

Peace,

Moke

[Rememoration]

You were being. It doesn't work as awareness manifesting into more awareness. He is wrong. What you felt was your inner stillness. 1st Step: become aware of your thoughts. Don't 'be' your thoughts. Be the observer of the thoughts. Don't judge them. Just observe silently as the observer. There is a wealth of intelligence beyond thought. It brings you present in the moment

2nd step: observe your bodies emotions the same way you observe your thoughts. Don't 'Be' your emotions. Be the observer

With this you are fully aware and peaceful. You have now entered the realm of no-mind. You are aware and fully present. This peace does not have an end to it. It gets deeper and deeper. Then you feel the joy of being.

Next you have already mastered the realm of being. Then start observing your reactions. Practice 'Being' around others. When you master all three, you will then be a master. Trust me. I've been through all of this. These are the steps into becoming a master.

Peace,

Moke
Inner stillness you say? I often accompanied the feeling of observing myself as alone.
As if I was one and saw the world through one eye.
I'm a beginner, so there is still much I'd like to understand.
There are things I've experience and experience to this very day, that I still can't decipher, and still try to cover them with reason.
But, what does becoming a 'master' bring?
Is there anything past knowing you are and experiencing the self?
Is it just purely knowledge of I, or is it followed with other knowledge.
I just want to know.

[BlueSky]

Is there anything past knowing you are and experiencing the self? Rememoration

That's exactly how i feel since realizing and experienced life knowing itself. There is nothing to know after that. It is all that can be known and when it's known, it's known. The rest is learning to work with it.
Blessings, James

[Rememoration]

It is all that can be known and when it's known, it's known. The rest is learning [/QUOTE]

Could you possibly explain that a little better?

[BlueSky]

It is all that can be known and when it's known, it's known. The rest is learning

Could you possibly explain that a little better?[/quote]

Recently life became aware of itself in me.........that part cannot be explained but I feel you realize that too. This realization is knowing but beyond that there is nothing to know.
Life aware of itself now expresses itself thru this bodymind and is aware of itself thru it.
There is nothing to do other than what life does thru you. What life thinks thru you and what life feels thru you.
Learning may not be the right word. Getting use to it as it is like being born again is more like it.
It's easy, I find, to slip into unawareness. Life unaware of itself. Noticing that, is probably what i am learning if anything.
I notice that I can speak from unawareness or I can let speaking happen. I notice the difference.
This realization is relatively new to me so keep that in mind as you read my words.
I'm a 52 year old toddler..........and all that can be known, really known, is known.
I am awake.......................
Does that explain it better?
James

[moke64916]

It sounds like you have already had an awakening. Enlightenment is just the beginning. The deep sense of peace deepens. Your truths get deeper and deeper. You will feel wonderful. total freedom. You will feel liberated. I'd start with observing your thoughts. You've already experienced this awareness. The more you observe your thoughts, the more aware you will become. It will bring you present in the moment. If I were you, I'd read the book, "The Power of Now" and "practicing the Power of Now.". I have a feeling it will all start clicking in for you. Trust me, those books will help you a lot.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

There is only the looking.. and what is seen for what it 'is', refines and evolves 'that' which is looking..

Be well..

[BlueSky]

Greetings..

There is only the looking.. and what is seen for what it 'is', refines and evolves 'that' which is looking..

Be well..

"There is only the looking" resonates.........."refining and evolving 'that' which is looking"
does appear to be what is happening but for some reason i have trouble accepting that.
It does make sense though as I have been thinking lately that all this makes no sense without some purpose, if you will.
I guess what I am saying is it doesn't matter what I think, the fact remains I am being refined and evolving in a certain direction.
Just sharing
James

[Enlightener]

Loving all the different viewpoints on this :smile:

[Rememoration]

Could you possibly explain that a little better?

Recently life became aware of itself in me.........that part cannot be explained but I feel you realize that too. This realization is knowing but beyond that there is nothing to know.
Life aware of itself now expresses itself thru this bodymind and is aware of itself thru it.
There is nothing to do other than what life does thru you. What life thinks thru you and what life feels thru you.
Learning may not be the right word. Getting use to it as it is like being born again is more like it.
It's easy, I find, to slip into unawareness. Life unaware of itself. Noticing that, is probably what i am learning if anything.
I notice that I can speak from unawareness or I can let speaking happen. I notice the difference.
This realization is relatively new to me so keep that in mind as you read my words.
I'm a 52 year old toddler..........and all that can be known, really known, is known.
I am awake.......................
Does that explain it better?
James[/QUOTE]

It did, thank you. :)

[Rememoration]

It sounds like you have already had an awakening.

Well, that goes hand in hand with the issue I've recently found myself having.
I feel enlightened , I feel pleasure in being enlightened. But what I could do then, I can't do now.
I try to remember how it felt, to be aware of me .
I used to also explain it as, being one alone in the universe.
As if I wasn't me looking through my eyes, as if I was a watcher.
Hm, it's hard to explain. It's like I wasn't aware of anything but being aware of everything?... UGH.
As if I was just perceiving things, only perceiving things.
I try now, and I can't seem to get that feeling anymore.

[moke64916]

That's just the thing. The mind cannot understand what you experienced. You experienced the indescribable.

[Lisa]

Could you possibly explain that a little better?

Recently life became aware of itself in me.........that part cannot be explained but I feel you realize that too. This realization is knowing but beyond that there is nothing to know.
Life aware of itself now expresses itself thru this bodymind and is aware of itself thru it.
There is nothing to do other than what life does thru you. What life thinks thru you and what life feels thru you.
Learning may not be the right word. Getting use to it as it is like being born again is more like it.
It's easy, I find, to slip into unawareness. Life unaware of itself. Noticing that, is probably what i am learning if anything.
I notice that I can speak from unawareness or I can let speaking happen. I notice the difference.
This realization is relatively new to me so keep that in mind as you read my words.
I'm a 52 year old toddler..........and all that can be known, really known, is known.
I am awake.......................
Does that explain it better?
James[/quote]

Woo-hoo! Awesome post James!!! :icon_sunny:

(I'm gonna have to start reading your posts more often. :D )

[Sentientno1]

Well, that goes hand in hand with the issue I've recently found myself having.
I feel enlightened , I feel pleasure in being enlightened. But what I could do then, I can't do now.
I try to remember how it felt, to be aware of me .
I used to also explain it as, being one alone in the universe.
As if I wasn't me looking through my eyes, as if I was a watcher.
Hm, it's hard to explain. It's like I wasn't aware of anything but being aware of everything?... UGH.
As if I was just perceiving things, only perceiving things.
I try now, and I can't seem to get that feeling anymore.

"As if I wasn't me looking through my eyes, as if I was a watcher."

Which is what i have called it. It does not have names for things. It does not have values for things, it does not recognise, things as things, it is not aware of a place it is, nor a thing it is.

You need not try to get that feeling, it hasn't left. When you are quiet in musing moment or relaxed you will find there is a slow but sure thinning perception of what is called external/object/experience. It doesn't have the 'truth' it used to have. The brilliance that underlies it becomes more apparent.
And saying that, just now i understand why.

It does not disappear over the horizen Rememoration, it integrates, and then reclaims by default.

[Xan]

Is there anything past knowing you are and experiencing the self?
Is it just purely knowledge of I, or is it followed with other knowledge.
I just want to know.


Yes... there's lots more to discover in the self and The Self, not by thinking but by silently seeing and feeling.


Just keep going.


Xan

[Rememoration]

"As if I wasn't me looking through my eyes, as if I was a watcher."

Which is what i have called it. It does not have names for things. It does not have values for things, it does not recognise, things as things, it is not aware of a place it is, nor a thing it is.

You need not try to get that feeling, it hasn't left. When you are quiet in musing moment or relaxed you will find there is a slow but sure thinning perception of what is called external/object/experience. It doesn't have the 'truth' it used to have. The brilliance that underlies it becomes more apparent.
And saying that, just now i understand why.

It does not disappear over the horizen Rememoration, it integrates, and then reclaims by default.

Right, thank you.
Meditation should help.

[Xan]

Rememoration:

Recently life became aware of itself in me.........that part cannot be explained but I feel you realize that too. This realization is knowing but beyond that there is nothing to know.
Life aware of itself now expresses itself thru this bodymind and is aware of itself thru it.

I love this way of describing this awakening.... life aware of itself.


Xan

[earthprowler]

when anyone became aware, have you ever walked in a large area full of other people and became aware that they weren't aware? i call them sleep walkers.

[mattie]

You’re in very good company of MANY here who were anti-social & (supposedly) weird kids. LOL. You're absolutely NOT crazy, you're awakening.

It is very likely that you connected w/ your higher self (HS). It’s always really interesting & great fun when we run across articles that discuss an energetic experience that we instantly know is what we experienced.

We are one aspect of an extended energy field. Some call this extended energy field the SELF (in contrast to our earthly presence, our individuality/self), Oversoul or Soul Family. We have other aspects in different dimensions (Ds). Our HS is part of it too.

Higher Self- http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=254418#post254418

For more info. about the Ds & our journey through them, check out multidimensions.com.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

"I" am Life.. and, Life is aware of itself, 'self-aware'.. as an undifferentiated Whole, i look into the void and nothing is there, nothing to look back and have a relationship with, to feel, to see, to 'know'.. i set myself free from 'me', birthing 'me' into the void as unique and independent free willed versions of myself.. now, when i look into the void, Life looks back and i see 'myself', and i feel 'me' in a Universe of relationships exploring my 'self-awareness'.. Now, "I" am "me", in all my forms and shapes, tangible AND intangible, One Whole AND many Parts..

"I" 'look', while my mind is still and quiet, and silence reveals what i 'know'.. and, i 'see' through the countless many eyes of Life, that "I" am greater by virtue of the synergy of my many Parts, than i am as an undifferentiated Whole.. Unity, the collective synergy of 'me', is infinitely more capable of realizing 'my' potential, than "I" am as a singularity..

Be well..

Be well..

[moke64916]

Greetings..

"I" am Life.. and, Life is aware of itself, 'self-aware'.. as an undifferentiated Whole, i look into the void and nothing is there, nothing to look back and have a relationship with, to feel, to see, to 'know'.. i set myself free from 'me', birthing 'me' into the void as unique and independent free willed versions of myself.. now, when i look into the void, Life looks back and i see 'myself', and i feel 'me' in a Universe of relationships exploring my 'self-awareness'.. Now, "I" am "me", in all my forms and shapes, tangible AND intangible, One Whole AND many Parts..

"I" 'look', while my mind is still and quiet, and silence reveals what i 'know'.. and, i 'see' through the countless many eyes of Life, that "I" am greater by virtue of the synergy of my many Parts, than i am as an undifferentiated Whole.. Unity, the collective synergy of 'me', is infinitely more capable of realizing 'my' potential, than "I" am as a singularity..

Be well..

Be well..
Great way of putting it. :smile:

[BlueSky]

Recently life became aware of itself in me.........that part cannot be explained but I feel you realize that too. This realization is knowing but beyond that there is nothing to know.
Life aware of itself now expresses itself thru this bodymind and is aware of itself thru it.
There is nothing to do other than what life does thru you. What life thinks thru you and what life feels thru you.
Learning may not be the right word. Getting use to it as it is like being born again is more like it.
It's easy, I find, to slip into unawareness. Life unaware of itself. Noticing that, is probably what i am learning if anything.
I notice that I can speak from unawareness or I can let speaking happen. I notice the difference.
This realization is relatively new to me so keep that in mind as you read my words.
I'm a 52 year old toddler..........and all that can be known, really known, is known.
I am awake.......................
Does that explain it better?
James

Woo-hoo! Awesome post James!!! :icon_sunny:

(I'm gonna have to start reading your posts more often. :D )[/quote]

LOL.........love them "Woo-Hoo's" (and smilies) :hug3:

[Xan]

"I" am Life.. and, Life is aware of itself, 'self-aware'.. as an undifferentiated Whole, i look into the void and nothing is there, nothing to look back and have a relationship with, to feel, to see, to 'know'.. i set myself free from 'me', birthing 'me' into the void as unique and independent free willed versions of myself.. now, when i look into the void, Life looks back and i see 'myself', and i feel 'me' in a Universe of relationships exploring my 'self-awareness'.. Now, "I" am "me", in all my forms and shapes, tangible AND intangible, One Whole AND many Parts..

"I" 'look', while my mind is still and quiet, and silence reveals what i 'know'.. and, i 'see' through the countless many eyes of Life, that "I" am greater by virtue of the synergy of my many Parts, than i am as an undifferentiated Whole.. Unity, the collective synergy of 'me', is infinitely more capable of realizing 'my' potential, than "I" am as a singularity..


Beautifully said, Tzu.


Xan

[Rememoration]

Sorry it took me so long to comment back to some of these.
I'm going to summarize some what you guys have said, to get a better understand of it all.
The Highers elf, is simply me, my soul, the real me not my physical third dimensional body and all the aspects bound to it.
Awareness of the higher self, is being aware you're not just bobby, or johnny, that you're more than what you've experienced in how many years of your own life.
That being aware of the self is a shift in awareness, that happens to many people, and doesn't happen to some at all.
Achieving this awareness comes with being aware of not just yourself, but a greater truth.
I'm definitely constantly learning, but I want to learn more.
And, what is you guys's insight on the 2012 world shift in awareness? Will all people suddenly become aware of their higher selves and other energy that is normally not visible to us ?

[Xan]

...being aware of the self is a shift in awareness, that happens to many people, and doesn't happen to some at all.

At least not yet, Remoration. It's inevitable that everyone returns to awareness in the truth of us all at some point in their human evolution. How could it be otherwise?


...what is you guys's insight on the 2012 world shift in awareness? Will all people suddenly become aware of their higher selves and other energy that is normally not visible to us ?

No, not suddenly or all at once. Changes happen gradually, little by little, one by one... including awakening in the higher self. This process is already well begun and increasing, although some people will take much longer. I see 2012 as a point-of-no-return in this momentum.

As I say it, Grace is on the move.


Xan

[moke64916]

I see enlightenment in the future. Gradually, but increasing. This is part of the human evolution. As earth moves faster and faster though the universe, earths frequency will rise. Higher vibrations that of a new era. Right now humans across the world are in the process of clearing subconscious blocks/fears. It's part of the grandior plan of the Cosmos.

[Rememoration]

Yes, yes, I've been reading up on many different theories of what's really going to happen in 2012.
I believe that there would simply be no reason for us to exist, if we're just going to be completely wiped away by some cataclysmic disaster.
The idea that the earth's undergoing an era of ascension, doesn't just make sense with all the points and facts , but just 'feels' correct.
I can 'feel' it happening.
Supposedly we'll evolve into a new race, Homo Luminous I think it is.
Beings of light and whatnot, I just don't understand how we'd really leave our 3D world and ascend into the fifth dimension without dying.
Do you guys think that the last step in ascension will result in body death?
Plus, can someone overview these 'Dimensions".
So far I know they are separated by vibrations, beings that vibrate at a higher frequency reside in dimensions higher than our three dimensional .
How many dimensions are there? 7?
I'm sorry if I'm switching the focus to the topic, I'm just taking advantage of the people who are active in the thread to help clear up some things for me. xD

[moke64916]

The body can be alive and on a frequency that of the 5th dimension. There are 9 dimensions. Other theorists say 10.

[Lisa]

Awareness of being aware.

Is different from Awareness being aware of Itself.

The latter is awakening.

[Rememoration]

The body can be alive and on a frequency that of the 5th dimension. There are 9 dimensions. Other theorists say 10.
Ahhh. I see.

[Xan]

And still others say there are 12 dimensions... Then there are dimensions within dimensions.

Existence is exquisitely complex and can't be defined in the 3 dimensional terms of our world... but it can be explored beyond the body-mind.


Xan

[Topology]

Awareness of being aware.

Is different from Awareness being aware of Itself.

The latter is awakening.

Yes, they are different, but they are both shifts in the tone of the individual's being. We start out identified with reaction, no thought or understanding to being aware. It eases the trauma to the self-identity to first become aware of being aware and then plumbing the depths of awareness before Awareness realizes itself as what is really aware. Both events shift the understanding being cultivated within the mind .

[Lisa]

Yes, they are different, but they are both shifts in the tone of the individual's being. We start out identified with reaction, no thought or understanding to being aware. It eases the trauma to the self-identity to first become aware of being aware and then plumbing the depths of awareness before Awareness realizes itself as what is really aware.

I can see this, makes sense. But most don't know noth'n 'bout awareness being aware of itself. That it even Is.

Both events shift the understanding being cultivated within the mind .

I don't know about this Top! :smile:

[Topology]

I don't know about this Top! :smile:


You ever have a realization you wouldn't have had without awareness becoming aware of itself?

[Lisa]

You ever have a realization you wouldn't have had without awareness becoming aware of itself?

Awareness becoming aware of itself Was the realization.

But I meant this part-


Both events shift the understanding being cultivated within the mind .

"understanding"- and "cultivated within the mind."

"the peace that surpasses all understanding"- and understanding being of the mind- there is nothing to understand.

And "cultivate" is like a time thing, and "within the mind"- "within" okay- but not within the mind.

[Topology]

Awareness becoming aware of itself Was the realization.

But I meant this part-

.

"understanding"- and "cultivated within the mind."

"the peace that surpasses all understanding"- and understanding being of the mind- there is nothing to understand.

And "cultivate" is like a time thing, and "within the mind"- "within" okay- but not within the mind.

I find that the words generated in order to speak, write, communicate, they arise within the mind. I find the mind exists within awareness, is informed by awareness. That the speech content and speech pattern evolves under the influence of awareness.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

I find that the words generated in order to speak, write, communicate, they arise within the mind. I find the mind exists within awareness, is informed by awareness. That the speech content and speech pattern evolves under the influence of awareness.
Hi Topo: Do you perceive a benefit from this level of describing what is happening? If so, what benefit do you perceive?

Be well..

[Lisa]

Topology-I find that the words generated in order to speak, write, communicate, they arise within the mind. I find the mind exists within awareness, is informed by awareness. That the speech content and speech pattern evolves under the influence of awareness.

Ok

[Topology]

Greetings..


Hi Topo: Do you perceive a benefit from this level of describing what is happening? If so, what benefit do you perceive?

Be well..


Those seem like the natural categories. If there is a more intuitive categorization, I'm willing to look and see it differently.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Those seem like the natural categories. If there is a more intuitive categorization, I'm willing to look and see it differently.
If you didn't assign the terms of 'mind' and 'awareness', would the words and thoughts still arise? Is it more intuitive to to parse-out meanings, or to utilize the thoughts and words that arise to organize change within the environment?

Be well..

PS: I'm off to a meeting, but i'm very interested in your perspective, thanks..

[Topology]

Greetings..


If you didn't assign the terms of 'mind' and 'awareness', would the words and thoughts still arise? Is it more intuitive to to parse-out meanings, or to utilize the thoughts and words that arise to organize change within the environment?

Be well..

PS: I'm off to a meeting, but i'm very interested in your perspective, thanks..


I don't have to call a tree a tree in order to look at it and see it. Can you elaborate on the bolded, I am not following.

[Topology]

If you are suggesting that my saying "within the mind" is vacuous in meaning because that is where thoughts are and I did not need to say it... Ok. I'm tired. Been up all night. :)

[moke64916]

I've found that your 'perspective' generates the type of thoughts you will think.

[Topology]

I've found that your 'perspective' generates the type of thoughts you will think.


Can you explain how perspective changes the type of thoughts?

[moke64916]

Perspective as in your mood. Your bodies emotions generates the thoughts you will think. For example: if you feel fearful, then your thoughts will be that of fear. If your joyful, then your thoughts will be positive. Perspective as in mood. You will either think with your conscious, subconscious or superconscious.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Greetings..

If you didn't assign the terms of 'mind' and 'awareness', would the words and thoughts still arise? Is it more intuitive to to parse-out meanings, or to utilize the thoughts and words that arise to organize change within the environment?
Be well..

PS: I'm off to a meeting, but i'm very interested in your perspective, thanks..

