View Full Version : The Thought of You
The general consensus seems to indicate two beings. The thing you think you are and the actual 'true self'.
Belief is ever a powerful thing so what you really believe you are is exactly what you are, which relates directly to issues of self esteem, so there is no diminishing or belittlement of that.
Seeing Ego as flacid false insignificant troublesome thing may well be inductive of self hatred, as ego is only what you think you are.
Wonderful love and acceptance of all egoic persona traits is much better than trying to kill a sordid hated monsterous thing... Maybe.
It's sometimes much more about the expansion of the possibilty of that ego, what you could possibly be and that entails accepting what are current limitations and pushing the boundries, exceeding them.
Perhaps what you are, is only confined by what you think you are, the ego, and to be a wonderful person one would expand that thought of you into endless possibility... could be anything one wants.
Or maybe just tear the thing right down and stop feeding it so it dies... I don't know.
Prokopton
19-06-2011, 01:18 PM
I totally agree the 'sordid monstrous thing' idea is tosh... the idea that anything about oneself is sordid or monstrous is in itself the function of a faulty self-concept.
('Self-Concept' is one term in transpersonal psychology for 'the thing you think you are'.)
How to deal with it, either conceptually or practically? It is a big subject and I will summarize a lot more on my blog one day...
Two nice keys for example, in my experience:
Number one, most people construct a self-concept (and world-concept, and a concept of others) that they then have to maintain, otherwise they or the world become in some way 'unacceptable'. (This is usually for a somewhat 'self-aggrandizing' reason, to compensate for vulnerability etc.) Coming to accept what seems unacceptable in life and in oneself -- which from the mythic or Jungian perpective is accepting the Shadow or Death -- can heal the self-concept of its distortions.
Number two is that the Light of the higher Mind itself is a obviously a rather different thing from the self-concept -- and the self-concept, if it admits this, can obtain guidance from that higher Mind (superconscious self, daimon, whatever term one prefers) which will gradually dissolve the walls put in the way of immediate experiencing. Then one can begin to be aware of oneself on the ordinary human level on other levels simultaneously. (I personally think energy plays a big role in that process too.)
Mathew James
19-06-2011, 01:23 PM
The general consensus seems to indicate two beings. The thing you think you are and the actual 'true self'.
...acceptance of all egoic persona traits is much better than trying to kill a sordid hated monsterous thing... Maybe.
It's sometimes much more about the expansion of the possibilty of that ego, what you could possibly be and that entails accepting what are current limitations and pushing the boundries, exceeding them.
Not sure if there is a third person. The actual true self can be split between our reality of our self and our reality of our self as others perceive us. Not sure if there is enough of a difference to call it a third person.
Either way the concept of expansion of ego is something that we are in agreement with. For me it is very important to allow the ego to grow, but in the right way.
mj
Sentientno1
19-06-2011, 10:37 PM
Believe and belief i notice on this forum seems to be politicaly correct. it seems it's improper to use 'know' It puts some in the position of expression either being inaccurate or watered down. If i ate breakfast this morning is it i believe i ate breakfast this morning? So as to not offend those who didn't eat breakfast or ate lunch and believe it to be breakfast. This isn't finger pointing. it's overall observation.
Gem: the ego is not a monster, it's a tool that has become a 'Hal" from space oddesy in terms of uncovering truth. ( there! i said the 'T' word) It has no reality as a free standing, independant, survivable entity beyond memory.
Careful, deep and analytical questioning can reveal that ego identity has no reality independant of component parts based on mind based on senses, it's cobbled together. it's a mistaken concept of uniqueness.
The other factor with ego is, there is no free will. Ego, because of it's fragility will ALWAYS choose that which will add veracity to it's existance, usualy it will choose that which it has been taught is beautiful. powerful or attractive because it will then win approval from outside itself. This is one reason the ancient teachers were wary of what is called siddhis, impressive astral experiences, usualy based on the heart chakra. ( been there done that) There is no black mark for staying with any siddhi. It is also however, perishable.
The ultimate truth has no attribute. Consciousness is not an attribute if only consciousness exists, there is no self, because it is not distinct from 'other' since there is no other.But it will never be percieved by the ego, because the ego is many.
