Seeing salvation from God's perspective

[theophilus]

When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God's viewpoint this is only one of several steps in the work of salvation. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30: "Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God's omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

He decided that those who believed the gospel were to be conformed to the image of Christ and so become part of God's family. This decision is called predestination. He predestined those who believe to become like Christ but he didn't predestine those who reject the gospel to any particular fate. The final destiny of the lost is simply the natural result of their own unbelief and not anything to which God has predestined them.

The next step is calling those whom he has predestined. He does this thru the preaching of the gospel. He causes someone to tell them the gospel so they can believe it and be saved. From our point of view this seems to be the beginning of the salvation experience because it is the first one we are aware of. When we believe the gospel we are justified in God's sight because all of our sins are forgiven. This includes all those we will commit in the future as well as those in the past because God already knows what those sins will be.

The final step in salvation is glorification, when the process of making us like Christ is completed. This will occur when Christ returns and takes the believers out in the rapture. Our bodies will be transformed to be like Christ's body and the bodies of all believers who have died will be resurrected. Even though this is still in the future it is so certain that God speaks of it in the past tense as though it had already taken place.

Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person's acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith it would seem that we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

About fifty years ago a detective story writer named Mickey Spillane was very popular. I recall reading an interview in which he described how he wrote his stories. He said that when he began a book he would write the last chapter first and then write the rest of the book to bring about the conclusion he had already written. This is the same way God works when he saves us. He decides that our final destiny will be to be glorified so that we will be like Christ and the rest of the process consists of bringing about this result. We can have complete confidence in our salvation because our last chapter has already been written by God.

I am aware of one objection that might be raised at this point. All of us know about people who have made a profession of faith in Christ and then turned away from following him. Some of you who are reading this might be among them. Doesn't this show that a person can become a Christian and then lose his salvation?

This problem has come about because there are teachers and churches who teach a false way of salvation. This false teaching can take many forms. Some teach that something else, such as baptism or good works, is needed in addition to faith. Some teach salvation by faith but have an unbiblical idea of what faith is. The kind of faith which brings salvation involves a recognition that we have sinned and deserve to be punished but that Christ took the punishment we deserve. Some preachers fail to emphasize the fact that we are sinners and so many are led to profess faith without really repenting of their sins. The result of this false teaching is that there are many who sincerely believe that they are Christians when they aren't. If they fall away from professing to be Christians it appears that they are losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved in the first place.

I know from personal experience that what it is like to make a false profession of being a Christian. I have gone to church all my life but when I was young the church I attended wasn't very Biblical in it teachings. I never was taught that salvation is by faith alone but thought that is was necessary to be baptized and them work to earn salvation. When I was 14 years old I was baptized and thought that I was now a Christian. About two years later I had a Sunday school teacher who was really a Christian. She listened to a program called Back To The Bible and because of her recommendation I began listening too. As a result of the teaching I heard on the radio I finally came to understand that salvation is a free gift of God and I put my faith in Christ and for the first time really became a Christian. If I had not done this and at some future time had come to reject the truths I had learned about the Bible it would have seemed to others that I had been saved and had lost my salvation when in fact I would never have been saved in the first place. I am thankful that God didn't allow this to happen but sent someone into my life who would guide me into the truth.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11326

[LisaLisa]

What an excellent post, really awesome truth!

:hug3:

[Natalia]

Thank you for sharing :smile:

Also...LisaLisa, good to see you still around :wink:

[sprinter]

Good post theo, I think it is a natural stumbling block a lot of new Christians face, the feeling that they should suddenly be doing all these 'things' so that they might actually feel 'good enough' to be in the club.
Of course, never being good enough is the whole point of salvation, only God can save us but Gods hands are tied until we stop trying to do it for ourselves.
This aspect of Christianity does not seem draw the focus of teachers these days.

[Internal Queries]

When we think or talk about salvation we usually mean the process of having our sins forgiven by repenting of them and putting our faith in Jesus Christ. From the human point of view this is what salvation is but from God's viewpoint this is only one of several steps in the work of salvation. The complete process is described in Romans 8:29,30: "Those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified." We see that salvation consists of five steps: foreknowledge, predestination, calling, justification, and glorification.

