Suffering after enlightenment

[Serrao]

Do you think it's possible to return to suffering after enlightenment?

[Margief]

The way I'm feeling right now, as in go back to my old life and friends, despite all of the reasons I have come so far, yes I think it could be if you're not strong. I feel very lonely - haven't felt this way in a long time.

Why do you ask?

[NightSpirit]

Do you think its possible to reach enlightenment?

[Serrao]

Why do you ask?

I think that when you achieved enlightenment, you are much wiser and don't return to suffering easily nomore.
Just curious how others think.

[NightSpirit]

The way I'm feeling right now, as in go back to my old life and friends, despite all of the reasons I have come so far, yes I think it could be if you're not strong. I feel very lonely - haven't felt this way in a long time.

Why do you ask?

Its way easier to be the zombie....not to take responsibility for ones own actions and life. I mean this in a sincere way and am in no way having a go at you Marg.
What you're experiencing is a projection of the mind to take the path of least resistance. Yes, the warrior path is a solitary one....one gets passed that feeling eventually to realise the greater value in it.

Nothing stopping you though from going back to what you liked best if you want that. Its an open-ended path and your free will to make the choices you desire. Hope you find a peaceful course for yourself :smile:

[not human]

I heard someone say once ' Don't start a spiritual journey.....but if you have ...then you must follow it to the end.'
An American Buddhist Monk called Jack Kornfield wrote a book called " After the Ecstacy the Laundry " Life goes on.......just differently..........

[NightSpirit]

I heard someone say once ' Don't start a spiritual journey.....but if you have ...then you must follow it to the end.'
An American Buddhist Monk called Jack Kornfield wrote a book called " After the Ecstacy the Laundry " Life goes on.......just differently..........

I really like the buddhist philosophies nh...they mostly resonate with me.

[Margief]

I am a warrior...just having a down evening.

Am I enlightened...I'm something different than what I was. My true self.

[Margief]

Its way easier to be the zombie....not to take responsibility for ones own actions and life. I mean this in a sincere way and am in no way having a go at you Marg.
What you're experiencing is a projection of the mind to take the path of least resistance. Yes, the warrior path is a solitary one....one gets passed that feeling eventually to realise the greater value in it.

Nothing stopping you though from going back to what you liked best if you want that. Its an open-ended path and your free will to make the choices you desire. Hope you find a peaceful course for yourself :smile:

No offence taken whatsoever! Appreciation.

[NightSpirit]

I am a warrior...just having a down evening.

Am I enlightened...I'm something different than what I was. My true self.

yes, and we all have too many of those lol, yet ive found for myself that these moments were the most valuable to me...the greatest teachers. As much as i cursed them, I also blessed them later down the track. my biggest learning curbs indeed.

So have your down moments and remember always what you just told me..."I am a warrior". :smile:

[Sarian]

I believe you can if you get back into your mind state....I'm not good at explaining things, but from what I've read and own experiences... I'm a long way off to being 'enlightened', but I've experienced things when I stop listening to my mind, hearing the mind chatter which is hard to stop. The analyzing and re-analyzing of things, letting skepticism take hold even when I know my own experience to be true...letting emotions get in the way. It's easy for me, at the place I am at still, to 'suffer'. Obviously, I'm just on the tip of my journey. Seems I've been here forever, but yet I know I'm moving forward, even if ever so slowly and with setback.

[moke64916]

Do you think it's possible to return to suffering after enlightenment?
Yes, if one become unconscious with thoughts, words, and actions.

[BlueSky]

Do you think it's possible to return to suffering after enlightenment?

Assuming there is such a thing as enlightenment are you asking if after such an event would one not be affected by reality?
Death of a loved one, sickness, the physical limitations of getting older, etc?

If so, why would one want such a thing Serrao?

I say, be true to yourself, if there is suffering, then suffer with it. If there is joy, then be joyful.
Don't listen to what others say they experience and expect that you will expereince the same.
The danger of that is that enlightenment is only a figment of their imagination and if so, you will be caught up in their imagination instead of being real.
Blessings, James

[Internal Queries]

what kind of suffering does being "enlightened" vanish or avoid? i'm asking because i'm not "enlightened" and so i take it for granted that being a human manifesting physically on planet Earth entails some discomfort. i mean, Jesus was "enlightened" and he sure didn't get free of suffering while he was acting as human. (if you put any credence in his story story anyway.)

[sound]

After enlightenment almost hints at something which occurs, and is then 'finished' with ... if we continue to experience suffering have we actually experienced enlightenment, which is commonly thought to be 'all encompassing'?

[BlueSky]

what kind of suffering does being "enlightened" vanish or avoid? i'm asking because i'm not "enlightened" and so i take it for granted that being a human manifesting physically on planet Earth entails some discomfort. i mean, Jesus was "enlightened" and he sure didn't get free of suffering while he was acting as human. (if you put any credence in his story story anyway.)

I was esentially asking the same thing IQ. I can tell you that the answer you might get from many is "the choice to not see suffering as suffering is the end of suffering"

I've heard it before and even if it works, it just isn't how I would want to live my life.

James

[Sarian]

I would like an end to it (suffering), but while some forms of suffering can't be helped, but I realize that so often that I can be my own worst enemy with thoughts that nag and drag me down. It can be like a daily beating, if I can get that **** to stop, that would be great.

[Internal Queries]

I was esentially asking the same thing IQ. I can tell you that the answer you might get from many is "the choice to not see suffering as suffering is the end of suffering"

I've heard it before and even if it works, it just isn't how I would want to live my life.

James


ah! so "enlightenment" is a "pain into pleasure" endeavor? that's almost kinky. lol

[astarxy]

the hardcore suffering usually leads us to awakening, and when you're there, when you walked that road, you're never experiencing that again... because you go straight forward...

the ecstasy of awakening's freedom, our natural state, is just too strong...
if you return backwards, then you haven't been awakening...

or at least that's what i think.

be well ;)

[BlueSky]

I would like an end to it (suffering), but while some forms of suffering can't be helped, but I realize that so often that I can be my own worst enemy with thoughts that nag and drag me down. It can be like a daily beating, if I can get that **** to stop, that would be great.

You can Sarian. And you do so by embracing it and recognizing it as it arises and growing from it (seeing its source). In fact I can recall even inviting the oppportunity to suffer a particular suffering just so that I could practice observing it as opposed to being engulfed by it. It worked!
We can also simply accept at times that its ok to suffer as in in the death of a loved one.
This all, however, has nothing to do with enlightenment or any such word.
It has to do with life and in many cases our subconscious.
James

[BlueSky]

ah! so "enlightenment" is a "pain into pleasure" endeavor? that's almost kinky. lol

I'm suddenly seeing whips and chains in your houshold...........lol :smile:

[Internal Queries]

I'm suddenly seeing whips and chains in your houshold...........lol :smile:


well, i was raised Catholic. hehehe! :wink:

[BlueSky]

well, i was raised Catholic. hehehe! :wink:

LOL........................me too!

I'm all Italian, I had no choice as far as I knew!

[Internal Queries]

LOL........................me too!

I'm all Italian, I had no choice as far as I knew!


i'm not Italian but i wasn't given any choice either. all those gory portrayals of Jesus, saints and martyres transcending pain into passion made a huge impression on me. deeply conditioned into my psyche is the desire "to serve "God"" and when one serves "God" one must expect to suffer passionately. with a little slap i was confirmed as a "soldier of God", martyrdom as a desirable goal. passion and pain intermixed. symbolic of how close the centers for violence and sex reside in the brain. whatta bloody mess the Catholics made of my psyche. LOL it's okay though. comedy springs out of pain as well, though usually it's someone else's pain that instigates the laughter.

