Not Lovable

[Gem]

In the heart of self definition there is a fundamental belief which amounts to not being good enough, leading to the assumption of being unworthy of love.

Not being lovable (as a belief) prevents ones from feeling loved and there's a whole bag of evidence that validates that core fundamental belief. By holding that belief one is always trying and striving to do something that makes them acceptable... but eventually they become exhausted and collapse into an overpowering lethargy, because they have to stop to realize... 'you don't have to do anything to be acceptable'.

The human organizm is so interactive. The thought makes an emotion which manifests sensationally in the body... the mind reacts to the sensation and the emotional cycle repeats and deepens, becoming more ingrained.

To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth and anything that refutes it is bulldust.

Knowing that... and it can't be denied; the fallacy of not being good enough, acceptable or lovable begins to crumble... and what's true shines through more and more.

[Silver]

I sort of get what you're saying. Do you believe this has always been the case with 'modern' humans? Isn't it just sort of politics and pressures that made the first human say to the next one in so many words, that they're unacceptable? Isn't it just the living of life that gets complicated and the messages are given to one another that they leave a lot to be desired, even though other loving messages may also be given?

[psychoslice]

Yes i think society and politics don't want to see us as loving who we are, fear they believe, but this belief is usually unconscious, keeps us together, for someone to step out of fear is seen as a rebel, just look at the news they shove in front of us ever day, i'm so glad to be an eccentric.

[Gem]

I sort of get what you're saying. Do you believe this has always been the case with 'modern' humans? Isn't it just sort of politics and pressures that made the first human say to the next one in so many words, that they're unacceptable? Isn't it just the living of life that gets complicated and the messages are given to one another that they leave a lot to be desired, even though other loving messages may also be given?

Hi,

I guess it doesn't matter about the general sense of what causes the 'unlovable' or 'not good enough'... but people get such impressions in various ways, parents reject or abuse them, they get raped, society expects a lot... what ever it might be.

Society in general isn't allowing individuals to grow from within and uniquely express themself. We expect to depend on others and the status quo to superficially approve our worth.

We are expected to put on facades to meet such approval and that approval leads us to believe these superficialalities are important. The effort it takes to uphold the false persona facade just can't be maintained.

[not human]

Gem are you talking about a source love or good old fashioned egoic human love, ploise explaane

[Silver]

We are expected to put on facades to meet such approval and that approval leads us to believe these superficialalities are important. The effort it takes to uphold the false persona facade just can't be maintained.

Yeah, that does really have a ring of truth to it.

[Gem]

Gem are you talking about a source love or good old fashioned egoic human love, ploise explaane

What is it? These little segments of love? The truth that you are wholly acceptable and lovable can be terribly distorted... the human relationship is very precarious because the child is entirely reliant, thus must, for the sake of survival, have complete trust in the parents.

What the parent does is imply that this and that like good grades, religous adhesion, societal expectations, etc is the way to gain love and acceptance, the child believes it doubtlessly and begins to strive to be good enough, good enough to gain approval and be acceptable...

The actual circumstances under which this impression is made are fairly diverse and often extermely subtle, but the 'not good enough' is (pretty much) univerally the reason a child first adopts the facade personality.

It's done in trust so is considered to be true...

[not human]

What is it? These little segments of love? The truth that you are wholly acceptable and lovable can be terribly distorted... the human relationship is very precarious because the child is entirely reliant, thus must, for the sake of survival, have complete trust in the parents.

What the parent does is imply that this and that like good grades, religous adhesion, societal expectations, etc is the way to gain love and acceptance, the child believes it doubtlessly and begins to strive to be good enough, good enough to gain approval and be acceptable...

The actual circumstances under which this impression is made are fairly diverse and often extermely subtle, but the 'not good enough' is (pretty much) univerally the reason a child first adopts the facade personality.

It's done in trust so is considered to be true...

OK thanks egoic human love it is ....

[Gem]

OK thanks egoic human love it is ....

I don't know what that is, but I do know that segregation love into various catagories, cheifly 'unconditional' and 'conditional' (egoic) has no bearing on anything which pertains to humanity... it is just a simple little quip that fallaciously suggests there are two loves and it entirely ignores that love is felt and expressed in a myriad of ways.

Which of these millions of ways love is fits the 'unconditional' and which of them fit the 'conditional' (egoic) boxes? That becomes a bit of a problem doesn't it?

These imagined and fake dual catagories are shallow meaningless twaddle, and nothing I say should be used to support such delusions..

[Spiritlite]

Beautiful thread I feel not loving oneself is an issue all have. And the cause of so many unhealthy behaviors.

[Gem]

Beautiful thread I feel not loving oneself is an issue all have. And the cause of so many unhealthy behaviors.

