Okay from a neo-pagans p.o.v. what do you think....

[Skins_Princess]

Are some of the cons (downsides) to modern day paganism? As far as the whole community goes, belief systems, etc?

[avenger]

Too much eclecticism. Needs a little more uniformity or coherence in beliefs.

[Sungirl]

In fighting between groups and a lack of acceptance that people are ok to follow their own paths.

Other than that, I don't think there are any down-sides.

[Animus27]

Are some of the cons (downsides) to modern day paganism? As far as the whole community goes, belief systems, etc?
What *kind* of neo-paganism?

You got your Heathens, Hellenics, Wiccans, Feri, Druid, etc. ad nauseum, lol.

It's difficult (or impossible some might say :wink: )to define any pros or cons about modern neo-pagan movements, because it's really a group of distinct and sometimes very different, religions.

It seems in my mind that in popular culture paganism is basically eclectic neo-Wicca - which isn't true. Wicca is the more... Er. Popular tradition within neo-paganism, mostly because it's the most well=known.

Blah I think I might being cryptic. Point I am trying to, well point at, is that there's so much diversity that there is really no Neo-Pagan (tm) one can look up and get the low-down on.

[norseman]

I am not going to point the finger at anyone.
For a pagan p o v, you need to look at countries which have a pagan heritage, and the countries which do NOT.
That's all I intend to say :smile:

[Kai]

Honestly, I don't think there are many cons in general. It depends on which specific religion one is in, or if they're eclectic or whatever. Personally it annoys me when people think witchcraft involves superpowers. xD

[Skins_Princess]

What *kind* of neo-paganism?

You got your Heathens, Hellenics, Wiccans, Feri, Druid, etc. ad nauseum, lol.

It's difficult (or impossible some might say :wink: )to define any pros or cons about modern neo-pagan movements, because it's really a group of distinct and sometimes very different, religions.

It seems in my mind that in popular culture paganism is basically eclectic neo-Wicca - which isn't true. Wicca is the more... Er. Popular tradition within neo-paganism, mostly because it's the most well=known.

Blah I think I might being cryptic. Point I am trying to, well point at, is that there's so much diversity that there is really no Neo-Pagan (tm) one can look up and get the low-down on.


Why do you think eclectic neo-Wicca is so popular?

[Animus27]

Why do you think eclectic neo-Wicca is so popular?
I think Wicca in general is popular because it was the first "pagan" religion to really reach a wide audience, especially in the USA. So Wicca really launched the Neo-pagan movement in a lot of places. And once you get into the late 70's and 80's the market was flooded with witchcraft and Wicca books, that usually emphasized a personal, usually solitary approach. Through such publications the neo-Wicca version of Wicca (which is unlike the British Traditional Wicca because it's not a mystery fertility cult and has been stripped of it's more, unseemly aspects, such as sexual rites (I'm using cult in the anthropological sense) N-W is not a bad thing and a lot of people have find spiritual fulfillment in it. But due to it's popularity, and at being at the front line of "pagan" religions it's associated in many minds with other pagan religious movements.

Such popular notions of Wicca = all pagan religions, or paganism = Wicca is exasperating for some other pagans because as mostly minority religions that are gravely misunderstood by the wider populace, and I for one, think it's good to realize that paganism can't be defined by what it is, but by what it isn't (which technically would be that it's not an Abrahamic religion).

/rant :wink:

[LadyMoondancer]

Why do you think eclectic neo-Wicca is so popular?

Many women embraced it because they got tired of being ignored by the very religion they were raised in.
That's what started me on my path. I was 14, and could see nothing but hypocrisy towards women in the Catholic Church. So I started on my spiritual quest.

A lot of people get interested in Wicca and/or witchcraft because of Harry Potter, Charmed, Bewitched, Practical Magic and Hocus Pocus. It's so "cool."
As they delve further into it, they see either it's not for them, or they feel as though they were "coming home" to their true path.

