View Full Version : Going Down The Rabbit Hole.
What is at the bottom of it? Isn't it that curiosity which makes all this spiritual? Some will have an answer like God or Love but then what's all this curiosity about if indeed such surety is real?
There are two distinct ways... toward God and toward inner self... and yes I also heard 'I am God' but this curiosity is peering into the dark unknown and only presenting a belief.
Why is a belief validated as 'personal truth'? I think we seek comfort in such things when actually it's a ruse, a 'personal lie'.
What really drives all us waskewy widdew wabbits to burrow is the sense of truth itself, so what value is there to the beliefs? They serve only to coddle and comfort, tempt and distract.
Now it becomes apparent nothing comforting in this thread, but if you want to tear things down, have the safety net pulled out from under you, be pushed to the boundry, teeter precariously, be pulled like gravity, feel your grip slipping, let go and fall or hold on for dear life... ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ORlQfHWrQ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.youtube.com%2525 2Fwatch%25253Fv%25253Dg-ORlQfHWrQ)
NightSpirit
24-06-2011, 06:44 AM
Ever seen the tv show "Hollow Man"? Epitamy of an evil killer and what he could do when all was stripped away. With clothes off, he had no substance, so he could stalk like a thief in the night. Clothed, he had to face the world and run like that rabbit down the hole.
We can strip away all that you speak of Gem, till there's nothing left but emptiness and silence. Beliefs are built like a house of cards. One stiff breeze...one false move....and it all comes tumbling down, just like you and I one day. Just like all of us.
So we precariously juggle our beliefs/truths throughout life. Sometimes it works out grand for us, sometimes we head for that rabbit hole...trembling and hiding away from becoming that hollow man.
So go stand on the edge...try it....you will never know whats beyond it without leaning forward and falling.
NightSpirit
24-06-2011, 06:49 AM
Reminds me of that joke.....
A man falling over a high cliff face. Grabs hold of exposed roots on the way down and dangles helplessly. He calls out for help. A voice booms out from nowhere "It is God, trust me, just let go." The man yells "Are you insane! Is there anyone else out there who can help me?"
What I think starts it is... curiosity. It's a very gentle thing really, just a little thing which probes, because even though people call it a 'personal truth' in the heart of hearts they also know it isn't true at all... it isn't 'it'... then the curiosity wants to see past this ... 'pretended truth'... we just can't help our curious nature.
Squatchit
24-06-2011, 01:26 PM
Hiya Gem
What is at the bottom of it?
A family of cute fluffy bunnies of course. :bunny::bunny::bunny::bunny::smile:
Squatch
Look at the matrix, that natural curiosity, freed you from the computer program. The same thing as actualy reading up ont he bile frees you from preconceptions....
We dont know whats at the bottom, thats why we are so curious
sound
24-06-2011, 01:39 PM
What is at the bottom of it?
More digging ... or ... an ever growing woodpile lol
"Run, rabbit run
Dig that hole, forget the sun,
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down it's time to dig another one
For long you live and high you fly
But only if you ride the tide
And balanced on the biggest wave
You race toward an early grave. "
had to post the pink floyd.....
sound
24-06-2011, 01:44 PM
had to post the pink floyd.....
Yep lol :hug3: ..............
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 01:55 PM
the rabbit hole is as deep as your imagination and as real as your ability to believe in the bizarre. there are a lot of Alices on this site.
NightSpirit
24-06-2011, 01:57 PM
ripper IQ :D
True enough.
Everyone knows 'it' is there, and also know these so called 'personal truths' are not 'it'.
Even now this 'it' is being brought to attention and 'personal truths' seem just a tiny bit weaker... but 'it' is irresistable, it is known to be and can not be denied... and the curiosity becomes a little stronger...
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:00 PM
"But I don't want to go among mad people," Alice remarked.
"Oh, you can't help that," said the Cat: "we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad."
"How do you know I'm mad?" said Alice.
"You must be," said the Cat, "or you wouldn't have come here."
sound
24-06-2011, 02:00 PM
the rabbit hole is as deep as your imagination and as real as your ability to believe in the bizarre. there are a lot of Alices on this site.
I cant help myself IQ ... i sense we have a lot to learn from each other ... or nothing lol so what character are you then ... be it that you are just as immersed in the fantasy? The Cheshire Cat perhaps? :D lol x
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u138/simplykate_2007/img392_1.jpg
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:04 PM
I cant help myself IQ ... i sense we have a lot to learn from each other ... or nothing lol so what character are you then ... be it that you are just as immersed in the fantasy? The Cheshire Cat perhaps? :D lol x
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u138/simplykate_2007/img392_1.jpg
i am all of them. firstly i'm Alice who follows her rabbit mind and falls down the hole and into the very weird world. and then i am each character i meet, each one representing some strange aspect, some truth hidden behind the nonsense.
the caterpillar says "Who are YOU?"
the rabbit hole is as deep as your imagination and as real as your ability to believe in the bizarre. there are a lot of Alices on this site.
I lived next door to her for 24 years, but forget imaginary things. Could there not be the unimaginable?
sound
24-06-2011, 02:06 PM
the caterpillar says "Who are YOU?"
Why I am you, of course silly duffer lol ....
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:10 PM
Why I am you, of course silly duffer lol ....
'Who are you?' said the Caterpillar.
This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation. Alice replied, rather shyly, 'I—I hardly know, sir, just at present— at least I know who I was when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.' :wink:
Smiler
24-06-2011, 02:11 PM
LOL I dressed as the cat at a picnic in a huge park of normally dressed folk ..my brother was Alice .. all our friends dressed up in the characters Of Alice in wonderland .. and we had a champy party ..and the boys had a stiletto race!
Us Growns Up MAD ... Yep !!! by the shocked and curious onlookers .. :)
LOL Sorry .. Had to share . ..
Gem sometimes I am curious ...sometimes I am not ..things occur ( or don't occur) regardless... .
Peace and love
:)
NightSpirit
24-06-2011, 02:12 PM
There is a place. Like no place on Earth. A land full of wonder, mystery, and danger! Some say to survive it: You need to be as mad as a hatter.
...... Which luckily I am.
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:12 PM
I lived next door to her for 24 years, but forget imaginary things. Could there not be the unimaginable?
oh sure. there are universes full of things that humans can't imagine.
sound
24-06-2011, 02:14 PM
'Who are you?' said the Caterpillar.
This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation. Alice replied, rather shyly, 'I—I hardly know, sir, just at present— at least I know who I was when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then.' :wink:
:D and the cat, reclining back on his pillar said ' Here man, have another puff on the hooker' ... for goodness sake lol :hug3:
oh sure. there are universes full of things that humans can't imagine.
Aren't you a human?
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:19 PM
i know Wonderland like that back of my hand. i can even sometimes predict when there will be a dream scenaro shift. generally, it's when the Dormouse awakens just enough to cause a Lobster Quidrille but you can't always go by that because there's the Borogove Factor to consider.
Rivendoah
24-06-2011, 02:19 PM
Well... there must be a big pink pig floating around down there... lol... at least in my rabbit hole...
which I think is the point... what we find down in the rabbit hole is for each one of us to discover... and for each of us it is different... as life continues... my personal path does not get thinner... it become more crystal clear... begins to make more sense... because it is meant for me alone... even though the path ultimately will bring us altogether, we must first walk our own individual path... or dig out own little rabbit hole.
http://dummidumbwit.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/pig_chimney.jpg
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:19 PM
Aren't you a human?
most of the time. :wink:
moke64916
24-06-2011, 02:20 PM
you say belief with personal truth. I think there is a difference between "personal truth" and "inner truth." I still pray or believe it something will come true, and I'm spiritual. I always keep a close relationship with The Source. My prayers come true by believing, and faith. But I am also Spiritual too. We are all mini versions of God. We are God. Just in physical form to gain experience. God is all knowing and I think created humans for Us to gain experience. I always try to keep a Close relationship to Self and Source.
most of the time. :wink:
I seems ironic that a person can attest to universes which are unimaginable to people.
My appearence is only imaginable to everyone on this site.
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:24 PM
if my personal truth ever surfaced from Wonderland into "normal reality most folks would think themselves suddenly insane. either that or they'd become believers in miracles.
Internal Queries
24-06-2011, 02:27 PM
I seems ironic that a person can attest to universes which are unimaginable to people.
My appearence is only imaginable to everyone on this site.
**shrug*** unimagined universes are only unimagined because the rabbit hole is infinitely deep.
if my personal truth ever surfaced from Wonderland into "normal reality most folks would think themselves suddenly insane. either that or they'd become believers in miracles.
Maybe there is no difference.
I mean consider walking to the local shop, seems commonplace enough, but really how is it that this walking to shop can be? Am I crazy to believe that's a miracle?
"One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she's ten feet tall
And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know you're going to fall
Tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call
Call Alice
When she was just small
When men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving low
Go ask Alice
I think she'll know
When logic and proportion
Have fallen sloppy dead
And the White Knight is talking backwards
And the Red Queen's "off with her head!"
Remember what the dormouse said:
"Feed your head
Feed your head
Feed your head""
Silver
24-06-2011, 10:28 PM
God, that's a great song. I don't hear 'em play it a whole lot on the radio much anymore. I can hear it now.
mattie
25-06-2011, 01:47 AM
... There are two distinct ways... toward God and toward inner self... and yes I also heard 'I am God' but this curiosity is peering into the dark unknown and only presenting a belief.
That ‘toward God’ or ‘toward inner self’ are opposing paths is a completely ➽➽➽ SUBJECTIVE BELIEF ↵↵↵, not a TRUTH. It can be a personal TRUTH, but this DOES NOT make it a FACT for anyone else.
Many don’t see these as separate at all. This need not be an either or situation. The duality of this is entirely voluntarily manufactured. It is somewhat ironic that by connecting deeply w/ self that we connect w/ what we call God (Source/Prime Creator/Universe) so it is understandable how these things could be perceived as being opposite. They aren’t. That is my & many others’ TRUTH. Others have the right to disagree, but this doesn’t impact this being a TRUTH for me.
This idea of our being EQUAL partners w/ what we call God & being fully respectful of self as just as honored of a part of the Universal ‘team’ of beings as the higher energetic beings such as angels or those in heaven (another subjective belief) is the basis of the New Spirituality, New Age beliefs, or post-organized religion spirituality. Some see this exploring of new beliefs as a fearful ‘dark unknown,’ while others find it to be a delightful discovery & exploration, finding seeing self in a loving, trusting, & honored manner to be the nourishing & satisfying.
▲▲▲ What is always so interesting is why organized religion is perturbed so much by others’ beliefs. ▲▲▲
Those who are energetically savvy in organized religion have long known that it was/is of the utmost importance to keep people from respecting self & connecting deeply within. This is why they preached the disinformation that we are inherently flawed sinners (subjective belief) for centuries. It is impossible to attain any real level of spiritual advancement if one considers one’s self as inherently flawed. They know when people make this deep spiritual connection w/ self that they are very close to REestablishing their own innate spiritual connection, & this usually leads to their walking away from organized religion as their beliefs are no longer consistent w/ having to hear continually how we are sooooo inherently flawed. READ: STOP TITHING & supporting the religious bureaucracy.
As long as organized religion stays invested in the ‘born sinner’ concept they will have this inherent problem w/ retaining members after they make this spiritual connection. Their issue to cope w/ though.
Why is a belief validated as 'personal truth'? I think we seek comfort in such things when actually it's a ruse, a 'personal lie'.
While this is phrased politely it plainly states that other who have varying beliefs aren’t competence to CHOOSE their OWN BELIEFS. That their differing belief is a ‘personal lie.’ Gobsmacking intolerance. (& they wonder who people are fleeing organized religion in droves!!! LOL)
Because some don’t agree w/ others they disrespectfully turn others’ chosen belief, their TRUTH into a ‘personal lie.’ This is the rigid intolerance that some religions sooooo openly display about varying beliefs. There is an utter unwillingness to give others the same respect that they ASSUME, yea DEMAND that is accorded to their beliefs. Therefore, others TRUTH is turned into their lie. What Brass!!! It presumes quite wrongly that others don’t have the ability to determine what is an appropriate belief for them. By saying that others’ differing beliefs are not TRUTH, but their ➨➨➨ ‘personal lie’ ↵↵↵ is calling them spiritually incompetent. This is the same autocratic drum beat organized religion has always had.
What we see as the TRUTH when discussing spiritual issues is called a ‘personal truth’ unless we are claiming the omniscience to speak for all others. This is not possible as others have varying beliefs. It can even be a group TRUTH for those who share the same beliefs, but this is still a subjective belief of a specific group. This, no matter how large the group may be or how dominate it is in the religious/spiritual make up of its region still DOES NOT make it a universal truth.
Some religions insist that their BELIEFs are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. This absolutism is theologically problematic for many reasons. It is their right to believe this if they want, but many others don’t. In areas (both eastern & western) where these absolutist autocratic religions that insist their beliefs are the ONLY TRUTH dominate, those who are in the majority religion often try to make others who have different beliefs feel as if they are being offensive when they state their beliefs. This is a routine bullying tactic, should be recognized as such, & openly discussed when this absurd tactic is employed. It worked well for centuries, but many are now not willing to buy that they should be apologetic for having differing beliefs.