Ok, Loving the self. We like to just put that forward as though it just that simple, but in real life it isn't.

Love is already the primal inate quality of being human, so humans actually can't love themselves more, all a man can do is intentionally alter the thought occurance of himself and about himself.

I have dug deep into what it is that makes me so angry cruel and neglectful... and the real psychosis of believing I was already a ghost, everyone can hear my thoughts, and they can tell how truely hateful I am... One would come and say 'just love yourself' as though I could buy 'self love' pills at any convenience store.

The problem is ... mental problems that create misery aren't that easy to resolve and it takes a lot to overcome negative feelings, it takes everything you've got and it doesn't come easy.... (but i think people prefer the sugar coated pills)

[not human]

Ok, Loving the self. We like to just put that forward as though it just that simple, but in real life it isn't.

Love is already the primal inate quality of being human, so humans actually can't love themselves more, all a man can do is intentionally alter the thought occurance of himself and about himself.

I have dug deep into what it is that makes me so angry cruel and neglectful... and the real psychosis of believing I was already a ghost, everyone can hear my thoughts, and they can tell how truely hateful I am... One would come and say 'just love yourself' as though I could buy 'self love' pills at any convenience store.

The problem is ... mental problems that create misery aren't that easy to resolve and it takes a lot to overcome negative feelings, it takes everything you've got and it doesn't come easy.... (but i think people prefer the sugar coated pills)
Not me. Suck it in once & its gone forever. Keep it at bay & its always at arms length. Having said that I do have a lot of compassion for anyone who goes on the meds. It's a toughest thing when the monsters come a knocking.

[sound]

In the heart of self definition there is a fundamental belief which amounts to not being good enough, leading to the assumption of being unworthy of love.

Not being lovable (as a belief) prevents ones from feeling loved and there's a whole bag of evidence that validates that core fundamental belief. By holding that belief one is always trying and striving to do something that makes them acceptable... but eventually they become exhausted and collapse into an overpowering lethargy, because they have to stop to realize... 'you don't have to do anything to be acceptable'.

The human organizm is so interactive. The thought makes an emotion which manifests sensationally in the body... the mind reacts to the sensation and the emotional cycle repeats and deepens, becoming more ingrained.

To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth and anything that refutes it is bulldust.

Knowing that... and it can't be denied; the fallacy of not being good enough, acceptable or lovable begins to crumble... and what's true shines through more and more.

Yeah ... beliefs are so 'seemingly' powerful. I say seemingly because, once they are not 'upheld' they are like the whitewash of what 'was' some great powerful wave ... behavioral patterns associated with beliefs can 'seem' so ingrained, however, is there any truth in the saying ... 'all that can be created can be uncreated?' ... seeming/ly ... thats my new word for the week :hug3: ...

[andrew g]

In the heart of self definition there is a fundamental belief which amounts to not being good enough, leading to the assumption of being unworthy of love.

Not being lovable (as a belief) prevents ones from feeling loved and there's a whole bag of evidence that validates that core fundamental belief. By holding that belief one is always trying and striving to do something that makes them acceptable... but eventually they become exhausted and collapse into an overpowering lethargy, because they have to stop to realize... 'you don't have to do anything to be acceptable'.

The human organizm is so interactive. The thought makes an emotion which manifests sensationally in the body... the mind reacts to the sensation and the emotional cycle repeats and deepens, becoming more ingrained.

To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth and anything that refutes it is bulldust.

Knowing that... and it can't be denied; the fallacy of not being good enough, acceptable or lovable begins to crumble... and what's true shines through more and more.

If this was facebook, I would hit the ''like'' button right now. I havent got much to say so instead I will do this........:icon_sunny:

[Gem]

Yeah ... beliefs are so 'seemingly' powerful. I say seemingly because, once they are not 'upheld' they are like the whitewash of what 'was' some great powerful wave ... behavioral patterns associated with beliefs can 'seem' so ingrained, however, is there any truth in the saying ... 'all that can be created can be uncreated?' ... seeming/ly ... thats my new word for the week :hug3: ...

They can be considered powerful, but it is more accurate to say they are very deeply ingrained, so well practiced they are perfectly honed and become instinctivly immediate.

To not uphold them is to know they are untrue...

To know the truth is what is going on here isn't it? How can there be self honesty if this is about something other than the truth?

At the base of it is the fundamental truth which sounds something like 'I love all things with complete purity'... but it a wholsome feeling, not words.

[sound]

They can be considered powerful, but it is more accurate to say they are very deeply ingrained, so well practiced they are perfectly honed and become instinctivly immediate.

To not uphold them is to know they are untrue...

To know the truth is what is going on here isn't it? How can there be self honesty if this is about something other than the truth?