[BlueSky]

i'm not Italian but i wasn't given any choice either. all those gory portrayals of Jesus, saints and martyres transcending pain into passion made a huge impression on me. deeply conditioned into my psyche is the desire "to serve "God"" and when one serves "God" one must expect to suffer passionately. with a little slap i was confirmed as a "soldier of God", martyrdom as desirable goal. passion and pain intermixed. symbolic of how close the centers for violence and sex reside in the brain. whatta bloody mess the Catholics made of my psyche. LOL it's okay though. comedy springs out of pain as well, though usually it's someone else's pain that instigates the laughter.

I hear ya!

[SerpentQueen]

I have no clue if I am enlightened (how would you know?). But I can say since all of this started, since the time I woke up, there has been suffering but it's become easier and easier to bear. At this stage, I would say that yes there is suffering but that you don't allow it to affect you for long, and it quickly disappears because you detach and don't cling to it. It's the clinging that creates the suffering.

This includes actual physical suffering. There is a fair amount of that which comes along with the process (body aches and pains). However, in recent years, I've learned that even those are possible to detach from. In past year, I've had some minor medical procedures that were supposed to hurt (a lot), and I was amazed that they didn't, really. Sure, maybe for a minute but then it was gone and forgotten. I even had major dental work recently without any Novocaine. Didn't need it. This is teaching me, as I experiment, that even physical pain is a product of the mind.

I have also had my best friend move away, and a very close friend die. I've had family members face cancer. I've lost my job. Been threatened with losing it again. Been faced with betrayal by someone I cared about. On and on....

I can't say I don't hurt at all - I do feel the pain but it's the clinging that causes the hurt to become suffering and for it to go on and on. When you can detach, when you can go back into your neutral observer space, the negative feelings come, and then go. Like leaves floating on the water.

I still feel others' suffering. I feel compassion. But, I don't allow myself to take on their suffering as my own.

[BlueSky]

I have no clue if I am enlightened (how would you know?). But I can say since all of this started, since the time I woke up, there has been suffering but it's become easier and easier to bear. At this stage, I would say that yes there is suffering but that you don't allow it to affect you for long, and it quickly disappears because you detach and don't cling to it. It's the clinging that creates the suffering.

This includes actual physical suffering. There is a fair amount of that which comes along with the process (body aches and pains). However, in recent years, I've learned that even those are possible to detach from. In past year, I've had some minor medical procedures that were supposed to hurt (a lot), and I was amazed that they didn't, really. Sure, maybe for a minute but then it was gone and forgotten. I even had major dental work recently without any Novocaine. Didn't need it. This is teaching me, as I experiment, that even physical pain is a product of the mind.

I have also had my best friend move away, and a very close friend die. I've had family members face cancer. I've lost my job. Been threatened with losing it again. Been faced with betrayal by someone I cared about. On and on....

I can't say I don't hurt at all - I do feel the pain but it's the clinging that causes the hurt to become suffering and for it to go on and on. When you can detach, when you can go back into your neutral observer space, the negative feelings come, and then go. Like leaves floating on the water.

I still feel others' suffering. I feel compassion. But, I don't allow myself to take on their suffering as my own.

I really like how you differientiated between pain and suffering. I found that very helpful. It's painful to lose someone but it's suffering to not move on when its time.
Ii think that is what you are saying. It is what i heard.....lol :smile:
Nice post
James

[SerpentQueen]

I really like how you differientiated between pain and suffering. I found that very helpful. It's painful to lose someone but it's suffering to not move on when its time.
Ii think that is what you are saying. It is what i heard.....lol :smile:
Nice post
James

Yes, exactly. And, there is even some pain that can be pleasurable, in its own way. I know there are certain situations I deliberately cling to because I enjoy the pain. In a weird way it makes me feel alive. But while yes I might feel pain over these situations, I'm not suffering. No, the pain is too delicious.

There's this eyes-wide-openess where you see that you invite what you invite into your life for a reason and a purpose.

Simple analogy: running a marathon. It is painful. But the reward at the end -- crossing that finish line, the endorphin rush -- is worth the pain so you embrace the pain. That's not the same as suffering.

[Internal Queries]

yea cool! if my body is hurting or some mental/emotional trauma is causing me distress "I" stand back from the pain and say to my Self "my my! how beautifully she suffers." the beauty of Renaisance art gave me that kind of appreciation.

LOL! oh "God"! too funny!

[BlueSky]

Yes, exactly. And, there is even some pain that can be pleasurable, in its own way. I know there are certain situations I deliberately cling to because I enjoy the pain. In a weird way it makes me feel alive. But while yes I might feel pain over these situations, I'm not suffering. No, the pain is too delicious.

There's this eyes-wide-openess where you see that you invite what you invite into your life for a reason and a purpose.

Simple analogy: running a marathon. It is painful. But the reward at the end -- crossing that finish line, the endorphin rush -- is worth the pain so you embrace the pain. That's not the same as suffering.

IQ has some extra whips and chains if you need them...........lol :smile:

[Internal Queries]

IQ has some extra whips and chains if you need them...........lol :smile:


and i got some 4x6s and some nice big nails if you're up for some REAL passion. LOL!

[Topology]

Choosing to run a marathon may not induce suffering, but I had to suffer through that cliche example.... :D

[moke64916]

Like I said before. The key to staying enlightened is to stay present. That simple. Yet people look over the simple truth and create more noise, when the answer has already been said. Peace.

[Squatchit]

the answer has already been said.

moke has spoke. End of thread. :tongue:

[Topology]

Yes I wonder how long before Moke starts his own religion. :)

[moke64916]

Truly, I am going to start way to teach psychology that has not been done yet. I've already Made a jounal With the details. I'll patent it with a big business. Franchise it. Spread it throughout the whole world. Be a motivational speaker as well. That's my plans. I know it will work too. Before you know it people will be buying shares on wall street for my company. When I have an idea. I make it happen. You'll believe it when you here me say mole on TV. I'll say,"whats up topology! What about those ego blood sucking vampires, lol. :)"

[BlueSky]

"So shall it be written, so shall it be done"

I use to love when Yule Brenner said that in Moses!

[BlueSky]

and i got some 4x6s and some nice big nails if you're up for some REAL passion. LOL!

I bet you have a headband made of thorns too...........lol

[SerpentQueen]

Choosing to run a marathon may not induce suffering, but I had to suffer through that cliche example.... :D


:tongue:

I could've used a different analogy... but I figured I'd keep it generic and not personal.

:icon_eek:

[SerpentQueen]

Like I said before. The key to staying enlightened is to stay present. That simple. Yet people look over the simple truth and create more noise, when the answer has already been said. Peace.

I used to think that too, except then I realized there is no such thing as the "present" -- the brain is incapable of living in the present. We're constantly being fed back a recording, one that puts all 5 senses together for us so it makes sense. You can get super close, but that's about it.

Also, I personally appreciate the sensation of anticipation. It's delicious. And sometimes nostalgia can also be delicious. Like when the smell of a certain cologne launches you right back to the past, and a beautiful memory of a past love.... that can be very sweet and I don't think I'd want to live in a world without those moments.

So, I don't reject memories of the past or daydreams about the future. They have their place. Again, it's when you cling too much, that you create the suffering.

[Lisa]

"So shall it be written, so shall it be done"

I use to love when Yule Brenner said that in Moses!

In The Ten Commandments. He played Ramses- who didn't fare too well!

[Internal Queries]

I bet you have a headband made of thorns too...........lol


well, no but if the need arises we have these really nasty thorny vines around here so a spikey headband could easily be fashioned in no time.

now where did i put that "Spear of Destiny"? it's probably waaaaay in the back of the closet behind the Christmas ornaments. :D

[BlueSky]

I used to think that too, except then I realized there is no such thing as the "present" -- the brain is incapable of living in the present. We're constantly being fed back a recording, one that puts all 5 senses together for us so it makes sense. You can get super close, but that's about it.