I don't have to call a tree a tree in order to look at it and see it. Can you elaborate on the bolded, I am not following.Hi Topo: In my original query, i had asked; "Do you perceive a benefit from this level of describing what is happening? If so, what benefit do you perceive?".. Relative to the following:
I find that the words generated in order to speak, write, communicate, they arise within the mind. I find the mind exists within awareness, is informed by awareness. That the speech content and speech pattern evolves under the influence of awareness.
The bolded part is an inquiry as to the usefulness of examining the mechanics of thoughts arising, when the mechanics being discussed are subjective and speculative, and based on an unconventional language model.. the issue, as i have observed, is relatively isolated groups engaged in circular discussions of matters they feel attached to, while.. as in the case of "thoughts arising", the application of the thoughts to change the circumstances that loop back into the circular nature of group's interests might be more productive.. I had asked about the benefits of this perception as it may have revealed something that could have precluded me from further inquiry..

Be well..

[hybrid]

topology is making a map of consciousness and explains that the relationship between mind and awareness is like a son to a father. meaning to say, awareness is fundamental than mind .

the benefits are for those like minded people who wanted to explore more deeply into process or nature of our inner being. , tops is mapping out consciousness, and anyone who wanted to explore their own nature of being should benefit by being guided by the map when its their turn to look (the itch) for themselves.

imo, this circle that uses this kind of map is growing because they find it to be fairly accurate.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

topology is making a map of consciousness and explains that the relationship between mind and awareness is like a son to a father. meaning to say, awareness is fundamental than mind .

the benefits are for those like minded people who wanted to explore more deeply into process or nature of our inner being. , tops is mapping out consciousness, and anyone who wanted to explore their own nature of being should benefit by being guided by the map when its their turn to look (the itch) for themselves.

imo, this circle that uses this kind of map is growing because they find it to be fairly accurate.
Hi hybrid: And, i would counter that awareness, is dependent upon mind.. mind categorizes and assigns values related to hierarchy, such that a redefined value for 'awareness' assumes 'awareness' to be more fundamental than the mind that redefined that value.. can you describe your understanding of your 'inner nature of being'? i ask only because i'm unclear of the boundary between 'inner and outer', unless you are referring to your private mindscape..

Be well..

[Xan]

awareness is fundamental than mind

Yep. How do we know? We can be aware without mind activity, in silence, but we cannot have mind activity without awareness at some level.


Xan

[Gem]

I think they mean I'm aware of thoughts, so awareness is more fun than mental.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

awareness is fundamental than mind

Yep. How do we know? We can be aware without mind activity, in silence, but we cannot have mind activity without awareness at some level.


Xan
Hi Xan: There is a difference between being aware, and the term 'awareness' as used in the referenced statement by hybrid.. if there is no difference, if 'awareness' is simply the capacity for perceiving.. then awareness is dependent on 'that' which has such a capacity, and there are numerous beliefs about 'awareness' that are no longer valid..

Be well..

[sound]

For me, 'Awareness of Being Aware' is being 'self aware' ...

[hybrid]

Greetings..


Hi hybrid: And, i would counter that awareness, is dependent upon mind.. mind categorizes and assigns values related to hierarchy, such that a redefined value for 'awareness' assumes 'awareness' to be more fundamental than the mind that redefined that value.. can you describe your understanding of your 'inner nature of being'? i ask only because i'm unclear of the boundary between 'inner and outer', unless you are referring to your private mindscape..

Be well.. yes it's an investigation upon oneself. that is why its called a map. others can then take from that, if they don't like it like you do, that's fine too, but there are evidence that this map is useful to others.

as much i you wanted to be simple, mind is not simple, its a complex thing, otherwise the great thinkers since plato would have pinned it down already.

now to simplify and understand the mind, we need to ask what constitute the mind. and we can use our own mind to answer the question. we find that the mind is composed of awareness, emotions, feelings, sensations, memories, imaginations, thoughts and its associations. and among these things one can find that only awareness must be present for the mind to be mind, the rest can be present or not but the mind will still be present, this is why tops make a distinction between the mind and awareness, to separate awareness from the rests to give one a clear perspective, this is also why practice of equanimity and mindfulness is develop, to be a watcher, to make it clear that the foundation of mind is awareness.

now this can be done by everyone, so this is beyond the scope of private mindscape. its true for everyone for those who care t o look honestly . like rikki we we want to point something, but we need to tell them what they suppose to look for, i find your suggestion really absurd to just look and don't tell them what to look and let them just see what ever they could see. this is absurd. when we ask to look, the natural reaction of people is look what/where? so the thing that is ask to look for is also provided. is it not?

[Enlightener]

For me, 'Awareness of Being Aware' is being 'self aware' ...


So that would mean being aware of the awareness of being aware, is awareness of others? :wink:

[Silver]

as much i you wanted to be simple, mind is not simple, its a complex thing, otherwise the great thinkers since plato would have pinned it down already.


Were they ever really trying to 'pin it down' or just enjoying exercising their thoughts / mind?

[Gem]

yes it's an investigation upon oneself. that is why its called a map. others can then take from that, if they don't like it like you do, that's fine too, but there are evidence that this map is useful to others.

as much i you wanted to be simple, mind is not simple, its a complex thing, otherwise the great thinkers since plato would have pinned it down already.

now to simplify and understand the mind, we need to ask what constitute the mind. and we can use our own mind to answer the question. we find that the mind is composed of awareness, emotions, feelings, sensations, memories, imaginations, thoughts and its associations. and among these things one can find that only awareness must be present for the mind to be mind, the rest can be present or not but the mind will still be present, this is why tops make a distinction between the mind and awareness, to separate awareness from the rests to give one a clear perspective, this is also why practice of equanimity and mindfulness is develop, to be a watcher, to make it clear that the foundation of mind is awareness.

now this can be done by everyone, so this is beyond the scope of private mindscape. its true for everyone for those who care t o look honestly . like rikki we we want to point something, but we need to tell them what they suppose to look for, i find your suggestion really absurd to just look and don't tell them what to look and let them just see what ever they could see. this is absurd. when we ask to look, the natural reaction of people is look what/where? so the thing that is ask to look for is also provided. is it not?

Yeah... but you failed to say what to look for.

[andrew g]

Not sure I want to get involved in this but I would say that awareness of being aware is self awareness, and I would say that being aware of the awareness of being aware is awareness aware of itself (or 'realization')

And as for being aware of the awareness of the awareness of being aware.....hehehe....well thats uber-realization!

[sound]

So that would mean being aware of the awareness of being aware, is awareness of others? :wink:
I dont know what else it means EL ...

[Gem]

Wow... awareness. :icon_eek:

[Topology]

Greetings..


Hi hybrid: And, i would counter that awareness, is dependent upon mind.. mind categorizes and assigns values related to hierarchy, such that a redefined value for 'awareness' assumes 'awareness' to be more fundamental than the mind that redefined that value.. can you describe your understanding of your 'inner nature of being'? i ask only because i'm unclear of the boundary between 'inner and outer', unless you are referring to your private mindscape..

Be well..

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=317260#post317260

In the linked thread I have posted two posts one about the process of scientific investigation itself and the other about what scientific investigation would look like applied to spirituality. This would be about developing an intersubjectively verified ontology of experience. In order to develop the ontology we would need to rely on the qualities we experience to create a terrain and use difference in qualities to draw distinctions. These distinctions become the basis of categories in the ontology. We are talking about a phenomenological account of existence. You can call things whatever you want, but it is the qualities which anchor the distinctions and categorizations in place, so it is much more helpful if the categories were given qualitatively descriptive names. What this means is that we are always chopping up the experience in order to give things names and associate a developing understanding. In this system, the faculty of perception of quality is more supreme that what it perceives.

Is it the mind that is aware? Or is the mind something that we are aware of? What is seen is not what is seeing. I see mind. I also see that the condition of mind is influenced by the faculty of being aware, I.e. that being aware of the mind causes the mind to evolve. Placing awareness inside the category of the mind causes the category "mind" to include all experience and every faculty. This can be done, but then we have to stop using "mind" as the name for the region of experience corresponding to mentation, thinking, memory, etc. There would be nothing outside the mind and it would be the absolute ground of being. This conflicts with language and advice talking about needing to go beyond the mind to develop a more fundamental and truer perspective. Even you talk about stilling the mind (as from outside the mind affecting it's condition), which says that the mind is a sub-category, not a super-category. If awareness is within the mind then awareness has no capacity to influence the quality of the mind. I experience the mind as an object of awareness, which places the faculty of awareness outside of the category of mind.

[moke64916]

Science said we are only out of our mind for nanoseconds.

[Topology]

Science said we are only out of our mind for nanoseconds.


That is studying the mind as cognition within the brain of another person and not studying mind from your own subjective experience with it.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=317260#post317260

In the linked thread I have posted two posts one about the process of scientific investigation itself and the other about what scientific investigation would look like applied to spirituality. This would be about developing an intersubjectively verified ontology of experience. In order to develop the ontology we would need to rely on the qualities we experience to create a terrain and use difference in qualities to draw distinctions. These distinctions become the basis of categories in the ontology. We are talking about a phenomenological account of existence. You can call things whatever you want, but it is the qualities which anchor the distinctions and categorizations in place, so it is much more helpful if the categories were given qualitatively descriptive names. What this means is that we are always chopping up the experience in order to give things names and associate a developing understanding. In this system, the faculty of perception of quality is more supreme that what it perceives.

Is it the mind that is aware? Or is the mind something that we are aware of? What is seen is not what is seeing. I see mind. I also see that the condition of mind is influenced by the faculty of being aware, I.e. that being aware of the mind causes the mind to evolve. Placing awareness inside the category of the mind causes the category "mind" to include all experience and every faculty. This can be done, but then we have to stop using "mind" as the name for the region of experience corresponding to mentation, thinking, memory, etc. There would be nothing outside the mind and it would be the absolute ground of being. This conflicts with language and advice talking about needing to go beyond the mind to develop a more fundamental and truer perspective. Even you talk about stilling the mind (as from outside the mind affecting it's condition), which says that the mind is a sub-category, not a super-category. If awareness is within the mind then awareness has no capacity to influence the quality of the mind. I experience the mind as an object of awareness, which places the faculty of awareness outside of the category of mind.
Hi Topo: I do not share the distinctions you do, not because they do or don't exist, but because my experience is different.. i see that mind can and does focus and direct awareness.. i experience no true fundamental ground of being, as in a single source.. i experience interactive relationships between energy, consciousness, and potential.. with energy being the raw material, consciousness being the builder/creator, and potential being whatever consciousness focuses it awareness on.. mind, is the field upon which the relationships and interactions between energy and consciousness are manifested, that is to say 'made known'.. awareness is a function of mind's perceiving what is happening, not that one pre-exists the other, but that awareness arises mutually with mind, as an attribute of its sensory perception necessity.. i understand no barrier preventing awareness of mind by mind, it is simply 'self-aware'.. it is all a dynamic relationship of information about what is happening, and mind is the common field upon which we/us/Life are 'aware' of our interactive existence.. remove 'mind', and there is no awareness, things happen but no information is 'made known'..

I speak of 'stilling the mind' from the 'mind's' learned understanding of its own limitations.. its awareness of how it prejudices its own function of sensing experiences/information, informs it of the need for self-regulation, another example of the principle of 'self-organization'.. i will deviate from the tone of this discussion to use more organic terminology.. there is One mind, shared by each of us according to our individual abilities to 'be aware' of this relationship.. i saw an effective analogy for mind, there were different small objects arranged in no particular order on the floor, then a large sheet was placed over the objects representing 'mind'.. the objects moved about, always linked by mind and always aware through the 'sheet's' representations of the 'individual objects'.. from time to time objects came in direct contact with each other 'beneath' the mind's representations.. at 'sheet level' (mind), real objects are represented as slightly differing 'unique' lumps moving about always separated by 'mind'.. until they are so close that the 'mind' lifts from between them and direct experience of each other happens..

At 'sheet level' ('mind') it is the topography/contours/structure of the sheet's (mind's) surface covering the objects, that obscures actually directly seeing the objects, and.. that which is not beneath the sheet with the objects (reality), is above the sheet (beyond the mind), and when placed on the floor among the lumps representing real objects, appears to the objects as obstacles in the 'mind'/sheet.. but, the sheet is drawn taut, such that it becomes still and flat, the objects see each other 'as they are' and move about without the sheet draped over their surface, revealing their actual configuration, and.. the 'objects' (i/you/me/we) see the edges of the sheet, and begin to adventure to the other side of the sheet/mind.. still, we move about 'on' the sheet/mind experiencing what is 'beyond', as long as we can maintain the flat still quality of the sheet/mind.. i know this is an abstract analogy, but if you will spend some time with it, i hope it reveals to you some of the understanding that i have found to be consistent with Life's relationships..

Be well..

[SerpentQueen]

Greetings..


Hi Topo: I do not share the distinctions you do, not because they do or don't exist, but because my experience is different.. i see that mind can and does focus and direct awareness.. i experience no true fundamental ground of being, as in a single source.. i experience interactive relationships between energy, consciousness, and potential.. with energy being the raw material, consciousness being the builder/creator, and potential being whatever consciousness focuses it awareness on.. mind, is the field upon which the relationships and interactions between energy and consciousness are manifested, that is to say 'made known'.. awareness is a function of mind's perceiving what is happening, not that one pre-exists the other, but that awareness arises mutually with mind, as an attribute of its sensory perception necessity.. i understand no barrier preventing awareness of mind by mind, it is simply 'self-aware'.. it is all a dynamic relationship of information about what is happening, and mind is the common field upon which we/us/Life are 'aware' of our interactive existence.. remove 'mind', and there is no awareness, things happen but no information is 'made known'..

I speak of 'stilling the mind' from the 'mind's' learned understanding of its own limitations.. its awareness of how it prejudices its own function of sensing experiences/information, informs it of the need for self-regulation, another example of the principle of 'self-organization'.. i will deviate from the tone of this discussion to use more organic terminology.. there is One mind, shared by each of us according to our individual abilities to 'be aware' of this relationship.. i saw an effective analogy for mind, there were different small objects arranged in no particular order on the floor, then a large sheet was placed over the objects representing 'mind'.. the objects moved about, always linked by mind and always aware through the 'sheet's' representations of the 'individual objects'.. from time to time objects came in direct contact with each other 'beneath' the mind's representations.. at 'sheet level' (mind), real objects are represented as slightly differing 'unique' lumps moving about always separated by 'mind'.. until they are so close that the 'mind' lifts from between them and direct experience of each other happens..

At 'sheet level' ('mind') it is the topography/contours/structure of the sheet's (mind's) surface covering the objects, that obscures actually directly seeing the objects, and.. that which is not beneath the sheet with the objects (reality), is above the sheet (beyond the mind), and when placed on the floor among the lumps representing real objects, appears to the objects as obstacles in the 'mind'/sheet.. but, the sheet is drawn taut, such that it becomes still and flat, the objects see each other 'as they are' and move about without the sheet draped over their surface, revealing their actual configuration, and.. the 'objects' (i/you/me/we) see the edges of the sheet, and begin to adventure to the other side of the sheet/mind.. still, we move about 'on' the sheet/mind experiencing what is 'beyond', as long as we can maintain the flat still quality of the sheet/mind.. i know this is an abstract analogy, but if you will spend some time with it, i hope it reveals to you some of the understanding that i have found to be consistent with Life's relationships..

Be well..

I like this analogy, Tzu.

[3dnow]

Science said we are only out of our mind for nanoseconds.

Hi Moke, do you have the reference?

Thanks,

3d

[moke64916]

I saw it on the science channel, and I think you can find it on google or Wikipedia. I personally don't believe the science of it, because I am not my mind. I only use it when necessary and when I don't use it I'm in my body. And when your in your body, your present in the moment. And the brain thinks. When your present you don't think, just feel. You get 'knowings' that are deeper than the mind. Although psychology refers to "mind, body, spirit as conscious, subconscious, and superconscious.". Christains refer to it as the father, son, and the holy ghost.

[moke64916]

Greetings..


Hi Topo: I do not share the distinctions you do, not because they do or don't exist, but because my experience is different.. i see that mind can and does focus and direct awareness.. i experience no true fundamental ground of being, as in a single source.. i experience interactive relationships between energy, consciousness, and potential.. with energy being the raw material, consciousness being the builder/creator, and potential being whatever consciousness focuses it awareness on.. mind, is the field upon which the relationships and interactions between energy and consciousness are manifested, that is to say 'made known'.. awareness is a function of mind's perceiving what is happening, not that one pre-exists the other, but that awareness arises mutually with mind, as an attribute of its sensory perception necessity.. i understand no barrier preventing awareness of mind by mind, it is simply 'self-e'.. it is all a dynamic relationship of information about what is happening, and ind is thcommon field upon which we/us/Life are 'aware' of our interactive existece.. emove 'mind', and there is no awareness, things happen but no information is 'made known'..

I speak of 'stilling the mind' from the 'mind's' learned understanding of its own limitations.. its awareness of how it prejudices its own function of sensing experiences/information, informs it of the need for self-regulation, another example of the principle of 'self-organization'.. i will deviate from the tone of this discussion to use more organic terminology.. there is One mind, shared by each of us according to our individual abilities to 'be aware' of this relationship.. i saw an effective analogy for mind, there were different small objects arranged in no particular order on the floor, then a large sheet was placed over the objects representing 'mind'.. the objects moved about, always linked by mind and always aware through the 'sheet's' representations of the 'individual objects'.. from time to time objects came in direct contact with each other 'beneath' the mind's representations.. at 'sheet level' (mind), real objects are represented as slightly differing 'unique' lumps moving about always separated by 'mind'.. until they are so close that the 'mind' lifts from between them and direct experience of each other happens..

At 'sheet level' ('mind') it is the topography/contours/structure of the sheet's (mind's) surface covering the objects, that obscures actually directly seeing the objects, and.. that which is not beneath the sheet with the objects (reality), is above the sheet (beyond the mind), and when placed on the floor among the lumps representing real objects, appears to the objects as obstacles in the 'mind'/sheet.. but, the sheet is drawn taut, such that it becomes still and flat, the objects see each other 'as they are' and move about without the sheet draped over their surface, revealing their actual configuration, and.. the 'objects' (i/you/me/we) see the edges of the sheet, and begin to adventure to the other side of the sheet/mind.. still, we move about 'on' the sheet/mind experiencing what is 'beyond', as long as we can maintain the flat still quality of the sheet/mind.. i know this is an abstract analogy, but if you will spend some time with it, i hope it reveals to you some of the understanding that i have found to be consistent with Life's relationships..

Be well..
I refer to thought being raw energy, and emotion/feeling being pure energy.

[sound]

I refer to thought being raw energy, and emotion/feeling being pure energy.

Whats the difference between raw and pure moke?

[Topology]

Tzu,

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

This notion of mind that you are presenting is not the standard definition, but I am not unfamiliar with this sheet analogy. But if you will, I would like to modify it slightly. The sheet is mind, and we are knotted up sections of the sheet according to our self identities. Notice a sheet has two sides. On one side of the sheet is the world. On the other side of the sheet is awareness. In someone who is knotted with self identity the awareness does not make it into the world. For the person whose self identity is dissolved, they become an open gate through which awareness pours forth.

I agree with you, the mind directs attention and controls what we are aware of, but I do not agree that the mind is in control of the faculty of awareness itself. The mind is more like the lens and iris in the eye than the retina or whole of the eye. I am able to feel a qualitative difference in people based on how closed or open this appeture is within the mind. We are conduits, bridges through which one side of the sheet interacts with the other, the gateway for Being influencing and being aware of the world. We can become a vehicle for Presence, which has a transmuting quality to it. But first the veil ofnthe mind must be punctured. It is easy to spot someone whose attention is "stuck in their heads" and their awareness is a slave to thought.

[moke64916]

Whats the difference between raw and pure moke?
Pure energy is the fuel for raw energy or thought to manifest. Combine the two then you have a thought manufestation.

[andrew g]

Some more thoughts...

It doesnt seem to me that the idea that humans have the ability to focus or direct awareness is under debate. It seems to me that the debate is about where awareness is primarily 'located' (I cant come up with a better word than that).