At the base of it is the fundamental truth which sounds something like 'I love all things with complete purity'... but it a wholsome feeling, not words.

yeah most definitely .... words get in the way sometimes ... theres a song in that lol :hug3:

[Gem]

If this was facebook, I would hit the ''like'' button right now. I havent got much to say so instead I will do this........:icon_sunny:

I appreciate that very much thank you.

[Gem]

yeah most definitely .... words get in the way sometimes ... theres a song in that lol :hug3:

I'll make you a dedication of it inspired one.

[sound]

I'll make you a dedication of it inspired one.
That would be a first lol I look forward to it gem :)

[Xan]

Gem: To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth and anything that refutes it is bulldust.

Yes. Accepting that we are loved and lovable is a great challenge, given our personal histories in this world.

The challenge is to face it head-on through all the learned self-negating parts of our minds.

One way it can be done is with a leap into finding the feeling of accepting in ourselves where it's been hidden, and letting this spread into the parts of us that don't yet believe it.

I took this as a practice some time ago... breathing accepting throughout myself.

With accepting we can allow self-appreciation and love to expand.


Xan

[mattie]

Our feeling that we are not good enough isn't the the natural state of self, but there is no question that a poor sense of self is widespread & a serious issue for many.

It was presented as fact for millennia by organized religion that we are inherently flawed & sooooooo much lesser than our heavenly superiors. These ideas run really deep, often filtering into post-organized religion spiritual thought, so it isn't a surprise that this is an issue for many.

The inherently flawed human is really passe disinformation. We are OK now & always were.

You’re Spot On about our having to move into a position of self worth that is beyond it being an intellectual exercise. This speaks to the multiple stages we encounter w/ all new beliefs. First we explore new ideas, choosing those that are useful for us, then learn about them, then believe it. This is step 1. Then we integrate or merge w/ it, fully incorporating it into our psyche in a completely separate step.

Many have doubted their beliefs when they didn’t realize that these are separate steps. For instance, one can really believe that it is productive to move past fear, yet still feel fear. Sometimes we then doubt our belief’s validity, not understanding that we’ve not yet completed the next separate step of merging fully w/ this belief. Have patience & persevere.

The self love can be further distilled down to JOY. Past loving self or self worth we can have a fundamental JOY about just being us.

[Gem]

Gem: To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth and anything that refutes it is bulldust.

Yes. Accepting that we are loved and lovable is a great challenge, given our personal histories in this world.

The challenge is to face it head-on through all the learned self-negating parts of our minds.

One way it can be done is with a leap into finding the feeling of accepting in ourselves where it's been hidden, and letting this spread into the parts of us that don't yet believe it.

I took this as a practice some time ago... breathing accepting throughout myself.

With accepting we can allow self-appreciation and love to expand.


Xan

You think you can come along and validate the things I say... and cap it off with some spiritual sounding tinkle bells... but I'm far deeper than your regular new age ditz and not distracted by this soothing airy insence smoke which only conceals the existing odor.

[Gem]

Our feeling that we are not good enough isn't the the natural state of self, but there is no question that a poor sense of self is widespread & a serious issue for many.

It was presented as fact for millennia by organized religion that we are inherently flawed & sooooooo much lesser than our heavenly superiors. These ideas run really deep, often filtering into post-organized religion spiritual thought, so it isn't a surprise that this is an issue for many.

The inherently flawed human is really passe disinformation. We are OK now & always were.

You’re Spot On about our having to move into a position of self worth that is beyond it being an intellectual exercise. This speaks to the multiple stages we encounter w/ all new beliefs. First we explore new ideas, choosing those that are useful for us, then learn about them, then believe it. This is step 1. Then we integrate or merge w/ it, fully incorporating it into our psyche in a completely separate step.

Many have doubted their beliefs when they didn’t realize that these are separate steps. For instance, one can really believe that it is productive to move past fear, yet still feel fear. Sometimes we then doubt our belief’s validity, not understanding that we’ve not yet completed the next separate step of merging fully w/ this belief. Have patience & persevere.

The self love can be further distilled down to JOY. Past loving self or self worth we can have a fundamental JOY about just being us.

Spot on? I'm not advocating a load of spiritual whitewash here y'know. Belief doesn't have validity at all. Is it really prudent to go about trying to convince yourself of a positive belief just to mask what is actually a negative belief? I say NO!

What the truth is.

There was this really flakey person named something Byron or Byron something... I can't remember exactly, but she pretended to have all the answers and offered this 'cure all' philosophy in one of those silly self help books... very popular it was too.

