View Full Version : That Unchanging thing
~
The things that change are not our real life.
Within us there is another body, another beauty.
It belongs to that ray of Light which never changes.
We must discover how to mingle with It and become one
with that Unchanging thing.
We must realize and understand this treasure of Truth.
That is why we have come to the world.
Within your heart in a space no bigger than an atom,
God has placed the 18,000 universes.
- Bawa Muhaiyaddeen, Sufi Master
~
unus supra
25-05-2011, 04:42 AM
the Immovable, the Absolute,
that was a thing of beauty
would it offend you if i where to borrow for a time that last stanza?
amazing....you know when you see something, or read something that just points a finger into your heart. that just did it.
right on, thanks for sharing.
Emmalevine
25-05-2011, 11:54 AM
Beautiful, thanks.
TzuJanLi
25-05-2011, 02:15 PM
Greetings..
It is one of many beliefs.. it is easy to imagine that which is unchanging, but.. it is non-existent, it is talk.. if this is not so, show me the unchanging thing.. there is complete liberation when one finally releases their attachment to a belief in something/anything, let each moment reveal its infinite potential .. let go, free-fall into what you 'are'.. stop tethering yourself to beliefs..
Be well..
gentledove
25-05-2011, 02:31 PM
I'm amazed at how long the truth has been out there and how many and how varied are the sources who've revealed it...pop singers to Sufi Masters!
Beautiful Xan!
the Immovable, the Absolute,
that was a thing of beauty
would it offend you if i where to borrow for a time that last stanza?
amazing....you know when you see something, or read something that just points a finger into your heart. that just did it.
right on, thanks for sharing.
Please do borrow it unus.... I did.
Xan
It is one of many beliefs.. it is easy to imagine that which is unchanging, but.. it is non-existent, it is talk..
if this is not so, show me the unchanging thing.. there is complete liberation when one finally releases their attachment to a belief in something/anything, let each moment reveal its infinite potential ..
Yes Bob, the idea that there is something eternal, unboundaried and changeless does seem imaginary... until we become aware in it ourselves.
So this advice is good... "let go, free-fall into what you 'are'.. stop tethering yourself to beliefs.." It is an essential part of experientially discovering the pure unchanging essence of existence, from which all potential arises.
blessings
Xan
Chrysaetos
25-05-2011, 06:30 PM
The things that change are not our real life.
Within us there is another body, another beauty. I disagree.. everything that exists is part of existence therefore it is.. real. People who are meditating are as much real as people who are.. drunk?:tongue:
Sure, we may have a preference, but that doesn't change the reality of diversity.
It belongs to that ray of Light which never changes. We must discover how to mingle with It and become one with that Unchanging thing.
What if it already exists as it should be? This idea of 'must discover' is a game of the mind (not saying that is wrong btw.).
Also.. if we can become one or 'have' to become one with 'that Unchanging thing' we are left with the question why it wasn't 'one' in the first place. :D
We must realize and understand this treasure of Truth.That is why we have come to the world.Maybe I've come to this world to have some fun, or see some cool stuff, or to be lazy..!
There is no 'we must' and 'we have'.. there is only 'I want' and 'I have to' .. :smile:Within your heart in a space no bigger than an atom, God has placed the 18,000 universes.Numbers imply limitations..
Chrystaeos: ...if we can become one or 'have' to become one with 'that Unchanging thing' we are left with the question why it wasn't 'one' in the first place.
It was 'one' in the first place, and more Real than real... we just forgot to notice for a long time.
Now it's coming back to us. "Oh yeah, Now I remember." :tongue:
Xan
DulcePoetica
25-05-2011, 06:54 PM
Greetings..
It is one of many beliefs.. it is easy to imagine that which is unchanging, but.. it is non-existent, it is talk.. if this is not so, show me the unchanging thing.. there is complete liberation when one finally releases their attachment to a belief in something/anything, let each moment reveal its infinite potential .. let go, free-fall into what you 'are'.. stop tethering yourself to beliefs..
Be well..
I'm a big fan of having a sense of direction, can't help myself really. I generally aim for ideas and motivations that embrace all of reality as I perceive it in any given moment. I like the idea of the "The Unchanging Thing." It's genius really, because even if there is no such thing; anytime I think I have found The Unchanging Thing and it changes, I'll just have to go deeper. The quest itself is precisely what will force me to let go of ideas and beliefs that prove themselves to be non-existent.
Dulce: ...anytime I think I have found The Unchanging Thing and it changes, I'll just have to go deeper...
Well said, Dulce.
Xan
TzuJanLi
25-05-2011, 07:07 PM
Greetings..
anytime I think I have found The Unchanging Thing and it changes, I'll just have to go deeper. The quest itself is precisely what will force me to let go of ideas and beliefs that prove themselves to be non-existent.
Brilliant!! it is the 'road less traveled', simply because there is no destination.. journey well!
Be well..
It is rather imagined to be unchanging and it's a lovely sentiment the poem expresses.
That there is the unchanging, the eternal, the perfect, may seem only imagined... until one experiences it for themselves.
Xan
Mountain-Goat
27-05-2011, 03:02 AM
~The things that change are not our real life. - Bawa Muhaiyaddeen, Sufi Master~Here's another bloke with unresolved issues.
Why do they carry on about this temporal physical existance, claiming it doesn't exist, or it's false, an illusion?
Ah but AC... I don't hear him saying the temporal life doesn't exist... but underneath it all there is a More real life. It can be discovered by anyone.
Xan
Chrysaetos
27-05-2011, 03:41 PM
Chrystaeos: ...if we can become one or 'have' to become one with 'that Unchanging thing' we are left with the question why it wasn't 'one' in the first place.
It was 'one' in the first place, and more Real than real... we just forgot to notice for a long time.
Now it's coming back to us. "Oh yeah, Now I remember." XanBeing in a state of 'Real' and then forgetting it does not explain the why's and how's.
Also, would you say that even if one has reached that place, one can still go back to the previous place?
Even that which you consider 'unchanging' may also be changing at some level.. That there is the unchanging, the eternal, the perfect, may seem only imagined... until one experiences it for themselves.
XanAs soon as you are back to your thoughtful mind, you translate the experience to words and come up with eternal and perfect..
Chrysaetos: Being in a state of 'Real' and then forgetting it does not explain the why's and how's.
True enough, Chrysaetos. There are many speculations about the why and how of forgetting, but who knows for sure? I spent some years trying to uncover this because I thought it would show me the way back. I finally gave in up in favor of just doing practices that reveal it in my awareness.
Also, would you say that even if one has reached that place, one can still go back to the previous place?
Yes, in the beginning process of awakening we discover the open space of the Real in glimpses and then fall back into our established mind habits. As we continue in our practice and letting go of those habits our glimpses increase until the knowing becomes continuous. Even then there is an ongoing process of deepening and discovery.
I've heard there are those rare ones who get 'sudden enlightenment' but for the rest of us it is gradual.
Even that which you consider 'unchanging' may also be changing at some level..
As I experience it, the infinite still source and essence of all things is never changing while its expressions are ever-changing.
As soon as you are back to your thoughtful mind, you translate the experience to words and come up with eternal and perfect..
For sure, we use the mind to communicate about something that is actually beyond the mind and indefinable, but we point toward it so others might take notice. There does come a point when we no longer fluctuate but use the mind's capacities from a background of continual whole awareness.
My view is that most people have glimpses of the silent open space of the Real but since it doesn't seem like anything useful they skip on over it. By pointing toward it perhaps next time they'll stop and think, "Oh That's what they mean." :smile:
Xan
Changing and unchanging are opposites and of duality, of concept, of thought.
It is both, it is neither, it is meaningless.
"It is this." "It is that."
It is a house of cards bound to fall.
Nothing left but laughter. :duckie:
Changing and unchanging is not the meaning of duality which is about subject and object, observer and observed, being separate and apart.
Rather, we can be aware in the never-changing essence and its ever-changing expressions simultaneously since they are what make up 'me'.
Xan
Changing and unchanging are opposites and of duality, of concept, of thought.
It is both, it is neither, it is meaningless.
"It is this." "It is that."
It is a house of cards bound to fall.
Nothing left but laughter. :duckie:
YaY...
The stillness and the motion are aspects of the mind.
(Giggles)
They are aspects of consciousness and energy. The mind is one widdew piece of that.
Xan
YaY...
The stillness and the motion are aspects of the mind.
(Giggles)
:icon_lol:
You're right.
The concepts are. Without them, as you say, what is is. :smile:
Ahh yes... concepts about concepts. Oh well. :smile:
Xan
:icon_lol:
You're right.