The way I see it as that yes its true that awareness is prior to the object of awareness, but its also true that awareness is not separate at all from the object of awareness. Its what Neale Donald Walsch might call, a 'divine dichotomy'. Kind of like some might say that God is 'us' and then also say that God is the creator of 'us'. It makes no sense to the mind because its a contradiction. Nevertheless.....

[moke64916]

With full body awareness, you have full awareness of mind.
You are soul being aware if soul. Your aware and not thinking. You are feeling. When you do use your mind, you go from body to mind. The mind thinks more effectively this way..

[Gem]

Some more thoughts...

It doesnt seem to me that the idea that humans have the ability to focus or direct awareness is under debate. It seems to me that the debate is about where awareness is primarily 'located' (I cant come up with a better word than that).

The way I see it as that yes its true that awareness is prior to the object of awareness, but its also true that awareness is not separate at all from the object of awareness. Its what Neale Donald Walsch might call, a 'divine dichotomy'. Kind of like some might say that God is 'us' and then also say that God is the creator of 'us'. It makes no sense to the mind because its a contradiction. Nevertheless.....

Sure you have to be aware to be aware of an object... hardly a relevation there. Could even call it an 'object of awareness', but to suggest it doesn't exist while you are not aware of it, or to ascertain the true nature of its existence while you are... or even to say what awareness is... is not possible... but this experience of it as it is currently isn't a questionable thing, so never have I been so sure, yet so uncertain.

[sound]

Pure energy is the fuel for raw energy or thought to manifest. Combine the two then you have a thought manufestation.

Thanks for answering moke ... energy is energy is energy for me ... just different expressions ... maybe that is what you are saying ... or not? lol ... either way i appreciate your expression :)

[andrew g]

Sure you have to be aware to be aware of an object... hardly a relevation there. Could even call it an 'object of awareness', but to suggest it doesn't exist while you are not aware of it, or to ascertain the true nature of its existence while you are... or even to say what awareness is... is not possible... but this experience of it as it is currently isn't a questionable thing, so never have I been so sure, yet so uncertain.

If Im interpreting you correctly, I pretty much agree.

Trying to find the right words to ask a question....hmmm....would you say that awareness is found or located just as much in a rock as in a human?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Tzu,

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind

This notion of mind that you are presenting is not the standard definition, but I am not unfamiliar with this sheet analogy. But if you will, I would like to modify it slightly. The sheet is mind, and we are knotted up sections of the sheet according to our self identities. Notice a sheet has two sides. On one side of the sheet is the world. On the other side of the sheet is awareness. In someone who is knotted with self identity the awareness does not make it into the world. For the person whose self identity is dissolved, they become an open gate through which awareness pours forth.

I agree with you, the mind directs attention and controls what we are aware of, but I do not agree that the mind is in control of the faculty of awareness itself. The mind is more like the lens and iris in the eye than the retina or whole of the eye. I am able to feel a qualitative difference in people based on how closed or open this appeture is within the mind. We are conduits, bridges through which one side of the sheet interacts with the other, the gateway for Being influencing and being aware of the world. We can become a vehicle for Presence, which has a transmuting quality to it. But first the veil ofnthe mind must be punctured. It is easy to spot someone whose attention is "stuck in their heads" and their awareness is a slave to thought.
Hi Topo: I'm not certain how you derive my use of the word'mind' as unconventional, but i accept that your understanding.. as for your sheet analogy, the 'unknotted' region of the sheet still leaves the notion of 'awareness' on one side and the 'world' on the other, are you suggesting that by unknotting the sheet a hole is created?.. 'mind', as i experience it, is the interface between which each side in made known to the other.. The lens analogy is one i use occasionally, where mind is the lens, but.. information flows both ways through the lens/mind.. Source, sensing itself through the many lenses/minds of individuality, and informing the many of their oneness through insight, intuition.. all, manifested through the mind's interface, hence the admonishment for 'clarity', for a clean lens, not distorted with dysfunctional beliefs.. then, insight is clear, then 'source' experiences itself clearly, and individuality clearly senses its relationship with Life and 'source'..

I have no understanding of 'awareness' as an existent quality or substance, its meaning is a conceptual description of the capacity of perceiving and sensing the environment of existence.. without 'that' which conceives meaning and perceives its environment, no word, meaning, or perception is present, thus no awareness.. i am inclined toward simplicity, favoring 'Occam's Razor' as a reasonable guide for understanding Life happening..

Be well..

[BlueSky]

Sure you have to be aware to be aware of an object... hardly a relevation there. Could even call it an 'object of awareness', but to suggest it doesn't exist while you are not aware of it, or to ascertain the true nature of its existence while you are... or even to say what awareness is... is not possible... but this experience of it as it is currently isn't a questionable thing, so never have I been so sure, yet so uncertain.

Awareness/God/Allthatis is possible to realize/know. I know.......and I'm sharing that with you.

[SerpentQueen]

With full body awareness, you have full awareness of mind.
You are soul being aware if soul. Your aware and not thinking. You are feeling. When you do use your mind, you go from body to mind. The mind thinks more effectively this way..

Elsewhere you also call feeling "pure energy."

I may be misunderstanding, Moke, and if I am, please point it out.

It's my experience that feelings can be just as big of an illusion/distortion as thoughts. For example, a phantom limb will often still feel pain. For another example, an empathetic person will very often acquire the feelings of another, co-opting their emotional distress as if it was their own. Empathy can be a wonderful quality but it can also be disruptive. Extreme feelings in fact are quite contagious. If in a car with a driver who is angry or frustrated, it takes quite a bit of skill/control to not allow those feelings to be reflected in my own body. What's more, my career is in marketing and I will tell you that the most effective ads are those that appeal to the emotions/feeling, and not one's rational intellect. Advertisements are skillfully manipulating emotions all the time.

So when you say things like, "ground your awareness in the body" I just have to disagree because I know how easy it is for feelings to confuse and distort and create illusions that can be even trickier to see than the illusions created by thoughts.

Just my two cents. Again, if I've misread you, please correct my understanding.

[Topology]

Greetings..


Hi Topo: I'm not certain how you derive my use of the word'mind' as unconventional, but i accept that your understanding..


A lot of people talk about an experience of being outside the mind. From a phenomenological account, meaning the qualities that are actively experienced, when the mind is still, its quality is unexpressed. So there is an experience of the mind being absent or at the very least dormant. In this sense mind is treated as a region within experience, a part of experience and not the whole of experience. I have a feeling that we're using two different senses or definitions for the term Mind, in which case we are not speaking about the same thing.

The other reason that I prefer awareness is that awareness can function as a zero term, while mind cannot. While there is anything to experience, there is awareness, What remains when there is no object to experience? There is the awareness of undifferentiated consciousness, and then there is no experience in dreamless sleep and other events where experience winks out and blips on again. Awareness can remain as a zero term, no quality experienced, just the capacity for experience to arise. The category of Mind has some persistent structure to it that I feel makes it unable to fill the role of a zero term.


as for your sheet analogy, the 'unknotted' region of the sheet still leaves the notion of 'awareness' on one side and the 'world' on the other, are you suggesting that by unknotting the sheet a hole is created?..


Yes, there is no sheet standing between the two sides where the hole is. Using a lake analogy where movement of water is analogous to movement of mind, a still mind becomes translucent, transparent, and non-existent to light. (Where the physical analogy breaks down is at the index of refraction for crossing the boundary. A still mind leaves no barrier or resistance)


'mind', as i experience it, is the interface between which each side in made known to the other.. The lens analogy is one i use occasionally, where mind is the lens, but.. information flows both ways through the lens/mind.. Source, sensing itself through the many lenses/minds of individuality, and informing the many of their oneness through insight, intuition.. all, manifested through the mind's interface, hence the admonishment for 'clarity', for a clean lens, not distorted with dysfunctional beliefs.. then, insight is clear, then 'source' experiences itself clearly, and individuality clearly senses its relationship with Life and 'source'..


And with clarity, non-obstruction within the still mind, comes transparency, translucency, an absence of experiencing movement of the mind.


I have no understanding of 'awareness' as an existent quality or substance, its meaning is a conceptual description of the capacity of perceiving and sensing the environment of existence.. without 'that' which conceives meaning and perceives its environment, no word, meaning, or perception is present, thus no awareness.. i am inclined toward simplicity, favoring 'Occam's Razor' as a reasonable guide for understanding Life happening..

Be well..


you are right, awareness is a zero-term. Mind is not a zero term. A distance requires two points, a start and an end. The length of the distance is measured with one end being at 0. As each quality arises in experience, there is a distance created between the existence of the quality and non-existence of the quality. Because the quality is experienced, i.e. we are aware of it, one of those end points is that which is aware, necessarily a zero term. Calling it anything else, postulating any other qualities as that which is aware would be the violation of Occam's Razor as those qualities are not experienced at the point corresponding to non-existence. Mind is a non-vacuous category, it denotes certain qualities and cannot participate as the zero-term.

[moke64916]

:smile: Love and peace does not lie.


Elsewhere you also call feeling "pure energy."

I may be misunderstanding, Moke, and if I am, please point it out.

It's my experience that feelings can be just as big of an illusion/distortion as thoughts. For example, a phantom limb will often still feel pain. For another example, an empathetic person will very often acquire the feelings of another, co-opting their emotional distress as if it was their own. Empathy can be a wonderful quality but it can also be disruptive. Extreme feelings in fact are quite contagious. If in a car with a driver who is angry or frustrated, it takes quite a bit of skill/control to not allow those feelings to be reflected in my own body. What's more, my career is in marketing and I will tell you that the most effective ads are those that appeal to the emotions/feeling, and not one's rational intellect. Advertisements are skillfully manipulating emotions all the time.

So when you say things like, "ground your awareness in the body" I just have to disagree because I know how easy it is for feelings to confuse and distort and create illusions that can be even trickier to see than the illusions created by thoughts.

Just my two cents. Again, if I've misread you, please correct my understanding.

[hybrid]

Awareness can remain as a zero term, no quality experienced, just the capacity for experience to arise

yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SerpentQueen]

:smile: Love and peace does not lie.

I do understand what you are saying, Moke, I'm only playing devil's advocate to help you refine your posts for others to understand. Because not everyone knows what love feels like. It's fairly common to mistake love, in fact, for lust, obsession, possession etc. Call it the difference between lower case love and Love with a capital L. As for peace, it's the same thing. There is a lower case peace and a Peace.

[moke64916]

I do understand what you are saying, Moke, I'm only playing devil's advocate to help you refine your posts for others to understand. Because not everyone knows what love feels like. It's fairly common to mistake love, in fact, for lust, obsession, possession etc. Call it the difference between lower case love and Love with a capital L. As for peace, it's the same thing. There is a lower case peace and a Peace.
That's only if one allows for complexity to be. With me Being comes with simplicity. The best part is about the love, is that it is never ending feeling! It just deepens and deepens! It's wonderful! Right now I feel like love has just taken over me entirely. Every single one of my chakras, all 7 are warm and tingly. I think that has to do with my personal vibration being high. I'll try to make my posts in a way everyone can relate to. Thanks for the heads up.:smile:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

A lot of people talk about an experience of being outside the mind. From a phenomenological account, meaning the qualities that are actively experienced, when the mind is still, its quality is unexpressed. So there is an experience of the mind being absent or at the very least dormant. In this sense mind is treated as a region within experience, a part of experience and not the whole of experience. I have a feeling that we're using two different senses or definitions for the term Mind, in which case we are not speaking about the same thing.
I have described my understanding of mind.. as the common element/medium through which experience is 'made known', any experience.. the mind can be still and translucent, such that the experience is made known clearly.. so, is the medium through which experience is made known, prior to, or within experience? does it matter?

The other reason that I prefer awareness is that awareness can function as a zero term, while mind cannot. While there is anything to experience, there is awareness, What remains when there is no object to experience? There is the awareness of undifferentiated consciousness, and then there is no experience in dreamless sleep and other events where experience winks out and blips on again. Awareness can remain as a zero term, no quality experienced, just the capacity for experience to arise. The category of Mind has some persistent structure to it that I feel makes it unable to fill the role of a zero term.
I don't follow the logic, here.. it is said that awareness is aware of itself, and so is not a "zero term".. disregarding the logical fallacy of awareness being aware of itself, the application of 'zero term' as a descriptor for awareness seems like an arbitrary application to support a preferred perspective.. i disagree that there is no experience in dreamless sleep, as hypnosis reveals there is.. dreamless sleep is often an issue of recollection. The awareness of undifferentiated consciousness, is aware of consciousness, consciousness is 'self-aware'.. the still and translucent mind is the capacity for structure, structure that 'blips on and off' inspiring the capacity for its awareness to be applied or dormant..

Yes, there is no sheet standing between the two sides where the hole is. Using a lake analogy where movement of water is analogous to movement of mind, a still mind becomes translucent, transparent, and non-existent to light. (Where the physical analogy breaks down is at the index of refraction for crossing the boundary. A still mind leaves no barrier or resistance)
It was not clear, in your sheet analogy, that there was a hole hidden in the knot.. the 'still mind'/lake allows clarity to be 'made known'.. without 'mind', there is no function for clarity or experience to be 'made known'.. crystal clear information that is not processed into the relativity of Life's relationships, has no effect.. the purpose of self-discovery depends on relationships, experiences, and the application of knowledge gained from experiences..

And with clarity, non-obstruction within the still mind, comes transparency, translucency, an absence of experiencing movement of the mind.
Agreed, but not an absence of experience or 'mind' itself, only the mind's movement.. Clarity, allows the actuality of experience to overlay the structure of belief while it is inactive and non-resistant, such that the first response is always relative to the actuality of what is, but the active mind quickly invokes the structure of belief and preference..


you are right, awareness is a zero-term. Mind is not a zero term. A distance requires two points, a start and an end. The length of the distance is measured with one end being at 0. As each quality arises in experience, there is a distance created between the existence of the quality and non-existence of the quality. Because the quality is experienced, i.e. we are aware of it, one of those end points is that which is aware, necessarily a zero term. Calling it anything else, postulating any other qualities as that which is aware would be the violation of Occam's Razor as those qualities are not experienced at the point corresponding to non-existence. Mind is a non-vacuous category, it denotes certain qualities and cannot participate as the zero-term.
I cannot agree to an arbitrary scale where 'awareness' is is a "zero term".. i can agree that both mind and awareness are capable of pure clarity, what you seem to referring to as a "zero term".. again, invoking Occam's Razor as cause for eliminating 'mind' from your definition of "zero term", seems arbitrary.. mind is a magnificent interface, with its thinking process suspended it is as transparent as the the "zero term".. awareness is no more than the mind's ability to sense its environment, inferring a mutually arising relationship with no superior or dominate characteristic, as each serves the other in some capacity..

Be well..

[moke64916]

The awareness of awareness in my experience has been being(soul) being aware of itself. Sure there is awareness being aware of itself, but I'm wondering people define by that word. There is awareness of awareness and yet still not seeing self as self. It's been more like self being aware of self that he is his self reflexting on itself. The mind is always quiet when your outside of mind. Your not thinking, your aware and your feeling either deep peace, joy, or love. The mind is a tool and a powerful one when used in the correct way. Right now the human species is unconscious that their thoughts manifest in their daily realities. It's all an 'undoing.' when it boils down to it, or at least that's how I've experienced it.

[Gem]

Awareness/God/Allthatis is possible to realize/know. I know.......and I'm sharing that with you.

What's so funny is, awareness is just this awareness, and people are like it's God or something... and really you're not sharing. It's just a way of presenting yourself as 'knowing'.

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind, but lets not pretend we're sharing something meaningful, it isn't, it's jibber jabber... and I had no idea what you meant anyway.

[Gem]

If Im interpreting you correctly, I pretty much agree.

Trying to find the right words to ask a question....hmmm....would you say that awareness is found or located just as much in a rock as in a human?

That's too complex for me.

[Xan]

oops....


Xan

[Enlightener]

If Im interpreting you correctly, I pretty much agree.

Trying to find the right words to ask a question....hmmm....would you say that awareness is found or located just as much in a rock as in a human?



Yes, I would say. It surrounds it, and flows through it. The only difference is that the level of vibration of awareness in a rock is much lower than a human.

Blessings

[sound]

Maybe the atoms which make up the rock are aware of their ability to 'be' a rock ... rocks dont need to read and write and make love and stuff ... and they rely on external calamity to create change ... maybe their awareness is rock solid? ...

[SerpentQueen]

Yes, I would say. It surrounds it, and flows through it. The only difference is that the level of vibration of awareness in a rock is much lower than a human.

Blessings

Hmm. Are you sure? Seems to me the rocks I know suck up the warmth of the sun and then hold it far longer than we humans. Is that a lower vibration or is it a higher one? Also rocks are far more patient than us humans.

I've said before, if you walk in bare feet you can hear the rocks on the path saying "ouch" ... I'd venture to say humans have much lower vibration than rocks. Low enough we don't normally hear the rocks say ouch. We tune out the ouch. We have to tune it out, or we'd not walk anywhere at all!

[SerpentQueen]

Actually maybe you can map the increase of human vibration nice and neatly against the increase of amount of sophisticated padding systems in sneakers since the 70s... lol

[Enlightener]

Hmm. Are you sure? Seems to me the rocks I know suck up the warmth of the sun and then hold it far longer than we humans. Is that a lower vibration or is it a higher one? Also rocks are far more patient than us humans.

I've said before, if you walk in bare feet you can hear the rocks on the path saying "ouch" ... I'd venture to say humans have much lower vibration than rocks. Low enough we don't normally hear the rocks say ouch. We tune out the ouch. We have to tune it out, or we'd not walk anywhere at all!


Rocks are of a denser awareness, than us humans. We can contain more light, and of a higher calibre than rocks.

Saying that, yes rocks mostly have a broader awareness, whereas ours is more on the vertical scale, such is the nature of our construct and the difference between theirs

[sound]

EL how do you know that man? lol

[SerpentQueen]

Rocks are of a denser awareness, than us humans. We can contain more light, and of a higher calibre than rocks.

Can you see how that makes no sense? Denser because they may weigh heavier, yes, but as I said, they suck up way more light than we do, and hold it in the form of warmth. Just ask the snakes and other creeping critters that bask in their warmth for hours after the sun goes down.

And mother Gaia -- you just cannot tell me she is of "denser" awareness .. nope.

Maybe we need better language (Topology, where are you?).

*** loved my pet rock dearly ***

[Gem]

I went out and asked a rock, no reply.

[Topology]

Can you see how that makes no sense? Denser because they may weigh heavier, yes, but as I said, they suck up way more light than we do, and hold it in the form of warmth. Just ask the snakes and other creeping critters that bask in their warmth for hours after the sun goes down.

And mother Gaia -- you just cannot tell me she is of "denser" awareness .. nope.

Maybe we need better language (Topology, where are you?).

*** loved my pet rock dearly ***


Topology lost his keys on campus today and has had very little sleep going on to his overnight shift.

Perhaps we could be asking each other questions?

EL, what are you experiencing to make the description of rocks that you do? Is denser or lower vibration any kind of devaluation, or just a difference in felt quality? What kind of light are we talking about? Physical light, consciousness light? What size rocks are we talking about? What kind of mineral composition, because this greatly influences the tone and vibration I feel around rocks.

I have no clue as to what a rock experiences, the memory it stores (apart from physical scarring), or how much it is aware of me apart from the soles of my shoes through stepping on it or the vibration of my walking by coming to it through the surrounding soil.

[SerpentQueen]

I went out and asked a rock, no reply.

Really? I hear the rocks. I step on them, they say "ouch!" and I say "so sorrryyy" and they say, "that's alright... at least you noticed we said ouch."

It's the little ones that say ouch. The big ones (bigger than my foot) just kind of sigh in a resigned manner.

Yes, my imagination may be overactive. I didn't notice the rocks talking until a good friend pointed it out to me. We were walking on this path that was supposed to be all "zen" and it was crippling me at every step. And my friend said, "It's not supposed to be like that... it's supposed to be soothing!" And I was distressed thinking there was something terribly wrong with me... then I realized it was because the rocks didn't like me stepping on them.

