A Quote from Marcus Manilius

[Greybeard]

Marcus Manilius was a Roman poet/astrologer whose work Astronomica, written written about 20 A.D., is the first complete astrological text to reach us intact from antiquity. The book deals primarily with the signs, the houses and the fixed stars. The planets are hardly mentioned. His sources were of Greek origin; the Greeks invented horoscopic (natal) astrology at Alexandria in the 3rd and 2nd centuries B.C.

Just thought I would share a few lines from Manilius with you, from Goold's translation.

"Fate rules the world; all things stand fixed by its immutable laws.
And the long ages are assigned a predestined course of events.
At birth our death is sealed, and our end is consequent upon our beginning.
Fate is the source of riches and kingdoms, and the more frequent poverty.
By fate are men, at birth, given their skills and characters,
their merits and defects, their losses and gains.
No one can renounce what is bestowed, or possess what is denied.
No man, by prayer, may seize fortune if it demur, or escape if it draw nigh.
Each one must bear his appointed lot."

What do you think about this Stoic astrologer's views?

[Moggy]

By fate are men, at birth, given their skills and characters,
their merits and defects, their losses and gains.

Greybeard, to answer your question: I think he lacked the understanding of our origins. Our skills and defects are earned throughout a long process of involution and evolution, as we commence our adventure of life from angelic realms down through the celestial (involution) until our souls reach the point of separation of the male and female components within us (known as the 'fall' from the Garden of Eden...a story to protect those who require protection from truth...similar to protecting sensitive plants that must live in a greenhouse until they are able to survive without it).

From that point the twin souls, now on separate journeys, enter Earth in mineral form and garner experience until their 'death' wherein they remain in the astral realm while assimilating their Earth experiences. The completion of same enables them to attract a more advanced body and so they next descend to Earth to enter the vegetable kingdom. This process continues through the animal kingdom and finally the human kingdom, where their Earth journey ends as the next kingdom is that of angelhood, each reincarnation reinforcing their original skills and defects according to whatever conditioning energy (pain or pleasure) was involved in the experiences.

People come by their talents and destiny, merits and defects, only after a long system of natural process. Any fate that is involved is in the direction bestowed upon the soul from its angelic parents. Once the human kingdom is reached it is possible for the soul to make changes in negative conditioning energy. For the most part, that is made possible through the knowledge of astrology.

[Greybeard]

A well-considered answer, Moggy.

Anyone else want to offer their views?

[numerouno]

Astrology can describe only the situations I may face in life. Just like a weather report, that predicts torrential rain. This maybe the situation for my " astro-siblings" who were born on the same, day and time. However i decide to wait for the rain to subside, another drives meeting with an accident and is now in the trauma section of the hospital. So I ask is it presdestined? Astrology was right it predicted the rain the decision on action is remains on the afflicted.

Death....the final realm, personally any astrologer who delves in prediciting death is a fool who causes psychological distrurbances for his client. Death is certain who needs astrology for that.

A pathologist labels a person died from old age, his tests cannot find cause of death. astrologers will never know because it is not accepted in modern medicine. Otherwise pathologist will referring these cases to his medical on site astrologer for another explanation. After many cases like the medical astrologer would found death causing aspects I would think.


In any case I'm a neophyte. The soul of a person and his karmic debt is that part of equation that cannot be known by the astrologer that is why people born on the same day, time and place are still different. Crudely put its like five people driving a porche , the porche is the value of date, Time and place of birth. The astrologer describes the porche , would the five of them agree with resuits...yet the five are still different.

[Greybeard]

I have predicted my own death right on this website. I feel no psychological disturbance from that. In the absence of fear why would there be disturbance?
Very few astrologers will discuss personal death with any client.

I had one, a friend of mine, who asked me if I could predict his death. I said I did not do that....but I would look in his horoscope and then consider whether I would talk with him about it.

But the need to talk never became an issue. He committed suicide.

His natal chart had Pluto in the 12th House of Self-destruction, in Leo and in close square to his natal sun in Scorpio. When Pluto by transit came to EXACTLY 45 degrees 00 minutes to natal Sun (the timing was +/- 6 days, simply because the ephemeris only attained that level of accuracy) he destroyed himself. 45 degrees is the octile aspect, a difficult, hard, or evil aspect. It was exact to the minute of arc, triggering the "self-destruction" promised in the birth chart. Should I have talked with him about it? It would have changed nothing. As Manilius says, "At birth our death is sealed, and our end is consequent upon our beginning."

