What exactly is a civilisation? [Archive]

ljepotica

02-01-2007, 03:56 PM

When you hear about a civilisation what pops up in your head?

What would you name a civilisation?

Is civilisation one of the rich and powerful countries/nations?

Is civilisation a country/nation that isn't rich and powerful yet with a population where many of the people are spiritual?

Who decides what a civiliastion is and why?
How many present day nations do we consider as being civilised and why is that?

Must we take the example of someone who is well read, educated and knowledgeable to define what a civilisation is? And if so, why? Can we not come up with our own PERSONAL description of what constitutes a civilisation?

Sorry people I know loads of questions but I'd just like to hear your valuable opinions on this subject:smile:

Lots of love and positivity:hug:

xxx

daisy

02-02-2007, 01:22 AM

i don't think anywhere in the world is truly civilised, the rich and powerful are often blighted and or motivated by greed. in my opinion true civilsation is akin to being truly spiritual

tiltjlp

02-02-2007, 03:07 AM

Well, according to my Word Web program . . .

Civilization

1. A society in an advanced state of social development (e.g., with complex legal and political and religious organizations)
2. The social process whereby societies achieve civilization
3. A particular society at a particular time and place
4. The quality of excellence in thought and manners and taste

I would think the best definition for our purposes would be 3, A particular society at a particular time and place. I find this to be the most honest and direct, as well as the only one that isn't judgmental. The other definitions all put forth qualifiers and conditions which only serve to separate society as a whole.

John

ljepotica

02-02-2007, 10:56 PM

Daisy: I'd say I agree with you-I also think that truly civilised people are those that are spiritual and as a result open with their minds on life and how they see OTHER people-including those that are different to them!

Imo civilisation begins in the heart and not necessarily in the mind...those that are TRULY civilised know and like people for being people and not for being a certain nationality, belief, colour, faith social class, gender etc...

I'm also more likely to agree with number three John as it's the only one that is not judgemental...
There are plenty of people in advanced states of social development that have no clue as to what love or acceptance is-neither do they know that a world exists outside the country or region that they are from-this also includes some people who travel to different countries-for what's the use of travelling the world and seeing many places if after all that you still see others in a narrow-minded way and think that your country is the best in the world?

I don't have any opinion of those who view civilisation as so-called "first-world" countries, civilisation is as I said before in the heart!

You mention qualifiers and conditions John and I'd like to go on and say quantity...again I mention that word quantity but it seems that a lot of people like to place far too much emphasis on quantity as if we need to be objectified, counted and put into a certain order-and the true human mind does not need to be counted in statistics...it all boils down to mathematical presion-and since when did mathematics hold any importance in the human soul, spirit and mind?

S xxxx

Nomad

03-02-2007, 11:29 PM

My instinctual thoughts of the term civilization is a group or collective of people that have banded together for the sake of progressing together in harmony and to help each other evolve in peace and learning as a collective.
i dont know what the exact literal meaning would be, but I guess it would be more about technological advancement than spiritual advancement.

I would conisder a group to be civilized because they have found a way to live together and grow together without tearing each other apart :)

Charity

03-02-2007, 11:50 PM

I agree with Nomad, my first thought before I read anyone else's answer was

Civilization-a group of open minded and open hearted people living together in order to build a community that brought benefit to everyone regardless of race, religion, or any other qualifier.

Riches and power don't make a civilization IMHO. In fact great wealth can often lead to abuse of power. The line between great wealth and abuse of power is such a fine line that many don't even realize that it has been crossed until it's almost too late. I would opt for spirituality over wealth and power any day. I love the "power" that comes with spirituality, the power from within that wants to give wonderful gifts to others rather than always be on the receiving end.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Love,
Charity

rose

04-02-2007, 12:36 AM

Nomad

04-02-2007, 12:56 AM

he he....this reminded me of ghandi when he was asked what he thought of english civilisation. he said something along the lines of..."that would be great if such a thing existed".

LOL

i just thought that was clever. NO offense meant to anyone english here as you know how i love your country. but well....back then the english imperialistic powers had a lot to answer for.

ancestrally my irish and scottish families have all suffered because of the crown's greed. and i live in a country still healing from the invasion of England over 2 centuries ago.

i am not picking on england. ALL large countries, including USA have a lot to answer for in their quest for power, natural resources and superioty over the rest of the world. we are one planet. a civilisation isn't always civilised. sometimes the most "backwards" can be very civilised. tibet for example.