Basically it examined things like beliefs such as 'If I had a boyfriend I'd be happy' then question if that is true, and I guess it is effective for these superficial issues, but to look at the depth of what is the thought of YoU and what surrounds that thought is a matter of subconsciousness... people tend to feel the symptom of misery, have an extreme adverse reaction it, and run off looking for new age loving comfort, and in so doing, avoid conscious cognition of the truth, but I'm talking about facing the truth.

[Xan]

You think you can come along and validate the things I say... and cap it off with some spiritual sounding tinkle bells... but I'm far deeper than your regular new age ditz and not distracted by this soothing airy insence smoke which only conceals the existing odor.

Gee Gem... You're doing well at demonstrating how people who don't love themselves act. :rolleyes:

I love you anyway.


Xan

[moke64916]

I sense a tired, exhausted, sick of it type of energy. Your experience has led you to write this thread. Are you in control of these feelings now? Do you 'feel' lovable?

[Lazarus72]

I wonder if the point is, that primarily there needs to be acceptance that We all need to find our own way, and first and foremost, to just be true to our ourselves. That too much emphasis on trying to please others, or meeting expectations can be unhealthy.... or somat like that.

Reminded Me of this quote for some reason actually;


"You can explore the universe looking for somebody who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and you will not find that person anywhere".

- Buddha




.....Just in case though, .... I love You like a brutha from anuthamutha man, hehe. :smile:

[Gem]

I sense a tired, exhausted, sick of it type of energy. Your experience has led you to write this thread. Are you in control of these feelings now? Do you 'feel' lovable?

Is that what you sense or do you really mean to to tell me I'm tired sick exhausted kind of person, because I equally could say something like that directly to a person and be quite unreasonable, but your delivery is covered in a spiritual slime so it kinda slithers by, pretending to be kind.

[Xan]

Don't mind him, moke... He's just having one of his cynical hostile days. :icon_frown:


Xan

[Silver]

I wonder if the point is, that primarily there needs to be acceptance that We all need to find our own way, and first and foremost, to just be true to our ourselves. That too much emphasis on trying to please others, or meeting expectations can be unhealthy.... or somat like that.

Reminded Me of this quote for some reason actually;


"You can explore the universe looking for somebody who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and you will not find that person anywhere".

- Buddha




.....Just in case though, .... I love You like a brutha from anuthamutha man, hehe. :smile:


Gosh, I'm really impressed with Buddha. That's an amazing quote. It really hits the spot~*

[Gem]

I wonder if the point is, that primarily there needs to be acceptance that We all need to find our own way, and first and foremost, to just be true to our ourselves. That too much emphasis on trying to please others, or meeting expectations can be unhealthy.... or somat like that.

Reminded Me of this quote for some reason actually;


"You can explore the universe looking for somebody who is more deserving of your love and affection than you are yourself, and you will not find that person anywhere".

- Buddha




.....Just in case though, .... I love You like a brutha from anuthamutha man, hehe. :smile:

Of course... if the parent or the society or the religion or any other thing gives the impression that you are not lovable, not good enough... then you will begin to strive to fulfil what you believe is expected. Endeavour to do the things that please so you can live up to the standard by which you are deemed lovable or good enough.

Should I now try to meet Moke's approval? Act as though I'm Xan? Say cute spiritual sounding things out my craving for their love and acceptance? (and the rest of people on this site?)

I don't think you love me like a brother. I know how I love my brother. You just have a compassion for humanity in general and I'm human as any other. Your brother, that's a different particulur thing...

[Gem]

Don't mind him, moke... He's just having one of his cynical hostile days. :icon_frown:


Xan

You think you know what's what... but you just make up ridiculous insinuations. They make me seem hostile and cynical... if you see more carefully I made no remark which pertains to any persons nature, and if i did I would do so directly, but yourself and moke make judgements as to my nature. See for yourself.

Am I to be fooled that Moke's statement was not a judjement about me personally just because she/he puffed up a cloud of "I can Sense the energy"... clearly she means me... and you really mean to say I am hostile and cynical... now be honest Xan, who is really being insulting and hostile?

[not human]

Mate ...you will probably bite my head off & you know what ...I don't care.....but I really enjoy the directions you go :)

Be Reasonably Well

[Xan]

now be honest Xan, who is really being insulting and hostile?

You are, my friend. I've seen you in moods like this many times over the years, and despite your belittling and apparent resentment of anyone's genuine spiritual awakenings, in this community you find acceptance. It's a good thing.


Xan

[Silver]

Society in general isn't allowing individuals to grow from within and uniquely express themself. We expect to depend on others and the status quo to superficially approve our worth.



From page 1, I just re-read the thread (thank god it isn't too long yet). I liked this, it stood out.

[Gem]

You are, my friend. I've seen you in moods like this many times over the years, and despite your belittling and apparent resentment of anyone's genuine spiritual awakenings, in this community you find acceptance. It's a good thing.