Also, I personally appreciate the sensation of anticipation. It's delicious. And sometimes nostalgia can also be delicious. Like when the smell of a certain cologne launches you right back to the past, and a beautiful memory of a past love.... that can be very sweet and I don't think I'd want to live in a world without those moments.

So, I don't reject memories of the past or daydreams about the future. They have their place. Again, it's when you cling too much, that you create the suffering.

I agree, I cannot find the present. It is always changing and is effected by how I see it. I can be present in it as much as possible but there is no present moment that one can view or experience.
There is also no way of me forgetting the past. A virgin cannot go back. Therefore there is no real being present unaffected by the past.
There is also no way for me to not have beliefs and hopes and dreams. Even if i try to convince myself otherwise. Therefore there is no real being present unaffected by the hopes of a future.
There is being though and it looks like "This".
James

[moke64916]

There is such a thing as staying present. Read my thread "truth about no-mind" under spirituality.

[BlueSky]

well, no but if the need arises we have these really nasty thorny vines around here so a spikey headband could easily be fashioned in no time.

now where did i put that "Spear of Destiny"? it's probably waaaaay in the back of the closet behind the Christmas ornaments. :D

LOL.............

[Internal Queries]

presently i'm procrastinating doing my chores by remaining present on this message board. lol

[BlueSky]

In The Ten Commandments. He played Ramses- who didn't fare too well!

yeah, thats the movie I am talking about. What an actor! Great movie.
Love the change in appearance when Moses came down off the mountain!
Love the scene where the woman with leoprasy were cured.

[BlueSky]

presently i'm procrastinating doing my chores by remaining present on this message board. lol

My point exactly.............you can't be fully present here knowing that you have chores to do.
You can't forget the past or ignore your hopes for the future. It all affects how you are NOW.
It's all good...........:smile:

[BlueSky]

Gotta go all.............maybe I'll see you all this weekend but if not I hope you all have a great weekend!
Blessings, James

[Internal Queries]

see ya, James! have a good one! **waves**

[Sarian]

You can Sarian. And you do so by embracing it and recognizing it as it arises and growing from it (seeing its source). In fact I can recall even inviting the oppportunity to suffer a particular suffering just so that I could practice observing it as opposed to being engulfed by it. It worked!
We can also simply accept at times that its ok to suffer as in in the death of a loved one.
This all, however, has nothing to do with enlightenment or any such word.
It has to do with life and in many cases our subconscious.
James
I have tried that a time or two. If I step outside of it and look at it, it is odd how it changes and isn't so personal. I tried to get a friend to experience. My problem is distraction. I distract too easily it seems. I need to make time every day and more than once a day to meditate or work on various techniques I read about.

[moke64916]

Here's a test to see how present you are.

Say to yourself, "I wonder what my next thought will be.

Focus hard on that.

You probably realized that you weren't thinking. You were present. As soon as you recieved a thought you lost your focus.

What you guys have wrong, is that you think if your present you wont receive thoughts. False. It just means your thoughts will occur with grace. You wont be thinking as often. When you do think, your thoughts are beautiful. If you guys don't think you can stay present, then good luck finding enlightenment. It's wonderful where I am at. Come join me.

[Internal Queries]

i've discovered that if i'm enough pain the distancing happens automatically, like my Id steps away from the situation ... a temporary death.

[Sarian]

presently i'm procrastinating doing my chores by remaining present on this message board. lol
I've been doing that a lot these last couple days. I think it's another form of distraction for me since I have so much to do and not enough time to do it, nor do I really want to do much of what I have too....:redface: Plus school starts on August 15 and while I'm excited and thankful to have gotten accepted, the dreaded fear in me keeps rearing its ugly head, so I fear things I shouldn't, I feel sad that my kids won't see me much (I work part time and will have evening classes and clinicals and while this semester I'll get home around 10, next semester will be longer and I won't get home until midnight...so I fret about when will I get my homework done even, or care plans... so yeah...I'm escaping here...

The good thing is I forget about the divorce...the bad thing...I forget about the divorce and I've got to get that sped along so I can finally move on with my life in that regard too.

And can you tell I babble far too much.... my nerves are shot.

[Sarian]

Here's a test to see how present you are.

Say to yourself, "I wonder what my next thought will be.

Focus hard on that.

You probably realized that you weren't thinking. You were present. As soon as you recieved a thought you lost your focus.

What you guys have wrong, is that you think if your present you wont receive thoughts. False. It just means your thoughts will occur with grace. You wont be thinking as often. When you do think, your thoughts are beautiful. If you guys don't think you can stay present, then good luck finding enlightenment. It's wonderful where I am at. Come join me.
I'm so not present, I don't know which end is up. I find myself reading and re-reading because I feel like I have a cinder block in place of a brain lately. I'd love to join you...

In re-reading again what you wrote,...I found that my next thought was "What else can you think, write or say, Sarian that can top the assinine thing you previously said..." sigh...

[SerpentQueen]

Here's a test to see how present you are.

Say to yourself, "I wonder what my next thought will be.

Focus hard on that.

You probably realized that you weren't thinking. You were present. As soon as you recieved a thought you lost your focus.

What you guys have wrong, is that you think if your present you wont receive thoughts. False. It just means your thoughts will occur with grace. You wont be thinking as often. When you do think, your thoughts are beautiful. If you guys don't think you can stay present, then good luck finding enlightenment. It's wonderful where I am at. Come join me.

Oh, I can be present that way, if that is what you are talking about. My husband has been an excellent teacher these past 10 years. He has this uncanny ability to get me out of my own belly button gazing, and back into the "present" (the way you are defining it).

I guess I am thinking of something different. I'm talking about that experience when all sensory information gets decoupled. I've had that happen but it tends to be fleeting and not sustainable. That's what I mean when I say "ISness."

Actually when it hasn't been fleeting, you question your sanity, you get all dizzy, and it becomes kind of hard to navigate in this 3D world.

I've always imagined it must be just like being on acid, though I have never tried that. The pics people draw on acid seem sort of like it (though that is visual only and has nothing to do with the other senses).

[arive nan]

If you guys don't think you can stay present, then good luck finding enlightenment. It's wonderful where I am at.

There are many very different ideas of what enlightenment is and how to achieve it. And the 'enlightened' people all insist that theirs is the only right one and that if someone says that something different is enlightenment they are wrong and unenlightened. I see 'enlightened' people slip into this kind of response a lot. There's a formula for it. "If you want to be enlightened like me, do this: __ . Believe this: ___ . This is what enlightenment is and that's that. Anything else is just wrong." and the blanks are filled in with completely different content depending on who is saying it. They're all certain that they are enlightened and I'm sure most of them really do feel wonderful where they are but they have very different ideas of what enlightenment is and how to get there.

And I've done myself in the past. I have been in a state of no-suffering that lasted long enough for me to be convinced that I was enlightened and that the way I found enlightenment is the way to find it and that the enlightenment I found is the authoritative enlightenment. I saw other people as unconscious if they didn't see things the same way as me. I was wrong. It took a lot of pain to learn that lesson, but I'm glad I did because while in that state of mind I was blinded to the fact that nobody really has the on and only authoritative definition of enlightenment or how to get there. So while believing that there is one true enlightenment and one way to get there I was in ignorance, I was in the dark about this, and therefore unenlightened.

This is a large part of the reason why I say there are no enlightened people. People don't have to get to where you are specifically to find peace and relief from suffering, and they don't have to follow the same method you use. Sure, maybe if they try to do what you tell them it will work for them, but maybe it won't. Your present moment method has never worked for me, but other methods have worked for me to get me to a wonderful place of no suffering. I don't stay there. I go through more pain again. I no longer have the goal of staying there indefinitely.

