View Full Version : The End of Suffering.
This follows my last thread 'The Problem of Human Suffering', which served quite well to delve into the very heart of what it is to suffer, how deep it goes and how truely gruesome (and even worse) it is.
We have to look into that, get to the very bottom of it, because the roots of it holding very fast and have done throughout all human history.
To change is to ask why don't we change? It has be asked most deeply of the self. You know that if you don't change suffering will continue just as it has before... it's that simple.
The world won't have peace until the individuals have peace... that means you and me... the peace of the world is the magnitude of your responsibility.
Imagine your young child going to war and being shot to bits, blinded, maimed... that is the price we are pay, and have always payed, and that is the future of an agitated world... and your own peace is the only solution to it.
Now the only question left is, do you care? Care enough to really change?
If this can make the feeling rize, the determination, the motivation... then be relentlessly dilligent so as to be a light unto yourself, and by being so, a light into the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQHlFI992Y&feature=related (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DALQHlFI992Y%2526a mp%253Bfeature%253Drelated)
The only end to suffering, is to understand that suffering is inevitable. ITs choosing not to consiously cause suffering, which is what we have to learn
The only end to suffering, is to understand that suffering is inevitable. ITs choosing not to consiously cause suffering, which is what we have to learn
That's funny... The problem of it was pretty popular, but humans are drawn to drama.
No one really wants to change, changing friggin hurts, so people tend to chase the fantastical and the comfortable in preference to facing the underlying issues which agitate them, and what choice do people have... the ego must be preserved...
I don't expect that pain will end, earthquakes and infernos and tidal waves etc etc etc... but it is the 'who' that suffers.
Isn't it time to take a good look and this? Isn't it the only way?
Well natural disasters are a bit different then say, humans not helping eachother out, which causes suffering.
Of course when it comes down to it, suffering is suffering, but i see a big difference compared to a tornado wiping out a whole city, and a whoel continent of people starving due to people being greedy with money..
Internal Queries
27-06-2011, 02:38 PM
ending all life ends all suffering. as long as there are nerve endings and brains with pain receptors there will be suffering.
i don't know what can be done about it except to hope for a nice big meteor.
moke64916
27-06-2011, 03:26 PM
This follows my last thread 'The Problem of Human Suffering', which served quite well to delve into the very heart of what it is to suffer, how deep it goes and how truely gruesome (and even worse) it is.
We have to look into that, get to the very bottom of it, because the roots of it holding very fast and have done throughout all human history.
To change is to ask why don't we change? It has be asked most deeply of the self. You know that if you don't change suffering will continue just as it has before... it's that simple.
The world won't have peace until the individuals have peace... that means you and me... the peace of the world is the magnitude of your responsibility.
Imagine your young child going to war and being shot to bits, blinded, maimed... that is the price we are pay, and have always payed, and that is the future of an agitated world... and your own peace is the only solution to it.
Now the only question left is, do you care? Care enough to really change?
If this can make the feeling rize, the determination, the motivation... then be relentlessly dilligent so as to be a light unto yourself, and by being so, a light into the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQHlFI992Y&feature=related (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DALQHlFI992Y%2526a mp%253Bfeature%253Drelated)
How does change happen.
How do you eat an elephant?
Answer: One bite at a time.
That's how change occurs. One bite at a time.
Gem-
I don't expect that pain will end, earthquakes and infernos and tidal waves etc etc etc... but it is the 'who' that suffers.
Isn't it time to take a good look and this? Isn't it the only way?
Yes. "who am I?" is The question.
Who suffers? Somebody suffers. If it is realized that there is nobody there- there is no suffering- as there is nobody there to suffer.
Pain is inevitable. But suffering must have somebody who is suffering.
I don't expect that pain will end, earthquakes and infernos and tidal waves etc etc etc... but it is the 'who' that suffers.
Exactly.
ending all life ends all suffering. as long as there are nerve endings and brains with pain receptors there will be suffering.
i don't know what can be done about it except to hope for a nice big meteor.
:icon_lol: IQ- you are so colorful. :color:
7luminaries
27-06-2011, 03:56 PM
ending all life ends all suffering. as long as there are nerve endings and brains with pain receptors there will be suffering.
i don't know what can be done about it except to hope for a nice big meteor.
LOL...in the meantime, perhaps we can face up to some alternatives as Gem was saying ....he's right, it's high time and after all there is no time BUT the present.
After all, the meteor may still come but more of us may "die happy" that way :wink:
7luminaries
27-06-2011, 04:26 PM
To change is to ask why don't we change? It has be asked most deeply of the self. You know that if you don't change suffering will continue just as it has before... it's that simple.
The world won't have peace until the individuals have peace... that means you and me... the peace of the world is the magnitude of your responsibility.
Imagine your young child going to war and being shot to bits, blinded, maimed... that is the price we are pay, and have always payed, and that is the future of an agitated world... and your own peace is the only solution to it.
Now the only question left is, do you care? Care enough to really change?
If this can make the feeling rize, the determination, the motivation... then be relentlessly dilligent so as to be a light unto yourself, and by being so, a light into the world.
I don't expect that pain will end, earthquakes and infernos and tidal waves etc etc etc... but it is the 'who' that suffers.
Isn't it time to take a good look and this? Isn't it the only way?
Yes. It is. We must examine ourselves. We must find the truth of who we are. How else can I know & stand for what I believe in unless I have been forged in the crucible of my own truth? There are many ways to do this...for me, I have been stripped down, deprived of ego crutches, & beaten relentlessly (at a soul level). In addition to seeking the truth on my own and in community.
So right now, I have a damn good idea who what & why I am here right now. And I couldn't have said this so clearly had I not experienced the trial-by-fire method of confronting the ego, in addition to the soul searching. This is what I learned. Flow like water and the sword doesn't cut. Always go to the Source, and always reach in and reach out. Find your center, know who you are, and then reach out in love and strength and in giving and sharing.
Anyone who tells me connection and exchange of love on all levels isn't possible, or means one is needy or weak, isn't saying something wrong for them. Just wrong for me. They're just in a different place, and for them, giving and sharing very likely would produce feelings of weakness & need.
If they haven't healed the self adequately, then they are wisely tending to that. You can only give what you have inside, and you have to be very strong and centred in yourself and in your Self before you can give and share and connect fully without losing yourself. And yet, when you are strong and centred in yourself, there is never even the slightest danger.
***
Having said all that, do I recommend my approach as the way forward for humanity to heal? No. Trial by fire is a sh*t way for most ppl to learn and no one should have to do it without having a "safe house" and some "life lines". As Gem noted, I'd prefer those I love not have to be shot, tortured, etc., either physically or emotionally. I'd prefer that all the world's children and ppl to know peace and love in our time.
I say this because for vast swathes of humanity, having suffered abuse, neglect, rape, or torture...disease or pain...war, starvation, and other deprivation...what is more pain going to "teach" them about compassion and trust? They already understand full well about independence & self-reliance...and unfortunately many darker more negative lessons as well.
If they are strong, then they have found God through their suffering...if not, they have found many hells. More pain and suffering teaches them nothing they haven't already seen and known already.
The only way to break through to higher levels for most of humanity is via connection...through love and compassion, through acceptance & forgiveness. Through one another. We must be there for ourselves and then for one another, to provide and to receive love and support. It is a two-way street, and we must rise to the occasion for ourselves & for one another. There is no other way forward into the light.
Peace & blessings,
7L
moke64916
27-06-2011, 04:30 PM
'I' believe there will be a new consciousness in the atmosphere after the eclipse of December 21 2012. All of these eclipses is slowly shifting world consciousness towards enlightenment. The Universe has these cycles that occur every so often that cause change. The Ancient Greeks, and Mayan people understood this Universal Cycle very well. Able to predict future events using this. By 2015 I see enlightened people. After enough turmoil, people will begin to see Unity. Change will occur for the better in the future. Unless it will not.
7luminaries
27-06-2011, 04:54 PM
'I' believe there will be a new consciousness in the atmosphere after the eclipse of December 21 2012. All of these eclipses is slowly shifting world consciousness towards enlightenment. The Universe has these cycles that occur every so often that cause change. The Ancient Greeks, and Mayan people understood this Universal Cycle very well. Able to predict future events using this. By 2015 I see enlightened people. After enough turmoil, people will begin to see Unity. Change will occur for the better in the future. Unless it will not.
LOL...yes, I think that's the crux of everything. Whether change is for the better or not will depend on us. And whether we change individually. As Gem noted...that means you and me. Not nameless faceless whoevers. All change is personal. Otherwise it's someone else's "change".
Change does hurt. It is painful. And yet we must come to a place of self acceptance and healing. Often, the love and acceptance required to heal own inner wounds are beyond the individual's current capacity or level. And yet they must heal in order to reach this level. How do we break past this conundrum?