Xan

This is how it really is. The things that were said about me is: cynical hostile tired exhausted and sick. That is in two posts. One yours and one mokes, so stop pretending it's anything to do with me, my moods and the rest of the tall story you feed on.

[Gem]

Mate ...you will probably bite my head off & you know what ...I don't care.....but I really enjoy the directions you go :)

Be Reasonably Well

Why would I? Are you inventing dramatic episodes about me? I don't think you are and I doubt you would... I don't invent anything about you or xan or anyone.

You understand very clearly anyway. I could tell from a comment you made when u first joined.

[Gem]

You are, my friend. I've seen you in moods like this many times over the years, and despite your belittling and apparent resentment of anyone's genuine spiritual awakenings, in this community you find acceptance. It's a good thing.


Xan

Is it not you and moke who are belittling me? sick tired exhaused hostile and cynical old me?

[not human]

Why would I? Are you inventing dramatic episodes about me? I don't think you are and I doubt you would... I don't invent anything about you or xan or anyone.

You understand very clearly anyway. I could tell from a comment you made when u first joined.

Thats why I prempted it ...I sincerley enjoy the fact that you enjoy your humaness mate...it's refreshing :D

[Gem]

Thats why I prempted it ...I sincerley enjoy the fact that you enjoy your humaness mate...it's refreashing :D

That makes me smile.

In the thread I'm only trying to narrow down what it is... as a fundamental cause... the sourse of negative feelings... self hatreds rather.

It makes me uncomfortable knowing there are some who like to scrutinize every word and form judgements as to my own personal condition, but I just have to endure it, otherwize I couldn't speak freely.

People have a great preference toward the light and loving... but I have no care for preferences. I can't pretend that humanity is loving caring compassionate when in so many ways they aren't.

Now, all I do is attempt to reveal what it is that makes people so bloody miserable. It isn't about me or you and it isn't a woo woo so spiritual thing that obscures the truth. It's the truth as it is, the one anyone has to face.

I don't like it being a judgement about me, and damned if I'll take that lying down.

You see for yourself where the name calling and personal insinuations is coming from.

[arive nan]

If you want to promote a message that people are acceptable and loved beyond measure, and they don't need to do anything to be acceptable, then it would not help to weaken that message by telling people that you are deeper than them and that they are "new age ditz" and also imply that they smell bad...

If one does not need to do anything to be acceptable, and the truth is that people are accepted and loved... then those who speak in the manner that you describe as new age ditz would also be acceptable and loved beyond measure as they are, pretty language and judgments and stinky slime and all. But you have shown that you do not find some of their characteristics acceptable. You have demonstrated the flaw in your own argument.

Acceptability and lovability are like beauty. It is in the eye of the beholder. Without some beholder to perceive these qualities, there would be no such thing as acceptability, lovability, or beauty. These cannot really be intrinsic qualities because they cannot exist independently of a being that perceives these qualities or the lack of them. And different beings will have different opinions about the acceptability, and lovability, and beauty of the same person. People can perceive themselves as acceptable and lovable and beautiful, and that can to some extent persuade some others to have the same opinion. But it will not persuade everyone. Life would be more enjoyable if one sees oneself as acceptable and lovable and beautiful. It is still a matter of ones own opinion and some will disagree with it.

Perhaps there really is an omnipresent being that regards everyone and everything as acceptable and lovable and beautiful. If so I have encountered this being. I believe in it. But it would still be a being. A beholder. And these qualities would still not be intrinsic but matters of opinion.

[Gem]

If you want to promote a message that people are acceptable and loved beyond measure, and they don't need to do anything to be acceptable, then it would not help to weaken that message by telling people that you are deeper than them and that they are "new age ditz" and also imply that they smell bad...

I said 'I'm not your typical new age ditz'. You just take it out of the context and pretend I directed it at someone. I could have said 'I'm not a nazi' that doesn't mean I'm calling anyone that.


If one does not need to do anything to be acceptable, and the truth is that people are accepted and loved... then those who speak in the manner that you describe as new age ditz would also be acceptable and loved beyond measure as they are, pretty language and judgments and stinky slime and all. But you have shown that you do not find some of their characteristics acceptable. You have demonstrated the flaw in your own argument.

You see for yourself what moke was insinuating ... it really was an underhand (slimy) delivery of insults indirectly attributed to 'sense of energy'... meaning me.

You can see who makes up the stories and who makes personal. Even though it's disguised under a spiritual facade (and delivered like slime), you can see.

