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Kismet
12-06-2011, 09:22 AM
Vishnu is all-pervading. What this means is that he is ever-present, throughout all time and space, sustaining all of nature. In this, Vishnu's immanence consists in his occupying a much more intimate relationship with time and creation than is Shiva's - the grand annihilator. This is not to say Vishnu is not transcendent. He is transcendent in that within him the principle of space and time has its condition, whereas Shiva is fully transcendent in his aspect.

One may in this regard paint the situation as a triangle. The top corner sees Shiva, calm and absolute, as presiding over all of nature and passing beyond it, into the fullness of nameless eternity. On the bottom lies Vishnu, the all-pervading purusha, stretching infinitely over all creation and containing it: all times and all localities lying within his compass. This is hardly to say Vishnu is not also nameless and transcendent, however. For what does it mean for the one substance, Hari, to be extended over all creation, to be simultaneously omniscient and purely cognizant of all things, if not to delve into the utmost transcendence?

In point of fact, both Vishnu and Shiva are one. How can they be separate? It is not merely in terms of what is apparent. Vishnu and Shiva are indeed distinct personae of Ishvara. Their oneness consists in their absolute character. How is this jarring contradiction to be resolved?

One requires a higher logic. One that takes into account the paradoxical nature of time and amends it. It is then seen that God can be more than one, in degree though not in kind, by virtue of his bearing a relationship to time differently. Shiva lies above time, whereas Vishnu possesses it. The one is aware of time to such an extent that he surpasses it completely. The second is as acutely aware as the former, but he prefers to strive within it and accomplish something out of time. The latter attempts to work and suffer in the context of the created order, to grow in loving ambition and orgiastic evolutes, to which Mahesh can in no wise sanction for his own discrete person. This endeavor is reserved for Narayana, the true indwelling "Man" in each of us, as he learns and suffers with us the pangs and groans of the whole created order yet remaining, inconceivably, ever the Master and eternally wise Counsellor, in his own infinite and ever-Supreme Moment.

http://www.indiadivine.org/attachments/audarya/hare-krishna-forum/1551d1199558549-lord-vishnu-lord-shiva-519px-harihara.jpg

Krishna-prem
15-06-2011, 02:23 AM
Sri Sri Hari Hara Ki Jai!

http://mesosyn.com/hindu7-3.jpg

murugan
15-06-2011, 09:37 AM
http://www.columbia.edu/itc/mealac/pritchett/00routesdata/0400_0499/pantheon/harihara/harihara.jpg

http://www.exoticindiaart.com/madhuban/hari_hara__the_composite_form_of_lord_vishnu_and_p j64.jpg

peteyzen
16-06-2011, 07:04 PM
Very true.
ultimately there is no division. shiva krishna brahma are one.
and so are we, our right is to experience this and return home.
never forget the goal

I-Ching
21-06-2011, 08:38 AM
I think that to say that all is one is an extreme view. Krishna, Shiva and Brahma are one but they are also different. We are one but we are also different. In the Gita Krishna says "Never was there a time that I did not exist nor you nor all these kings nor in the future will any of us cease to be." He is affirming his own individuality as well as that of the jivas. He also affirms that He is source of all spiritual and material worlds.

Truthfully,

peteyzen
21-06-2011, 12:13 PM
I see it differently, he is saying here that we all have existed forever and as god we existed before time and will never cease to exist in time or outside of it. He is, to me, in fact affirming our one ness.

I-Ching
21-06-2011, 12:34 PM
If we are God then how is that we are being dominated by over-powered by illusion. How is that we are suffering? How is that we are being forced to get old, get diseases and die. What kind of God are we? The suffering god.

Kismet
22-06-2011, 12:15 AM
If we are God then how is that we are being dominated by over-powered by illusion. How is that we are suffering? How is that we are being forced to get old, get diseases and die. What kind of God are we? The suffering god.

This is a difficult question indeed, but still far from unanswerable I think. First, you need to grant we don't know a whole lot about the ontology of God, nature or even ourselves. Things like time and perception probably play a crucial role here, and should not be treated lightly.

Secondly, I don't think your later question grapples sufficiently with the power and sovereignty of God. God cannot suffer? Well, on some level he cannot. He is impassable and no evil can ever defile his being. On the other hand, God does periodically come down according to the shastras as an avatara. In that, God's leela provides him the basis to act in like manner to other creatures who are "not God." Perhaps in like manner we each share a mystical union with God that requires a higher logic to understand properly.

peteyzen
22-06-2011, 04:51 PM
I ching, we are suffering because we are not in our right place, our true nature is not this body, it is the spark that animates it. we created this illusion so we could come here and play for a while, trying out different experiences in different lives. reincarnation and karma help to explain why we suffer and grow old.

I-Ching
23-06-2011, 08:18 AM
we created this illusion so we could come here and play for a while
So your idea is that we were God a we created a place were we would suffer from old age, desease and death ... so that we could play. Well the material world doesn't sound like a very fun playground. Your idea of God is that not only does He put Himself in suffering condition but he is also stupid!

peteyzen
23-06-2011, 08:18 PM
are u stupid when u play a computer game and get killed time and time again?