Abraham Lincoln and Charles Darwin were born on the same day, but at different times, in different places, under different circumstances. I fail to see how this disproves astrology. I wonder who these five people all born at the same time and place might be. That is a most unusual circumstance. I assume you must know them personally and have followed their lives.

[Greybeard]

I have a friend who was present at the birth of her niece. She was very careful to note the exact time of the baby's first breath. We have an accurate birth time. The baby was born with Scorpio Rising. Pluto, ruler of Scorpio (and of the Life, being Ascendant ruler) is exactly opposed to Mercury in Gemini --an Air sign--, the dominant planet in the 8th House of Death. The baby was born with the umbilical cord wrapped around its neck, which cut off her air. I will guarantee you that this child, when she has grown old, will die of asphyxia, strangulation, or other form of "cutting off of air". At birth our death is sealed, and our end is consequent upon our beginning. What happened at the beginning of her life will be echoed at the end.

[numerouno]

@ greybeard.....

You are already an astrologer and with comes the psychological foundation required that allows you to deal with death. That's why seeing your death in your chart doesn't sffect your psyche. I seen first account of the damage caused by an astrologer who gave out this info to his client. I meant to say that although an expert astrologer can do this, some things are best left un-said.

Yes I believe in pre-destined facts also, i believe impact of certain incidents can be lessend or avoided, death must come and unavoidable.

Your statement about Darwin and Lincoln, does not apply as I was talking about same day, same time and same place. Darwin and lincoln you mentioned were born on the same day but different times and places many factors change in my experience. However the cases I am following are people born on the same day, same time and place. All of them show amazing similarities in their lives that proves astrology is true. Then is a case of twins who are not identical twins, identical twins occur when a single egg after fertilization divides. Here there two eggs fertilized separately by two sperm, but both sisters are born on the same day and obviously the same place but time is an hour different. One sister is extremely wealthy and the other barely making it. Yet both had three children and married in the same time. However one lost her son during this time her twin's son was sick and almost died. Both suffered marital problems around the same Time yet one got devorced and the other didn't. This why I feel the karmic debt is makes a difference yet this we cannot know only god. Then again their kids were on different dates and times in the same place. Yet one sister is wealthy and the other is struggling financially with only time of birth is slightly different with other birth details being the same.

I never said astrology is false it can only give 80% accuracy of past and future events. My message is that while death is pre-destined, I rather not dwell on it, and some incidents that astrology says has a strong possibility of occurring can be avoided or lessened.

[Greybeard]

I knew a guy, did his chart for him. Told him to watch out for falls or falling objects over the next couple of weeks. He belonged to the idle rich class and was also a rather fearful sort. So he shut himself in his house. Sitting on the couch watching tv ... a huge picture hanging on the wall above him fell on his head. Well by golly, at least it wasn't a 747.

[numerouno]

I knew a guy, did his chart for him. Told him to watch out for falls or falling objects over the next couple of weeks. He belonged to the idle rich class and was also a rather fearful sort. So he shut himself in his house. Sitting on the couch watching tv ... a huge picture hanging on the wall above him fell on his head. Well by golly, at least it wasn't a 747.

Your subtle attempt to tell me that even we attempt to avoid something it will still happen has been noted, amazingly I was reading about Sepherial, an astrologer who himself couldn't avoid a incident in his life.

Then are remedial measures a waste of time that has been given?

[Greybeard]

In my view, and in the view of Manilius...and in the view of the Bhagavad Gita as well....we are pre-destined to a life, with purpose. But sadly, we have eyes and do not see.

Paul says that the Potter makes, of the same lump of clay, one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. The clay has no say-so in the creation of the vessel.

The wonderful thing about coming to see that we have no power over our lives, despite the illusion that we do, is that we are suddenly liberated. We become truly free in our bondage to fate.

[Kaldorei]

This is an extremely interesting thread.

[LadyVirgoxoxo]

I agree with him! Thanks for sharing GreyBeard!

[Greybeard]

I happen to disagree with the views of Moggy and Numerouno, and do agree wholeheartedly with Manilius. Long years of living and the study of a few thousand horoscopes (compared to the lives they represent) have convinced me that we are bound to a destiny that is essentially "graven in stone".

