Satan, The ID, Dark Side, et al

[seeker786]

Beware the dragon
A dangerous foe

Many have fallen
To his cunning show

He moves in shadow
So you can’t see

He lays beautified traps
In which you wish to be

With a golden tounge
He would like to win

If you want to stop
He whispers begin

With a single look
He can mesmerize

Heinous acts you’ll do
When you’re hypnotized

Shimmering scales cover rotten flesh
He can catch you soul with a silken mesh

Beware of it’s form
A sinuous shape

Beware of it’s crime
Which turn men to apes

Beware of the cracks
Which open your soul

To attacks from him
Your pearl is his goal.

[seeker786]

As an avid reader of all things, I came across an interesting verse from the Bible:

For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

(Ephesians 6:12)

And this from the Quran:

O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that be might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

(The Heights 7:27)


What is your opinion of Satan?

[mattie]

Satan is a construct of particular religions.

Some religions have worked really hard for millennia to try to convince us that negative energies are more powerful than us & that we are powerless against them. Complete disinformation to keep us being the fearful faithful flock & reliant on them to protect us from Satan. Read: Keep tithing.

Negative energies aren’t more powerful than us. They are really pitifully weak.

Vetting Nonphysical Entities-
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=156097&posted=1#post156097

Negative Spirits Or Just Our Imagination-
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=19290

[Arlan Lares]

Further to the above (with which I generally agree) Satan and demons were used in propaganda by followers of the Abrahamic faiths to (literally) demonise the gods of paganism. Satan is a caricature of "evil" rebellion against God. Ultimately it's a way of implying than any form of religion, besides Abrahamic monotheism, is devilry. Satan does not exist, except as a character in propaganda fiction.

[seahorse]

I wholeheartedly agree with Mattie and Arlan, and to take it one step further, Ultimately it's a way of implying than any form of rebellion against the Authority (who is invariably befriended by the church) is "evil" in nature. Adam and Eve seeked knowledge, they were expelled from "heaven". Prometheus gave people fire, he was chained in a mountain. Lesson : Don't mess with the Authority, don't seek knowledge except the one we provide. Yeah right !
The word religion is derived from the latin re-ligare meaning to connect or to bind. Our mind. Never mind !
As for negative energies being pitifully weak, i have often heard we shouldn't think of negative entities because they will manifest themselves then. If so, do they need our power to do so ?
And isn't the fear and guilt induced by the church a negative energy ?

[002 Cents]

Interesting conversation...

[Time]

Satan was a helper to god in the OT. THe romans needed a scapegoat to demonize pagan religions. Baal, is deamonized, so is astrological references.

"O lucifer, or mornign star" is in JOB, and is refering to the king of babylon ( the beginningof the texts states this). Any reference to "morning" or "evening" star, or "bright star of the morning"etc are all references to venus worship.

So in the NT, somehow satan is made to be the devil, even though theres no corresponding text stating how. Same with lucifer. So satanism, and lucifernians are grossly mislead. Their religion unfortunatly is based on lies in another cultrues religion.

The basis of this, when it goes far back, is that we have good and bad inside all of us. The thing is arewe going to let "the devil" play, as in destroying the earth, eachother and everything around us? OR do we let "god" win, and create, love and experience?

[Etu Malku]

Satan is a personification of the Judaic word al-satan or ha-satan (who borrowed it from the Persians' Shaiten) meaning adversary. The word was used more as a descriptive noun or pronoun. A fallen tree preventing a husband from getting to his injured wife would be considered a tree of shaiten, more or less.

Shaiten did not become Satan until much later where Jewish sects / tribes particularly the Essenes began referring to anyone not an Essene as the Shaiten/ha satan.

Still further on, the Roman Christian church decided it was time to personify Shaiten into Satan and have Him become the scapegoat for all evil in the Christian world.

Lucifer on the other hand, is not an Adversary as the word Satan (Shaiten) describes. Lucifer is the 'Bringer of Light' in other words Lux Lucis (gnosis, truth and Divine knowledge).

Lucifer makes His metaphorical debut in the Testaments as the Serpent in the Garden of Eden pointing out to Eve that God is a liar and that she will not die that day if she eats of the fruit of knowledge, which she does and does not die.

Lucifer brought us Truth and our Free Will, shows us the way to either be One with God or to be a God ourselves. Through Lucifer's spirit humanity first climbed down from the trees and has represented the flow of progress ever since.

But Lucifer may be more than a metaphor for rebellion, enlightenment and advancement - as the pure creative and motive light, Lucifer may actually be the key to life itself . . .