So, what is the value of pure consciousness, the void? It has none the ego would want. It has no power, it has nothing impressive, it just changes literaly everything percieved. It's the end to all questions about life because they are inapplicable....
Before realistion, chopping wood, carrying water...after realisation, chopping wood carrying water. The only difference is 'everything' is now transparent.
TzuJanLi
20-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Greetings..
Believe and belief i notice on this forum seems to be politicaly correct. it seems it's improper to use 'know' It puts some in the position of expression either being inaccurate or watered down. If i ate breakfast this morning is it i believe i ate breakfast this morning? So as to not offend those who didn't eat breakfast or ate lunch and believe it to be breakfast. This isn't finger pointing. it's overall observation.
Gem: the ego is not a monster, it's a tool that has become a 'Hal" from space oddesy in terms of uncovering truth. ( there! i said the 'T' word) It has no reality as a free standing, independant, survivable entity beyond memory.
Careful, deep and analytical questioning can reveal that ego identity has no reality independant of component parts based on mind based on senses, it's cobbled together. it's a mistaken concept of uniqueness.
The other factor with ego is, there is no free will. Ego, because of it's fragility will ALWAYS choose that which will add veracity to it's existance, usualy it will choose that which it has been taught is beautiful. powerful or attractive because it will then win approval from outside itself. This is one reason the ancient teachers were wary of what is called siddhis, impressive astral experiences, usualy based on the heart chakra. ( been there done that) There is no black mark for staying with any siddhi. It is also however, perishable.
The ultimate truth has no attribute. Consciousness is not an attribute if only consciousness exists, there is no self, because it is not distinct from 'other' since there is no other.But it will never be percieved by the ego, because the ego is many.
So, what is the value of pure consciousness, the void? It has none the ego would want. It has no power, it has nothing impressive, it just changes literaly everything percieved. It's the end to all questions about life because they are inapplicable....
Before realistion, chopping wood, carrying water...after realisation, chopping wood carrying water. The only difference is 'everything' is now transparent.
Was the breakfast you ate this morning real, it's no longer there? You, the unique interconnected independently functioning verision of the Whole, are real.. the actuality that you are also temporary does not diminish your temporary realness.. it is this reluctance to accept your truth, your realness, that is the real 'politically correct' nonsense.. 'You' have the very real free-will to choose what you are, why pretend that you don't, except to avoid the responsibility of your actions?
The real "illusion" is to interact with Life and others that are observably and experientially unique, and to claim otherwise.. to exist as an independently functioning version of the Whole and pretend that it is not as real as the Whole that it is..
Be well..
Sentientno1
21-06-2011, 01:31 AM
Tzu...just how unique are you? Do you remember being born? Do you remember when you first were aware you were a you? Where were you before that awareness? Where are you in deep dreamless sleep? i told you some time before this conversation you were close enough in appearance to my brother to be his twin.
You somehow have seem to have gotten the idea one cannot function in society with knowledge of the ego being a construct. Tell me why not?
To think that free will choice is possible with ego/identity leading the way is following a carrot, a persona that will choose what reinforces it's idea of itself. This is the root of differentiation, and a value system based on, not what is the intrinsic value of anything, but of value to the ego/identity. It hides the true nature of that which you truely are without the you.
But that is so terrifying, no identity is equated with no existance. **.
Realtive reality is based on comparisons...do the people in the Falklands stand upside down? Go to the Falklands and they all seem right side up, yes? Stand on the moon and they are all upsidedown...the moon is an anomoly based on comparison with other moons, and on and on it goes.
The appearance of Diversity can truely be marveled at when it's no threat to the security we so crave as superficial egos
The underlying truth of existance is this that which appears as many is not sentient of 2
That's all very very interesting.
Mathew James
22-06-2011, 12:00 AM
Believe and belief i notice on this forum seems to be politicaly correct. it seems it's improper to use 'know' It puts some in the position of expression either being inaccurate or watered down. If i ate breakfast this morning is it i believe i ate breakfast this morning? So as to not offend those who didn't eat breakfast or ate lunch and believe it to be breakfast. This isn't finger pointing. it's overall observation.