NZ sometimes isn't very civilised at all especially when i read about racism and abuse refugees and new immigrants have to deal with. like all countries this one struggles with change as our planet becomes smaller.

sorry for being controversial. i mean well :)

Countries are not to blame for past discrepancies, regimes and leading individuals are to blame.
I dont understand why people dwell on what a countries history is, what is important are the people that exist now, we cannot change history so why are we still upset about something that human beings long in the past did.
To continue to hold grudges on a race of people today because of something that happened centuries ago just does no good but breed contempt and bitterness.

I dont aim this at you rose, I guess it sounds like I do, but it just made me consider the topic rather than what you personally feel.

There are regimes today that call themselves civilized that are far from it, but I think it boils down to the fact that every human in this world are at different levels of evolution.The divides we as the human race throw up just cause to isolate each other.

Its a shame we cant all be one civilization instead of a world full of hundreds of different civilizations.

Lol.... i am beginning to sound pompous so I shall stop now :D

rose

04-02-2007, 01:15 AM

thanks nomad. i didn't take it personally at all! i'm glad it brought up more thoughts like LJ's thread has in general. it helps us all learn and grow.

i personally don't blame a whole "country" for past injustices but the rulers obviously.

i have experienced racism, i have experienced prejudice in northern ireland because of my irish and catholic name. that bewildered me as we don't understand what it's really like to have such segregation in new zealand.

i do personally believe in collective responsibility. not dwelling on the past with guilt for what our parents etc have done. but i do think it's important for a country to accept what has happened in it's name to help the country as a whole heal and move into the future.

an example. we have very divided views in NZ about what happened to the maori people and the land that was stolen off them when this land was first settled by europeans. and everyone is trying their best to heal it. that is good in my opinion. the issue comes up in every election and hopefully we can move forward. because whether or not we like it people do hurt from the past.

by accepting what has happened. acknowledging it and moving on.

i used to think like you until i went to northern ireland. it brought up a sort of ancestral pain i never knew was there until i went to the town where my family came from and faced just why they had to leave their homeland. they were made to feel like scum in their own homeland. forced off the lands they had farmed for years. made less from the people that came and took over :( you only hear about the biased BBC version of events over there. it's a scary surprise when you see how much provocation there is by the pro british loyalists. imagine experiencing racism in your own homeland!!! that's why my heart goes out to indigenous people around the world. many people like myself never feel quite settled in our countries even if we are third generation. we had no choice! just my experience :)

but i am a new zealander now and grateful for what that gives me.

something that also interests me is a country's karma. england is an example only but i know there is much resentment about immigrants coming over there and settling. some think they are being driven out for example. but that country became what is was because of the natural riches it found when colonising other countries at the expense of the natives. so when those indigenous people come over to find a better life in return....it's frowned on. just a thought.

tiltjlp

04-02-2007, 02:11 AM

Some very good points Nomad and Rose. I love history and feel that it can be useful in many ways. Especially if a culture learns from its mistakes for the betterment of its society.

John

Nomad

04-02-2007, 11:42 AM

I am sorry to hear about your families past troubles, I have not gone through any form of predjudice really.
You mentioned the immigrants in the UK, it is becoming a little troublesome and causing tension with certain people.
The only aspect in which it bothers me is when I go to local take away shops like my fish and chip shop, they simply dont understand english and it can be very frustrating, but other than that I think everybody should have a right to live anywhere providing they are not harming anybody.

The UK is getting overcrowded, the strain is on everything, overcrowded schools,hospitals and public transport, so a lot of people feel we should not be letting anyone else in.
Another area that is hugely affected is housing I am 33 and still in a shared house because propeties have now spiralled out of control and are simply unaffordable to the majority of the population.The average age of someone buying their first property in London was announced at 35 last year, people are just not getting homes for themselves any more, yet immigrants from other countries are housed quickly, and of course the tax payer pays, I can understand why there is resentment, and truthfully there are times when I am resentful for ths too.
There are legitimate reasons to stopping entry, but of course there are just plain rascist groups as well.

Its an interesting point about karma, England did have quite an empire at one point, and .....(finally I get to make this post ontopic!!).....we had probably the worlds leading civilization due to our dominance of the seas.A lot of slavery and forced take overs did happen their, and our colonies settled all over, I wonder if this is some kind of "payback" now.

I forget what post it was in, but someone mentioned Tibet, saying that they are considered a backward civilization but are doing fine, I sort of agree but disagree to an extent, because they do manage to live in peace and harmony with each other, but of course due to their total passive nature they are now occupied by China.

Civilizations on this planet need a certain level of defense to evolve or they just get "squished" its a sad fact but true, history is full of ancient peaceful civilizations that no longer exist.....