Organized religions & their proponents often CLAIM that they are OK w/ others having differing beliefs, but until they acknowledge that their relIgion’s TRUTHs are actually subjective BELIEFs they are just using a time honored slippery tactic trying to distract others from their insisting that their BELIEF is the real one that should dominate.
mattie
25-06-2011, 01:52 AM
Grace Slick’s masterful iconic song,
‘One pill makes you larger
And one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you
Don't do anything at all
Go ask Alice
When she's ten feet tall
And if you go chasing rabbits
And you know you're going to fall
Tell 'em a hookah smoking caterpillar
Has given you the call
Call Alice
When she was just small
When men on the chessboard
Get up and tell you where to go
And you've just had some kind of mushroom
And your mind is moving slow
Go ask Alice
I think she'll know
When logic and proportion
Have fallen sloppy dead
And the White Knight is talking backwards
And the Red Queen's "off with her head!"
Remember what the dormouse said;
"Keep YOUR HEAD
_______________
Keep your head"
Didn't see that this had alread been posted.
mattie
25-06-2011, 01:54 AM
"One pill makes you larger
...
Just posted this too.
mattie
25-06-2011, 01:56 AM
...there are a lot of Alices on this site.
Elegantly stated.
blackraven
25-06-2011, 02:01 AM
Gem - For me, what lies at the bottom of the rabbit hole is the removal of yourself from the mainstream of society. It is the place, perhaps your home, to which you're positioned away from the neighborhoods, the city lights, the hustle and bustle and maybe even any form of life. It can be a delicate balance, the hole though as it can be a dark place as well as tranquil.
Blackraven
NightSpirit
25-06-2011, 02:15 AM
What if there's nothing at the bottom of the rabbit hole?
mattie
25-06-2011, 02:23 AM
...It can be a delicate balance, the hole though as it can be a dark place as well as tranquil. ...
It's usually only as dark as we CHOOSE to make it.
That ‘toward God’ or ‘toward inner self’ are opposing paths is a completely ➽➽➽ SUBJECTIVE BELIEF ↵↵↵, not a TRUTH. It can be a personal TRUTH, but this DOES NOT make it a FACT for anyone else.
Many don’t see these as separate at all. This need not be an either or situation. The duality of this is entirely voluntarily manufactured. It is somewhat ironic that by connecting deeply w/ self that we connect w/ what we call God (Source/Prime Creator/Universe) so it is understandable how these things could be perceived as being opposite. They aren’t. That is my & many others’ TRUTH. Others have the right to disagree, but this doesn’t impact this being a TRUTH for me.
This idea of our being EQUAL partners w/ what we call God & being fully respectful of self as just as honored of a part of the Universal ‘team’ of beings as the higher energetic beings such as angels or those in heaven (another subjective belief) is the basis of the New Spirituality, New Age beliefs, or post-organized religion spirituality. Some see this exploring of new beliefs as a fearful ‘dark unknown,’ while others find it to be a delightful discovery & exploration, finding seeing self in a loving, trusting, & honored manner to be the nourishing & satisfying.
▲▲▲ What is always so interesting is why organized religion is perturbed so much by others’ beliefs. ▲▲▲
Those who are energetically savvy in organized religion have long known that it was/is of the utmost importance to keep people from respecting self & connecting deeply within. This is why they preached the disinformation that we are inherently flawed sinners (subjective belief) for centuries. It is impossible to attain any real level of spiritual advancement if one considers one’s self as inherently flawed. They know when people make this deep spiritual connection w/ self that they are very close to REestablishing their own innate spiritual connection, & this usually leads to their walking away from organized religion as their beliefs are no longer consistent w/ having to hear continually how we are sooooo inherently flawed. READ: STOP TITHING & supporting the religious bureaucracy.
As long as organized religion stays invested in the ‘born sinner’ concept they will have this inherent problem w/ retaining members after they make this spiritual connection. Their issue to cope w/ though.
While this is phrased politely it plainly states that other who have varying beliefs aren’t competence to CHOOSE their OWN BELIEFS. That their differing belief is a ‘personal lie.’ Gobsmacking intolerance. (& they wonder who people are fleeing organized religion in droves!!! LOL)
Because some don’t agree w/ others they disrespectfully turn others’ chosen belief, their TRUTH into a ‘personal lie.’ This is the rigid intolerance that some religions sooooo openly display about varying beliefs. There is an utter unwillingness to give others the same respect that they ASSUME, yea DEMAND that is accorded to their beliefs. Therefore, others TRUTH is turned into their lie. What Brass!!! It presumes quite wrongly that others don’t have the ability to determine what is an appropriate belief for them. By saying that others’ differing beliefs are not TRUTH, but their ➨➨➨ ‘personal lie’ ↵↵↵ is calling them spiritually incompetent. This is the same autocratic drum beat organized religion has always had.
What we see as the TRUTH when discussing spiritual issues is called a ‘personal truth’ unless we are claiming the omniscience to speak for all others. This is not possible as others have varying beliefs. It can even be a group TRUTH for those who share the same beliefs, but this is still a subjective belief of a specific group. This, no matter how large the group may be or how dominate it is in the religious/spiritual make up of its region still DOES NOT make it a universal truth.
Some religions insist that their BELIEFs are the ABSOLUTE TRUTH. This absolutism is theologically problematic for many reasons. It is their right to believe this if they want, but many others don’t. In areas (both eastern & western) where these absolutist autocratic religions that insist their beliefs are the ONLY TRUTH dominate, those who are in the majority religion often try to make others who have different beliefs feel as if they are being offensive when they state their beliefs. This is a routine bullying tactic, should be recognized as such, & openly discussed when this absurd tactic is employed. It worked well for centuries, but many are now not willing to buy that they should be apologetic for having differing beliefs.
Organized religions & their proponents often CLAIM that they are OK w/ others having differing beliefs, but until they acknowledge that their relIgion’s TRUTHs are actually subjective BELIEFs they are just using a time honored slippery tactic trying to distract others from their insisting that their BELIEF is the real one that should dominate.
All it means is that all the beliefs everyone has are only devises to comfort them, and anyone who cares to examine them can find them completely unfounded.
If we were truthful we would admit to ourselves that although we are tollerant of other's beliefs, we don't respect them at all unless they conform to our own. It is true to say we respect the personhood itself beyond the belief.
The term 'personal truth' is absurd isn't it? Examine any belief, where it started, and you find these were adopted at some stage, and there is nothing that validates them at all.
All that stuff. 'Inherantly flawed' is just told to us. That's all is. So one might go on to see some faith healing or something the in retrospect go 'that proves Christ is the saviour, I am inherantly flawed, I'm judged by God etc etc etc. amen.
Just an example. Investigate any belief at all and you find one is always always looking for some way to validate it, because it can't be validated, and deep inside everyone knows that.
NightSpirit
25-06-2011, 08:47 AM
hmmm...i dont believe that Gem. I can say 'someone' loves me and know this for a fact. It doesn't need validating.
mattie
25-06-2011, 08:57 AM
All it means is that all the beliefs everyone has are only devises to comfort them, and anyone who cares to examine them can find them completely unfounded.
One can consider their own beliefs completely unfounded or “a ruse, a ‘personal lie’ if one chooses or as a device to comfort, coddle, tempt or distract them, but it is entirely presumptive to think that this is how others look at their own beliefs, formulate them, or use their beliefs. Others can have beliefs because this is simply how they see things.
If we were truthful we would admit to ourselves that although we are tollerant of other's beliefs, we don't respect them at all unless they conform to our own. It is true to say we respect the personhood itself beyond the belief.
This implies that others don’t or can’t respect beliefs that are not their own. This may be true for some, but certainly isn’t true for all. It isn’t as much respecting the person who has the belief, but respecting the RIGHT of the person to have the belief. This is the flip side of our expecting for others to grant us the RIGHT to have whatever beliefs we want.
The term 'personal truth' is absurd isn't it? Examine any belief, where it started, and you find these were adopted at some stage, and there is nothing that validates them at all.
This seems to say that a belief isn’t valid because we adopted it at some stage. This would invalidate all learning. That it is a ‘personal truth’ doesn’t mean it has to be one that birthed originally w/ us, just a belief that we consider to be the truth.
... 'Inherantly flawed' is just told to us. That's all is. ...
Our being inherently flawed is one of the cornerstones of religions that are based on our being sinners. For those who believe in these religions literally it is often a truth to them.
Just an example. Investigate any belief at all and you find one is always always looking for some way to validate it, because it can't be validated, and deep inside everyone knows that.
This is presuming that others also aren’t comfortable w/ their beliefs, always questioning them. Not necessarily the case. Being open to allowing for beliefs to change & evolve or grow is different than never considering a belief real because it can’t be validated sufficiently for our own specific criteria, but to each their own in how we process these things.
I think, id have to agree with gem.
Although, its changing, and extremely fast, but as far as I can see lots of people dont want to be told the truth. They dont want to hear it becasue 90% of the time it totaly destroys their POV. Alot of religions are just sheep herding institutions who are only doing it for power.
How do I know that? Well, look at the bible. Jesus was poor, so were all of his deciples. Theres no texts in the bible saying they went around collecting money to get their minesty up and running, nothing stating that they wanted money or any financial support ever. In my upbringing, (roman catholic), we are told that nothing to do witht he bible should be sold, anything holy or blessed should be free. They also speak of not asking for money, yet, every church uses collection plates, there are manythings for sale, and even bibles are being sold. Not to mention the catholic church is one of the richest institutions int he world. IT isnt about god anymore, its about power
This seeps into the congrigation, because the teachings are passed down from priest to priest, mandated by the vatican. The priests can only learn what the vatican teaches them about the bible, therefore they can only teach us what they know, and assume based on there teachings, which is
Follow god, or go to hell....
So we follow, and follow throughout the years, and because of those teachings, we inevitably teach others to follow.
Nowadays, things seem to be different. More and more people arent following the church. They are looking in themselves for answers, and are actualy doing some learning themselves. We are learning most of our beliefs will NEVER be validated, and that mine is just as "right" as yours. We are also putting science into our paradigm now, which is making even more of the oldschool way of thinking obselete. We are learning that there are 2 ways to see tihngs, scientificaly, and metaphoricaly (philisophicaly).
I agree tht being open to other beliefs is the best way to learn, but unfortunalty most of our traditions frown upon them. They dont let us have the freedom to pursue things as we see fit. THey make us feel guilty of even thinking about something other then itself. Not to mention monotheism cant even agree with itself, using the same damn books....
ITs as simple as figuring out we know litearly nothing... NOTHING. The worlds paradigm changes every few decades, and within a century, we barly reconise it compared to the latter. Understanding that our veiws WILL change, is the only way to keep an open mind.. Blindly following religions isnt the way
NightSpirit
25-06-2011, 11:37 AM
Most of your post Time is about religious bashing.
Understanding that our veiws WILL change, is the only way to keep an open mind..
This is the only thing i am nodding my head to. I'm grappling with how you got to christian religion from going down the rabbit hole?
Because most of us are christian, and the posts were talking abotu being open minded, whicih christianity is anything but generaly
Greenslade
25-06-2011, 11:55 AM
Now it becomes apparent nothing comforting in this thread, but if you want to tear things down, have the safety net pulled out from under you, be pushed to the boundry, teeter precariously, be pulled like gravity, feel your grip slipping, let go and fall or hold on for dear life... ...
Or simply want to walk your own Path.
Or simply want to walk your own Path.
I doesn't really matter which path in particular... there are things that apply universally to whoever walks which ever, such as awareness, sentience or being... and everything that occurs on whichever path is secondary to that.
One can consider their own beliefs completely unfounded or “a ruse, a ‘personal lie’ if one chooses or as a device to comfort, coddle, tempt or distract them, but it is entirely presumptive to think that this is how others look at their own beliefs, formulate them, or use their beliefs. Others can have beliefs because this is simply how they see things.
I know many cling to beliefs, but if people look into their past they will see their belief has changed with time and that only demonstrates how this belief that is held now will be forgone.
This implies that others don’t or can’t respect beliefs that are not their own. This may be true for some, but certainly isn’t true for all. It isn’t as much respecting the person who has the belief, but respecting the RIGHT of the person to have the belief. This is the flip side of our expecting for others to grant us the RIGHT to have whatever beliefs we want.
No questioning the right? We think very softly about mediocre things but the reality is not that. The Christian belief is not benign, it has been the justification of war, the burning of 'witches' instilling the fear of hell into young children, homophobia... the war on terror.
In the way an islamc extremist believes you must die, you infidel dog.
We wish to say we have the RIGHT, that we respect it, based on our comfortable benign scenerios... the reality says different.
This seems to say that a belief isn’t valid because we adopted it at some stage. This would invalidate all learning. That it is a ‘personal truth’ doesn’t mean it has to be one that birthed originally w/ us, just a belief that we consider to be the truth.
If it is practical like I believe if I drop this it will fall... then we learn.
Thats good because if simply might be true it's easy to drop when the proof is in the pudding. It doesn't matter then.
Our being inherently flawed is one of the cornerstones of religions that are based on our being sinners. For those who believe in these religions literally it is often a truth to them.
Others say we are perfect, ideal spiritualists mainly, so we can be inherantly flawed or perfect, doesn't matter, we are 'this way' not some other way.