Miss Hepburn
23-06-2011, 11:21 PM
So your idea is that we were God a we created a place were we would suffer from old age, desease and death ... so that we could play. Well the material world doesn't sound like a very fun playground. Your idea of God is that not only does He put Himself in suffering condition but he is also stupid!
LOL! I love your honesty, I Ching!!

You all may like this very much - if I may:

God is Love. And Love must love. And to love there
must be a Beloved. But since God is Existence infinite
and eternal there is no one for Him to love but Himself.
And in order to love Himself He must imagine Himself
as the Beloved whom He as the Lover imagines He Loves.

Beloved and Lover implies separation. And separation
creates longing; and longing causes search. And the
wider and the more intense the search the greater the
separation and the more terrible the longing.

When longing is most intense separation is complete,
and the purpose of separation, which was that Love might
experience itself as Lover and Beloved, is fulfilled; and
union follows And when union is attained, the Lover knows
that he himself was all along the Beloved whom he loved
and desired union with; and that all the impossible situations
that he overcame were obstacles which he himself had
placed in the path to himself.

To attain union is so impossibly difficult because it is impossible
to become what you already are! Union is nothing other than
knowledge of oneself as the Only One.

Meher Baba from "The Everything and the Nothing"

Miss Hepburn
23-06-2011, 11:27 PM
As I always say - would you like to watch a Romantic Comedy for the rest of Eternity or watch an Epic filled with triumph and war,
death and rebirth, love and loss, pain and redemption... and on and on...
It is very important to know the Mind of God.

...but he who does boast let him boast of this
that he knows and understands me..

Jeremiah 9:23

I like Jeremiah...

I-Ching
24-06-2011, 08:37 AM
The Vedas explain that this world is a perverted reflection of the Spiritual World. It is perverted in the sense that everything in this world is based on selfishness whereas everything in that world is based on Love. In the Spiritual World God is engaged in an eternal play or Lila of Love with his devotees. The Love experienced in these pastimes is ever-increasing and infinitely full of variety. It is true that sometimes God comes to this world primarily for our benefit as his fallen devotees but he also comes to enjoy the unique pastime of killing demons. This material world in relation to the spiritual world is certainly a place of suffering where one living entity is food for another. It's created solely for the purpose of fulfilling the selfish desires (the desire to be God) of only 10% of the existing souls. It certainly does not give God any pleasure to have His eternal part and parcels suffering in this world of repeated birth and death, which is why he comes her to liberate us.

astroboy
24-06-2011, 01:20 PM
What is Parbrahm?

Elijah
24-06-2011, 01:24 PM
The quote from Miss Hepburn about sums it up:

"To attain union is so impossibly difficult because it is impossible to become what you already are!
Union is nothing other than knowledge of oneself as the Only One."

The Vedas point out the same thing, they are saying, hey.. you are not this suffering entity/self you believe yourself to be!
What you actually are, your true nature, is that which people call God, pure consciousness, awareness, Buddha-nature etc.

Buddha talked about there being suffering, but none who suffer - In the Gita it talks about the dream of doership leading to desire, suffering etc.
This is what it all comes down to, the idea that we exist as something separate or apart from reality/God.

"The separate self dissolves in the sea of pure consciousness, infinite and immortal. Separateness arises from identifying the Self with the body, which is made up of the elements;
When this physical identification dissolves, there can be no more separate self. This is what I want to tell you, beloved." (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad)

Chrysaetos
24-06-2011, 03:05 PM
So your idea is that we were God a we created a place were we would suffer from old age, desease and death ... so that we could play. Well the material world doesn't sound like a very fun playground. Your idea of God is that not only does He put Himself in suffering condition but he is also stupid!This world isn't as 'perfect' as our minds want it to be, that's why we come up with a soteriology to explain it.
It may not be 'perfect' but you can't say life here isn't a playground can you? ^^

But let's put it the other way.. why live in a world of ''suffering'' if god is the truth? Why are we here in the first place? Do you have an explanation for that?are u stupid when u play a computer game and get killed time and time again?Great that you mention this. IMO, a video game is only good when it does not have an end! :D

astroboy
24-06-2011, 04:01 PM
The quote from Miss Hepburn about sums it up:

"To attain union is so impossibly difficult because it is impossible to become what you already are!
Union is nothing other than knowledge of oneself as the Only One."

The Vedas point out the same thing, they are saying, hey.. you are not this suffering entity/self you believe yourself to be!
What you actually are, your true nature, is that which people call God, pure consciousness, awareness, Buddha-nature etc.

Buddha talked about there being suffering, but none who suffer - In the Gita it talks about the dream of doership leading to desire, suffering etc.
This is what it all comes down to, the idea that we exist as something separate or apart from reality/God.

"The separate self dissolves in the sea of pure consciousness, infinite and immortal. Separateness arises from identifying the Self with the body, which is made up of the elements;
When this physical identification dissolves, there can be no more separate self. This is what I want to tell you, beloved." (Brihadaranyaka Upanishad)
Elijah,
You made my day! I was once lost and now I am found. Thank you.