Anyway, i have rambled on so much, I believe this post may actually be a new record for me, the longest post I have ever wrote, so I will stop now....congrats if you made it this far :)

rose

04-02-2007, 12:52 PM

yay for your longest post! i think that is worth celebrating for sure!

more great thoughts recorded :) thanks for your sympathy about my family, but well...it is the past and you have no need to. but it is appreciated. thanks for listening!

i see you understand what i mean by a country's collective karma. i don't know if i'm right or wrong but i do believe country's all have their "payback" for past deeds and conquorings.

tibet...now there's an interesting debate in itself. to follow the dalai lama's ideal of the middle way?...or to fight for independence. i'm confused on this one. the human rughts atrocities that still happen in tibet makes one think, that's for sure.

i'm reading a great book called "Mantras and Misdemeanors" by Vanessa Walker at the moment. it's about a western buddhist (a new zealander actually) who gives up her life as a well paid and respected journalist in australia to follow her buddhist beliefs and move to mcleod ganj in northern india, where the tibetan government in exile resides with the dalai lama. she wants to write a book about tibetan buddhism and ends up falling in love with a tibetan ex monk and becoming pregnant.

it's an addictive book and i am enjoying it so much.

i can understand why many english people are getting ill at ease with the "reverse racism" in england where immigrants sometimes get higher priority than "native" english. but i do think it is part and parcel of england having such a vast empire to begin with. a sort of karma that isn't necessarily bad. but i thank you so much Pure for understanding what i meant.

as for tibet's culture being squished. it's sad but true. but not a one off that's for certain. did you know that it wasn't very long ago that maori people were finally encouraged to speak their own beautiful language. about 1982 i think when the first maori speaking pre-schools were started. in fact speaking maori language at school was banned in my parent's lifetime. this is in a new "western" country ruled by everything "english and civilised". people weren't allowed to speak their native language!!!!

just like northern ireland

to me personally it's always strange how english people take pride in what their country once was. and it's vast empire. if only they knew what "their country once was". quite different from the romanticised version.

like the romanticised version of what new zealand is too.

VERY different. we are not all hobbits living in the land of plenty. he have quite a big crime rate (especially against well meaning but over trusting tourists) and huge child abuse statistics.

ljepotica

05-02-2007, 05:41 PM

Hey Guys!!

Well it's not just the English who take a lot of pride in their country. I have met a number of French and Italian people and they are so proud of their countries and rather arrogant of their "civilisation" whatever that is meant to be...

I was in Dublin a few years back and we met this girl from Italy and she's been to Kosovo, Bosnia and Rwanda after the wars to help re-build the countries and so we were talking when she suddenly displayed her narrow-minded Euro-centric typical Italian mentality by saying "after having gone to these countries it makes me glad to be Italian"

All great empires have involved mass murder, stealing, rape and torture and exploitation of the lands that have been taken over-to me that is not a civilisation at all that is illegal taking over a country by force...and people who have helped to build these so called "civilisations" have mainly been those with hardly any rights...

Funny how we tend to forget how great cities were built by ordinary people and not leaders...many thousands of innocent Russian people died when St Petersburg was built and yet all the credit is given to Peter the Great...

Look at any "great civilisation" either today or in the past and you will see that many innocent people are/were murdered and slaughtered or exploited to make a "civilised" country "civilised"

In the end are first world countries as civilised as they claim to be?

The only difference between western countries and non western countries is that western countries use all the weapons that tyrannical non-western leaders have used but they use more subtlety...

Ok I have gone off there but Rose you did spark off a very interesting viewpoint when you talked about empires...

It's funny how the word "civilised" is used so out of context...

Lots of love,

S xxx

Nomad

05-02-2007, 05:48 PM

Just a quick post to clarify one thing.
I am in now way proud of my country, I think it is in a shambles and do not, nor ever have had any pride in my country.
I also frown somewhat on its history too..

Just had to say this incase my first post came across UK loving :)

I was asked a few weeks ago when discussing war, wether I would die for my country, i answered no of course, but I would die for my friends.