Okay I re-read and I sound insane but oh well!! LOL. That first happened about 8 years ago and I still have frequent conversations with the rocks on the ground.

[Gem]

Really? I hear the rocks. I step on them, they say "ouch!" and I say "so sorrryyy" and they say, "that's alright... at least you noticed we said ouch."

It's the little ones that say ouch. The big ones (bigger than my foot) just kind of sigh in a resigned manner.

Yes, my imagination may be overactive. I didn't notice the rocks talking until a good friend pointed it out to me. We were walking on this path that was supposed to be all "zen" and it was crippling me at every step. And my friend said, "It's not supposed to be like that... it's supposed to be soothing!" And I was distressed thinking there was something terribly wrong with me... then I realized it was because the rocks didn't like me stepping on them.

Okay I re-read and I sound insane but oh well!! LOL. That first happened about 8 years ago and I still have frequent conversations with the rocks on the ground.

Maybe ask one to clear up this little conundrum us humans are having here.

[arive nan]

I would describe rocks as passive. They take in whatever energy happens to come their way, without actively seeking more energy or particular kinds of energy or trying to repel any of it. And whatever happens to the energy that touches them or goes through them happens due to the physical properties of the rock. It is nothing they 'do' with intent. Unlike living biological organisms, a rock does not react in significantly different ways when a conscious being focuses attention on the rock. That energy is of equal value to it as the energy that happens to come into contact with it from sources that are not focusing attention on the rock. I bring this up because when going into plants I noticed that they do have a reaction when someone focuses the attention of their thoughts on them. It matters to plants if something is focusing attention specifically on it. This does not matter to a rock, in my experiments with them.

I have these impressions because of the times that I sort of went remote viewing/astral projecting or whatever to call it inside the rock. I moved my conscious awareness inside the rock to experience things from its POV and did my best to focus attention on what the rock itself experiences without being influenced or biased by my own feelings or assumptions. There's no way to get solid evidence of any of my observations during these trips inside inanimate objects.

[hybrid]

There's no way to get solid evidence of any of my observations during these trips inside inanimate objects.

maybe consciousness needs nervous systems to have experience, which in the case of rocks, none. try it on plants, you'll see,

[A peaceful mind.]

You were being. It doesn't work as awareness manifesting into more awareness. He is wrong. What you felt was your inner stillness. 1st Step: become aware of your thoughts. Don't 'be' your thoughts. Be the observer of the thoughts. Don't judge them. Just observe silently as the observer. There is a wealth of intelligence beyond thought. It brings you present in the moment

2nd step: observe your bodies emotions the same way you observe your thoughts. Don't 'Be' your emotions. Be the observer

With this you are fully aware and peaceful. You have now entered the realm of no-mind. You are aware and fully present. This peace does not have an end to it. It gets deeper and deeper. Then you feel the joy of being.

Next you have already mastered the realm of being. Then start observing your reactions. Practice 'Being' around others. When you master all three, you will then be a master. Trust me. I've been through all of this. These are the steps into becoming a master.

Peace,

Moke

Well and simply said Moke :O)

[Enlightener]

Can you see how that makes no sense? Denser because they may weigh heavier, yes, but as I said, they suck up way more light than we do, and hold it in the form of warmth. Just ask the snakes and other creeping critters that bask in their warmth for hours after the sun goes down.

And mother Gaia -- you just cannot tell me she is of "denser" awareness .. nope.

Maybe we need better language (Topology, where are you?).

*** loved my pet rock dearly ***


Yes, they are denser, thus being able to hold sunlight as they do. We are lighter, and thus energy passes through us at a higher rate.

Maybe we need a translator lol

Mother Earth is dense, it is the nature of her body, and she is also more than a human, more powerful, more loving, more everything. She is at a higher state of awareness.

I'll try and think of another word for 'dense'...

[Enlightener]

EL how do you know that man? lol


Well, duuude, I know it from simple insight :D

[sound]

Well, duuude, I know it from simple insight :D
lol fair enough bro :D

[Enlightener]

Topology lost his keys on campus today and has had very little sleep going on to his overnight shift.

Perhaps we could be asking each other questions?

EL, what are you experiencing to make the description of rocks that you do? Is denser or lower vibration any kind of devaluation, or just a difference in felt quality? What kind of light are we talking about? Physical light, consciousness light? What size rocks are we talking about? What kind of mineral composition, because this greatly influences the tone and vibration I feel around rocks.

I have no clue as to what a rock experiences, the memory it stores (apart from physical scarring), or how much it is aware of me apart from the soles of my shoes through stepping on it or the vibration of my walking by coming to it through the surrounding soil.

Hi Tops :)

It is the feeling I get. No devaluation at all, all is Life, all is God. Consciousness light. I'm feeling into those small rocks, about the size of your hand. I'm sure it would be a different story with each size of rock that we examine. Yes, totally agree about the mineral composition too. Though I am speaking generally..

[Enlightener]

Maybe ask one to clear up this little conundrum us humans are having here.


That's really not a bad idea Gem. I'll try and find a rock tomorrow to have a conversation with (as I am walking the trail to the lighthouse on the beach)

[Enlightener]

I would describe rocks as passive. They take in whatever energy happens to come their way, without actively seeking more energy or particular kinds of energy or trying to repel any of it. And whatever happens to the energy that touches them or goes through them happens due to the physical properties of the rock. It is nothing they 'do' with intent. Unlike living biological organisms, a rock does not react in significantly different ways when a conscious being focuses attention on the rock. That energy is of equal value to it as the energy that happens to come into contact with it from sources that are not focusing attention on the rock. I bring this up because when going into plants I noticed that they do have a reaction when someone focuses the attention of their thoughts on them. It matters to plants if something is focusing attention specifically on it. This does not matter to a rock, in my experiments with them.

I have these impressions because of the times that I sort of went remote viewing/astral projecting or whatever to call it inside the rock. I moved my conscious awareness inside the rock to experience things from its POV and did my best to focus attention on what the rock itself experiences without being influenced or biased by my own feelings or assumptions. There's no way to get solid evidence of any of my observations during these trips inside inanimate objects.

Well said, nan. This is what I was getting at with the denseness thing, a plant is less dense than a rock, it is affected by light at a higher rate than a rock, and humans are at a higher rate than a rock as well.

[Gem]

That's really not a bad idea Gem. I'll try and find a rock tomorrow to have a conversation with (as I am walking the trail to the lighthouse on the beach)

Yes, talk to the rocks, they're very old and wise.

PS... walking is wonderful.

[andrew g]

Yes, I would say. It surrounds it, and flows through it. The only difference is that the level of vibration of awareness in a rock is much lower than a human.

Blessings

Yes, I agree.

Ive just seen the conversation about vibration and Im not sure which I would say is higher/lower so I will pass on that.

[Gem]

Yes, I agree.

Ive just seen the conversation about vibration and Im not sure which I would say is higher/lower so I will pass on that.

A very hot rock vibrates faster than a cold one.

[sound]

Rocks also gather together to form a mountain ... and as far as i know they dont jostle for the best position ...

[arive nan]

maybe consciousness needs nervous systems to have experience, which in the case of rocks, none. try it on plants, you'll see,

I have tried it with plants. Both the rock and the plant have subjective POVs as far as I can tell in my experiments. There is something that it is like to be a rock, in other words. The subjective experience of being a rock is different from that of being a plant. And being a rock is subjectively different from being a piece of paper.

[arive nan]

Well said, nan. This is what I was getting at with the denseness thing, a plant is less dense than a rock, it is affected by light at a higher rate than a rock, and humans are at a higher rate than a rock as well.

I don't see this as due to any difference in denseness. Awareness is different for different POVs because different POVs are aware of different things and they receive or gather information in different ways. It doesn't make one awareness higher or lower than another. They are just different due to being aware of different things in different ways. In a way, the states of mind that people aim to have by doing certain meditations to quiet the mind and experience choiceless awareness is like trying to have an awareness that is more similar to a rock's. When people achieve this, some consider it to be an accomplishment of spiritual advancement and some say that the more a person can do this the better. But the rocks are in a state like that all the time. They can't be any other way.

[Topology]

I have described my understanding of mind.. as the common element/medium through which experience is 'made known', any experience.. the mind can be still and translucent, such that the experience is made known clearly.. so, is the medium through which experience is made known, prior to, or within experience? does it matter?


Does it matter? Not really. I know neither "why" nor "how" consciousness came to be. And when working with a layer of abstraction, why and how doesn't matter unless the abstraction is needing repair. I couldn't fix my car if my life depended on it, but I know how to use the car to get around. In this regard I find the zero-point of awareness, what you're referring to as a still mind, to be a very useful landmark for navigating the internal landscape.


I don't follow the logic, here.. it is said that awareness is aware of itself, and so is not a "zero term".. disregarding the logical fallacy of awareness being aware of itself, the application of 'zero term' as a descriptor for awareness seems like an arbitrary application to support a preferred perspective.. i disagree that there is no experience in dreamless sleep, as hypnosis reveals there is.. dreamless sleep is often an issue of recollection. The awareness of undifferentiated consciousness, is aware of consciousness, consciousness is 'self-aware'.. the still and translucent mind is the capacity for structure, structure that 'blips on and off' inspiring the capacity for its awareness to be applied or dormant..


Anything being aware of itself is a logical fallacy, and yet something has to be self-aware, call it whatever you want. I call it awareness. So do many people. Many people also call it something different, mind, consciousness. That's why we have to learn each other's languaging to communicate effectively with each other.

Logic is limited as logic requires the choosing of axioms and terms which is prior to the application of logic.

You lost me with the part in bold. what do you mean by applied or dormant, what is blipping on and off? What is aware of the blipping?

hypnosis also reveals non-existent child abuses... (http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/abuse/a/reliability.htm) I'm not prepared to take the output of hypnosis as something relevant beyond tuning into subconscious white-noise in the individual or mass-psyche.


Agreed, but not an absence of experience or 'mind' itself, only the mind's movement.. Clarity, allows the actuality of experience to overlay the structure of belief while it is inactive and non-resistant, such that the first response is always relative to the actuality of what is, but the active mind quickly invokes the structure of belief and preference..


I can only speak to how things appear or seem to me. "I" seem to be looking through the mind into the world and other subjective phenomena within consciousness. The dense and heavy mind feels like an intermediary, a resistance. A foggy or groggy mind is itself muddy, however the experience of fogginess is quite clear and distinct. A clear and translucent mind does not interfere with the clarity of the awareness that is distinctly aware of the fogginess of the mind. What I am saying is that the clarity within the mind has to be judged and measured from a point which functions as an absolute frame of reference for the quality of clarity. I call that frame of reference Awareness, the Eye, which is always clear and it is the mind which is muddy.

If there is no awareness outside of the mind, then how does the mind discern between clarity and lack of clarity? How does the mind know itself? I find the content of mind, i.e. mind-stuff, to be quite inert and unconsciousness, unaware.




I cannot agree to an arbitrary scale where 'awareness' is is a "zero term".. i can agree that both mind and awareness are capable of pure clarity, what you seem to referring to as a "zero term".. again, invoking Occam's Razor as cause for eliminating 'mind' from your definition of "zero term", seems arbitrary.. mind is a magnificent interface, with its thinking process suspended it is as transparent as the the "zero term".. awareness is no more than the mind's ability to sense its environment, inferring a mutually arising relationship with no superior or dominate characteristic, as each serves the other in some capacity..

Be well..

As for zero points, I think what Arive Nan has to say about it in this thread (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21899) is quite profound. Zero is not nothing, merely the balance point between 1 and -1. 0 = 1 + -1. 0 = infinity + -infinity. Zero is potential for creation. Zero surrounds everything. 5 = 0 + 5 + 0; 5 = 5 +1 -1. Zero is a blank page, an empty stage, capacity to be filled.


I agree with the bolded that the mind has no ability to sense anything except through awareness. If there is mind that exists outside of awareness, we are unaware of it and by occam's razor it must be chopped from our ontology. In order for anything to survive occam's razor, we must be aware of its existence, it must have quality in our experience. It is awareness, not the mind, which enables Occam's Razor to exist as a tool and this is why I place awareness as superior, prior to the mind. The mind can only operated on the product of awareness.

I am intentionally placing the faculty of awareness outside the mind because every other faculty within the mind is dependent on awareness. I could do as you do and place awareness within the mind, But then the question arises of what exists outside of awareness but within the mind? And I have no answer, no idea, no understanding, no knowledge, no experience of it because if it does exist, I am unaware of it, *chop* there goes Occam's Razor, and everything within mind is also within awareness.

[Topology]

Rocks also gather together to form a mountain ... and as far as i know they dont jostle for the best position ...

Earthquakes, land-slides, rocks settling in riverbeds, "move over guys, I want that spot." :D

[sound]

Earthquakes, land-slides, rocks settling in riverbeds, "move over guys, I want that spot." :D
There seems to be a certain cooperation happening though ... maybe you are projecting a little of your human-ness onto the rock there Top? lol ... remind me never to get into a landslide with you :D

[Topology]

There seems to be a certain cooperation happening though ... maybe you are projecting a little of your human-ness onto the rock there Top? lol ... remind me never to get into a landslide with you :D


yeah, there's as much cooperation in a landslide as there is with people rushing for a black-friday sale.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/26/black-friday-video-stampede-violence-target-buffalo_n_788626.html

[andrew g]

Ive sometimes thought about 'awareness' in the last year and I see that the dictionary presents it as more of an attribute, but I just dont really experience it as an attribute which makes it hard for me to present the word in that way. I experience it as more of a....quality. I experience it as a 'field', not a field with grass and mud, more of a force-field, a field of aliveness. It seems to me that awareness is what makes life alive and it connects all things. It is the connection itself.

So then I ask myself what I mean when I say...'I am aware of ----', and I think what I mean is that something is part of my individual consciousness as a whole i.e. something is part of my realm of experience. If I was to say 'I am conscious of ----', what I mean is that something is high in my mind right now.

I also notice that there is a marked experiential difference for me between becoming aware of awareness and becoming conscious of consciousness. The experience of becoming aware of awareness is more of a 'feeling' type experience, and becoming conscious of consciousness is more of a 'mind' type experience.

Its a tricky business.

[sound]

yeah, there's as much cooperation in a landslide as there is with people rushing for a black-friday sale.

ok well maybe cooperation isn't the best word ... dont see too many rocks resisting though ...

[Gem]

Ive sometimes thought about 'awareness' in the last year and I see that the dictionary presents it as more of an attribute, but I just dont really experience it as an attribute which makes it hard for me to present the word in that way. I experience it as more of a....quality. I experience it as a 'field', not a field with grass and mud, more of a force-field, a field of aliveness. It seems to me that awareness is what makes life alive and it connects all things. It is the connection itself.

So then I ask myself what I mean when I say...'I am aware of ----', and I think what I mean is that something is part of my individual consciousness as a whole i.e. something is part of my realm of experience. If I was to say 'I am conscious of ----', what I mean is that something is high in my mind right now.

I also notice that there is a marked experiential difference for me between becoming aware of awareness and becoming conscious of consciousness. The experience of becoming aware of awareness is more of a 'feeling' type experience, and becoming conscious of consciousness is more of a 'mind' type experience.

Its a tricky business.

To me, awareness is the faculty which enables cognition... experience is entirely reliant on it.

Everyone knows they are aware, so there's nothing woo woo going on here, but knowing self is reliant on awareness. Anyone would have no doubt whatsoever that they are aware, so in the 'know yourself' sense, one best look into where awareness arizes from.

[andrew g]

To me, awareness is the faculty which enables cognition... experience is entirely reliant on it.

Everyone knows they are aware, so there's nothing woo woo going on here, but knowing self is reliant on awareness. Anyone would have no doubt whatsoever that they are aware, so in the 'know yourself' sense, one best look into where awareness arizes from.


I dont really get how you see it. I think I get how you see it and then I am thrown hehe. I notice you didnt answer before and I didnt really understand why, but would you say there is awareness in a rock? If that isnt a question that you feel you can answer, can you explain why?

[moke64916]

I'm aware me(soul,being) being aware that I am aware of being.

[BlueSky]

To me, awareness is the faculty which enables cognition... experience is entirely reliant on it.

Everyone knows they are aware, so there's nothing woo woo going on here, but knowing self is reliant on awareness. Anyone would have no doubt whatsoever that they are aware, so in the 'know yourself' sense, one best look into where awareness arizes from.

What looks like to you as knowing you are aware is really that you are awareness.
There is a difference.
Seeing this/knowing this..... happens.

[Gem]

I dont really get how you see it. I think I get how you see it and then I am thrown hehe. I notice you didnt answer before and I didnt really understand why, but would you say there is awareness in a rock? If that isnt a question that you feel you can answer, can you explain why?

It's silly. Is there awareness in a rock?

I kinda like what arive nan said.

[andrew g]

It's silly. Is there awareness in a rock?

I kinda like what arive nan said.

I did too. I dont want to go back and read it again, but didnt she say that she thought there was?

Okay.....I will go back and read it again!

[Gem]

What looks like to you as knowing you are aware is really that you are awareness.
There is a difference.
Seeing this/knowing this..... happens.

Knowing you are awareness... a very popuar sentiment... Not one I agree with. Maybe you don't really know and hence like to evoke the impression that you do.

[Gem]

I did too. I dont want to go back and read it again, but didnt she say that she thought there was?

Okay.....I will go back and read it again!

Andrew, I really think it's quite an inane subject, I don't care in the least if awareness is or isn't in a rock. Even saying this makes me giggle. tee hee.

[BlueSky]

Knowing you are awareness... a very popuar sentiment... Not one I agree with. Maybe you don't really know and hence like to evoke the impression that you do.

I don't expect an interest from you in what I know. I don't expect you to not imagine that I have some agenda in expressing it... but still it seems good to express this thing that happened...................It is the only thing to know.
So express I will.................blessings

[andrew g]

okay, she didnt say it haha. I liked it again though.

To me a difference between a rock and a human is one of ''self'' awareness, not one of awareness.

[BlueSky]

For what it's worth........I'll share some more.
What I saw/realized was awareness and creation. Creation looked like a TV show with no sound. It was empty but filled with creation.
What I realized later is that thru this body/mind, awareness fills creation, the rock, the trees, with itself. It is only thru this body/mind that the rock becomes not empty.
Everything happens in awareness.

[Gem]

I don't expect an interest from you in what I know. I don't expect you to not imagine that I have some agenda in expressing it... but still it seems good to express this thing that happened...................It is the only thing to know.

It's not important to demonstrate knowing... it has no purpose... there's no answer which I can convey... I can't explain it...

[hybrid]

What looks like to you as knowing you are aware is really that you are awareness.
There is a difference.
Seeing this/knowing this..... happens.

the difference is that in "you are aware", the you is someone particular, whereas in the "you are awareness", the you is nothing in particular a self but only a figure of speech.

is this right? if so what self is realized in this realization ?

[BlueSky]

the difference is that in "you are aware"m the you is someone particular, whereas in the "you are awareness", the you is nothing particularly a self but only a figure of speech.

is this right? if so what self is realized in this happening?

I'm not quite sure what you are asking but I'll share this:
I realized years ago that there is nothing substantial about the guy in the mirror.
I realized that had I had different parents, been born in China or sent off to war, that I'd be someone else so to speak.
I didn't realize (although I thought I did at one time) that I was life itself.
I didn't realize that life itself is awareness filling creation with itself.
I didn't realize this awareness is all that is and everything happens within it.
There is a uniqueness to this awareness filling creation thru this body/mind.
That is all I know..........I didn't realize anything can be known................I'm now learning how to "be" or at least that is what is happening. :smile:

[hybrid]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking but I'll share this:
I realized years ago that there is nothing substantial about the guy in the mirror.
I realized that had I had different parents, been born in China or sent off to war, that I'd be someone else so to speak.
I didn't realize (although I thought I did at one time) that I was life itself.
I didn't realize that life itself is awareness filling creation with itself.
I didn't realize this awareness is all that is and everything happens within it.
There is a uniqueness to this awareness filling creation thru this body/mind.
That is all I know..........I didn't realize anything can be known................I'm now learning how to "be" or at least that is what is happening. :smile:
then why did you say this?