Acceptability and lovability are like beauty. It is in the eye of the beholder. Without some beholder to perceive these qualities, there would be no such thing as acceptability, lovability, or beauty. These cannot really be intrinsic qualities because they cannot exist independently of a being that perceives these qualities or the lack of them. And different beings will have different opinions about the acceptability, and lovability, and beauty of the same person. People can perceive themselves as acceptable and lovable and beautiful, and that can to some extent persuade some others to have the same opinion. But it will not persuade everyone. Life would be more enjoyable if one sees oneself as acceptable and lovable and beautiful. It is still a matter of ones own opinion and some will disagree with it.

Perhaps there really is an omnipresent being that regards everyone and everything as acceptable and lovable and beautiful. If so I have encountered this being. I believe in it. But it would still be a being. A beholder. And these qualities would still not be intrinsic but matters of opinion.

A matter of opinion is an understatement. It's an ingrained belief. There is a whole pile of evidence that supports it. It's practiced so well it just occurs instinctively. It started a long time ago and has been built upon, re-enforced, re-affirmed... If it is an opinion it's a very very strong one... enough that ones become sure it is true.

[arive nan]

Feeling sure that something is true does not necessarily mean that it is true. Many people have felt very strongly certain of things that turned out to be incorrect. Being acceptable and lovable would only be absolute truths if they were true independently of a beholder or observer to perceive those qualities. In a void where there are no beholders, there is no acceptability or unacceptability, no lovability or unlovability, no beauty or ugliness. What is intrinsic is the lack of any of these qualities or their opposites.

[Gem]

Feeling sure that something is true does not necessarily mean that it is true. Many people have felt very strongly certain of things that turned out to be incorrect. Being acceptable and lovable would only be absolute truths if they were true independently of a beholder or observer to perceive those qualities. In a void where there are no beholders, there is no acceptability or unacceptability, no lovability or unlovability, no beauty or ugliness. What is intrinsic is the lack of any of these qualities or their opposites.

I can't talk about a void or any quality thereof. It's this life the mind the body the awareness and the belief and what the truth is.

[arive nan]

If it is only true under the condition of being in this life and mind and body, then it is conditional. Something conditional is not absolute truth.

[arive nan]

My point is, you say "To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth"

But we have seen here that this is not the truth. I have witnessed exceptions to this. There are people who see themselves as acceptable and lovable and loved... and some people detest them. There are people who are loved by many, but they don't see themselves as lovable. And someone who truly believes that people are absolutely acceptable and lovable and that's just the truth wouldn't ever complain about anyone. People don't find people to be absolutely acceptable or lovable as a known truth. People don't usually find themselves that way. Yet love and acceptance sometimes happen among people.

Acceptable and lovable are not the way people are. That is only the way some people think some people are. And they might have that opinion even if the person has the opposite opinion of themselves.

[Gem]

If it is only true under the condition of being in this life and mind and body, then it is conditional. Something conditional is not absolute truth.

I'm only talking about the truth, you know the truth which allows such a thing as honesty.

[Gem]

My point is, you say "To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth"

But we have seen here that this is not the truth. I have witnessed exceptions to this. There are people who see themselves as acceptable and lovable and loved... and some people detest them. There are people who are loved by many, but they don't see themselves as lovable. And someone who truly believes that people are absolutely acceptable and lovable and that's just the truth wouldn't ever complain about anyone. People don't find people to be absolutely acceptable or lovable as a known truth. People don't usually find themselves that way. Yet love and acceptance sometimes happen among people.

Acceptable and lovable are not the way people are. That is only the way some people think some people are. And they might have that opinion even if the person has the opposite opinion of themselves.

I know people hatethemselves in various ways, and you yourself said these are opinions, but I go furthur than that and say the self deflating belief is untrue.

The truth is something that has to be admitted, and belief is something that has to be invented.

A belief is built on either blind faith, like a religious belief, or on a mountain of evidence, events which lead to some self pertinant assumption... or even just a brainwashing by being repeatedly told how worthless you are.

I mean, we must already recognize the causes of these hatreds in the general sense, but each person has their own particular circumstantial bag of memories which perpeteuate the self hatred.

[Lazarus72]

I don't think you love me like a brother. I know how I love my brother. You just have a compassion for humanity in general and I'm human as any other. Your brother, that's a different particulur thing...


Well, of course You're right, it was kinda intended lightheartedly, but yet without ruling out as a potential ideal. :hug3:

[Gem]

Well, of course You're right, it was kinda intended lightheartedly, but yet without ruling out as a potential ideal. :hug3:

I know it was lighthearted... so didn't mind at all... but since it came up, I want to talk about the fable of love.

As you come across the spiritualists you come across those who are experts in love who deem themselves to dictate to others what is real love, whot is ego love and what is unconditional love.

My own experience is they try to convince others that the love they feel and express is not real because the is some attachment going on... but you know you are attached when it breaks up and your heart gets broken... that's real, everyone has this experience in one way or another... but the spiritualist will say it's only ego bla bla puke etc...