The DNA within the nuclei of all cells of living creatures contains biophotons or ultra-weak proton emissions - in other words, light! A dynamic web of light constantly released and absorbed by the DNA connects cells, tissues and organs and serve as the organism's main communication network.

Lucifer is on the move inside you and me, chattering between cell and cell, rousing the cohorts of the life-force, keeping us alive and wonderful.

As Aleister Crowley penned "Every man and woman is a star"

***Now we know we all have our own inner light.

[Etu Malku]

Edit . . . nevermind

[Etu Malku]

So satanism, and lucifernians are grossly mislead. Their religion unfortunatly is based on lies in another cultrues religion.Please read the article I wrote above.

I couldn't disagree with you more, Satanism has nothing to do with the Abrahamic religions, and Luciferianism (which is my Belief) even Less to do with them. Both are as far from the lies, manipulation and delusion that Abrahamic religions bring into this world, and are based on sound philosophies and practices with little to nothing to do with dogma, faith, absurd mythology, or irrational thinking as the Abrahamic religions are based on.

[Time]

21st - First off, that is an awsome song LOL, you reminded me of it, its been eyar since ive heard it LOL

Lucifer on the other hand, is not an Adversary as the word Satan (Shaiten) describes. Lucifer is the 'Bringer of Light' in other words Lux Lucis (gnosis, truth and Divine knowledge).

THe only, and I mean ONLY refeence to ucifer in any bibilcal text, is the line refering the king of babylon (lucifer), and even then he usues an astrological reference to venus.

Oops, i said the bookw as Job, its issaiah. 14:12

" 12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"

Now that line alone, does sound like the devil... BUT, people tecd to forget the text before that

"1The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see." isaiah 13 1

"And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah." 19

4-13 "That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!

5The LORD hath broken the staff of the wicked, and the sceptre of the rulers.

6He who smote the people in wrath with a continual stroke, he that ruled the nations in anger, is persecuted, and none hindereth.

7The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet: they break forth into singing.

8Yea, the fir trees rejoice at thee, and the cedars of Lebanon, saying, Since thou art laid down, no feller is come up against us.

9Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

10All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?

11Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.

12How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

13For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:"

I do agree with your reference to the morning star... but lets go even deeper...

wikipedia
"Traditionally, Lucifer (English pronunciation: /ˈluːsɪfər, ljuːsɪfər/) is a name that in English generally refers to the devil before being cast from heaven, although this is not the original meaning of the term. In Latin, from which the English word is derived, Lucifer means "light-bearer" (from the words lucem ferre). It was the name given to the dawn appearance of the planet Venus, which heralds daylight. For this meaning, English generally uses the names "Morning Star" or "Day Star", and rarely "Lucifer".
Use of the name "Lucifer" for the devil stems from a particular interpretation of Isaiah 14:3–20, a passage that does not speak of any fallen angel but of the defeat of a particular Babylonian King, to whom it gives a title that refers to what in English is called the Day Star or Morning Star (in Latin, lucifer).[2] In 2 Peter 1:19 and elsewhere, the same Latin word lucifer is used to refer to the Morning Star, with no relation to the devil. It is only in post-New Testament times that the Latin word Lucifer was used as a name for the devil, both in religious writing and in fiction, especially when referring to him prior to his fall from Heaven."

"An ancient myth[3] of the fall of angels, associated with the Morning Star, was transferred to the Devil, as seen in the Life of Adam and Eve and the Second Book of Enoch,[4] which the Jewish Encyclopedia attributes to the first pre-Christian century:[5] in these Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then, he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.[3]
Early Christian writers continued this identification of "Lucifer" with the Devil. Tertullian ("Contra Marcionem," v. 11, 17), Origen (Homilies on Ezekiel 13), and others, identify Lucifer with the Devil, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Revelation 12:7–10; cf. Luke 10:18).[3]
But today some contemporary exorcists and theologians, such as Father José Antonio Fortea and Father Amorth, asserted that Lucifer and the Devil are different beings.[6]
In the New Testament the "adversary" has many names, but "Lucifer" is not among them. He is called "Satan" (Matt. 4:10; Mark 1:13, 4:15; Luke 10:18), "devil" (Matt. 4:1), "adversary" (1. Peter 5:8, ἀντίδικος; 1. Tim. 5:14, ἀντικείμενος), "enemy" (Matt. 13:39), "accuser" (Rev. 12:10), "old serpent" (Rev. 20:2), "great dragon" (Rev. 12:9), Beelzebub (Matt. 10:25, 12:24), and Belial (comp. Samael). In Luke 10:18, John 12:31, 2. Cor. 6:16, and Rev. 12:9 the fall of Satan is mentioned. The devil is regarded as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19; Acts 5:3; 2. Cor. 11:3; Ephes. 2:2), who beguiled Eve (2. Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9). Because of Satan, death came into this world, being ever the tempter (1. Cor. 7:5; 1. Thess. 3:5; 1. Peter 5:8), even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. 4). The Christian demonology and belief in the devil dominated subsequent periods.[7] However, though the New Testament includes the conception that Satan fell from heaven "as lightning" (Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:7–10),[8] it nowhere applies the name Lucifer to him.
The Jewish Encyclopedia states that in the apocalyptic literature, the conception of fallen angels is widespread. Throughout antiquity, stars were commonly regarded as living celestial beings (Job 38:7).[8] Indications of belief in fallen angels, behind which probably lies the symbolizing of shooting stars, an astronomical phenomenon, are found in Isaiah 14:12."