It is not being politically correct imo, as much as it is allowing others to express themselves in an open format. There are many ways to describe how a person may or may not have "ate breakfast this morning". It is more interesting to me, to hear all the different ways, then it is to have a person tell me how they "know" the truth.
mj
Sentientno1
22-06-2011, 03:35 AM
MJ...if it allowed to let all express themselves then stating the truth is known must be one of them.
All of you here, it is assumed, look for truth no? Then why is it a forum gaff not to use the words ' I belive" or " I think", is it because it's thought the truth may be unknowable after all?
And here is the rub....i do not believe. to modify what is said by 'i believe' or IMO, would be a lie and an attempt to make what i say more appealing. And i am not unaware it appeals to very few.
The truth is stark, brillient and naked. It will not support any belief you have prior to it nor will any question you have about it be applicable.
Then it gets more tricky. Because it is about you and the thought of you, and what measure of belief supports what you are?
The quoestion is this. Do you know you are or merely believe that you are or is what you are what you really believe you are?
It's more like a question... is there such a thing as 'beyond belief'?
Sentientno1
22-06-2011, 01:14 PM
Gem "The quoestion is this. Do you know you are or merely believe that you are or is what you are what you really believe you are?"
None of the above.
"It's more like a question... is there such a thing as 'beyond belief'?"
Yes.
sound
22-06-2011, 01:26 PM
It's more like a question... is there such a thing as 'beyond belief'?
So you are not asking if we believe there is such a thing as 'beyond belief' ... you are asking if we know there is yes?
So you are not asking if we believe there is such a thing as 'beyond belief' ... you are asking if we know there is yes?
People say they believe in God and others say to Know God. I don't believe in God for the simple fact that there is no definion of God so also nothing to believe in.
What can I imagine it to be so that I may believe in it?
Isn't just people believe in something?
It has to always come back previous to that. One has to believe that there is an actual thing which believes in God...
One can't excape it, the belief in 'you' comes first, the belief in the thing that believes... still revolves around the thought of you.
I'm rambling...:redface:
Mathew James
23-06-2011, 12:43 AM
All of you here, it is assumed, look for truth no? Then why is it a forum gaff not to use the words ' I belive" or " I think", is it because it's thought the truth may be unknowable after all?
I belive most people on the SF are looking/discovering/contemplating on the concept of what Truth is to them as they journey through life. From my experience and how Truth is defined in my mind, the concept of what Truth is, is a process that has changed/grown/adapted many times over the years. So imo, when a person has watchced their own concept of Truth be grown and change over time, the words "I belive" tend to lose importance, because, what a person may have belived 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, most likely is not what they belive now. Unless of course they were programed into some religious doctrine that is designed to control people for their entire life. For them, there is never any real growth, they are only being programed by another person, who was also programed and lost.
mj
I belive most people on the SF are looking/discovering/contemplating on the concept of what Truth is to them as they journey through life. From my experience and how Truth is defined in my mind, the concept of what Truth is, is a process that has changed/grown/adapted many times over the years. So imo, when a person has watchced their own concept of Truth be grown and change over time, the words "I belive" tend to lose importance, because, what a person may have belived 10, 20, 30, 40 years ago, most likely is not what they belive now. Unless of course they were programed into some religious doctrine that is designed to control people for their entire life. For them, there is never any real growth, they are only being programed by another person, who was also programed and lost.
mj
What we are doing is seeing he believes this and she believes that and others believe something else and at the very core or all these outragous stories is the believer. That believer is the thought of you.
NightSpirit
02-07-2011, 09:47 AM
....and letting go of wind can either be rancid or non-apparent...
So let go of that idea that to relieve a tummy ache one has to pass the wind and where does it get you? Feeling better perhaps?
We can disassociate from the brain and become unthinking blobs...and i believe this happens all the time in psyche wards....or hold firm to a belief while it serves us well and be willing to 'pass' it when it doesn't.
Either way, neither precedes the other...blob or belief...belief or blob...which will it be? Without connecting to anything, we simply don't exist in human state anymore.
....and letting go of wind can either be rancid or non-apparent...
So let go of that idea that to relieve a tummy ache one has to pass the wind and where does it get you? Feeling better perhaps?