[Sungirl]

Through such publications the neo-Wicca version of Wicca (which is unlike the British Traditional Wicca because it's not a mystery fertility cult and has been stripped of it's more, unseemly aspects, such as sexual rites (I'm using cult in the anthropological sense)
*splutter cough* I beg your pardon! Run that by me again? What is British Traditional Wicca??

[Sungirl]

Many women embraced it because they got tired of being ignored by the very religion they were raised in.

Have to say this is not my experience, most pagans I know have followed a path that they found on their own only to find that it has a name...... paganism (or one of it's sub-classes)

A lot of people get interested in Wicca and/or witchcraft because of Harry Potter, Charmed, Bewitched, Practical Magic and Hocus Pocus. It's so "cool."
As they delve further into it, they see either it's not for them, or they feel as though they were "coming home" to their true path.

Yes some youngsters come to it through the hollywood version but you tend to find they soon loose interest when they find that they can't be one of the hollywood type of witches with sparks coming out of their plastic wand.

[Animus27]

*splutter cough* I beg your pardon! Run that by me again? What is British Traditional Wicca??
http://www.wicca.cc/page5.htm

[norseman]

*splutter cough* I beg your pardon! Run that by me again? What is British Traditional Wicca??
:D Beat me to it there, Tilia. Makes me laugh for two reasons. Firstly, no such thing in Britain - BTW is British Traditional Witchcraft. Tradition ? - I have socks older than wicca !

"A: British Traditional Wicca (BTW) is the name we give to a number of denominations of Wiccans who have received (via initiatory lineage) and maintain an established body of lore and practice passed down from generation to generation. The best known of these are the Gardnerians, of which there are distinct British and American branches. Alexandrians, Mohsians and (California) Central Valley Wicca are also British Traditionals. " from wicca.cc
Now this is THE thing that really winds me up ! Witchcraft, and it's off-shoot wicca, is embedded in British heritage and culture

"(California) Central Valley Wicca are also British Traditionals" - how can a version of wicca created in California be Brit. Trad. Call it American Traditional if you like but not British because it isn't !

"established body of lore and practice passed down from generation to generation. " Gardnerian wicca is about 50 years old. Generations ?

[Sungirl]

http://www.wicca.cc/page5.htm (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .wicca.cc%252Fpage5.htm)
I read the first few lines and turned off... this is one person's opinion. Remember, when you are dealing with paganism you will get a LOT of people who say thier truth is the only truth, and they will say it loudly and vehemently. It is STILL only their opinion as there is no "one truth" when it comes to paganism.

You might well find there is a group that call themselves BTW, but I'm guessing that title will be self appointed. I have never heard of them.

I would be interested to learn who wrote this and whether they have ever been to the UK let alone talked to British pagans.

I have to say I'm quite uncomfortable with these comments and the implications to what people think of wiccans in the UK.

[norseman]

"I have to say I'm quite uncomfortable with these comments and the implications to what people think of wiccans in the UK."

I agree with you, Tilia. The thread is getting dangerously close to Witch Wars territory.

[Time]

I think your missing the big point of that link.

It strickly states that wicca was a british belief before hitting mainstream, and "proper" practitioners ( im assuming the ones with the lineage), dissagree that anyone else practicing it, should use the term "wiccan".

I can understand this, can you imagine someone totaly going against the bible, yet still calling themselves a devout christian? Think of jow the jewish felt when rome took their religion as their own?

[mattie]

One should choose whatever beliefs that work for them. Others can’t really made these decisions for them.

[norseman]

Time, truth is that there is a yawning gulf between UK and US on the subject of wicca, and the cause is a matter of heritage and culture.
UK pagan since the Neolithic and it is dubious whether it has ever been christian under a thin skin.
Whereas, US founded as a christian country with no pagan background [ putting aside the Native American heritage]
Just a short distance away, I can be at a pagan holy site, prechristian, and overlaid by a thousand year-old christian cathedral. A little bit further and I can be at a 3000 year-old henge which is still used at pagan festivals.
The link given is American and is in error about Brit. Trad Wicca - it does not exist in UK !
As I suggested to you elsewhere, check out wicca and witchcraft in books from British Universities.