This is presuming that others also aren’t comfortable w/ their beliefs, always questioning them. Not necessarily the case. Being open to allowing for beliefs to change & evolve or grow is different than never considering a belief real because it can’t be validated sufficiently for our own specific criteria, but to each their own in how we process these things.
If the belief is opening and changing then it will be very different in time, so this belief held now isn't 'truth' personal or otherwize, and it is factually inevitable that the belief will change... everything changes...
hmmm...i dont believe that Gem. I can say 'someone' loves me and know this for a fact. It doesn't need validating.
I can say there's a tree in my back yard and it doesn't have to validated, so the experience speaks for itself and if someone loves you then you're very lucky.
Greenslade
25-06-2011, 12:59 PM
I doesn't really matter which path in particular... there are things that apply universally to whoever walks which ever, such as awareness, sentience or being... and everything that occurs on whichever path is secondary to that.
Our Path is showing us one of two things, 'I Am' or I Am Not'. I Am someone who believes this, I Am Not someone who believes this :-) I Am someone who believes that when it comes to beliefs, there is no right and wrong. I Am someone who sees the diversity of beliefs, I Am Not someone who digs their heels in against all comers that don't share the same beliefs as I do. I Am on my own Path, I Am Not on someone else's. I Am Not someone who believes there is a right and wrong Path, I Am someone that believes that if I was meant to be on another Path, that's where I'd be.
Our Path is showing us one of two things, 'I Am' or I Am Not'. I Am someone who believes this, I Am Not someone who believes this :-) I Am someone who believes that when it comes to beliefs, there is no right and wrong. I Am someone who sees the diversity of beliefs, I Am Not someone who digs their heels in against all comers that don't share the same beliefs as I do. I Am on my own Path, I Am Not on someone else's. I Am Not someone who believes there is a right and wrong Path, I Am someone that believes that if I was meant to be on another Path, that's where I'd be.
Right and wrong are simply applied terms, so if you say the moon is cheeze that's wrong and if Sydney's in Australia that's right.
I am making a deliberate statement and saying your beliefs are not true, you also know that, and if they are not true what are they being used for?
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 01:12 PM
Maybe there is no difference.
I mean consider walking to the local shop, seems commonplace enough, but really how is it that this walking to shop can be? Am I crazy to believe that's a miracle?
well, if you enter the Knitting Sheep's Curiosity Shop you'll have to chase your desires from shelf to shelf and then it might disappear through the ceiling ... but that a whole nother story. you can get to Wonderland via mirrors too, ya know.
well, if you enter the Knitting Sheep's Curiosity Shop you'll have to chase your desires from shelf to shelf and then it might disappear through the ceiling ... but that a whole nother story. you can get to Wonderland via mirrors too, ya know.
Why would I give a damn about wonderland?
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 01:20 PM
Gem - For me, what lies at the bottom of the rabbit hole is the removal of yourself from the mainstream of society. It is the place, perhaps your home, to which you're positioned away from the neighborhoods, the city lights, the hustle and bustle and maybe even any form of life. It can be a delicate balance, the hole though as it can be a dark place as well as tranquil.
Blackraven
for me Wonderland is a less structured reality, a place where logic and proportion are maleable and insanity is normal. it's where the subconscious plays unfettered by solid rules, what laws there are are as changeable as the creativity of Mind. you can believe in 6 impossible things before breakfast and they'd all be real.
for me Wonderland is a less structured reality, a place where logic and proportion are maleable and insanity is normal. it's where the subconscious plays unfettered by solid rules, what laws there are are as changeable as the creativity of Mind. you can believe in 6 impossible things before breakfast and they'd all be real.
That's like seeing is believing.
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 01:22 PM
Why would I give a damn about wonderland?
gee Gem, i don't know. you're the one who started this "down the rabbit hole" thread so you tell me.
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 01:27 PM
That's like seeing is believing.
yeah? and?
i've seen some very interesting impossible phenom burble up from the subconscious to effect material surface reality. when that happens some of Us laugh, some of Us freak out and some of Us don't see it all.
i suppose if one doesn't see it at all it means one is sane.
yeah? and?
i've seen some very interesting impossible phenom burble up from the subconscious to effect material surface reality. when that happens some of Us laugh, some of Us freak out and some of Us don't see it all.
i suppose if one doesn't see it at all it means one is sane.
I just say seeing is believing and this is wonderland.
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 01:30 PM
What if there's nothing at the bottom of the rabbit hole?
if you imagine there's nothing then nothing is there. lol
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 01:35 PM
I just say seeing is believing and this is wonderland.
i agree. in many ways surface material reality is strange enough in and of itself. there is much in externalized reality that is outside my ken and in which i simply can not believe.
it's easier for me to believe in a hooka smoking blue caterpillar than it for me to believe in the human ability to be cruel. i see it but i don't believe it.
i agree. in many ways surface material reality is strange enough in and of itself. there is much in externalized reality that is outside my ken and in which i simply can not believe.
it's easier for me to believe in a hooka smoking blue caterpillar than it for me to believe in the human ability to be cruel. i see it but i don't believe it.
Cruelty is just there, in me I can feel it, and they say weird stuff like the outside is the inside... so what's there to say.
Greenslade
25-06-2011, 01:48 PM
Right and wrong are simply applied terms, so if you say the moon is cheeze that's wrong and if Sydney's in Australia that's right.
I am making a deliberate statement and saying your beliefs are not true, you also know that, and if they are not true what are they being used for?
The moon might well be made of cheese I've never been there, nor have I been to Sydney. Sydney, however, is a place I can go to - as is the moon. Kinda:-) I believe I'd enjoy myself in Sydney, being in a new place with all of that experience. The plane journey wouldn't be that much fun, being cooped up in such a small place isn't my idea of fun. But then I've had experience of that. However, I believe it'll be worth it when I get there. Until such time as I get there I don't know any better. I might hate it with a vengeance. Beliefs are being used for a substitute until such time as I have experienced it. Once I have experienced it, then it ceases to be a belief.
Squatchit
25-06-2011, 01:50 PM
it's easier for me to believe in a hooka smoking blue caterpillar than it for me to believe in the human ability to be cruel. i see it but i don't believe it.
Wow, you're one big Alice!! :D
"You'll see it when you believe it" sprang to mind as I read your post. Which is a book by Wayne Dyer. I have it on my bookshelf but have no idea what it's about. One of those new-agey books.
Anyone for tea? :smile:
http://www.victorianweb.org/art/illustration/tenniel/alice/7.1.jpg
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 02:05 PM
Anyone for tea?
move down! move down! i need a new cup!
Squatchit
25-06-2011, 02:07 PM
Hiya IQ
What is that look on Alice's face? Do you know? It sure ain't happiness. :D
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 02:11 PM
Cruelty is just there, in me I can feel it, and they say weird stuff like the outside is the inside... so what's there to say.
sure cruelty is "just there" as a residule of the lizard brain but to purposely and gleefully manifest torture is outside my ken.
this is your thread, Gem ... what IS there to say?
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 02:14 PM
Hiya IQ
What is that look on Alice's face? Do you know? It sure ain't happiness. :D
lol that expression on her face is irritation. Alice is still trying to be logical and polite while her tea partying companions find amusement in her confusion. lol
happens to me often when i go out about amongst my fellow humans. lol
NightSpirit
25-06-2011, 02:17 PM
"You'll see it when you believe it" sprang to mind as I read your post. Which is a book by Wayne Dyer. I have it on my bookshelf but have no idea what it's about. One of those new-agey books. Squatchit
So do i now that you mention it. I didn't remember having that book. Picked it up for 50c at a book sale and forgot i had it...must read it because i like dwyer. He's forward-thinking.
Silver
25-06-2011, 02:18 PM
sure cruelty is "just there" as a residule of the lizard brain but to purposely and gleefully manifest torture is outside my ken.
this is your thread, Gem ... what IS there to say?
Lotta good stuff brought by this thread.
When we feel the cruelty is 'in there', in all of us, is it from the lizard brain?
I guess it could be, fight or flight instincts, I don't know that it could be considered 'cruelty'...?
The moon might well be made of cheese I've never been there, nor have I been to Sydney. Sydney, however, is a place I can go to - as is the moon. Kinda:-) I believe I'd enjoy myself in Sydney, being in a new place with all of that experience. The plane journey wouldn't be that much fun, being cooped up in such a small place isn't my idea of fun. But then I've had experience of that. However, I believe it'll be worth it when I get there. Until such time as I get there I don't know any better. I might hate it with a vengeance. Beliefs are being used for a substitute until such time as I have experienced it. Once I have experienced it, then it ceases to be a belief.
Cute......
moke64916
25-06-2011, 02:25 PM
lol, observing all of the posts. It looks like ego mind vs ego mind. I choose to observe. Back and forth it is it is not is normal for the balance. But it is is not is not is not. Here, There, and Neither. Neither being the unmanifested self. Here, There, Neither. Past, Present, Future. Love, fear. Of it wasn't for 'Here' going 'there' and back to 'here' The universe would not be as we know it. Electrons Protons Neutrons. Here there neither. Two points. Alpha and Omega.
sure cruelty is "just there" as a residule of the lizard brain but to purposely and gleefully manifest torture is outside my ken.
this is your thread, Gem ... what IS there to say?
Oh nonsense lizard brain silliness. You say you see the cruelty in wonderland, I see it too, we also see and believe in the same measure, and I'm fully aware of what lies below the surface levels of nicety and it's easy to accept the cute bunnies in the hole but hard to accept the monsters.
Squatchit
25-06-2011, 02:28 PM
lol, observing all of the posts. It looks like ego mind vs ego mind. I choose to observe.
All hail the ego-less moke who merely observes and doesn't judge...:wink::D
:nono:
sound
25-06-2011, 02:28 PM
The moon might well be made of cheese I've never been there, nor have I been to Sydney. Sydney, however, is a place I can go to - as is the moon. Kinda:-) I believe I'd enjoy myself in Sydney, being in a new place with all of that experience. The plane journey wouldn't be that much fun, being cooped up in such a small place isn't my idea of fun. But then I've had experience of that. However, I believe it'll be worth it when I get there. Until such time as I get there I don't know any better. I might hate it with a vengeance. Beliefs are being used for a substitute until such time as I have experienced it. Once I have experienced it, then it ceases to be a belief.
There is an element of expectancy too in there Greenslade ... your expectations have propelled you to take the trip in a sense would you say? And you have actualized the trip because you believed that you could maybe?
lol, observing all of the posts. It looks like ego mind vs ego mind. I choose to observe. Back and forth it is it is not is normal for the balance. But it is is not is not is not. Here, There, and Neither. Neither being the unmanifested self. Here, There, Neither. Past, Present, Future. Love, fear. Of it wasn't for 'Here' going 'there' and back to 'here' The universe would not be as we know it. Electrons Protons Neutrons. Here there neither. Two points. Alpha and Omega.
I see it's pulling you in... that which can't be resisted ... but this the lions arena ... and still it deaws you nearer.
Squatchit
25-06-2011, 02:52 PM
but this the lions arena
I thought it was a fluffy bunny rabbits warren. :D
There is no cruelty, we made it becasue of our minds and cognitive abilities. Alot of the stuff we deem "cruel" is in fact natures working (ie:eating meat). The only cruelty is what we deem cruel.
The thing is, wonderland isnt about logic, which is why alice, in that picture, looks like shes passing a weeks worth of food. "When logic, and proportion have fallen from your head" remember?
So if were talking about anything to do with "the looking glass" or " the rabbit hole", we still have to loose all logic,even if were jsut using AIWL as an aligory. So it seems 90% of this conversation is "wrong"
moke64916
25-06-2011, 03:33 PM
All hail the ego-less moke who merely observes and doesn't judge...:wink::D
:nono:
lol.:D . Interpretations. Back to obersering. whhooooooshhhhhhh., lol.:angel8:
Squatchit
25-06-2011, 03:50 PM
Back to obersering.
Obersering? You and me both. :tongue:
Silver
25-06-2011, 03:58 PM
I'm enjoying the show, too, all you animals, lol!
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 08:33 PM
Oh nonsense lizard brain silliness. You say you see the cruelty in wonderland, I see it too, we also see and believe in the same measure, and I'm fully aware of what lies below the surface levels of nicety and it's easy to accept the cute bunnies in the hole but hard to accept the monsters.
i know something about "lizard brain silliness" having grown up in the clutches of a Jabberwock, the slow reptilian blink over a compassionless gaze as it watches you weep the tears it has invoked.
i have been the hot fury of the Queen of Heart so i can relate to rage but the cold subtle satisfaction of a psychopath is not something to which i can relate.
Silver
25-06-2011, 08:36 PM
i know something about "lizard brain silliness" having grown up in the clutches of a Jabberwock, the slow reptilian blink over a compassionless gaze as it watches you weep the tears it has invoked.
i have been the hot fury of the Queen of Heart so i can relate to rage but the cold subtle satisfaction of a psychopath is not something to which i can relate.
I've known fury, give/take, is a psychopath aware of their state of being a psychopath? Or do they have to be told?
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 09:04 PM
I've known fury, give/take, is a psychopath aware of their state of being a psychopath? Or do they have to be told?
i don't think psychopaths understand what exactly is missing in their psyches but my mother knew "something" was missing and could mimic that "something" and be quite charming and seemingly sympathetic to strangers. even if it had occurred to my sister and i to express our plight outside the house it's unlikely anyone would have believed us. my dad knew what was going on but he loved his Jabberwock so much that he was willing to sacrifice his daughters to her.