So all in all, lucifernian traditions, are based on a slander, to the old traditions, and misunderstandings. Lucifer isnt the devil. And neither is satan. They are lies to smear the older traditions, like beezlebub, Baal, and even venus worship (some of the most importiant pagan traditions).

So. if im not mistakin, satanists and lucifernians are all based on the tradition that satan, and lucifer are the devil, defied got and showed people "the freedom of choice", though eve in the garden of eden. Unfortunatly, there is no proper links to satan/lucifer to the serpent in the OT. ITs only ever been assumed. When you go deep into it, theres no real connections, besides what the writeres ( or the people doctering the documents) felt right.

So lucifernians/satanism are sort of based on a person, who actualy had nothing to do with the stories mentioned. IF your a Lucifernian, you are by rights practicing venus worship. If you are asatanist, you are worshiping gods most trusted ali.

Now, dont think that im really trashing it. I fully agree what we know of abrahamic traditions are lost, scrablmed, fiolled with lies and plot holes. But that also means any tradition based off that information is just as flawed. Lucifernians tradidtions are based on the fact that he is the "devil", was cast down for being to "rebellious". But when you actualy look it up, it isnt true at all ( same with most of the stuff in the bible in general).

FYI, jesus was referenced to lucifer as well, in regards to the bright morning star.

[Etu Malku]

21st - First off, that is an awsome song LOL, you reminded me of it, its been eyar since ive heard it LOL Great tune, agreed!

THe only, and I mean ONLY refeence to ucifer in any bibilcal text, is the line refering the king of babylon (lucifer) . . . Yes, the only time the 'Word' Lucifer is mentioned is Isaiah 14:12, and you're correct it has nothing to do with the angel or archetype Lucifer


So all in all, lucifernian traditions, are based on a slander, to the old traditions, and misunderstandings. Lucifer isnt the devil. And neither is satan. They are lies to smear the older traditions, like beezlebub, Baal, and even venus worship (some of the most importiant pagan traditions).You entirely mistaken, the earliest Luciferian dogma (still connected to any Abrahamic beliefs) is with the Gnostics who recognized the god that created this universe is the Demiurge, and not the True God. Lucifer, as the Fallen Angel became a symbol for gnosis and Knowledge, as well as being placed as the pagan/ancient Serpent that divulges this information to Mankind therefore Freeing Mankind from the chains of an Evil god (Demiurge).

I agree that 'demonizing' Pagan Beliefs was at the forefront of Abrahamic revolution.

So. if im not mistakin, satanists and lucifernians are all based on the tradition that satan, and lucifer are the devil, defied got and showed people "the freedom of choice", though eve in the garden of eden. Unfortunatly, there is no proper links to satan/lucifer to the serpent in the OT. ITs only ever been assumed. When you go deep into it, theres no real connections, besides what the writeres ( or the people doctering the documents) felt right.Satanism as well as Luciferianism is entirely divorced from any such concepts of Abrahamism. 'Theistic' Satanism & Luciferianism perhaps adhere to these Abrahamic beliefs and in my opinion is where they fail. As for 'proper links' 'assumed' etc. I would direct you to the Gnostic Gospels of Nag Hammadi and more modern writings about Luciferianism, after all we are really only talking about 'writings' and Belief systems. I couldn't fathom the idea that anything has been written other than from Man.


FYI, jesus was referenced to lucifer as well, in regards to the bright morning star.Already knew that . . .
Isaiah 14:12
How you have fallen from heaven, O morning star, son of the dawn!
You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations!