[Sungirl]

I think your missing the big point of that link.

Time, I have no specific issue with the link because I didn't read past the first few lines, the tone said enough to me, the issue I have comes from when Animus said... and I quote again
Through such publications the neo-Wicca version of Wicca (which is unlike the British Traditional Wicca because it's not a mystery fertility cult and has been stripped of it's more, unseemly aspects, such as sexual rites (I'm using cult in the anthropological sense)
Whether this is Animus's words or not it is misinformation and implies that "wiccans" are in it for the sex. As most US readers will think all UK pagans are wiccan that could lead them to a distorted view on what UK pagans are about...

The other issue I have is there is a forum for Wiccans (i.e. US pagans), this is for Paganism... and there very clearly is a difference in this context.... imho

[Animus27]

As the general reply to such offense at my use of BTW:

BTW is a useful term to use for lineage based covens of Wicca that are directly connected to the originals founded by ole Gerald Gardner and his protégé. It's not meant to say all Wiccans, nor witches in the UK are BTW *gasp*. There has to be a distinction between self-styled Wiccans/new founded "covens" and initiated ones that usually trace themselves as being connected with Gardner in someway.

Now this is THE thing that really winds me up ! Witchcraft, and it's off-shoot wicca, is embedded in British heritage and culture
How can it be embedded in British culture when you have socks older than it? :D

Wicca is a religion that uses witchcraft. Witchcraft is a term for some practices of magic. Witchcraft and paganism (which are different, despite some people's notions about them being identical with one another), are not separate. One can be a pagan and practice no witchcraft, in some Hellenic pagans in particular, view it as hubris and therefore impious.

Tilla, I was not insinuating that Wiccans (of the more traditional flavor) just care about sex. But Wicca is a very polarity & fertility based religion, the Horned God & Great Goddess and all that. And because of that the original covens and religious practices created by Gardner involved heavy sexual symbolism, and for some off-shoots of it at least, actual sex between the High Priestess & Priest.

[Sungirl]

Animus... can I ask what country you are in. Are you British or from somewhere else?

You seem to write with authority of British Paganism but it is not in line with my own experience (and I run a forum for british pagans)

I do agree with you tho that the terms Pagan, Wiccan and Witch all refer to different types of people, one can be all of them or just one. Statements made to cover them all should be made very carefully as it is very difficult to generalise beyond most of them have noses in the middle of their faces. They can be very different people following very different paths.

Not wishing to speak for Norsey I think he was saying that he has socks older than Wicca and that Paganism is embedded in British culture. Paganism is as old as the hills, literally, Wicca is only about 60 years old.

This being the case there aren't going to be any "wiccan" covens that have lineage that go back very far.. but there are other covens that have a very long lineage.

I think the issue imho is that the US consider almost all pagans Wiccan whereas we see a very big difference as there are so many other types of pagans.

Have to say Norsey, you can keep your socks up north if it's ok by you ;o)

[norseman]

Tilia, I have no control over my socks. They are free agents :D

[ I think we might all do ourselves a favour if we use Witch Craft rather than witchcraft - makes it clearer what we are talking about ]

[Sungirl]

Tilia, I have no control over my socks. They are free agents :D


:D:D

[Time]

Well heres the thing.

From my experience, all wiccans that ive talked to (especialy outside of this forum, but still many here), assume that wicca is pagan. Technicaly it is, because it is anything other then monotheism, but pagan is more of a general term for anything around before christianity, or during its rise.

It goes the same thing that, people assume pagans are only witches, and vise versa, and that many, many, many wiccans think they are witches, and that the tradition goes far back as their civilization, which we know isnt true.

I think its more of the situation of people just not understanding what they say they are, which again, im sure we can all agree happens particularly with wicca/paganism.

Yes england has pretty much always been a pagan country, but it still had different types of pagan tradtions over time: celt/druid, nothern eurpean, some norse influence, roman..... to condence most of these, and call it one belif structure (wicca), still deosnt even give these traditions justice, becasue almsot everything we know about them, is gone, except by the very few people who keep it int he family, ie "British traditional Wicca".