I used to believe that escaping suffering was the whole point of spiritual development and considered myself a failure because I felt pain and suffering again. But if I had never gotten out of that wonderful place after the first time I would have missed out on so much learning. I would have remained separated from people with the arrogant mindset that I am enlightened and they are not, remained blind to the fact that they are all conscious beings. Now I am glad that I felt pain again, suffered again, and I am willing to go through all the pain and suffering that the future has in store for me. When I return to that blissful state in which I feel an unfathomable amount of love throughout the universe and it feels certain that I will never suffer again, I remind myself that it will pass, that I am not enlightened and other people are where they need to be and will go where they need to go just like I will even if we go different places.

[moke64916]

Has anything occurred outside the now? No. Did I ever say my way was the only way? No.

[Moonglow]

Hello,

Going through some of this discussion.

Enlightenment-What is it? Is it having comfort with in oneself or is it paying attention to how one is or wants to be? Or is just trusting in ones own divinity (for lack of another word)?

It seems there is quite a bit of focus on this, IMO. Still here we all are and life still presents what it will. Some joyful, others not. It is the human experience, is it not?

So to me it is not about reaching some mountain top, for even if one does, then what? Doesn't one see out and see other views and valleys/mountains to explore? Life still continues.

Now I am just a guy living a life and perhaps one who at times ponders too much on this, I don't know.

But it sounds like life to me, with its spectrum of experiences, emotions, exploring, storms and calm. I would say do the best one can do to get through it and realize there is support. To me it is not about reaching anything, just having the courage to do what needs to be done at the moment.

One has more potential then one may accept or realize.

Peace

[moke64916]

Pure love, deep peace, joy, bliss. All Knowing. Truths just get deeper and deeper as time goes on. Total freedom. Freedom to choose how you choose to feel at any given moment. Grace takes over your life.

[moke64916]

The love is so intense where I am at. I found enlightenment but I suffered for 6 years before I found the light. I didn't read a spiritual book or anything. It just happened. I had a spiritual awakening, and the love changed my life. It was either evolve or die. But I went through a lot of suffering before I became enlightened.

[arive nan]

Has anything occurred outside the now? No. Did I ever say my way was the only way? No.

You have said to someone who has felt an overwhelming sense of peace and love that his experience was fake because he did not get there the same way you did. You have said to someone who feels just as certain as you do that he is enlightened and who has led a few others to the same conclusion the same way that he does not sound enlightening. Because it is not the same enlightenment as yours or the same method. From his point of view, you are the one who is not enlightened like he is because you do not agree with him. For all we know, he could be in a wonderful place where he feels that he is no longer suffering. What we can know for sure is that both of you feel convinced that you are enlightened and you two do not agree with each other. I saw one of his potential converts report having an incredibly blissful experience only to be told by him that the bliss means that it was not enlightenment. I've done similar things to this long ago and now I feel like I was such an idiot for that. There are so many problems like this surrounding the concept of enlightenment and seeing them for the problems that they are convinces me that nobody is an enlightened person.

[psychoslice]

Yes there is suffering after so called Enlightenment, but the suffering isn't owned, it belongs to the mind body organism, you no longer make a story out of the suffering, its felt at the time and dealt with at the time, it is no longer dragged through your life as negative baggage.

[moke64916]

You are putting words in my mouth. Did I say any of that.

[moke64916]

Drawing judgment on another's behalf is immature behavior. I rest with that.

[WmBuzz71]

There's always suffering in life, it's a learning process to get to where we are at today. The suffering, comes in different severity's depending on the one's Karma.

I also think everyone is enlightened, it's just people don't recognize the signs, and there are many of them, there intuition, music, nature, communication, especially with people..... the list goes on.

We don't need one teacher as there is many of them, and our #1 teacher is what lies in our hearts & souls.

Living in the now moment 24/7, would be possible to achieve if you can get your Karma up into Angelic status. The human body wouldn't survive the Karmic High. It's about total surrendering, I have at least 1-3 moments a day. Once i experience those moment, it totally euphoric, very exciting!

We all have different life experiences, that was made purposely for each individual. We are meant to discover ourselves and improve ourselves from previous lives. Not about only improving ourselves, but expanding our bubble, to improve others as well. No change, no action, no growing. We can't believe in some mystical power to achieve what we are suppose to be and do all the dirty work for us. We gotta be ourselves, and listen to that heart of ours.

Well that's some of my thoughts.

I love diversity.

And some rules are meant to be broken even though it's tough on the consciousness, it's meant to be! as long it's not serious. So don't be scared and show some spit in your community. People love attitude, but been noticing females relate to me more than the guys, when I go out and communicate.

[not human]

I saw a late night fitness guru flogging a dietary supplement recently he said that everybody has abs.......they are just covered in fat ..I dunno ....just thought I'd share......I'm leaving now.....

[Docha]

My fat makes me real....

I do apologize I couldn't resist...

[not human]

....real cuddly ...come here & give us a hug >0<

[Docha]

Lol :hug2:

I was actually going to read the thread but the last post was just too good to pasd up. I need to stop laughing first...

[NightSpirit]

I agree, I cannot find the present. It is always changing and is effected by how I see it. I can be present in it as much as possible but there is no present moment that one can view or experience.
There is also no way of me forgetting the past. A virgin cannot go back. Therefore there is no real being present unaffected by the past.
There is also no way for me to not have beliefs and hopes and dreams. Even if i try to convince myself otherwise. Therefore there is no real being present unaffected by the hopes of a future.
There is being though and it looks like "This".
James

You know why that happens WS? Because majority of things we experience in the present is localised through the brain's ability to draw upon the experience and compare & log it via its capability to compare it to past experiences...pheww! Did you get all that? Lol

(further explanation give, if required) :D

[BlueSky]

Sounds good NS but what I really do know is that I can never look at a tree the way my grandson does again................we can never be present in such a way and that is what the presence promoters are selling.

[NightSpirit]

I've been doing that a lot these last couple days. I think it's another form of distraction for me since I have so much to do and not enough time to do it, nor do I really want to do much of what I have too....:redface: Plus school starts on August 15 and while I'm excited and thankful to have gotten accepted, the dreaded fear in me keeps rearing its ugly head, so I fear things I shouldn't, I feel sad that my kids won't see me much (I work part time and will have evening classes and clinicals and while this semester I'll get home around 10, next semester will be longer and I won't get home until midnight...so I fret about when will I get my homework done even, or care plans... so yeah...I'm escaping here...

The good thing is I forget about the divorce...the bad thing...I forget about the divorce and I've got to get that sped along so I can finally move on with my life in that regard too.

And can you tell I babble far too much.... my nerves are shot.

The brain gets stressed out and overloaded and then we escape..shut down..because it all becomes too overwhelming. Ive tried all sorts of avenues in these times....productive time-management lists, step-by-step plans, run away lol...in the end i inevitably realise none of it has gone away and i still have to face it all or just die (easy way out hehe).(joke)...

We each have our own coping mechanisms and you will find what works for you best. For me i found the step plan worked best because I used to be a bad procrastinator a long time ago....still have shreds of it....so I decided being kind to myself was the only way i would respond. Baby steps! love em! I'd plan my day. little baby steps which i thought in my mind...get with it girl, these are stupidly simple and lazy. But it worked. Eventually the pile began to disintergrate and suddenly i found that long-awaited breathing space. Anyways, this is getting long-winded.

Cheers

[NightSpirit]

Sounds good NS but what I really do know is that I can never look at a tree the way my grandson does again................we can never be present in such a way and that is what the presence promoters are selling.

no we can't WS, but dont flog yourself for it. Its all part of the deal of growing up. As our experiences grow, so does our innocense depart. I guess we just have to live with it and keep having those experiences through the eyes of babes.

[raradolly]

What I personally believe might differ a lot, so I hope I don't offend here.