We can disassociate from the brain and become unthinking blobs...and i believe this happens all the time in psyche wards....or hold firm to a belief while it serves us well and be willing to 'pass' it when it doesn't.
Either way, neither precedes the other...blob or belief...belief or blob...which will it be? Without connecting to anything, we simply don't exist in human state anymore.
It isn't disassociating from the brain- it is not identifying with the mind- as being who we are. (thoughts, beliefs, emotions etc)
It isn't unthinking blobs- it is thinking blobs. That's what causes so much trouble and suffering- thinking- believing in our thoughts and that our thoughts are who we are.
Can you not think? For how long?
Freedom from identification with mind- from thinking- is awesome. Zen is ultimately no mind. Going beyond the mind- even if only for a short time.
p.s.- when being still, I suggest no beans for lunch. :glasses10:
moke64916
02-07-2011, 05:28 PM
The general consensus seems to indicate two beings. The thing you think you are and the actual 'true self'.
Belief is ever a powerful thing so what you really believe you are is exactly what you are, which relates directly to issues of self esteem, so there is no diminishing or belittlement of that.
Seeing Ego as flacid false insignificant troublesome thing may well be inductive of self hatred, as ego is only what you think you are.
Wonderful love and acceptance of all egoic persona traits is much better than trying to kill a sordid hated monsterous thing... Maybe.
It's sometimes much more about the expansion of the possibilty of that ego, what you could possibly be and that entails accepting what are current limitations and pushing the boundries, exceeding them.
Perhaps what you are, is only confined by what you think you are, the ego, and to be a wonderful person one would expand that thought of you into endless possibility... could be anything one wants.
Or maybe just tear the thing right down and stop feeding it so it dies... I don't know.
For me I realize the instant my ego sets in, and I laugh about it. I've realized through past experience that fear of ego just feeds it energy and you will think more of your ego rather than Self. I like this thread. You make some good valid points.:smile:
it isn't to belittle the thought of you or consider it irrelevent, just to recognize it is in flux, and there is no you seperate to the thought. We can even try to comparmentalize the ego and the 'true self', but this only seperates what is whole and organic is into comparitive static states for the sake of self definition, but the loss of self consciousness doen't rid us of sensations and emotions or a body... making the human lesser... it only frees us from inhibiting what expresses itself spontaneously in all life.
It is being wholly attentive to whatever happens to be at hand, making the utmost effort in any activity, or completely relishing in doing nothing, and finding that the me oh my oh mine has not occured in thought at all, and nothing was any different.
NightSpirit
03-07-2011, 12:57 AM
It isn't disassociating from the brain- it is not identifying with the mind- as being who we are. (thoughts, beliefs, emotions etc)
It isn't unthinking blobs- it is thinking blobs. That's what causes so much trouble and suffering- thinking- believing in our thoughts and that our thoughts are who we are.
Can you not think? For how long?
Freedom from identification with mind- from thinking- is awesome. Zen is ultimately no mind. Going beyond the mind- even if only for a short time.
p.s.- when being still, I suggest no beans for lunch. :glasses10:
I've been there Lisa...on numerous occasions. Yes, its "nice" to zen out, but at the end of it I have to pick up my pillow and join the world again :icon_eek: This is my thoughts....if we were meant to disassociate from life....if we were meant to zen all the time...then there's no point to being here in the first place. I don't get that others have trouble grasping that. Why bother being here when one continually struggles to zen off into some other warp-time? Being present in life is what its all about...not zoning out of it. Life is the "big lesson" (as everyone calls it). Zoning is for relaxation and to help with stress and unnecessary build-up of garbage thoughts. To live life to its fullest is our biggest challenge. It's easy to zone out and leave it behind for a moment. So with life comes comes beliefs, truth, lies, and all else.
Cheers
NightSpirit
03-07-2011, 01:02 AM
[QUOTE]it only frees us from inhibiting what expresses itself spontaneously in all life.
Yeah i like this bit ! *spins around the room* ...this all feels oddly familiar to me :D
I'm off to play .......
When I think of you, this feeling.
Can it be true there is no you?
What image is there read between the lines?
I have no face.
What do you think of when you think of me?
A man? Someone else? Someone I'm like?
Yes, you are not there and I am not here.