Realization is realizing what the self is.

[BlueSky]

then why did you say this? Realization is realizing what the self is.

[/i]

The self, whether you believe it is "you" or "Life" wakes up to realize that it is awareness and before waking up, it still was awareness, only it was awareness unaware.
Awareness..awares and awareness.....unawares. It's all happening in awareness. Outside of awareness all is empty.
Now "life"/"me" are awake and awareness is aware thru this body/mind filling creation with itself. Giving it life so to speak.
Awareness is God. To know it is to know God and all I can say is Amazing and wow! Beyond words!

[moke64916]

I would classify unawareness as unconscious behavior. The blind man. A blind man cannot change for that he knows not what he does. It is when he sees is when the magic begins.

[BlueSky]

I would classify unawareness as unconscious behavior. The blind man. A blind man cannot change for that he knows not what he does. It is when he sees is when the magic begins.

What I've seen is that it is simply the other side of awareness. The difference is that no one is at fault so to speak. Being at fault happens but noone is really at fault.
I'm reminded of something in the bible where God says he has the right to harden the heart of Pharoah in regards to Moses (something like that.......lol)
Suddening that verse makes some sense..........:smile:

[arive nan]

didnt she say that she thought there was?

I am reluctant to say it in those words at this point. One definition of consciousness is simply having qualia, as in having subjective experience or a subjective POV so that there is something that it is like to be the object or being in question. So as far as I can tell, although I can't be entirely certain since my own subjective POV is involved, rocks and other inanimate objects have consciousness. And it's not just the consciousness of everything. There is a consciousness of the individual object defined by its physical parameters.

If it has awareness, it would be different from how humans normally experience awareness because we are aware of such different things in such different ways. For the rock, when energy/information passes through it or bounces off of it, this has qualia for it. It's going to be very different from how humans experience that passage of various kinds of information through them.

I have described what the rock experiences in terms of awareness in my own notes, but perhaps qualia is not the same thing as awareness. Or maybe it is. It depends on what awareness really is, which I'm not sure of yet. But, hypothetically, finding out what it is like to be a rock, or a plant, or a piece of paper could bring me closer to an answer. Which is why I do care about whether or not the rocks have awareness. If they have awareness, I could go into them more and explore it and find out how it compares to my own awarenesses and find out more about what awareness is. If they don't have awareness, I could explore that too and find out what the difference is between having awareness and not having any awareness at all.

[BlueSky]

In Shamanic journeys, I have become the awareness of boulders and trees at times.
I know to some that happened only in my mind and I would tend to agree except the nature of these journeys were always proven to be so much more than my imagination.
So for those interested and are open to it, it may very well be possible to experience such awarenesses.
Not sure what it all means but it was very real and exciting as I remember.
James

[hybrid]

The self, whether you believe it is "you" or "Life" wakes up to realize that it is awareness and before waking up, it still was awareness, only it was awareness unaware.
like if sugar suddenly becomes aware it's first tastes is its sweetness?

Awareness..awares and awareness.....unawares. It's all happening in awareness. Outside of awareness all is empty.
it's all tastes empty because all knowledge ends in awareness.

Now "life"/"me" are awake and awareness is aware thru this body/mind filling creation with itself. Giving it life so to speak.
i guess an awake awareness let us know we are alive.

Awareness is God. To know it is to know God and all I can say is Amazing and wow! Beyond words!
to those that don't believed god, what do you think awareness would be if they would have the same experience as you? thanks

[moke64916]

There is more to it than just being aware of awareness. Soul aware of soul. Then once enlightenment you are always with full awareness. But the best part of spirituality so far in my journey now that I am my being fully aware of itself, I can now instantly manifest any feeling I choose to just by saying the word. It's total freedom. Freedom to choose to sleep on command, and be consciously dreaming and do whatever you choose to in your dream. It all happens when mind, body, soul integrate as one.

[BlueSky]

like if sugar suddenly becomes aware it's first tastes is its sweetness?


it's all tastes empty because all knowledge ends in awareness.


i guess an awake awareness let us know we are alive.


to those that don't believed god, what do you think awareness would be if they would have the same experience as you? thanks

When I say God, I don't mean a him and a me. I mean AllThatIs. When Life becomes aware of itself, it realized that apart from awareness, there is no life. All happens in awareness and in essence nothing happens. Almost like a dream but the thing is all there is is the dream to be aware of so it is as real as anything could be. Real.... meaning there is no opposite. It's hard to explain. For a bit all there was was awareness and all that was seen was creation empty. I was this awareness in this state. It was not a sense of oneness, it was a sense of only-ness/all-ness. Life was empty. There I felt what might be called bliss. Specifically, I remember all fear being gone. All limitations ceased there. I sensed that life is the outer side of awareness. Awareness would seem to have to have a side that is unaware in order to be awareness. I seemed to know that then. Thats why when I hear people finding fault in others, it totally feels wrong.
God is playing with God.....Life aware of itself knows that. God is awareness aware and/or unaware of itself. Creation is filled with itself and this is what this is. If there is a "why" such as so that it can become aware of itself, I didn't see that. I simply saw this is what it does, so to speak.
It awares and in order to aware it unawares.
If there is something beyond awareness.........I didn't realize it. It could be though.
And yes.... all knowing ends in awareness..............well said.

[BlueSky]

There is more to it than just being aware of awareness. Soul aware of soul. Then once enlightenment you are always with full awareness. But the best part of spirituality so far in my journey now that I am my being fully aware of itself, I can now instantly manifest any feeling I choose to just by saying the word. It's total freedom. Freedom to choose to sleep on command, and be consciously dreaming and do whatever you choose to in your dream. It all happens when mind, body, soul integrate as one.

I did not wake up and become aware of awareness Moke. I realized life is awareness aware and or unaware.
There is no one to become aware of awareness. There is only life realizing it is awareness. Waking up. Nothing is happening and yet as Paul has said...nothing IS happening.
Soul, ego, enlightenment are all happening in unawareness. Life wakes up and sees this. Life sees it is only happening in awareness.
My sense was when this body dies, this unique expression of awareness thru this body and mind end or better said goes back to emptiness/bliss/peace apart from life. Expands might be a better word.
How or if it expands thru this body/mind now remains to be seen but as hybrid said all knowledge ends in awareness. Being is all that is left whatever that may be.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

When I say God, I don't mean a him and a me. I mean AllThatIs. When Life becomes aware of itself, it realized that apart from awareness, there is no life. All happens in awareness and in essence nothing happens. Almost like a dream but the thing is all there is is the dream to be aware of so it is as real as anything could be. Real meaning there is no opposite. It's hard to explain. for a bit all there was was awareness and all that was seen was creation empty. There I felt what might be called bliss. Specifically, I remember all fear being gone. All limitations ceased there. I sensed that life is the outer side of awareness. Awareness would seem to have to have a side that is unaware in order to be awareness.
If there is something beyond awareness.........I didn't realize it. It could be though.
I do not understand the use of 'awareness' as a description for what is 'made known in the mind'.. 'awareness', as what it is, is the ability of acquire information.. though, there seems to be a trendy inclination to redefine awareness as a substitute for very adequate descriptions already used and understood.. in this way, people can claim 'repackaged' common understandings as 'spiritual', while actually adding layers of confusion and illusion..

I would challenge those who favor redefining 'awareness' from the common understanding as taken from Wikipedia: "Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.".. I would challenge those people to find the common usages for instances where they would use the word awareness other than the citation i have provided.. or, challenge me to translate any expression in which you use 'awareness' other than as cited in Wikipedia, challenge me to find a more commonly acceptable term or phrase.. It is my sincere belief that we can better express the depth and usefulness of our understandings and experiences by avoiding a reliance on an ambiguous 'catch-all' term, language is a sophisticated and richly nuanced tool, and.. it seems unjustifiable to not challenge ourselves to use it to more accurately express ourselves..

James says, "It's hard to explain.", and it is, if you're trying to use a word like 'awareness' where it doesn't mean what is trying to be communicated.. as has been pointed-out previously, that language evolves, yes it does.. but, that is not cause to intentionally skew meanings, to force words and phrases to fit individual preferences, disregarding a framework for common understanding.. so, i've put up a challenge, is anyone up to it?

Be well..

[Gem]

Greetings..


I do not understand the use of 'awareness' as a description for what is 'made known in the mind'.. 'awareness', as what it is, is the ability of acquire information.. though, there seems to be a trendy inclination to redefine awareness as a substitute for very adequate descriptions already used and understood.. in this way, people can claim 'repackaged' common understandings as 'spiritual', while actually adding layers of confusion and illusion..

(applause)

I would challenge those who favor redefining 'awareness' from the common understanding as taken from Wikipedia: "Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.".. I would challenge those people to find the common usages for instances where they would use the word awareness other than the citation i have provided.. or, challenge me to translate any expression in which you use 'awareness' other than as cited in Wikipedia, challenge me to find a more commonly acceptable term or phrase.. It is my sincere belief that we can better express the depth and usefulness of our understandings and experiences by avoiding a reliance on an ambiguous 'catch-all' term, language is a sophisticated and richly nuanced tool, and.. it seems unjustifiable to not challenge ourselves to use it to more accurately express ourselves..

James says, "It's hard to explain.", and it is, if you're trying to use a word like 'awareness' where it doesn't mean what is trying to be communicated.. as has been pointed-out previously, that language evolves, yes it does.. but, that is not cause to intentionally skew meanings, to force words and phrases to fit individual preferences, disregarding a framework for common understanding.. so, i've put up a challenge, is anyone up to it?

Be well..

No... I'd go along with what you said actually.

[BlueSky]

Greetings..


I do not understand the use of 'awareness' as a description for what is 'made known in the mind'.. 'awareness', as what it is, is the ability of acquire information.. though, there seems to be a trendy inclination to redefine awareness as a substitute for very adequate descriptions already used and understood.. in this way, people can claim 'repackaged' common understandings as 'spiritual', while actually adding layers of confusion and illusion..

I would challenge those who favor redefining 'awareness' from the common understanding as taken from Wikipedia: "Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.".. I would challenge those people to find the common usages for instances where they would use the word awareness other than the citation i have provided.. or, challenge me to translate any expression in which you use 'awareness' other than as cited in Wikipedia, challenge me to find a more commonly acceptable term or phrase.. It is my sincere belief that we can better express the depth and usefulness of our understandings and experiences by avoiding a reliance on an ambiguous 'catch-all' term, language is a sophisticated and richly nuanced tool, and.. it seems unjustifiable to not challenge ourselves to use it to more accurately express ourselves..

James says, "It's hard to explain.", and it is, if you're trying to use a word like 'awareness' where it doesn't mean what is trying to be communicated.. as has been pointed-out previously, that language evolves, yes it does.. but, that is not cause to intentionally skew meanings, to force words and phrases to fit individual preferences, disregarding a framework for common understanding.. so, i've put up a challenge, is anyone up to it?

Be well..

There is a knowing beyond knowing and I have been one saying no there isn't forever...lol But there is..............no matter what wikipedia says.
There is awareness you speak of but this is at the very least, beyond that.
The awareness most are aware of is unawareness. Which is actually awareness unaware and now is awareness aware thru this body/mind.
The word works for me because the sense was being aware as my very essence. The only essence.
Awareness has no mind.................it awares thru the body/mind/creation but it's pure form is not that way.
Now I'm sharing what has been realized. Not someone elses words or something I experienced.
There is no disputing this here or anywhere. I cannot explain it because no one can get it...............this realization happens.........and it doesn't happen. Debating it or trying to find a better word is no different than what Rikki was unaware of. There is no look and see. There is no explain this so I can understand. There is looking and seeing and understanding though. It happens. I'm only sharing.

[hybrid]

Greetings..


I do not understand the use of 'awareness' as a description for what is 'made known in the mind'.. 'awareness', as what it is, is the ability of acquire information.. though, there seems to be a trendy inclination to redefine awareness as a substitute for very adequate descriptions already used and understood.. in this way, people can claim 'repackaged' common understandings as 'spiritual', while actually adding layers of confusion and illusion..

I would challenge those who favor redefining 'awareness' from the common understanding as taken from Wikipedia: "Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.".. I would challenge those people to find the common usages for instances where they would use the word awareness other than the citation i have provided.. or, challenge me to translate any expression in which you use 'awareness' other than as cited in Wikipedia, challenge me to find a more commonly acceptable term or phrase.. It is my sincere belief that we can better express the depth and usefulness of our understandings and experiences by avoiding a reliance on an ambiguous 'catch-all' term, language is a sophisticated and richly nuanced tool, and.. it seems unjustifiable to not challenge ourselves to use it to more accurately express ourselves..

James says, "It's hard to explain.", and it is, if you're trying to use a word like 'awareness' where it doesn't mean what is trying to be communicated.. as has been pointed-out previously, that language evolves, yes it does.. but, that is not cause to intentionally skew meanings, to force words and phrases to fit individual preferences, disregarding a framework for common understanding.. so, i've put up a challenge, is anyone up to it?

Be well..
i never saw that awareness was used differently in ws posts.
(though it is inferred as something very fundamental)

but it's still the same question ....

what and who is aware.....
and although the obvious answer is me who else,
apparently it's wrong
thru a more and pure seeing/direct experience.

.

[BlueSky]

Awareness IS..................

Gotta go to bed now..........good night...........
Blessings..............

[Gem]

There is a knowing beyond knowing and I have been one saying no there isn't forever...lol But there is..............no matter what wikipedia says.
There is awareness you speak of but this is at the very least, beyond that.
The awareness most are aware of is unawareness. Which is actually awareness unaware and now is awareness aware thru this body/mind.
The word works for me because the sense was being aware as my very essence. The only essence.
Awareness has no mind.................it awares thru the body/mind/creation but it's pure form is not that way.
Now I'm sharing what has been realized. Not someone elses words or something I experienced.
There is no disputing this here or anywhere. I cannot explain it because no one can get it...............this realization happens.........and it doesn't happen. Debating it or trying to find a better word is no different than what Rikki was unaware of. There is no look and see. There is no explain this so I can understand. There is looking and seeing and understanding though. It happens. I'm only sharing.

I'm sure every person without exception is aware of awareness and everyone knows looking and seeing happens, it's a matter of curiosity isn't it.

If you want to share, why not just recount what happened as a description of the experience itself?

[TzuJanLi]

There is a knowing beyond knowing and I have been one saying no there isn't forever...lol But there is..............no matter what wikipedia says.
There is awareness you speak of but this is at the very least, beyond that.
The awareness most are aware of is unawareness. Which is actually awareness unaware and now is awareness aware thru this body/mind.
The word works for me because the sense was being aware as my very essence. The only essence.
Awareness has no mind.................it awares thru the body/mind/creation but it's pure form is not that way.
Now I'm sharing what has been realized. Not someone elses words or something I experienced.
There is no disputing this here or anywhere. I cannot explain it because no one can get it...............this realization happens.........and it doesn't happen. Debating it or trying to find a better word is no different than what Rikki was unaware of. There is no look and see. There is no explain this so I can understand. There is looking and seeing and understanding though. It happens. I'm only sharing.
The Wikipedia reference isn't about 'knowing', James.. it's about awareness, and awareness isn't about 'knowing'.. If you can say "But there is", then you can do a better job of describing it than the 'awareness/unaware/aware' jingles you're relying on, now.. i've followed you for a while, you're better than this.. the jumble of words you're using is just a way to avoid taking the time to really translate your realization into meaningful communication, but.. i know you can do it.

Be well..

[TzuJanLi]

i never saw that awareness was used differently in ws posts.
(though it is inferred as something very fundamental)

but it's still the same question ....

what and who is aware.....
and although the obvious answer is me who else,
apparently it's wrong
thru a more and pure seeing/direct experience.
.
And, so you see the quote below as no different than the Wikipedia definition i cited?
There is awareness you speak of but this is at the very least, beyond that.
The awareness most are aware of is unawareness. Which is actually awareness unaware and now is awareness aware thru this body/mind.
The word works for me because the sense was being aware as my very essence. The only essence.
Consciousness is aware, it is aware as Source, and as Source manifested as independently functioning versions of itself.. When you say "me", do you mean "me" as the Collective Whole Source, or "me" the Individualized Part? "I" am both, 'experienced' by how i use my 'awareness'..

Be well..

[hybrid]

The Wikipedia reference isn't about 'knowing', James.. it's about awareness, and awareness isn't about 'knowing'.. If you can say "But there is", then you can do a better job of describing it than the 'awareness/unaware/aware' jingles you're relying on, now.. i've followed you for a while, you're better than this.. the jumble of words you're using is just a way to avoid taking the time to really translate your realization into meaningful communication, but.. i know you can do it.

Be well..

it is about knowing. look at the attributes of awareness

Awareness is a relative concept (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FConcept). An animal (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FAnimal) may be partially aware, may be subconsciously (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FSubconscious) aware, or may be acutely aware of an event. Awareness may be focused on an internal state, such as a visceral feeling, or on external events by way of sensory perception. Awareness provides the raw material from which animals develop qualia (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FQualia), or subjective (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FSubjectivity) ideas (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FIdea) about their experience (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FExperience).


1. conscious
2. perception
3, cognition
4. qualia
5. experience

[hybrid]

And, so you see the quote below as no different than the Wikipedia definition i cited?

Consciousness is aware, it is aware as Source, and as Source manifested as independently functioning versions of itself.. When you say "me", do you mean "me" as the Collective Whole Source, or "me" the Individualized Part? "I" am both, 'experienced' by how i use my 'awareness'..

Be well..
who or what is aware cannot be known ultimately becasue the ability to perceive depends on awareness.

iow, if you stripped everything of all the possible things you can be aware of , you will end up in nothing but just being aware. of nothing. just aware of being aware.

this is the same analogy of " a tongue that can taste everything except it self"
or an eye who can't turn around fast enough to see what is behind the looking

as i repeatedly said, to postulate what is aware, whether a me or cosmic consciosuness or god or obladi oblada, it is only just an abstraction , a guess or a theory. derive from deduction, logic or reason, but never in experience.

[Enlightener]

There is a knowing beyond knowing and I have been one saying no there isn't forever...lol But there is..............no matter what wikipedia says.
There is awareness you speak of but this is at the very least, beyond that.
The awareness most are aware of is unawareness. Which is actually awareness unaware and now is awareness aware thru this body/mind.
The word works for me because the sense was being aware as my very essence. The only essence.
Awareness has no mind.................it awares thru the body/mind/creation but it's pure form is not that way.
Now I'm sharing what has been realized. Not someone elses words or something I experienced.
There is no disputing this here or anywhere. I cannot explain it because no one can get it...............this realization happens.........and it doesn't happen. Debating it or trying to find a better word is no different than what Rikki was unaware of. There is no look and see. There is no explain this so I can understand. There is looking and seeing and understanding though. It happens. I'm only sharing.

Spot on Whiteshaman :)

[Gem]

who or what is aware cannot be known ultimately becasue the ability to perceive depends on awareness.

It can and it can't and neither (not to mention both)

iow, if you stripped everything of all the possible things you can be aware of , you will end up in nothing but just being aware. of nothing. just aware of being aware.

this is the same analogy of " a tongue that can taste everything except it self"
or an eye who can't turn around fast enough to see what is behind the looking

as i repeatedly said, to postulate what is aware, whether a me or cosmic consciosuness or god or obladi oblada, it is only just an abstraction , a guess or a theory. derive from deduction, logic or reason, but never in experience.

It really all depends on whether or not you know what iwo means really.

[Gem]

oh I GOT IT! 'in other words'.

(bliss overwhelms Gem)

[SerpentQueen]

Greetings..


I do not understand the use of 'awareness' as a description for what is 'made known in the mind'.. 'awareness', as what it is, is the ability of acquire information.. though, there seems to be a trendy inclination to redefine awareness as a substitute for very adequate descriptions already used and understood.. in this way, people can claim 'repackaged' common understandings as 'spiritual', while actually adding layers of confusion and illusion..