I wonder if most wars (particularly WW2) was fought by soldiers fighting for their family and friends or the soldiers by their side rather than their country.

rose

05-02-2007, 08:21 PM

LJ...excellent points about "great cities". you are right. nearly all the great cities and "civilisations" were built through human suffering.

i am not just picking on england. i think it's great that it's become such a multicultural land now. let's just hope people don't act of any narrow mindedness and and begin racial fighting and uprisings. it's happening in some parts and it's scary.

france has a lot to answer for, and look at ancient rome! china, usa, russia, even mongolia once.

the human greed for land and power.

nomad, as much as i think patriotism is bad when it becomes arrogant and out of control like LJ pointed out, but i think some pride in your homeland is understandable and good. i would never judge you for being proud of where you are now. proud of a imperial past though would seem just crazy and ignorant to me. i have met some english who go on about the past empire. that's all that disturbs me about english patriotism. being proud of your land though is nothing to be ashamed of IMO.

you come from a beautiful land. i met so many british people wanting to leave and go to my beautiful country. but you have so much gorgeous scenery there too. the highlands of scotland nearby, the hills of wales, the seaside villages of cornwall...

what gets me at the moment with racial patriotism is that here in new zealand there are so many people moaning about "asian" people immigrating here and changing the country. when it's actually americans buying up the land. and we are all immigrants here anyway. even the maori took the land off the morioris who were killed off. so no one here is truly indigenous. so why do we all fight with each other?

same with england. it's been invaded with different cultures since year dot.

these are just thoughts and opinions. i would never want to offend anyone. these are just offerings to think of england, NZ, usa etc in a different light. just the some truths about the countries. i believe in keeping realising balance between the reality of a country's past, and the beauty that can be found in each country also.

Nomad

05-02-2007, 08:24 PM

Hi Rose.

Of course I did not think you were picking on me :)

I pointed out that I wasnt patriotic because m other post did come across a little like that, and frankly I am quite disgruntled with our government pretty much all my life.
You are definately right, there is good and bad patriotism though, but it will probably never change.

rose

05-02-2007, 08:27 PM

i agree wholeheartedly nomad (((hug))). i've appreciated your perspective. i love coming here and expanding my way of seeing things through learning from other people's eyes and souls.

ljepotica

06-02-2007, 12:01 AM

Nomad-sorry if it seemed like I was picking on you I wasn't-I'm not best with words and sometimes I come across as aggresive...

I also agree with what you say about going to a chip shop and the people not speaking enough English and also people coming from other countries to London and getting housing-I am also from London and cannot see the possibility of getting my own place for a very long time, it's a disgrace since I cannot buy a property in my birthplace-but it's also ignorant, rich and trendy people to blame-London is a city of capitalist greed-absolute greed and money is what comes first-all those yuppies are buying up all the houses/flats whilst decent and honest people like us cannot purchase anything because of the pig like greed of capitalism...

Of course there is nothing wrong with being proud of the country you are from-that is fine but the people who I have a problem with is certain ignorant people who are proud of their great cultures and "civilisations" and then go to other countries and still carry on about how great their country is-well if your country is so great then why don't you go back to it and why come to the U.K to make money and complain like an idiot about how great your country is-if you miss your homeland so much then there is nothing stopping you from going back is there?

A number of people tell me how racist English people are-which is all a load of ****-I know because I'm not white but of South Asian origin and these same people who complain about how "racist" English people are are in fact extremely narrow-minded themselves...I've hardly had any experiences of racism in the U.K-and I've been to some small English villages-and when I have faced some kind of prejudice it's actually from people who are from other countries...

It's just narrow-minded to label the English as racist when people from your own country can be 10 times worse.

It's all very well claiming to be "civilised" but real civilisation-as well as being spiritual also comes with treating people from non-white western countries like human beings and not some piece of exotica-and by that I don't mean having a fascination with Japan-anyone can have a fascination with Japan-maybe because it's another rich western country???

You cannot claim to be "civilised" if you do not see people from all countries as human beings first and not classing them as belonging to a certain label that you have put on them..

There are certain definitions of civilisation as John has pointed out-which is fair enough but civilisation is yet another label to place on a certain group of people and what if someone doesn't agree with the definition of civilisation? What then? Do they have a problem because they don't agree with the collective norm?
Are they outsiders? Are they freaks? Is there truth in what they believe?

Please note: I have not gone out to attack anyone on this forum I'm just saying what I have experienced in London and do not speak of any place else!!

rose

06-02-2007, 02:04 AM

no one here was saying english people are all racist :) i hope you're just speaking in general terms. it's ok...

Nomad

06-02-2007, 07:42 PM

[quote=ljepotica]Nomad-sorry if it seemed like I was picking on you I wasn't-I'm not best with words and sometimes I come across as aggresive...

quote]

I am not even sure why you would even think it looked that way, I never noticed, so dont worry :smile:

It is true that there are rascists in England, but I think it is on a decline, I come across less and less with those kind of views, so I agree that England on the whole arent rascist, maybe feeling the pinch of an over crowded country, but not racsist.