Revelation 22:16,
"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

In Greek mythology, Hesperus (Roman equivalent: Vesper cf. "evening", "supper", "evening star", "west"), the Evening Star is the son of the dawn goddess Eos (Roman equivalent: Aurora) and brother of Eosphorus (Eosphoros "dawn-bearer"; also Phosphorus, Lucifer "light-bearer"), the Morning Star.

Hesperus (Greek Hesperos) is the personification of the "evening star", the planet Venus in the evening. His name is sometimes conflated with the names for his brother the personification of the planet as the "morning star" Eosphorus (Greek "bearer of dawn") or Phosorus (Ancient Greek:"bearer of light", often translated as "Lucifer" in Latin), since they are all personifications of the same planet Venus.

"Heosphoros" in the Greek LXX Septuagint and "Lucifer" in Jerome's Latin Vulgate were used to translate the Hebrew "Helel" (Venus as the brilliant, bright or shining one), "son of Shahar (Dawn)" in the Hebrew version of Isaiah 14:12.

When named thus by the early Greeks, it was thought that Eosphorus (Venus in the morning) and Hesperos (Venus in the evening) were two different celestial objects. The Greeks later accepted the Babylonian view that the two were the same, and the Babylonian identification of the planets with the Great Gods, and dedicated the "wandering star" (planet) to Aphrodite (Roman Venus), as the equivalent.


To sum this up, Luciferians do NOT believe in a deity of any sort be it Lucifer or Satan. We may use the archetype of Lucifer in our lives, but there is no worship or delusion that this Being is real in any sense.

[Time]

The thing is..... you use names that are almsot stricly abrahamic. Satan, is am abrahamic word, used in the OT. LUcifer is just the literal latin translation of dawn or morning star.

And yes, the greeks had 2 different dieties for the same thing. Venus does both, moring and evening (depending of orbit). Some other civs did this, while others seen it was the same being.

I never meant to incinuate that i meant you worshiplike most monotheistic traditions. Only that the very names you use for your tradiiomns are very significant to most abrahamic traditions. I can see why you as a tradition would want to seperate yourelves, but not totaly remove yourselves from the same information ( you both use the same general texts)

[Etu Malku]

The thing is..... you use names that are almsot stricly abrahamic.True, and I do (as most Luciferians do) because it seems to be the language that most can identify with. You obviously are past that and can see the trees from the forest.

That said, the concepts in the Abrahamic faiths (Islam is one) are useful in their metaphor and archetypal structure, e.g. when One speaks of the Serpent in the Garden, it is easily metaphoric in the concept of the Luciferic archetype freeing Mankind from the chains of the Abrahamic god.

[Time]

its unfortunate many people, im assuming kids assume the opposite.

[iksvakave]

who or what is lucifer? what do I need to understand to understand who lucifer is?

Iksvakave

[seeker786]

You could compare Yin and Yang to Angel and Devil, it's the same thing with different language. Satan represents dark destructive forces which are just as necessary as light constructive forces. If you believe in God, then good and bad are relative to Him and through his Messengers He will explain what is good and bad for us, just like parents do.

Another example can be taken from Sigmund Freud when he categorized the personality into the Id, Ego and Superego. Below is explanation of the ID, which Freud calls a "negative" character:

The id is unconscious by definition:

"It is the dark, inaccessible part of our personality, what little we know of it we have learned from our study of the dream-work and of the construction of neurotic symptoms, and most of that is of a negative character and can be described only as a contrast to the ego. We approach the id with analogies: we call it a chaos, a cauldron full of seething excitations... It is filled with energy reaching it from the instincts, but it has no organisation, produces no collective will, but only a striving to bring about the satisfaction of the instinctual needs subject to the observance of the pleasure principle."[3]

You could compare the Id to Satan and the SuperEgo to Angels. This Id, Ego, SuperEgo is an attempt to explain forces at work, whatever you call them.

To say Satan doesn't exist is denying an underlying reality of what the concept attempts to portray. You could say the Id doesn't exist...ok it doesn't exist as a walking talking personality, but the idea it represents will still exist.

If you say you are Luciferian and then deny what the Abrahamic religions say about Lucifer, then you have created your own context about what Lucifer is and then the two aren't the same anymore, unless you are saying that you do indeed worship destruction, darkness, negativity, Yang and the Id.

[Time]

I honestly cant dissagree with you for the most part, only that its not fair to the original traditions, using false information against it (liek satan/lucifer). We created so many wrong and assumed stories to it, the bible and chirstianity is anything then it was intended to be. There fore anythin that uses names, places and translations based on these lies, arent really based on truth.

You can deny any association al you want. The main thing is that to call your sefl a lucifernian or satanist, is basing those traditions on lies assumed in the bible, just by association of the name.