There's only something between us.
BlueSky
03-07-2011, 01:09 AM
I've been there Lisa...on numerous occasions. Yes, its "nice" to zen out, but at the end of it I have to pick up my pillow and join the world again :icon_eek: This is my thoughts....if we were meant to disassociate from life....if we were meant to zen all the time...then there's no point to being here in the first place. I don't get that others have trouble grasping that. Why bother being here when one continually struggles to zen off into some other warp-time? Being present in life is what its all about...not zoning out of it. Life is the "big lesson" (as everyone calls it). Zoning is for relaxation and to help with stress and unnecessary build-up of garbage thoughts. To live life to its fullest is our biggest challenge. It's easy to zone out and leave it behind for a moment. So with life comes comes beliefs, truth, lies, and all else.
Cheers
I agree...this is my take on all this:
Basically it is an attitude about life that is being developed by believing that we need to zen out or that is is some preferred state.
It serves no purpose except to cause you to evaluate everything in life from this attitude that says no mind is better than mind.
If I am suffering then I am suffering....it doesn't get any better than that. If I maintain a position that forces an attitude that says with no mind there is no suffering...........I am basically kidding myself.
If I am zen'd out....it doesn't get better than that either. If I maintain a postion that forces an attitude that this is the preferred way...I missed it completely.
If I maintain a postion that there is a me or maintain one that there is no me than once again I missed the boat completely.
There is nothing to figure out.....I am complete.
James
NightSpirit
03-07-2011, 01:37 AM
oh Gem..you reminded me I also wrote a poem titled "Do I Exist at All?" ...i must find it and post it here.
It doesn't specify preferences of being and not being, it's only a point of view, and this is not a developemental enlightened truth giving flower spewing guruic notion. One will say no self and one will say self is all there is, but the guru only exists as something wholly reliant on the seeker, and then it is convoluted to 'we are both teacher and student', just to hold that notion, so the idea survives... but you know james, this idea of you being or not being has no bearing on the essence of being present, and that is such a simple thing, nothing is more obvious.
BlueSky
03-07-2011, 12:15 PM
It doesn't specify preferences of being and not being, it's only a point of view, and this is not a developemental enlightened truth giving flower spewing guruic notion. One will say no self and one will say self is all there is, but the guru only exists as something wholly reliant on the seeker, and then it is convoluted to 'we are both teacher and student', just to hold that notion, so the idea survives... but you know james, this idea of you being or not being has no bearing on the essence of being present, and that is such a simple thing, nothing is more obvious.
Yes, my point exactly and in fact it may even distract from being present, or another word for present...living.
NightSpirit
03-07-2011, 12:27 PM
An apple never falls far from the tree.......
Internal Queries
03-07-2011, 01:40 PM
i thought i was me but i discovered i was also someOne else. this is an ongoing theme.
I've been there Lisa...on numerous occasions. Yes, its "nice" to zen out, but at the end of it I have to pick up my pillow and join the world again :icon_eek: This is my thoughts....if we were meant to disassociate from life....if we were meant to zen all the time...then there's no point to being here in the first place. I don't get that others have trouble grasping that. Why bother being here when one continually struggles to zen off into some other warp-time?
Being present in life is what its all about...not zoning out of it. Life is the "big lesson" (as everyone calls it). Zoning is for relaxation and to help with stress and unnecessary build-up of garbage thoughts. To live life to its fullest is our biggest challenge. It's easy to zone out and leave it behind for a moment. So with life comes comes beliefs, truth, lies, and all else.
Cheers
I get what your saying, NightSpirit.
Being present in life is what its all about...not zoning out of it
I totally agree! :thumbsup:
NightSpirit
03-07-2011, 02:23 PM
I get what your saying, NightSpirit.
I totally agree! :thumbsup:
Cheers Lisa :smile:
Gem- When I think of you, this feeling.
Can it be true there is no you?
What image is there read between the lines?
I have no face.
What do you think of when you think of me?
A man? Someone else? Someone I'm like?
Yes, you are not there and I am not here.
There's only something between us.
YES
NightSpirit
03-07-2011, 02:34 PM
"Do I Really Exist At All?"
Does the sun warm the dark of our fears?