The concepts are. Without them, as you say, what is is. :smile:
It simply gets to what is behind us all, and this has no quality of space stillness or change or sameness... It isn't attributable in any fashion and awareness is simply the means of realization... not the end game as it were... the presence of this is completely indisputable and everyone feels it despite worship creed or philosophy.
People describe love as the essence for example, but also are aware of love because it is felt as a purity of spirit and awareness is the vessel for knowing love... and prior to this awareness is the 'love' of which we are aware... did I stop making sense yet?
It simply gets to what is behind us all, and this has no quality of space stillness or change or sameness... It isn't attributable in any fashion and awareness is simply the means of realization... not the end game as it were... the presence of this is completely indisputable and everyone feels it despite worship creed or philosophy.
People describe love as the essence for example, but also are aware of love because it is felt as a purity of spirit and awareness is the vessel for knowing love... and prior to this awareness is the 'love' of which we are aware... did I stop making sense yet?
lol, yeah a ways a back. But I totally agree with you. :icon_mrgreen:
You're irresistable! :hug:
Ahh yes... concepts about concepts. Oh well. :smile:
Xan
Madam, you have no concept. :D
Mountain-Goat
31-05-2011, 01:43 AM
Ah but AC... I don't hear him saying the temporal life doesn't exist... but underneath it all there is a More real life. It can be discovered by anyone.
Xan
The things that change are not our real life. - Bawa Muhaiyaddeen, Sufi Master~
I do. He's saying anything impermanent is not real.
And now you have said something new, or I have not seen you say it before now.
Usually you say, there is a true self and a false self, or a true life and a false life, or a true realm and a false realm.
This time however, you are saying, not Bawa, you are saying that this temporal life is real, but there is more to life beyond it.
I totally agree with you on that, but I don't agree with people when they claim this temporal life is illusory, false or unreal.
:icon_lol:
You're right.
The concepts are. Without them, as you say, what is is. :smile:
They are experiences and experience is what occurs to mind.
They are experiences and experience is what occurs to mind.
They come and go.
Eating the apple, the apple, the apple tree- all come and go.
Where is that apple tree full of apples that were picked and eaten a hundred years ago, five hundred, five thousand? And where are those who experienced it? And the minds that experienced it?
Does anyone know their names even?
100 years, 200 years from now all the experiences here- mostly memories- are over.
What do they point to?
That which is eternal- that which allows it all to be- for a time.
That is beyond experience, mind, concept and the senses.
You know that.
gentledove
31-05-2011, 05:43 PM
Rather, we can be aware in the never-changing essence and its ever-changing expressions simultaneously since they are what make up 'me'.
This is true. I've been in a limited state (embodied which btw to me is not an illusion at least not anymore than anything else) and in the less-limited more expanded state (the Light). However, I was me here and I was me there. No matter how much we change we will at the core, still be ourselves.
All controlled movement must arise from stability/balance. Almost everything around us is reflective of that. For instance, the ground beneath our feet is relatively stable and if not we may fall or end up on TV's funniest home videos. By finding our inner foundation/stillness we can move with grace, imo.
I was me here and I was me there...
Yes, dove... Looking more closely into just what is this "me" that is always here... what do you find?
Xan
The things that change are not our real life. - Bawa Muhaiyaddeen, Sufi Master~
I do. He's saying anything impermanent is not real.
And now you have said something new, or I have not seen you say it before now.
Usually you say, there is a true self and a false self, or a true life and a false life, or a true realm and a false realm.
This time however, you are saying, not Bawa, you are saying that this temporal life is real, but there is more to life beyond it.
I totally agree with you on that, but I don't agree with people when they claim this temporal life is illusory, false or unreal.
Well AC... that all depends on what we mean by "real" doesn't it? :wink:
For me that's sort of beside the point, but becoming aware of the eternal unchanging foundation within and everywhere, of everything that changes, is an essential part of spiritual awakening.
It's the unchanging Being we are that we forgot and now many are rediscovering.
Xan
TzuJanLi
31-05-2011, 06:07 PM
Greetings..
The 'me' that is eternal, is also the 'me' that is Now.. "Be Here Now", the distraction is searching elsewhere for what i already am, Now.. as if Eternal me is better than Now me..
Be well..
BlueSky
31-05-2011, 06:10 PM
Greetings..
The 'me' that is eternal, is also the 'me' that is Now.. "Be Here Now", the distraction is searching elsewhere for what i already am, Now.. as if Eternal me is better than Now me..
Be well..
and I will add to these wise words that when I came to know this, it liberated me beyond imagination. :smile:
The 'me' that is eternal, is also the 'me' that is Now.. "Be Here Now", the distraction is searching elsewhere for what i already am, Now.. as if Eternal me is better than Now me..
Well Bob... That all depends on what we mean by "now". :wink:
If you mean the present time, then that's one part of the ever-changing 'me'.
If you mean the Now that is out-of-time, that's the eternal wholeness that is 'me'.
Xan
TzuJanLi
31-05-2011, 06:19 PM
Greetings..
Well Bob... That all depends on what we mean by "now". :wink:
If you mean the present time, then that's one part of the ever-changing 'me'.
If you mean the Now that is out-of-time, that's the eternal wholeness that is 'me'.
Xan
Hi Xan: I truly hope you find what it is you are searching for.. you create ever-nore complex beliefs with which to oppose and conquer.. Now is just 'Now' this very instant of eternal being, no more and no less.. and this Now includes "the present time", and IS the present time..
Be well..
Actually, Bob, I am what I was searching for and it is absolutely simple.
Let me say this once more:
What we have been conditioned to believe we are is only our surface self identity, in time and space.
However, we may wake up into our eternal whole Self
which is not the empty abstraction people may fear
but is pure awareness and love itself.
Xan
gentledove
31-05-2011, 06:45 PM
Greetings..
The 'me' that is eternal, is also the 'me' that is Now.. "Be Here Now", the distraction is searching elsewhere for what i already am, Now.. as if Eternal me is better than Now me..
Be well..
Well, I wonder how someone can not be here now? We are here now and we always are ourselves. I don't understand how we can not be ourselves. We can be more aware (in stillness or meditation) or less aware (under the influence of alcohol, or anesthesia). Being more aware would, under ordinary circumstances, lead to more fulfilling experiences, imo. However, if someone were operating on my body I suppose I would choose to be less aware (anesthesia).
Sometimes distractions can be like anesthesia, but that doesn't make us any less who we are. I guess the ? would be, do we want to live our entire physical experience numbed out by drugs or distractions? It's a choice..I ain't judgin'...:wink:
Hi Xan,
In the Light I felt the me essence/energy which lives apart from the body. I'm a creation in progress, but I will always have a history written in God's heart that makes me unique. At each iteration I'm still myself and secure in knowing that I'm ever deeply loved by the Light, as Gem has wisely pointed out, flaws and all.
And yes, I hear what you're saying Xan, when I felt the intensity of God's love I realized myself as that same blazing love energy that ignites the universe. There really is nothing else. It takes so many forms/identities, but that energy is what we all are...how beautiful!
gentledove: Well, I wonder how someone can not be here now? We are here now and we always are ourselves. I don't understand how we can not be ourselves.
We can be more aware (in stillness or meditation) or less aware (under the influence of alcohol, or anesthesia). Being more aware would, under ordinary circumstances, lead to more fulfilling experiences, imo. However, if someone were operating on my body I suppose I would choose to be less aware (anesthesia).
Of course we can't not be ourselves, but we can lose awareness of our inner self in the sort of anesthesia of normal human consciousness, where the mind has begun so involved with past and future that the Now isn't much noticed. This is what the current wave of spiritual awakening is all about.
In the Light I felt the me essence/energy which lives apart from the body.
This is the 'me' I'm pointing toward (for folks who are puzzled).
This "I" lives both apart from the body, and in it temporarily.
And it is the "I Am" that feels it all.
Xan
BlueSky
31-05-2011, 07:08 PM
Well, I wonder how someone can not be here now? We are here now and we always are ourselves. I don't understand how we can not be ourselves. We can be more aware (in stillness or meditation) or less aware (under the influence of alcohol, or anesthesia). Being more aware would, under ordinary circumstances, lead to more fulfilling experiences, imo. However, if someone were operating on my body I suppose I would choose to be less aware (anesthesia). Gentledove
Hi GentleDove,
If I may......
I take what Tzu has said to be that seeking for something better or something more does not allow you to fully embrace and experience that which is.
If you are thinking about tomorrow while you are eating your dinner, you will have missed the beauty of that dinner whereas if you embrace it and place your undivided attention on it, you will notice smells and tastes and textures that I imagine most people miss.
You seem to have this covered though as it is apparent that you embrace who you are and life as it presents itself to you quite well.