I generally regard myself as an enlightened soul (or could've potentially been one), I am fully capable of realizing many concepts spiritually, but I do not have an interest in them. I wish to retain my personality and patterns at any cost. I like individuality in myself, and in others, To me, loving unconditionally must include the negative, must include suffering, to love all, is to love all, it is not to become one. There is much beauty in the learning to understand the negative and that it belongs with the positive. I cannot see myself abandoning these ideas because this is part of what I love about nature, people, and the universe.

[Xan]

Do you think it's possible to return to suffering after enlightenment?
I've known people who have... because they didn't face and surrender the negative patterns suppressed in their minds.
Despite knowing the truth of themselves they got dragged down again into ego-suffering,
which is not just having difficulties in life but reacting to them from the lower, conflicted mind.


Xan

[Xan]

Am I enlightened... I'm something different than what I was. My true self.

Nicely said, Margief.


Xan

[SerpentQueen]

Pure love, deep peace, joy, bliss. All Knowing. Truths just get deeper and deeper as time goes on. Total freedom. Freedom to choose how you choose to feel at any given moment. Grace takes over your life.

Yes, yes. But have you bent the fabric of time yet? That's when it gets cool.

Still working on bending space... I admit I'm a little intimidated by that part. But I get easily sick on roller coasters.

[arive nan]

Did I say any of that.

I am in the process of finding out about as many different definitions of enlightenment, methods of getting there, and interpretations of experiences from as many different people as I can. So I bookmark stuff about it. Overall, it's all a big mess of inconsistencies.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19247
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19026&page=196

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19026&page=165

This is where the other thing I mentioned comes from: http://www.ruthlesstruth.com/arena/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1322

I study enlightenments and spiritual experiences. Or what people believe are enlightenments. Some of them are paths I would never want to go down. Sometimes when I see another person join a certain path and exuberantly declare that they now are enlightened I cringe because of the nature of that path. But they don't feel the same way. They feel enlightened, liberated. And they believe that anyone who does it any other way is not enlightened. Two people who feel enlightened and liberated yet who have completely different ideas of what enlightenment is might both say that anyone who has a different idea of what enlightenment is is not enlightened. They both feel equally certain of this.

And, yes, I see many of them later suffer again and experience confusion and doubt. It can happen with every kind of supposed enlightenment, however it was reached. I think people could benefit from knowing about these issues. Because it seems like the general population has this notion that enlightenment is this one definitive thing, and that there ought to be one definition of it that is right while any other must be incorrect, and that it is a destination that people stay at once they get there, and that there are enlightened people and they will agree with each other about what that means... but there is evidence that none of these things are really the case. They are misconceptions, and like any misconception they can prevent people from finding the truth.

[NightSpirit]

arive nan...this is my concept of the idea of enlightenment :smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KXidr0z1RY

when the seeker finds enlightenment he will know that he was already there ....

[Topology]

But it's not just an "oh, I'm already there." It's an "oooooOOOOOOHHHHHhhhh *smacks hand to forehead*, great now I've got to go re-examine all of my assumptions and pre-conceptions now that I see clearly..."

[arive nan]

arive nan...this is my concept of the idea of enlightenment :smile:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4KXidr0z1RY (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatc h%3Fv%3D4KXidr0z1RY)

when the seeker finds enlightenment he will know that he was already there ....

Lol, I love this video.

[NightSpirit]

LOL..topology

Arive nan...yep its really as top says *smack on the forehead* oooooohhhhhh

[arive nan]

But after having the "oh, duh" moment and re-examining all of ones previous assumptions, some time later some reach yet another awakening and have to repeat the process. Perhaps more than once. Each time it can feel like "of course, why didn't I see this before", but each time they find that the previous revelation has to be re-examined. It happens.

[NightSpirit]

arive ...then could the 1st have been an awakening? I'm not sure there are multiple awakenings.

[Topology]

There are multiple realizations, or Satori, which you have to re-evaluate after but as far as I can tell there is a final absolute experience, the unraveling of consciousness to see what is behind it. All other events are events within consciousness.

[arive nan]

In all my research I have not been able to pinpoint an awakening that could be the final absolute experience. Different people will even reach the same set of awakenings in different orders and have different opinions on which one is truer. For example, there is the oneness experience of overwhelming love and there is the void. Some people have had both. Some of them experience oneness before void. Some experience void before oneness. Some decide that void is closer to truth than oneness. Some decide that they didn't like the void and regard it as a hellish place and conclude that it is an illusion while oneness is the truth. They are both awakenings. They both change the way people see things. But there's no definitive answer for which is truer or even whether either are true.

[Topology]

If you're researching, here's a data point. http://tatfoundation.org/bio.htm Come across him yet?

It would seem that the ending of experience would be more fundamental than any and every experience. The Void is not the end of experience.

This isn't something you can just study in others, you have to study it within yourself. There is an absolute frame of reference which recontextualizes our understanding of all experience. Or at least that is what I've found within myself.

[3dnow]

For me enlightenment (or whatever you call it) is total self-forgiveness knowing that you were sleeping (.i.e. you are not your mind). When we achieve this I don't think we can return suffering.

Then starts another work, which consists of questioning... because we still don't know.

3dnow

[arive nan]

If you're researching, here's a data point. http://tatfoundation.org/bio.htm (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Ftatfoundation.org%2Fbi o.htm) Come across him yet?

I had not found him yet. Thank you for telling me.

Some describe the void as a non-experience, for lack of better terms. I haven't 'been to' the void yet, but I have experienced the oneness enough to know it is different from how people describe the void. If anyone has had a single fundamental experience that would be a definitive final awakening for anyone who has it, I haven't come across evidence of that. Each kind of awakening is refuted by some as less awakened than other awakenings (in their belief/experience). This all started with studying my own experiences. But if I limit myself to that I would have a very limited knowledge. Even if I experienced or non-experienced them all, I'd still be in the dark if I didn't know that while each one is considered by some to be the absolute truth others believe that same one is not as fundamental as something else.

[Topology]

AN,

What others say is the truth doesn't matter. What matters is your own understanding. By what means are you searching for and exploring discovery of truth for yourself?

[andrew g]

I find that I can drop into the void or the absolute very easily these days if I want to. For me its just a case of allowing myself to get out of the way fully, or allowing myself to just....disappear. Its a coming to a complete rest. But I find the world doesnt support this state for very long even though its kinda nice. If I want to function in some way I have to come back a bit. If I want to use my intellect at all I have to come back a bit. In order to write this message I have to come back a bit! I cant use my mind and fully reside in that state.

I like this from Nisargadatta. He talks about different stages of the process, and this is an example. I like the way he talks of being at the borderline.

''At present, ‘I am’ is in the beingness state. But when I do not have the knowingness of the ‘I am’ illusion, then the ‘Poornabrahman’ or ‘Parabrahman’ state prevails. In the absence of the touch of ‘I amness’ I am the total complete, ‘Poornabrahman’ state, the permanent state. The borderline of beingness and non-beingness is intellect-boggling, because the intellect subsides at that precise location. This borderline is the ‘maha-yoga’. You must be at that borderline, that ‘maha-yoga’ state’.''

[andrew g]

Sometimes I think 'Love' brings us back from where we might ideally like to be. If I resided in that absolute state all the time I wouldnt be able to look after the basic needs of those that I love. For me its an interesting issue and perhaps relevant because I think Love sometimes can take us back into a degree of suffering. In the end, I think we find that it is in our highest interests to follow the path of Love even when it hurts a bit. Ultimately I see the key to happiness as manifesting a path of love which is easy and doesnt take us into suffering!

[arive nan]

Learning about the experiences others have does matter. Because when two people feel that they have found the one and only true enlightenment, and they both believe that the other is not enlightened, this means something. It means that it is not wise to claim, as many do, that what you have discovered is the real spiritual truth while anything else is false even though some have found different things to feel true. It means that what people discover for themselves in ignorance of the wide variety of other things that other people can discover could trap them in what they think the truth is even if it is not really an absolute truth and blind them to what the truth really is without them ever realizing that they are trapped and blinded. It can help people avoid going down the path of arrogance, telling people that they are unconscious or their experiences are fake. After seeing enough examples of that from enough different people with different views on enlightenment I realized I don't want to be like that and I'm glad I observed enough people to realize that instead of becoming like that. When I see it, I often wish I could show each person all the different kinds of people with different beliefs about the truth who act like that so they could hopefully see it for what it is.

Learning about what experiences others have had is also a way to find out how to have more experiences for yourself. If you can learn how they see things and manage to see things the same way you can maybe have the same experience and see what it is like to compare and contrast.

[Topology]

Andrew, Yes, It is Love that brings us back.

[Topology]

Learning about the experiences others have does matter. Because when two people feel that they have found the one and only true enlightenment, and they both believe that the other is not enlightened, this means something. It means that it is not wise to claim, as many do, that what you have discovered is the real spiritual truth while anything else is false even though some have found different things to feel true. It means that what people discover for themselves in ignorance of the wide variety of other things that other people can discover could trap them in what they think the truth is even if it is not really an absolute truth and blind them to what the truth really is without them ever realizing that they are trapped and blinded. It can help people avoid going down the path of arrogance, telling people that they are unconscious or their experiences are fake. After seeing enough examples of that from enough different people with different views on enlightenment I realized I don't want to be like that and I'm glad I observed enough people to realize that instead of becoming like that. When I see it, I often wish I could show each person all the different kinds of people with different beliefs about the truth who act like that so they could hopefully see it for what it is.

Learning about what experiences others have had is also a way to find out how to have more experiences for yourself. If you can learn how they see things and manage to see things the same way you can maybe have the same experience and see what it is like to compare and contrast.

The first problem is to learn how to communicate past misunderstanding. So many people argue but then realize there is no conflict apart from the conflict over word choice and the penchant to want to perceive conflict.

I think there are two dimensions to spiritual reality. On the Horizontal Axis there is the tension between the Absolute Unmanifest and one's experience of consciousness and all its content. On the Vertical Axis there is the dimension of expression of Love and what qualities are dominant within one's own being.

You see two opposing accounts, I see a two dimensional map and people trying to testify about what region they are coming from on the map. I see a whole and not all the parts in conflict with each other. The conflict is in communication and agenda with communicating.

[Xan]

In all my research I have not been able to pinpoint an awakening that could be the final absolute experience. Different people will even reach the same set of awakenings in different orders and have different opinions on which one is truer. Some of them experience oneness before void. Some experience void before oneness.

For example, there is the oneness experience of overwhelming love and there is the void. Some people have had both. Some of them experience oneness before void. Some experience void before oneness....

Well said, arive nan.

We just keep going in discovery since clinging to any point in the process keeps us stuck, temporarily.


Xan

[Xan]

andrew g: Sometimes I think 'Love' brings us back from where we might ideally like to be.

If you're talking about love relationships, perhaps that's so, andrew.

But in my experience love doesn't 'bring me back', it follows me back in a way... as the oneness of the void is experienced as love for-no-reason here in the body-mind.


Ultimately I see the key to happiness as manifesting a path of love which is easy and doesnt take us into suffering!

I see it like this too. Living from and as love elevates our experience of life.

It also means, in part, having compassion for the suffering around us and even for ourselves when we have difficulties. And compassion is a soft power that frees us from suffering.


Xan

[andrew g]

andrew g: Sometimes I think 'Love' brings us back from where we might ideally like to be.

If you're talking about love relationships, perhaps that's so, andrew.

But in my experience love doesn't 'bring me back', it follows me back in a way... as the oneness of the void is experienced as love for-no-reason here in the body-mind.

I wasnt really talking about love relationships specifically, I was using the word 'love' more generically. My point was though that in the absolute state my kids dont get fed because I am zenned to the max. Nothing gets done because my mind is totally disengaged. In order to feed my kids my mind re-engages even if its just a little bit and I return to being consciously purposeful. However, I can also go with the idea of love following us back, it just depends on what perspective we take on what is choosing.


Ultimately I see the key to happiness as manifesting a path of love which is easy and doesnt take us into suffering!

I see it like this too. Living from and as love elevates our experience of life.

It also means, in part, having compassion for the suffering around us and even for ourselves when we have difficulties. And compassion is a soft power that frees us from suffering.


Xan

Yes. Thats nice.

[Xan]

I wasnt really talking about love relationships specifically, I was using the word 'love' more generically. My point was though that in the absolute state my kids dont get fed because I am zenned to the max. Nothing gets done because my mind is totally disengaged. In order to feed my kids my mind re-engages even if its just a little bit and I return to being consciously purposeful.

I know what you mean, andrew. We do seem to go through a spacey phase in our awakening process.


However, I can also go with the idea of love following us back, it just depends on what perspective we take on what is choosing.

Oh. I didn't consider any choosing aspect, except in allowing. At a certain point I think it becomes automatic... the natural chain of events.


Xan

[andrew g]

I wasnt really talking about love relationships specifically, I was using the word 'love' more generically. My point was though that in the absolute state my kids dont get fed because I am zenned to the max. Nothing gets done because my mind is totally disengaged. In order to feed my kids my mind re-engages even if its just a little bit and I return to being consciously purposeful.

I know what you mean, andrew. We do seem to go through a spacey phase in our awakening process.

**
I think I had mine before the kids came into my life. These days I am grateful to totally zen just for 15 minutes a day. I read something from Tolle the other week in which he said that he liked to sit quietly sometimes and meditate on the formless quality of everyday things. My thought was that that is nice n' all but clearly he doesnt have kids! :) Im saying this but I dont want to give the impression that I regret the kids coming into my life when the truth is that the way I feel about them is really beyond words and I wouldnt want it any other way.
**


However, I can also go with the idea of love following us back, it just depends on what perspective we take on what is choosing.

Oh. I didn't consider any choosing aspect, except in allowing. At a certain point I think it becomes automatic... the natural chain of events.


Xan


Yes I agree, but I wouldnt say that I experience the chooser and the chosen quite as one when the mind is engaged. I still experience a 'this and that'....'shall I have jam or honey on my toast?' for example. So choices are still consciously made, whether its primarily me making the choices, or primarily something else making the choices is open to debate, though its not one I really want to get into.

[arive nan]

We do seem to go through a spacey phase in our awakening process.


Ramana Maharshi is an extreme example of this:

http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Sp/Ramana/Ramana.htm (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cosmicharmony.com% 2FSp%2FRamana%2FRamana.htm)

"He now began his life of complete inner absorption in the great Universal Self. He sat in various places within the temple complex, avoiding contact with people as much as possible. For days, and weeks on end he was lost in samadhi, unconscious of the world and his body. Insects and vermin crawled over his legs and chewed his flesh but he was completely unaware of it. His consciousness was swimming in the vast ocean of Universal Awareness. His body began to lose weight and weaken but he took no notice of it.

"'I knew nothing, had learned nothing before I came here. Some mysterious power took possession of me and effected a thorough transformation. I knew nothing and planned nothing. When I left home in my 17th year, I was like a speck swept on by a tremendous flood. I knew not my body or the world, whether it was day or night. It was difficult even to open my eyes. The eyelids seemed to be glued down. My body became a mere skeleton. Visitors pitied my plight as they were not aware how blissful I was. It was after years that I came across the term Brahman when I happened to look into some books on Vedanta brought to me. Amused, I said to myself, 'Is this known as Brahman!?!'"