Silver
25-06-2011, 09:20 PM
i don't think psychopaths understand what exactly is missing in their psyches but my mother knew "something" was missing and could mimic that "something" and be quite charming and seemingly sympathetic to strangers. even if it had occurred to my sister and i to express our plight outside the house it's unlikely anyone would have believed us. my dad knew what was going on but he loved his Jabberwock so much that he was willing to sacrifice his daughters to her.
I'm so sorry.
Internal Queries
25-06-2011, 09:25 PM
I'm so sorry.
thanks but it's okay. nowadays i have a vorpal sword.
Silver
25-06-2011, 09:28 PM
thanks but it's okay. nowadays i have a vorpal sword.
Ha! Very good~*
Greenslade
26-06-2011, 04:51 PM
There is an element of expectancy too in there Greenslade ... your expectations have propelled you to take the trip in a sense would you say? And you have actualized the trip because you believed that you could maybe?
Not really, Sound. If you're going down the reasons road, expectancy wouldn't be one of them. Curiosity might, just to have the experience and see for myself might. I wouldn't expect to like it nor dislike it, I'd want to suck it and see :-)
I thought it was a fluffy bunny rabbits warren. :D
It is one of seeking and finding of comfort, and we elude to fantastical things which are lucid dreams and cute things which are nice, because the bottom is the very source and place from where awareness arizes... and awareness itself is not an imaginary thing is it?
Squatchit
27-06-2011, 10:34 AM
because the bottom is the very source and place from where awareness arizes... and awareness itself is not an imaginary thing is it?
If you say so. I wouldn't claim to know meself. :smile:
If you say so. I wouldn't claim to know meself. :smile:
'The rabbit hole' is just a colourful expression I stole from a movie, so people are off into alice in wonderland and other things, but that isn't what the OP indicates. The OP indicates the brittle things, comforting 'personal truths', are just fabrications, distractions, avoidance from what is not a belief and not imaginary.
We diverge into cute images and fantastical lucidity, but still distract, and others shirk from simple words like right and wrong, and pretend to respect beliefs.
'Die you westerner infidel dog'
'You'll go to hell, heathen'
'Hate blacks'
Lets stop pretending. Respect all peoples beliefs is just another personal lie.
i know something about "lizard brain silliness" having grown up in the clutches of a Jabberwock, the slow reptilian blink over a compassionless gaze as it watches you weep the tears it has invoked.
i have been the hot fury of the Queen of Heart so i can relate to rage but the cold subtle satisfaction of a psychopath is not something to which i can relate.
Life's no walk in the park, and no matter what ends of the fantastical there are, what is inside isn't avoidable, and it simply doesn't matter if it is imagined or not.
I know very cruel things, I have been cold and clinical, and I have felt hatred sear through me, I wanted to kill people, cruel mindless people, I lost my temper and hurt the innocent. I was scared and ran and let them die.
Internal Queries
27-06-2011, 12:05 PM
ya know, Gem? i just don't know what you want or expect from this thread. you use the term "rabbit hole" which leads directly to Wonderland and Wonderland is different for every Alice.
when you say "rabbit hole" folks think Wonderland and when folks think Wonderland they think Mad Tea Parties, stoned blue caterpillars and grinning cats. you want cold hard reality? then don't go to Wonderland. stay in the real frigging world and complain about it in the real world. you wanna talk about monsters without using Bandersnatches, Jabberwocks and Jub Jub Birds as symbols? fine. let's talk about Jeffry Dalmer, Susan Atkins and John Wayne Gacey then.
Gem-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ORlQfHWrQ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatc h%3Fv%3Dg-ORlQfHWrQ)
Breathe, breathe in the air.
Don't be afraid to care.
Leave but don't leave me.
Look around and choose your own ground.
Long you live and high you fly
And smiles you'll give and tears you'll cry
And all you touch and all you see
Is all your life will ever be.
Run, rabbit run.
Dig that hole, forget the sun,
And when at last the work is done
Don't sit down it's time to dig another one.
For long you live and high you fly
But only if you ride the tide
And balanced on the biggest wave
You race towards an early grave.
Pink Floyd!
Squatchit
27-06-2011, 03:19 PM
Pink Floyd!
Listening to it now. They're quite a spectacular band, wouldn't you say? :smile:
Listening to it now. They're quite a spectacular band, wouldn't you say? :smile:
Yeah buddy! Flash back to Jim Beam and other party flavors- teenage wasteland!
And still they are Great. Awesome. Ah- when music had depth! :D
7luminaries
27-06-2011, 05:29 PM
It is one of seeking and finding of comfort, and we elude to fantastical things which are lucid dreams and cute things which are nice, because the bottom is the very source and place from where awareness arizes... and awareness itself is not an imaginary thing is it?
At the bottom beneath our defenses, boxes, and psychic mines, traps and shields...is pure awareness and knowledge of self. And realisation that there is a doorway here that connects us to All.
If you make it this far, you've learned to let go, to ride the waves, to meet and greet every primal fear that comes to the table, and you've come to know your own truth. There is a strength here that fortifies us on our journey.
But equally there is a wisdom. Not all make it down to the bottom of their rabbit hole. Many get lost on the way...many forget where they are and what they are about...even who they are. We forget our humility, our place in the web of existence, our Source, and what makes us truly human.
And so there is a compassion and an understanding that most need love and support in order to make their way. We all begin as spiritual children finding their way. To leave children bereft is not only cruel...it is pernicious and damaging spiritually. At the extreme, it produces those same psychopaths that were mentioned earlier.
To fail to internalise the concept of empathy is to fail to be fully human. This is a failure of love, and it is the way we ultimately fail ourselves, our children, and one another, whether we are psychopathic or just unable to connect emotionally with others in a healthy and loving way. We need to heal ourselves and one another, so that we can all find our own way out of our rabbit holes.
We all need love and validation, and to those who may say this has no place in healing or in spiritual growth, I respectfully disagree. Validation is essential to healing the soul wherever there is a wound that involves two or more, and our wounds are not all self-inflicted.
God is in all of us. We are God in human form for one another. And God surrounds us. God is above us, within us and below us. Each of us is a divine vessel of love and healing, for ourselves and for others. I see no contradiction. God is me and we, and God is One.
And so even after we can stand on our own, we connect out of choice, out of love and joy and simply because we exist and it is our true nature to express love. Because love seeks expression. And because we understand that the journey is all about the love we give and receive. Within us, amongst us, between us and surrounding us.
Peace & blessings,
7L
ya know, Gem? i just don't know what you want or expect from this thread. you use the term "rabbit hole" which leads directly to Wonderland and Wonderland is different for every Alice.
when you say "rabbit hole" folks think Wonderland and when folks think Wonderland they think Mad Tea Parties, stoned blue caterpillars and grinning cats. you want cold hard reality? then don't go to Wonderland. stay in the real frigging world and complain about it in the real world. you wanna talk about monsters without using Bandersnatches, Jabberwocks and Jub Jub Birds as symbols? fine. let's talk about Jeffry Dalmer, Susan Atkins and John Wayne Gacey then.
I mean lets respect the Arian Nazi style of belief and live up to ideals that we respect all beliefs, and not only that, lets all validate them as 7luminaries suggests.
What is it about cold hard reality everyone wants to avoid?
At the bottom beneath our defenses, boxes, and psychic mines, traps and shields...is pure awareness and knowledge of self. And realisation that there is a doorway here that connects us to All.
If you make it this far, you've learned to let go, to ride the waves, to meet and greet every primal fear that comes to the table, and you've come to know your own truth. There is a strength here that fortifies us on our journey.
But equally there is a wisdom. Not all make it down to the bottom of their rabbit hole. Many get lost on the way...many forget where they are and what they are about...even who they are. We forget our humility, our place in the web of existence, our Source, and what makes us truly human.
And so there is a compassion and an understanding that most need love and support in order to make their way. We all begin as spiritual children finding their way. To leave children bereft is not only cruel...it is pernicious and damaging spiritually. At the extreme, it produces those same psychopaths that were mentioned earlier.
To fail to internalise the concept of empathy is to fail to be fully human. This is a failure of love, and it is the way we ultimately fail ourselves, our children, and one another, whether we are psychopathic or just unable to connect emotionally with others in a healthy and loving way. We need to heal ourselves and one another, so that we can all find our own way out of our rabbit holes.
We all need love and validation, and to those who may say this has no place in healing or in spiritual growth, I respectfully disagree. Validation is essential to healing the soul wherever there is a wound that involves two or more, and our wounds are not all self-inflicted.
God is in all of us. We are God in human form for one another. And God surrounds us. God is above us, within us and below us. Each of us is a divine vessel of love and healing, for ourselves and for others. I see no contradiction. God is me and we, and God is One.
And so even after we can stand on our own, we connect out of choice, out of love and joy and simply because we exist and it is our true nature to express love. Because love seeks expression. And because we understand that the journey is all about the love we give and receive. Within us, amongst us, between us and surrounding us.
Peace & blessings,
7L
God. The ultimate justifier of war and murder.
I think you'll find yourself rather selective in which beliefs you validate and which beliefs you don't, but you make benign scenerios consisting of what you find acceptable. You don't stretch into naziizm, terrorizm, racizm... if you did you'd find you validate beliefs alligned with your own, and have no respect for some others.
Internal Queries
28-06-2011, 04:33 AM
I mean lets respect the Arian Nazi style of belief and live up to ideals that we respect all beliefs, and not only that, lets all validate them as 7luminaries suggests.
What is it about cold hard reality everyone wants to avoid?
lol you sure zoomed in out of the blue with that. who said anything about respecting nazi ideals? i sure didn't. i was talking about Gryphons and Mock Turtles.
and what is it you want confronted about cold hard reality? okay ... it's there. there it is ... cold hard reality. it's cold. it's hard. and yep ... it's real. now what?
lol you sure zoomed in out of the blue with that. who said anything about respecting nazi ideals? i sure didn't. i was talking about Gryphons and Mock Turtles.
and what is it you want confronted about cold hard reality? okay ... it's there. there it is ... cold hard reality. it's cold. it's hard. and yep ... it's real. now what?
Oh no you didn't, no one did, I'm the only one who brings nazizm and terrorizm into it, because I'm tired of silly ideals like 'we respect all beliefs' when we don't.
Now that we can face something like cold hard reality, we find our cute bunnies are of little comfort, and fantastical escapades make little difference, and if that were all out of the way there's only our actuality, the truth about each other, and we replace the trivial with something sincere and felt.
Internal Queries
28-06-2011, 05:24 AM
Oh no you didn't, no one did, I'm the only one who brings nazizm and terrorizm into it, because I'm tired of silly ideals like 'we respect all beliefs' when we don't.
Now that we can face something like cold hard reality, we find our cute bunnies are of little comfort, and fantastical escapades make little difference, and if that were all out of the way there's only our actuality, the truth about each other, and we replace the trivial with something sincere and felt.
i don't think i could trust you with the truth about myself. you might find that i'm too cutesy bunnyish, trivial and insincere. i might not be cold and hard enough to be real to you.
you don't have to be accepting of anyOne's belief if you don't want. be as intolerant you pleases you.
NightSpirit
28-06-2011, 05:43 AM
What is it you want? I mean...what do you really want to push home here Gem? You're desperation is showing in your last 3 threads. So you talk about cruelty, wars, murder, injustices, crime, lies, cheating, untruths, inaccurate information, religions & beliefs being tripe....did I miss anything?
So there's no cute bunnies, no end to the rabbit-hole...in fact...no rabbit hole exists! Now...lets just say you get your point across to everyone here...no wait! let's go bigger!...everyone on this planet. Then what? We all walk around with long faces and bad attitudes because all we have to focus on is death and destruction? Is that what you want? Well good luck with that because regardless of the history of this planet and our attitudes, this planet will keep turning until its destroyed in some way. We will leave and be replaced by the next generation....and life will keep doing what its doing now and has been since humans stepped onto this earth.
You have gotten your point across Gem...bravo! Next thread please? :smile:
i don't think i could trust you with the truth about myself. you might find that i'm too cutesy bunnyish, trivial and insincere. i might not be cold and hard enough to be real to you.
you don't have to be accepting of anyOne's belief if you don't want. be as intolerant you pleases you.
I do tollerate beliefs, which means I put up with them, so in that respect I accept them but, We stop pretending we respect terrorist beliefs, and find our little story of 'we respect everyone's beliefs is a personal lie as opposed to a personal truth.
This applies to everyone, not only me, but I don't pretend to respect people's beliefs.
The people can be as they are and have beliefs as they will, but I can't validate their beliefs, nor reassure them they are 'personal truths'. I can only say look at the belief and see if it holds up to honest scrutiny.
What is it you want? I mean...what do you really want to push home here Gem? You're desperation is showing in your last 3 threads. So you talk about cruelty, wars, murder, injustices, crime, lies, cheating, untruths, inaccurate information, religions & beliefs being tripe....did I miss anything?
So there's no cute bunnies, no end to the rabbit-hole...in fact...no rabbit hole exists! Now...lets just say you get your point across to everyone here...no wait! let's go bigger!...everyone on this planet. Then what? We all walk around with long faces and bad attitudes because all we have to focus on is death and destruction? Is that what you want? Well good luck with that because regardless of the history of this planet and our attitudes, this planet will keep turning until its destroyed in some way. We will leave and be replaced by the next generation....and life will keep doing what its doing now and has been since humans stepped onto this earth.