Blessings, James
TzuJanLi
31-05-2011, 10:31 PM
Well, I wonder how someone can not be here now? We are here now and we always are ourselves. I don't understand how we can not be ourselves. We can be more aware (in stillness or meditation) or less aware (under the influence of alcohol, or anesthesia). Being more aware would, under ordinary circumstances, lead to more fulfilling experiences, imo. However, if someone were operating on my body I suppose I would choose to be less aware (anesthesia).
Sometimes distractions can be like anesthesia, but that doesn't make us any less who we are. I guess the ? would be, do we want to live our entire physical experience numbed out by drugs or distractions? It's a choice..I ain't judgin'...:wink:
Hi Xan,
In the Light I felt the me essence/energy which lives apart from the body. I'm a creation in progress, but I will always have a history written in God's heart that makes me unique. At each iteration I'm still myself and secure in knowing that I'm ever deeply loved by the Light, as Gem has wisely pointed out, flaws and all.
And yes, I hear what you're saying Xan, when I felt the intensity of God's love I realized myself as that same blazing love energy that ignites the universe. There really is nothing else. It takes so many forms/identities, but that energy is what we all are...how beautiful!
Oh boy.. okay, i know this won't sit well with most folks, but.. look at your response to Xan, all of the embellished wordiness about your experiences, "blazing love", "loved by the Light", "ignites the universe", etc.. those words are unique personal perspectives, and distractions to those seeking their own personal experiences.. that being said, those are great descriptions, but.. they prejudice a seekers expectation of their own experiences, and.. when it doesn't happen the way 'your personal' description has influenced their expectation, they question the process.. if i can stay focused on the process rather than my interpretation of that process, and keep it simple, i have a much better opportunity of helping a seeker have 'their own' experiences without the expectation that it will be like my 'interpretation' of my experiences..
Be well..
Mountain-Goat
01-06-2011, 01:42 AM
Well AC... that all depends on what we mean by "real" doesn't it? :wink:
~smiles~ Have you been infected with the themaster virus?
For me that's sort of beside the point, but becoming aware of the eternal unchanging foundation within and everywhere, of everything that changes, is an essential part of spiritual awakening.
It's the unchanging Being we are that we forgot and now many are rediscovering.
Xan
Look, I get that, but when someone says that the things that change are not our real life, I take that to mean they are saying any impermanence is not real, is illusory.
How else am I to take a statement that something is not real?
Look, I get that, but when someone says that the things that change are not our real life, I take that to mean they are saying any impermanence is not real, is illusory.
How else am I to take a statement that something is not real?
You might take it that 'not real' is simply an expression that means something to the person who said it.
If it were me I wouldn't want to get hung up on the idea of real or unreal. We live it out either way, don't we.
Xan
Oh boy..
In my view there are many ways to express ourselves about what we experience... some with more feeling words than others. Who's to say which is right, or what effect they might have? Or maybe you are just uncomfortable with the feeling ones, Bob. :wink:
Xan
Mountain-Goat
01-06-2011, 02:25 AM
You might take it that 'not real' is simply an expression that means something to the person who said it.
If it were me I wouldn't want to get hung up on the idea of real or unreal. We live it out either way, don't we.
Xan
So if someone says something is not real, I should just ignore them instead of making enquiries as to what they mean?
So if someone says something is not real, I should just ignore them instead of making enquiries as to what they mean?
I have no idea what you 'should' do, AC. But why get stuck on it?
Xan
TzuJanLi
01-06-2011, 03:07 AM
Greetings..
You might take it that 'not real' is an expression that means something to the person who said it.
If it were me I wouldn't want to get hung up on the idea of real or unreal. We live it out either way, don't we.
Xan
Hi Xan: I agree, getting hung-up on 'real/not real' makes not one bit of 'real' difference.. "we live it out either way".. so it is, and has always been, my focus is to understand the process of Life and living it.. and, it includes the Whole Eternal Self, without diminishing in any way the temporary self, as they are the same, and.. to do this without using personal terminologies that might influence other seekers to expect something that the personal terminologies used by 'me' means something differently to them.. as an example you say:
However, we may wake up into our eternal whole Self
which is not the empty abstraction people may fear
but is pure awareness and love itself.
I have different understandings of the meanings of "awareness and love" than you have used them in this description, and my understanding is inconsistent with your usage, it creates an unresolvable conflict.. the reason is that awareness has a fairly common and well-defined meaning, and Love is so abstractly ill-defined as to be nearly meaningless, to me, in this reference.. the point i have always been trying to make, is that there is a disconnect when people insist that their 'personal' understandings and meanings are the most appropriate for matters in which it is likely that the most appropriate meanings are best derived from the experiencer's own personal direct experience..
My understanding of 'awareness' is simply the capacity for sensing information about the environment.. the 'information' is not limited to an external environment, as if it were separate from me, and.. the information is sensed by more than the traditional five physical senses, but.. that is the simple meaning that most people will understand, 'the capacity for sensing information about the environment'..
I experience the word Love as an over-used word that has lost its deeply personal and interpersonal meanings, abducted by commercialized ventures and new-age gurus to mean whatever the moment inspires.. language in general has been diminished to suit the whims of idealists seeking instant gratification to the point that it is difficult to have a meaningful conversation about spiritual matters..
It is my sincere hope that i inspire people to discover their own personal relationhip with themselves as an Eternal Whole Being, and to experience others as that same Eternal Whole Being in all of its diversity.. the same "hurt one/hurt all ~ help one/help all" understanding that offers real promise for improving the human condition for all my brothers and sisters..
Be well..
Tzu: Love is so abstractly ill-defined as to be nearly meaningless, to me
Yes... love is truly indefinable.
Gem once said, "Love is the feeling you know when you feel it" or something like that.
Experiencing/feeling/sharing love is what's important. Then we try to describe it and, well.......
My understanding of 'awareness' is simply the capacity for sensing information about the environment..
What you are describing, sensing the environment, is what I call 'perception' as it relies on the senses and awareness does not.
In my way of seeing, 'awareness' is how we know that we exist... and what we experience.
Xan
What I did say is 'everyone knows what love is, the love you feel is love.'
TSU: My understanding of 'awareness' is simply the capacity for sensing information about the environment..
XAN: What you are describing, sensing the environment, is what I call 'perception' as it relies on the senses and awareness does not.
Awareness and perception... can one be without the other?
So if someone says something is not real, I should just ignore them instead of making enquiries as to what they mean?
I never could figure out what 'real' and 'illusion' were implying.
Here I experience a computer happening, so be it, what is 'real or 'illusion'... is it really there? Is it an illusion? I don't see how that makes any difference.
Then we get so stupid and say 'It's really an illusion.' Hehehehehe.
TzuJanLi
01-06-2011, 04:49 AM
Tzu: Love is so abstractly ill-defined as to be nearly meaningless, to me
Yes... love is truly indefinable.
Gem once said, "Love is the feeling you know when you feel it" or something like that.
Experiencing/feeling/sharing love is what's important. Then we try to describe it and, well.......
My understanding of 'awareness' is simply the capacity for sensing information about the environment..
What you are describing, sensing the environment, is what I call 'perception' as it relies on the senses and awareness does not.
In my way of seeing, 'awareness' is how we know that we exist... and what we experience.
Xan
Hi Xan: To be clear, what i posted was:
My understanding of 'awareness' is simply the capacity for sensing information about the environment.. the 'information' is not limited to an external environment, as if it were separate from me, and.. the information is sensed by more than the traditional five physical senses, but.. that is the simple meaning that most people will understand, 'the capacity for sensing information about the environment'..
You seem to have missed the point of my post, and seem to be focused on asserting 'your' particular "way of seeing" awareness as preferred to the common definition.. how do we 'know what we experience' without the senses? i understand awareness as the ability to perceive, and the ability is not limited to the five senses.. and our 'environment' is the totality of the Cosmos.. so, you state:
Originally Posted by Xan
However, we may wake up into our eternal whole Self
which is not the empty abstraction people may fear
but is pure awareness and love itself.
Do you intend that the following quote about 'awareness' and the one above reference the same 'awareness'?
"In my way of seeing, 'awareness' is how we know that we exist... and what we experience."
I understand that 'we' are the same whether 'eternal whole' or individual parts of that whole, but.. the 'we' in "how we know" would be different in your understanding.. in one instance you suggest that "our eternal whole self is pure awareness", and in another you suggest that it is "how we know that we exist and what we experience".. i don't prefer to be so picky, but you seem to be avoiding or misunderstanding what i am trying to communicate, and mis-stating my words to give misleading appearances.. i choose to believe the mis-stating is unintentional and fueled by your passion for your beliefs..
Be well..
TzuJanLi
01-06-2011, 05:13 AM
Greetings..
What I did say is 'everyone knows what love is, the love you feel is love.'
Hi Gem: as an example of 'misunderstandings of meaning', i love the taste of bread pudding.. and, i love my family.. and, i love Life.. and, i love peace and harmony.. i feel each of those 'loves', and each of them 'feel' different.. this is intended to illustrate the differences in perception of the 'word' love and its usage and the sometimes trite over-usage..
Sometimes, i hear people say 'God is Love'.. or, 'Love is all'.. or, Life is Love'.. here's what i 'know', that two people merge as One, a united being of more completeness than the 'parts' it once was.. i hold the word 'Love' as sacred for this union, representative of the potential for humanity.. that through Unity humanity can acheive more completeness of its potential, and greater vision and understanding of itself as parts and the greater whole those parts represent.. it is all founded on relationships, between people, and between people and the Whole that they are.. this is the Love i know..
Be well..
Greetings..
Hi Gem: as an example of 'misunderstandings of meaning', i love the taste of bread pudding.. and, i love my family.. and, i love Life.. and, i love peace and harmony.. i feel each of those 'loves', and each of them 'feel' different.. this is intended to illustrate the differences in perception of the 'word' love and its usage and the sometimes trite over-usage..
Sometimes, i hear people say 'God is Love'.. or, 'Love is all'.. or, Life is Love'.. here's what i 'know', that two people merge as One, a united being of more completeness than the 'parts' it once was.. i hold the word 'Love' as sacred for this union, representative of the potential for humanity.. that through Unity humanity can acheive more completeness of its potential, and greater vision and understanding of itself as parts and the greater whole those parts represent.. it is all founded on relationships, between people, and between people and the Whole that they are.. this is the Love i know..
Be well..
Love is all different things depending on the object of that love, and people say 'God is love' etc to make a spiritual impression.
In the large sense love can be felt not as a seperate entity in love with something else but a relative entity... with uniqueness.
It follows that love is never experienced by sameness but in a unique way as moments unfurl, so one can never say what love 'really' is, and it's only ever this love as it is right now.
I know you know love... and every person also does... but the love gurus preach it is some other thing called 'God' or other conceptual nonsense, where it is no other that the love you know and love. Hehehehe.
psychoslice
01-06-2011, 06:55 AM
But are you not also preaching love Gem, you say I know you know love, but how do you know ?.
But are you not also preaching love Gem, you say I know you know love, but how do you know ?.
I never preach and saying love is the love you feel says nothing about what love is. It merely reasures people against being tricked into love guru conceptions.
When someone says 'love is the ocean and la de da de da...' is the illusion that forms in the mind somehow realer than the direct knowledge that 'this love' is love. Nope... that ocean thingy is hocum but that stuff in your heart is the jackpot.
psychoslice
01-06-2011, 07:13 AM
I never preach and saying love is the love you feel says nothing about what love is. It merely reasures people against being tricked into love guru conceptions.
When someone says 'love is the ocean and la de da de da...' is the illusion that forms in the mind somehow realer than the direct knowledge that 'this love' is love. Nope... that ocean thingy is hocum but that stuff in your heart is the jackpot.
That stuff in your head is ****, you know the old saying, you got to cut off the head. But the ocean and all the other metaphors are not what IS, there just pointers, don't blame the pointers.
arive nan
01-06-2011, 07:38 AM
that ocean thingy is hocum
The metaphors are just how people describe how it feels for them. They felt it, and due to the way it felt for them they feel that the metaphors make sense as a description of the way it feels in their own hearts. They are saying that that is what it can be compared to, not that that's what it is.
They felt it. It's real to them because they felt it. You're saying it's not real because they made a comparison about something you haven't felt. But most of the people who have felt it find that the wave to ocean metaphor makes sense. Actually, my first nondual experience happened as a result of reading other people's descriptions of what it is like, which included the ocean metaphor. That metaphor helped me to understand what they were talking about and experience it myself. Then I found out that it really does feel like that. They're not lying about how it feels to them or what they feel it can be compared to.
psychoslice
01-06-2011, 08:24 AM
Beautifully said arive nan, the metaphors also helped me to a realization, that I can also only put into a metaphor.
The metaphors are just how people describe how it feels for them. They felt it, and due to the way it felt for them they feel that the metaphors make sense as a description of the way it feels in their own hearts. They are saying that that is what it can be compared to, not that that's what it is.
They felt it. It's real to them because they felt it. You're saying it's not real because they made a comparison about something you haven't felt. But most of the people who have felt it find that the wave to ocean metaphor makes sense. Actually, my first nondual experience happened as a result of reading other people's descriptions of what it is like, which included the ocean metaphor. That metaphor helped me to understand what they were talking about and experience it myself. Then I found out that it really does feel like that. They're not lying about how it feels to them or what they feel it can be compared to.
It is fine... very poetic.
What haven't I felt that everyone hasn't felt? That's where you are saying I haven't felt love and what I feel isn't it... it's more the friggin ocean story.
I don't mind the ocean story at all, but the love I have is not something I imagine to be your holy experience, and you can rant all night about your own splendourous love story, but that in my heart is what love is
That stuff in your head is ****, you know the old saying, you got to cut off the head. But the ocean and all the other metaphors are not what IS, there just pointers, don't blame the pointers.
I don't blame the pointers, It's just that people imply I haven't experienced love compared to that they have experienced, maybe one day I will love as does Arive Nan and Psychoslice... but I already know love anyway just like anyone else does.
arive nan
01-06-2011, 09:06 AM
I'm not saying that you haven't felt love altogether. What you feel is real and I'm not denying that. But when you say that what we talk about when we describe what it is like is hocus or something, it sounds like you are suggesting that what we have felt is not real.
It is a unique altered state of consciousness. The feelings people have before they've ever been in that state of consciousness are real. As are the feelings people have afterwards. But the feelings they have during that altered state are also real to them, and they are very unique, and though they are difficult to describe they are often compared to love because it feels somewhat like the same emotion but with a different quality.
I'm not saying that you haven't felt love altogether. What you feel is real and I'm not denying that. But when you say that what we talk about when we describe what it is like is hocus or something, it sounds like you are suggesting that what we have felt is not real.
It is a unique altered state of consciousness. The feelings people have before they've ever been in that state of consciousness are real. As are the feelings people have afterwards. But the feelings they have during that altered state are also real to them, and they are very unique, and though they are difficult to describe they are often compared to love because it feels somewhat like the same emotion but with a different quality.
The story of the ocean is an impressionistic metaphor, and the megre love you allot me is only what you assume to be, but I don't doubt you know love and find the metaphor eloquent... of course the love you feel is real.
It's all a crazy way of saying the love you feel is greater than the love people feel, and I guess this serves you in some way, but I make no such allusion, because when you get down to reality, the love anyone feels is exactly what love is.
psychoslice
01-06-2011, 09:35 AM
I don't blame the pointers, It's just that people imply I haven't experienced love compared to that they have experienced, maybe one day I will love as does Arive Nan and Psychoslice... but I already know love anyway just like anyone else does.
No I don't like the word love, all i know is that I have experienced an inner blissfulness that felt as if i was all that there IS, I don't really know what it was, but if there is such thing as love, well i would have to say that was it. After this experience I never had to try to find what i thought was love outside of myself, this realization was all that was needed, there's nothing else.
arive nan
01-06-2011, 10:47 AM
It's all a crazy way of saying the love you feel is greater than the love people feel
I didn't say greater, though. I say unique, and different. It's not exactly the same as other kinds of emotions... It's not even exactly the same as an emotion I think. I don't think other kinds of emotions are meager really. They're all unique and different. When I'm not having a euphoric mystical experience, which is... almost all the time except for maybe 3 hours out of my entire life in total, the love I feel is pretty much the same as anyone's is in a normal state of mind. I don't have to guess at what that's like because that is the same love I have most of the time. It can be overwhelming and powerful at times, but even then I can distinguish it from what comes with a mystical experience.
Once someone has been through that, they have felt that it is unique. It can be a dilemma that we can't try to honestly describe how it feels as a subjective phenomena without some deciding we are full of it because we use strongly positive words and descriptions. Because it does feel uniquely pleasant and real, if we're being honest. We can try to soften it by emphasizing that that is just what it feels like at the time, but it would not be honest to say that it doesn't feel amazing unlike anything else.
No I don't like the word love, all i know is that I have experienced an inner blissfulness that felt as if i was all that there IS, I don't really know what it was, but if there is such thing as love, well i would have to say that was it. After this experience I never had to try to find what i thought was love outside of myself, this realization was all that was needed, there's nothing else.
People don't have love apart from what is love. For me, it's fine as I recognize it in all people, and have never seen more in one than another.