One of the sadhus in residence at the temple noticed the fine young brahmin lad, lost to the world in samadhi and adopted him into his care. A few pious souls came occasionally and forced him to eat food from their hands. The young Maharshi was barely aware of their presence or what he was eating, and never spoke or appeared to take any notice of what was going on. Seeing the frightful condition of his body, finally a group of devotees picked him up bodily and carried him out of the damp, dark temple recesses and to the nearby shrine to Subramaniam. Here he continued to sit motionless in samadhi, dead to his surroundings."

[andrew g]

Yeah Ive read about that before, thats a pretty full on awakening! I think UG Krishnamurti's was also pretty drastic if I remember right.

[Xan]

Yes... I also heard about Thomas Aquinas, who had a sudden awakening after many years of writing about theology... that he had to be lead around for the last 1 1/2 years of his life.

Most of us outlive that phase, as Ramana did. Later on he interacted with people and animals, and gave practical instructions for such things as construction of buildings in the ashram and how the kitchen should be run.

My own really spacey period lasted a few years and I was surprised when I first came out... at how much more effective and balanced I am now in ordinary living than ever before, yet without losing whole awareness.


Xan

[arive nan]

Speaking of suffering after enlightenment, I am reminded of Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul. She felt God's love, then spent the rest of her life in a spiritual crisis wondering why God would not bless her with that feeling again.

[not human]

My own transition has lasted just over a year now. Having had the egoic props kicked out I find myself in limbo to some extent, like waiting for something to happen because I've found no desire to instill a change. I find myself now at a point of total indifference as the motivations that used to propel me into action just aren't there. I could quite happily stare into space all day long. It's like not being drawn to anything except what is directly in front of you.....

[Docha]

Isn't that called peace?

[not human]

Isn't that called peace?
It is peaceful D but I have a need to function in this world & at this point am looking for a way....

[Docha]

So you need a dose of inspiration? A dash of motivation and an energy drink?

[Xan]

Speaking of suffering after enlightenment, I am reminded of Mother Teresa's dark night of the soul. She felt God's love, then spent the rest of her life in a spiritual crisis wondering why God would not bless her with that feeling again.
I heard that and I thought... too bad she didn't have a practice that took her into pure love awareness.


Xan

[not human]

So you need a dose of inspiration? A dash of motivation and an energy drink?
The thing is I am not drawn to any form of a band aid solution D really difficult to put this in words without sounding apathetic.....

[Xan]

It is peaceful D but I have a need to function in this world & at this point am looking for a way....
not human... As I see it there are so many subtle aspects of awakening and these constant transitions, that if I were to try to latch on in my mind to a way to function, or anything else, it would just get more uncomfortable.

For me it's about trusting the process and letting go all the time.


Xan

[not human]

not human... As I see it there are so many subtle aspects of awakening and these constant transitions, that if I were to try to latch on in my mind to a way to function it would just get more uncomfortable.

For me it's about trusting the process and letting go all the time.


Xan

I was hoping you would chime in Xan:hug3: .....yes it still is about groundlessness & coming to terms with it ..still clinging to old ways of finding motivation through ego but now the egoic thrill is gone.....sounds like a John Lee Hooker song :hug3:

[Xan]

Yes... we can get used to the groundlessness of the new way... and find the solid foundation of open inner awareness.... being.

It's all we can really count on any more. :hug3:


Xan

[not human]

Yes... we can get used to the groundlessness of the new way... and find the solid foundation of open inner awareness.... being.

It's all we can really count on any more. :hug3:


Xan

...I mean after this....it's not like theres a choice anymore ...it's just getting to know the terrain :smile:

[NightSpirit]

Maybe the idea is, that once you've had that glimse nh and know it, then you can get on with living this life that is given you without the need to cling to its blinge.

[not human]

Maybe the idea is, that once you've had that glimse nh and know it, then you can get on with living this life that is given you without the need to cling to its blinge.
Thats the bit that I seem to be reactively waiting for NS :D

[NightSpirit]

Thats the bit that I seem to be reactively waiting for NS :D

awww you just need to drag back up that passion for life again nh...its right there for the taking if you want it. :D

[not human]

awww you just need to drag back up that passion for life again nh...its right there for the taking if you want it. :D

See thats the thing NS it now appears that the "passion" that used to drive me was based on something else...( I don't like bringing in the E word all the time ) I know I am surrounded by grace but even that doesn't do it for me. All I can do at the moment is keep it light & do the next apparent thing...that doesn't mean I am unhappy...just confused :D

[Xan]

Then we can be present and okay with the confusion, eh? It's just on the surface after all.

Just a reminder... 'waiting' for something to be different is not being present with what's here now but anticipating something else... and is a mind trap.


Xan

[NightSpirit]

Maybe you just need to clip them ole passion leads to another source nh. The source doesn't have to be driven by ego, or over-emphasised in its apparent nature. Pehaps its simply a matter of knowing that your contentment comes from the knowledge that we don't have to wear our noses down from sticking them on the grindstone all our lives?

The confusion could come from the ego self telling you that what you've discovered is way too simple and its gotta be harder? Perhaps by flicking old ego off your shoulder, the passion will then take its place? :smile:

[NightSpirit]

I think Xan and I just said the same thing? :D

[not human]

Then we can be present and okay with the confusion, eh? It's just on the surface after all.

Just a reminder... 'waiting' for something to be different is not being present with what's here now but anticipating something else... and is a mind trap.


Xan

I hear you Xan....it's more like abiding ..it still takes you out of the moment because the very act of wanting change invalidates the present...but the only advice I could find on surviving these transition periods was to endure them.....
false sentiment & enhancement just flies out the window in the wake of it's power.....:confused:

[Xan]

...but the only advice I could find on surviving these transition periods was to endure them.....
false sentiment & enhancement just flies out the window in the wake of it's power.....:confused:

Sometimes I just endure the transitions, but then I remember I may enjoy and appreciate them for the transformations they really are. I mean real feelings of gratitude rather than ideas that I 'should'.

Another thing I discovered is I can feel compassion for my mind that is uncomfortable with the confusion and change. I feel it in my heart and let it spread out over those parts of my mind, if you know what I mean.


Xan

[not human]

Sometimes I just endure the transitions, but then I remember I may enjoy and appreciate them for the transformations they really are. I mean real feelings of gratitude rather than ideas that I 'should'.

Another thing I discovered is I can feel compassion for my mind that is uncomfortable with the confusion and change. I feel it in my heart and let it spread out over those parts of my mind, if you know what I mean.


Xan

That I can go with...but if you can also throw a little fairy dust my way that would be swell :hug3:

[Xan]

The confusion could come from the ego self telling you that what you've discovered is way too simple and its gotta be harder?

This is a good point, NS.

But most often what I feel is 'energy confusion' rather than idea confusion. As our energies are transforming and shifting there is sometimes a feeling of confusion with it, as we are being formed newly.


Xan

[Xan]

That I can go with...but if you can also throw a little fairy dust my way that would be swell :hug3:

You got it... :love7:

:wink:


Xan

[NightSpirit]

Then both are valid points Xan and work together in balance mind/body/spirit :D

[not human]

You got it... :love7:

:wink:


Xan


Ka Ching....Xan power:occasion16: :occasion16: :occasion16:

[Xan]

Ka Ching....Xan power:occasion16: :occasion16: :occasion16:


You do have a way of making us laugh, not human. What a gift!

Ka Ching.... the Grace of Love Itself.


Xan

[Xan]

Then both are valid points Xan and work together in balance mind/body/spirit :D

Yeah... balance. :smile:

In my view of things spirit is the center where balance arises from... like the hub of a wheel... and everything else radiates from that.


Xan

[blackraven]

Do you think it's possible to return to suffering after enlightenment?