Im sure some english people went to the states, and other countries, with this knowledge and started to spread it around, and we end up with the american version of it.

Does it mean one is wrong or right? No, its no different from what happened with monotheism, branching of into almsot thousands of traditions, which are generaly the same

[Sungirl]

Yes england has pretty much always been a pagan country, but it still had different types of pagan tradtions over time: celt/druid, nothern eurpean, some norse influence, roman..... to condence most of these, and call it one belif structure (wicca),

Why can't we bundle it together and call it Pagan? Honestly, I am NOT wiccan, I'm really not... but I AM pagan. Would you use your umbrella term of wiccan for a Heathen? I can assure you I know of at least one that would have an issue with that. Likewise I know of a few Druids that would have the same problem.

Wicca is one of the many pagan paths. It is a valid and respected path, but it is not a name that can be applied to all pagans.

[Time]

I cant tell you what to do or not, all I can say is that wiccan and pagan are genearaly speaking of the same thing, as in wicca is pagan in the fact it isnt monotheism.

But pagan is a general term. Its like, i can call you a christian, but what kind? presbateryan? Evangelical? Protestant?

"Pagan" is a general term to descrive thousands of traditions, greek, celt, germanic ( as in bavaria/germany area, not germanic as the general term), roman, gaulic, gailic, and even east indian tranditions in all forms and eastern traditions, all north american and south american traditions.... You cant say they are all the same thing, because they arent, they are just in one group of traditions givin the general term "pagan"

The thing is we DO bundle it together and call it pagan, but it really doesnt describe much for the tradition of paganism were trying to discuss at any point. Its like " oh lets talk about cars"... " ok what kind", " oh it doesnt matter, all vehicles are the same"......

[Sungirl]

I cant tell you what to do or not, all I can say is that wiccan and pagan are genearaly speaking of the same thing, as in wicca is pagan in the fact it isnt monotheism.

But pagan is a general term. Its like, i can call you a christian, but what kind? presbateryan? Evangelical? Protestant?
But I am not a specific type of pagan. I'm not Druid, I'm not Wiccan (i.e. follow a initiatory path), I'm not Heathen.. I am a solitary eclectic pagan, I have taken on aspects of a number of spiritualities. I was given the label of pagan lightworker as that is the 2 aspects of my path, but I do not fit into any easily definable, recognised group.


"Pagan" is a general term to descrive thousands of traditions, greek, celt, germanic ( as in bavaria/germany area, not germanic as the general term), roman, gaulic, gailic, and even east indian tranditions in all forms and eastern traditions, all north american and south american traditions.... You cant say they are all the same thing, because they arent, they are just in one group of traditions givin the general term "pagan"

The thing is we DO bundle it together and call it pagan, but it really doesnt describe much for the tradition of paganism were trying to discuss at any point. Its like " oh lets talk about cars"... " ok what kind", " oh it doesnt matter, all vehicles are the same"......
Wiccan may be an umbrella term in Canada, but it isn't here in the UK (and we were talking about the UK a few posts up). If people are happy to be called wiccan in Canada that is cool :)

As for using the term pagan, as I posted in a different thread (but can't find it) what a word actually means is less important than what the majority thinks it means. As such, in the UK at least, the majority of people think the word Pagan means a nature based spirituality often based around the cycle of the year and a duality of God and Goddess (However the Heathens come under this heading too and their path is a bit different)... very very few would consider something like hinduism pagan even if technically it is because it is non-Abrahamic.

I think we will just have to agree that different countries use different names for things... but it would be good if we only made sweeping generalisations about our own countries :wink:

[norseman]

Time, it's two/three nations divided by a common language again. Pagan is a catch-all word. Wicca is a religion within that catch-all. All Gardnerian wiccans are classed as witches but not all witches are wiccan.
BTW is British Traditional Witchcraft, not BTWicca. Actually, it is British Traditional Craft as used by witches :D
Ah, it's only words that trip us up !

[Time]

Just the word pagan. LOL for some people.