One must consider what attachment really means, it doesn't seem like the enemy to me. Sure enough I will attach and also be hurt by that, and believe you me I have been devistated before, but still remain fearless and I don't mind the pain, because how deeply you love someone, like your brother, lover or family, is many years of sharing and influencing and becoming interwoven... like your arm is interwoven with your shoulder, and it hurts to have your arm torn away.

[mattie]

Spot on? I'm not advocating a load of spiritual whitewash here y'know. Belief doesn't have validity at all. Is it really prudent to go about trying to convince yourself of a positive belief just to mask what is actually a negative belief? I say NO!
...
There was this really flakey person... she pretended to have all the answers and offered this 'cure all' philosophy in one of those silly self help books... .
... run off looking for new age loving comfort, and in so doing, avoid conscious cognition of the truth, but I'm talking about facing the truth.

I’ll take your assessment that you seem to be saying that you were not ‘Spot On.’

I’m not ‘advocating a load of spiritual whitewash’ either, but discussing the stages of how we move into beliefs from learning them to fully integrating them. That fully merging w/ a belief isn't an intellectual exercise. I don’t have a negative view of beliefs. Some beliefs are useful, others aren’t. The key to their being useful is our maintaining the flexibility to change them as we expand

There are no shortage of flakey people w/ information that is not useful in all areas of spirituality. So what. This means nothing & doesn’t affect the validity of those who have useful information. Use what is useful for you.

Those of all types who claim to have all the answers seldom have the answers to very much as all.

The way to deal w/ negative beliefs isn’t to paste an energetic smiley face of positivity on them, but to deal w/ them one on one. There are many in the area of New Age beliefs that are advocates of dealing w/ reality.

You seem to have some hostility about ‘new age loving comfort’ seeing it as avoidance. Some may use New Age beliefs as avoidance. There are many New Age teachers who have moved waaaaaay past the pasting the love smiley face on problems to being powerful advocates for taking charge & moving into real empowerment. If these beliefs aren’t useful for you, use whatever ones are.

Organized religion often teaches the ultimate avoidance, urging people to look at their being saved as the pay off for their misery here. This, coupled w/ teaching that we are inherently flawed, inferior to our spiritual superiors, & incapable of dealing w/ our spiritual advancement are a handy bundle of disempowerment.

It is a very mainstream New Age belief that one is ‘entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure.’ This is often expanded to being that we can move into us accepting our self & loving our self ‘beyond measure.’

There also seems to be some hostility about self help books. While some of these aren’t great, many are, urging people to take charge of their own issues & do something about them, moving out of disempowerment. What is utterly simplistic laughable drivel for one person w/ a self help book may be exactly what someone else needs to move out of their current stage into a more productive one.

[Gem]

I’ll take your assessment that you seem to be saying that you were not ‘Spot On.’

I’m not ‘advocating a load of spiritual whitewash’ either, but discussing the stages of how we move into beliefs from learning them to fully integrating them. I don’t have a negative view of beliefs. Some beliefs are useful, others aren’t. The key to their being useful is our maintaining the flexibility to change them as we expand

There are no shortage of flakey people w/ information that is not useful in all areas of spirituality. So what. This means nothing & doesn’t affect the validity of those who have useful information. Use what is useful for you.

Those of all types who claim to have all the answers seldom have the answers to very much as all.

The way to deal w/ negative beliefs isn’t to paste an energetic smiley face of positivity on them, but to deal w/ them one on one. There are many in the area of New Age beliefs that are advocates of dealing w/ reality.

You seem to have some hostility about ‘new age loving comfort’ seeing it as avoidance. Some may use New Age beliefs as avoidance. There are many New Age teachers who have moved waaaaaay past the pasting the love smiley face on problems to being powerful advocates for taking charge & moving into real empowerment. If these beliefs aren’t useful for you, use whatever ones are.

Organized religion often teaches the ultimate avoidance, urging people to look at their being saved as the pay off for their misery here. This, coupled w/ teaching that we are inherently flawed, inferior to our spiritual superiors, & incapable of dealing w/ our spiritual advancement are a handy bundle of disempowerment.

It is a very mainstream New Age belief that one is ‘entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure.’ This is often expanded to being that we can move into us accepting our self & loving our self ‘beyond measure.’

There also seems to be some hostility about self help books. While some of these aren’t great, many are, urging people to take charge of their own issues & do something about them, moving out of disempowerment. What is utterly simplistic laughable drivel for one person w/ a self help book may be exactly what someone else needs to move out of their current stage into a more productive one.

Yes people insist I'm hostile and repeat it tirelessly I notice, and in this thread I like to bring forth how the nice facade doesn't effectively hide the way personal judgements are bandied about.