Even our choices in life, which are apparently made freely, are rooted in our inherent natures and may not be so freely taken as seems to be the case. Spinoza argues convincingly that "all causes have a prior cause", and this precept applies even to the small choices we make in our everyday life.

Even if there is such a thing as an "immortal personal soul" [I say there is no such thing] it is not germane to the fact that we are living this life, not some other past or future, in the here and now. And all that matters, what is important, is what we do in this present moment, which is Eternity. The past is "dead and gone" [It is not; it is very much alive in the here and now. But it can't be changed, and so in that sense is beyond our powers] and the future is not yet here. I think the wise thing to do is to attend to the moment and let the past and the future take care of themselves.

If we willingly accept our destiny, and live it with thanksgiving and joy, we will not do so badly in life.

[Moggy]

TO KNOW - TO DARE - TO WILL - TO KEEP SILENT..To learn how to will is to learn how to exercise dominion. But to be able to exert will power you must first know. It is not a matter of *having* free will, it is a matter of *freeing* the will, which by its essence means the ability not to choose, not to participate in the destiny disclosed by one's horoscope. I have found the means of accomplishing this is via transcendance. A case in point:

Recently transiting Mercury formed an aspect of discord with my natal Mars, an indication I would be agitated and prone to impulsive actions and/or speech with a tendency to have a rather sharp tongue. Because of its nature, the aspect attracted to me a hostile person looking for a battle of wits. Rather than falling prey to the urges such an aspect generates - I definitely was agitated and wanted to present my defense - I transcended the negative urge and my previous modus operandi...I did not partake in the gauntlet thrown. A Will that has been set free is a thing of beauty. :D

[LadyVirgoxoxo]

Words of wisdom, Moggy :smile:

[Greybeard]

Used to be that when transiting Mars came to the waxing square of his own natal place....I would go through a week of some sort of anger/conflict situation.

Nowadays I don't even notice the transit.

Why not? I don't know. Could it be that my will to "not be angry" had something to do with it? I suppose it could.

[jalini]

Paul says that the Potter makes, of the same lump of clay, one vessel for honor and another for dishonor. The clay has no say-so in the creation of the vessel.







To be respectful to the potter, we must act as tho we have free will...

[Greybeard]

Indeed jalini.....we must act as if we do have free will. We are in fact compelled to do so by life.

However, when we realize that beneath it all we are in thrall to the dictates of the potter, we achieve liberation....we become free.

There is always a possibility that we do have free will, given the paradoxical nature of things.

I think that perhaps our most fundamental choice is whether to follow the path toward the light, or to remain forever in the shadows.

[jalini]

Ah yes Greybeard, the devil is indeed in the details

[truther]

GreyBeard do you have a grey beard? I wonder if that's why you named your user name after that lol.
Well I do think our lives and actions and thoughts are recorded by our angels and that God knows what we will do before we do it. I always wondered about why God set us at a place and with family. Who knows? But I will say that I believe God knows everything!! And that includes our destiny.
The funny thing is there is no way of knowing the whole truth. Because as a Christian I know that there is truth to our claims but there is truth to claims of other religions and yet not all truths in ours and there's claims is valid. For instance, is stoning an adulterous a solution? I think not. Is claiming virgin wives in heaven after killing people a solution? I think not. So with that said, I honestly find life such a mystery that we will not know a hoot about why we're here and where we're going its all speculation. Unless you talk to the Source then you will know but even then do you know that it is truly the Source that is talking to you? And yet I think all religions are manifesting an evolving reality created by us. And yet the Masters are here for LOVE. Because ultimately that is what life is about. LOVE. And yet I can profess it but not experience it or do it. So in the end I believe that the Creator will choose rightly because it knows infinitely more than we do. But I really do not understand hell. It is far beyond what I do not want to know about. I hope no one I know ever goes there, ever. It is the worst reality. If you have LOVE in you and LOVE others you wouldn't choose to go there because GOD is LOVE. So that makes perfectly sense that people who hate themselves or hate God go there. I just do not like it. Its sad :( No one likes to think about it and in fact I don't know why I do I guess its because I studied religion and am aware of catholic mysticism. Anyhow I also believe in astrology and fate but has anyone addressed GRACE?