I would challenge those who favor redefining 'awareness' from the common understanding as taken from Wikipedia: "Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.".. I would challenge those people to find the common usages for instances where they would use the word awareness other than the citation i have provided.. or, challenge me to translate any expression in which you use 'awareness' other than as cited in Wikipedia, challenge me to find a more commonly acceptable term or phrase.. It is my sincere belief that we can better express the depth and usefulness of our understandings and experiences by avoiding a reliance on an ambiguous 'catch-all' term, language is a sophisticated and richly nuanced tool, and.. it seems unjustifiable to not challenge ourselves to use it to more accurately express ourselves..

James says, "It's hard to explain.", and it is, if you're trying to use a word like 'awareness' where it doesn't mean what is trying to be communicated.. as has been pointed-out previously, that language evolves, yes it does.. but, that is not cause to intentionally skew meanings, to force words and phrases to fit individual preferences, disregarding a framework for common understanding.. so, i've put up a challenge, is anyone up to it?

Be well..

I'm up for it but this is second night in a row with little sleep so it will be quite the challenge for me, but I am following along as best as I can.

I once read some thick & ploddingly ponderous book about consciousness, written by some experts in the field -- by that I don't mean new agers or spiritualists or even philosophers, but scientists working on dissecting the brain. The upshot of that book seemed to be "nobody really knows how to define consciousness, nor to understand where it arises."

Awareness should be a lot, lot simpler.

I think I am understanding the difference between awareness and consciousness as defined by Wikipedia. By that definition, a rock could not be aware as it has no nervous system in which to sense and perceive and feel.

But I can't help but think about Schroedinger's cat. Instead of a cat, put a rock in the box. When the observer opens the box, the rock is either manifested within (complete with its entire back-story since the very beginning of its existence) or the rock is not manifested and the box is empty....

Seems to me there must be some sort of mechanism in that darn rock that is "communicating" or tapped in or whatever (help me with the words, please) with the observer, no?

Awareness may not be the right or best word, I agree... but what would the word be, for how the rock somehow "senses" or "knows" that the observer needs it to manifest or not?

[Topology]

Greetings..


I do not understand the use of 'awareness' as a description for what is 'made known in the mind'.. 'awareness', as what it is, is the ability of acquire information.. though, there seems to be a trendy inclination to redefine awareness as a substitute for very adequate descriptions already used and understood.. in this way, people can claim 'repackaged' common understandings as 'spiritual', while actually adding layers of confusion and illusion..


What spirituality? I don't meditate any more, I live a life of stress, I respond more to people's suffering than any kind of holiness or supernatural ability. I call it spirituality, but what I live in is more like an end to spiritual endeavor. I'm here because there's no where else to go to really talk about it and share and explore.

Tzu, you're very focused on language usage and I'd say you're more obsessed with having a correct ontology than I am. I view language usage as poetry, its all poetry, even the logic is. So when I hear someone speak, I listen to the emotionality of the expression. WS's word usage is compelled by his being. He is speaking in high poetry. Expecting people to speak in a certain kind of way, like restricting usage to "ordinary language" is anti-poetry. The insistence on communication being strictly logical sterilizes the heart of the communication.

WS testifies to having an experience which basically reset his understanding and now he is learning how to walk again. The mind has to re-learn how to operate in order to honor and speak from the newly acquired perspective. I find value in WS's contributions because it feels like he's speaking to the edge of understanding. He's speaking form the edge of his understanding. If we never stray past what we understand then there is no growth. So you're here complaining about not understanding someone and demanding they speak in a way that caters to your understanding. I appreciate your and my interaction because what you express is outside my understanding, you're pushing on my to grow my understanding. But you definitely appear to be resistant when dealing with things outside of your particular understanding.

I frequently have experiences in life where my current understanding is challenged and I enter into a dissociative state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissociation) Where I feel like my mind loses traction and all I experience is perception and an empty awareness. When WhiteShaman talks about the silent movie reel, I find the description fits quite well with this dissociative state. I'm using the term dissociation because normal mind functioning is stopped. What it feels like is entering into a dream-state. Perception becomes fluid, I feel like I am hollowed-out and I lose the ability to respond and process conversation. People talking starts to sound like wah-wah-wah from peanuts. I go into a trance state and I'll have people ask me if I'm okay because I am clearly not responding normally. The only thing I experience about myself and the mind in this state is its noticed absence. I am speaking here from how things feel, how language wants to express what is felt, not from how words are defined. It feels like the mind and my self is absent. There is a phenomenal experience of emptiness, even though rationally, logically it doesn't make conceptual sense to call it emptiness, but there is a feeling of absence.

Outside the experience, when the logical mind returns, I can sit and analyze the memory of the experience, that there must have been a mind present and operating because I have memory, feelings were felt and stored, but in the experience, if I were to speak truthfully, It feels like an absence of mind, an absence of self. Of the faculties of the mind that remain active, only Perception and Awareness feel active, and perception actually starts to bleed away depending how far into the state I go. With the absence of mind and self, there is a felt emptiness and a simultaneous fullness or allness. And despite this state being less engaged with the world, it feels more real than the world because the world and the mind that is absent are layerings on top of this state. This state is always present, but masked by the mind that is now absent. Conceptually, this state can be thought of as consciousness experiencing itself, the only faculty fully active being awareness.

There is no me being aware. It is the allness/emptiness, consciousness, that which is felt as not the personal me, that is aware. The light is on and the light sees itself. Because Awareness is the primary faculty that remains, that term becomes the descriptive indicator of this state. Because there is a felt absence of self, in the state when the questions is asked, "What is aware?" (asking for a noun) the answer "nothing", "everything", "awareness itself" all feels descriptively accurate while "Mind" and "me" do not feel descriptively accurate because most of that feels absent. When consciousness is this fluid, the mind is continually melting and dissolving, it becomes very hard to take a conceptual stance and discretize the experience in order to communicate it. After the experience passes, the mind can return to its structured and analytic nature and the sense of self returns and we begin the quest of trying to understand "What happened to me?"

You can call all these words a whole bunch of confusion and illusion. Or you can see that what I am attempting to describe is an altered state of consciousness which requires an altered use of language to try to communicate about it. The faculty of awareness is the primary felt quality, since the other faculties of mind are dormant, it FEELS LIKE the mind is dormant, absent, not active, not present.

How each of us responds to these experiences which impact us in profound ways differs from person to person, based on their personality. Some people prefer not to try to talk about it. Some people feel the compulsion to talk about it. Some people will employ poetic expression to try to capture the felt quality of the experience. Some people will try to communicate about it through contrast from ordinary experiences. Yes, for someone who has never payed conscious attention to this state of consciousness when it arises in them, they are not going to understand the language use. BUT THAT IS A GOOD THING. The confusion and struggle with language is the mind unraveling, weakening its held structural nature and on its way to dissolution. In this state, the mind isn't just still, implying no movement, it has dissolved implying amorphousness and fluidity, a breakdown of structure.


I would challenge those who favor redefining 'awareness' from the common understanding as taken from Wikipedia: "Awareness is the state or ability to perceive, to feel, or to be conscious of events, objects or sensory patterns. In this level of consciousness, sense data can be confirmed by an observer without necessarily implying understanding. More broadly, it is the state or quality of being aware of something. In biological psychology, awareness is defined as a human's or an animal's perception and cognitive reaction to a condition or event.".. I would challenge those people to find the common usages for instances where they would use the word awareness other than the citation i have provided.. or, challenge me to translate any expression in which you use 'awareness' other than as cited in Wikipedia, challenge me to find a more commonly acceptable term or phrase.. It is my sincere belief that we can better express the depth and usefulness of our understandings and experiences by avoiding a reliance on an ambiguous 'catch-all' term, language is a sophisticated and richly nuanced tool, and.. it seems unjustifiable to not challenge ourselves to use it to more accurately express ourselves..


That's the problem. From this altered state of consciousness, (altered from ordinary everyday consciousness) the words used do feel descriptively accurate. Because most of the other faculties of the mind are absent, it feels like only awareness remains and the mind is absent. Your request to alter the expression would cause the person speaking to feel like they are being less descriptively accurate.



James says, "It's hard to explain.", and it is, if you're trying to use a word like 'awareness' where it doesn't mean what is trying to be communicated.. as has been pointed-out previously, that language evolves, yes it does.. but, that is not cause to intentionally skew meanings, to force words and phrases to fit individual preferences, disregarding a framework for common understanding.. so, i've put up a challenge, is anyone up to it?

Be well..


It's hard to describe because the mind and its analytic capacity is in a state of fluidity and is dissolved in the experience. Description requires discretizing the experience, but the experience doesn't feel discrete.

[BlueSky]

I'm sure every person without exception is aware of awareness and everyone knows looking and seeing happens, it's a matter of curiosity isn't it.

If you want to share, why not just recount what happened as a description of the experience itself?

I have done just that. Where I haven't or if I haven't, is where I faultered. But I don't believe I have or could.
You'll just have to take what I shared for what it is. I have no answers, no agendas, no purpose.
Sorry.......

[BlueSky]

The Wikipedia reference isn't about 'knowing', James.. it's about awareness, and awareness isn't about 'knowing'.. If you can say "But there is", then you can do a better job of describing it than the 'awareness/unaware/aware' jingles you're relying on, now.. i've followed you for a while, you're better than this.. the jumble of words you're using is just a way to avoid taking the time to really translate your realization into meaningful communication, but.. i know you can do it.

Be well..

The knowing reference was to show that wikipedia has no place with these words.
I'm sorry Tzu, I'm not out to convince you or anyone of this. It is what it is. It's all I got and it's the best I got. I've shared what is known and no more in the best way I can. There is no understanding this as a result of trying to understand it. It is and was quite spontaneous ans left quite an impression.

[BlueSky]

who or what is aware cannot be known ultimately becasue the ability to perceive depends on awareness.

iow, if you stripped everything of all the possible things you can be aware of , you will end up in nothing but just being aware. of nothing. just aware of being aware.

this is the same analogy of " a tongue that can taste everything except it self"
or an eye who can't turn around fast enough to see what is behind the looking

as i repeatedly said, to postulate what is aware, whether a me or cosmic consciosuness or god or obladi oblada, it is only just an abstraction , a guess or a theory. derive from deduction, logic or reason, but never in experience.

In addition, what I've shared is that there was an awareness of creation as empty. It was there but empty. So there was more than awareness aware............there was awareness of creation empty. There was awareness of no fear, bliss, only-ness.

[BlueSky]

who or what is aware cannot be known ultimately becasue the ability to perceive depends on awareness.

iow, if you stripped everything of all the possible things you can be aware of , you will end up in nothing but just being aware. of nothing. just aware of being aware.

this is the same analogy of " a tongue that can taste everything except it self"
or an eye who can't turn around fast enough to see what is behind the looking

as i repeatedly said, to postulate what is aware, whether a me or cosmic consciosuness or god or obladi oblada, it is only just an abstraction , a guess or a theory. derive from deduction, logic or reason, but never in experience.

Yes and the urge comes up to do this as does other habits of unawareness.

[BlueSky]

I'm up for it but this is second night in a row with little sleep so it will be quite the challenge for me, but I am following along as best as I can.

I once read some thick & ploddingly ponderous book about consciousness, written by some experts in the field -- by that I don't mean new agers or spiritualists or even philosophers, but scientists working on dissecting the brain. The upshot of that book seemed to be "nobody really knows how to define consciousness, nor to understand where it arises."

Awareness should be a lot, lot simpler.

I think I am understanding the difference between awareness and consciousness as defined by Wikipedia. By that definition, a rock could not be aware as it has no nervous system in which to sense and perceive and feel.

But I can't help but think about Schroedinger's cat. Instead of a cat, put a rock in the box. When the observer opens the box, the rock is either manifested within (complete with its entire back-story since the very beginning of its existence) or the rock is not manifested and the box is empty....

Seems to me there must be some sort of mechanism in that darn rock that is "communicating" or tapped in or whatever (help me with the words, please) with the observer, no?

Awareness may not be the right or best word, I agree... but what would the word be, for how the rock somehow "senses" or "knows" that the observer needs it to manifest or not?

The rock is empty as I've seen and awareness fills it with itself, gives it life so to speak thru you, your body/mind/senses.

[hybrid]

The rock is empty as I've seen and awareness fills it with itself, gives it life so to speak thru you, your body/mind/senses.
yes awareness can do that
or should i say to be consistent with wiki by just saying ,, yes these things can happen? lols

[moke64916]

I did not wake up and become aware of awareness Moke. I realized life is awareness aware and or unaware.
There is no one to become aware of awareness. There is only life realizing it is awareness. Waking up. Nothing is happening and yet as Paul has said...nothing IS happening.
Soul, ego, enlightenment are all happening in unawareness. Life wakes up and sees this. Life sees it is only happening in awareness.
My sense was when this body dies, this unique expression of awareness thru this body and mind end or better said goes back to emptiness/bliss/peace apart from life. Expands might be a better word.
How or if it expands thru this body/mind now remains to be seen but as hybrid said all knowledge ends in awareness. Being is all that is left whatever that may be.
The only thing 'I' mean when I say 'aware of awareness' is soul being aware of soul. Self being awRe of self. 'knowing' that you are your soul. People might think they are, and only when they experience it as such will the understanding come. When one makes that mind, body, spirit connection is when the true magic begins. Absolute freedom of choice. If you wish to feel bliss. If you wish to stop all thoughts, just say it. If you wish to feel a certain feeling. Just say it, and it will instantly manifest WITHOUT thought. Awareness is absolutely key. Because it is when you are fully aware of everything going on within and without of self is when you have absolute freedom. This has been my experience.

[BlueSky]

What spirituality? I don't meditate any more, I live a life of stress, I respond more to people's suffering than any kind of holiness or supernatural ability. I call it spirituality, but what I live in is more like an end to spiritual endeavor. I'm here because there's no where else to go to really talk about it and share and explore.

Tzu, you're very focused on language usage and I'd say you're more obsessed with having a correct ontology than I am. I view language usage as poetry, its all poetry, even the logic is. So when I hear someone speak, I listen to the emotionality of the expression. WS's word usage is compelled by his being. He is speaking in high poetry. Expecting people to speak in a certain kind of way, like restricting usage to "ordinary language" is anti-poetry. The insistence on communication being strictly logical sterilizes the heart of the communication.

WS testifies to having an experience which basically reset his understanding and now he is learning how to walk again. The mind has to re-learn how to operate in order to honor and speak from the newly acquired perspective. I find value in WS's contributions because it feels like he's speaking to the edge of understanding. He's speaking form the edge of his understanding. If we never stray past what we understand then there is no growth. So you're here complaining about not understanding someone and demanding they speak in a way that caters to your understanding. I appreciate your and my interaction because what you express is outside my understanding, you're pushing on my to grow my understanding. But you definitely appear to be resistant when dealing with things outside of your particular understanding.

I frequently have experiences in life where my current understanding is challenged and I enter into a dissociative state (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fen.wikipedia.org%2525252525252Fwiki%252525252525 2FDissociation) Where I feel like my mind loses traction and all I experience is perception and an empty awareness. When WhiteShaman talks about the silent movie reel, I find the description fits quite well with this dissociative state. I'm using the term dissociation because normal mind functioning is stopped. What it feels like is entering into a dream-state. Perception becomes fluid, I feel like I am hollowed-out and I lose the ability to respond and process conversation. People talking starts to sound like wah-wah-wah from peanuts. I go into a trance state and I'll have people ask me if I'm okay because I am clearly not responding normally. The only thing I experience about myself and the mind in this state is its noticed absence. I am speaking here from how things feel, how language wants to express what is felt, not from how words are defined. It feels like the mind and my self is absent. There is a phenomenal experience of emptiness, even though rationally, logically it doesn't make conceptual sense to call it emptiness, but there is a feeling of absence.

Outside the experience, when the logical mind returns, I can sit and analyze the memory of the experience, that there must have been a mind present and operating because I have memory, feelings were felt and stored, but in the experience, if I were to speak truthfully, It feels like an absence of mind, an absence of self. Of the faculties of the mind that remain active, only Perception and Awareness feel active, and perception actually starts to bleed away depending how far into the state I go. With the absence of mind and self, there is a felt emptiness and a simultaneous fullness or allness. And despite this state being less engaged with the world, it feels more real than the world because the world and the mind that is absent are layerings on top of this state. This state is always present, but masked by the mind that is now absent. Conceptually, this state can be thought of as consciousness experiencing itself, the only faculty fully active being awareness.

There is no me being aware. It is the allness/emptiness, consciousness, that which is felt as not the personal me, that is aware. The light is on and the light sees itself. Because Awareness is the primary faculty that remains, that term becomes the descriptive indicator of this state. Because there is a felt absence of self, in the state when the questions is asked, "What is aware?" (asking for a noun) the answer "nothing", "everything", "awareness itself" all feels descriptively accurate while "Mind" and "me" do not feel descriptively accurate because most of that feels absent. When consciousness is this fluid, the mind is continually melting and dissolving, it becomes very hard to take a conceptual stance and discretize the experience in order to communicate it. After the experience passes, the mind can return to its structured and analytic nature and the sense of self returns and we begin the quest of trying to understand "What happened to me?"

You can call all these words a whole bunch of confusion and illusion. Or you can see that what I am attempting to describe is an altered state of consciousness which requires an altered use of language to try to communicate about it. The faculty of awareness is the primary felt quality, since the other faculties of mind are dormant, it FEELS LIKE the mind is dormant, absent, not active, not present.

How each of us responds to these experiences which impact us in profound ways differs from person to person, based on their personality. Some people prefer not to try to talk about it. Some people feel the compulsion to talk about it. Some people will employ poetic expression to try to capture the felt quality of the experience. Some people will try to communicate about it through contrast from ordinary experiences. Yes, for someone who has never payed conscious attention to this state of consciousness when it arises in them, they are not going to understand the language use. BUT THAT IS A GOOD THING. The confusion and struggle with language is the mind unraveling, weakening its held structural nature and on its way to dissolution. In this state, the mind isn't just still, implying no movement, it has dissolved implying amorphousness and fluidity, a breakdown of structure.



That's the problem. From this altered state of consciousness, (altered from ordinary everyday consciousness) the words used do feel descriptively accurate. Because most of the other faculties of the mind are absent, it feels like only awareness remains and the mind is absent. Your request to alter the expression would cause the person speaking to feel like they are being less descriptively accurate.





It's hard to describe because the mind and its analytic capacity is in a state of fluidity and is dissolved in the experience. Description requires discretizing the experience, but the experience doesn't feel discrete.

Exactly..........and thank you for this post.
I would add that what you describe as an absence of me was more like all there is is me. There was nothing outside of me. When I look at you from this knowing, the conclusion is that you are indeed me.
By the way "highly poetic" has never been said when talking about me.............felt good! lol

Now with all due respect to Tzu.........I've noticed you getting on Hybrid to stop quoting "the masters" and share what he has seen or experienced personally.
I see no problem with sharing what the masters say, but I didn't do that. I shared exactly what happened, what I've seen/realized and your response was:

there seems to be a trendy inclination to redefine awareness as a substitute for very adequate descriptions already used and understood.. in this way, people can claim 'repackaged' common understandings as 'spiritual', while actually adding layers of confusion and illusion..

In my eyes that is a form of blasphemy.....adding an "agenda" to that which is pure and holy.......I don't mean that as an insult, it simply is seen for what it is. A slap in the face of God.
But hey God is slapping himself, or so it seems to me....... so slap away........
James

[BlueSky]

yes awareness can do that
or should i say to be consistent with wiki by just saying ,, yes these things can happen? lols

And it does that in such a way as to limit itself so that it uniquely sees thru each body/mind.....and who knows what else.
Now why it does this is not known nor can it be known. It wouldn't ask this question.............the question only comes up in unawareness............I've noticed this within myself and recognized it for what it is.

[hybrid]

Now with all due respect to Tzu.........I've noticed you getting on Hybrid to stop quoting "the masters" and share what he has seen or experienced personally.
I see no problem with sharing what the masters say, but I didn't do that. I shared exactly what happened, what I've seen/realized and your response was:

see what happened when you share your experience?

you go into trial and cross-examined. lols

[BlueSky]

see what happened when you share your experience?

you go into trial and cross-examined. lols

It's all good......:smile:

[Topology]

Exactly..........and thank you for this post.
I would add that what you describe as an absence of me was more like all there is is me. There was nothing outside of me. When I look at you from this knowing, the conclusion is that you are indeed me.