I do fully agree that the whole god satan concept is just more then likly an evolution of "the self" paradigm. But the one that we know is anything then what the original intent was. The devil wasnt intended to be satan, and lucifer wasnt intended to be associated with the devil. Anyone who has any knowledge of the bible knows this.

Most people will tell you that satanism/lucifernians are based one either 2 things:

That they worship something or idea called satan, that rebelled against the god we know, and they believe that he gave us our free will.

or

Its based off the gnostic traditions in which the texts speak of god as the enemy, and the same sort of context that we give the devil/satan/lucifer today.

[Mathew James]

imo Satan is the leader of the churches that are following false gospels. The great babylon riding on a deadly serpent portrays these churches following false gospels cleaverly designed by Satan.


mj

[HabitAnimal]

As an avid reader of all things, I came across an interesting verse from the Bible:

For we are not fighting against flesh-and-blood enemies, but against evil rulers and authorities of the unseen world, against mighty powers in this dark world, and against evil spirits in the heavenly places.

(Ephesians 6:12)



And this from the Quran:

O Children of Adam! Let not Satan seduce you as he caused your (first) parents to go forth from the Garden and tore off from them their robe (of innocence) that be might manifest their shame to them. Lo! he seeth you, he and his tribe, from whence ye see him not. Lo! We have made the devils protecting friends for those who believe not.

(The Heights 7:27)


What is your opinion of Satan?[/QUOTE]


The Hebrew origin of Satan is the adversary of god. However, if Psalm 45:7 has any say in the matter the god, the source of all that exists both seen and unseen, is the creator of his antithesis.

So perhaps it's all a matter of metaphor in that god is indicative of creativity and evolution of self, spirit. And the adversary, the opposer, the deceiver, is the contrast of that which is diametrically opposed to the positive attributes of human experience.

Otherwise, if taken literally, god created his own enemy and then as an omniscient being set him onto the earth to present as a barrier between ascent unto heaven, overcoming all obstacles, or failure to and thus descent unto hell or removal from god's sight for eternity.

Which would be impossible within the domain of omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresence if it were first and foremost construed to be worthy of worship/respect as omni-benevolence.

As one Satanist said long years ago. The Devil is the best friend the church ever had. He's kept them in business all these years. (Anton LaVey)

I don't believe in a Devil. I believe the mythology attributed to such characters is a metaphor for the human consciousness and personality. We are creators of our own Heaven or Hell. We are the angels or the devils.

[HabitAnimal]

who or what is lucifer? what do I need to understand to understand who lucifer is?

Iksvakave Isaiah 14:4
Lucifer is the King of Babylon.

There is a website called, " The Real Devil - A Biblical Exploration"
Their page entitled, "5-5 Lucifer King Of Babylon" , provides insight that may assist your search. :)
As a newbie I can't link it. However, I think it would be an easy find in a search engine using those terms in quotes.

[Mathew James]

Otherwise, if taken literally, god created his own enemy and then as an omniscient being set him onto the earth to present as a barrier between ascent unto heaven, overcoming all obstacles, or failure to and thus descent unto hell or removal from god's sight for eternity.



Yes, God created Satan, but not as an enemy. Satan has a purpose/specific job to do for God and Satan does it very well. If you read the Qur'an and the Bible as one Book, it has alot of info on the subject. But the Book of Enoch is the book that really explains how God uses the spirits.


mj

[Mathew James]

The woman riding on the beast is the Church in its final days on this earth. This is the period in time right before the Great Tribulation. The Church becomes the Great Babylon that goes ******* after false gospels. She commits adultery with Satan. She has become the Great Babylon riding on the back of the Great Serpent.

In the Book of Revelations, chapter 2, verse 22 the women that is cast into the bed is the Church and the followers of that Church are the ones that commit adultery with her. ‘Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.’ This is not just anyone on the street that GOD is warning us about. It is the Church! In Revelations chapter 18, verses 2 to 5 it says Babylon the Great portrays the bride. ‘And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying , Babylon the Great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies. And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.’ This is not telling people to get out of a city that was destroyed thousands of years ago. It is warning people now to get out of the churches in this world that are drinking and selling the false gospels. The false teachings are adultery to GOD and there is an abundance of adultery in the churches today. The people in these churches are not aware of this at all. They blindly follower their blind leaders and the blind are following the blind into the pit of judgment.

There is a season in time coming when there will be a great tribulation on this world. It will be such a time in history that has never been experienced ever before nor ever will be. ‘And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.’ Mathew chapter 24, verses 22 – 25.


mj