You have gotten your point across Gem...bravo! Next thread please? :smile:
What didn't I say in the OP?
If you want to deal with niceties and dilly dally with cute little things there's a whole forum here which does it, and the OP is pretty clear, this is about tearing things down, examining what is clung to, and seeing it for what it is...
NightSpirit
28-06-2011, 06:09 AM
What didn't I say in the OP?
If you want to deal with niceties and dilly dally with cute little things there's a whole forum here which does it, and the OP is pretty clear, this is about tearing things down, examining what is clung to, and seeing it for what it is...
You like to twist words to suit yourself gem...its a fun game isnt it? You get a kick out of it? Not once did I say anything in my post about wanting to talk cute things, in fact I thought the content of my post is pretty clear if you care to sit with it for longer then you did.
It wouldn't matter what anyone said in your threads, you'll make sure you shred them and put them back together to find an argument for. I'm not disputing we all have free will to say what we wish here without character assassination, but it seems your never going to attempt to see anything but your own story...nice story by the way.
It's all getting a little long-winded for me....i can't be bothered pulping something to death... so cya in the next thread.
Cheers...:smile:
You like to twist words to suit yourself gem...its a fun game isnt it? You get a kick out of it? Not once did I say anything in my post about wanting to talk cute things, in fact I thought the content of my post is pretty clear if you care to sit with it for longer then you did.
It wouldn't matter what anyone said in your threads, you'll make sure you shred them and put them back together to find an argument for. I'm not disputing we all have free will to say what we wish here without character assassination, but it seems your never going to attempt to see anything but your own story...nice story by the way.
It's all getting a little long-winded for me....i can't be bothered pulping something to death... so cya in the next thread.
Cheers...:smile:
Oh you love it, I can tell.
Silver
28-06-2011, 06:15 AM
lol you sure zoomed in out of the blue with that. who said anything about respecting nazi ideals? i sure didn't. i was talking about Gryphons and Mock Turtles.
and what is it you want confronted about cold hard reality? okay ... it's there. there it is ... cold hard reality. it's cold. it's hard. and yep ... it's real. now what?
This is driving me a bit nuts too IQ. I'm quite sure we all want to get on with it, and looking to Gem to lead us to where we think he wants to go is well, a bit sticky, with nothing but wrangling about what, nobody knows or can figure. A little help?
NightSpirit
28-06-2011, 06:19 AM
Oh you love it, I can tell.
patronising b... :D :D
This is driving me a bit nuts too IQ. I'm quite sure we all want to get on with it, and looking to Gem to lead us to where we think he wants to go is well, a bit sticky, with nothing but wrangling about what, nobody knows or can figure. A little help?
The only I felt anything actually move in me was IQ's mother and father, these things are kinda close to the bone...
I just put the nazi/terrorist there to demonstrate ideal notions are what we entertain but the truth is no-one really respects everyone's beliefs.
The way we take words like right and wrong... welll the belief that a man has which then inspires him to blow up the marketplace is wrong, incorrect, fallacy, hogwash and it isn't a 'personal truth'.
So what it is, is the same for everyone, Awareness is something universal, it's just there likewize for anyone, and there isn't a discrimatory belief 'God's gonna send you to hell'... that is like a story, an imagining, a destructive fearful fantasy, but anyone can see what just happens to be a universal truth, not a fanciful belief, and by seeing that can tell the difference, and everyone KNOWS they are aware.
Silver
28-06-2011, 08:20 AM
The only I felt anything actually move in me was IQ's mother and father, these things are kinda close to the bone...
I just put the nazi/terrorist there to demonstrate ideal notions are what we entertain but the truth is no-one really respects everyone's beliefs.
The way we take words like right and wrong... welll the belief that a man has which then inspires him to blow up the marketplace is wrong, incorrect, fallacy, hogwash and it isn't a 'personal truth'.
So what it is, is the same for everyone, Awareness is something universal, it's just there likewize for anyone, and there isn't a discrimatory belief 'God's gonna send you to hell'... that is like a story, an imagining, a destructive fearful fantasy, but anyone can see what just happens to be a universal truth, not a fanciful belief, and by seeing that can tell the difference, and everyone KNOWS they are aware.
I certainly do get that, Gem. People seem to be encouraged to look away from the truth with all the promoting of PC-ism. Among other things / reasons.
Internal Queries
28-06-2011, 12:29 PM
I do tollerate beliefs, which means I put up with them, so in that respect I accept them but, We stop pretending we respect terrorist beliefs, and find our little story of 'we respect everyone's beliefs is a personal lie as opposed to a personal truth.
This applies to everyone, not only me, but I don't pretend to respect people's beliefs.
The people can be as they are and have beliefs as they will, but I can't validate their beliefs, nor reassure them they are 'personal truths'. I can only say look at the belief and see if it holds up to honest scrutiny.
i haven't seen anyOne on this message board say that they tolerate nazis and terrorists. the "tolerate other beliefs" meme is very general and a necessity on a site like this. i can relate to your irriation though, Gem. there are certain concepts that make me go "tch!" and i've expressed my annoyance. but then i realize i'm just as crazy in my own way so who am i to judge? if i find someOne's "personal truth" to be too ego driven or fanciful i try to keep my critisms to myself or word my critique is such a way as to merely suggest my opposing POV. (unless their "personal truth" entails consigning me and other nonbelievers to "hell" or some other subjugation in which case i can get a little testy.)
so generally i see no harm in folks going off into their own little universes and sometimes finding company along the way. i mean, what difference does it make if people want to go to Fairy Land or label themselves "Indigo" or chat up Angels? if such concepts help them cope with the cold hard realities of this reality **shrug** why not? it's not like if we all focus on suffering, death and mayhem instead all that nasty cruel stuff will go away.
Greenslade
28-06-2011, 12:35 PM
So while we aspire to be the epitome of all that is Enlightened, at the end of the day we can't walk away from being human.
sound
28-06-2011, 12:37 PM
So while we aspire to be the epitome of all that is Enlightened, at the end of the day we can't walk away from being human.
That in itself is enlightening Greenslade ...
Internal Queries
28-06-2011, 12:43 PM
So while we aspire to be the epitome of all that is Enlightened, at the end of the day we can't walk away from being human.
BINGO! i guess that's part of my annoyance. some of us seem to think that if they meditate enough, eat the right food or chant over the right crystals they'll become something other than, better than human.
but hey! i understand why. i stand in front of the universe as a human and feel embarrassment sometimes. i mean, we humans can be so filthy, stupid and cruel that i can relate to wanting to be something else.
i haven't seen anyOne on this message board say that they tolerate nazis and terrorists. the "tolerate other beliefs" meme is very general and a necessity on a site like this. i can relate to your irriation though, Gem. there are certain concepts that make me go "tch!" and i've expressed my annoyance. but then i realize i'm just as crazy in my own way so who am i to judge? if i find someOne's "personal truth" to be too ego driven or fanciful i try to keep my critisms to myself or word my critique is such a way as to merely suggest my opposing POV. (unless their "personal truth" entails consigning me and other nonbelievers to "hell" or some other subjugation in which case i can get a little testy.)
That's the same with me... and I dare say the same with everyone, though the tendance is loathe to admit it, because then the 'everyone has right to their belief' type ideals are not true... which is good, we can discard that untruth and be relieved.
so generally i see no harm in folks going off into their own little universes and sometimes finding company along the way. i mean, what difference does it make if people want to go to Fairy Land or label themselves "Indigo" or chat up Angels? if such concepts help them cope with the cold hard realities of this reality **shrug** why not? it's not like if we all focus on suffering, death and mayhem instead all that nasty cruel stuff will go away.
Sure, I don't mean to be morbid... I was just flouting the counter bunny, and I never intended the thread to be light hearted but meaningless... I intended each one to seriously inquire, and I expected avoidance having complete knowledge that honest inquiry can be discomforting. It almost inevitably is.
An example would be... It's difficult for me because although I entertain beliefs pertaining to self worth, I realize they are ridiculous inventions, but they do remain because of conditioned habitual thinking... like an amputee still gets an itchy limb.
I don't know much about spiritual things. I don't care if an aura is blue or red. I talk to freaky dream beings too, but that's all in the experience, and it seems everyone is different in that, so let each to their own.
I'm only examining belief... and to grow is see through them and leave them behind, if new ones are adopted then they too will be left behind, so better to just dump the thing and leave it at that.
andrew g
28-06-2011, 01:12 PM
In my opinion it is the current human way to aspire and seek. I have yet to come across any human, 'enlightened' or otherwise that is not demonstrating any kind of seeking or aspiring, though for some, it may be a very subtle and relatively peaceful and effortless kind of seeking and aspiring.
Personally, I think I do aspire and seek to some degree to become someone that no longer aspires and seeks. I have dreams of a world of joy and unconditional love and it doesnt often serve me to deny these dreams that seem to reside in my heart. Maybe one day my dreams will be realized, maybe they wont. In the meantime I will just keep on doing what I need to do to get through the day as peacefully and easily as I can amidst my aspiring and seeking.
In my opinion it is the current human way to aspire and seek. I have yet to come across any human, 'enlightened' or otherwise that is not demonstrating any kind of seeking or aspiring, though for some, it may be a very subtle and relatively peaceful and effortless kind of seeking and aspiring.
Personally, I think I do aspire and seek to some degree to become someone that no longer aspires and seeks. I have dreams of a world of joy and unconditional love and it doesnt often serve me to deny these dreams that seem to reside in my heart. Maybe one day my dreams will be realized, maybe they wont. In the meantime I will just keep on doing what I need to do to get through the day as peacefully and easily as I can amidst my aspiring and seeking.
It's a matter of curiosity isn't it?
andrew g
29-06-2011, 07:13 AM
It's a matter of curiosity isn't it?
I think curiosity can be a cool state, it can help us to approach something in an open minded way. I have read some of what you have said about meditation and I resonate very much with taking a curious approach to it. In a very basic way though, I think it is the human way currently to do things for a calculated reason which I see as a subtle form of seeking and aspiring. I might go to the grocery story with the intention of seeking out something to eat for dinner and I seem to aspire to eating dinner most nights.
I guess what Im saying is that I am continually making value judgments about stuff. I am regularly judging something to be better than something else e.g I tend to calculate and judge it better to have a wash once in a while so as not to trigger a sensory displeasure in others!
I occasionally dream of a life in which I am not continually calculating and making value judgments. For me, that would be a very very lovely life. It seems my dreams and desires in my heart are just part of the way things currently are though, and sometimes I do experience some relief from the stresses and strains of daily family life by allowing myself to dream a little dream.
I think curiosity can be a cool state, it can help us to approach something in an open minded way. I have read some of what you have said about meditation and I resonate very much with taking a curious approach to it. In a very basic way though, I think it is the human way currently to do things for a calculated reason which I see as a subtle form of seeking and aspiring. I might go to the grocery story with the intention of seeking out something to eat for dinner and I seem to aspire to eating dinner most nights.
I guess what Im saying is that I am continually making value judgments about stuff. I am regularly judging something to be better than something else e.g I tend to calculate and judge it better to have a wash once in a while so as not to trigger a sensory displeasure in others!
I occasionally dream of a life in which I am not continually calculating and making value judgments. For me, that would be a very very lovely life. It seems my dreams and desires in my heart are just part of the way things currently are though, and sometimes I do experience some relief from the stresses and strains of daily family life by allowing myself to dream a little dream.
This is about the balance isn't it, a stable disposition, a sense of equanimity, an acceptance of what is, a 'this will pass' feeling?
andrew g
29-06-2011, 07:48 AM
This is about the balance isn't it, a stable disposition, a sense of equanimity, an acceptance of what is, a 'this will pass' feeling?
Yes, thats it. I think I would judge my balance as a pretty solid B+ these days, which is better than the D- a few short years ago. Ive always been ambitious though, so Im going for the straight A. Of course, my B+ could be someone else's C!
Sharing a bit of gossip about my current situation, you might (or might not be) interested to know that me, Jenn and the kids are now living at my Mum and Dad's house. The move was triggered by my Mum and Dad's health situation which basically got to a point where the only thing appropriate for us to do was move in with them and help out. I can tell you that my balance, stability and sense of equanimity has been tested in a whole new way in the last couple of months!
Yes, thats it. I think I would judge my balance as a pretty solid B+ these days, which is better than the D- a few short years ago. Ive always been ambitious though, so Im going for the straight A. Of course, my B+ could be someone else's C!
Sharing a bit of gossip about my current situation, you might (or might not be) interested to know that me, Jenn and the kids are now living at my Mum and Dad's house. The move was triggered by my Mum and Dad's health situation which basically got to a point where the only thing appropriate for us to do was move in with them and help out. I can tell you that my balance, stability and sense of equanimity has been tested in a whole new way in the last couple of months!
Well done Andrew. It's a wonderful wonderful thing.
andrew g
29-06-2011, 08:56 AM
Well done Andrew. It's a wonderful wonderful thing.
Thanks Gem. Yes, its not been easy at times by any means, but overall it has been a wonderful thing.
Thanks Gem. Yes, its not been easy at times by any means, but overall it has been a wonderful thing.