Is the breeze only your sighing call?
The wet rain no more then your tears?
Do I really exist at all?
Or am I a dream you have created?
Do you hear my soft footsteps fall?
Is all substance to me related?
Do I really exist at all?
Is the ocean mighty your power within?
Are you the ghost of all you recall?
Does all life only cease to begin?
Do I really exist at all?
Am I simply a thought that stirs a sound?
Am I the whole of all Love you feel?
When you look away can I be found?
Is all this enough to believe I am real?
by NightSpirit
moke64916
03-07-2011, 02:38 PM
it isn't to belittle the thought of you or consider it irrelevent, just to recognize it is in flux, and there is no you seperate to the thought. We can even try to comparmentalize the ego and the 'true self', but this only seperates what is whole and organic is into comparitive static states for the sake of self definition, but the loss of self consciousness doen't rid us of sensations and emotions or a body... making the human lesser... it only frees us from inhibiting what expresses itself spontaneously in all life.
It is being wholly attentive to whatever happens to be at hand, making the utmost effort in any activity, or completely relishing in doing nothing, and finding that the me oh my oh mine has not occured in thought at all, and nothing was any different.
Once the mind, body, spirit connection is made, ego goes away. Grace takes over. Rarely do I see my ego pop up. It rarely happens. When true self is in control ego goes away. You won't get thoughts having to do with ego, your thoughts will be with that of harmony and grace. Just positive thoughts. When a resistance sets in is when the old thoughts, habits pop back up. That is when you surrender, and be in peace. Then spirit takes over again. Surrender is a continuous process. If you give no emotion to thoughts that of ego, then they go away.
moke64916
03-07-2011, 02:40 PM
"Do I Really Exist At All?"
Does the sun warm the dark of our fears?
Is the breeze only your sighing call?
The wet rain no more then your tears?
Do I really exist at all?
Or am I a dream you have created?
Do you hear my soft footsteps fall?
Is all substance to me related?
Do I really exist at all?
Is the ocean mighty your power within?
Are you the ghost of all you recall?
Does all life only cease to begin?
Do I really exist at all?
Am I simply a thought that stirs a sound?
Am I the whole of all Love you feel?
When you look away can I be found?
Is all this enough to believe I am real?
by NightSpirit
This poem of yours was true for me when I had a spiritual awakening. I lost my self of mind self, everything. It felt like I was here, but not here. I felt like I didn't exist, but I was here. It was weird at first. Then Being shed to light, and I found my true self.
NightSpirit
03-07-2011, 02:42 PM
your right...it can certainly feel that way moke :smile:
"Do I Really Exist At All?"
Does the sun warm the dark of our fears?
Is the breeze only your sighing call?
The wet rain no more then your tears?
Do I really exist at all?
Or am I a dream you have created?
Do you hear my soft footsteps fall?
Is all substance to me related?
Do I really exist at all?
Is the ocean mighty your power within?
Are you the ghost of all you recall?
Does all life only cease to begin?
Do I really exist at all?
Am I simply a thought that stirs a sound?
Am I the whole of all Love you feel?
When you look away can I be found?
Is all this enough to believe I am real?
by NightSpirit
Thanks NS, I have been looking forward to that.
Silver
04-07-2011, 02:29 AM
That's a beauty, NightSpirit, I really like your poem~!
NightSpirit
04-07-2011, 02:50 AM
thanks Gem and Silvergirl :smile:
The pondering behind the words always seems to take me to another plane of thought. Do I really exist? ...the ultimate question! Its an ungrounded question that Ive found leads me into non-existance of the 5 senses. I really can't hang there forever, even though I find it fascinating to explore.
The poem, to me, kinda sums up my responses to this thread.
Self inquiry is the cornerstone of what is termed spiritual...
Last night I was reminded of a sprirtualist named Ramana, who brings things straight to the very heart and core, I.
To feel that presence of being... and know it.
The I, if you care to examine it closely, occurs as a thought and everything else revolves around it... I am this and I am that... all that is just figures of speech to describe what we do, how we feel and our opinion about our body or psychological condition and memory.
All of the things I mentioned are there, they are easy to see, but try to find you...
vBulletin v3.5.5, Copyright ©2000-2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.