Thats the trouble with civilization, we outgrow our surroundings because we learn to live longer, travel further etc.

cweiters

06-02-2007, 08:23 PM

Thank you Ijepotica for this wonderful post, please allow me to twist this just a little.

Civilization - the quality of excellence in thought and manners and taste.

Must civilization be restricted to humans?
Are we the only beings with social behaviors?
[FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000]My favorite is trees, one of earth

Nomad

06-02-2007, 08:32 PM

Trees do not have the ability to destroy each other or to evolve, I would class something that cannot evolve in an intelligent sense, as not being a civilization.
Obviously trees adapt to climate change, and find ingenius places to try and grow, but I dont think they can grow in the sense a civilization can.Nor can I really stretch to saying that they are social.
I definately think civilizations can include the animal kingdom that is sentient, and even some that are not sentient later evolve to become so.
This is just my view, there may well be some hidden secret inside a tree, who knows :)

ljepotica

07-02-2007, 01:14 AM

Hello Cweiters:hug:

Rather an excellent twist on civilisations-got me thinking:smile:

What about other entities? Would they be considered as having a civilisation? If not then is civilisation something that just bugs human beings?

Who exactly set out to determine what a civilisation is and what were their actual reasons behind it?
Do we follow what a civilisation is meant to be purely because a few learned men in history coined this word?
Should we rely on these few learned men from history in order to determine what a civilisation is or can we use our own minds and our own interpretations to come up with the answers?

I would also include the animal kingdom...but the human aspect concerning animals is something I love to laugh at...when a person does something wrong they are sometimes labelled as being an animal...animals don't go round messing the planet up and animals do not have greed and a need to prove themselves as humans do and animals don't go around destroying the world...

It does turn out that the most desructive animal is man-there is no doubting that...

I think that the word civilisation is used as another diversion-this let's divide and conquer them because we're better than them type mentality...no doubt there are countries that have a lot of history and culture but it doesn't mean that you are better than someone else!

Civilisation is another usage of the cold and logical side of the brain, it's using "statistics" and in the end it all boils down to "we're a civilisation because we've X amount of X" and that makes no sense to me-it's just like those ignorant people who claim that their family is pure because their parents, grand-parents, ancestors etc have married within a close-knit community...

As I think I said before civilisation begins in the heart and not with external circumstances as some people think-but that's just my opinion and this is an open-discussion:smile:

Ok perhaps I ought to go and drink some orange juice or something:tongue:

Lots of love,

S xxxx

rose

07-02-2007, 04:13 AM

i don't think people should take offense when people are compared to animals. because we are. there's nothing bad in it. we're all part of the animal kingdom.

dreamer

07-02-2007, 04:34 AM

How dare you Rose, thats so offensive. i am a vegetable not an animal lol.

As for a civilisation - a civilisation is where some powerful people enslave some weaker people to provide them with all the comforts that the world at that present moment has to offer. It is the structure through which this process works. LOL.

rose

07-02-2007, 09:59 AM

too true dreamer.

but you? a vergetable? you wish! :D

cweiters

07-02-2007, 11:49 AM

Thank you Nomad for the correction and prospective, what I mean is trees are just as much apart of civilization as people are.
How can we have one without the other?
How can we consider one and not the other?
Imho this is what spirituality is all about. The way we perceive life is the journey, truly there are many secrets inside of us, some may never manifest in this form.

At one time trees stood just as tall as dinosaurs, and were worshiped for the many secrets of healing they possess. I feel as some American Indians believe specific trees should not be disturbed in time, I was told by an elder; trees demonstrate how we should grow. Each layer marks a new century, each century marks development not just for the tree alone.
Through out history most trees have a story relative to human life attached to it. I believe each tree has an angel or guardian connected to it, just as each of us have a soul.

Yes, imho trees hold secrets within the many layers, just as people do.

Love to all
cw

ljepotica

07-02-2007, 12:45 PM

Hey Cweiters,

I'd also like to take that a step further and say I'd apply mountains to your description. I beileve that there are many amazing civilisations that live in mountains-the mountains to me seem like another world which is on this planet but very different from it and there are even Kingdoms that live in mountains...and I believe that mountains, like trees also hold secrets.

Rose: you're right that people should not take offense at being compared to animals but some people who have no understanding of animals do. After all labelling someone as an animal in a number of cases displays ignorance on the behalf of the namer!

As for vegetables dreamer: well I've gotta say that there is nothing more ignorant than those turnips or radishes that go out there and are convinced that they're far more superior to carrots or broccoli!?!?
I guess you belong to the carrot family dear dreamer...am I right?