A very difficult thing... but valuable... and I guess it is one to always be mindful of your state of equanimity... and take it from me, that's something of a gem.
7luminaries
29-06-2011, 01:45 PM
God. The ultimate justifier of war and murder.
I think you'll find yourself rather selective in which beliefs you validate and which beliefs you don't, but you make benign scenerios consisting of what you find acceptable. You don't stretch into naziizm, terrorizm, racizm... if you did you'd find you validate beliefs alligned with your own, and have no respect for some others.
Gem, in no way do I say we have to accept beliefs or actions that are dehumanising and contrary to life. Nor to justify psychopathic actions in any way.
I am only saying that in order for ppl to heal, we need to take responsibility both for ourselves and for one another. That last is tricky and many have trouble grasping it. But it is the only way forward as a race, the human race.
Ultimately no one can save another because the final choice is individual. It still doesn't alleviate our mutual responsibility toward one another. That we are all of and in God is the only reason God was mentioned.
But that if we fail to socialise (i.e. love and bond) as children, this is the result...from maladjusted adults that cannot form healthy attachments...all the way to sociopaths who display violence, lack of empathy, & remorse stemming from trauma and abuse suffered in childhood. Many can be helped through therapies and self-engagement in their healing process. Some, like sociopaths, seem broken beyond repair in this lifetime. And the fallout of course reaches far beyond any one individual to the lives of all others they touch.
Our responsibilities to ourselves and to others never really begins and never really ends. It is always there. Ours to them. Theirs to us.
Peace & blessings,
7L
sound
29-06-2011, 01:49 PM
I am only saying that in order for ppl to heal, we need to take responsibility both for ourselves and for one another. That last is tricky and many have trouble grasping it. But it is the only way forward as a race, the human race.
How can we be responsible for how others respond [to life] 7L? I understand that it serves the greater good if we show compassion and understanding toward each other but to take ownership of each others responses? Maybe i am misunderstanding ... it wouldn't be the first time lol :hug3:
seahorse
29-06-2011, 02:08 PM
Hey, very interesting conversation ! Mind if i jump in ?
"Some, like sociopaths, seem broken beyond repair in this lifetime" And then maybe there's always the next lifetime if you believe in reincarnation and maybe the Great Spirit has made sure no soul is lost in the end, providing us with the right challenges each life so in our final life on this Earth we are ready to join Spirit. I cannot imagine a God that would create its children only to abandon them because they didn't make the right decisions. I believe (and know i could be wrong of course) that God=Love and Light. And Love does not punish, Love teaches although children do not always understand what's for their benefit. Many times my children cry and think i'm punishing them when i don't buy them that chocolate or a toy, but i love them more than anything, i only don't want their teeth to go rotten or become spoiled.
So i think we should strive to judge and better ourselves first and leave it to Spirit to prepare each one's path and challenges (lessons)
As for the title of this thread....hey just imagine us knowing everything.....boring !! Where's the fun if you know the answer to all questions ?
7luminaries
29-06-2011, 02:36 PM
How can we be responsible for how others respond [to life] 7L? I understand that it serves the greater good if we show compassion and understanding toward each other but to take ownership of each others responses? Maybe i am misunderstanding ... it wouldn't be the first time lol :hug3:
Nah...LOL...rather it's easily misunderstood :smile: but I mean it in both the most direct and extensive sense.
We aren't responsible for others' responses.
But we are responsible for our own intentions, thoughts and actions toward one another.
E.g., if we are callous or cruel to another, with or without intention, it's our responsibility. We are aware of the former failing, if we're honest with ourselves. Awareness of the latter failing comes only with a heightened sense of awareness and is trickier to sort out.
The best IMO is to be fully aware and (to use the buddhist term) perform "right action" with good intention toward all. That level of awareness and purity of orientation is always a work in progress. And yet it is still a worthy and necessary goal, IMO.
If parents fail to love and bond with the child...
We may get a sociopath who has no concept of empathy or remorse.
If we fail to stop at the light...and hit someone...
we may kill them...
If we see an accident and fail to help or call...
we may have failed to intervene when a life depended on it.
The first has to do with both love and support, but so do the latter two. Though we may see it more as support, since the love is more generic and universal. In the former, the love is more personal (we hope).
But those two are what we are responsible for, toward ourselves and toward one another. Just because another is ultimately responsible for himself or herself doesn't mean we are not responsible for loving and supporting them. We still are. What they do with that is on them. Our level of love and support naturally depends on our level of engagement and connection, i.e. whether we know someone or not & interact w/them or not. But the general idea holds at all levels.
Once we've healed ourselves sufficiently to raise our heads and look around...I believe this is part of the truth we find, each in our own way.
Peace & blessings,
7L
Gem, in no way do I say we have to accept beliefs or actions that are dehumanising and contrary to life. Nor to justify psychopathic actions in any way.
I am only saying that in order for ppl to heal, we need to take responsibility both for ourselves and for one another. That last is tricky and many have trouble grasping it. But it is the only way forward as a race, the human race.
Ultimately no one can save another because the final choice is individual. It still doesn't alleviate our mutual responsibility toward one another. That we are all of and in God is the only reason God was mentioned.
But that if we fail to socialise (i.e. love and bond) as children, this is the result...from maladjusted adults that cannot form healthy attachments...all the way to sociopaths who display violence, lack of empathy, & remorse stemming from trauma and abuse suffered in childhood. Many can be helped through therapies and self-engagement in their healing process. Some, like sociopaths, seem broken beyond repair in this lifetime. And the fallout of course reaches far beyond any one individual to the lives of all others they touch.
Our responsibilities to ourselves and to others never really begins and never really ends. It is always there. Ours to them. Theirs to us.
Peace & blessings,
7L
I don't understand God, but I have noticed He is used as the centrepiece of judgement and justification, so I tend to to leave these notions to others.
It's a perpetual classification exersize... what is sociopathic and the levels of where a problem is as opposed to the level it is examined from and what level I'm on as opposed to the healer's level, but I can feel what does move and what is a static theory, so am compelled to feel movement, and I get tired of wisdoms and sayings and niceties which float on the air but can't be breathed, tasted or felt.
It's a compultion to speak from the earth while playing in the dirt.
Sentientno1
30-06-2011, 02:08 PM
i have a question......if we are all here to experience, and it's been said many times in many threads here that we are, why is the sociopath's experience less valid then the lover's?
Internal Queries
30-06-2011, 02:14 PM
i have a question......if we are all here to experience, and it's been said many times in many threads here that we are, why is the sociopath's experience less valid then the lover's?
who said a sociopath's expression isn't valid? there's certainly no denying the validity of the sociopathic expression since it is evidenced in the damage they do.
who said a sociopath's expression isn't valid? there's certainly no denying the validity of the sociopathic expression since it is evidenced in the damage they do.
What I find with me is, I can never disconnect myself from things, so if someone complains about their abusive husband I just feell how much like him I am, and when it comes to sociopathy I can only feel my coldness. My life has contained the murderous degenerated and vile, so I have such a direct and sensory tangibilty... it's touchable.
In my particular case, it's the old saying 'a man's gotta do...' and it's remarkable how little choice there is, like tsunami just overwhelms all else and life simply preserves itself if it can, but all that comes with some nasty side effects like terrible temprament, and these aren't controlable and more than nausea is controllable after two bottles of Jack Daniels.
Point is people feel the way they do and not some other way. It's not a quandry of loving that accepting that or fixing it up... it simply is that way... what can ya do?
7luminaries
30-06-2011, 03:46 PM
I don't understand God, but I have noticed He is used as the centrepiece of judgement and justification, so I tend to to leave these notions to others.
It's a perpetual classification exersize... what is sociopathic and the levels of where a problem is as opposed to the level it is examined from and what level I'm on as opposed to the healer's level, but I can feel what does move and what is a static theory, so am compelled to feel movement, and I get tired of wisdoms and sayings and niceties which float on the air but can't be breathed, tasted or felt.
It's a compultion to speak from the earth while playing in the dirt.
LOL..I'll be honest, I'm not sure I really understand what you're saying.
The sociopath is just the violent extreme of the damage that can be done when love isn't given and trust isn't formed. If love and trust are not provided consistently to us as children, it is fundamentally dehumanising and it can cause damage, sometime permanent & extreme damage. (I agree the degree to which biological tendencies play a part can be a fuzzy line.)
That's where we are all responsible for the way in which we treat one another, though we might argue that parents have a greater responsibility to their own child but the general idea is still there.
I think that saying we are all of God is just for me another way of saying it is incumbent on all of us to recognise the divine in one another, and to own that very lovely and grand and joyful reality. It is not a way of passing judgment or justifying anything in particular.
Peace & blessings,
7L
7luminaries
30-06-2011, 03:53 PM
who said a sociopath's expression isn't valid? there's certainly no denying the validity of the sociopathic expression since it is evidenced in the damage they do.
I think this is just another way of saying...if people are suffering and we want to prevent the worst...we need to take some responsiblity for what we can do...
...which is to provide love and support and yes boundaries and limits as well...
that too is necessary and loving, in proper context...and leave the rest to What Is.
Like so many things in life...consistency and continuity are key. Presence is key. Love is key.
If we give love to an adult sociopath...will it reach them? Can they control their violence? If the damage is permanent...perhaps not. Containment may be all we can do to safeguard ourselves and them.
But if we give love to the child...perhaps the sociopath never comes to be. Instead, through receiving and internalising love, compassion, and trust, they learn to form healthy attachments and join the rest of us.
Peace & blessings,
7L
Sentientno1
30-06-2011, 04:29 PM
who said a sociopath's expression isn't valid? there's certainly no denying the validity of the sociopathic expression since it is evidenced in the damage they do.
Thank you for the reply.
But here is the quandry, if all experience is for growth, and love is valid and being a sociopath is valid, and love wants to fix the sociopath isn't that interfering with the sociopath's growth? Then wouldn't the role of love be questioned as to it's effectivness in promoting growth?
This is confusing.
And don't get me wrong, if i saw someone about to harm another who was defensless i'd step in ( and probably get my a-- whupped)
What is at the bottom of it? Isn't it that curiosity which makes all this spiritual? Some will have an answer like God or Love but then what's all this curiosity about if indeed such surety is real?
NOTHING at all as maybe that Rabbit Hole has no bottom. Maybe it just keeps ever expanding as we travel down it. That need to explore to KNOW and UNDERSTAND is so early on engrained into us. WHY? At times can we not just embrace that there are things we might not need to know and let it be.
To me I do not walk the path of God but I too embrace those fully that do. I see Universal Light and that too would include what I view as an emotion LOVe. What is real and what is not real to me matters really not. What I have come to embrace is this moment I now be in, as the next might well mean I be gone.
I used to ask "WHY" to everything and WANT that answer to come to me, now I ask WHY and if there be only oppinions and not answers come to me that be fine. From that I might well have learned something new.
There are two distinct ways... toward God and toward inner self... and yes I also heard 'I am God' but this curiosity is peering into the dark unknown and only presenting a belief.
To me that be one in the same path. It is said we are of God that God is in all of us. There is nothing wrong in saying " I am God" if it is done without the I am better than ye for saying that attached. I know some that say that and they have simply found that "balance" in them where the Light and Dark are in contol. That they can say I Like WHOM I am and truly mean that. To me to exist we need the path of Light and the path of Dark.
Why is a belief validated as 'personal truth'? I think we seek comfort in such things when actually it's a ruse, a 'personal lie'.
I dont know that we can have a pure personal truth, as we are so inter connected to the other. We are all of DNA that links us to be man. YET we so fight to be individuals. What I accept in personal life is that I GIVE back of me time and of me and I have really worked hard to LISTEN and not put forth too much of "ME" in reply. I put forth the many levels that we all are. At times messages from Spirits or Guides at times words from me. We are many a source of information yet most do not open to be that.
What really drives all us waskewy widdew wabbits to burrow is the sense of truth itself, so what value is there to the beliefs? They serve only to coddle and comfort, tempt and distract.
To burrow in gives us that security we might well have felt when still in our Mother's yet too we at the time of birth fight to be free. We do need to have some walls around us to protect us but we can have peep holes in that wall to explore and expand from.
Now it becomes apparent nothing comforting in this thread, but if you want to tear things down, have the safety net pulled out from under you, be pushed to the boundry, teeter precariously, be pulled like gravity, feel your grip slipping, let go and fall or hold on for dear life... ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ORlQfHWrQ
I have learned that for some it might simply be that Soul's path to struggle along and never find a step in life. To live life at times with NO safety net, and that is simply their path. The thought ye can lead a horse to water but ye can not make it drink, is one I have leanred to embrace. That I can NOT always be there for one's . That is ok to step away at times as I know that I was there and still am there if needed. Doors may close but are never locked.
To hold on for dear life is a personal choice we all make at times if one goes in circumstances other's do not embrace maybe we need to see that was truly thier path or they would not have gone.
We are all one and we all have the RIGHT to an oppinion and if it be presented in a stronger way than how other's might well put it forth so be it really. Does not mean that we are without a heart it might well mean simply we have SEEN more in life than another has. That one might have been down a darker road and knows full well its not all LOVe and Light along the path. Its all good even on the Spiritual level to have a harder edge is not a bad thing. It makes one honestly human.
Lynn
Internal Queries
30-06-2011, 04:40 PM
Thank you for the reply.