The first step, foreknowledge, is the logical result of God's omniscience. He knew even before he created us who would believe the gospel and who would reject it.

He decided that those who believed the gospel were to be conformed to the image of Christ and so become part of God's family. This decision is called predestination. He predestined those who believe to become like Christ but he didn't predestine those who reject the gospel to any particular fate. The final destiny of the lost is simply the natural result of their own unbelief and not anything to which God has predestined them.

The next step is calling those whom he has predestined. He does this thru the preaching of the gospel. He causes someone to tell them the gospel so they can believe it and be saved. From our point of view this seems to be the beginning of the salvation experience because it is the first one we are aware of. When we believe the gospel we are justified in God's sight because all of our sins are forgiven. This includes all those we will commit in the future as well as those in the past because God already knows what those sins will be.

The final step in salvation is glorification, when the process of making us like Christ is completed. This will occur when Christ returns and takes the believers out in the rapture. Our bodies will be transformed to be like Christ's body and the bodies of all believers who have died will be resurrected. Even though this is still in the future it is so certain that God speaks of it in the past tense as though it had already taken place.

Some people believe that it is possible for a person to become a Christian and then lose his salvation and revert to an unsaved state. If you look as salvation as only being the person's acceptance of Jesus as savior this could seem like a plausible belief. It is possible for someone to embrace a belief and later reject it so if our salvation was dependent only on our faith it would seem that we could lose it. But if you look at the entire process you will see losing salvation is impossible. When we put our faith in Christ God already knows all that is ahead in our lives. He would never save us in the first place if he knew that we would turn away from him and be lost.

About fifty years ago a detective story writer named Mickey Spillane was very popular. I recall reading an interview in which he described how he wrote his stories. He said that when he began a book he would write the last chapter first and then write the rest of the book to bring about the conclusion he had already written. This is the same way God works when he saves us. He decides that our final destiny will be to be glorified so that we will be like Christ and the rest of the process consists of bringing about this result. We can have complete confidence in our salvation because our last chapter has already been written by God.

I am aware of one objection that might be raised at this point. All of us know about people who have made a profession of faith in Christ and then turned away from following him. Some of you who are reading this might be among them. Doesn't this show that a person can become a Christian and then lose his salvation?

This problem has come about because there are teachers and churches who teach a false way of salvation. This false teaching can take many forms. Some teach that something else, such as baptism or good works, is needed in addition to faith. Some teach salvation by faith but have an unbiblical idea of what faith is. The kind of faith which brings salvation involves a recognition that we have sinned and deserve to be punished but that Christ took the punishment we deserve. Some preachers fail to emphasize the fact that we are sinners and so many are led to profess faith without really repenting of their sins. The result of this false teaching is that there are many who sincerely believe that they are Christians when they aren't. If they fall away from professing to be Christians it appears that they are losing their salvation when in fact they were never saved in the first place.

I know from personal experience that what it is like to make a false profession of being a Christian. I have gone to church all my life but when I was young the church I attended wasn't very Biblical in it teachings. I never was taught that salvation is by faith alone but thought that is was necessary to be baptized and them work to earn salvation. When I was 14 years old I was baptized and thought that I was now a Christian. About two years later I had a Sunday school teacher who was really a Christian. She listened to a program called Back To The Bible and because of her recommendation I began listening too. As a result of the teaching I heard on the radio I finally came to understand that salvation is a free gift of God and I put my faith in Christ and for the first time really became a Christian. If I had not done this and at some future time had come to reject the truths I had learned about the Bible it would have seemed to others that I had been saved and had lost my salvation when in fact I would never have been saved in the first place. I am thankful that God didn't allow this to happen but sent someone into my life who would guide me into the truth.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=11326


see? this line of reasoning is one of the factors that caused me to leave Christianity.

where does "free will" come into play when it's all predestined via the Bible god's foreknowledge? if he creates souls that are predestined for grace and heaven does he not then create souls predestined for damnation and hell?

(at this point i'm merely curious. my hostility towards my past Fundy self has finally faded.)

[deb]

see? this line of reasoning is one of the factors that caused me to leave Christianity.

where does "free will" come into play when it's all predestined via the Bible god's foreknowledge? if he creates souls that are predestined for grace and heaven does he not then create souls predestined for damnation and hell?