For instance there were predictions but because prayer mitigated catastrophic events it was forestalled or negated. So in that sense I believe GRACE is what sets itself against KARMA or the LAW. GRACE is what we need. And GRACE is a divine blessing or freely given gift given by no merit on part of the receiver. Amen.

[Greybeard]

Yes, truther, I have a grey beard.

I don't know about stoning the adulterous. If I recall correctly Jesus suggested that "He who is without sin cast the first stone."

But I must say that in all honesty I am strongly in favor of having 72 virgins waiting on me in Paradise. That would be to kill for.... I sure hope they have a good supply of Viagra in Paradise.

You can never be sure when it is the Source talking to you.... I got a phone call once, and a deep booming voice told me that I was going to burn in the eternal fires of hell. Turned out it wasn't God though; it was my mother-in-law. She had me worried there for a moment.

Our very existence depends on grace, truther. Life is a divine gift, with no merit on our part. That's why this old guy with the grey beard says "Thank you for letting me see another sunrise" every morning.

[mattie]

Manilius was a 1st century AD roman astrologer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcus_Maniliusz

I don’t at all agree that our future is predetermined or fate.

There are many possible options that exist for each of the choices we make in a lifetime. However, it is our selection of a single option from numerous available options for each choice that determines the manifested pathway. So, while the variety of options we have for every choice could be identified (from a larger perspective than we usually occupy), & even catalogued, this isn’t predestination. The choice of of the pathway is entirely ours.

Given the different combination of choices possible for the countless of decisions & the millions of resulting possible pathways available for each decision in a given lifetime, there exists an almost infinite variety of outcomes. While it would not be infinite in a strict technical sense, the mathematics for all of possible outcomes for all of the options existing for each decision of an entire lifetime would have quite a few zeroes!

Therefore, one could say there is a certain level of predetermination in a very broad sense, but one with almost an infinite amount of available pathways.

That ‘each one must bear his appointed lot.’ is a rather negative view. Organized religion has long worked on our looking at our existence here as inherently crummy, only relieved by death & our going to heaven. Our experience here can be delightful. Of course if we view it as such, then reliance on organized religion to save us from it is diminished. LOL.

While we may have a different view than this in modern times, those who explored these ideas throughout history have had a valuable function.

[Greybeard]

I agree that we make choices. We must. Life obliges us to do so.

However, 40 years of comparing horoscopes to the lives they supposedly depict suggests to me that "astrology works".

Astrology could not possibly work if "free will" (i.e., making a choice that changes my path) exists. The smallest change would alter my destiny beyond recognition, just as when my computer "selects" a "1" instead of a "0" in a single event, the outcome is wholly different.

And that is the problem in "free will". A person's horoscope does accurately predict when he or she will marry, have a child, take a trip across the ocean, fall from power...including things of a nature over which the person has no control at all...and this could not be so if the choices taken were truly free.

Spinoza postulates that every cause has a prior cause, stretching clear back to the First Cause. If this be true, then isn't it possible that the choices we make, which appear to us to be freely arrived at, might in fact have their roots in our very nature...and the choice itself is predetermined by it?

I once watched a commercial on TV. Two guys are sitting on the sidelines, watching some kids play football. A girl in pigtails gets the ball and runs toward the goal line. Before her is a muddy patch on the field. Right in front of the two guys she is tackled and goes sliding through the mud. But she makes an exceptional effort and advances the ball. The two guys, sitting side by side and having basically the same perspective on this event have two totally different reactions. One rolls over laughing -- he saw the comedy in this girl sliding through the mud. The other gives the girl a "thumbs up" -- he saw the supreme effort she made, and applauded it. The two different reactions were inherent in the character of each of the two guys. Our choices in life may be equally inherent in our inborn nature -- not quite so "freely arrived at" as appears to us.

Let's return to Educational TV. A football game. The receiver goes downfield, makes a great catch, and is smashed to the ground by 3 or 4 opponents in what must have been a very painful encounter. But wait...suddenly the receiver is seen running downfield to score a touchdown. Impossible!! He was clobbered. That is what we saw, no mistake, from the point of view of Camera A. But then the guy in the tv truck puts the view from Camera B on the screen, and the receiver never got touched by all those mean, ugly guys in the defensive backfield. He made a "move" and they never laid a hand on him. The lesson here is that "perception is reality". From the point of view of Camera A, the receiver was tackled. From the point of view of Camera B, he was not and scored a touchdown. There is no doubt that perception is reality. However, we must always be willing to ask ourselves -- "Is there another point of view, one from which I might see this thing (whatever it is) more clearly, more in tune with reality? In other words, is my point of view and consequent perception one that contains all the facts?