[/COLOR]


There is a bit of enantiodromia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enantiodromia) going on where going to one extreme brings about the other. All-me, no-me its just a matter of which direction the boundary between me and not-me moved during the experience, either out to infinity, its all me, or towards 0, I am nothing and all there is is allness, other-ness. It's just an optical illusion, like the duck-bird.

[BlueSky]

There is a bit of enantiodromia (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwik i%2FEnantiodromia) going on where going to one extreme brings about the other. All-me, no-me its just a matter of which direction the boundary between me and not-me moved during the experience, either out to infinity, its all me, or towards 0, I am nothing and all there is is allness, other-ness. It's just an optical illusion, like the duck-bird.

Yes and "Awareness/unawareness" seemed to be the essence of itself which falls in line with that being a principle noticed in life which you call enantiodromia.

[Silver]

Aww jeez james, now you got me sucked into wanting to understand this thing you've experienced! curses! I get up at 5:30 come in read this stuff...got back to bed, lay there thinking...is it like the dark side of the moon / light side of the moon? is it like tree falling inthe woods? Heehee. And then accusing tzu of slapping god, and then well, can't help but laugh.......
I just hope you're getting something out of it coz it's driving me a bit nutso...
:hug2:

[BlueSky]

Aww jeez james, now you got me sucked into wanting to understand this thing you've experienced! curses! I get up at 5:30 come in read this stuff...got back to bed, lay there thinking...is it like the dark side of the moon / light side of the moon? is it like tree falling inthe woods? Heehee. And then accusing tzu of slapping god, and then well, can't help but laugh.......
I just hope you're getting something out of it coz it's driving me a bit nutso...
:hug2:

My life of seeking went down numerous amazing roads. My life of trying to understand left me not knowing anything...........then this............

Try to undertand if you must but it doesn't seem to work that way. It's probably best to admit it can't be understood and go on with ones life.
I did.............

My choice of words to Tzu were not personally. It's like slapping God in the face, from where I sit, the energy in his words he used.
We could dwell on that, and some may, but if you read the energy I used in it, you will see what I meant and that I meant no disrespect to Tzu.

[moke64916]

I've observed that top and tzu explain their spiritual experiences with reason and logic. They both have high with their academia and seem to take a scientific view with their spiritual experience. I respect everyones viewpoints. Me, personally, I am transcending with my linguistics. I experience different aspects of myself as I choose. I am neither 'this' nor 'that'.

[Gem]

I see things so differently that awareness of awareness is just a given of no remarkable profundity... it's just that awareness applies equally and constantly to changing things...

To be more attuned to the faculty of awareness allows for equanimity of mind as storms might in thoughts and emotions while awareness remains still.

To say 'we are awareness' is rather strange to me, because awareness itself an experience...

It's all very strange to me, people posing as though there is an answer. Here's awareness, that's my true self. Oh dear, and then it's, yeah but this only points at the moon... and I can see it's all reiteration of spiritual catch phrasing even I have read (I'm very poorly read).

What it is... who I am... what is this... so many questions. I'm so confused. Maybe I should read tolle, osho, chopra and the karma sutra... surely I could be wise, liberated and reiterate jargon.

What you are is a misnomer... so such a thing as there is you and no you are only extremes of dogma, like is there god or not. Tenet and Dogma!

Lets worship that bloke at the head of RT's heirachy and be assighned titles like liberated and liberator and so on... what is this structure? Who validates these ranks? Who conformed these drones?

The intent... you see... that's what you bring with you... just (deleted) LOOK at that.

[Silver]

I wasn't implying you were dissing tzu. I said it left me laughing at the whole scenario. I do believe it's out of frustration, y'know trying to understand, get a clear picture of what it is you've experienced that seems to have changed you and yet not. Quite puzzling from where I'm sitting, too. I mean nothing seems to have changed and yet you seem to indicate that it has, and I'm not trying to wrangle an explanation that you can't find the words for, that seems futile so suffice it for me to say, I'm just interested and curious in how you believe it has changed you, if possible.
It's amusing once a person just stops trying to understand it and recognize you as our good ol' buddy james.

[BlueSky]

I wasn't implying you were dissing tzu. I said it left me laughing at the whole scenario. I do believe it's out of frustration, y'know trying to understand, get a clear picture of what it is you've experienced that seems to have changed you and yet not. Quite puzzling from where I'm sitting, too. I mean nothing seems to have changed and yet you seem to indicate that it has, and I'm not trying to wrangle an explanation that you can't find the words for, that seems futile so suffice it for me to say, I'm just interested and curious in how you believe it has changed you, if possible.
It's amusing once a person just stops trying to understand it and recognize you as our good ol' buddy james.

Good ol james.....Love it!
What has changed is that I know. How that has changed me is just the confusion in not knowing is gone.
How it will change me to come is the exciting part. But yes the realization is significant and amazing and yet ordinary in the same breath.
If you knew me personally, you wouldn't notice anything different. I do though.....especially at first in the sense of naturally being present.

[moke64916]

I see things so differently that awareness of awareness is just a given of no remarkable profundity... it's just that awareness applies equally and constantly to changing things...

To be more attuned to the faculty of awareness allows for equanimity of mind as storms might in thoughts and emotions while awareness remains still.

To say 'we are awareness' is rather strange to me, because awareness itself an experience...

It's all very strange to me, people posing as though there is an answer. Here's awareness, that's my true self. Oh dear, and then it's, yeah but this only points at the moon... and I can see it's all reiteration of spiritual catch phrasing even I have read (I'm very poorly read).

What it is... who I am... what is this... so many questions. I'm so confused. Maybe I should read tolle, osho, chopra and the karma sutra... surely I could be wise, liberated and reiterate jargon.

What you are is a misnomer... so such a thing as there is you and no you are only extremes of dogma, like is there god or not. Tenet and Dogma!

Lets worship that bloke at the head of RT's heirachy and be assighned titles like liberated and liberator and so on... what is this structure? Who validates these ranks? Who conformed these drones?

The intent... you see... that's what you bring with you... just (deleted) LOOK at that.

I love you gem! You crack me up. :smile:

[moke64916]

I can always count on WhiteShaman for a quoted reply, lol. I love you WhiteShaman. I love everyone. Observing different aspects of members on this forum. You all will see me Mutate with my linguistics. I'm here. Now I'm not! lol.

[Silver]

Good ol james.....Love it!
What has changed is that I know. How that has changed me is just the confusion in not knowing is gone.
How it will change me to come is the exciting part. But yes the realization is significant and amazing and yet ordinary in the same breath.
If you knew me personally, you wouldn't notice anything different. I do though.....especially at first in the sense of naturally being present.


So...do ya think there's hope for the rest of us? or some of us...what do you think the odds are that any of us curiosity seekers will stumble upon what you did?
:hug:

[sound]

I just typed up a private message to you James and then deleted it because I thought ... no, dont be such a coward ... just post what you have to say out there and roll with the punches lol

You and i exchanged some dialogue together way back in the EL thread ... I tried to find it but wasn't successful unfortunately ... you asked me to describe my understanding/experience to you and i did, from a very deep place as it happened, and you weren't satisfied with the words i used and you prodded and poked at me and now i find you using those same words to describe your 'personal' experience ... what do you mean by life? ... what do you mean by essence? ... what do you mean by consciousness? ... what do you mean by energy? ... what do you mean by being? ... what do you mean by all that is?
I am not saying my experience or understandings is equal to yours but my attempts to describe it is ...

Just saying .... that has been stuck in my throat for quite some time now ... I dont expect it to earn me any friends lol ... you are a pretty popular guy here, and understandably so ... I will risk the slaying lol

[Topology]

Good ol james.....Love it!
What has changed is that I know. How that has changed me is just the confusion in not knowing is gone.
How it will change me to come is the exciting part. But yes the realization is significant and amazing and yet ordinary in the same breath.
If you knew me personally, you wouldn't notice anything different. I do though.....especially at first in the sense of naturally being present.


Next time I'm in the northeast, I'm going to have to come visit you. The tone of our mutual presence would create an enjoyable resonance. And no i don't mean to say this only to James, I would love to visit with everyone of the regulars if and when the opportunity arise, that includes you Gem, if you could stomach my presence. :D

[moke64916]

I think that was beautiful and courageous of you and normal to express your feelings/thoughts towards the given situation. You've winned my friendship. You always have. Peace.

[BlueSky]

I can always count on WhiteShaman for a quoted reply, lol. I love you WhiteShaman. I love everyone. Observing different aspects of members on this forum. You all will see me Mutate with my linguistics. I'm here. Now I'm not! lol.

Yes and I can count on you to ignore them...........lol
I love you too brother.....:smile:

[Topology]

Sound, glad you have the courage to post it publically, with each post you've made that I read, I only think more of you, not less.

[BlueSky]

Next time I'm in the northeast, I'm going to have to come visit you. The tone of our mutual presence would create an enjoyable resonance. And no i don't mean to say this only to James, I would love to visit with everyone of the regulars if and when the opportunity arise, that includes you Gem, if you could stomach my presence. :D

I'd like that........:smile:

For now I'll have to be content with our long distance friendship where you whoooping my backside in chess will seem to be a common occurrence...lol
I still can't sit down.........ouch!
Dang math-heads........

[andrew g]

I just typed up a private message to you James and then deleted it because I thought ... no, dont be such a coward ... just post what you have to say out there and roll with the punches lol

You and i exchanged some dialogue together way back in the EL thread ... I tried to find it but wasn't successful unfortunately ... you asked me to describe my understanding/experience to you and i did, from a very deep place as it happened, and you weren't satisfied with the words i used and you prodded and poked at me and now i find you using those same words to describe your 'personal' experience ... what do you mean by life? ... what do you mean by essence? ... what do you mean by consciousness? ... what do you mean by energy? ... what do you mean by being? ... what do you mean by all that is?
I am not saying my experience or understandings is equal to yours but my attempts to describe it is ...

Just saying .... that has been stuck in my throat for quite some time now ... I dont expect it to earn me any friends lol ... you are a pretty popular guy here, and understandably so ... I will risk the slaying lol

I have no idea what conversation you are talking about, but what popped into my mind when I read this was your power animal from the 'enchanted forest' that you picked a while back. Funny, I can remember quite a few people's.

Right, I suppose Id best get on with some slaying now then hehe.

[BlueSky]

So...do ya think there's hope for the rest of us? or some of us...what do you think the odds are that any of us curiosity seekers will stumble upon what you did?
:hug:

In my non-forum life I am surrounded by the most beautiful, strange, compassionate, etc people who never ever question life as I have in my 52 years.
They are perfect. You are perfect.
This thing happens and it doesn't.......thats just the way it is. There is no preference unless there is. I had no choice but to seek in my life. I was driven, others are not...........I didn't find anything. This just happened and life goes on.
I don't see it as a goal or purpose unless it is happening that way.

[sound]

I have no idea what conversation you are talking about, but what popped into my mind when I read this was your power animal from the 'enchanted forest' that you picked a while back. Funny, I can remember quite a few people's.

Right, I suppose Id best get on with some slaying now then hehe.

andrew i have no idea what you are talking about :D ... i think you might be confusing me with someone else ... i have not picked an animal have I? and what enchanted forest? lol I want some of what you are on lol

[BlueSky]

I just typed up a private message to you James and then deleted it because I thought ... no, dont be such a coward ... just post what you have to say out there and roll with the punches lol

You and i exchanged some dialogue together way back in the EL thread ... I tried to find it but wasn't successful unfortunately ... you asked me to describe my understanding/experience to you and i did, from a very deep place as it happened, and you weren't satisfied with the words i used and you prodded and poked at me and now i find you using those same words to describe your 'personal' experience ... what do you mean by life? ... what do you mean by essence? ... what do you mean by consciousness? ... what do you mean by energy? ... what do you mean by being? ... what do you mean by all that is?
I am not saying my experience or understandings is equal to yours but my attempts to describe it is ...

Just saying .... that has been stuck in my throat for quite some time now ... I dont expect it to earn me any friends lol ... you are a pretty popular guy here, and understandably so ... I will risk the slaying lol

I don't remember the details of that conversation but I remember the energy of it. It was different than how you took it . The questions I asked you was my attempt to explain to you what I've realized and this was after an attempt to just express what I've realized. I wasn't questioning you or your beliefs or comparing. I was trying to find common ground so that we could continue our discussion.
That is how i remember it anyways.
Let's just forget it and start the day fresh........I say.

I'm not sure how popular I am. I think people just recognize honesty in me.
I don't have any references............lol Rikki has one and he gets the ladies too.....lol
Only kidding.

[andrew g]

andrew i have no idea what you are talking about :D ... i think you might be confusing me with someone else ... i have not picked an animal have I? and what enchanted forest? lol I want some of what you are on lol

Hahaha you dont remember. Funny what we each remember isnt it. Lisa had a butterfly, dazzle had a camel, I had an eagle and you had a......

[sound]

ahhhh yes it was a thread someone had started ... I do remember now but no i am not sure what mine was lol maybe it was a bully ant or something lol

[sound]

I don't remember the details of that conversation but I remember the energy of it. It was different than how you took it . The questions I asked you was my attempt to explain to you what I've realized and this was after an attempt to just express what I've realized. I wasn't questioning you or your beliefs or comparing. I was trying to find common ground so that we could continue our discussion.
That is how i remember it anyways.
Let's just forget it and start the day fresh........I say.

I'm not sure how popular I am. I think people just recognize honesty in me.
I don't have any references............lol Rikki has one and he gets the ladies too.....lol
Only kidding.

No ... the exchange took place well before your recent experience you have been sharing ... its ok though ... dismiss it if that works for you:) my words sound immature to me now but at least i am not choking on them lol

[andrew g]

ahhhh yes it was a thread someone had started ... I do remember now but no i am not sure what mine was lol maybe it was a bully ant or something lol

Haha close. From what I remember your power animal was really cool. I dont remember the exact message but I remember part of it saying something along the lines that there is a time to be strong, courageous, to find your voice and not sit back passively. Here was your animal -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HiRso8jr4BA&feature=relmfu

[Lisa]

Hahaha you dont remember. Funny what we each remember isnt it. Lisa had a butterfly, dazzle had a camel, I had an eagle and you had a......

Hi Andrew, I don't remember that either. How long ago? I can't imagine picking a butterfly as a power animal- unless it came with a poem or something. But maybe. Refresh me memory. :smile:

[sound]

hahahaha andrew ... first up that is so sweet to go search for it ... the rhinoseros lol ... yeah thats me ... snuffing about in the ground all the time ... not looking up for long enough to see what is actually happening beyond my own nose lol

[andrew g]

Hi Andrew, I don't remember that either. How long ago? I can't imagine picking a butterfly as a power animal- unless it came with a poem or something. But maybe. Refresh me memory. :smile:

I was still in Spain so it was probably towards the end of 2010. We use the pointer and click on the part of the 'enchanted forest' which feels comfortable for us, and our power animal is then revealed. The butterfly was a lovely one too if I remember.

Our youngest, Analis, did it recently and got the 'gorilla' which tickled us all greatly. Again, really cool though. I guess they all are.

[Topology]

WS, I was only here a month before you realization, but I notice a definite change in your tone and expressed quality, feel like you are more easy going, gentler presence.

[BlueSky]

No ... the exchange took place well before your recent experience you have been sharing ... its ok though ... dismiss it if that works for you:) my words sound immature to me now but at least i am not choking on them lol

We have had a few exchanges Sound, maybe I am recalling the wrong one but dismissing it works for me. Why should it matter really if you think about it.
I'm ok with assuming I was a total idiot at the time..............I'm ok with starting fresh. :hug3:

So with that said, what are you really trying to say? I'm curious.

[andrew g]

hahahaha andrew ... first up that is so sweet to go search for it ... the rhinoseros lol ... yeah thats me ... snuffing about in the ground all the time ... not looking up for long enough to see what is actually happening beyond my own nose lol

Hahaha. I wish I could remember exactly what it said because it was cool. Each animal comes with 3 virtues, and at the end of the message it said something like.....'there may be times to lift your horn and charge!'

Anyway, its all just a bit of fun :smile:

[BlueSky]

WS, I was only here a month before you realization, but I notice a definite change in your tone and expressed quality, feel like you are more easy going, gentler presence.

Thanks.....It means something to hear it from someone who notices the energy in others words.

[Silver]

I was still in Spain so it was probably towards the end of 2010. We use the pointer and click on the part of the 'enchanted forest' which feels comfortable for us, and our power animal is then revealed. The butterfly was a lovely one too if I remember.

Our youngest, Analis, did it recently and got the 'gorilla' which tickled us all greatly. Again, really cool though. I guess they all are.



Oh I remember that! It was fun, but Idk, I don't remember what mine turned out to be.

[sound]

Dismissing it works for me. Why should it matter really if you think about it.
I'm ok with assuming I was a total idiot at the time..............I'm ok with starting fresh. :hug3:

True ... it doesn't matter, unless it does. Should is a word i save to use only on myself ... oh and sometimes in relation to children's safety and well being.

I am ok with whatever light it leaves me in too :hug3:

[andrew g]

Oh I remember that! It was fun, but Idk, I don't remember what mine turned out to be.

I dont recall yours either Silvergirl. The link floated around the forum a couple of times so maybe you did yours when I wasnt around.

Lisa, here is a description of what the butterfly means. Its not from the same website but its still a cool description. Of course, this was all quite a while ago so you would probably pick something different now. Anyway,

http://www.shamanicjourney.com/article/5991/butterfly-power-animal-symbol-of-change-the-soul-creativity-freedom-joy-and-colour-

[moke64916]

We have had a few exchanges Sound, maybe I am recalling the wrong one but dismissing it works for me. Why should it matter really if you think about it.
I'm ok with assuming I was a total idiot at the time..............I'm ok with starting fresh. :hug3:

So with that said, what are you really trying to say? I'm curious.
And those words right there prove to me that your maurity level is high, and you don't have much ego. You could not have ego at all. I do not know. I personally know now that soul has occupied mind, and body, ego has vanished forever for 'I'. Ego is just an identity that one makes about who they think they are. It's the minds identity it created out of itself through a lifetime of internal and external stimuli. It is actually crazy, because most people live with a false identity. Everyones identity is their souls, yet not everyone has made mind, body, spirit connection. By using those words that "I assume I was a total idiot at the time" demonstrates that there is NO ego present in your speech.

[Lisa]

I was still in Spain so it was probably towards the end of 2010. We use the pointer and click on the part of the 'enchanted forest' which feels comfortable for us, and our power animal is then revealed. The butterfly was a lovely one too if I remember.

Our youngest, Analis, did it recently and got the 'gorilla' which tickled us all greatly. Again, really cool though. I guess they all are.

Kudos to your memory! Wow. Impressed.

And I do remember it now. It's not like you choose the animal, but somehow you get the animal. Coz I want a tiger or lion or bear!

Well done. :wink:

[Lisa]

I dont recall yours either Silvergirl. The link floated around the forum a couple of times so maybe you did yours when I wasnt around.

Lisa, here is a description of what the butterfly means. Its not from the same website but its still a cool description. Of course, this was all quite a while ago so you would probably pick something different now. Anyway,

http://www.shamanicjourney.com/article/5991/butterfly-power-animal-symbol-of-change-the-soul-creativity-freedom-joy-and-colour-

Thank you Andrew. Says some really cool stuff. (still want the lion though. lol)

[andrew g]

Thank you Andrew. Says some really cool stuff. (still want the lion though. lol)

Hahaha dont we all!

[BlueSky]

And those words right there prove to me that your maurity level is high, and you don't have much ego. You could not have ego at all. I do not know. I personally know now that soul has occupied mind, and body, ego has vanished forever for 'I'. Ego is just an identity that one makes about who they think they are. It's the minds identity it created out of itself through a lifetime of internal and external stimuli. It is actually crazy, because most people live with a false identity. Everyones identity is their souls, yet not everyone has made mind, body, spirit connection. By using those words that "I assume I was a total idiot at the time" demonstrates that there is NO ego present in your speech.