(at this point i'm merely curious. my hostility towards my past Fundy self has finally faded.)

Maybe the difference here is that damnation is for the soulless...There seem to be many among us that don't even understand the concept of free will... just a thought.:smile:

[Internal Queries]

Maybe the difference here is that damnation is for the soulless...There seem to be many among us that don't even understand the concept of free will... just a thought.:smile:


damnation is for the soulless? then what's there to damn there being no soul?

i'm just curious as to how the Christians here reconcile the concept of "free will" with that of "predestination" since the concepts are mutually exclusive.

[moke64916]

I am not Christian, but the way you speak Christianity is closer to truth than I have heard out of many Christians throughout this forum, churches, and others. I was baptized Christian. Apiscopalian Christian. I do not say I am Christian now, I am spiritual. The gospels and the bible in general left many rooms open for interpretation. I do not like to use the word salvation. Because I do not hand my problems to God and have him fix it for me. I pray to help me find it within myself. It is said that a seed of faith can move mountains. I respect your beliefs. Whatever leads you to your own personal truth. But so far this thread has spread in my opinion more truthful about Christianity than any other thread. I personally make my own interpretations about what is said in the bible. I do not believe in evil. Because to say there is a devil, then the word God loses its meaning. It even says in the Bible that God is the ALPHA AND OMEGA. He is Everything That Was, Everything That Is, and Everything That Ever Will Be. So how can one believe in the devil and believe in God at the same time? A fallen angel would show disunity and separation between God and the Devil. I just do not believe in evil period. I think there is positive and negative energy, but no 'force' behind it.

[northstar]

i just woke up... so my mind is still kinda fuzzy... but the concept that you 'dont' have to 'earn' your way into heaven is actually accurate... simply the phrase 'none will be forgotten nor forsaken', should be enough to explain the thoughts of the saints/saviors and gods...

i have been shown the many heavens in the heavens, and 'none is above any other'... these two simple phrases pretty much sum it up...

now, i was also given a heaven 'by my word' that the gods created for me, and it covers all those that fall between the cracks and the atheists too... 'for those that have none to speak for them in the heavens and on earth'... so anyway... its all taken care of all around the board so that 'none' shall be forgotten nor forsaken...

its not to say that those that fall between the cracks were not taken care of before... but its just kinda formalized now i guess...

[northstar]

damnation is for the soulless? then what's there to damn there being no soul?

i'm just curious as to how the Christians here reconcile the concept of "free will" with that of "predestination" since the concepts are mutually exclusive.

from what i understand, we learn a limited view of mankind and life before we are born, then we tell our guardian (whtevr) what we want to do in life... but once we get here, we get a larger view, and we can decide to change our minds via free will... and its all good (so to speak)...

so some can actually be completing their first wishes, which would be why destiny would fit like a glove to them... and others change their minds...

[Internal Queries]

from what i understand, we learn a limited view of mankind and life before we are born, then we tell our guardian (whtevr) what we want to do in life... but once we get here, we get a larger view, and we can decide to change our minds via free will... and its all good (so to speak)...

so some can actually be completing their first wishes, which would be why destiny would fit like a glove to them... and others change their minds...


yeah well, i spent 3 days in a state of constant deja vu. at first it was kinda cool. then after awhile it got annoying. then by the 3rd day it was getting tedious in a scary way. see? i tried to change what i knew was going to happen but the changes i made in an effort to break off the foreknowing were predestined too. AAAAARGGH! LOL!

what a relief it was when i woke up on the morning of the 4th day and didn't know precisely what my feet would feel when they made contact with the floor.

[theophilus]

see? this line of reasoning is one of the factors that caused me to leave Christianity.

where does "free will" come into play when it's all predestined via the Bible god's foreknowledge? if he creates souls that are predestined for grace and heaven does he not then create souls predestined for damnation and hell?

(at this point i'm merely curious. my hostility towards my past Fundy self has finally faded.)The first step is foreknowledge. God knows how we will exercise our free will. As far as I know the Bible never says God predestines anyone for hell. When someone first chooses to do what he knows is wrong he then condemns himself to the punishment he deserves. All of us deserve hell but God has made a way for us to escape it.

We need to always keep in mind that there are many things about God that we can't understand. One thing is the relationship between his sovereignty and our free will. I have written about this in my blog and I have just posted that entry in this forum because it might help answer the question you asked.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=264331#post264331 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D264331%23post264331)

[northstar]

yeah well, i spent 3 days in a state of constant deja vu. at first it was kinda cool. then after awhile it got annoying. then by the 3rd day it was getting tedious in a scary way. see? i tried to change what i knew was going to happen but the changes i made in an effort to break off the foreknowing were predestined too. AAAAARGGH! LOL!

what a relief it was when i woke up on the morning of the 4th day and didn't know precisely what my feet would feel when they made contact with the floor.

i guess they just wanted to know if you were sure... are you sure you're sure... are you sure that you're sure you're sure... lol... so i guess they got the point...

i was in the 'parting the red seas' from time to time before too... it was kinda neat... but as you... i just said 'ok thanks, i'll take it from here, thx'... we work as a team...

[Internal Queries]

The first step is foreknowledge. God knows how we will exercise our free will. As far as I know the Bible never says God predestines anyone for hell. When someone first chooses to do what he knows is wrong he then condemns himself to the punishment he deserves. All of us deserve hell but God has made a way for us to escape it.

We need to always keep in mind that there are many things about God that we can't understand. One thing is the relationship between his sovereignty and our free will. I have written about this in my blog and I have just posted that entry in this forum because it might help answer the question you asked.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=264331#post264331 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Fp%3D264331%23post264331)


predestinations precludes free will. one can not do anything other than what is predestined for one to do, any goodness or sin one will perform is already a done deal before one is born. so well, it doesn't matter. see? i'm one of those souls the Bible god predestined for his eternal torture chamber. i was a very devoted Christian ... and then i started asking questions (the devil whispered in my ear) and none of the "the Lord works in mysterious ways" answers provided satisfied me. i tried hard to hold onto my faith but apparently the Bible god gave me the soul saving "gift of faith" and then took it back or he had only pretended to give me the all important "gift of faith" and i never had it in the first place. one can not manufacture faith by force of will. you either have it or you don't. i guess ya just gotta be one of the lucky chosen ones.

it's okay. fortunately for me disbelieving in hell causes the threat to disappear and there are other heavens.

[deb]

damnation is for the soulless? then what's there to damn there being no soul?

i'm just curious as to how the Christians here reconcile the concept of "free will" with that of "predestination" since the concepts are mutually exclusive.

What if it is simply the threat of damnation that causes the predestined soul to use free will to move forward in an intended direction? Could it be that soul uses the soulless as a means to learn from. One sees what God is not and uses free will to move in the opposite direction. Some souls make the best use of their time in this given human experience where others may not; and when the time comes for this experience to end some may feel damned because they have to start it all over again or experience some other form of suffering as a result.
The old testament gives references to the belief in reincarnation where as new testament claims to have given "the way" to get off of that ride. I believe the true Christian knows that there is a better world and chooses(at his own pace) to move in this direction. As with any path, there are opportunities to venture off in a different direction. leaving them in a space where one may be damned. Now if in a damned state, one is able to remember that they the hold the map to their true destination then the damnation/ suffering is a just a temporary state but is also a needed experience for the understanding of its true nature .

[deb]

damnation is for the soulless? then what's there to damn there being no soul?

i'm just curious as to how the Christians here reconcile the concept of "free will" with that of "predestination" since the concepts are mutually exclusive.

What if it is simply the threat of damnation that causes the predestined soul to use free will to move forward in an intended direction? Could it be that soul uses the soulless as a means to learn from. One sees what God is not and uses free will to move in the opposite direction. Some souls make the best use of their time in this given human experience where others may not; and when the time comes for this experience to end some may feel damned because they have to start it all over again or experience some other form of suffering as a result.
The old testament gives references to the belief in reincarnation where as new testament claims to have given "the way" to get off of that ride. I believe the true Christian knows that there is a better world and chooses(at his own pace) to move in this direction. As with any path, there are opportunities to venture off in a different direction. leaving them in a space where one may be damned. Now if in a damned state, one is able to remember that they the hold the map to their true destination then the damnation/ suffering is a just a temporary state but is also a needed experience for the understanding of its true nature .