Serrao - Yes, just like when we're old enough to realize that our belief there is a Santa Claus has come to a disenchanting end. It's painful as hell, but life is like that. Life moves in a series of waves. Those waves bring low periods and high periods. Nothing exists on a flat continuum. That's just reality, but as we get older we learn to weather the storm with less pain. We, the ships riding on top of those waves, just learn to flow up and down with the current. The key is not to fight the turbulence or you'll find yourself overboard.

Blackraven

[not human]

You do have a way of making us laugh, not human. What a gift!

Ka Ching.... the Grace of Love Itself.


Xan


If I can not take myself too seriously & drag a few victims along for the ride as well...then I am happy :wav: :wav:

[Xan]

Isn't that the 11th Commandment?

Thou shalt not take thyself too seriously. :angel8:


Xan

[NightSpirit]

blackraven raised a good point. Part of suffering springs from our loss of innocense. In nh's case, there is also loss of innocense, there's the clincher.

Wide-eyed youth on our side brings us ever-present joy...yes, experiencing in each moment. Maturity robs us of this magic, hence the beginning of suffering. Perhaps we go through life silently wishing for that child-like innocense again and again. To be free spirited, with no constraints or time-tables, no worries, no bills, no pain...just the experience of popping into bed at night and dreaming of fairies and spacemen.
Could this be the source of suffering? So when we have these life-changing shifts we feel we're mourning the loss of a very old friend...and like grief...this to shall pass.

[NightSpirit]

Getting back on the threads course and to answer the question:-

Perhaps the need for enlightenment is our path to suffering #

[Xan]

Perhaps the need for enlightenment is our path to suffering

And vice versa. One of my teachers said, "If it weren't for suffering no one would go for enlightenment."


Xan

[Docha]

The thing is I am not drawn to any form of a band aid solution D really difficult to put this in words without sounding apathetic.....


I get it, it was meant to be lighthearted.

The only word that comes to mind when I read your posts is empty - but it's not empty, there isn't a description that rolls off the the lips.

Stasis maybe?

You will come through it, it's just a part of the process and it cycles. Death and Rebirth into something more, different, better perhaps?

Maybe we need to get you a pheonix? Light the fires and take off :)

In regards to the basic premise of suffering after enlightenment there can be no joy without sorrow, and there would be no sorrow without joy. They must balance, it's the law of the universe and just the way it is. Everything happens in a circle - what goes around comes around.

Acknowledging and accepting how you feel and where you are at is about the only way to muddle through. - That and not forgetting how to laugh.

Wish I had a band-aid solution, a quick fix that would last an eternity. I might actually make it rich and famous then!

Just take it one blessing at a time.

[not human]

I get it, it was meant to be lighthearted.

The only word that comes to mind when I read your posts is empty - but it's not empty, there isn't a description that rolls off the the lips.

Stasis maybe?

You will come through it, it's just a part of the process and it cycles. Death and Rebirth into something more, different, better perhaps?

Maybe we need to get you a pheonix? Light the fires and take off :)

In regards to the basic premise of suffering after enlightenment there can be no joy without sorrow, and there would be no sorrow without joy. They must balance, it's the law of the universe and just the way it is. Everything happens in a circle - what goes around comes around.

Acknowledging and accepting how you feel and where you are at is about the only way to muddle through. - That and not forgetting how to laugh.

Wish I had a band-aid solution, a quick fix that would last an eternity. I might actually make it rich and famous then!

Just take it one blessing at a time.

You can help if you want.......give us a hug :hug3:

[not human]

Isn't that the 11th Commandment?

Thou shalt not take thyself too seriously. :angel8:


Xan

Yep Xan right before the 12 th commandment.........

DO NOT EAT THE YELLOW SNOW

[NightSpirit]

Docha

Wish I had a band-aid solution, a quick fix that would last an eternity. I might actually make it rich and famous then!



Will this do?

http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/turbobird01/JesusBandaids.gif

[not human]

Will this do?

http://i1017.photobucket.com/albums/af296/turbobird01/JesusBandaids.gif


OOHH shes good ...:D

[Docha]

Lol That just might work, how could it not?

[Docha]

Oh forgot this...

:hug2:

[not human]

Oh forgot this...

:hug2:


MMMMMMMMM :hug2: lost in the hugs MMMMMMMMMM

[NightSpirit]

MMMMMMMMM :hug2: lost in the hugs MMMMMMMMMM

heyyyyy...share nh share ......thanks D :D

[not human]

heyyyyy...share nh share ......thanks D :D

c'mon & park it in here NS ....MMMMMM:hug2:MMMMMMM

[NightSpirit]

ooohh..GROUP HUG! :D :D

[Docha]

Group hugs!

:hug2: :hug3: :hug:

Does three constitute as a group?

[not human]

Group hugs!

:hug2: :hug3: :hug:

Does three constitute as a group?

In the case of nightspirit it constitutes a bloody army with all her multiple personallities :D :D

[NightSpirit]

In the case of nightspirit it constitutes a bloody army with all her multiple personallities :D :D


hahahahaha....funny man nh! :D

[not human]

hahahahaha....funny man nh! :D

SSSory NS ...please don't bring evil nightspirit out ....pppplease.......:D

[NightSpirit]

SSSory NS ...please don't bring evil nightspirit out ....pppplease.......:D

*crossed arms, stern look and tapping foot*....hmmm...(picture RACQ add with the dog) ...Whose a bad boy? :D

[not human]

*crossed arms, stern look and tapping foot*....hmmm...(picture RACQ add with the dog) ...Whose a bad boy? :D

(sheepishly) ...me ...I been weely, weely bad ...(happily) I should be punished :blob3:

[NightSpirit]

(sheepishly) ...me ...I been weely, weely bad ...(happily) I should be punished :blob3:


LOL :D :D :D

[NightSpirit]

and for all you non-aussies out there....here is Whose a Bad Boy dog add...

deleted link...

[not human]

and for all you non-aussies out there....here is Whose a Bad Boy dog add...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AA9maAERDAs
your getting your cut n pastes mix up NS thats the Beatles hehehe...silly NS :tongue:

[NightSpirit]

it is nh? ..darn...guess the beatles are reaching down from the Divine...Hallelujah! :D


Okay...I'll try again....

For all you non-aussies out there....the funny dog commercial from RACQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRdZBYbom-Q

[not human]

it is nh? ..darn...guess the beatles are reaching down from the Divine...Hallelujah! :D


Okay...I'll try again....

For all you non-aussies out there....the funny dog commercial from RACQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FRdZBYbom-Q

Sorry NS but thats highlights from last years male calender shoot :D

[NightSpirit]

Sorry NS but thats highlights from last years male calender shoot :D

oh shoot..well that'll suck em in nh..hehe....

dontcha love it when you know he's just kidding me and i still have to go check it ...woe is the human race! :icon_eek: :tongue:

[not human]

oh shoot..well that'll suck em in nh..hehe....

dontcha love it when you know he's just kidding me and i still have to go check it ...woe is the human race! :icon_eek: :tongue:

KA POW ...you got served....:cool:

[NightSpirit]

KA POW ...you got served....:cool:

not that i go round checking out poster boys nh but now that you mention it :angel2:

[not human]

not that i go round checking out poster boys nh but now that you mention it :angel2:
No I understand its just research :D

[NightSpirit]

No I understand its just research :D

there ya go...see...now i'm enlightened :D

[God-Like]

Do you think it's possible to return to suffering after enlightenment?

Hi Serrao .

I suppose It's down to the Individual as to what Is enlightenment .

In my eyes englightenment allows the Individual to see clearly In relation to what they are and In relation to the world around us .

Sufferings will always be apart of our life experience whilst we function In mind set that allows the expression of separation .

If you stay In a state of enlightenment and your body can sustain that then It Is possible not to endure sufferings In the way that one used to In an ordinary mind state .

x dazzle x