It's just maturity. Living a full life and treating others the way I would like to be treated. It's also from seeing the perfection in all people.
Ego..........is a word I don't really get.
I love my uniqueness.............I love my likes and desires. I love and embrace everything about me.

[Topology]

Dorothy: oh my!

[Silver]

It's just maturity. Living a full life and treating others the way I would like to be treated. It's also from seeing the perfection in all people.
Ego..........is a word I don't really get.
I love my uniqueness.............I love my likes and desires. I love and embrace everything about me.


Wasn't ego id super ego and all that jazz made up by some guy high on coke?

[sound]

I noticed you edited there James after i responded ...



So with that said, what are you really trying to say? I'm curious.

Just my feelings playing themselves out ... no hidden agendas or ulterior motives .... it has probably helped me to release some crazy baggage i have been lugging around for however long ... apologies if you were the catalyst there :hug3:

[Lisa]

Dorothy: oh my!

Thank you! Oz came to mind but something askew. "Lions, tigers and bears."

Oh My. :wink:

[Topology]

I noticed you edited there James after i responded ...



Just my feelings playing themselves out ... no hidden agendas or ulterior motives .... it has probably helped me to release some crazy baggage i have been lugging around for however long ... apologies if you were the catalyst there :hug3:

We usually have to expel that which we internalized in order to claim our power back.

[BlueSky]

I noticed you edited there James after i responded ...



Just my feelings playing themselves out ... no hidden agendas or ulterior motives .... it has probably helped me to release some crazy baggage i have been lugging around for however long ... apologies if you were the catalyst there :hug3:

No need to apologize. i was just trying to understand. Thanks...:hug3:

[BlueSky]

Wasn't ego id super ego and all that jazz made up by some guy high on coke?

IMO, ego is another way to keep the energy called Satan and sin alive.

I have no enemies.

[Rememoration]

When did this thread reach 20+ pages again? LOL
Seems to be a very debatable , and argumentative topic.

[Silver]

...something irresistible and tantalizing about it, isnt' there~*

[Topology]

When did this thread reach 20+ pages again? LOL
Seems to be a very debatable , and argumentative topic.

You got a bunch of refugees from a war torn thread taking up residence. :)

[Silver]

...if you can't beat 'em join 'em, ****.

{Very easy for me to do ~ after re-reading some of this, I think I'm a rock.}

[sound]

Sound, glad you have the courage to post it publically, with each post you've made that I read, I only think more of you, not less.

Thank you Edward ... I missed reading this last night ...

[Gem]

Next time I'm in the northeast, I'm going to have to come visit you. The tone of our mutual presence would create an enjoyable resonance. And no i don't mean to say this only to James, I would love to visit with everyone of the regulars if and when the opportunity arise, that includes you Gem, if you could stomach my presence. :D

Yeah... I come down there with all my tone and mutually be present in the enjoyable resonance... what a load of waffles.

What is this language? Do people really talk like that?

pfffft.

[Gem]

Thanks.....It means something to hear it from someone who notices the energy in others words.

Notices the energy in other's words... or judges everything anyone says... that's a pretty important distinction WS... Now make your asessment.

[BlueSky]

Sorry Gem..........you'll have to pick a fight with someone else. I'm not biting.......lol

[Gem]

Sorry Gem..........you'll have to pick a fight with someone else. I'm not biting.......lol

I'm not buying.

It it not a contrivance? I mean you do leap upon opportunity, such as when I say look to where awareness arizes... and you respond with answers... I wasn't even asking a question... and consider what sound said too...

I agreed with Tzu before, not so much for the particular content, but because he pointed out how convoluting things, such as the kind of language I was ridiculing two posts ago is, distracting and insincere.

I know you speak of your grandson, who has no lofty notions of his own, but also brings with him something which you know. I mean, that's the 'what it is', it's something along those lines, and all these answers don't mean (deleted).

You don't want to fight... but you don't want to listen... and retaining the position of enlightened one, just as positions of liberated and liberator are doled out at RT under the consensus of who blows smoke up your butt, like Moke loves me, no, he doesn't know me from adam... you love the grandchild, that's is true.

It just brings me to say... it doesn't matter 'what it is'... but it matters if you bring 'it' with you.

[Topology]

Yeah... I come down there with all my tone and mutually be present in the enjoyable resonance... what a load of waffles.

What is this language? Do people really talk like that?

pfffft.

Gem, you made a post before that intent should be examined. So I am asking you, what is your intent with the content of this post?

And I enjoy waffles, maybe someday I'll be able to share the enjoyment with you. :)

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..


Does it matter? Not really. I know neither "why" nor "how" consciousness came to be. And when working with a layer of abstraction, why and how doesn't matter unless the abstraction is needing repair. I couldn't fix my car if my life depended on it, but I know how to use the car to get around. In this regard I find the zero-point of awareness, what you're referring to as a still mind, to be a very useful landmark for navigating the internal landscape.
“Zero-point of awareness” or awareness as a “zero-term”, used as a reference point seems confusing.. awareness, as the capacity to perceive or sense, has no fixed relationship or, as noted by our differing understanding, a commonly held meaning.. arbitrarily comparing awareness to the number-set where 0 is the point of origin, is confusing because they are different processes.. awareness is an organic process, counting is a contrived and arbitrary process.. as for navigating the internal landscape, which I sense is analogous to my understanding of ‘mindscape’, I find the ‘reference’ of the Void to be useful, the infinite, eternal, and the ‘unmoving background’ against which all movement is revealed.. it is liberating to let go of fixed references..


Anything being aware of itself is a logical fallacy, and yet something has to be self-aware, call it whatever you want. I call it awareness. So do many people. Many people also call it something different, mind, consciousness. That's why we have to learn each other's languaging to communicate effectively with each other.

Logic is limited as logic requires the choosing of axioms and terms which is prior to the application of logic.
I find it useful to simply look at the term, “self-aware”, and try to understand that relationship.. noting that the concepts and languaging are resident within unique individualizations, and as a descriptor “self” is commonly understood to relate to those individualizations, and.. those individualizations are aware that they are uniquely different from each other, so.. ‘self’, by applying its attribute of awareness, identifies its unique relationship with its environment, and is by definition, ‘self-aware’.. Rather than many people working to learn each others’ unique preferences of ‘languaging’, it seems more productive and prudent for many people to learn how to use the existent and very expressive language we have..

I use ‘informal logic’ as a means of minimizing ambiguities, identifying inconsistencies, and generally reducing the interference between ‘me’ and clarity.


You lost me with the part in bold. what do you mean by applied or dormant, what is blipping on and off? What is aware of the blipping?
Mind is a structure of understandings, some are beliefs, some are opinions, or experiences, or memories, or insights, or conditioning, or intuition, or genetic inclination, but those understandings exist as a unique cohesive structure of energetic vibrations that represent the sum of an individual’s existence, or as a collective sum of some ‘group-mind’ conditions, and ultimately a Collective Whole ‘Mind’.. it is this ‘structure’ which I refer to as “blipping on and off”.. when the structure is on we have mind, awareness, consciousness, debate, conflict, AND we can have cooperation, agreement, compassion, etc.. but, it is the ‘on’ mode that needs this referencing to make sense within the ‘personal referencing system’.. in the ‘off’ mode, no mind, no “awareness”, nothing but the interactive perceiving, overlaying pure experience onto the “dormant” mind and its attribute of awareness.. ‘You’ (non-specific) are absorbing the information acquired in clarity, ‘You’ (again, non-specific) are present whether the structure is on or off..


hypnosis also reveals non-existent child abuses... (http://mentalhealth.about.com/cs/abuse/a/reliability.htm) I'm not prepared to take the output of hypnosis as something relevant beyond tuning into subconscious white-noise in the individual or mass-psyche.
Cool, my experiences with hypnosis have been remarkable, perhaps one of the most transformative events of my early years.. yes, there are some ethical issues, but.. there are undeniable revelations about the human mind that only hypnosis could reveal..


I can only speak to how things appear or seem to me. "I" seem to be looking through the mind into the world and other subjective phenomena within consciousness. The dense and heavy mind feels like an intermediary, a resistance. A foggy or groggy mind is itself muddy, however the experience of fogginess is quite clear and distinct. A clear and translucent mind does not interfere with the clarity of the awareness that is distinctly aware of the fogginess of the mind. What I am saying is that the clarity within the mind has to be judged and measured from a point which functions as an absolute frame of reference for the quality of clarity. I call that frame of reference Awareness, the Eye, which is always clear and it is the mind which is muddy.
If the mind is still, and only ‘feels’ experience and information passing between the collective whole and the individual’s relationships with Life, does ‘awareness’ exist? by awareness, I mean the conceptual discussion we are having, for the still mind, as I experience it, there is just the happening, no conceptual ‘fogginess’.. awareness feels ‘foggy’, to me, ambiguous.. perceiving, seeing, experiencing, those have clarity I feel that I understand the meaning conveyed.. but, it is likely we will simply differ, and that is not a problem for me.. our occasional discussion of this difference is a good opportunity to re-evaluate my understandings, and for others to feel their minds ‘itch’..


If there is no awareness outside of the mind, then how does the mind discern between clarity and lack of clarity? How does the mind know itself? I find the content of mind, i.e. mind-stuff, to be quite inert and unconsciousness, unaware.
I sense no ‘awareness’ outside the mind, it is a conceptual form.. what I notice is, that when there is no mind activity, just pure perception, the meaning and confusion of applying meaning arbitrarily goes away.. that it is only when mind’s ‘structure’, as discussed above, is active that ‘awareness’ is present.. there is no ‘outside of mind’, as I can reckon, because even in pure transparent stillness, the ‘experiences’ are recalled and can only be ‘made known’ by the ‘lens’ of mind showing ‘You’ what is happening.. mind stuff may be inert for you, it is not for me, it is dynamic, changing, and I am constantly discovering ever greater capacities and capabilities.. for me, consciousness, mind/intellect, and awareness are inextricably locked in a relationship where mind and awareness ‘sleep and wake’ as consciousness intends their company..



As for zero points, I think what Arive Nan has to say about it in this thread (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21899) is quite profound. Zero is not nothing, merely the balance point between 1 and -1. 0 = 1 + -1. 0 = infinity + -infinity. Zero is potential for creation. Zero surrounds everything. 5 = 0 + 5 + 0; 5 = 5 +1 -1. Zero is a blank page, an empty stage, capacity to be filled.
Leave it to a mathematician.. it’s your ‘language’.. but, I get your meaning, I just can’t make the leap from math to ‘awareness’..


I agree with the bolded that the mind has no ability to sense anything except through awareness.
That’s not exactly what I posted, see below:
awareness is no more than the mind's ability to sense its environment
There is a sensing from within, ‘feeling’ or emotion, most notably for me, is compassion.. a sensing that arises as feeling, calling out to ‘awareness’ to be noticed..

If there is mind that exists outside of awareness, we are unaware of it and by occam's razor it must be chopped from our ontology. In order for anything to survive occam's razor, we must be aware of its existence, it must have quality in our experience. It is awareness, not the mind, which enables Occam's Razor to exist as a tool and this is why I place awareness as superior, prior to the mind. The mind can only operated on the product of awareness.
Equally, ‘awareness’ does not exist in the absence of mind.. the two, awareness and mind, are not separate nor one superior to another.. awareness informs mind, mind operates awareness

I am intentionally placing the faculty of awareness outside the mind because every other faculty within the mind is dependent on awareness. I could do as you do and place awareness within the mind, But then the question arises of what exists outside of awareness but within the mind? And I have no answer, no idea, no understanding, no knowledge, no experience of it because if it does exist, I am unaware of it, *chop* there goes Occam's Razor, and everything within mind is also within awareness.
And equally, without ‘mind’ there would be no ‘intentionally placing’, or comprehension of conceptual models like ‘Occam’s Razor’.. what I find in my own experience, is that I am conscious of a great many things, I am conscious of remote villages in the Amazon Rainforests, and of writings of ancient manuscripts, but.. I am not aware of the nuances of Life in those remote villages, or of the meanings of untranslated ancient texts.. I am conscious of nearly seven billion people inhabiting this planet, but I am not aware of each one.. Consciousness is ‘That’ which is ‘aware/awake’, and it is ‘That’ is unaware/asleep.. I do not experience ‘feeling’, particularly emotional feeling, as dependent on awareness, feelings arise and simply attract awareness..

Be well..

[Gem]

Gem, you made a post before that intent should be examined. So I am asking you, what is your intent with the content of this post?

And I enjoy waffles, maybe someday I'll be able to share the enjoyment with you. :)

I intended to convey how such 'specialized language' is a contrived way of saying something in simple terms, which furthur illustrates my earlier agreement with Tzu's sentiment, and also to express how such phrasing seems insincere for its true design is make appearances of 'spiritual', which points to the underlying intent.

My questions were rhetorical.

My 'pffft' was to express how silly I think it is.

Now my intentions are clarified.

[Topology]

I intended to convey how such 'specialized language' is a contrived way of saying something in simple terms, which furthur illustrates my earlier agreement with Tzu's sentiment, and also to express how such phrasing seems insincere for its true design is make appearances of 'spiritual', which points to the underlying intent.

My questions were rhetorical.

My 'pffft' was to express how silly I think it is.

Now my intentions are clarified.

So, if I experienced your statement as a judgment, basically dismissive of how I naturally express myself, it would be in total alignment with your intent?

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

So, if I experienced your statement as a judgment, basically dismissive of how I naturally express myself, it would be in total alignment with your intent?
I am exceedingly hopeful that, although i am occasionally pushing just to see if the position is academic or authentic, it is understood that i am using this forum to scrutinize my own understandings as well as others.. and, i am also exceedingly grateful for the quality of scrutiny received.. that includes everyone that is sincerely interested in clarity.

Be well..

[hybrid]

the question (why) only comes up in unawareness...........
awesome

When one makes that mind, body, spirit connection is when the true magic begins.

awesome

[hybrid]

I noticed you edited there James after i responded ...



Just my feelings playing themselves out ... no hidden agendas or ulterior motives .... it has probably helped me to release some crazy baggage i have been lugging around for however long ... apologies if you were the catalyst there :hug3:
you did the mirror thing.
pointed out to WS as why he objects to what tzu is doing to him when the same thing was done by WS to you. (that is --- parsing terminologies)

maybe, trying to score a "touche'".

[Gem]

So, if I experienced your statement as a judgment, basically dismissive of how I naturally express myself, it would be in total alignment with your intent?

I explained my intent emphatically. I doubt people actually speak in such terminology so naturally tend not believe it is a genine expression... and what I suspect is the true design of it was also explained previously.

PS... now I recognize a lure designed to lead into a mind game.

[Topology]

Greetings..


I am exceedingly hopeful that, although i am occasionally pushing just to see if the position is academic or authentic, it is understood that i am using this forum to scrutinize my own understandings as well as others.. and, i am also exceedingly grateful for the quality of scrutiny received.. that includes everyone that is sincerely interested in clarity.

Be well..

Academic vs. Authentic. Why not both?

Similarly I am seeking to interact with people who are steeped in Life so as to deepen and enrich my own steeping.

[hybrid]

I explained my intent emphatically. I doubt people actually speak in such terminology so naturally tend not believe it is a genine expression... and what I suspect is the true design of it was also explained previously.

PS... now I recognize a lure designed to lead into a mind game.

but you must understand .. we are not in a tea party.

[sound]

you did the mirror thing.
pointed out to WS as why he objects to what tzu is doing to him when the same thing was done by WS to you. (that is parsing)

Well I am glad we have 'surparsed' all of that now lol ... garbage in, garbage out lol

[Gem]

but you must understand .. we are not in a tea party.

I didn't understand that at all.

[hybrid]

Well I am glad we have 'surparsed' all of that now lol ... garbage in, garbage out lol

mirroring is not garbage in my opinion. it's quite useful as you say as a catalyst for change.

[hybrid]

I didn't understand that at all.
every discipline has its own jargon. so why would you consider the terminologies used here are not genuine expression. ?

what is a genuine expression to you?

words used in a barber shop?
a tea party or in dinner tables?
what about used in science forums, the hall of congress or here for instance?
are they not genuine expressions becasue they are specialized words?

[Topology]

I explained my intent emphatically. I doubt people actually speak in such terminology so naturally tend not believe it is a genine expression... and what I suspect is the true design of it was also explained previously.

PS... now I recognize a lure designed to lead into a mind game.


Gem you do like to see tricks and mind games. The bold is what I am looking for, your limited experience projected out on the world demanding conformance to what you are comfortable with or expect.

I am at least one person that speaks with such terminology, authentically. And I look around this board and I see many people speaking with similar terminology, or their own, whatever languaging feels the most natural to them at the time. What I see is the whole world is exploring authentic self-expression, which in order to find that authenticity requires experimentation with expression. Language varies more than culture. If you can accept the variance in authentic culture, then why not the variance in authentic language?

If you would treat me as a foreigner or alien and get to know me without prejudgment or seeking for the opportunity to be dismissive, we would be able to have a more connected relationship to each other.

[sound]

mirroring is not garbage in my opinion. it's quite useful as you say as a catalyst for change.

No, the act itself is not garbage ... I am not sure there are too many people who are aware that is what is occurring (mirroring) while they are expressing something tho ... myself included ... comments/observations about mirroring are, more often than not, made in hindsight ...

[Gem]

every discipline has its own jargon. so why would you consider the terminologies used here are not genuine expression. ?

what is a genuine expression to you?

words used in a barber shop?
a tea party or in dinner tables?
what about used in science forums, the hall of congress or here for instance? are they not genuine expressions becasue they are specialized words?

This isn't a speciality shop. The expressions here are much like a legal letter, no one really understands it and it says very little. The lawer knows that, but understands the structure operates quite a contrived format where the truth is not as important as the impression made in open court.

I mean seriously dude... does anyone really talk like that?

[hybrid]

This isn't a speciality shop. The expressions here are much like a legal letter, no one really understands it and it says very little.
you have to speak for yourself in this one dude.

The lawer knows that, but understands the structure operates quite a contrived format where the truth is not as important as the impression made in open court.
well i'm sure no one here whose exploring their inner being would appreciate to be compared to a lawyer. hehe

I mean seriously dude... does anyone really talk like that?
look, no one is bashing you when you talk about square and circles fits together. or your fascination with sacred geometry. we communicate in ways we can. now if you want people to talk to you in a very grounded way, im sure we can all do that. you still don't dismissed us as morons yet, do you?

[Gem]

Gem you do like to see tricks and mind games. The bold is what I am looking for, your limited experience projected out on the world demanding conformance to what you are comfortable with or expect.

I am at least one person that speaks with such terminology, authentically. And I look around this board and I see many people speaking with similar terminology, or their own, whatever languaging feels the most natural to them at the time. What I see is the whole world is exploring authentic self-expression, which in order to find that authenticity requires experimentation with expression. Language varies more than culture. If you can accept the variance in authentic culture, then why not the variance in authentic language?

If you would treat me as a foreigner or alien and get to know me without prejudgment or seeking for the opportunity to be dismissive, we would be able to have a more connected relationship to each other.

Not interest in more connected relationships. I'm tired of the ****. You made up stories about me. Moke doesn't really love me. The language is not most natural, it's most unnatural.

It's all just wierd stuff... you make out so friendly, Moke makes out like he loves me, but it's all a sham, a parade, a demonstration... and look at me, I don't give a damn about people who think I'm cynical bitter etc etc etc, and as Moke who loves me so much says, "sick".

I'm just a big picture kinda guy. I don't care if people are nasty at times, but I HATE the fakeness of these spiritual facades.

[Enlightener]

This isn't a speciality shop. The expressions here are much like a legal letter, no one really understands it and it says very little. The lawer knows that, but understands the structure operates quite a contrived format where the truth is not as important as the impression made in open court.

I mean seriously dude... does anyone really talk like that?


I found Topology's remark to be very sincere. Your constant picking apart of everyone really gets on my nerves sometimes :rolleyes: