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Lynn
23-05-2011, 05:30 PM
When I think of the word “Belief” I am transported back to the Greek teachings of Plato, and Socrates, Aristotle and other’s, for the idea of knowledge based ideas and trains of thinking. Where the idea of science and religion merged in what is Metaphysics. The Mind, Body and Soul being of one.

Growing up to believe in God and in Jesus the Son of God and he being our Savior and never finding the answers I sought to WHY I was made so very different , I came to loose that belief. What I know now though what I lost was not belief but TRUST of what was RIGHT for me as an individual that is connected to a greater whole.


We grow up being told we are individuals but most times being told what our beliefs are to be so does not make us part of a greater whole ?


Do we need to trust our beliefs to have them ?



Lynn

astroboy
23-05-2011, 05:41 PM
There are universally accepted beliefs present in all religions. They form the basis of any human being's spiritual progress. They need to be suppressed. I may call them the Five Evils – Kam (Lust), Krodh (Rage), Lobh (Greed), Moh (Attachment) and Ahankar (Ego).

Greenslade
24-05-2011, 12:43 PM
I believe the Universe shows us what we need to see. That belief is born not of books and the words of the gurus but from what I see around me. It's not a matter of what I want to believe in or choose to believe in, it's simply what happens. The problems start when people build sand-bagged entrenchments with those beliefs and try to make the rest of the Universe believe they are the Ultimate Truth. What they should be doing is looking at their own beliefs in relation to everyone else's, but then that's my beliefs and don't work for everyone.

Perhaps if we let go of beliefs we might see a very different Universe. Beliefs can be like sunglasses, cutting out what you don't want to see and shielding your eyes. Perhaps if we all let go of beliefs and saw each others' perspectives, how would that change the Universe? And these forums :-)?????

Perspective
24-05-2011, 07:34 PM
There are universally accepted beliefs present in all religions. They form the basis of any human being's spiritual progress. They need to be suppressed. I may call them the Five Evils – Kam (Lust), Krodh (Rage), Lobh (Greed), Moh (Attachment) and Ahankar (Ego).Interesting, thanks for sharing those insights. :smile:
So... lust, rage, greed, attachment & ego.
It seems that attachment & ego would encompass lust rage & greed, right?

I've heard that evil is the consistent denial or avoidance of natural pain.
Temptation is a normal part of life... we're not born with perfect thinking... & we learn a lot of incorrect thought patterns...
Denying that we have temptation is in a way, evil. I used to always think that if you even think it you're evil... Jesus taught something like that... except he didn't call thoughts "evil" - I think he was trying to teach the power of thoughts & that they can create our reality.

Yet, with all of the desires of our hearts... when we want the highest best... then we'll be willing to endure pain for the greater good. IE, If we feel anger... as Aristotle said, we'll learn to be angry at the right time for the right reason at the right person, instead of acting impulsively as children do.

Lynn
24-05-2011, 09:48 PM
Perhaps if we let go of beliefs we might see a very different Universe. Beliefs can be like sunglasses, cutting out what you don't want to see and shielding your eyes. Perhaps if we all let go of beliefs and saw each others' perspectives, how would that change the Universe? And these forums :-)?????


I more am along the lines of maybe not letting go of our beliefs but more being open to embrace and learn from the beleifs of other's. Its fine to have a core beileif and grow outwards from there I think.

For so many year's I fought against the Family Church and rebelled from it fully. To go down a very dark path in life. ( knowing full well for me it was the RIGHT path ). To come full circle at 46 year's old when I started to re examine what I beleived in as the kids I have started to ask quesitons on God and other faiths. SO I was like just becasue I do not walk with God does not give me the place to say to me kids ye have to follow the path I do. I had to open up to embracing many things then.

What I came to find was the wonders of GOOD quality shows and docudrama's on TV and Vidio that explored Religion and general beleifs from a very general view without being preachy. To show them what might fit to them individually. To find that opened me as well to the place I am at now. I do not walk the path with God, but I do not dismiss God like I once did. More I embrace that I can not prove or disprove God or any faith, so I do not feel I have to right to denouce it in any way.

I embrace there is something to learn from all faiths and beleifs if one can OPEN the ears to listen and close the mouth to speak for a time.

I did that one day with a group that came to the door of me home. I called the kids in and one pointed out to me that there were "Woman" in the Bible too as me daughter does not have a Biblical name like the boys. I pointed out back that ancestry picked her first name but her second was a name from the Bible. That opened the door for conversation on whom they were in the Bible. I learned something that day that I might well have heard many moon's ago but it was nice to learn.

I too another time went running upstairs to fine a book of faith ( that is well book marked " but not one I follow to bring it to the door, again as I understood their beleifs some I was respected even not following the path of God. I could embrace what they followed. They now no longer knock on me door.....but if I am sitting outside will stop and discuss things with me.

We can all learn to embrace beleiefs and not judge them so harshly like we do it we take out the need to be right and preach.

Lynn

Xan
25-05-2011, 03:54 AM
I don't really believe in beliefs, which are just ideas in the mind that we take to be 'true' whether they are or not.

Instead I go by my own direct experiencing and knowing, beyond the mind.


Xan

psychoslice
25-05-2011, 04:01 AM
Beliefs are for the child and the ignorant, when we grow spiritually we drop all beliefs, truth is now seen in all, truth is forever flowing, you can't dam it up and think that you can hold it there, your so call truth will only become stagnant, useless, this is what many do with their scriptures, they believe that they hold all the truth, how can you hold the truth on manuscripts thousands of years old, the truth is always here, NOW.

Jyotir
26-05-2011, 05:53 AM
Hi Lynn,

My view is that:

Beliefs are simply expedients subject to revision according to evolutionary: necessity, conscious awareness and capacity.

Trust could be found in the accumulated experience as a result of enacting belief.

Imo, seekers make a mistake when they condemn 'belief' itself.
Belief is necessary. If one looks closely at life, nothing would be possible without belief - except paralysis. I actually believe (haha) it is fairly impossible to not have beliefs.

Beliefs are simply identifications with different aspects of Consciousness leading to experience, so we need to choose beliefs wisely and be able to adapt and change with experience as we grow, using and discarding beliefs if necessary. Discrimination and testing in real life is still required. It is the unexamined belief, arbitrary imposition of belief, the persistent application of obsolete belief, the misalignment of belief and practice, or the misapplication of practice which can be problems - not belief itself.

When people say, "I don't have beliefs", they don't realize - that itself is a belief - and for seekers a possibly insidious one, because it often prevents (by suppression) the examination of experience resulting from beliefs which have not been recognized and acknowledged as informing practice/action. Functionally contrary to the professed "belief" of "no belief" as liberating - it is a kind of self-deception or limitation that frequently masks seriously flawed beliefs that for one reason or another - often negative associations from past experience - represent some resistance to transformation.


~ J

Greenslade
26-05-2011, 12:16 PM
Hi Lynn

I'm intrigued by the picture for your avatar, if you don't mind me asking where it is?

Religion never worked for me, it always felt 'empty' somehow and lacking in substance. My aunt was a frail old lady that lived a few miles off the beaten track, and she was very religious. She would struggle up a long, high hill with shopping on foot while the church elders passed her in their cars. Call it judgement (I was far less Spiritual then) but I didn't want to be like them. I believe the Universe is busily showing us what We Are, and what We Are Not. To this day I go to the assistance of little old ladies - and ladies in general. Back then I was looking for answers and Christianity was decidedly not the Path for me. I read the Tao Te Ching, then the Bhagavad Gita and pretty much everything else I could get my hands on, but little seemed to work. Still this gnawing inside, the looking for the answer to a single question. If there was a single point where I could see a definite turning pint, it was the day I joined one of the old MSN forums. I listened, learned and asked stupid questions. There were people on there that I felt so comfortable with and familiar with, like old friends I had never known before. In fact, one of them had energies very similar to yourself - according to my perception anyway. Sometimes I feel energies coming from people's words on these pages, whether it's just my perception or something else, I don't question.

My beliefs became fluid, not to the point where they were written in stone but to the point where they would change depending on what the Universe chose to show me. Now I often wonder if I have beliefs at all, or perhaps they are merely observations while being in the Allegory of Plato's Cave. Jyotir might make something of that :-) The words of the gurus floated away as they made less sense, as more and more I needed to make my own sense of the Universe and not someone else's. A wise man once said to me "Find your own truth. Find what resonates with you and discard the rest because it is not your own." That I did, and it freed me. Like you, I can see something in so many religions and belief systems. Sharing is always good and every belief system has something there for everyone, but none are the ultimate.

What I see is a rich tapestry, with beliefs of every colour and creed woven into that tapestry. I will talk about God and Christianity even though I am a follower of neither, but then in a beautiful irony I can see how not believing on God is doing God's work :-) Sometimes I will challenge people's beliefs, not to gainsay them but to find out more. Spirituality for me is everywhere and in everyone, and even in the so-called stupid questions of the Newbies :-) If we are indeed One as so many seem to purport on these forums then we should embrace their beliefs as much as our own. Anything else is masochism. if we are very much individuals, then seeing another's beliefs in relationship to our own can give us a refreshing perspective sometimes and stop our own from becoming stagnant. For me Spirituality isn't in the books containing the words of the gurus but in the people around me, even if that means they are not Spiritual.

Gem
26-05-2011, 02:02 PM
The belief is two things... what you see and what you assume.

The things people believe about themselves form self worth, or 'worthiness'.

Religious beliefs are like theories, they aren't actually observed events, but what one experiences is what they really do believe... and maybe it's vice/versa there too.

astroboy
29-05-2011, 08:17 AM
Interesting, thanks for sharing those insights. :smile:
So... lust, rage, greed, attachment & ego.

Denying that we have temptation is in a way, evil. I used to always think that if you even think it you're evil... Jesus taught something like that... except he didn't call thoughts "evil" - I think he was trying to teach the power of thoughts & that they can create our reality.

Yet, with all of the desires of our hearts... when we want the highest best... then we'll be willing to endure pain for the greater good. IE, If we feel anger... as Aristotle said, we'll learn to be angry at the right time for the right reason at the right person, instead of acting impulsively as children do.

Good thinking, Perspective.
Hats off to you.

The roots of all religions are to be found in the attempt of man, from age to age, to solve this mystery of duality: life and death, light and darkness, truth and untruth, opulence and poverty. Dissatisfied with his surroundings, he begins the eternal search anew and turns to the why and wherefore of things.

St. Augustine, once sitting on the seashore with his great work 'De Trinitate,' saw a child taking the sea water into a shell and pouring it into a hole he had made in the sand. Asked what he was doing, the child naively replied that he was trying to empty the ocean. The great sage explained to him the futility of all his endeavours, since it was an impossibility. Exactly the same is the position in the case of God-knowledge, for He, the Infinite, cannot be known by the finite individual trying to grasp Him at the level of the intellect.

Perspective
29-05-2011, 02:19 PM
Good thinking, Perspective.
Hats off to you.

The roots of all religions are to be found in the attempt of man, from age to age, to solve this mystery of duality: life and death, light and darkness, truth and untruth, opulence and poverty. Dissatisfied with his surroundings, he begins the eternal search anew and turns to the why and wherefore of things.

St. Augustine, once sitting on the seashore with his great work 'De Trinitate,' saw a child taking the sea water into a shell and pouring it into a hole he had made in the sand. Asked what he was doing, the child naively replied that he was trying to empty the ocean. The great sage explained to him the futility of all his endeavours, since it was an impossibility. Exactly the same is the position in the case of God-knowledge, for He, the Infinite, cannot be known by the finite individual trying to grasp Him at the level of the intellect.Thanks, Astroboy. :smile:
Good analogy. What you wrote is at the heart of spirituality - harmonizing the intellect & "ego" with the intuitive higher self. Most people, myself included, don't like that empty feeling, which is why we keep busy or noise going. Yet, God may be in the still "void" as I've heard.

When I've thought & done all I can about something, but am still not sure what to do next... then if I kindof "let it go" (from my ego/intellect) - only then, can my intuitive self connect & figure out the best step or answer. People like Einstein did this too... sometimes they'd "sleep on it" & get their brilliant idea.

I was reading how grace is like serendipity - finding goodness not sought after. It's realizing, not denying God's (or Spiritual) hand in our lives. Grace/Spiritual help is always there - it's just a question of acknowleding it. I think, as we acknowledge spiritual help more, we are more benefited by it & personal revelation. Yet, to properly interpret spiritual experiences, we need our intellect. Discerning between our ego's thoughts & our higher self's thoughts isn't easy. Our higher self would guide us to only constructive thought/action.

How do you discern the difference between ego/intellectual thoughts & higher self/spiritual thoughts?

astroboy
29-05-2011, 03:36 PM
Thanks, Astroboy. :smile:
I was reading how grace is like serendipity - finding goodness not sought after. It's realizing, not denying God's (or Spiritual) hand in our lives. Grace/Spiritual help is always there - it's just a question of acknowleding it. I think, as we acknowledge spiritual help more, we are more benefited by it & personal revelation. Yet, to properly interpret spiritual experiences, we need our intellect. Discerning between our ego's thoughts & our higher self's thoughts isn't easy. Our higher self would guide us to only constructive thought/action.

How do you discern the difference between ego/intellectual thoughts & higher self/spiritual thoughts?

I feel alive reading your explanation. Because we live in the HERE and NOW which is reality. Anything other than H&N is just imagination, planning and memory recall. But whatever we can recall - it can only be done NOW.

On the other hand, Soul comes from the timeless region like the VOID you stated. All the physical universes are placed within this void. Matter, Space and Time only exist in the visible parts. The Void is void of MST. It is inexpressible by the intellect.
How can a mute tell you the sweetness of the candy?

northstar
29-05-2011, 04:16 PM
my, i so dislike that word, so much baggage... so i twisted the semantics to find something i could comfortably work with... my understandings at this time... But... i did not remove the ties... and the tie words were faith and 'trust'... yes trust... big word in my life, as i usually found so little...

so, to trust these experiences with my demi-god took a long time... and sometimes i just had to say 'ok... lets see how it plays out' (faith) and i've come to trust the wisdom of my guardian... and as time has wound around the colours and flavours have become quite evident... and it has all played out, just as she said... and i trrrrrr... i trrrrrr... i trust her wisdom...

Xan
30-05-2011, 04:10 AM
Perspective: Most people, myself included, don't like that empty feeling, which is why we keep busy or noise going. Yet, God may be in the still "void" as I've heard.

Perspective... Yes, we are so accustomed to the busyness of our thoughts, emotions and sensations that the quietness of our true nature is uncomfortable... but only at first.

Once you get used to it you realize it is also known as Peace... and that it is not really empty but full of the whole unboundaried presence, and of pure love itself.


How do you discern the difference between ego/intellectual thoughts & higher self/spiritual thoughts?

You discern the difference by your feeling... the ego and intellect have a sense of effort or density and are generally repetitive, whereas thoughts from spirit/true self have a lightness and openness, with a feeling of simplicity and clarity.


I once asked my teacher how I could know what was true, in all that I experience. He said, "The Truth is silent."


Xan

astroboy
30-05-2011, 07:22 AM
I once asked my teacher how I could know what was true, in all that I experience. He said, "The Truth is silent."


Xan[/COLOR]

I like it, Xan.

Perspective
30-05-2011, 02:29 PM
Thanks, Astroboy, :smile:
Timelessness is a whole other experience!
The realization that nothing can be experienced except for NOW - is powerful & very helpful in meditation & connecting to our higher self, whenever we need to!
Yet, I'd say that it's only part of the picture. We need to learn from the past & plan for the future.

Back to what you mentioned earlier about the paradox of trying to grasp at God, when God is infinite...
Buddha spent many years searching for enlightenment, yet he found it only once he stopped searching for it. However, all of those years in searching also, contributed to his finding it. It's like our ego/intellect does as much as it can... & then our higher self takes it from there.


Xan,
Thanks for your comments. :smile:
I read how spiritual insights will seem to us a bit unusual, because they are not coming from the intellect, & we may even brush them off, yet they will persist. As you mentioned, it seems like ego/intellect driven thoughts seem more dense... like "baggage packed desires" that we want now - yet are not necessarily for our higher good.

Thinker108
18-06-2011, 03:55 AM
: I don't believe in anything. Belief is simply not part of my vocabulary. Belief simply means you don't know, yet you believe. A blind man believing in light -- what can that belief does? He does not need a prophet, a messiah; he needs medicine, a surgeon, perhaps an operation on his eyes, so that he can see. And do you believe in light? Nobody asks such questions -- you know light is there. The question of belief is asked only when the thing is non-existential. You cannot see it, you cannot touch it, you cannot feel it. God is a belief, heaven is a belief, hell is a belief
Osho

moke64916
19-06-2011, 12:50 PM
I go out of my mind and into my body for answers. I trust my body. I have no belief. Belief 'is' or 'is not.' It's the unmanifested. No beliefs. The unmanifested doesn't think. He feels. Goes to his higher self for answers.

Gem
19-06-2011, 02:15 PM
Dang! I just had a complete rant on belief in another thread and expended all my energy on it, so now I have no energy to say anything else.

Rivendoah
19-06-2011, 02:33 PM
The majority of all beliefs are taught to us by others... either directly by teachings or indirectly by observation of others...

For me, it was important to shed all my beliefs and start clean... I needed to look at the world... myself... and interpret what spirituality was about on my journey...

I reject the idea that I need a religion... a written text... or religious leader to interpret my faith for me... This takes it all down to me and what I see as god and the relationship we are sharing... this is the nature of my belief...

This is not to say that I don't embrace religious and spiritual ideas that were taught to me or that I am still learning about... however. it is important to me, to take was works and blow the rest away with a breath if kindness...

It is my belief... that I am the only one who can make the final interpretations of what faith is for me... I think many go through life never questioning on a deep level what they have been taught... to me this is the 'lazy mans' religion...

Sundialed
19-06-2011, 03:26 PM
who believes doesn't know, who knows doesn't believe

not to say don't have faith

i also see some people interchange the word know for believe. sometimes words aren't chosen very carefully

Scibat
19-06-2011, 04:26 PM
These days I believe in what my senses tell me is true. I believe in information gathered by personal experience or sources I consider credible. I consider credible sources that are verifiable by me, or backed up by good science and/or data.

zipzip
19-06-2011, 05:09 PM
sometimes it's hard to rid ourselves of our beliefs that we grew up with. However, for me, I'm a bit of a mixed bag: childhood teachings, experiences and my little "lessons" and just what feels good or right.

zipzip

moke64916
20-06-2011, 03:54 PM
I just say, "belief" is different than "experience." It's one thing to believe, but it's another to experience. But I guess you should start somewhere. I wouldn't call it belief though. I would call it passion or wanting. Not Belief. in my opinion. When you get the energy, I would love to hear your opinion on the matter?

Lynn
20-06-2011, 04:44 PM
Hello

When I think of the word “Belief” I am transported back to the Greek teachings of Plato, and Socrates, Aristotle and other’s, for the idea of knowledge based ideas and trains of thinking. Where the idea of science and religion merged in what is Metaphysics. The Mind, Body and Soul being of one.
Growing up to believe in God and in Jesus the Son of God and he being our Savior and never finding the answers I sought to WHY I was made so very different , I came to loose that belief. What I know now though what I lost was not belief but TRUST of what was RIGHT for me as an individual that is connected to a greater whole.


We grow up being told we are individuals but most times being told what our beliefs are to be so does not make us part of a greater whole ?


Do we need to trust our beliefs to have them ?