30 years ago I would have agreed with you entirely. Your thinking is clear and logical. But since that time, I have lived through new experiences that have compelled me to change my views. Manilius is right.

As was pointed out earlier in this thread, we must live every moment as though we have free will. We must pick up our weapons and make the fight. I think we do have some free will -- but that will seems to be limited to whether we will walk toward the light, or toward the darkness. It is very much an internal thing. It does affect what we encounter in life. The whole question seems to me, at this point in my life, to be one of those things which we cannot answer. The whole thing boils down to how we actually live our lives, and the theories we embrace don't really matter much in the end.

All the world's a stage, and we the actors 'pon it. I'll just play my role the best I can and not worry about the outcome. I'm glad the Director gave me the part.

[VesicaPhoenix11]

Very interesting and thought provoking thread you have here. I'll share a few of my thoughts on it; I'd like to start by requoting the initial post and question.

What do you think about this Stoic astrologer's views?


"Fate rules the world; all things stand fixed by its immutable laws.
And the long ages are assigned a predestined course of events.
At birth our death is sealed, and our end is consequent upon our beginning.
Fate is the source of riches and kingdoms, and the more frequent poverty.
By fate are men, at birth, given their skills and characters,
their merits and defects, their losses and gains.
No one can renounce what is bestowed, or possess what is denied.
No man, by prayer, may seize fortune if it demur, or escape if it draw nigh.
Each one must bear his appointed lot."

I've read this whole thread with great interest and enjoy the way it expanded on this; getting to the nitty-gritty of the matter and jumping right in to the free will and fate paradox. Truth is often found in paradox.

There is always a possibility that we do have free will, given the paradoxical nature of things.

Yes, I had been thinking "paradox, paradox, paradox" as I was reading the discussion between Greybeard, Moggy, and Numeruno and then Greybeard went right ahead and said it. My perception right now is that each person lives that paradox in their own way, by either accepting its unacceptable nature or by rejecting the unrejectable. And often people move between these views throughout their lives.

With that in mind I'd answer the initial post by saying that for me the key lies in how "bear" my "appointed lot". Whether my choice in "how" is caused by free will or fate is inconsequential as both are only perceptions of existence brought about by the fundamental duality of human consciousness. Perception of our lives, of our place in the universe is bound to be limited and therefore incomplete. I accept this as a necessary condition for my existence.

I focus on exploring my existence through whatever available channels make themselves apparent to me - astrology is one of many. In this exploration I often have to begin with an presumption that is unprovable (and therefore continually debatable), a certain perspective, to gain understanding from that level. In some cases that initial presumption holds true, in others it fails and must either be altered or released.

It seems to me that the debate here is not in whether any of us can determine with finality the infallibility of an astrological chart's ability to predict the circumstances of our lives - our personality, relationships, and experiences. But in the presumptions being held by the different people discussing this. Which is as it should be - through different perceptions we gain a greater understanding of our experience. With this premise in mind I choose to not only examine my own presumptions but also others presumptions. This keeps me occupied. *smile*

One last thought..
As was pointed out earlier in this thread, we must live every moment as though we have free will. We must pick up our weapons and make the fight. I think we do have some free will -- but that will seems to be limited to whether we will walk toward the light, or toward the darkness. It is very much an internal thing. It does affect what we encounter in life. The whole question seems to me, at this point in my life, to be one of those things which we cannot answer. The whole thing boils down to how we actually live our lives, and the theories we embrace don't really matter much in the end.

I agree with this with the addition that the theories we embrace do matter, but only in how they shape how we live our lives - shape our experience of this life. And - it reminds me of the way of the warrior described by Don Juan in the Castaneda books. A warrior knows that no one thing they do actually matters, that each moment is equal to each and every moment but they choose to act as if every action they make matters intensely and they act with impeccability and intent - this is what he terms "the path with heart" and I think of as paradox in motion.

Very interesting thread folks... thanks.