But here is the quandry, if all experience is for growth, and love is valid and being a sociopath is valid, and love wants to fix the sociopath isn't that interfering with the sociopath's growth? Then wouldn't the role of love be questioned as to it's effectivness in promoting growth?
This is confusing.
And don't get me wrong, if i saw someone about to harm another who was defensless i'd step in ( and probably get my a-- whupped)
hmmm i don't believe love has any effects on a sociopath but all i can do is intellectualize because i'm not a sociopath. the way such people think and feel is outside of my ken.
indoorFlakes
04-07-2011, 03:23 PM
rabbit hole huh.... interesting....
moke64916
04-07-2011, 04:20 PM
Why is a belief validated as 'personal truth'?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ORlQfHWrQ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.youtube.com%2525 2Fwatch%25253Fv%25253Dg-ORlQfHWrQ)
I do not think belief is personal truth. It think through experience we when we see personal truth. One can belief and call it truth because belief is powerful. Belief is very powerful in my opinion. I think personal truth comes from experience. Or thinking on a level beyond normal thought. Just All Knowing. You know it's true. It is experience.
moke64916
04-07-2011, 04:27 PM
hmmm i don't believe love has any effects on a sociopath but all i can do is intellectualize because i'm not a sociopath. the way such people think and feel is outside of my ken.
In martial arts I learned to know the enemy, to be the enemy and think like him. Anticipating his next action. You know what he will do. Great defense and attack mechanism. I would think a sociopath would not experience love, but know that they could use love to manipulate people. In other words they could know how people work and manipulate people for their own personal gain. They don't care about anyone but themselves. Life would suck without feelings such as love. I think a sociopath is all driven by ego and is extremely selfish. Highly manipulative, and liars. But they would lie and believe their own lies so deeply that it would be hard to tell if they are lying when you look into their eyes.
I study human psychology, and human behavior. That's what I would think a sociopath would be like.
Neville
04-07-2011, 04:48 PM
What is at the bottom of it? Isn't it that curiosity which makes all this spiritual? Some will have an answer like God or Love but then what's all this curiosity about if indeed such surety is real?
There are two distinct ways... toward God and toward inner self... and yes I also heard 'I am God' but this curiosity is peering into the dark unknown and only presenting a belief.
Why is a belief validated as 'personal truth'? I think we seek comfort in such things when actually it's a ruse, a 'personal lie'.
What really drives all us waskewy widdew wabbits to burrow is the sense of truth itself, so what value is there to the beliefs? They serve only to coddle and comfort, tempt and distract.
Now it becomes apparent nothing comforting in this thread, but if you want to tear things down, have the safety net pulled out from under you, be pushed to the boundry, teeter precariously, be pulled like gravity, feel your grip slipping, let go and fall or hold on for dear life... ...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-ORlQfHWrQ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.youtube.com%2525252 Fwatch%2525253Fv%2525253Dg-ORlQfHWrQ)
I wonder if it's instinctual, that we seek because that's what we are pre programmed to do as the eyes through which Creation see's etc...As I have often remarked, perhaps the importance lies in the journey and not the destination.:smile:
moke64916
04-07-2011, 04:56 PM
I wonder if it's instinctual, that we seek because that's what we are pre programmed to do as the eyes through which Creation see's etc...As I have often remarked, perhaps the importance lies in the journey and not the destination.:smile:
Exactly. The Now.
I wonder if it's instinctual, that we seek because that's what we are pre programmed to do as the eyes through which Creation see's etc...As I have often remarked, perhaps the importance lies in the journey and not the destination.:smile:
Maybe. There's always a new horizon.
All I'm saying is... this is about taking a belief and examining it, and finding it to be untrue.
Internal Queries
05-07-2011, 02:54 AM
Maybe. There's always a new horizon.
All I'm saying is... this is about taking a belief and examining it, and finding it to be untrue.
hmmm i've had my share of delusions but i haven't yet discounted some theories the delusions were based on. i mean, just because i haven't gotten the psy "chemical" elements measured and mixed right yet doesn't mean the theory isn't workable. some tweaking for accuracy might focus the perception. the concept might then be viewed true.
in any case, even when i discard certain theories they reform in a different configuration and come back at me again for examination. like something is saying "real enough yet?".
hmmm i've had my share of delusions but i haven't yet discounted some theories the delusions were based on. i mean, just because i haven't gotten the psy "chemical" elements measured and mixed right yet doesn't mean the theory isn't workable. some tweaking for accuracy might focus the perception. the concept might then be viewed true.
in any case, even when i discard certain theories they reform in a different configuration and come back at me again for examination. like something is saying "real enough yet?".
Sure... if it works it's 'true enough'... but we don't really care. It doesn't effect anything personally... so it's more the 'personal truth' (which is actually an assumption).
Today I walked through the wooda then bought a few books at a nearby suburb... that's something I know, the retrospective experience, but that doesn't imply anything, so there nothing to assume.
mattie
05-07-2011, 07:24 AM
I know many cling to beliefs, but if people look into their past they will see their belief has changed with time and that only demonstrates how this belief that is held now will be forgone.
...
If the belief is opening and changing then it will be very different in time, so this belief held now isn't 'truth' personal or otherwize, and it is factually inevitable that the belief will change... everything changes...
That some have strong beliefs doesn't mean that they do because they 'cling' to them in a persistent or needy manner. This presumes why others have beliefs & this would take a considerable degree of omniscience. Many have beliefs because this is simply how they see things organized.
That one has the flexibility to allow that their beliefs will naturally change as they expand their awareness does not mean that their current belief is invalid as it is subject to change or not the truth for them at that point in time.
One can have this view about how they process information personally, that their belief is never really real as it can't really be proven or it might change, but they can't insist that this is how others process information. This might apply to some, but just as easily WILL NOT apply to others.
Others say we are perfect, ideal spiritualists mainly, so we can be inherantly flawed or perfect, doesn't matter, we are 'this way' not some other way.
That we aren’t inherently flawed sinners is considerably different than saying we are perfect. Being inherently flawed or perfect are 2 quite polarized extremes.
It actually does matter quite a bit if we consider self to be inherently flawed as this is the cornerstone for a mindset of disrespect for self.
That some have strong beliefs doesn't mean that they do because they 'cling' to them in a persistent or needy manner. This presumes why others have beliefs & this would take a considerable degree of omniscience. Many have beliefs because this is simply how they see things organized.
If it can be seen that a belief is actually not true, what purpose is actually served by that belief?
That one has the flexibility to allow that their beliefs will naturally change as they expand their awareness does not mean that their current belief is invalid as it is subject to change or not the truth for them at that point in time.
I just indicated that what was believed in the past has been changed to this belief now and this belief now will also go... so why not just leave it behind a instead of replacing it with something else which will also be replaced...
One can have this view about how they process information personally, that their belief is never really real as it can't really be proven or it might change, but they can't insist that this is how others process information. This might apply to some, but just as easily WILL NOT apply to others.
Some things are universally applicable, and everything changes.
That we aren’t inherently flawed sinners is considerably different than saying we are perfect. Being inherently flawed or perfect are 2 quite polarized extremes.
It actually does matter quite a bit if we consider self to be inherently flawed as this is the cornerstone for a mindset of disrespect for self.
So it's an idiotic belief to say we are inherantly flawed, and it's just as silly to say we are perfect... these are secondary assumptions... actually we are just like this and that's it.
I't psycoslice's fault. I read his 'your space' and that absolutely compelled me to revive this thread, which serves one basic purpose, the examination of belief, the revelation that what is called 'personal truth' is a vain attempt to validate beliefs.
Beliefs can just disappear and everything will just be same. Ants will still eat crumbs, birds will still fly, flowers will still bloom in spring, stars will shine... so there is no problem with abandoning a belief, and really to be most honest with inquiry:
'What is the real purpose this belief serves?'
Neville
07-07-2011, 11:54 AM
I confuse easy:smile:
the revelation that what is called 'personal truth' is a vain attempt to validate beliefs.
there is no problem with abandoning a belief, and really to be most honest with inquiry:
'What is the real purpose this belief serves?
Hello Gem,
yes and yes to both however to me a belief is merely a marker on the journey a sign post. It let's you know where you are and often where you have been in order to get to here .
The journey is the thing(as I tried to imply in my last post ).And the desire to discover is the instinct. It should be that your personal truth is arrived at as a result of what you believe and not as you have said in the first quote above.
Can you believe in nothing ? because if not , you must surely believe in something And what you believe in defines you in so very many ways at that particular point that the belief is in effect , I believe that your beliefs are essential,
Oh and just to be in keeping with my uber obvious manner;
If a person were to believe that belief's lacked in some way credence or necessity surely they would have no room to talk because they would be espousing one of their beliefs in expressing such a thing.:confused:
Your beliefs are formed by your experience and discernment which are essential in both your development and preservation.
At least that's what I believe anyway:smile:
I confuse easy:smile:
Hello Gem,
yes and yes to both however to me a belief is merely a marker on the journey a sign post. It let's you know where you are and often where you have been in order to get to here .
The journey is the thing(as I tried to imply in my last post ).And the desire to discover is the instinct. It should be that your personal truth is arrived at as a result of what you believe and not as you have said in the first quote above.
The journey is the experience where seeing is believing, but then there is the conditioning, the assumptions, the religions, nationalizm, sense of worth, judgements... and other outright **.
Can you believe in nothing ? because if not , you must surely believe in something And what you believe in defines you in so very many ways at that particular point that the belief is in effect , I believe that your beliefs are essential,
Oh and just to be in keeping with my uber obvious manner;
If a person were to believe that belief's lacked in some way credence or necessity surely they would have no room to talk because they would be espousing one of their beliefs in expressing such a thing.:confused:
Your beliefs are formed by your experience and discernment which are essential in both your development and preservation.
At least that's what I believe anyway:smile:
Not essential, but one can't help believing what he does, especially where hell is the consequence of abandoning them, but in truth these are all stories, stories about myself, stories about Jesus, stories about hell, about the enemy, about my worth.
People are on a journey and will believe as thay do, and that journey leads them here to read this, so I am compelled to ask. Is the story true?
Internal Queries
07-07-2011, 12:44 PM
mental movies are cool. some have excellent plots, convincing scripts and great special effects but like all movies they come to an end. the suspended disbelief collaspes with "The End" and the credits role (written, produced, directed and the entire cast "Me".), the house lights go up and kicking aside the candy wrappers and pop corn containers that litter the theater floor you walk out into the real world to dodge parking lot traffic to get to your car.
Neville
07-07-2011, 01:03 PM
Now I do agree that some of the religious dogma is nonsense(to me personally), We may be at cross understandings. I am a dyed in the wool, bog standard pagan. I believe that the Sun maintains life as much as rain and the Moon. I believe Trees are sentient . I think Crystals and Rocks contain energy.I hear voices on the wind, see majesty in the tides etc etc .
So If I say to you that I believe falling from a cliff may kill me. it is a belief and not a fact, I may in fact be severly injured.
If I say to you .I will not be allowed in to heaven because I am an un believer , then that too would be only a belief.(One I don't subscribe too)
You contain within you the wisdom of the ages, Genetic Memories that go back beyond human memory, your story and everyone elses story is absolutely true despite the disparity of perspectives , which incidentally is understandable as every story is therefore individual. There is and have always been possibilities.
miss.hawaiki
07-07-2011, 01:08 PM
In my opinion,
We were created by GOD/SOURCE/THE UNIVERSE or whatever name you would like to attach to it, there for we are EXTENSIONS of GOD. I believe that GOD is forever expanding, growing, changing, updating, learning, perfecting and us being the EXTENSIONS of GOD and our reason for always wanting to learn and move forward and that thing inside us that drives us which we call curiosity which leads us to events and situations which have outcomes, lessons and results is what our truth is as we are EXTENSION CREATIONS OF GOD which is why we can never be destroyed, contributing and making sure that the UNIVERSE is forever expanding so therefore the rabbit hole never ends. Why would you want it to end? Why would you want there to be a bottom of the rabbit hole so to speak? If there were, what would then be the point? :D
Neville
07-07-2011, 01:14 PM
mental movies are cool. some have excellent plots, convincing scripts and great special effects but like all movies they come to an end. the suspended disbelief collaspes with "The End" and the credits role (written, produced, directed and the entire cast "Me".), the house lights go up and kicking aside the candy wrappers and pop corn containers that litter the theater floor you walk out into the real world to dodge parking lot traffic to get to your car.
the movies/stories are a part of many stories , a whole saga of movies bigger than the Harry Potter Series of Movies so when one ends you are casted immediately into the sequel , next film in the series....It's never over.:smile:
Internal Queries
07-07-2011, 01:23 PM
the movies/stories are a part of many stories , a whole saga of movies bigger than the Harry Potter Series of Movies so when one ends you are casted immediately into the sequel , next film in the series....It's never over.:smile:
yeah but sequels tend to get more and more lame and less believable. and then we get into "prequels" lol. so yeah, you can keep playing one role or another forever.
i suppose once i retire from the Self entertainment innerdustry i will be "enlightened".