I didn't say greater, though. I say unique, and different. It's not exactly the same as other kinds of emotions... It's not even exactly the same as an emotion I think. I don't think other kinds of emotions are meager really. They're all unique and different. When I'm not having a euphoric mystical experience, which is... almost all the time except for maybe 3 hours out of my entire life in total, the love I feel is pretty much the same as anyone's is in a normal state of mind. I don't have to guess at what that's like because that is the same love I have most of the time. It can be overwhelming and powerful at times, but even then I can distinguish it from what comes with a mystical experience.
Once someone has been through that, they have felt that it is unique. It can be a dilemma that we can't try to honestly describe how it feels as a subjective phenomena without some deciding we are full of it because we use strongly positive words and descriptions. Because it does feel uniquely pleasant and real, if we're being honest. We can try to soften it by emphasizing that that is just what it feels like at the time, but it would not be honest to say that it doesn't feel amazing unlike anything else.
I say unique too.
It's not necessary to describe it... and no one can, but everyone knows it anyway as directly as they love.
Imagine these 'you don't know real love' kind of insinuations that many forum goers state. I myself was almost bamboozled by that sort of thing, but luckily I didn't quite believe it... and now I realize fully that all these things just lead people astray and direct them to their fanciful minds and away from what already lies in the heart.
I love the ocean. I can feel a wonderous, sublime feeling when I am looking at it.
But if my child were drowning in the ocean, I would hate the ocean.
The love in my heart for my child is far greater than any love I have of the ocean.
And this is for most all people.
The love in the heart is stronger and greater than anything else.
Perspective
01-06-2011, 10:52 PM
The things that change are not our real life.
Within us there is another body, another beauty.
It belongs to that ray of Light which never changes.
We must discover how to mingle with It and become one
with that Unchanging thing.
We must realize and understand this treasure of Truth.
That is why we have come to the world.
Within your heart in a space no bigger than an atom,
God has placed the 18,000 universes.
- Bawa Muhaiyaddeen, Sufi Master
~
For meditation this is a beautiful expression!
Yet, in every-day real life - it is only 1/2 of the picture.
We are not just the eternal spirit... we are also the changing, goal-driven - never quite arriving ego/intellect/body.
I agree that we need to mingle & harmonize both.
"You never step twice in the same river."
Life is dynamic! Anything alive doesn't stay "unchanging." Live creatures move & change constantly. In fact, the more alive we are, the more we change & improve!
As above so below. Spirituality also is about change - progress! The only constant is change. Maybe that which changes is most real.
Mountain-Goat
02-06-2011, 12:28 AM
You might take it that 'not real' is simply an expression that means something to the person who said it.
Xan
And yet my enquiries have so far not yielded what "not real" means to that person.
Mountain-Goat
02-06-2011, 12:31 AM
I never could figure out what 'real' and 'illusion' were implying.
Here I experience a computer happening, so be it, what is 'real or 'illusion'... is it really there? Is it an illusion? I don't see how that makes any difference.
Then we get so stupid and say 'It's really an illusion.' Hehehehehe.
~smiles~ Or you get mystical replies like this.
You might take it that 'not real' is an expression that means something to the person who said it.
TzuJanLi
02-06-2011, 01:27 AM
Greetings..
~smiles~ Or you get mystical replies like this.
This why i understand 'isness', as in.. it is, what it is.. it's the stuff after 'is' that represents our interpretations, prejudices and conditioning.. the sky is____ we can agree on the word 'sky' without too much trouble, but.. shades of blue, degrees of pollution, types of clouds, who owns the airspace.. or, just point up, say sky and smile, or say "beyond sky" for a grander reference..
Be well..
Mountain-Goat
02-06-2011, 01:45 AM
Greetings..
This why i understand 'isness', as in.. it is, what it is.. it's the stuff after 'is' that represents our interpretations, prejudices and conditioning.. the sky is____ we can agree on the word 'sky' without too much trouble, but.. shades of blue, degrees of polution, types of clouds, who owns the airspace.. or, just point up, say sky and smile, or say "beyond sky" for a grander reference..
Be well..
I get that.
But gee, how difficult is it to define the word "real" in the context of "The things that change are not our real life."
How difficult is it to share this definition when someone asks for it, or offer some clarification?
How difficult is it to do this instead of avoiding the simple question and inferring the questioner has hangups?
And yet my enquiries have so far not yielded what "not real" means to that person.
You might take it that 'not real' is an expression that means something to the person who said it.
Which person, AC? And what difference does it make?
If you take the phrase 'not real' as some kind of threat to your identity, then a preoccupation with it would make sense. :tongue:
Xan
Or you get mystical replies like this.
Gee... if you think acknowledging that a word has meaning to someone that it doesn't have to you is mystical... how about this...
Illusion means, something isn't really what it appears to be.
Gem's computer appears to be a communication and information box with a picture window and some keys, that does magical things and only some wizard geeks know how it really works.
Your own body appears to be solid, but in each cell there is more space than matter, and even the so-called matter of atoms and what not are really just energy forms.
You appear to be a body-mind with a life story, but actually you are an eternal being of consciousness and energies that some people call the soul, just hanging out in this so-called material world for a little while.
Could this be what some people mean by 'not real' ? :rolleyes:
Xan
Gee... if you think acknowledging that a word has meaning to someone that it doesn't have to you is mystical... how about this...
Illusion means, something isn't really what it appears to be.
Gem's computer appears to be a box with a picture window, some keys, that does magical things and only some wizard geeks know how it really works.
Your own body appears to be solid, but in each cell there is more space than matter, and even the so-called matter of atoms and what not are really just energy forms.
Could this be what some people mean by 'not real' ? :rolleyes:
Xan
It appears to be solid if I hit my solid finger on it, and even to dream my dream man might hit a solid computer... and in another sense it is some flux in energy, so to say 'it is real' isn't a definition of what it is... to define what it 'really' is to unravel like yin/yang or something, however, there it is as it is.
Mountain-Goat
02-06-2011, 02:28 AM
You might take it that 'not real' is an expression that means something to the person who said it.
Which person, AC?
The person who made the statement, or in this case, because you have offered the quote,
I seek the answer from you, assuming if you are going to quote someone, you must have some idea about what the guy was meaning.
And what difference does it make?
It has nothing to do with differences.
It has to do with people hangin' out together and discussing things.
He claims impermanence is illusory, I wanted to know why he thinks that.
If you take the phrase 'not real' as some kind of threat to your identity, then a preoccupation with it would make sense. :tongue:
Xan
That's right, if.
But I like the loaded equation.
In order for me to be sensible I have to regard the phrase as a threat to my identity.
If I don't regard the phrase as a threat, I am not being sensible.
Nice one Xan.
Though to be precise, it's not about whether I am being sensible or not,
it's about what you regard as sensible or nonsensible behavior.
But the inference is there.
hmmm AC.... I don't go much for word games, thanks anyway.
Xan
Mountain-Goat
02-06-2011, 02:43 AM
Gee... if you think acknowledging that a word has meaning to someone that it doesn't have to you is mystical... how about this...
Illusion means, something isn't really what it appears to be.
Gem's computer appears to be a communication and information box with a picture window and some keys, that does magical things and only some wizard geeks know how it really works.
Your own body appears to be solid, but in each cell there is more space than matter, and even the so-called matter of atoms and what not are really just energy forms.
You appear to be a body-mind with a life story, but actually you are an eternal being of consciousness and energies that some people call the soul, just hanging out in this so-called material world for a little while.
Could this be what some people mean by 'not real' ? :rolleyes:
Xan
Gee, thanks for finally clarifying.
And I can now see where there is disagreement.
You appear to be a body-mind with a life story, but actually you are an eternal being of consciousness and energies that some people call the soul, just hanging out in this so-called material world for a little while.
I appear to be a body-mind because I actually am.
I also appear to be an eternal being of consciousness and energies because I actually am.
Some want to refer to their temporal life as an illusion, I do not.
My temporal life is part of my eternal life, there is no separation, just a difference in manifestation.
Paul Bailey in his book, Think of an Elephant, describes it simply. Paraphrased from memory.
There is the sky, it's made of various elements that we call atmosphere.
Contained within the sky are clouds.
Clouds are separate entities to the sky.
You have sky and in the sky are clouds. Two separate things.
But a cloud is simply condensed sky(atmosphere).
The sky is permanent, but clouds are impermanent.
Clouds are not illusions.
They are temporal and individualised manifestations of the permanent.
TzuJanLi
02-06-2011, 02:45 AM
Greetings..
Gee... if you think acknowledging that a word has meaning to someone that it doesn't have to you is mystical... how about this...
Illusion means, something isn't really what it appears to be.
Gem's computer appears to be a communication and information box with a picture window and some keys, that does magical things and only some wizard geeks know how it really works.
Your own body appears to be solid, but in each cell there is more space than matter, and even the so-called matter of atoms and what not are really just energy forms.
I sense the more relevant observation is that this 'space and energy' conspire to present a consistently real experience, with a verifiable history.. a more relevant observation is that energy presents a consistent body-mind as real, regardless of the objections of some claiming a contrary experience..
You appear to be a body-mind with a life story, but actually you are an eternal being of consciousness and energies that some people call the soul, just hanging out in this so-called material world for a little while.
Well, while you are schooling me on 'actuality', it is noteworthy that the 'energy' in your prior claim of "really just energy forms" has some interesting qualities.. one of those qualities is that nothing exists that is not 'energy' in one form or another.. so that, the "material world" and the "eternal being", are both energy.. different manifestations of the same 'stuff', i am BOTH..
Could this be what some people mean by 'not real' ? :rolleyes:
What i consider as 'not real' is that which cannot be independently substantiated by a neutral observer..
Xan
I am a unique manifestation of energetic frequencies, a body-mind with a life story, but.. I am also the eternal energy that animates this manifestation and all manifestations..
Be well..
Yep... We are all of it.
Xan
Chrysaetos
02-06-2011, 07:50 AM
Paul Bailey in his book, Think of an Elephant, describes it simply. Paraphrased from memory.
There is the sky, it's made of various elements that we call atmosphere.
Contained within the sky are clouds.
Clouds are separate entities to the sky.
You have sky and in the sky are clouds. Two separate things.
But a cloud is simply condensed sky(atmosphere).
The sky is permanent, but clouds are impermanent.
Clouds are not illusions.
They are temporal and individualised manifestations of the permanent.I like that..
I'm more not all these manifestations, and that's the difference it comes down to... I am not this body and I am not the mind and I am not the univerce I am not it all I'm not awareness and I'm not the life story and all that stuff on the list of 'I AM' is all the stuff which I am not.
So then... what's left?
Xan
Mountain-Goat
03-06-2011, 03:02 AM
I like that..
Yeah. It makes far more sense to me that the illusion theories that are around.
So then... what's left?
Xan
I think there's practical ways of turning away from the thought process, and allowing change to pass as it will, so all that's left really is this, just as it is.
There is no particular way this is, just as this computer is no thing in and of itself... so 'really is' and 'really are' only apply momentarily, leaving this just as it is.
Practical measures are not exersizes of imagination that rize from the desire for a personal preferance, but the facing of the truth as it is, so practical measures are exersizes that employ acceptance of this moment as it is... because that is all that's left.
I think there's practical ways of turning away from the thought process, [the facing of the truth as it is], and allowing change to pass as it will, so all that's left really is this, just as it is.
Yep... This...
Xan
Perspective
03-06-2011, 09:41 PM
:hello: Hello! Once we let everything that changes pass... we're dead, spiritually or physically.
That which changes is most lively & most real.
:hello: Hello! Once we let everything that changes pass... we're dead, spiritually or physically.
That which changes is most lively & most real.
I think there has to be a resistance so that the 'friction' can be felt, and things can take a long time to go through, but they keep moving. In the case where they get stopped it forms a block, and things like that are hidden from view by something I call shadows, which is why we work at 'bringing things to the surface'.
If that is the case, and in anybody at all there are these, then that's how it happens to be... and it isn't necessary to remove them to feel innerpeace, only to know them and accept that that's the way it is, but of course we do wish to remove them because they are 'hurt' and someone would remove a thorn in preference to leaving it there.
Firstly one has uncover it to see it, what it is, and in life there are pivotal moments when some hurt occurs but we hide away, like blips in the trail of memory, and when some new depth is reached it is often followed by a huge unraveling of thoughts surrounding a certain event, and it can be very emotional, tears might come streaming out perhaps, but one has to remain quietly vigilant and breath easy to break the habitual concealment pattern.
When it actually starts coming through it brings a lot of laughter... and healing the phsyche is very pleasurable, so much so that one would like to do it more and more and more... because in the famous words of Johnny Couger Melancamp 'Sometimes love don't feel like it should, you make it hurt so good'.
Once we let everything that changes pass... we're dead, spiritually or physically.
That which changes is most lively & most real.
Actually Perspective, that which is unchanging is the source and essence of life, growth and change... and in coming to know it we are more vitally alive.
Xan
TzuJanLi
04-06-2011, 03:22 AM
Greetings..
Actually Perspective, that which is unchanging is the source and essence of life, growth and change... and in coming to know it we are more vitally alive.
Xan
There is no unchanging condition, even the imagination that conjures the belief changes.. the believers of "That Unchangable thing" can only petition the imagination for support, since no evidence exists in reality..
Be well..
There is no unchanging condition, even the imagination that conjures the belief changes.. the believers of "That Unchangable thing" can only petition the imagination for support, since no evidence exists in reality..
Gee, Bob... Just because you haven't yet recognized the unchanging essence (which is not a 'condition' by the way) doesn't mean you have to get all defensive and stuff... :wink:
blessings
Xan
p.s. I just read in another thread what you said about 'still mind'. Isn't the stillness unchanging?
X.
Greetings..
There is no unchanging condition, even the imagination that conjures the belief changes.. the believers of "That Unchangable thing" can only petition the imagination for support, since no evidence exists in reality..
Be well..
I agree that there is no 'unchanging' and change is evidently presented, for knowing impermanance is instrumental to acceptance in life ... to know there is nothing which can be held in the hands and everything is like water.
TzuJanLi
04-06-2011, 06:13 AM
Greetings..
Gee, Bob... Just because you haven't yet recognized the unchanging essence (which is not a 'condition' by the way) doesn't mean you have to get all defensive and stuff... :wink:
blessings
Xan
p.s. I just read in another thread what you said about 'still mind'. Isn't the stillness unchanging?
X.
If only one thing changes, all things change in relation to it.. what was active becomes still, but the observation of change changes its reference..
Be well..
Elijah
04-06-2011, 09:55 AM
Dzogchen Primer Issue #3
Rigpa is your unchanging state of Being. It has always been perfect and requires no liberation. This is who you are and have always been. This doesn't change. You don't suddenly wake up to this truth. You are always this truth. You haven't become lost in suffering and samsara. Since that is the case, there is then nothing the matter. But it doesn't feel perfect and blissful in this moment, how could that be? Let me try to explain: Your current awareness is Rigpa already. Thoughts, feelings and perceptions arise in Rigpa continuously. As such, we can say the mind arises in Rigpa. Rigpa is the context or space that everything arises within. The cognizant quality is always uniquely 100% belonging to Rigpa. Rigpa is the only "knower" of experience. Everything else is what is known.
Imagine a large crystal ball in which bubbles appear and disappear within. Your Awareness as Rigpa is the crystal ball. The thoughts, feelings and sensations are the bubbles arising and disappearing within the sphere spontaneously. Your sense of Being is you being the crystal sphere. The crystal ball is unchanging at all times but these various appearances just arise as experiences. This is your energy appearing as those variously appearing bubbles within. There is a particular bubble that arises known as the sense of self or me. It has a complete story of identity made up of many thoughts and feelings all associated with it, like a cluster of bubbles. This "me" complex can become quite strong and dominant as the central experience. It is the energy of mind manifesting as the sense of being a defined person. This is the experience of limited ego existence in the world of samsara. This who we think we are. This dream-like self entity occupies our entire field of consciousness. But at no time is this a "real" person or being. It is just a strong experience of subjectivity or self, a projection of mind, a dreamed self.
If we approach practice from the view of improving this self (as me), to become more aware... we are just becoming more enmeshed in the story of me. Any effort, mental or physical only reinforces the illusion that this self can become enlightened, but it can't. It is a thought-complex floating in this sphere or crystal ball of Clear Light Awareness. You, your true and only Self-Being is the unchanging Clear Light Sphere of Awareness not its contents. So, you are still you whether all of those internal arisings are powerfully present or not.
The ego-self does not come to realize something or have an insight through practice or study that leads to Rigpa. Nothing leads to Rigpa. Since you are already Rigpa, you cannot become more of Rigpa. Nothing needs to be changed or improved in your current state of unchanging Rigpa, you are already perfect. What does occur is a sudden flash of Self-Recognition that has nothing to with thinking mind or me-conscioiusness. The sphere of Awareness, the space of Being in which all these thoughts, ego and feelings arise, suddenly notices Itself. This is what is called Yeshe or Wisdom/Gnosis. The "me" does not have a realization. This flash of true identity is completely beyond the mind and ego-consciousness. That which becomes a follower of Dzogchen or Buddhism is this ego-self. That which reads, studies and practices a path is the ego-self in an effort to find liberation and enlightenment. But in Self-Recognition, all of the practices and study are completely meaningless as that entity never attains its goal... but is actually annihiliated in that flash of Self-Recognition. A person who has no training and has been extremely evil has the same chance of this flash or Self-Recognition occuring as one who has studied and practiced with great accumulation of virtue for many years! The evil and ignorant qualities only pertain to the ego-self. Just as the virtuous qualities and Dharma experienced practitioner is also just the ego-self. Self Recognition is beyond the condition of the ego-self and has nothing to do with the spirtual development story of "me". To Rigpa virtue and vice are identical...just equal reflections in the mirror. The self you think you are is also just a reflection in the mirror of Rigpa.
Perhaps you now have gained a glimpse why Dzogchen is not dependent on study or practice. That is because the one who does the studying and practice is not the one who Self-Recognizes! Only Rigpa flashes on Rigpa! The Realization does not occur to the subjective self... the identity who you think you are! You don't realize Rigpa. You never become enlightened! Only Rigpa is in the Enlightened state and you can never become Rigpa! That's because you are already Rigpa, experiencing the sensation of being the ego-self looking for Rigpa! That is completely the reverse of your current viewpoint within the dream of being this "me". That's the shift that occurs suddenly in perception. Instead of being the me looking for Rigpa, you suddenly are in the perspective of Rigpa noticing the sense of me as just an experience...not an identity. That's transmission.
The "Direct Introduction" to Rigpa is this transmission. Rigpa is recognizing Itself. In this case the master is like a mirror and the student's Rigpa notices Itself in the mirror of the Rigpa of the Guru. This is real meaning of Guru yoga. A shift occurs from there being an identity of relative self, our ordinary me with its history and story, to a Recognition of true Identity as Rigpa. But the recognition is Rigpa's alone! It does not occur to or in the mind. So even such a nice practice as "resting in Awareness", when done as a "practice" is just more ego maneuvering... because there is the ego who is trying to rest in Awareness...just more dualism. Now Rigpa just being Rigpa... is more to the point. But at no time can there be someone who rests in Rigpa! Who could this one resting in Rigpa be, if the Being is already Rigpa?
For those who are following this closely you may have been led down an inescapable path of Direct Introduction. This discussion was not intended to be "about" a Direct Introduction" but to actually be a "Direct Introduction".
If you intellectualize this ... the opportunity for the flash to occur fades. Just recognize your current awareness to be the cognizant Space of your experience, unchanged by all arisings, yet not separate from them: Rigpa.
TzuJanLi
04-06-2011, 03:31 PM
Greetings..
‘Self’ is the vehicle through which diversity is manifested into experience.. self exists in the same way as the ‘wind’ exists, as its effect on the environment of existence.. each ‘mind-body-consciousness’ relationship is physically unique, and each is unique in its personal history, beliefs, understandings, and its effects on the interactive environment. There are simply no identical humans, not in their histories, their beliefs, or their physical manifestation. The ‘self’ exists as a unique collection of beliefs, conditioning, genetic inclinations, memories of experiences, and intentions, which I will simply reference as ‘self’. This ‘self’ exists in its private mental landscape, where it counsels the mind’s operation of its awareness and the operation of its physical interaction with the environment of its existence.
‘Self’ establishes its identity within its environment to secure a relationship with other selfs, which are observably uniquely identifiable. ‘Self’ is the evidence of self-awareness that requires a ‘self’ to operate its awareness. ‘Self’ is both temporary and eternal, temporary as a physical reference for its physical experience, and eternal as ‘that’ which experiences its own existence (self-awareness). Referencing our physical experience and our necessary references to our physical environment, the temporary ‘self’ is seen to exist and adapt to the changes of its interconnected environment from within the sanctity of its private internal mindscape.
More tangible, though, the self is evident in its relationships with Life, and other body-minds.. the way you see the silhouette of a certain ‘self’ moving only the way that self does, and you ‘know’.. or the symphony of emotions only a certain ‘self’ has cultivated through a life of compassion and clarity, an identifiable ‘look’ in the eyes, or tone in the voice, a self is known.
There is no benefit to the discussions of self or no-self, or Buddha vs. Tao, there is only the pure experience of Living it.. clearing-out the ideologies, no matter what they are, making space for Life to happen..
Be well..
Perspective
04-06-2011, 05:09 PM
I think there has to be a resistance so that the 'friction' can be felt, and things can take a long time to go through, but they keep moving. In the case where they get stopped it forms a block, and things like that are hidden from view by something I call shadows, which is why we work at 'bringing things to the surface'.
If that is the case, and in anybody at all there are these, then that's how it happens to be... and it isn't necessary to remove them to feel innerpeace, only to know them and accept that that's the way it is, but of course we do wish to remove them because they are 'hurt' and someone would remove a thorn in preference to leaving it there.
Firstly one has uncover it to see it, what it is, and in life there are pivotal moments when some hurt occurs but we hide away, like blips in the trail of memory, and when some new depth is reached it is often followed by a huge unraveling of thoughts surrounding a certain event, and it can be very emotional, tears might come streaming out perhaps, but one has to remain quietly vigilant and breath easy to break the habitual concealment pattern.
When it actually starts coming through it brings a lot of laughter... and healing the phsyche is very pleasurable, so much so that one would like to do it more and more and more... because in the famous words of Johnny Couger Melancamp 'Sometimes love don't feel like it should, you make it hurt so good'.Hi Gem! :hug3:
We're on the same page... or is it radio station? I was just listening to that song & thought about how some pain is good & actually needed. (Sigh)
I sure can relate with "bringing things to the surface"! It's like I'm in a raging storm at sea & I have to remember that eventually the sea will calm, the clouds will dissipate & the sun will shine again.
Gee, Bob... Just because you haven't yet recognized the unchanging essence (which is not a 'condition' by the way) doesn't mean you have to get all defensive and stuff... :wink:
blessings
Xan Are you sure that wasn't "cursing" instead of blessings, Xan? :wink:
p.s. I just read in another thread what you said about 'still mind'. Isn't the stillness unchanging?Vibrant Divine love is felt in the "whisperings of the spirit" - so only when we quiet ourselves down in as much "stillness" as we can. Yet, even when we are most still, we are never completely still because our heart continues beating & we continue breathing life in & out... so is it with spiritual love we sense. We are most alive spiritually when we are progressing through positive change.
What's more real: an "unchanging" toy stuffed dog... or a changing live active puppy?
...an "unchanging" manikin doll... or a changing live person?
We are ever changing, both spiritually & physically & that's what make us most real!
Squatchit
04-06-2011, 05:28 PM
Just because you haven't yet ...
Although I've had nothing to do with this thread....and I also know Tzu can speak for himself...the above makes my blood boil.
And if you next tell me that 'just because I haven't yet experienced unconditional love and compassion' is why I responded the way I did, then I will turn you into a toad.
DulcePoetica
04-06-2011, 06:06 PM
One unchanging thing I have observed is the way enlightened minds seem to rather enjoy the sport of debunking each other.
Squatchit
04-06-2011, 06:20 PM
One unchanging thing I have observed is the way enlightened minds seem to rather enjoy the sport of debunking each other.
So who do you determine are 'enlightened minds' DP? I'm curious. :smile:
DulcePoetica
04-06-2011, 06:44 PM
Hehe. I guess it all is a matter of perspective, ey? Sometimes it seems like everyone on SF is talking about getting to exact same place but arguing over which highway will have the least traffic or the best scenery or the fewest stop signs.
Squatchit
04-06-2011, 07:01 PM
Hehe. I guess it all is a matter of perspective, ey? Sometimes it seems like everyone on SF is talking about getting to exact same place but arguing over which highway will have the least traffic or the best scenery or the fewest stop signs.
OK. So you are evading my question... and are changing the subject to highways and byways.:wink:
DulcePoetica
04-06-2011, 07:42 PM
Oh, it was a serious question? I'm not going to name names! There are obviously numerous highly intelligent people on here discussing wonderful and enlightened concepts as if they are adversaries. I gain insight from every post and find it both charming and amusing the way each of us (myself included) thinks our way is the wisest.
The best way to know something is to see it from multiple points of view, I'm sorry it just tickles me when a collective of great minds, specifically intending to offer more clarity, offers what they see from their respective vantage points and the dialogue plays out as if it is an argument. C'mon, can you not see the irony??
sound
04-06-2011, 09:10 PM
Although I've had nothing to do with this thread....and I also know Tzu can speak for himself...the above makes my blood boil.
And if you next tell me that 'just because I haven't yet experienced unconditional love and compassion' is why I responded the way I did, then I will turn you into a toad.
hahaha well that would certainly prove that we are not Unchanging Things :D
psychoslice
04-06-2011, 09:41 PM
One unchanging thing I have observed is the way enlightened minds seem to rather enjoy the sport of debunking each other.
It only seems that they are debunking each other by the ego mind that is watching, of course i am talking about the truly Enlightened mind, but also the Enlightened mind likes to play with the other Enlightened mind, the difference is that they know that they are just playing.
sound
04-06-2011, 10:30 PM
It only seems that they are debunking each other by the ego mind that is watching, of course i am talking about the truly Enlightened mind, but also the Enlightened mind likes to play with the other Enlightened mind, the difference is that they know that they are just playing.
Well if it works for the enlightened ones it may work for me next time i get a warning from the mods psychoslice lol... I will say something like 'Please understand, i was just playing in my own enlightened little way ... i wasnt being offensive ... you must be coming from ego mind if you didnt realize that moderator' :D only playing PS :)
So who do you determine are 'enlightened minds' DP? I'm curious. :smile:
They're pretending.
Although I've had nothing to do with this thread....and I also know Tzu can speak for himself...the above makes my blood boil.
And if you next tell me that 'just because I haven't yet experienced unconditional love and compassion' is why I responded the way I did, then I will turn you into a toad.
You're right. 'Haven't yet' is completely misleading.
The stillness is unchanging, isn't it?
If only one thing changes, all things change in relation to it.. what was active becomes still, but the observation of change changes its reference..
Ah yes, but the stillness isn't a 'thing... being formless.
Xan
Perspective: Are you sure that wasn't "cursing" instead of blessings, Xan? :wink:
Well, disagreement isn't cursing, is it now? In all honesty I don't feel anger or animosity toward Tzu, but an opportunity to express myself more clearly.
Vibrant Divine love is felt in the "whisperings of the spirit" - so only when we quiet ourselves down in as much "stillness" as we can. Yet, even when we are most still, we are never completely still because our heart continues beating & we continue breathing life in & out... so is it with spiritual love we sense. We are most alive spiritually when we are progressing through positive change.
Yes it's true, Perspective, that energies are always moving in our bodies and minds and we feel good in the changes of our spiritual progress.
But the stillness I'm talking about is beyond the mind and the body, in the non-physical, non-mental, non-emotional aspect of ourselves that we call spirit.
This stillness is in the core of our being whether we are quietly breathing or thinking and doing things. In our spiritual awakening we may come to be aware in this unboundaried silence as our pure unchanging essence.
In fact, I'm sure most people experience this at times but don't pay attention to it because it seems like nothing interesting is happening. But in my experience life gets even more lively and full of love by being conscious in This... silent beingness.
This is the ocean of pure existence in which we swim, without knowing.
Xan
Although I've had nothing to do with this thread....and I also know Tzu can speak for himself...the above makes my blood boil.
And if you next tell me that 'just because I haven't yet experienced unconditional love and compassion' is why I responded the way I did, then I will turn you into a toad.
Yep blood boiling can be annoying. But Sarah, I don't recall ever telling you that you haven't yet experienced unconditional love and compassion, have I?
And... what if there are amazing subtle experiences you haven't yet had? Wouldn't that be good news? That there are unknown discoveries in consciousness and love available to you?
( Being a toad wouldn't be so bad I guess. :rolleyes: )
Xan
Dzogchen Primer Issue #3
Rigpa is your unchanging state of Being. It has always been perfect and requires no liberation. This is who you are and have always been. This doesn't change.... Your current awareness is Rigpa already. Thoughts, feelings and perceptions arise in Rigpa continuously.
As such, we can say the mind arises in Rigpa. Rigpa is the context or space that everything arises within. The cognizant quality is always uniquely 100% belonging to Rigpa. Rigpa is the only "knower" of experience. Everything else is what is known.
Yep... Tibetan Buddhist Dzogchen teaching describes it this way. 'Rigpa' is a Tibetan word that means... the unboundaried open space of awareness in which all changing things are experienced, but itself is unchanging. Rigpa also means 'mind essence' - the core of mind/consciousness, empty of thought.
Another way of saying this is, consciousness is like the movie screen on which reality is continuously playing. Through a slight shift of awareness we may recognize the empty screen without the movie... the still consciousness that we are, behind all the surface activity.
Xan
Toad Me!
(cute photo of a frog here)
I luv's um!
TzuJanLi
05-06-2011, 04:12 PM
Greetings..
Ah yes, but the stillness isn't a 'thing... being formless.
Xan
Stillness is a quality you can choose to manifest, or not.. your reference to 'stillness' as a reply to the quote you cited is irrelevant..
There are eternity and infinity as the playground of our existence, but.. during the briefest of intervals during which we are physically manifested, some people cannot 'be here now', they are attached to notions 'about' their unmanifested existence..
Be well..
Bob... Yes quietness is also a quality you can manifest, but this shows we are not talking about the same thing.... not at all. The silence I'm pointing toward is continuous un-manifest awareness even while active in this world... the eternal Now.
Xan
Awareness
Awareness is forever here,
In which mind and sensations appear.
Its presence is fundamental,
Absolute not incremental.
Choiceless, requiring no effort,
The seer of all that's thought.
All that our senses detect,
On this conscious 'screen' are decked.
Completely still without a sound,
Of every experience the 'ground'.
Perfectly peaceful under no duress,
Ever silent and utterly motionless.
Omnipresent, of consciousness the ocean.
Manifestation is This in motion.
All 'things' are forms of energy,
Arising from Its tranquility.
Omniscient, for in It every thing exists,
Of which not one is ever 'missed'.
Conscious and still, ever aware
Of movements which It can compare …
Omnipotent, back into which all things subside,
Stillness is the terminus of every 'ride'.
No thing can possibly affect It,
For they all appear, exist and exit.
Pure, for It manifestation cannot stain.
Pristine, for degradation It cannot feign.
Radiant, for by Its wondrous light,
The world appears to our mind's sight.
- Colin Drake
TzuJanLi
05-06-2011, 04:51 PM
Greetings..
Bob... Yes quietness is also a quality you can manifest, but this shows we are not talking about the same thing.... not at all. The silence I'm pointing toward is continuous un-manifest awareness even while active in this world... the eternal Now.
Xan
We differ.. you prefer flowery words, imaginary mindscapes, juxtaposing words and meanings to embellish your imaginary reality.. i prefer the silence itself, without the 'what it is' talk.. for all of the 'talk', Life continues regardless of the chatter, and silence sees it happening.. people telling others 'what it is' are just distractions from actually experiencing the silence, and the clarity it reveals..
Be well..
Awareness
Awareness is forever here,
In which mind and sensations appear.
Its presence is fundamental,
Absolute not incremental.
Choiceless, requiring no effort,
The seer of all that's thought.
All that our senses detect,
On this conscious 'screen' are decked.
Completely still without a sound,
Of every experience the 'ground'.
Perfectly peaceful under no duress,
Ever silent and utterly motionless.
Omnipresent, of consciousness the ocean.
Manifestation is This in motion.
All 'things' are forms of energy,
Arising from Its tranquility.
Omniscient, for in It every thing exists,
Of which not one is ever 'missed'.
Conscious and still, ever aware
Of movements which It can compare …
Omnipotent, back into which all things subside,
Stillness is the terminus of every 'ride'.
No thing can possibly affect It,
For they all appear, exist and exit.
Pure, for It manifestation cannot stain.
Pristine, for degradation It cannot feign.
Radiant, for by Its wondrous light,
The world appears to our mind's sight.
- Colin Drake
That's awesome.
We differ.. you prefer flowery words, imaginary mindscapes, juxtaposing words and meanings to embellish your imaginary reality.. i prefer the silence itself, without the 'what it is' talk.. for all of the 'talk', Life continues regardless of the chatter, and silence sees it happening.. people telling others 'what it is' are just distractions from actually experiencing the silence, and the clarity it reveals..
See what I meant some days ago? Why this need to negate how other people express themselves, Bob?
I would prefer for you to stay on topic... becoming aware in the unchanging silent beingness that is our essence.
Xan
TzuJanLi
05-06-2011, 05:38 PM
Greetings..
See what I meant some days ago? Why this need to negate how other people express themselves, Bob?
Xan
We are complicit in negating each other's expressions, Xan, you are similarly inclined.. i expressed what i understand as our fundamental difference, i expressed it honestly and clearly.. and, i am open to a rebuttal, facts supporting your beliefs..
Be well..
TzuJanLi
05-06-2011, 05:41 PM
Greetings..
See what I meant some days ago? Why this need to negate how other people express themselves, Bob?
I would prefer for you to stay on topic... becoming aware in the unchanging silent beingness that is our essence.
Xan
My post was spot-on, Xan, spot-on.. examine your 'preferences'..
Be well..
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