I-Ching
24-06-2011, 07:15 PM
Union is nothing other than knowledge of oneself as the Only One As i have already said in this thread for their to be love there must be TWO, there must onesness and DIFFERENCE. In the Gita Krishna says "Never was there a time that I did not exist nor you". He affirms our eternal individual identity.

This nonsense that you are God is nothing more than pride. Material nature is forcing the living entity to be humbled by so many miseries, yet some entity is still so foolish to think that I am God. It's like a citizen that refuses to accept the President and therefore declares that we are all the President. By saying that we are all God you are basically saying their is no God. This nothing more than covered atheism.

Elijah
25-06-2011, 11:22 AM
As i have already said in this thread for their to be love there must be TWO, there must oneness and DIFFERENCE.Sure there is difference, but it's all one thing, one movement, one cog.
It's like the Zen Koan; What's the sound of one hand clapping? Well the mind usually tells us that it takes two things to make the sound of clapping..
This Koan points beyond that mode of thinking, one hand clapping is now all hands clapping, one hand clapping is all that is.In the Gita Krishna says "Never was there a time that I did not exist nor you". He affirms our eternal individual identity.That's what we see when we only look at things from the idea of separation.
The I and the You Krishna refers to are simply practical terms of language, what he's pointing to is the One reality that has never ceased to be.This nonsense that you are God is nothing more than pride.No so-called enlightened being will tell you they are God or that they are enlightened personally/individually.
The reason for this is that there is no longer the delusion of exisiting as something separate that could be God or enlightened.
All that remains is what is, they are not it, God is not it, no-one is it, there is only that, everything is that.There is no such thing as a Self-realised person. When there is no "person" the Self is realised. When there is no "person" the question of coming and going cannot arise.
The body is an appearance in the Self. When the body disappears the Self remains as it always was and is. Realisation is the understanding "I am not this body which comes and goes,
I am that permanent, unchanging reality in which the body and all else appears. (Papaji)^^ This is what Krishna was teaching Arjuna. It's the same meaning the quote from the Veda carries, or Jesus:
"I am the light that shines over all things. I am everything. From me all came forth, and to me all return." - Again pointing to that one reality.

I-Ching
26-06-2011, 10:24 AM
Sure there is difference So you accept that there is difference then. I am not denying that all is one but I am saying there is also difference. The difference is that we are one in quality with Krishna but not in quantity. Just like a ray of sunshine is one with the sun but at the same time they are different. They are eternally different. The soul can never merge into and become Krishna. This is a materialistic, atheistic notion.

Krishna confirms that he is the source of everything but that doesn't mean that he has ceased to exist and become everything. He is everything but everything is not Him.

He says in Gita 2.23 "The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind.". The soul does not merge or emerge, it is eternal and every existing part and parcel of Krishna. One and DIFFERENT.

moksh
31-08-2011, 09:38 AM
'If we are God then how is that we are being dominated by over-powered by illusion. How is that we are suffering? How is that we are being forced to get old, get diseases and die. What kind of God are we? The suffering god.'

brother the first thing that u should know is that u are not the body but the soul and lord krishna in chapter 18 says 'ishwara sarbabhutanam hridaya arjun tistate' which means the lord is situated in ones heart and the soul itself is the iswara and when it comes to soul its satchitananda in itself. so whos suffering u or ur mind, whos getting diseases u or ur body. brother soul is pure stainless, and impersonal. we arent suffering god bekause soul neber suffers and there is saying that goes 'man hi karta man hi bhokta' which means ones mind is the doer and the same mind is the reaper of aktion. the bery first thing u should understand is that u are not your body but the soul and when u know this the bodily concept dissolbes and diseases, old age, death is only related to body but not the soul.

'As i have already said in this thread for their to be there must be TWO, there must onesness and DIFFERENCE. In the Gita Krishna says "Never was there a time that I did not exist nor you". He affirms our eternal individual identity.'

well u are right in this point that for love there must be two. brother u should first know what love is oneness in itself. first there is a bhakta and a bhagawan but when a bhakta is dissolbed in the lobe of a bhagawan and he losses his identity then he bekomes bhagawan himself and this doesnt mean that he is gonna habe 4 hands. its just that ur mind stops and u bekome a soul and he is the super soul and the soul is the parabrahma as bedas say 'aham brahmashmi' i.e 'i am the brahma'.
hare krishna philosophy is based on achintya bheda abheda philosophy which says we are unthinkably one and different from the lord. for eg.
we are the the wabes in the ocean, we are one in a sense that our source is the ocean itself and different in the sense that we habe bekome a wabes, but if u are to look from a more deeper perspektibe then there is no differense in wabes and the ocean. to be the wabes is duality and for the wabes to be the ocean is non dual.

Miss Hepburn
31-08-2011, 01:45 PM
Funny how I had no problem understanding every word - even though the
"b" button was pressed instead of the "v" sooo many many times!
:D

Well, said and welcome here, moksh.