Only through radical love and acceptance of ourselves and of one another, IMO.
Only through our connections and the love we give to and receive from one another. For many reasons. But also for no reason. Just because.
Peace & blessings,
7L
moke64916
27-06-2011, 05:51 PM
LOL...yes, I think that's the crux of everything. Whether change is for the better or not will depend on us. And whether we change individually. As Gem noted...that means you and me. Not nameless faceless whoevers. All change is personal. Otherwise it's someone else's "change".
Change does hurt. It is painful. And yet we must come to a place of self acceptance and healing. Often, the love and acceptance required to heal own inner wounds are beyond the individual's current capacity or level. And yet they must heal in order to reach this level. How do we break past this conundrum?
Only through radical love and acceptance of ourselves and of one another, IMO.
Only through our connections and the love we give to and receive from one another. For many reasons. But also for no reason. Just because.
Peace & blessings,
7L
I have changed Myself. I am Being. I've stopped my personal suffering. Now what do you do when that is done? Help others find it within themself? I think so. Change has to come from within, yet if someone has the gift of being able to get to the core of a person, and motivate them, then it would help others change. You have to be able to relate to a person on THEIR level. It is great to have good peoples skills to do this. I know what 'I' am going to do to help shift world consciousness. I see it as successful. You will all know who I am sometime in the future. Yes change comes on an individual level. I am gifted with being able to help others on their level. Good People skills is key to understanding people on an individual level. You have to love to help others in your heart. I've already said in the last thread that I have a plan. It will come true. You will all know me publicly in about 8 years from now.
7luminaries
27-06-2011, 06:04 PM
I have changed Myself. I am Being. I've stopped my personal suffering. Now what do you do when that is done? Help others find it within themself? I think so. Change has to come from within, yet if someone has the gift of being able to get to the core of a person, and motivate them, then it would help others change. You have to be able to relate to a person on THEIR level. It is great to have good peoples skills to do this. I know what 'I' am going to do to help shift world consciousness. I see it as successful. You will all know who I am sometime in the future. Yes change comes on an individual level. I am gifted with being able to help others on their level. Good People skills is key to understanding people on an individual level. You have to love to help others in your heart. I've already said in the last thread that I have a plan. It will come true. You will all know me publicly in about 8 years from now.
Sounds good. It's good to have a love of all and be an inspiration to all.
It's also good to remember your "one bite at a time" metaphor.
One person, one heart at a time. That is the "soul" of true inspiration, I think -- working from the ground up.
Peace & blessings,
7L
Sapphirez
28-06-2011, 06:51 AM
wow Moke that is quite a statement. that's cool you have such confidence.. I wish you'd hurry though, I am impatient and 8 years is kinda long..
I found what you and what 7luminaries said particularly interesting.
I think part of understanding is working in the realm of your understanding. Sure people can't learn everything right away, but you have to be armed with certain tools to progress most efficiently. i.e. ignorant isn't bliss and knowledge is power. there are probably many people capable of transforming but they aren't even aware they ought to or could.
I thought of this because as I read this thread I thought of the book The Celestine Prophecy as it's the main tool in my kit thusfar. it's from the 90s if you haven't read it but I never heard of it or read it until just recently.
I'm reading the second book now but I've been procrastinating on it..
also since I've become more spiritual I've talked with more people; ones who are more spiritual who have said similar things as you all about helping others, and those who are not who fail to see my newly passionate point of views.. I still have a deal of healing to do on myself before I can become effective so it's frustrating but I don't give up in the meantime.
I think I am pretty aware in general but still an amateur idealist and there is tons for me to learn.
ok so being ready is part but there has to be some sort of intervention for people to learn what they should/could. it seems artificial in a way, but the state of mainstream living is so severely floundering that there needs to be some interfering. I guess I mean on a more individual level, like let's not let the government in on this lol..
hmm it sounds like suffering though is the key for becoming enlightened for many.
it's so sad and stupid how some use their suffering as a crutch instead of advancing. of course I am thinking of specific incidents of people I know, such as doing nothing or doing something lamer when there are natural effective alternatives medicinally and things like that..
ok I guess that's all :tongue:
LOL...yes, I think that's the crux of everything. Whether change is for the better or not will depend on us. And whether we change individually. As Gem noted...that means you and me. Not nameless faceless whoevers. All change is personal. Otherwise it's someone else's "change".
Change does hurt. It is painful. And yet we must come to a place of self acceptance and healing. Often, the love and acceptance required to heal own inner wounds are beyond the individual's current capacity or level. And yet they must heal in order to reach this level. How do we break past this conundrum?
Only through radical love and acceptance of ourselves and of one another, IMO.
Only through our connections and the love we give to and receive from one another. For many reasons. But also for no reason. Just because.
Peace & blessings,
7L
Very nice.
I don't know what it means to say 'level'... it's conditioning of the phsychology... a belief or a worth or an esteem.
People are just driven to overcome any problems, it's an inevitable consequence of 'true nature', so if it is accepted as true that the underlying and inate state of being is pure... wholesomness, not as a belief nor intellectual reckoning, but a total and bare faced admission of the truth, then all other quandries are seen to be inventions.
7luminaries
28-06-2011, 01:22 PM
Very nice.
I don't know what it means to say 'level'... it's conditioning of the phsychology... a belief or a worth or an esteem.
People are just driven to overcome any problems, it's an inevitable consequence of 'true nature', so if it is accepted as true that the underlying and inate state of being is pure... wholesomness, not as a belief nor intellectual reckoning, but a total and bare faced admission of the truth, then all other quandries are seen to be inventions.
I agree, we make our own prisons. Even if the scrap piles used to construct them may have been accumulated at the hand of others. Nothing else can hold us emotionally and spiritually except our own hand.
I also agree we are driven to overcome them. Why are some more successful? Why are so many relatively unsuccessful (let's not use the "f" word)? That relates both to our self-made prisons and to our capacity for healing at this moment.
There is a saying (Einstein) that a problem cannot be overcome at the same level of awareness that created it. That is exactly what I mean when I said the the love and acceptance required to heal own inner wounds are often beyond the individual's current capacity or level. And yet they must heal in order to reach this level.
Love and support allows for quantum leaps because we step beyond or outside the reach of boundaries. This is the place of healing and growth. And we can help to provide that space for one another, so that we can be at next level already when we get there. So that we can support, love and heal ourselves and each other.
Peace & blessings,
7L
sound
28-06-2011, 01:24 PM
Hi Gem
i cant get past the nature of beliefs as a means to support our suffering ...whenever I think/speak about beliefs it leads me in many different directions ... but yes ... in my experience what I choose to believe and uphold as 'truth' will determine the suffering i 'endure' for want of a more effective word ... its tricky because i am not convinced one can completely let go of beliefs, however it is their very 'nature which determines what is to 'be' known in a sense ... I know some people promote a 'lack' of beliefs ... i am not there yet :hug3:
This follows my last thread 'The Problem of Human Suffering', which served quite well to delve into the very heart of what it is to suffer, how deep it goes and how truely gruesome (and even worse) it is.
We have to look into that, get to the very bottom of it, because the roots of it holding very fast and have done throughout all human history.
To change is to ask why don't we change? It has be asked most deeply of the self. You know that if you don't change suffering will continue just as it has before... it's that simple.
The world won't have peace until the individuals have peace... that means you and me... the peace of the world is the magnitude of your responsibility.
Imagine your young child going to war and being shot to bits, blinded, maimed... that is the price we are pay, and have always payed, and that is the future of an agitated world... and your own peace is the only solution to it.
Now the only question left is, do you care? Care enough to really change?
If this can make the feeling rize, the determination, the motivation... then be relentlessly dilligent so as to be a light unto yourself, and by being so, a light into the world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ALQHlFI992Y&feature=related (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .youtube.com%252Fwatch%253Fv%253DALQHlFI992Y%2526a mp%253Bfeature%253Drelated)
7luminaries
28-06-2011, 01:35 PM
LOL...one man/woman's beliefs are another's prison, eh?
Sound if your beliefs cause you suffering, what do you do?
What if your belief is one of the innate worth of human life, say, and you see it compromised...perhaps even on a person level?
If you are forced to defend yourself...or you see a friend or neighbor tortured or killed, etc? Do you give up on your beliefs? Do you endure your suffering? If you choose the latter...then you eventually find your way back to seeking healing...
That's the part I was addressing...because it's here I find the issue particularly interesting and relevant...I agree many beliefs are fundamental to being sentient and spiritually aware...so we cannot just bin them and "numb out" to deal with suffering.
I think Buddha's approach is partial, in that awareness is just the first step toward our future and detachment is perhaps the grandest form of denial for many, so perhaps it's best for us not to get too comfortable pausing along the roadside to catch our breath either :)
Peace & blessings,
7L
sound
28-06-2011, 01:42 PM
7L :hug3: I will definitely return tomorrow and respond ... my day has come to an end here and i want to give myself time to reflect on your question :)
7luminaries
28-06-2011, 01:48 PM
:hug3: cheers & nite nite...
I agree, we make our own prisons. Even if the scrap piles used to construct them may have been accumulated at the hand of others. Nothing else can hold us emotionally and spiritually except our own hand.
I also agree we are driven to overcome them. Why are some more successful? Why are so many relatively unsuccessful (let's not use the "f" word)? That relates both to our self-made prisons and to our capacity for healing at this moment.
There is a saying (Einstein) that a problem cannot be overcome at the same level of awareness that created it. That is exactly what I mean when I said the the love and acceptance required to heal own inner wounds are often beyond the individual's current capacity or level. And yet they must heal in order to reach this level.
Love and support allows for quantum leaps because we step beyond or outside the reach of boundaries. This is the place of healing and growth. And we can help to provide that space for one another, so that we can be at next level already when we get there. So that we can support, love and heal ourselves and each other.
Peace & blessings,
7L
I don't believe in levels, and I have no way of asserting this level on one and some other level on another, I know these impositions are only used to place the self somewhere.
This only places one above the next, a kind of spirituall heirachy I have always been subject to, but luckily for me have never bought into.
I find nothing constructive is looking up a level above and looking down a level below, and have no notions at all of myself being at some level.
sound
29-06-2011, 02:09 PM
LOL...one man/woman's beliefs are another's prison, eh?
So they believe lol
Sound if your beliefs cause you suffering, what do you do?
Well often, that is revealed, through less than effective outcomes, which have a habit of repeating themselves over and over until i make the connection lol ... ultimately with probably as much forethought as has gone into this post, i let them go and see what surfaces. It has taken me a long time to shift into that 'space' but it was crucial to my ongoing 'experience that i did, if you can read between the lines there my friend x
What if your belief is one of the innate worth of human life, say, and you see it compromised...perhaps even on a person level?
Innate feelings of human worth, for me, are not simple beliefs ... they are realizations which dont shift with my conscious 'egoistic' perspective lol that statement reminds me of that cartoon Hugo Ago Go lol he was some super detective i think lol ...
If you are forced to defend yourself...or you see a friend or neighbor tortured or killed, etc? Do you give up on your beliefs? Do you endure your suffering? If you choose the latter...then you eventually find your way back to seeking healing...
If i dont endure the suffering i attach to those scenarios i don't maintain the presence of mind to detail my experience ... suffering is ended by one means or another or another or another ... whether it be through the examination of beliefs or the cessation of ones life giving breath ... bottom line in one sense ...
That's the part I was addressing...because it's here I find the issue particularly interesting and relevant...I agree many beliefs are fundamental to being sentient and spiritually aware...so we cannot just bin them and "numb out" to deal with suffering.
Most definitely not 7L ... well, truth be known, we can believe we are just 'binning them' and 'numbing out', however, feelings arise 'to be expressed' and within that generous framework, the scope is infinite ...
I think Buddha's approach is partial, in that awareness is just the first step toward our future and detachment is perhaps the grandest form of denial for many, so perhaps it's best for us not to get too comfortable pausing along the roadside to catch our breath either :)
I feel that part of our dilemma originates through trying to second guess that which is yet to be revealed lol xx
7luminaries
29-06-2011, 03:50 PM
I don't believe in levels, and I have no way of asserting this level on one and some other level on another, I know these impositions are only used to place the self somewhere.
This only places one above the next, a kind of spirituall heirachy I have always been subject to, but luckily for me have never bought into.
I find nothing constructive is looking up a level above and looking down a level below, and have no notions at all of myself being at some level.
Gem, level is just a word, perhaps not the best. I also have no notion of being at a particular level. I suppose capacity is a better word for what I was trying to say.
The main point was the Einstein conundrum and how we may often seek to expand our capacity for healing. The issue I wanted to discuss was how we "expand" beyond our capacity to heal ourselves...in order to have the capacity we need to heal ourselves.
Peace & blessings,
7L
7luminaries
29-06-2011, 04:20 PM
So they believe lol
Well often, that is revealed, through less than effective outcomes, which have a habit of repeating themselves over and over until i make the connection lol ... ultimately with probably as much forethought as has gone into this post, i let them go and see what surfaces. It has taken me a long time to shift into that 'space' but it was crucial to my ongoing 'experience that i did, if you can read between the lines there my friend x
I do and I agree...well said...on the one hand, what is there to add, LOL?
At the same time, acceptance is a 2-way street. It's not all on you, or on me, etc.
I have also come to see that other's rights to limit your connection are no more important than your right to be accepted fully on all "levels" (pardon to Gem)...
Ergo...if they will not do so, you or I or whomever are free to set our own limits. Limits are not just for the initial "limiter". LOL. The "limitee" is also a "limiter".
I.e, by stepping away, you limit the limitations, or restrictions, put upon you.
I limit your ability to limit your acceptance of me.
Or, I limit your ability to interact with me in such a limited way.
That's not acceptable to me, and I won't be or can't be confined by your limits.
Like with my ex, who had depression and was unable to interact. When he wouldn't get help, after several years, I had to limit our interaction...i.e. get a divorce...and it was necessary for my own emotional health and wellbeing. If others play the limits game at the most fundamental levels, then I find removal of self is the normally best option.
Innate feelings of human worth, for me, are not simple beliefs ... they are realizations which dont shift with my conscious 'egoistic' perspective lol that statement reminds me of that cartoon Hugo Ago Go lol he was some super detective i think lol ...
I agree. I think much of what we call emotion is the orientation of the soul. To separate compassion or joy or many other fundamental aspects of the soul amounts to a sort of murder or death or trauma. It is the truth of who I am that doesn't change rapidly but rather is revealed or unveiled or polished over time. These are not the same as passing sensations that many call emotion. Again, we don't have enough words to describe the differences but I think we all understand.
If i dont endure the suffering i attach to those scenarios i don't maintain the presence of mind to detail my experience ... suffering is ended by one means or another or another or another ... whether it be through the examination of beliefs or the cessation of ones life giving breath ... bottom line in one sense ...
True. But do you seek healing? How do you cope? I am pretty much assuming that people seek healing or at least a way to cope, which often leads to understanding the need to heal. This is where we can be of great assistance to one another. During times of war or disease or "acts of God"...or living in areas of deprivation etc...suffering and loss are widespread.
Often the only things we can offer one another is the only thing we truly need -- the love and support, the compassion and understanding of one soul to another.
Most definitely not 7L ... well, truth be known, we can believe we are just 'binning them' and 'numbing out', however, feelings arise 'to be expressed' and within that generous framework, the scope is infinite ...
I feel that part of our dilemma originates through trying to second guess that which is yet to be revealed lol xx
;) I try not to second guess...I just try to stay with whatever, LOL...
but I suppose I can work on that one. I have a habit of calling it like I see it, and if I have only partial info, well, c'est la vie :tongue:
It reminds me of that "classic line" in Mr. Magorium's Wonder Emporium. Which I highly recommend, btw.
Magorium to Mutant "Mutant, I have something very important to tell you!"
To Molly after his call to Mutant cuts out: "Oh well...he'll figure it out".
:tongue:
:hug3:
Peace, blessings, & much love
7L
7luminaries
29-06-2011, 04:34 PM
A friend just sent this...it seemed somehow relevant to what Sound & I were just discussing...& if not, hope you enjoy anyway :hug3:
A parable is told of a farmer who owned an old mule. The
mule fell into the farmer's well. The farmer heard the mule
'braying' -- or whatever mules do when they fall into wells.
After carefully assessing the situation, the farmer felt
sorry for the mule, but decided that neither the mule nor
the well was worth saving. Instead, he called his neighbors
together and told them what had happened and asked them to
help haul dirt to bury the old mule in the well and put him
out of his misery.
Initially, the old mule was hysterical! But as the farmer
and his neighbors continued shoveling and the dirt hit his
back, a thought struck him. It suddenly dawned on him that
every time a shovel load of dirt landed on his back: he
should shake it off and step up! This is what the old mule
did, blow after blow. "Shake it off and step up... shake
it off and step up... shake it off and step up!" he repeated
to encourage himself.
No matter how painful the blows, or distressing the situation
seemed, the old mule fought 'panic' and just kept right on shaking
it off and stepping up! You guessed it! It wasn't long before
the old mule, battered and exhausted, stepped triumphantly
over the wall of that well!
What seemed like it would bury him, actually end up
blessing him. All because of the manner in which he handled
his adversity.
--------------------------------------
May we all be old mules in the face of adversity :hug:
:hug3: 7L
bubblyglot
30-06-2011, 01:26 AM
Im trying to change so I can be a light in the world too!:D :D i loveee you allllll xoxo
Gem, level is just a word, perhaps not the best. I also have no notion of being at a particular level. I suppose capacity is a better word for what I was trying to say.
The main point was the Einstein conundrum and how we may often seek to expand our capacity for healing. The issue I wanted to discuss was how we "expand" beyond our capacity to heal ourselves...in order to have the capacity we need to heal ourselves.
Peace & blessings,
7L
I have no clue, and looking back can't even see that I've healed anything, certainly been aware of a growing 'conundrum' though.
breath
30-06-2011, 04:45 AM
I believe the Buddha and his followers in the many different traditions solved this problem.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPMnMmnZ2Zc
This link helped a suffering and scared drug addict feel "more relaxed than" he'd "ever been." He ended up saying that he actually wanted the suffering of the withdrawals, that he wanted to go through it to get off of them. Any bit of media that can do that can most likely make most regular people feel deeply penetrated and reminded of their awakened state.
for me, this little bit of media is here like a connection to the other world we refuse to wake up to. As if within a dream, there is one character who always reminds you that you are dreaming.
Sapphirez
30-06-2011, 04:47 AM
that's a cool story about the mule ♥
Oh yeah, now I remember I quit drinking and drugs, which is probably why I initially couldn't remember.
7luminaries
30-06-2011, 04:06 PM
I have no clue, and looking back can't even see that I've healed anything, certainly been aware of a growing 'conundrum' though.
LOL. Yes I feel that when I speak to many, they don't yet see the conundrum. Though then again many do, and they find it to be frustrating. Years of work on the self etc...for such hard-earned bits of self-awareness or even for some occasional major leaps forward...
I truly feel...just my own personal experience...that healing is largely a communal effort, whether a community of two or of many who direct love and light to you. There is a synergy, where the energy of two or more is somehow far greater than any individual energy...which seems inconsistent with what we all know spiritually, and yet this paradox is the key.
A "safe space" or a "sacred space" is made, where a foundation of pure love and acceptance is created in order for us to do our inner work...to accept and heal and "break through" even in some small way. And once we learn how to get over the biggest humps...the rest becomes easier because we've learned that there is untold strength or power in our communal or joint healing efforts.
Peace & blessings,
7L
The only way to end suffering is the end of that which suffers.
Though we can use tools to facillitate this, it is not in our hands to bring it about.
We do what we can, and then it's Grace.
Often, the love and acceptance required to heal own inner wounds are beyond the individual's current capacity or level. And yet they must heal in order to reach this level. How do we break past this conundrum?
Only through radical love and acceptance of ourselves and of one another, IMO.Yes, suffering ends through the healing powers of accepting and radical love, which are in short supply at this time in our world.
There is no difficulty that enough love will not conquer
No disease that enough love will not heal;
No door that enough love will not open
No gulf that enough love will not bridge
No wall that enough love will not throw down…
It makes no difference how deeply seated may be the trouble
How hopeless the outlook, how muddled the tangle, how great the mistake
A sufficient realization of love will resolve it all.
- Emmet Fox
Yet the conundrum remains... how do we love enough? Certainly not by 'trying' to love someone when we don't feel it.
However, the infinite source of love is already within and all around us. We are like people holding small cups of love for each other while sitting in the love ocean.
We break past our limitations in loving by discovering this unboundaried supply of Love Itself... through the gateway of our inner heart.
Then we may become conduits for the grace of love.
Xan
For me the standard line is the oft repeated and sounds wonderful, but also I find it like eating a huge cake, it's so sweet and theres so much if I swallow it it makes me sick.
Lisa just says something which isn't popular because it has no appeal to sentiment, but how can it denied?
There is pain and pleasure, that's just experienced, and I can demostrate by first being gentle then sticking a needle in your eye.
If one craves the beauty and and picks the most flamboyant flowers he also leaves something less beautiful behind him, something mundane and less colourful, and if one feasts only on the deserts he becomes ill afterward.
People are craving something which isn't there, wonderful deserts, but right now I might feel **** over my dead baby or I might be being raped or someone is murdering my mother... then the ideal love fairy tale means nothing.
7luminaries
01-07-2011, 02:04 PM
The only way to end suffering is the end of that which suffers.
Though we can use tools to facillitate this, it is not in our hands to bring it about.
We do what we can, and then it's Grace.
YES. That is so very true.
:hug3:
Peace & blessings,
7L
7luminaries
01-07-2011, 02:06 PM
Yes, suffering ends through the healing powers of accepting and radical love, which are in short supply at this time in our world.
There is no difficulty that enough love will not conquer
No disease that enough love will not heal;
No door that enough love will not open
No gulf that enough love will not bridge
No wall that enough love will not throw down…
It makes no difference how deeply seated may be the trouble
How hopeless the outlook, how muddled the tangle, how great the mistake
A sufficient realization of love will resolve it all.
- Emmet Fox
Yet the conundrum remains... how do we love enough? Certainly not by 'trying' to love someone when we don't feel it.
However, the infinite source of love is already within and all around us. We are like people holding small cups of love for each other while sitting in the love ocean.
We break past our limitations in loving by discovering this unboundaried supply of Love Itself... through the gateway of our inner heart.
Then we may become conduits for the grace of love.
Xan
Also very true.
This is the part where we do what we can...
and then by opening the heart...
we get out of our own way :hug3:
Peace & blessings,
7L
moke64916
01-07-2011, 02:32 PM
wow Moke that is quite a statement. that's cool you have such confidence.. I wish you'd hurry though, I am impatient and 8 years is kinda long..
I found what you and what 7luminaries said particularly interesting.
I think part of understanding is working in the realm of your understanding. Sure people can't learn everything right away, but you have to be armed with certain tools to progress most efficiently. i.e. ignorant isn't bliss and knowledge is power. there are probably many people capable of transforming but they aren't even aware they ought to or could.
I thought of this because as I read this thread I thought of the book The Celestine Prophecy as it's the main tool in my kit thusfar. it's from the 90s if you haven't read it but I never heard of it or read it until just recently.
I'm reading the second book now but I've been procrastinating on it..
also since I've become more spiritual I've talked with more people; ones who are more spiritual who have said similar things as you all about helping others, and those who are not who fail to see my newly passionate point of views.. I still have a deal of healing to do on myself before I can become effective so it's frustrating but I don't give up in the meantime.
I think I am pretty aware in general but still an amateur idealist and there is tons for me to learn.
ok so being ready is part but there has to be some sort of intervention for people to learn what they should/could. it seems artificial in a way, but the state of mainstream living is so severely floundering that there needs to be some interfering. I guess I mean on a more individual level, like let's not let the government in on this lol..
hmm it sounds like suffering though is the key for becoming enlightened for many.
it's so sad and stupid how some use their suffering as a crutch instead of advancing. of course I am thinking of specific incidents of people I know, such as doing nothing or doing something lamer when there are natural effective alternatives medicinally and things like that..
ok I guess that's all :tongue:
I will start this business in 2015. I know it will work. I see my future. I will bring a new collective conscious to the table. I am a natural born leader. My business idea will open up more doors and more opportunities. I will also be a motivational speaker. I will revolutionalize psychology or create a new field of business all in itself. No one has this idea. My best friend knows people in the white house, and in Big business. All what I got to do is get a pantent, start a franchise. I will not ever sell the pantent on matter how much money I am offered. It will have to be in 2015. After enough turmoil in the United States, business and economy will pick back up. People will be looking for new ways of living and how to run things. What the US has been doing is not working. I will jump in in 2015. In the meantime I am planning everything ahead of time. By 2020 it will be booming. Making enough money to start any other ideas I choose to do. I can make my own TV network. Franchise business for mediums and psychics in the long run. There will be a lot of enlightenment in the future. I see it already. Eventually I will go international. It will shift world wide collective consciousness in the longrun. I know it will work. My idea is a secret though. I cannot share it with anyone. I'm the only one I think that has this idea. For success in business people either use what is already available as in material or whatever to make a new product. This idea is not a material. It is not something that is taught already. Eventually it will be taught in colleges for people looking to work in it as a career.
P.S.- It's a good thing to be friends with a Mason. Masons know people that have made it big in this world. Like a network of people.
7luminaries
01-07-2011, 02:43 PM
For me the standard line is the oft repeated and sounds wonderful, but also I find it like eating a huge cake, it's so sweet and theres so much if I swallow it it makes me sick.
Lisa just says something which isn't popular because it has no appeal to sentiment, but how can it denied?
There is pain and pleasure, that's just experienced, and I can demostrate by first being gentle then sticking a needle in your eye.
If one craves the beauty and and picks the most flamboyant flowers he also leaves something less beautiful behind him, something mundane and less colourful, and if one feasts only on the deserts he becomes ill afterward.
People are craving something which isn't there, wonderful deserts, but right now I might feel **** over my dead baby or I might be being raped or someone is murdering my mother... then the ideal love fairy tale means nothing.
Love has nothing to do with beauty except that real love is the only real or lasting beauty, which does not pass away. I agree with what you say, and I also agree that unless you love in wholeness and entirety, it is not real love...it is the cake you tire of. And yet, often, we are the cake not because we lack substance or authenticity. Not because we do not possess the capacity of being love. But because we don't love in wholeness and entirety. It relates to that trite but very true saying, that we give what we have inside.
The cake may be real love, except that we cannot see its true nature and instead take only bits. Loving in bits and pieces...like cake...can't sustain life in any long-term or satisying way. Real love is meat...it is substantial. And real love is the whole package, it's life, "good" and "bad"...it is tender flesh and gristle both.
Did anyone else ever read the Velveteen Rabbit? Should be required reading, I think. According to the Skin Horse, love is what makes (us) real. Or, love makes reality. Now this accords with what the mystics have always said. That love is the fabric and that God is love. But it also can mean that love makes us fully human, or "real" in the sense of realisation. None of that has to do with a fairy tale of love as far as beauty or perfection goes. Unless transformation or healing (or even the existence or awareness of love and of all) is viewed as miraculous. Which in some sense, it all actually is.
My view on suffering is, like Xan's and probably many others here...is that we can and should give love & support to ourselves & to others in the form of compassion and sharing. There is a place for our judgment and for setting limits and boundaries. But everything should be done with respect for one another as fellow humans. Everyone's individual body & consciousness should be respected, their thoughts, intentions, feelings, etc.
Not that anyone would necessarily disagree of course, and this is no comment on anyone in particular. I feel very strongly that it's the height of arrogance to treat another adult with disregard or disdain, and personally I feel there is never a place for it. I mention it because it has always been a very important line in the sand for me. I have seen that some tend to trivialise the awareness or the orientation of others (by orientation, some call this perception and some call it feeling). And yet my awareness and my orientation are part of the fabric of my being and of my soul. Who am I to disregard those of another? And to do so is so dehumanising that for me, of course it belongs in any discussion on suffering.
To the degree we can simply address this within ourselves and treat ourselves and others with more love and more respect, we can begin to build more trust and good regard and make concrete strides toward some diminishing of suffering, no matter how temporary. Because everything is now after all. One moment will flow to the next, but we should work on making this moment the best we can, the most real and truthful and compassionate. Since his moment is all there really ever is.
Peace & blessings,
7L
For me the standard line is the oft repeated and sounds wonderful, but also I find it like eating a huge cake, it's so sweet and theres so much if I swallow it it makes me sick.
Lisa just says something which isn't popular because it has no appeal to sentiment, but how can it denied?
There is pain and pleasure, that's just experienced, and I can demostrate by first being gentle then sticking a needle in your eye.
If one craves the beauty and and picks the most flamboyant flowers he also leaves something less beautiful behind him, something mundane and less colourful, and if one feasts only on the deserts he becomes ill afterward.
People are craving something which isn't there, wonderful deserts, but right now I might feel **** over my dead baby or I might be being raped or someone is murdering my mother... then the ideal love fairy tale means nothing.
Here's an experiment you could try, Gem... When it feels like someone is sticking a needle in your eye go into your inner heart and notice if there's a difference in how you experience the pain.
Nothing to lose, right? Except maybe your doubt about love's real power.
(Of course, it's best to practice ahead of time so you're prepared for being love even in the worst of times.)
Xan
Sapphirez: wow Moke that is quite a statement. that's cool you have such confidence.. I wish you'd hurry though, I am impatient and 8 years is kinda long..
Fortunately we don't have to wait 8 years for moke to go public. There are many clear awakened teachers available to us now.
One you might be interested in for her gracious, direct approach to discovering the truth of yourself is Gangaji: http://gangaji.org (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fgangaji.org)
Another, who doesn't teach but awakens, heals and transforms simply by "gazing", is Braco. http://braco.net/?page_id=152 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fbraco.net)
Xan
Here's an experiment you could try, Gem... When it feels like someone is sticking a needle in your eye go into your inner heart and notice if there's a difference in how you experience the pain.
Nothing to lose, right? Except maybe your doubt about love's real power.
(Of course, it's best to practice ahead of time so you're prepared for being love even in the worst of times.)
Xan
Gem-
There is pain and pleasure, that's just experienced, and I can demostrate by first being gentle then sticking a needle in your eye.
You are not talking about the same thing.
Jesus on the cross- My God, My God (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwik i%2FSayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross%23Matthew_27%3A4 6), why have you forsaken me (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwik i%2FSayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross%23Mark_15%3A34), (Matthew 27:46 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbibref.hebtools.com%2F %3Fbook%3D%2520Matthew%26amp%3Bverse%3D27%3A46%26a mp%3Bsrc%3D%21) and Mark 15:34 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbibref.hebtools.com%2F %3Fbook%3D%2520Mark%26amp%3Bverse%3D15%3A34%26amp% 3Bsrc%3D%21)).
I thirst (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwik i%2FSayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross%23John_19%3A28) (John 19:28 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fbibref.hebtools.com%2F %3Fbook%3D%2520John%26amp%3Bverse%3D19%3A28%26amp% 3Bsrc%3D%21)).Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj—My Recollections
© Copyright 1981/2007 by Timothy Conway, PhD
[The following materials, with just a few clarifications, are verbatim diary notes and tape-transcriptions that I made while visiting from January 9-22, 1981, with the illustrious sage of advaita-nondual wisdom, Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj (1897-1981) of Bombay, India.
The Maharaj, whose body was already showing the serious effects of throat cancer, expired just eight months later on September 8, 1981. I am boundlessly grateful to the venerable old sage for tirelessly speaking to us and patiently interacting with us, despite his severe physical pain, for the sake of awakening us from our attachments and final illusions.
(Dharma talk at Le Sheng Nursing Home )
The Buddha told us, "Human life is suffering". We all need to understand and recognize the meaning of this. The Buddha also said, "The human body is an illness, a carbuncle, and an ulcer, and this is what we all experience." We all experience the conditions of sickness and suffering. But all human and sentient beings cannot avoid illness and suffering. The only differences are less suffering, or more suffering, less sickness, or more sickness!
Did these Spiritual Masters go into their inner heart and notice a difference in how they experienced pain?
It doesn't seem as if Jesus did. Nisargadatta didn't. And even if the Buddha did, he suffered less, but still suffered.
What does love's power have to do with physical pain?
Or love's real power?
Does love even have power? Such a pure thing as this?
Extreme physical pain can be a tool for surrender.
"Not my will, but thy will be done."
The transcendence of self is then love known.
Real, pure, gentle, alive presence.
moke64916
01-07-2011, 06:36 PM
Love from the mind never lasts. True love that comes from self lasts a lifetime.
Lisa: You are not talking about the same thing.
You're right about that, Lisa.
Jesus on the cross- My God, My God (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252525252Fwiki%252 52525252FSayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross%25252525252 3Matthew_27%25252525253A46), why have you forsaken me (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fen.wikipedia.org%25252525252Fwiki%252 52525252FSayings_of_Jesus_on_the_cross%25252525252 3Mark_15%25252525253A34), (Matthew 27:46 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fbibref.hebtools.com%25252525252F%2525 2525253Fbook%25252525253D%25252525252520Matthew%25 2525252526amp%25252525253Bverse%25252525253D27%252 52525253A46%252525252526amp%25252525253Bsrc%252525 25253D%252525252521) and Mark 15:34 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fbibref.hebtools.com%25252525252F%2525 2525253Fbook%25252525253D%25252525252520Mark%25252 5252526amp%25252525253Bverse%25252525253D15%252525 25253A34%252525252526amp%25252525253Bsrc%252525252 53D%252525252521)).
Surely Jesus did have physical pain on the cross. Yet one interpretation of his cry is... in that moment Jesus broke through into no separation from God and so felt abandoned... only to realize oneness.
"The Maharaj, whose body was already showing the serious effects of throat cancer, expired just eight months later on September 8, 1981. I am boundlessly grateful to the venerable old sage for tirelessly speaking to us and patiently interacting with us, despite his severe physical pain, for the sake of awakening us from our attachments and final illusions"
This points to what I said earlier in this thread... there is a distinction between pain, of the body and emotions... and suffering, which is only of the mind.
Who suffers? The self-identified mind.
If Nisargadatta could be tirelessly and patiently teaching even while in physical pain he must not have been suffering in his mind, eh?
(Dharma talk at Le Sheng Nursing Home )
The Buddha told us, "Human life is suffering". We all need to understand and recognize the meaning of this. The Buddha also said, "The human body is an illness, a carbuncle, and an ulcer, and this is what we all experience." We all experience the conditions of sickness and suffering. But all human and sentient beings cannot avoid illness and suffering. The only differences are less suffering, or more suffering, less sickness, or more sickness!
The Buddha was speaking to unawakened people who truly can't escape suffering.
He is less well-known for his determination to find the way beyond suffering while here in the world, which he did.
Did these Spiritual Masters go into their inner heart and notice a difference in how they experienced pain?
umm.... Since these are true Masters they must have already been aware in the inner/infinite heart, eh Lisa?
It doesn't seem as if Jesus did. Nisargadatta didn't.
And even if the Buddha did, he suffered less, but still suffered.
Are you sure about that? Or could he have been speaking about the condition of the general population?
What does love's power have to do with physical pain?
Or love's real power?
Does love even have power? Such a pure thing as this?
Love is the source and essence of everything. If you are thinking of 'power' as effort, no, but that's not love. Pure love itself is the creative matrix of existence... commonly well disguised.
Love does have power to heal, demonstrated in a variety of healing approaches and individual stories.
But my point is, your experience of pain, and of life, is not same without and with awareness in love.
Extreme physical pain can be a tool for surrender.
"Not my will, but thy will be done."
The transcendence of self is then love known.
Real, pure, gentle, alive presence.
Yes, anything can be an impetus for transcendence and surrender... or not.
As long as we're quoting true masters, here's this from Ramana Maharshi, who had an open lymphoma on his arm in his last few years of life. Someone asked him, "Do you feel pain?" He said, "Yes, but not as you do."
I offer the dare again: While in pain, or pleasure, or ordinary daily life (which is the best time to practice, really) also go into experiencing Love Itself through the inner heart gateway and find out for yourself if there is a difference.
Of course, if you've already made up your mind that there is no such thing as unboundaried unconditional love (as some here have) that would stand in the way of a truly objective experiment.
Xan
Lisa: You are not talking about the same thing.
Xan- You're right about that, Lisa.
:glasses3:
Lisa- Jesus on the cross- My God, My God (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%25252525252Fv b%25252525252Fredir.php%25252525253Flink%252525252 53Dhttp%2525252525253A%2525252525252F%252525252525 2Fwww.spiritualforums.com%2525252525252Fvb%2525252 525252Fredir.php%2525252525253Flink%2525252525253D http%252525252525253A%252525252525252F%25252525252 5252Fwww.spiritualforums.com%252525252525252Fvb%25 2525252525252Fredir.php%252525252525253Flink%25252 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Xan- Yes of course Jesus felt pain. Yet one interpretation of this cry is, in that moment Jesus experienced no more separation from God and so thought he was abandoned... only to discover oneness.
He experienced separation from God, and so thought he was abandoned..only to discover oneness. Yes. That's IT. That's the hokey pokey. That's what it's all about.
Lisa- The Maharaj, whose body was already showing the serious effects of throat cancer, expired just eight months later on September 8, 1981. I am boundlessly grateful to the venerable old sage for tirelessly speaking to us and patiently interacting with us, despite his severe physical pain, for the sake of awakening us from our attachments and final illusions.
Xan- Here we come to the distinction between physical pain, and suffering which in my view is of the mind, as I mentioned earlier in the thread.
Yes. Suffering takes a self. But pain is pain. A needle in the eye, even if going into the inner heart- is gonna hurt. No self? It still would hurt- but like you quoted Ramana Maharshi, "Do you experience pain?" He said, "Yes, but not as you do."
But unless there is no self- or put it- Self Realization, suffering will be there, perhaps less with a practice.
Xan- Since Nisargadatta could be tireless and patient in teaching and interacting while in pain he must not have been suffering in his mind, eh?
Watch the "eh"- a wee attack. But yes, you are absolutely right. It's the self that suffers. With all examples here of Masters, they still feel pain, but yes, not suffer as most of us do. But since most of us still have a self that can suffer- going into the inner heart with a needle in the eye may help somewhat, but if there is a self, there will be some frigg'n suffering. lol
Lisa (Dharma talk at Le Sheng Nursing Home )
The Buddha told us, "Human life is suffering". We all need to understand and recognize the meaning of this. The Buddha also said, "The human body is an illness, a carbuncle, and an ulcer, and this is what we all experience." We all experience the conditions of sickness and suffering. But all human and sentient beings cannot avoid illness and suffering. The only differences are less suffering, or more suffering, less sickness, or more sickness!
Xan- The Buddha was talking to people unawakened who truly can't avoid suffering.
Well neither of us know this to be true.
Lisa- Did these Spiritual Masters go into their inner heart and notice a difference in how they experienced pain?
Xan- Well these spiritual masters must already be aware in the inner/infinite heart, silly girl.
Ha! Point. I'm not as good as you are at arguing. :tongue:
And you win an extra point for '"silly girl." For a moment there all my grey was gone!
Lisa-It doesn't seem as if Jesus did. Nisargadatta didn't. And even if the Buddha did, he suffered less, but still suffered.
What does love's power have to do with physical pain?
Or love's real power?
Does love even have power? Such a pure thing as this?
Xan-Love is the source and essence of everything. If we think of power as effort no, but that's not love. If we think of love as the creative matrix of existence... well yes, it's all the power there is though often disguised.
Okay. But I can't think of love. mmmm that leaf floating at the edge of a puddle.
that melting feeling like i hope i never see another sight for nothing is more than this, death by beauty, that pain of sublime wonder.. i can't think of love.
Lisa- Extreme physical pain can be a tool for surrender.
"Not my will, but thy will be done."
The transcendence of self is then love known.
Real, pure, gentle, alive presence.
Xan- Yes... Anything can be a tool for transcendence and surrender... or not.
I disagree. Most things are distractions not tools for surrender.
Xan- As long as we're quoting dead masters,
I see a wee attack in that.
Xan- there's Ramana Maharshi who had a terrible open lymphoma on his arm for his last few years of life. Someone said, "Do you experience pain?" He said, "Yes, but not as you do."
I offer the dare again: Experience pain, or pleasure, or ordinary daily life while also experiencing love itself within and all around you. Then notice the difference.
Of course if you've already made up your mind that pure love Itself doesn't exist (as some here have) that could definitely get in the way of an objective experiment.
A wee attack here too. If your speaking about love and experiencing love itself within and all around you, then that love that you speak of would be forthcoming and felt. But when used in the form of debate or argument, it becomes a thing of irony.
:hug3:
Lisa... I'm sorry you responded before my editing.
I intend and feel no attack... only reaching for clear expression.
Xan
It's always this thing about 'real love' or 'true love. Thats what ones seek, desire and crave. The SF gurus tempt them and evoke this sense that there is something still to chase... some future conjunction, leaving this momentary experience as is inadequate, and the person themself unacceptable unless they aquire what is presented to them as a carrot on a stick.
I have read all these things but they've been preached and listened to and chased for thousands of years and to little effect... because these ideals only bring people to think 'I don't have this wonderment I want this wonderment If I could only have this wonderment I would be free... and the craving for it escalates, the desire for it becomes obsessive, and again the truth of what is felt right here and now is what is truely forsaken.
I patiently wait until this overt demonstration of how loving everyone is passes by.
If your speaking about love and experiencing love itself within and all around you, then that love that you speak of would be forthcoming and felt.
I don't find this necessarily so, Lisa. Someone may be experiencing love within themselves which doesn't always emanate outward, or not in the ways people tend to expect. I have a cool exterior but love itself is in my awareness all the time nowadays. How it gets expressed and who receives it is not in my control.
"Being a loving person" and Being Love as our essence are two different things.
I keep repeating myself on this issue because there really is something wonderful to experience and discover for oneself beyond all our ideas about love.
Xan
Originally Posted by Lisa
If your speaking about love and experiencing love itself within and all around you, then that love that you speak of would be forthcoming and felt.
This is true... I need to feel it moving...
Sapphirez
02-07-2011, 08:49 AM
I will start this business in 2015. I know it will work. I see my future. I will bring a new collective conscious to the table. I am a natural born leader. My business idea will open up more doors and more opportunities. I will also be a motivational speaker. I will revolutionalize psychology or create a new field of business all in itself. No one has this idea. My best friend knows people in the white house, and in Big business. All what I got to do is get a pantent, start a franchise. I will not ever sell the pantent on matter how much money I am offered. It will have to be in 2015. After enough turmoil in the United States, business and economy will pick back up. People will be looking for new ways of living and how to run things. What the US has been doing is not working. I will jump in in 2015. In the meantime I am planning everything ahead of time. By 2020 it will be booming. Making enough money to start any other ideas I choose to do. I can make my own TV network. Franchise business for mediums and psychics in the long run. There will be a lot of enlightenment in the future. I see it already. Eventually I will go international. It will shift world wide collective consciousness in the longrun. I know it will work. My idea is a secret though. I cannot share it with anyone. I'm the only one I think that has this idea. For success in business people either use what is already available as in material or whatever to make a new product. This idea is not a material. It is not something that is taught already. Eventually it will be taught in colleges for people looking to work in it as a career.
P.S.- It's a good thing to be friends with a Mason. Masons know people that have made it big in this world. Like a network of people.
thanks for the Mason tip.. I'll keep my eyes out. they work with stone or something right?
well moke I'm sorry but it sounds like you're gonna charge the world to save it.. what about the many that won't be able to get your magical idea? and what about all the people who are suffering so bad right now and will be for the next few years? well I guess you'll have a long time to come up with a phenomenal market plan to reach as many people as possible.. but still many people are not going to be financially stable in 2015 either. I guess I can't say much more since it's a secret and I don't know exactly what I'm talking about.. but it just sounds kind of a shame.. that it seems you're more concerned with material wealth than helping people. You seem kind and good but in your post it seems what I just said is evident..
It's always this thing about 'real love' or 'true love. Thats what ones seek, desire and crave. The SF gurus tempt them and evoke this sense that there is something still to chase... some future conjunction, leaving this momentary experience as is inadequate, and the person themself unacceptable unless they aquire what is presented to them as a carrot on a stick.
I have read all these things but they've been preached and listened to and chased for thousands of years and to little effect... because these ideals only bring people to think 'I don't have this wonderment I want this wonderment If I could only have this wonderment I would be free... and the craving for it escalates, the desire for it becomes obsessive, and again the truth of what is felt right here and now is what is truely forsaken.
I patiently wait until this overt demonstration of how loving everyone is passes by.
I really like this. I understand it. It is true.
I don't find this necessarily so, Lisa. Someone may be experiencing love within themselves which doesn't always emanate outward, or not in the ways people tend to expect. I have a cool exterior but love itself is in my awareness all the time nowadays. How it gets expressed and who receives it is not in my control.
"Being a loving person" and Being Love as our essence are two different things.
I keep repeating myself on this issue because there really is something wonderful to experience and discover for oneself beyond all our ideas about love.
Xan
I really like this. I understand it. It is true.
sound
02-07-2011, 03:49 PM
I really like this. I understand it. It is true.
I really like this ... I understand it. It is true :hug3:
I really like this ... I understand it. It is true :hug3:
I hear an echo Sound. :hug3:
ELEPHANT AND THE BLIND MEN
(an oldie but goodie)
Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."
They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was.
Everyone of them touched the elephant.
"Hey, the elephant is a pillar," said the first man who touched his leg.
"Oh, no! it is like a rope," said the second man who touched the tail.
"Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree," said the third man who touched the trunkof the elephant.
"It is like a big hand fan" said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.
"It is like a huge wall," said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.
"It is like a solid pipe," Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.
They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated.
A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the elephant is like." Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like.
The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said."
"Oh!" everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right.
The moral of the story is that there may be some truth to what someone says. Sometimes we can see that truth and sometimes not because they may have different perspective which we may not agree too. So, rather than arguing like the blind men, we should say, "Maybe you have your reasons." This way we don’t get in arguments.
(Not that there’s anything wrong with arguments.) :boxing:
:hug:
http://www.junglewalk.com/animal-pictures/625/African-Elephant-4535.jpg
There's another happy ending that I first heard to this story.
Someone comes along and performs a miracle and all the blind men see the whole elephant and say "oh!"
Some also say there is no such thing as elephant or... no one really sees this elephant even if there is one (sort of the sour grapes approach).
But then...
Xan
True freedom and the end of suffering is living in such a way as if you had completely chosen whatever you feel or experience at this moment. This inner alignment with Now is the end of suffering. Is suffering really necessary? Yes and no. If you had not suffered as you have, there would be no depth to you as a human being, no humility, no compassion. You would not be reading this now. Suffering cracks open the shell of ego, and then comes a point when it has served its purpose. Suffering is necessary until you realize it is unnecessary.
Eckhart Tolle
Xan- There's another happy ending that I first heard to this story.
Someone comes along and performs a miracle and all the blind men see the whole elephant and say "oh!"
That's cool!
Some also say there is no such thing as elephant or... no one really sees this elephant even if there is one (sort of the sour grapes approach).
ha! Even the story has different perspectives.
But then...
there was cake? :occasion15:
The end of suffering
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Gq1jO6iuU2U/SF6z2nZwboI/AAAAAAAACRg/h7tFBKClxx0/s400/Flower_lying_down_1024x768%252Bnature%252Bflowers% 252Bwallpapers%252Bstockwallpapers.blogspot.com.jp g
The end of suffering
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rwOD7efnzLU/Td9pYHEXHXI/AAAAAAAAANA/RJNrPsvhuhs/s1600/stress_relieved_womanjpg.jpg
True freedom and the end of suffering is living in such a way as if you had completely chosen whatever you feel or experience at this moment. This inner alignment with Now is the end of suffering.
Is suffering really necessary? Yes and no. If you had not suffered as you have, there would be no depth to you as a human being, no humility, no compassion. You would not be reading this now.
Suffering cracks open the shell of ego, and then comes a point when it has served its purpose. Suffering is necessary until you realize it is unnecessary.
- E. Tolle, via Lisa
I really like this... I experience this, it's true.
Xan
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-SaYsWkboiKw/Tdm8kJx54fI/AAAAAAAAAIQ/8goxrPr2ie0/s1600/the_girl_in_the_rain_by_best10photos1.jpg
BlueSky
03-07-2011, 01:19 AM
For suffering to end..there would have to be no sense of who you are and if there was no sense of who you are, there would be no one to to tell the story about what it feels like to live with no suffering.
There is nothing to discuss excepts theories by people who suffer which IMO creates more suffering. Eh?
Why not concentrate on lessening suffering for ourselves and the world around us. We 'can' DO that.
James
For suffering to end..there would have to be no sense of who you are...
That's not my experience, James. In living aware in our true self there is still someone here, just not who you thought you were.
Suffering has ended for me yet clearly I am still here.
Xan
BlueSky
03-07-2011, 01:57 AM
That's not my experience, James. In living aware in our true self there is still someone here, just not who you thought you were.
Suffering has ended for me yet clearly I am still here.
Xan
"Suffering has ended for me".....I really don't know what that means from your perspective Xan and I am not here to try and convince you otherwise or to try and grasp what you are saying for my benefit. My statement was my belief based on my experiences. Experiences prove nothing in my experieince. What we feel or believe or believe we feel mean nothing...so your expereince is simply that.....your expereince.
Do you think it is more than that?
Do you think it is what I could/should expereince?
Should it be my goal IYO?
I'm just asking.................:smile:
Thanks for sharing.
For suffering to end..there would have to be no sense of who you are and if there was no sense of who you are, there would be no one to to tell the story about what it feels like to live with no suffering.
There is nothing to discuss excepts theories by people who suffer which IMO creates more suffering. Eh?
Why not concentrate on lessening suffering for ourselves and the world around us. We 'can' DO that.
James
It really hasn't been touched upon, the essence of what suffers nor the absence of that, because there is pain, that's as plain as there is pleasure, and one can't prevent either from their life, so what we call 'suffering' isn't the occurance of unpleasantry, if it were the end of suffering would mean the end of pleasure and pain.
Miss Hepburn
03-07-2011, 09:21 AM
Elephant and blind man story...
I often relate in a similar way when talking about "God".
That He is like a Diamond - multi-faceted ---you may be beneath looking at a facet on the underside...while someone is looking at a facet from the left side... another from above.
They describe "God" , this Diamond in the Sky - differently ---but, it's all the same Diamond.
:smile:
Elephant and blind man story...
I often relate in a similar way when talking about "God".
That He is like a Diamond - multi-faceted ---you may be beneath looking at a facet on the underside...while someone is looking at a facet from the left side... another from above.
They describe "God" , this Diamond in the Sky - differently ---but, it's all the same Diamond.
:smile:
Girl's best friend.
mattie
03-07-2011, 09:58 AM
... To change is to ask why don't we change? It has be asked most deeply of the self. You know that if you don't change suffering will continue just as it has before... it's that simple.
...
Many are changing substantially & actively working on both their self & the world around them.
This may not be as fast as we would prefer, but it is currently exponential w/ significant change occurring all around the world.
We can see the glass half full or half empty.
Or we can see that we could drop the glass, w/ it breaking into long shards, slipping on the spilt liquid, impaling an eye w/ the glass shards as we sever vital arteries w/ other shards. Of course, the eye being put out won’t really make much difference as we expect to quickly bleed to death from the severed artery. LOL.
➸➸➸ OR we could choose to simply savor every drop of the delicious drink we are holding, knowing that we can refill the glass anytime we want!!!
Many are changing substantially. This may not be as fast as we would prefer, but it is currently exponential.
We can see the glass half full or half empty.
Or we can see that we could drop the glass, w/ it breaking into long shards, slipping on the spilt liquid, impaling an eye w/ the glass shards as we sever vital arteries w/ other shards. Of course, the eye being put out won’t really make much difference as we expect to quickly bleed to death from the severed artery. LOL.
➸➸➸ OR we could choose to simply savor every drop of the delicious drink we are holding, knowing that we can refill the glass anytime we want!!!
People have habitual reactionary patterns based on the belief conditioned phsyche, and to simplify take the belief an eye for an eye... adherance to it is a continuation of revenge.
That's just the simplest of examples, but people harbour a variety of beliefs which are used to justify war, murder, deforestation and other destructive activity. In a more subtle way there are beliefs to do with self worth which are problematic for individuals.
I need not be an optimist nor be a fatalist, so a 1/2 glass is as full as it is empty.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deq_1lg9Dlo
BlueSky
03-07-2011, 12:21 PM
It really hasn't been touched upon, the essence of what suffers nor the absence of that, because there is pain, that's as plain as there is pleasure, and one can't prevent either from their life, so what we call 'suffering' isn't the occurance of unpleasantry, if it were the end of suffering would mean the end of pleasure and pain.
Yes and who wants that..........not me. :smile:
And thats the thing...we can't possibly want that because we could never conceive such a thing..............so if we want it, it most likely is simply that we don't want what we have.
There are better ways to change our lives...........as you know.
The answer for me laid in "why" I wanted that. Once that surfaced, the need left and life became wonderful again. Embraced fully and the feeling I am left with is best described as "complete".
moke64916
03-07-2011, 03:53 PM
True freedom and the end of suffering is living in such a way as if you had completely chosen whatever you feel or experience at this moment. This inner alignment with Now is the end of suffering.
Is suffering really necessary? Yes and no. If you had not suffered as you have, there would be no depth to you as a human being, no humility, no compassion. You would not be reading this now.
Suffering cracks open the shell of ego, and then comes a point when it has served its purpose. Suffering is necessary until you realize it is unnecessary.
- E. Tolle, via Lisa
I really like this... I experience this, it's true.
Xan
Very true. Resistance is part of the process until one realizes it is unnecessary. In other words, experience who you are not, in order to remember who you are. NOW! BOOM! Presenttttttttt. Present now?:smile:
Here's another on freedom from suffering from the wisdom of Eckhart Tolle:
When you are fully present and people around you manifest unconscious behavior, you won't feel the need to react to it, so you don't give it any reality.
Your peace is so vast and deep that anything that is not peace disappears into it as if it had never existed. This breaks the karmic cycle of action and reaction.
Animals, trees, flowers will feel your peace and respond to it. You teach through being, through demonstrating the peace of God.
You become the "light of the world," an emanation of pure consciousness, and so you eliminate suffering on the level of cause. You eliminate unconsciousness from the world.
- Eckhart Tolle, "Practicing the Power of Now"
Xan
As long as I'm in quoting mode:
You demand to know
How can Ram Tzu laugh
As you are being tortured?
Can't he see you
Being stretched
On a rack
Of your own thoughts?
Can't he see
Your pain
As your ego
Relentlessly turns the wheel?
Ram Tzu sees
You clutch the ropes
That appear to bind you.
There are no knots.
Nothing else holds you down.
- Ram Tzu
It's only that pleasures and pains happen, of course there's preference for the former, so 'want' is of the former, and people chase it thinking the 'end of suffering' is something of pleasure, but pleasure is of the same experience as pain (and preference) is.
Miss Hepburn
04-07-2011, 09:30 PM
Xan,
Every ET quote you put I paste to a lawyer friend - he says, Wow do they help him.
(Being sued by the richest man in Colorado presently! He's got some suffering!)
I got him to hand write a humble letter to the guy - what did he have to lose, right? Some of his suffering was lifted just by being real, instead of always dealing with a machine of corporate lawyers.
I even made him sign it, 'Humbly and sincerely,'
Major cool step for his spritual growth.
We make so much suffering for ourselves that can be uplifted through humility and honesty, imo.
Just an aside.
:smile: Thank you.
Miss Hepburn
04-07-2011, 09:33 PM
Ram Tzu sees
You clutch the ropes
That appear to bind you.
There are no knots.
Nothing else holds you down.
Paper chains, folks....paper chains!!
:hug3:
It's not a nice poem that means something, though I actually really like poetry... perhaps something nice is like a pleasantry that brings a good feeling for a while, but soon the tide changes and night follows the day.
It's only that pleasures and pains happen, of course there's preference for the former, so 'want' is of the former, and people chase it thinking the 'end of suffering' is something of pleasure, but pleasure is of the same experience as pain (and preference) is.
There is something beyond the pleasure/pain duality and that is our pure wholeness. When we are aware in this everything comes and goes, for sure, but "I" am completely okay... and more than okay.
Xan
Xan,
Every ET quote you put I paste to a lawyer friend - he says, Wow do they help him.
(Being sued by the richest man in Colorado presently! He's got some suffering!)
I got him to hand write a humble letter to the guy - what did he have to lose, right? Some of his suffering was lifted just by being real, instead of always dealing with a machine of corporate lawyers.
I even made him sign it, 'Humbly and sincerely,'
Major cool step for his spritual growth.
We make so much suffering for ourselves that can be uplifted through humility and honesty, imo.
Just an aside.
:smile: Thank you.
And thank you for your good hearted work, Miss H.
Xan
people must think I'm looking for an answer and keep telling me them, but all it is doing is setting up a structure and it soon leads to how 'I' am so such and such a love thingy, but I can't feel anything so I know nothing is really happening.
not human
05-07-2011, 07:13 AM
actually guys my experience is that change doesn't hurt ....just the resistance to change hurts if you shift the way of interacting than the attachment to the pain of change will fall away & this can certainly be acheived on an individual basis
actually guys my experience is that change doesn't hurt ....just the resistance to change hurts if you shift the way of interacting than the attachment to the pain of change will fall away & this can certainly be acheived on an individual basis
How ?
not human
05-07-2011, 09:06 AM
by awareness
by awareness
Thats cute .
not human
05-07-2011, 09:18 AM
cute? how so
not human
05-07-2011, 09:33 AM
a couple of posts & I've already experienced good old spiritual one upmanship I don't know why I bother good night & good bye this place is not for me
cute? how so
It's a pretend answer innit? I mean to be realistic, I am 'aware' that there is pleasurable things and painful things... so change is pleasurable in some instances and painful in others.
not human
05-07-2011, 10:50 AM
say what!!! how do you discern resistance to change ...awareness ......I'm talking on an individual basis here not collective conciousness the resistance is the cause of suffering the suffering doesn't exist without resistance nothing cute about it
say what!!! how do you discern resistance to change ...awareness ......I'm talking on an individual basis here not collective conciousness the resistance is the cause of suffering the suffering doesn't exist without resistance nothing cute about it
The answer 'awareness' was a cutsie... but I think there's something in that resistance and suffering as you say... please elaborate a little.
Oh... and don't worry about one up manship it's just the 'spiritual levels' vieing for position. tee hee.
not human
05-07-2011, 11:23 AM
oh good I got a chuckle...but honestly I can't conceptualize experiencing resistance to an extent that it would satisfy a mind....however when you choose to be aware of the very process of pain it's the fear of experiencing it that manifests the resistance that holds it in check but hey don't take my word for it...try this at home kids......& I'm still not on the same page with awareness being a naff answer might just be the different ways of looking at it
... but I can't feel anything so I know nothing is really happening.
Gem... All you really know is this something is not happening for you. It's a closed mind that says, "If I don't experience it, it doesn't exist." whereas a more honest response would be, "I don't know about that because I don't experience it."
Xan
actually guys my experience is that change doesn't hurt ....just the resistance to change hurts if you shift the way of interacting than the attachment to the pain of change will fall away & this can certainly be acheived on an individual basis
... by awareness
Yep... By shifting our awareness we interact and respond differently to whatever is going on. Where our attention lies determines our reality of the moment. In fact I see this as our only real power... the ability to choose where our awareness/attention goes, and our experience along with it.
We can keep our attention in the pleasure/pain continuum, or hold our attention in suffering, or in the quiet open space of being, or in love Itself, or........
Our choice... once we recognize that we have options.
Xan
Gem... All you really know is this something is not happening for you. It's a closed mind that says, "If I don't experience it, it doesn't exist." whereas a more honest response would be, "I don't know about that because I don't experience it."
Xan
I'm different about it... you make presumptions based upon you being here for divine purposes which places others in a catagory you assign. You don't realize that and I understand, but I don't fit the paradigm, so I have no interest telling people what I know particularly, and only talk, because anyone can explore their particular pains and also their means of resolution.
Gee Gem... I have no idea what you said except you seem to presume I am making presumptions about other people... ha ha
I do assume that in essence we are all the same... the same whole awareness and the same pure love, and the same ability to recognize and experience this by one means or another.
Xan
I borrowed this from Mattie's signature:
'We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.'
- Carlos Castaneda
Xan
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