Neville
07-07-2011, 01:25 PM
In my opinion,
We were created by GOD/SOURCE/THE UNIVERSE or whatever name you would like to attach to it, there for we are EXTENSIONS of GOD. I believe that GOD is forever expanding, growing, changing, updating, learning, perfecting and us being the EXTENSIONS of GOD and our reason for always wanting to learn and move forward and that thing inside us that drives us which we call curiosity which leads us to events and situations which have outcomes, lessons and results is what our truth is as we are EXTENSION CREATIONS OF GOD which is why we can never be destroyed, contributing and making sure that the UNIVERSE is forever expanding so therefore the rabbit hole never ends. Why would you want it to end? Why would you want there to be a bottom of the rabbit hole so to speak? If there were, what would then be the point? :D
Hello miss.hawaiki,
Indeed we are creation in action, manifestations of creation:smile: From source , of source and source in our make up. We see it around us. The Solar sytem spins around the edge of the Milky Way, The Planets of the Solar System spin around our Sun, Our Moon spins around the earth. Our Live's revolve around us. We as individuals are the central point of our personal existence.
We see Stars go Nova, Stars getting born in the Night sky, We see Trees shed leaves and grow dormant and then spring back to life. We create and destroy as individuals from planting a garden to changing career or moving home.
We are in it, a part of it and indeed it:smile: Nice to meet you by the way.
Neville
07-07-2011, 01:29 PM
IQ,
When you get enlightened can you drop me a line so I know what it's like because I have no idea and I don't think I ever have, what exactly enlightened is .
In my series of Movies I seem ultimately to have nothing more than a walk on walk off part. The Main Character seems to be the Movie Set itself as opposed to any of the players:smile:
Internal Queries
07-07-2011, 01:38 PM
IQ,
When you get enlightened can you drop me a line so I know what it's like because I have no idea and I don't think I ever have, what exactly enlightened is .
lol okay. will do. i'll insert my "enlightened" thought into your movie script somehow. you'll probably imagine it's you but then that would true so it'll work without screwing up your plot.
In my series of Movies I seem ultimately to have nothing more than a walk on walk off part. The Main Character seems to be the Movie Set itself as opposed to any of the players:smile:
my mental movies usually entail the adventures of human archetypes of which i am all of them, though i'll asign different self aspect different roles. the movies are often sweeping sagas that span the history of human experience, from the cave dwellers awakening to self awareness to the 2012 new age seekers of truth and then even into sci fi futures. the space ships land and the human species is saved! hoorah! lol
That's when you speak of things that are true, because there is no denial that experience occurs... it can be thought of as a movie, which is a series of photographs really, but then the belief in free will is not permissable, for it's already contained in the spool.
Boil away all the liquid to see what's in it. The solid bits which are left.
Internal Queries
08-07-2011, 01:53 AM
That's when you speak of things that are true, because there is no denial that experience occurs... it can be thought of as a movie, which is a series of photographs really, but then the belief in free will is not permissable, for it's already contained in the spool.
Boil away all the liquid to see what's in it. The solid bits which are left.
:director2: of course there is no free will for the actors in the movie. they're scripted archetypes and will act as their characters are scripted to act. they can't behave any differently than their casted personality traits dictate or the plot wouldn't ring true and disbelief couldn't be suspended long enough to creat a reality.
it's all make believe. if you can be made to believe it then it's real ... at least in the moment.
pass the popcorn, please. :happy1:
:director2: of course there is no free will for the actors in the movie. they're scripted archetypes and will act as their characters are scripted to act. they can't behave any differently than their casted personality traits dictate or the plot wouldn't ring true and disbelief couldn't be suspended long enough to creat a reality.
it's all make believe. if you can be made to believe it then it's real ... at least in the moment.
pass the popcorn, please. :happy1:
The movie story is a fable about life innit. Life isn't really like movie at all, though a movie is an imitation of life, you watch it and recount the story of events, so the things experienced only occur in memory, so are actually not factual, but are after the fact,
Internal Queries
08-07-2011, 03:37 AM
The movie story is a fable about life innit. Life isn't really like movie at all, though a movie is an imitation of life, you watch it and recount the story of events, so the things experienced only occur in memory, so are actually not factual, but are after the fact,
well, i guess my mental sagas might be upwellings from the collective unconscious, elemental instincts personafied, ancestral memories encoded in my DNA with some imaginative embellishments added for drama. some folks might even believe such inner movies to be memories of their specific "past lives". for me the movies are emotion driven symbols of the human experience playing out on the big screen of my mind. i only relate to the characters and take the scenarios personally for as long as the movie lasts. then whatever revelation the movie may have offered becomes impersonalized and filed away by my intellect for future referrences.
not human
08-07-2011, 03:44 AM
[QUOTE=Gem]What is at the bottom of it?
Decomposing vegetation & bunny poo, possibly an unexplored alternate source of fossill fuel
Is reason subjected to human intellect, or is human intellect subjected to reason... perhaps both.
I concluded that as a general rule the principle that all things which we very clearly and obviously conceive are true, only observing, however, that there is some difficulty in rightly determining the objects which we distinctly conceive.
... but is reason the only componant of the thought process? What of the belief and faith of a learned certainty that becomes the reality of your own existence... that enslaves your mind and blinds your eyes and breaks the spirit of your true soul... because of a concept you were made to accept as true?
Shouldn't we comprehend comprehension before accepting any belief or faith, thus our own certainty? ~ Rene Descartes
andrew g
08-07-2011, 08:56 AM
Ive been reading a bunch of books lately and one little thing that really grabbed me was in a Deepak Chopra book. He was talking about perception and pointed out that the reason we see a marble as round is because of the shape of our iris. If we had a square iris we would see the marble as a pencil shape. Which begs the question.....what is the 'real' shape of the marble?
What this suggests to me (again, based on what Deepak said) is that there has been some kind of agreement on some level that humans experience a marble as round. In this sense, we could say that all of what is experienced boils down to a collective consciousness agreement. One of the implications of this is that ageing, pain, ill health and death are not actually inevitable because the experience of these things has been collectively agreed and can therefore change. As we come to understand further that we each have co-creative power within, we will become more conscious in our creating.
After I read the marble thing, I spent the next 15 minutes looking around at 'things' and acknowledging that just because I see them a certain way doesnt mean that they 'are' that way....its just how I experience them. It brought up a laughter from my belly....we live in a wibbly wobbly world! The book/movie 'Fear and loathing in Las Vegas' sprang to mind.
Neville
08-07-2011, 10:58 AM
It seem's that a personal decision has to be made.
Is this life real or is it an illusion ? All of my perceptions and beliefs are formed by my perspective and in some case conditioning.
perspectives alter, some will identify the colour maroon as burgundy, dark red or claret...The colour remains the same. your name for it is a personal choice.
So as Internal Queries so very succinctly and yet perfectly descriptively put it.
it's all make believe. if you can be made to believe it then it's real ... at least in the moment.
Or come to believe it then for you it is real.
So what would we or should we do? disregard all our beliefs or embrace them in the full knowledge that a belief may not and probably will not be a shared belief.
I once saw Santa Clause as a Child, He was real enough to me back then. Today I figure I actually saw a seasonal department store employee. The point is..He was santa to me at the time.
go figure :smile:
Internal Queries
08-07-2011, 11:38 AM
Is reason subjected to human intellect, or is human intellect subjected to reason... perhaps both.
lol when you're down the rabbit hole reason isn't exactly reasonable and the intellect is confounded.
I concluded that as a general rule the principle that all things which we very clearly and obviously conceive are true, only observing, however, that there is some difficulty in rightly determining the objects which we distinctly conceive.
we're all mad here.
... but is reason the only componant of the thought process? What of the belief and faith of a learned certainty that becomes the reality of your own existence... that enslaves your mind and blinds your eyes and breaks the spirit of your true soul... because of a concept you were made to accept as true?
Shouldn't we comprehend comprehension before accepting any belief or faith, thus our own certainty? ~ Rene Descartes
i very few beliefs in which i have faith but one that i continue to hold true is that the soul can not not be broken, soiled, sullied or otherwise changed, that the Soul is or arises from pure undifferentiated energy, immutable. however, "spirit" might be conceived as the personifying or symbolizing of the Soul so manifests in infinite variety, always changing and seeking new means and ways of expression. spirit doesn't expect to last forever. spirit understands "death".
7luminaries
08-07-2011, 02:54 PM
Now I do agree that some of the religious dogma is nonsense(to me personally), We may be at cross understandings. I am a dyed in the wool, bog standard pagan. I believe that the Sun maintains life as much as rain and the Moon. I believe Trees are sentient . I think Crystals and Rocks contain energy.I hear voices on the wind, see majesty in the tides etc etc .
So If I say to you that I believe falling from a cliff may kill me. it is a belief and not a fact, I may in fact be severly injured.
If I say to you .I will not be allowed in to heaven because I am an un believer , then that too would be only a belief.(One I don't subscribe too)
You contain within you the wisdom of the ages, Genetic Memories that go back beyond human memory, your story and everyone elses story is absolutely true despite the disparity of perspectives , which incidentally is understandable as every story is therefore individual. There is and have always been possibilities.
I like this very much.
I believe in the ultimate unity of All. I believe that "Everything is God" (it's a book title of an amazing book) and I see divinity in everything.
I think there is probably no core difference in what you and I believe about the essence and sanctity of life and consciousness...except the labels we or others use to call ourselves.
Peace & blessings,
7L
i very few beliefs in which i have faith but one that i continue to hold true is that the soul can not not be broken, soiled, sullied or otherwise changed, that the Soul is or arises from pure undifferentiated energy, immutable. however, "spirit" might be conceived as the personifying or symbolizing of the Soul so manifests in infinite variety, always changing and seeking new means and ways of expression. spirit doesn't expect to last forever. spirit understands "death".
The distinctions which are made can only be made on the individual level, as distinction itself seperates two comparables, each having sight ... so sight itself, awareness, remains a universal function, and to touch the place where awareness arizes...
moke64916
09-07-2011, 11:46 AM
Is reason subjected to human intellect, or is human intellect subjected to reason... perhaps both.
I concluded that as a general rule the principle that all things which we very clearly and obviously conceive are true, only observing, however, that there is some difficulty in rightly determining the objects which we distinctly conceive.
... but is reason the only componant of the thought process? What of the belief and faith of a learned certainty that becomes the reality of your own existence... that enslaves your mind and blinds your eyes and breaks the spirit of your true soul... because of a concept you were made to accept as true?
Shouldn't we comprehend comprehension before accepting any belief or faith, thus our own certainty? ~ Rene Descartes
Belief and Faith I think can bring you into Being. I watch Joel Osteen on TV. He is the most joyful, crys out of joy. You just see his eyes glistening with joy. He is in peace during down periods, because he knows he will propel even further once it has passed. He has found a different way of Being, by giving it to God. I guess belief and faith can really bring a person into Being.
Belief and Faith I think can bring you into Being. I watch Joel Osteen on TV. He is the most joyful, crys out of joy. You just see his eyes glistening with joy. He is in peace during down periods, because he knows he will propel even further once it has passed. He has found a different way of Being, by giving it to God. I guess belief and faith can really bring a person into Being.
Maybe, though belief and faith are not benign... we just entertain ideals... but in the world, people kill each other in the name of God.
I lived next door to her for 24 years, but forget imaginary things. Could there not be the unimaginable?
But when Alice moved away...Sally was there...;o)
http://www.thesecondadvent.com
Originally Posted by moke64916
"Belief and Faith I think can bring you into Being. I watch Joel Osteen on TV. He is the most joyful, crys out of joy. You just see his eyes glistening with joy. He is in peace during down periods, because he knows he will propel even further once it has passed. He has found a different way of Being, by giving it to God. I guess belief and faith can really bring a person into Being."
That glistening in his eyes is madness; the peace during his down periods is exhaustion...being mad is demanding.
I ran out of time to finish reading the entire thread (stopped at page 9), so I may be off track by now; but, I think I understand what Gem was talking about at the beginning.
We all have these ideals to live and let live, believe and accept what other's believe. There are however, beliefs that harm others and we should not be tolerant of these. Nazism and terrorism are good examples, there are many more.
I try to avoid quoting the Bible, especially when it comes to something that Jesus said (assuming that he actually lived and that whoever wrote down the quote got it right), and paraphrasing that quote, "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." There are times when a sword is necessary and action taken to stop the "beliefs" of tyrants, psychopaths, et al, that are causing harm to others.
http://thesecondadvent.com
I ran out of time to finish reading the entire thread (stopped at page 9), so I may be off track by now; but, I think I understand what Gem was talking about at the beginning.
We all have these ideals to live and let live, believe and accept what other's believe. There are however, beliefs that harm others and we should not be tolerant of these. Nazism and terrorism are good examples, there are many more.
I try to avoid quoting the Bible, especially when it comes to something that Jesus said (assuming that he actually lived and that whoever wrote down the quote got it right), and paraphrasing that quote, "I have not come to bring peace, but a sword." There are times when a sword is necessary and action taken to stop the "beliefs" of tyrants, psychopaths, et al, that are causing harm to others.
http://thesecondadvent.com (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fthe secondadvent.com)
Yay! I hear the voice of reason which barefecedly admits we don't really respect all beliefs... and indeed it is true expousing some beliefs would resut in the immediate banning from these forums...
What if I were to come here and begin to expouse my racist beliefs? Certainly I would be banned ...
...so why do we insist that 'we respect the belief of others' when the truth is we respect beliefs which are most closely alligned with our own.
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