Hostile and a whole bunch more and not in the least 'sick' are all directed toward me under the guise of niceness.

Maybe I'm just more realistic and have no pretention of nicity, but you'd be damn hard pressed to find a personal remark I made about any member.

I think ACIM is more a comedy and Doreen Virtue must be taking the same drugs as me... so people like them OK. I don't like them... but I read a bit of krishnamurti because he's damn good. (I listen to pink floyd and not britney spears).

I'm not spot on... I know what I'm talking about... and I know where I'm going with it... but it kinda drifts off into a spiritual fog... I'm talking about a universal thing which is central to low esteem... not about me,but a universally applicable facet which lies at the heart of misery, failure... all negitivity... it's the 'not good enough' which is the same as the 'not lovable'.

Then to see these are beliefs, which have a pile of evidence to support them, but you want to kill the lie then you shoot for the heart of it.

[Dragonfly1]

In the heart of self definition there is a fundamental belief which amounts to not being good enough, leading to the assumption of being unworthy of love.

Not being lovable (as a belief) prevents ones from feeling loved and there's a whole bag of evidence that validates that core fundamental belief. By holding that belief one is always trying and striving to do something that makes them acceptable... but eventually they become exhausted and collapse into an overpowering lethargy, because they have to stop to realize... 'you don't have to do anything to be acceptable'.

The human organizm is so interactive. The thought makes an emotion which manifests sensationally in the body... the mind reacts to the sensation and the emotional cycle repeats and deepens, becoming more ingrained.

To be lovable... one has to accept, not at the intellectual level, but as a bare faced admission of the truth that they are entirely acceptable and loved beyond measure... That's the truth and anything that refutes it is bulldust.

Knowing that... and it can't be denied; the fallacy of not being good enough, acceptable or lovable begins to crumble... and what's true shines through more and more.
This is so true Gem, I am a guilty party of 'not good enough' all my life I've felt not worthy......it all stems back to childhood and not getting the attention that I so dearly deserved from my emotionally crippled parents.

I grew up thinking that I wasn't worthy of love because they didnt give it to me, and now understand that they did love me, they just didn't know how to express that love to another....however in saying that.......

I had no idea why I felt unworthy at the time and during my growing and adult years........it is only since I became aware of my spirituality that I discovered i am worthy of love from others and from myself especially......(still struggling to give it to myself by the way).....
I looked at my parents from a different perspective, one of 'damaged individuals' who became that way from 'lack' from their parents and the horrors of their lives.....
So now I understand, that no matter what, I am worthy, people do love me for who I am, not who they want me to be.......and I know I am universally loved, whether others agree with that concept or not.......I know it, I just have to convince my human self of it....hahaha.........Peace xx

[Gem]

This is so true Gem, I am a guilty party of 'not good enough' all my life I've felt not worthy......it all stems back to childhood and not getting the attention that I so dearly deserved from my emotionally crippled parents.

I grew up thinking that I wasn't worthy of love because they didnt give it to me, and now understand that they did love me, they just didn't know how to express that love to another....however in saying that.......

I had no idea why I felt unworthy at the time and during my growing and adult years........it is only since I became aware of my spirituality that I discovered i am worthy of love from others and from myself especially......(still struggling to give it to myself by the way).....
I looked at my parents from a different perspective, one of 'damaged individuals' who became that way from 'lack' from their parents and the horrors of their lives.....
So now I understand, that no matter what, I am worthy, people do love me for who I am, not who they want me to be.......and I know I am universally loved, whether others agree with that concept or not.......I know it, I just have to convince my human self of it....hahaha.........Peace xx

It's not you particularly. Take any newborn and subject him/her to conditions and he/she will 'form' under those conditions.

I can't help what I am now, I'm the product of my past...

In a place like this forum... people know just about everything, but for example, what I say is not true because Mattie deems it 'spot on' or because it meets Xan's approval.

It's true because you and I live it, and it isn't 'your truth' or mine. Everyone lives it and it's the human condition.

We recognise, not as our intellectual philosophy, but as a realization, that what is true is very different to our human conditioning, and our self opinion is really a fallacious belief.

It doesn't really matter if we hold negative self opinions or elated opinions of vanity... because 'positive thinking' can inflate a big balloon which will only burst later on too.

I was wondering why no one responded to your post... I waited to see.

I'm not speaking of absolute Truth or God or anything like that. The truth is no more than self honesty. Integrity. To see what is.

Dang... I'm trying to say something difficult to express... The truthfulness of inquiry doesn't bring you anything. It removes the falsity of self opinion. What is true is there already.

PS reminds me of this video (start at 1minute 11 seconds) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odWIPhj-ivo