[mattie]

Salvation is based on the POV that we are inherently flawed sinners. Couldn’t disagree more w/ this concept of our being inherently flawed. Any religion that is based on our being inherently flawed is one that is problematic for me (& many others). Predestination is another concept I don’t hold.

If one doesn’t believe in our being inherently flawed, then salvation or whether one has lost it is also a concept that is not applicable. That is it from God’s view also varied depending on what view one has about the energies we call God.

Many view us as not flawed at all & as full respected partners w/ the Universe (what others call God).

Changing Ideas About God-
http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=249240#poststop

It is good that you found beliefs that work for you.

Everyone has their right to their own views about spirituality as long as the perspective is maintained that those who have differing views have the EXACT SAME RIGHT to their DIFFERING beliefs.

[theophilus]

The old testament gives references to the belief in reincarnation Where are these references? I have read the Bible several times and I don't recall ever reading anything about reincarnation.

[davec]

Somehow someone got off on the wrong track here. Regardless of how you read Romans, the canonical Gospels are easily read for the proposition that there is no final result until you are judged after death. At that time you will be judged on all deeds for which you have failed to repent and repentance requires more than apology--if you could have made restitution, then you should have. If you have real faith, of course, then you have the promise that you won't make those mistakes. The truth will set you free.

The existence of the devil is not difficult to account for. God gave his angels free will. Lucifer chose a path that put him very much at odds with Christ's plan for humans on earth--a plan that promoted free will. Lucifer still exists and tries to impose his misery on us--we are tested by this and how well we handle the test determines our fate. Fortunately, we have been provided with many tools to handle this challenge.

God's foreknowledge, if there is such a thing as it would be formulated in an eternal framework (couldn't God simply refuse to exercise it?), is not inconsistent with free will because, for one thing this is a comparison of a mortal condition with an imponderable. What always matters is behavior, such as how well we treat each other. We are free to behave any way we wish, but there will be consequences,if not here, then hereafter.

Peace.

[deb]

Where are these references? I have read the Bible several times and I don't recall ever reading anything about reincarnation.
sorry for this late reply... I'd based that statement on a priest, , book, and 20+ years of gathering info that hasn't told me otherwise. I googled before posting and was a bit overwhelmed. I know there was quite a bit info on the idea of Elijah/Elias being born again as St John the Baptist; Christ even makes note to this in the NT. When I have the time , and can find a good source I will post again. Thanks

[theophilus]

I know there was quite a bit info on the idea of Elijah/Elias being born again as St John the Baptist; Christ even makes note to this in the NT.There was a connection between Elijah and John the Baptist but it wasn't reincarnation. To begin with, Elijah couldn't have been reincarnated because he never died.
And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.2 Kings 2:11 ESV


Look at what Gabriel told Zachariah when he foretold the birth of John.
And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.Luke 1:16,17


He didn't say John would be Elijah but that he would manifest the same spirit and power. John himself later denied that he was Elijah.And this is the testimony of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, “Who are you?”He confessed, and did not deny, but confessed, “I am not the Christ.” And they asked him, “What then? Are you Elijah?” He said, “I am not.” “Are you the Prophet?” And he answered, “No.”
John 1:19-21


Another reason reincarnation is incompatable with the Bible is that the Bible teaches that our bodies will be raised from the dead.
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.Daniel 12:2


If reincarnation were true each of us would have lived in more than one body and and at the resurrection there would be more bodies than there were people to inhabit them.

[deb]

[QUOTE=theophilus]There was a connection between Elijah and John the Baptist but it wasn't reincarnation. To begin with, Elijah couldn't have been reincarnated because he never died.
And as they still went on and talked, behold, chariots of fire and horses of fire separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.2 Kings 2:11 ESV


Look at what Gabriel told Zachariah when he foretold the birth of John.[INDENT]
And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God,and he will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just, to make ready for the Lord a people prepared.Luke 1:16,17


Thanks for the response. I still haven't been able to pull together what I'd need to better share my pov...was away for the weekend and came home to more work:smile:. I'm sure that my response to the above would take much more than I have to give right now. I know now that I have to be a bit more careful with responding to posts...thank you:smile: