PDA

View Full Version : What would God say?


Pages : [1] 2

Lisa
21-05-2011, 04:22 PM
"Come"

>>> <<<

Smiler
21-05-2011, 04:30 PM
DEBRA

Or whatever a persons name is LOL

:)

Smiler
21-05-2011, 04:32 PM
Lisa thought of another one...


YES!!!

3dnow
21-05-2011, 04:33 PM
Nothing. .

Spiritlite
21-05-2011, 04:44 PM
I love you.....
Spiritlite

Lisa
21-05-2011, 05:00 PM
I like what God would say. Good stuff! :hug3:

I couldn't read the yellow, Smiler, what does it say?

I'll add, "Awaken." (or Wake up!) :smile:

innerlight
21-05-2011, 05:07 PM
God would say, "innerlight you're one awesome dude"... And I'd say "I know, you did create me after all. I am created in your image." :wink:

Silver
21-05-2011, 05:14 PM
Lisa, hint, when someone posts in a color that doesn't show up just highlight it and it will show up, lol.

Squatchit
21-05-2011, 05:25 PM
God, having looked down at his creation, goes to his meditation room.

He sits quietly and talks to himself...



"Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into!"

http://cache2.allpostersimages.com/p/LRG/16/1681/3671D00Z/posters/neri-g-laurel-and-hardy-in-tit-for-tat.jpg

Silver
21-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Grrreat one, squatch! Luv it!

Lisa
21-05-2011, 05:28 PM
God would say, "innerlight you're one awesome dude"... And I'd say "I know, you did create me after all. I am created in your image." :wink:

"now get to the back of the line." :tongue: :smile:

Lisa
21-05-2011, 05:29 PM
Lisa, hint, when someone posts in a color that doesn't show up just highlight it and it will show up, lol.

Ooooh new tool! Thanks :hug3:

Lisa
21-05-2011, 05:31 PM
Funny, Squatchit :icon_lol:

Lunacie
21-05-2011, 05:53 PM
I have no idea what God would say. I begged him to talk to me for years and years. Finally said "nevermind" and then Goddess talked to me. Awesome.

She said, "Well done, my child." MY child - awesome!

Silver
21-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Hmmm, to me, personally? He'd possibly (or she) would say>>>

Thanks for the laughs and the memories, lol!

Sundialed
21-05-2011, 06:29 PM
he would say
come
help those earthlings, help awaken consciousness in a positive form there, ecological collapse is imminent if their darkness isn't brought to light.
remember me while there, it will surely be the only way to get you through your stay.

trshk
21-05-2011, 06:50 PM
he would say he has been there all along and if you listen you can hear him

unus supra
21-05-2011, 06:51 PM
dont you think weve played hide and seek long enough?

Greenslade
21-05-2011, 10:28 PM
"Stop being a cry-baby and get on with it already"

seeker2011
21-05-2011, 11:37 PM
to what, exactly?

tragblack
21-05-2011, 11:51 PM
God to me:

"What exactly do you think you are looking for?"

sound
22-05-2011, 12:10 AM
What would God say?

What on Earth are you all doing?

Silver
22-05-2011, 12:39 AM
What on Earth are you all doing?


Or..."I can't leave this place for 5 minutes..."
:D

nightowl
22-05-2011, 01:05 AM
What's with this religion stuff! That's not what I meant at all when I revealed myself to man???

nightowl

Blaze
22-05-2011, 10:26 AM
Hey God!

..........

abikisses
22-05-2011, 12:47 PM
What would you say?

Blessings
Abikisses

zipzip
22-05-2011, 01:53 PM
"would you just stop trying to figure everything out and listen...."

zipzip

Lisa
22-05-2011, 02:41 PM
Hey Hey, Awesome replies. Some so funny!
God would say, "Ya'll Rock!" :headbang:

Emmalevine
22-05-2011, 05:27 PM
Sorry but I just can't joke on this thread...

I hope God or whatever Higher Power there is says to me

"Starbuck, you always did the best you could with what you had."

peteyzen
22-05-2011, 05:37 PM
great replies all;

my tuppence worth: `It all me, everything, you too`

astroboy
22-05-2011, 06:43 PM
he would say he has been there all along and if you listen you can hear him

My ears went deaf but I could still hear HIM.

blackfellawhitefella
23-05-2011, 12:07 AM
She dictated a poem to me once.
(next time i come , i'll post it)

She will say ... "well done our true and faithful servant"

Gem
23-05-2011, 02:27 AM
'Peekaboo'

Xan
23-05-2011, 02:29 AM
Every day God says to me, "On to the next..."

What a ride!


Xan

Silver
23-05-2011, 02:29 AM
well, god must have an incredible sense of humor is all I gotta say!

astroboy
06-06-2011, 06:08 PM
Creation

God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to Him, “Lord, we don’t need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing. In other words, we can now do what you did in the ‘beginning’.”

“Oh, is that so? Tell me…” replies God.

“Well, ” says the scientist, “we can take dirt and form it into the
likeness of You and breathe life into it, thus creating man.”

“Well, that’s interesting. Show Me.”

So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.

“Oh no, no, no…” interrupts God, “Get your own dirt.”

Silver
06-06-2011, 06:11 PM
~ good one astroboy!
:wink: :D

TzuJanLi
06-06-2011, 06:28 PM
Greetings..

'God', as the reference requires, talks through doing and experience.. and we are 'that', God's experiencing itself through we/us/Life doing..

Be well..

Sundialed
06-06-2011, 07:20 PM
Creation

God is sitting in Heaven when a scientist says to Him, “Lord, we don’t need you anymore. Science has finally figured out a way to create life out of nothing. In other words, we can now do what you did in the ‘beginning’.”

“Oh, is that so? Tell me…” replies God.

“Well, ” says the scientist, “we can take dirt and form it into the
likeness of You and breathe life into it, thus creating man.”

“Well, that’s interesting. Show Me.”

So the scientist bends down to the earth and starts to mold the soil.

“Oh no, no, no…” interrupts God, “Get your own dirt.”

hahahahahahaha

athribiristan
07-06-2011, 02:04 AM
God would sing a single note. From that note would spring all Creation. We are surrounded by what God would say.

Xan
07-06-2011, 02:20 AM
God would sing a single note. From that note would spring all Creation. We are surrounded by what God would say.


Yes... In fact, God did and does sing a single note, now orchestrated into a symphony. This is 'shabda' or 'nada'... the unstruck sound... "In the beginning was the word."

There's a thread about it: The Inner Sound Current - http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3703


Xan

Mountain-Goat
07-06-2011, 02:44 AM
I'm wondering why god hasn't already said something.

nightowl
07-06-2011, 02:59 AM
I'm wondering why god hasn't already said something.


heheeeee...LOL...ya know I think your probably right AC...God is not so silent huh? :wink:

nightowl

Shabda
07-06-2011, 03:15 AM
God would sing a single note. From that note would spring all Creation. We are surrounded by what God would say.
this is exactly my literal view...good one~!

Shabda
07-06-2011, 03:16 AM
Yes... In fact, God did and does sing a single note, now orchestrated into a symphony. This is 'shabda' or 'nada'... the unstruck sound... "In the beginning was the word."

There's a thread about it: The Inner Sound Current - http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3703 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fshowthread.php%3Ft%3D3703)


Xan
and again, my literal view of this~! another good one~! and yet it is the same One...It is One~!

Xan
07-06-2011, 03:21 AM
I'm wondering why god hasn't already said something.

AC, I'm wondering if you might consider a different way of listening.


Xan

Mountain-Goat
07-06-2011, 03:24 AM
heheeeee...LOL...ya know I think your probably right AC...God is not so silent huh? :wink:

nightowl
No, I mean why hasn't god spoken already.
I hear lots of people saying god is this and god is that and god speaks in infinite ways, yet...
not one word.
You know...words, the most common form of communication of teh humanses.
Oh no...it's all about interpreting meaning from everything and signs and what have you.
But does god utter one syllable....

Mountain-Goat
07-06-2011, 03:25 AM
AC, I'm wondering if you might consider a different way of listening.


Xan
I'm wondering if god almighty can communicate a different way.

nightowl
07-06-2011, 03:32 AM
No, I mean why hasn't god spoken already.
I hear lots of people saying god is this and god is that and god speaks in infinite ways, yet...
not one word.
You know...words, the most common form of communication of teh humanses.
Oh no...it's all about interpreting meaning from everything and signs and what have you.
But does god utter one syllable....

whoops sorry:redface: ...okay gotcha...Well I hear God speak to me in words in my spirit. I think maybe just because words are mans way of communicating that maybe God doesn't need to speak audible words...God is Spirit so maybe God chooses to communicate via spirit. Just my lil' ole thoughts...:smile:

nightowl

Xan
07-06-2011, 03:33 AM
I'm wondering if god almighty can communicate a different way.
Let me count the ways...

However you believe there's nothing being said, or the lines are down for you that could affect your hearing, ya know.


Xan

Mountain-Goat
07-06-2011, 03:44 AM
Let me count the ways...

However you believe there's nothing being said, or the lines are down for you that could affect your hearing, ya know.


Xan
I'm not interested in how many ways you can count, barr one, communicating with words.
Apparently god can communicate in infinite ways but not with words, just in mysterious ways that are open to misinterpretation.
Makes me wonder that's for sure.
And ain't it always this answer, "Oh, it's because you aren't listening, or are unable to."
"God ain't broken, just you."
How about, god ain't sayin' anything.

Mountain-Goat
07-06-2011, 03:47 AM
whoops sorry:redface: ...okay gotcha...Well I hear God speak to me in words in my spirit.
That simply could be you speaking to yourself.

Xan
07-06-2011, 04:08 AM
I'm not interested in how many ways you can count, barr one, communicating with words.
Apparently god can communicate in infinite ways but not with words, just in mysterious ways that are open to misinterpretation.
Makes me wonder that's for sure.


Wondering is good.

Whether god uses words or not, our subconscious minds are excellent translators into whatever sort of language we can hear... like telepathy with foreigners.

Maybe you two just need to agree on a language, you think? :smile:


Xan

nightowl
07-06-2011, 04:23 AM
That simply could be you speaking to yourself.

nope, I know the difference, because my spirit knows what God sounds like...

nightowl

Trieah
07-06-2011, 04:55 AM
Well, I used to imagine that God was sitting up in Heaven, face palming out of frustration, saying, "D'oh! That's not what I said!" or "I'm not the one who caused that!" and "When are you people ever going to listen with your heart?"

But when I actually started listening to him closer, I wasn't hearing much stuff like that at all. I suppose he'd just rather focus on more positive thoughts when getting into actual conversations with people :wink:

athribiristan
07-06-2011, 02:14 PM
No, I mean why hasn't god spoken already.
I hear lots of people saying god is this and god is that and god speaks in infinite ways, yet...
not one word.
You know...words, the most common form of communication of teh humanses.
Oh no...it's all about interpreting meaning from everything and signs and what have you.
But does god utter one syllable....

He talks to me all the time. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

gentledove
07-06-2011, 03:22 PM
God would sing a single note. From that note would spring all Creation. We are surrounded by what God would say.

That is amazing! Thank you...thank you all, this is a very heart/thought provoking thread!

Shabda
07-06-2011, 03:25 PM
He talks to me all the time. I'm not sure what you mean by this.
i agree...

Shabda
07-06-2011, 03:26 PM
That is amazing! Thank you...thank you all, this is a very heart/thought provoking thread!
i agree with you too gentledove~!

gentledove
07-06-2011, 03:33 PM
Yes... In fact, God did and does sing a single note, now orchestrated into a symphony. This is 'shabda' or 'nada'... the unstruck sound... "In the beginning was the word."

There's a thread about it: The Inner Sound Current - http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3703


Xan

And this too, yes!

gentledove
07-06-2011, 03:43 PM
She dictated a poem to me once.
(next time i come , i'll post it)

She will say ... "well done our true and faithful servant"

There is no gratitude like God's. If you think of a time when someone did something unbelievably kind for you to the point where it brought you to tears...imagine the humble thankfulness you felt, the volume of pure love...then magnify this hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of times. This is the gratitude God has to us for our sacrifices and contributions. We may be totally unaware of doing anything special, but it's all written in God's heart every tiniest drop of love, even blessing a flower.

How do I know? I was called home and I felt it.

astroboy
07-06-2011, 04:45 PM
God would sing a single note. From that note would spring all Creation. We are surrounded by what God would say.

This appears in the Sikh scriptures as follows:-
Page 3, Line 16
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
Guru Nanak

athribiristan
07-06-2011, 06:09 PM
This appears in the Sikh scriptures as follows:-
Page 3, Line 16
You created the vast expanse of the Universe with One Word!
Guru Nanak

Indeed. People have known this for thousands of years. Oh, how divine the song of creation. The world is waking up to a new knowledge of God. He is the beauty that surrounds us every day. It makes my heart want to burst with Love for the world.

Perspective
07-06-2011, 07:40 PM
What on Earth are you all doing......for heaven's sake? :angel4: Or..."I can't leave this place for 5 minutes..." :D :icon_lol:

God is always explaining, mostly by showing, countless wonders... we just need to pay attention... http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/data:image/png;base64,iVBORw0KGgoAAAANSUhEUgAAACoAAAASCAIAAAC iiNvMAAABNUlEQVRIidWV0Y2EMAxEU8/+uif35GLoYD5oCM19mIDtBPb2JFY6K0KALL8Zx4HW/mOYiImoiIr4/ZfAjiTTAtTfP84u4KgA9qSCyNbe+fhIyoMKImzaAH//d7z2uGG/XVcNuCl+ZpAkOebZL/CATifAqx2VK9XMDmlmex6JmJrwIFRhGQ/C9ms8h6pKwisGjppZMQ0SAADpCs42VPfgur64NL/n0tb1RdCb7/homiQgAJxytiFa9+yJApGx+ds2b4PjVWTGZmSZWbLuutDjkMml qQig70dvab73XM7KoWACqercfUkqp/yG7UI1ucexrRP3Ze9DKsoAuqcpeNt2dhz7MHTIlsLel0MZN6wM /52CgT2OfbE+PfFJ49X3ZxeR19Uvpyu4tj42YCIwx0c/3I8qfzV+AFyJGB5e+gFYAAAAAElFTkSuQmCC

Nature by Numbers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kkGeOWYOFoA (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.spiritua lforums.com%252525252Fvb%252525252Fredir.php%25252 5253Flink%252525253Dhttp%25252525253A%25252525252F %25252525252Fwww.youtube.com%25252525252Fwatch%252 52525253Ffeature%25252525253Dplayer_embedded%25252 5252526amp%25252525253Bv%25252525253DkkGeOWYOFoA)
Perhaps Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YnfCH7LNcM (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.youtube.com%2525 2Fwatch%25253Fv%25253D3YnfCH7LNcM)

TzuJanLi
07-06-2011, 08:49 PM
Greetings..

If there were a 'God', a persona attatched to what it 'is' that inspires such attempts to imagine its word-play, i suspect it might say..

Why do you not know my words,
i speak them very clearly..
listen to your neighbor,
And to the store clerk..
listen to ther terrorist,
And to the rude jerk..
Hear what they have to say
There is a reason why..
Some are scared to live
And, some are willing to die
I speak through them
And i speak through you
But when they speak
You still hear you

Be well..

Trieah
08-06-2011, 12:13 AM
There is no gratitude like God's. If you think of a time when someone did something unbelievably kind for you to the point where it brought you to tears...imagine the humble thankfulness you felt, the volume of pure love...then magnify this hundreds, hundreds, hundreds of times. This is the gratitude God has to us for our sacrifices and contributions. We may be totally unaware of doing anything special, but it's all written in God's heart every tiniest drop of love, even blessing a flower.

How do I know? I was called home and I felt it.

That's so beautiful :smile:

Mountain-Goat
09-06-2011, 04:40 AM
Wondering is good.

Whether god uses words or not, our subconscious minds are excellent translators into whatever sort of language we can hear... like telepathy with foreigners.

Maybe you two just need to agree on a language, you think? :smile:


Xan
If a person tries to convey their meaning through say, dance, pointing at things, shoving various items in your face, etc...
every type of communication barr spoken words, does this not make it very easy to misinterpret what the person is saying.

Or, in the context of god, you are walking down the street and an owl flys past you,
how many could interpret that as god speaking?

No one knows what the sub conscious is capable of.
There are many who research it and have come up with many ideas, but because it's the sub conscious, it's all theory,
albeit, the tests do seem to point to specific things, but still it remains speculation.

Plus, it's easy to veer from correct translation into misinterpretation when one isn't conscious of the workings of their sub conscious.

Yeah, I stand by my request for god to speak in words so I don't misinterpret.
So I don't start making unsubstanciated conclusions that god has spoken.

~laughs~ It's quite evident I am having a major spak attack regarding god.

This culminated from watching the last part of David Icke's presentation on the Illuminati and stuff.
The last part of his talk, he unsuccessfully tries to convey the wonders of Oneness and we are all god, we are all the I AM and all that stuff.

As I was watching him, it occured to me that this Oneness thing could very well be just another belief system.
Oneness, Illusion, no "I", as I look into all that, they have some serious missing links and flaws in it's logic.

Mountain-Goat
09-06-2011, 04:45 AM
nope, I know the difference, because my spirit knows what God sounds like...

nightowl
I thought god was speaking to me for the last 10 years of my christian walk.
Turns out it wasn't, it was me all a long.

I am not saying your experience is the same, I'm just sayin' how easy it is to believe something while in a belief system.

Mountain-Goat
09-06-2011, 04:47 AM
He talks to me all the time. I'm not sure what you mean by this.

If it's a voice in your head, it's possible it is self that is doing the talking.
That is what I am saying.

Perspective
09-06-2011, 07:39 PM
Yeah, I stand by my request for god to speak in words so I don't misinterpret.
So I don't start making unsubstanciated conclusions that god has spoken...

I thought god was speaking to me for the last 10 years of my christian walk.
Turns out it wasn't, it was me all a long.Hi AC, (picture me waving a peace flag)
I've also realized that my idea of God was mostly in my mind. I felt sad, losing the old belief of God.
Yet, there's no doubt that a lot happens whether my mind is intact or not. :smile:

Have you clearly defined God yet?
If not, how can you be sure God communicates as clearly as spoken English words?
If God did communicate specific words, how can you be sure you won't misinterpret the context & true meaning of those words?

I don't think I'll ever clearly define God, because there is just too much I don't understand. Yet, I do believe in a higher power. There is evidence to support this with dark/invisible energy & matter making up aprox 95% of the universe - including us. Yet, as you implied, not clearly knowing the meaning of it all doesn't seem to help us much, or does it? Maybe God is only found when we don't look for God... like serendipity... finding something valuable you weren't looking for.

If you consider that everyone loves, in their own way... sometimes with higher inspiration... then there is a higher power to be found in every creature - who has a natural drive to do their best to love (or strive for what they think is best in any given moment). I believe that on some subconscious or spiritual level, we know what's going on with ourselves & each other in a profound way & together we make up a higher power, or mysteriously influential energy.

Xan
09-06-2011, 07:54 PM
If it's a voice in your head, it's possible it is self that is doing the talking.
That is what I am saying.

I agree.
We humans are easily fooled by our own subconscious minds.
As I see it radical self-honesty is necessary to stay clear of wishful thinking
(and fearful, doubtful thinking as well)
and belief-based self deception.

But you have given us a key... "a voice in your head"...
For me spirit/God communication is not in the head mind
but is a sensing/feeling in the heart...
not the outer emotional heart but the clear open space of the inner heart.
This one I trust.

And sometimes there are guiding words when I am aware in this same place...
that when I follow them things work out a whole lot better than if I were just going on my own.

I'm not trying to convince you, AC, because this kind of knowing comes only through your own experience...
more subtle than the mind and intellect.
This is just my story.


Xan

TzuJanLi
09-06-2011, 08:01 PM
Greetings..

There is so much that is so very directly intimately experiencable, Life in all of its brilliant diversity.. a Universe of experiencable self-discovery, endless beyond our imagination, but.. so many prefer the imagination to what is 'present'.. holding onto 'words' instead of the experience the words point to..

Be well..

tragblack
09-06-2011, 08:02 PM
When I am being completely honest with myself and my motives, that's when I feel that there is that "true presence of Self," whatever Self is-- it could be Buddha nature, God, the Force, etc.

To be honest with myself is very hard. I must watch the subtle changes of my thoughts constantly, and see where I am baiting myself. The ego tries to rationalize things in so many ways... even spiritual things. Being totally mySelf, I can see where I am making too much or too little out of something, but it takes so much work and concentration! You must follow a thought from beginning to end, even the uncomfortable ones.

I am getting all my advice from reading Krishnamurti lately, can anybody tell, lol!

Xan
09-06-2011, 08:17 PM
There's another way of watching your thought processes, tragblack, that I'd like to suggest. This is to observe that your thoughts continuously go on and on, but without involvement in their content.

Then, with a slight shift in awareness you may become aware of the watcher... your own self who is watching... the essence that you are as open awareness beyond thought.

Krishnamurti said this too.


Xan

Sundialed
09-06-2011, 09:07 PM
The Creator would say

"Follow your heart, not any written law, all laws you need are within your heart, nature, and the universe."

The Kogi say "What do you want, laws and wars? or morals and values?"

TzuJanLi
09-06-2011, 09:27 PM
Greetings..

You cannot 'watch your thoughts', you are your thoughts.. everything that 'is' is energy.. energy behaving in a Universe of diversity, thoughts, beings, Life, death, Change.. and we are that, to we 'think' we can watch it is an illusion, it is the same energy 'thinking it is watching'.. in the stillness, this is revealed as an interconnected tapestry of relationships, where everything from photons to universes are connected to every other thing, a Unified Whole.. it is from this fundamental realization, that we/us/Life can access our Wholeness, our eternal Life energy..

Be well..

Xan
09-06-2011, 09:31 PM
hmmm.... Actually everything is interactive energies and Consciousness. Otherwise, you wouldn't know that you exist or what you are thinking and experiencing.

Watching your thoughts, sensations and feelings is a first step
the next being the slight shift of noticing that You are watching them
then there's another shift when you become aware that you are aware
and still further that you are silent awareness itself.


Try this....

Notice whatever you are aware of right now.

Now, notice That you are aware.



Xan

TzuJanLi
09-06-2011, 10:12 PM
Greetings..

hmmm.... Actually everything is Consciousness and energy. Otherwise, you wouldn't know you exist or what you are thinking.

Watching your thoughts, sensations and feelings is a first step; the next one being noticing that You are watching them; and beyond that you may become aware not only that you are aware, but you are silent awareness itself.

Try it sometime.

Xan
I've done it many times, as source of the thoughts you are that, not a 'watcher' separate from the thinking.. Consciousness and Energy are inseparable.. awareness is an attribute of consciousness, not independent.. awareness can and does vanish, consciousness and energy remain.. When everything disappears (sleep, anesthesia) and 'you' consistently return, identity intact, where was awareness? awareness, as described in the quote, is an embellished description of perception and experience.. the separate 'watcher' is the illusion.. 'awareness' is a confusing and inappropriate term for the process you are describing, like so much of the new-age terminology.. why juxtapose or redefine meanings when the common language is very capable of describing the experiences of spirituality? is it to create the illusion of mystique and priviliged access? and, those are sincere questions, not veiled accusations.. i don't know the answers, but i have been asked the questions enough to know they are valid questions..

Be well..



Be well..

TzuJanLi
09-06-2011, 10:16 PM
Greetings..

hmmm.... Actually everything is interactive energies and Consciousness. Otherwise, you wouldn't know that you exist or what you are thinking and experiencing.

Watching your thoughts, sensations and feelings is a first step
the next being the slight shift of noticing that You are watching them
then there's another shift when you become aware that you are aware
and still further that you are silent awareness itself.


Try this....

Notice whatever you are aware of right now.

Now, notice That you are aware.



Xan
Well, since the edit.. i notice that i can apply/focus awareness, not that i 'am' awareness.. to say that "i am aware", is the form of saying "i am hungry", but i am not 'hungriness itself'.. do you see the disconnect?

Be well..

Xan
09-06-2011, 10:35 PM
But, Bob... awareness is not a sensation like hungriness. Awareness is how we know we feel hungry.


My personal discovery is that awareness and energy are expressing themselves as me.


Awareness/consciousness is multifaceted, hence the ancient symbol of the 1000 petaled lotus for it.


Xan

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 12:22 AM
Greetings..

But, Bob... awareness is not a sensation like hungriness. Awareness is how we know we feel hungry.


My personal discovery is that awareness and energy are expressing themselves as me.


Awareness/consciousness is multifaceted, hence the ancient symbol of the 1000 petaled lotus for it.


Xan

Awareness is very much like sensations.. it is the medium through which sensations, physical and spiritual, come into consciousness where they are organized into understandings.. the term 'awareness' is misapplied and confusing.. work toward simplicity, eliminate ambiguity..

Be well..

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 12:29 AM
Greetings..

But, Bob... awareness is not a sensation like hungriness. Awareness is how we know we feel hungry.


My personal discovery is that awareness and energy are expressing themselves as me.


Awareness/consciousness is multifaceted, hence the ancient symbol of the 1000 petaled lotus for it.


Xan

You are so much more than an 'expression', Xan.. you are Energy that has Liberated itself, free to experience beyond the algorithms of fractal geometry, you are freedom and creation, apart from a predictable process, apart from a symbolic representation.. you are Life..

Be well..

athribiristan
10-06-2011, 12:57 AM
There's another way of watching your thought processes, tragblack, that I'd like to suggest. This is to observe that your thoughts continuously go on and on, but without involvement in their content.

Then, with a slight shift in awareness you may become aware of the watcher... your own self who is watching... the essence that you are as open awareness beyond thought.

Krishnamurti said this too.


Xan


Agreed. Detachment, if the word suits you. Thoughts are as clouds drifting by in the far off sky.

Xan
10-06-2011, 03:21 AM
TzuJanLi: You are so much more than an 'expression', Xan.. you are Life..


There are only two things in existence... essence and expression.

All life is the exquisitely complex expression of the consciousness and love that are the essence.


Xan

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 04:38 AM
Greetings..

TzuJanLi: You are so much more than an 'expression', Xan.. you are Life..


There are only two things in existence... essence and expression.

All life is the exquisitely complex expression of the consciousness and love that are the essence.


Xan
The fact that 'you' can claim a distinction makes it at least three 'things', Xan.. so, 'you' have identified: life, consciousness, and love.. that's four things.. it is the feeling that we have to make Life seem all 'spiritual' that we talk in these ambiguous self-contradictory riddles that confuses people.. existence is teeming with diversity, and it's not an "expression", it's very real..

Be well..

Xan
10-06-2011, 05:08 AM
Actually it's lack of intimately knowing our true nature that confuses people. :wink:

Once again, Bob, you have gone off-topic with your complaints about how I express myself. Geez..... :rolleyes:


Back to the OP, I hear God saying..... shhhhhhh....


Xan

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 05:12 AM
Greetings..

Actually it's lack of intimately knowing our true nature that confuses people. :wink:

Once again, Bob, you have gone off-topic with your complaints about how I express myself. Geez..... :rolleyes:


Back to the OP, I hear God saying..... shhhhhhh....


Xan
Try listening, Xan.. you will really find it helpful, regardless of the topic..

Be well..

Silver
10-06-2011, 05:16 AM
I imagine God would say>>>

I know you not...kidding!

Lisa
10-06-2011, 03:49 PM
Greetings..

If there were a 'God', a persona attatched to what it 'is' that inspires such attempts to imagine its word-play, i suspect it might say..

Why do you not know my words,
i speak them very clearly..
listen to your neighbor,
And to the store clerk..
listen to ther terrorist,
And to the rude jerk..
Hear what they have to say
There is a reason why..
Some are scared to live
And, some are willing to die
I speak through them
And i speak through you
But when they speak
You still hear you

Be well..

I like this!

Here's two Hafiz poems that compliment.


Where is the door to God?

In the sound
of a barking dog,

in the ring
of a hammer,

in a drop of rain,

in the face
of everyone I see.


Running through the streets screaming,
throwing rocks through windows,
using my own head to ring great bells,
pulling out my hair,
tearing off my clothes,
tying everything I own to a stick
and setting it on fire.

What else can Hafiz do tonight
to celebrate the madness,
the joy,

of seeing God everywhere!

Lisa
10-06-2011, 03:51 PM
I thought god was speaking to me for the last 10 years of my christian walk.
Turns out it wasn't, it was me all a long.

I am not saying your experience is the same, I'm just sayin' how easy it is to believe something while in a belief system.

Great point!

Lisa
10-06-2011, 03:55 PM
There's another way of watching your thought processes, tragblack, that I'd like to suggest. This is to observe that your thoughts continuously go on and on, but without involvement in their content.

Then, with a slight shift in awareness you may become aware of the watcher... your own self who is watching... the essence that you are as open awareness beyond thought.

Xan


Yes. The watcher watching itself. The observer observing itself. :smile:

Lisa
10-06-2011, 04:02 PM
Watching your thoughts, sensations and feelings is a first step
the next being the slight shift of noticing that You are watching them
then there's another shift when you become aware that you are aware
and still further that you are silent awareness itself.


Try this....

Notice whatever you are aware of right now.

Now, notice That you are aware.


Xan

I'm on board. Impersonal awareness realizing itself- and "you" are that- but no "you".

No self here. "You are silent awareness itself."

Time
10-06-2011, 04:05 PM
Im not mocking this thread, im saying what I think with a bit of a joke:P


http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/JackoTheDweeb/DoubleFacepalm.png?t=1250618452

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 04:28 PM
Greetings..

I'm on board. Impersonal awareness realizing itself- and "you" are that- but no "you".

No self here. "You are silent awareness itself."
Hi Lisa: Try to find a time when it isn't 'personal', when there isn't a 'you'.. 'you' tell yourself this story, about awareness and 'no you', but there 'you' are experiencing the story 'you are telling'.. the entirety of your story is dependent on a 'you' to concieve of the story you are telling.. Lisa and Xan are necessary to tell each other the story about the 'no you'..

Slip into stillness, 'you' are still there, still and quietly experiencing Life, or loudly hustling in the crowd.. to the still mind both conditions are clear.. no stories, just the experience happening, and being fully in it.. not in a story about awareness, in the actual experience..

Be well..

Lisa
10-06-2011, 04:59 PM
Im not mocking this thread, im saying what I think with a bit of a joke:P


http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv12/JackoTheDweeb/DoubleFacepalm.png?t=1250618452

Funny! lol Make is so number ONE. :tongue:

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 05:02 PM
Greetings..


Hi Lisa: Try to find a time when it isn't 'personal', when there isn't a 'you'.. 'you' tell yourself this story, about awareness and 'no you', but there 'you' are experiencing the story 'you are telling'.. the entirety of your story is dependent on a 'you' to concieve of the story you are telling.. Lisa and Xan are necessary to tell each other the story about the 'no you'..

Slip into stillness, 'you' are still there, still and quietly experiencing Life, or loudly hustling in the crowd.. to the still mind both conditions are clear.. no stories, just the experience happening, and being fully in it.. not in a story about awareness, in the actual experience..

Be well..

Yes Tzu and without 'you' there simply is no experience. happening.
Awareness is part of that experience

Lisa
10-06-2011, 05:14 PM
Greetings..


Hi Lisa: Try to find a time when it isn't 'personal', when there isn't a 'you'.. 'you' tell yourself this story, about awareness and 'no you', but there 'you' are experiencing the story 'you are telling'.. the entirety of your story is dependent on a 'you' to concieve of the story you are telling.. Lisa and Xan are necessary to tell each other the story about the 'no you'..

Slip into stillness, 'you' are still there, still and quietly experiencing Life, or loudly hustling in the crowd.. to the still mind both conditions are clear.. no stories, just the experience happening, and being fully in it.. not in a story about awareness, in the actual experience..

Be well..


I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. And from your perception, what you are saying is true.

We have argued enough times over this.

"To go where no man has gone before."

This is what Xan and I are pointing to. Not to the stars. But to the space that allows the stars to be.

You can judge that as false and inaccurate. That's fine.

Even the stars will die. But not space. :smile:

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 05:19 PM
I don't see it that way.............they are interdependent....no stars would = no space and it is not possible.
It is an eternal dance. One cannot be without the other. They are one.

Lisa
10-06-2011, 05:20 PM
Yes Tzu and without 'you' there simply is no experience. happening.
Awareness is part of that experience

The personal self is doomed. No matter what you want to attach it to.

Experiences come and go. They are not God. They are means of realizing God.

(However seldom they are used for this.)

Lisa
10-06-2011, 05:25 PM
I don't see it that way.............they are interdependent....no stars would = no space and it is not possible.
It is an eternal dance. One cannot be without the other.

False.

Space would be without the sun.

They are one.

True.

It's all space. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. The forms are manifestations of space. But all forms are temporary. Space is eternal- prior to form, in form, as form- but space. Ergo- the illusion of form.

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 05:27 PM
The personal self is doomed. No matter what you want to attach it to.

Experiences come and go. They are not God. They are means of realizing God.

(However seldom they are used for this.)

You are not hearing me.......:smile: Gotta go to a meeting...........we can talk later

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 05:28 PM
You had me at "True"..... lol

Lisa
10-06-2011, 05:30 PM
You are not hearing me.......:smile: Gotta go to a meeting...........we can talk later

You're right. I know you very well. :D

And luvs ya! :hug3:

Lisa
10-06-2011, 05:34 PM
You had me at "True"..... lol


Little devil. :angel12:

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 06:24 PM
Greetings..

I understand what you are saying and it makes sense. And from your perception, what you are saying is true.

We have argued enough times over this.

"To go where no man has gone before."

This is what Xan and I are pointing to. Not to the stars. But to the space that allows the stars to be.

You can judge that as false and inaccurate. That's fine.

Even the stars will die. But not space. :smile:
I will gladly go beyond the known.. the ______ you call 'space' is eternal, but the 'word' 'space' is a product of evolution arriving in this present now.. the stars disolve, the human experience disolves, everything disolves into the vast eternal emptiness.. or not, what is 'NOW'? Why do you toy with speculation? yep, it's a real mind-blower when you have that Wholeness experience, then it's back to the chores, but with a new awareness/perspective.. the illusion is grasping/attaching to that wholeness experience, but it just happens when it does.. talkin' about like it's something special isn't all that helpful, it makes it seem like it's something separate, it's not. This physical experience will pass into history, but its echo/memory will exist for eternity.. accessible by all energetic forms in the same way they are also accessible to us.. the consciousness which remembers the totality of its existence, is the same consciosness that remembers every individual Life it has experienced.. and, we are 'that', forever..

Space dies when there is nothing to experience it..

Be well..

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 06:44 PM
the consciousness which remembers the totality of its existence, is the same consciosness that remembers every individual Life it has experienced.. and, we are 'that', forever.. TZU

Respectfully, how do you know that?
Do you recall the totality of existence and every individual life?
James

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 07:14 PM
the consciousness which remembers the totality of its existence, is the same consciosness that remembers every individual Life it has experienced.. and, we are 'that', forever.. TZU

Respectfully, how do you know that?
Do you recall the totality of existence and every individual life?
James
Yes, sort-of.. i access the 'cosmic memory' from time to time.. it's all there, do i experience ALL of the individual memories, no but some few.. but there's no doubt it's all experiencable with the correct understandings.. initially, the memories/vibrations that most resonate with my own energetic signature manifests in my experiencable field of consciousness.. then, as i became accustomed to the shift of awareness, all manner of previously unknown to me experiences were manifesting, matters still close to my energetic signature, but beyond my capacity to know from physical experience.. it is the experience of Unity, of the interactive relationships of all things..

Be well..

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 07:26 PM
Yes, sort-of.. i access the 'cosmic memory' from time to time.. it's all there, do i experience ALL of the individual memories, no but some few.. but there's no doubt it's all experiencable with the correct understandings.. initially, the memories/vibrations that most resonate with my own energetic signature manifests in my experiencable field of consciousness.. then, as i became accustomed to the shift of awareness, all manner of previously unknown to me experiences were manifesting, matters still close to my energetic signature, but beyond my capacity to know from physical experience.. it is the experience of Unity, of the interactive relationships of all things..

Be well..

Thanks Tzu, that is what I expected you to say and I appreciate it.....but.........how do you know that you have not just created this experience of accessing a cosmic memory? I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying we can create any expereince we want. Even to the point of materializing in front of us. I have.
It's like people who experience past lives......I'm sure they all had experiences too but seriously how many Cleopatra's could there have been......LOL

Time
10-06-2011, 07:44 PM
" you only see what you expect"

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 07:47 PM
" you only see what you expect"

Maybe............maybe not..............:smile:

If we only expect to see only what we expect we can never know if there is more to see.........I'm kinda open-ended on this one.

Time
10-06-2011, 07:54 PM
Well of course theres a line right, but generaly speaking we only see what we want, some see angels, some see relitives, some see god or jesus, or hades or who ever ya know?

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 07:58 PM
yes, i think so..........but I think its deeper than that. I just can't put my finger on it.
My guess is that where it leads to is that nothing is 'real'.

Xan
10-06-2011, 08:34 PM
...the illusion is grasping/attaching to that wholeness experience...


You could have stopped sooner, Bob... The illusion is the mind's grasping, clinging and resisting... as these are what keep us trapped, not whatever we might be clinging to.

This is why letting go sets us free.


Xan

Xan
10-06-2011, 08:39 PM
Try to find a time when it isn't 'personal', when there isn't a 'you'.. 'you' tell yourself this story, about awareness and 'no you', but there 'you' are experiencing the story 'you are telling'.. the entirety of your story is dependent on a 'you' to concieve of the story you are telling..


When we go deeper there is pure unboundaried aware beingness with 'no you'. Then we return to individual consciousness in this dimension and tell the story of it.

There's no need to try to resolve the apparent paradox of experiencing the multiple levels of consciousness that we are by denying either or any.


Xan

Xan
10-06-2011, 08:42 PM
Yes Tzu and without 'you' there simply is no experience. happening.
Awareness is part of that experience

Actually awareness is how we experience.

Consider this, James... If there were no awareness how would you know it?


Xan

Xan
10-06-2011, 08:52 PM
It's all space. Emptiness is form, form is emptiness. The forms are manifestations of space. But all forms are temporary. Space is eternal- prior to form, in form, as form- but space. Ergo- the illusion of form.

True.

All forms and all experiences appear and disappear in the infinite formless space of pure awareness, like waves on the surface of the ocean.

This what is really meant by 'illusion'... not that forms and experiences and 'I' don't exist in our experience, but they are not what they appear to be and have no independent substance.

In essence all forms, including "I", are pure awareness... pure love, as the most primal of all energies.

This can only be recognized by direct intimate knowing, so in a way discussions about it are a useless joke... except someone may get a glimpse and stop and say, "Oh! That's what they were talking about!" It makes all the difference in the world.


Xan

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 08:59 PM
Greetings..

Thanks Tzu, that is what I expected you to say and I appreciate it.....but.........how do you know that you have not just created this experience of accessing a cosmic memory? I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying we can create any expereince we want. Even to the point of materializing in front of us. I have.
It's like people who experience past lives......I'm sure they all had experiences too but seriously how many Cleopatra's could there have been......LOL
Hi WS: Some things are very familiar, i suspect that is due to resonate energies, but.. some experiences are beyond anything i am capable of imagining, so i pay attention.. those seem authentic, as in 'not my conjurings'.. familiarities are suspect by my accounting, but.. under hypnosis, i have been able to relocate forgotten trails and pathways from my childhood, returning to the entrance to caverns that had remained forgotten until the hypnosis in late '90s.. it's all still floating in the ZPF, and we're just learning the techniques to access it consistently..

As for the 'Cleopatras', their 'beliefs' attracted that energy, and when that energy, or a similar being's energetic imprint, is recalled and interpreted, it seems to get recounted as the intended 'Cleopatra'.. or the belief of Angels, guides, personalities, etc.. the 'cosmic memory' is a very big 'place'..

Be well..

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 09:01 PM
Greetings..

yes, i think so..........but I think its deeper than that. I just can't put my finger on it.
My guess is that where it leads to is that nothing is 'real'.
Which is exactly the same as saying 'everything is real'..

Be well..

Trieah
10-06-2011, 09:01 PM
And God came to read that last several pages of this thread, about what he would say, and said.

"I didn't know I said all of that. Must be a bunch of individual interpretations, looked at from completely different perspectives. Oh you crazy bunch of kids you, I just gotta love ya all."


Sorry, couldn't resist :D

TzuJanLi
10-06-2011, 09:06 PM
Greetings..

...the illusion is grasping/attaching to that wholeness experience...


You could have stopped sooner, Bob... The illusion is the mind's grasping, clinging and resisting... as these are what keep us trapped, not whatever we might be clinging to.

This is why letting go sets us free.


Xan
Whatever follows "grasping and attaching", is what needs to be "let go", then there is is nothing to grasp.. or, did you mean to reinforce my point?

Be well..

Xan
10-06-2011, 09:14 PM
"Oh you crazy bunch of kids you, I just gotta love ya all."


I like it. :smile:


Xan

Xan
10-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Whatever follows "grasping and attaching", is what needs to be "let go", then there is is nothing to grasp..
Well that's a step anyway, but then with the grasping habit still intact we'll just latch on to something else, another idea or identity.

Where we really get free is giving up the habit of attaching - clinging and resisting - and replace it with a new one of letting go all the time.


Xan

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 10:17 PM
Greetings..


Which is exactly the same as saying 'everything is real'..

Be well..


Yes Yes Yes!!!:smile: Beautifully said!

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 10:21 PM
Greetings..


Hi WS: Some things are very familiar, i suspect that is due to resonate energies, but.. some experiences are beyond anything i am capable of imagining, so i pay attention.. those seem authentic, as in 'not my conjurings'.. familiarities are suspect by my accounting, but.. under hypnosis, i have been able to relocate forgotten trails and pathways from my childhood, returning to the entrance to caverns that had remained forgotten until the hypnosis in late '90s.. it's all still floating in the ZPF, and we're just learning the techniques to access it consistently..

As for the 'Cleopatras', their 'beliefs' attracted that energy, and when that energy, or a similar being's energetic imprint, is recalled and interpreted, it seems to get recounted as the intended 'Cleopatra'.. or the belief of Angels, guides, personalities, etc.. the 'cosmic memory' is a very big 'place'..

Be well..

I hear you and thank you for putting up with my questions. I only ask because I highly regard your answers. I'm not looking for answers neccessarly, its just of value to me to hear what you have to say about such things.
Blessings, James

BlueSky
10-06-2011, 10:27 PM
Actually awareness is how we experience.

Consider this, James... If there were no awareness how would you know it?


Xan



That could be so Xan.........I don't really know. I sense awareness and i sense that without me there would be no experiences. That is what i was trying to say. Which came first doesn't really concern me for some reason.
It seems odd to think that there is awareness without me while there is a me though.
Blessings, James

Xan
11-06-2011, 02:04 AM
I sense awareness...

Right.

So my question is, would you look and see what it is that is sensing awareness?


Xan

BlueSky
11-06-2011, 02:14 AM
I sense awareness...

Right.

So my question is, would you look and see what it is that is sensing awareness?


Xan


It doesn't matter to me.........I can only think I know............and I am perfectly happy and content just sensing awareness. I don't need to think that I can go deeper.
I'm also pretty convinced that I could create the most wonderful experience of finding something that is sensing awareness. I don't need to do that though..........that doesn't mean that there is something there.......it just means it is another experience and not one that I need or desire.

TzuJanLi
11-06-2011, 02:15 AM
Greetings..

Well that's a step anyway, but then with the grasping habit still intact we'll just latch on to something else, another idea or identity.

Where we really get free is giving up the habit of attaching - clinging and resisting - and replace it with a new one of letting go all the time.


Xan
Is that what you 'get' from the exchange?? some 'thing' to grasp at, to get the last 'spiritual' word.. good, it's your's take it, i'm returning to simplicity..

Be well..

TzuJanLi
11-06-2011, 02:19 AM
Greetings..

I hear you and than you for putting up with my questions. I only ask because I highly regard your answers. I'm not looking for answers neccessarly, its just of value to me to hear what you have to say about such things.
Blessings, James
Thanks for asking, WS.. and for the willingness to see for yourself.. i know i don't have 'the answers', i just sincerely share whatever i do have..

Be well..

BlueSky
11-06-2011, 02:22 AM
Greetings..


Thanks for asking, WS.. and for the willingness to see for yourself.. i know i don't have 'the answers', i just sincerely share whatever i do have..

Be well..

Me too my friend.............:smile:

TzuJanLi
13-06-2011, 04:31 PM
Greetings..

Sometimes, we simply need to step aside, to watch.. to let Life reveal itself to us.. even though we are secure in our understandings, be willing to be insecure, be willing to be new and fresh again..

Be well..

BlueSky
13-06-2011, 04:46 PM
but you know Tzu........even "letting life reveal itself" can be a way of staying secure in our understandings.
Maybe we create the life that is revealing itself..................it seems odd to me these days to think that there is something happening beyond my awareness of it, to me.
In other words a life different than how I percieve it existing differently than I perceive it seems like a tree falling in the forest with noone around actually making a noise.
In other ways it is like saying there is no "I"....denying the life we do percieve and attach understanding to.

Just babbling thoughts as I read your post.............Blessings, James

Lisa
13-06-2011, 04:49 PM
Greetings..

Sometimes, we simply need to step aside, to watch.. to let Life reveal itself to us.. even though we are secure in our understandings, be willing to be insecure, be willing to be new and fresh again..

Be well..

I like it!

Mountain-Goat
15-06-2011, 02:42 AM
I agree.
We humans are easily fooled by our own subconscious minds.
As I see it radical self-honesty is necessary to stay clear of wishful thinking
(and fearful, doubtful thinking as well)
and belief-based self deception.

But you have given us a key... "a voice in your head"...
For me spirit/God communication is not in the head mind
but is a sensing/feeling in the heart...
not the outer emotional heart but the clear open space of the inner heart.
This one I trust.

And sometimes there are guiding words when I am aware in this same place...
that when I follow them things work out a whole lot better than if I were just going on my own.

I'm not trying to convince you, AC, because this kind of knowing comes only through your own experience...
more subtle than the mind and intellect.
This is just my story.


Xan

~smiles~ I know Xan, and even though I do dig deep into other's beliefs and perceptions,
poke and prod and confront, I am the same in that I am not trying to convince anyone of anything.
It's just...ARGH...I was not aware my explorations into this whole god thingy would result in me
having a crisis of faith type thingy.
Which is quite funny as I don't have a faith to speak of.
But, it has revealed I must have some foundational beliefs that are being confronted.

It's actually been bringing a whole bunch of stuff up to the surface for processing, so even though it's been somewhat painful and frustrating,
it will result in more expansion, freedom and knowing.

Ditto on the self honesty Xan.

Mountain-Goat
15-06-2011, 02:47 AM
I thought god was speaking to me for the last 10 years of my christian walk.
Turns out it wasn't, it was me all a long.

I am not saying your experience is the same, I'm just sayin' how easy it is to believe something while in a belief system.
Great point!

It was a most profound truning point for me Lisa.
A huge moment of awareness expansion to see that my perception was contained within those beliefs.

Mountain-Goat
15-06-2011, 03:10 AM
Hi AC, (picture me waving a peace flag)
I've also realized that my idea of God was mostly in my mind. I felt sad, losing the old belief of God.
Yet, there's no doubt that a lot happens whether my mind is intact or not. :smile:
Have you clearly defined God yet?
The only thing I can honestly label as a personal truth about god, is there had to be an intelligence
at the moment of the manifestation of the first life form.
Apart from that conjecture, I have no understanding of who or what god is.
If not, how can you be sure God communicates as clearly as spoken English words?
I have yet to hear god speak in audible english.
I hear others state god speaks to them, but that is always something they hear in their minds.
To me, there is room for doubt that that is god.
I do claim it isn't god, I simply state there is doubt.

Just like this scene from The Fifth Element where General Staedert has finished analysing the newly formed planetoid.

President Lindberg: Steadert.
General Staedert: Yes Sir!
President Lindberg:I have a doubt.
General Staedert: I don't, Mr. President. - and he fires some hi powered nuclear missles at it.
If God did communicate specific words, how can you be sure you won't misinterpret the context & true meaning of those words?
I have a dictionary, and I assume if god can speak to me, then god can read too.
I don't think I'll ever clearly define God, because there is just too much I don't understand. Yet, I do believe in a higher power. There is evidence to support this with dark/invisible energy & matter making up aprox 95% of the universe - including us. Yet, as you implied, not clearly knowing the meaning of it all doesn't seem to help us much, or does it? Maybe God is only found when we don't look for God... like serendipity... finding something valuable you weren't looking for.
~smiles~ But seriously too, now imagine what a person will see if they have removed the concept of god totally from their view.
If you consider that everyone loves, in their own way... sometimes with higher inspiration... then there is a higher power to be found in every creature - who has a natural drive to do their best to love (or strive for what they think is best in any given moment). I believe that on some subconscious or spiritual level, we know what's going on with ourselves & each other in a profound way & together we make up a higher power, or mysteriously influential energy.
Yeah...now take god out of the equation and continue loving self and others.
Instead of searching for god, or trying to define it...just get on with your life and love yourself and others.

TzuJanLi
15-06-2011, 08:07 PM
The only thing I can honestly label as a personal truth about god, is there had to be an intelligence
at the moment of the manifestation of the first life form.
Apart from that conjecture, I have no understanding of who or what god is.

I have yet to hear god speak in audible english.
I hear others state god speaks to them, but that is always something they hear in their minds.
To me, there is room for doubt that that is god.
I do claim it isn't god, I simply state there is doubt.

Just like this scene from The Fifth Element where General Staedert has finished analysing the newly formed planetoid.

President Lindberg: Steadert.
General Staedert: Yes Sir!
President Lindberg:I have a doubt.
General Staedert: I don't, Mr. President. - and he fires some hi powered nuclear missles at it.

I have a dictionary, and I assume if god can speak to me, then god can read too.

~smiles~ But seriously too, now imagine what a person will see if they have removed the concept of god totally from their view.

Yeah...now take god out of the equation and continue loving self and others.
Instead of searching for god, or trying to define it...just get on with your life and love yourself and others.
Hi AC: That is a fine bit of clarity and common-sense.. and, i have discovered a remarkable feeling of liberation when there's no longer a 'God' notion trying to link itself to 'this belief or that belief'.. as you say, the we can get-on with making Life a better 'way' to live..

The 'intelligence' present at the formation of 'biological' Life, seems to be the simple and sincere curiosity about existence, the same basic question every aspect of Life searches for, 'what am i'? and 'what is my relationship with the sensations and perceptions i am experiencing'?

Be well..

Mountain-Goat
17-06-2011, 02:02 AM
Hi AC: That is a fine bit of clarity and common-sense.. and, i have discovered a remarkable feeling of liberation when there's no longer a 'God' notion trying to link itself to 'this belief or that belief'.. as you say, the we can get-on with making Life a better 'way' to live..
~smiles~ I do have my moments.
But for me, and I calculate it's similar for others, my moments of clarity can only be obtained after exhaustive exploration, thinking and testing.
After all the work is done, I sit back and have a look at the mountain of data I have been traversing,
conclude I am no more enlightened of the subject than when I first started.
It is only after all that work that the light bulb goes on.
If the long explorative search was never conducted, that light bulb moment would still be X amount of distance away.

But with all that said, I can understand wanting to have some type of solid foundation to exist from.
I was very secure when I had a christian belief of reality.
A+B=C. It all adds up nice and neat.

But now, in this unsecured state, there are numerous equations to ponder, but no clear answers.
I have come across answers to questions in this state, but as I look beyond that answer,
I find the answer is not the absolute truth, but simply a marker of relative truth on an infinite path.
EG: I had to traverse a 7 year journey to discover a cure for my depression.
And along the way I discovered many truths, and had to detach from many as well.
I even had to detach from the initial truth to begin the journey.

What is the final destination of this infinite path, what will I discover on it?
Wouldn't have a clue, but I have noticed one thing as I journey...love for myself and others is increasing.
And an intuitive sense that there are more profound wonders to come.
That's good enough for me to continue this magical mystery tour.

One of the the cons of being in the unsecured state are the feelings and thoughts of uncertainty,
of not knowing the answers to questions X, Y and Z.
But one of the pros of being in an unsecure state is infinite freedom to explore.
And it is in this realm of infinite freedom that my life is forever expanding.

I have no defined goals to achieve other that the one that got me started, to repair the immence damage inside me.
Is this the true purpose of life? I do not know. Maybe it's just the first thing one must do before one can start the real journey.
I do know that as I heal myself, the wonder and beauty of life increases.

The 'intelligence' present at the formation of 'biological' Life, seems to be the simple and sincere curiosity about existence, the same basic question every aspect of Life searches for, 'what am i'? and 'what is my relationship with the sensations and perceptions i am experiencing'?

Be well..
If I read you correctly, I have been thinking along similar lines for many moons now.
As if this intelligence was asking the same question, "Who or what am I?", but not in the same way an individual does
because we have no idea what form this intelligence has or had.

Then for reasons unknown, though pondered and conjectured no end, individualised life manifested.
And though I do not know if other life forms ponder, "Who or what am I?", humans do.

Then why the diversion of trying to define god?
Because some feel secure in knowing where they came from, or it gives them a point of reference to proceed from?
Why not continue finding an answer to the question ,"Who or what am I?"

I realised in my early 20's, not long after my first beakdown, that I had no idea who I was.
It's been over 25 years and I still have no definitive answers...but I'm havin' a wonderous and beautiful time as I continue to explore that question.

Perspective
17-06-2011, 08:52 PM
The only thing I can honestly label as a personal truth about god, is there had to be an intelligence
at the moment of the manifestation of the first life form.
Apart from that conjecture, I have no understanding of who or what god is. Hi AC, :smile:
Let me see if I understand you correctly... To you, God is the Creative Force that got this world going.
Do you think God continues to be a creative force in this world?
My 3-year-old asked a profound question I didn't know how to answer..."Where did God get everything?" To me, there is room for doubt that that is god.
I do claim it isn't god, I simply state there is doubt...

~smiles~ But seriously too, now imagine what a person will see if they have removed the concept of god totally from their view.I respect that you don't claim it is or isn't God. That implies an openness to possibilities.
I go back & forth between believing my passions are of God... or of my own self - or both. I'm forever learning!

When you say there is doubt about it being God, is it the traditional biblical God you're doubting?

From a medical point-of-view, "spiritual messages through thoughts or feelings" are all in one's brain, nervous & endocrine systems & otherwise meaningless.
However, it may be that they are not realizing the entire picture, because it isn't a visual picture, like they're used to studying.

When I try to contemplate higher dimensions, my impression of God/Creative Spiritual force... is beyond familiar understanding...
Like that clip you once posted about the 2-dimensional beings being scared of a 3rd dimensional finger...
Trying to wrap my mind around infinite possibilities within our universe, let alone infinite possibilities of infinite possible universes! Wooh! That gets my head spinning! Yeah...now take god out of the equation and continue loving self and others.
Instead of searching for god, or trying to define it...just get on with your life and love yourself and others.Yeah, taking God out of the equation would be important if God was considered shame, fear & that type of God-image that is portrayed in some religions.
Yet, what if God IS LOVE - of self & others?
IMO, Defining & translating love into action is of most importance - a trial & error-type learning.
It's so powerful to feel love within & for & from others!

Scibat
17-06-2011, 09:44 PM
God wouldn't say anything, he would just do this:

http://i51.tinypic.com/245***0.jpg

Because humans are stupid. :wink:

Rivendoah
17-06-2011, 09:50 PM
I am not so interested in what god has to say... I want him to shut up and listen... I have a few things I wish to say to him...

Lisa
18-06-2011, 03:28 PM
I am not so interested in what god has to say... I want him to shut up and listen... I have a few things I wish to say to him...

Make a new thread- "What you would say to God." :wink:

Mountain-Goat
20-06-2011, 02:10 AM
Hi AC, :smile:
Let me see if I understand you correctly... To you, God is the Creative Force that got this world going.
I currently conclude there had to be an intelligence that had directly or indirectly had something to do with the creation of life.
Apart from that unproven conclusion, I have no beliefs or rigid perceptions of what god is.
Do you think God continues to be a creative force in this world?
I do not know god to be able to assign attributes to it.
My 3-year-old asked a profound question I didn't know how to answer..."Where did God get everything?" I respect that you don't claim it is or isn't God. That implies an openness to possibilities.
I go back & forth between believing my passions are of God... or of my own self - or both. I'm forever learning!
I stick to what I know, and what I know is myself.
As I journey inside myself I am constantly discovering more of myself.
My perception and understanding of myself is in a state of constant change.
At the moment I see I am infinite. I have no proof of this as this is just what I see.
As I continue my inner journey, this observation becomes a reality via I am able to do things that were considered impossible,
either by me or by society.
My capacity is increasing, and as I look inside, I seem to go on forever.
I think I have enough infinity to occupy me without conjecturing about who or what god is.
I have a life to know, in that each step I take reveals more and more.
If there is a god, we will meet somewheres on this infinite journey.
If there isn't, then there isn't, and I will still continue my life journey.
When you say there is doubt about it being God, is it the traditional biblical God you're doubting?
No, I mean God, in any definition that anyone may desire to formulate.

From a medical point-of-view, "spiritual messages through thoughts or feelings" are all in one's brain, nervous & endocrine systems & otherwise meaningless.
However, it may be that they are not realizing the entire picture, because it isn't a visual picture, like they're used to studying.

People can claim anything they want.
People used to claim the earth was flat, based on their current knowledge.
It's still happening now, people claiming this that and the other are the facts of life.
Though there are many researchers who know that the current facts they discover about life are not the absolute truth of the matter.
It's just what one can currently see and they know there is more to it beyond their current level of understanding.
When I try to contemplate higher dimensions, my impression of God/Creative Spiritual force... is beyond familiar understanding...
Like that clip you once posted about the 2-dimensional beings being scared of a 3rd dimensional finger...
Trying to wrap my mind around infinite possibilities within our universe, let alone infinite possibilities of infinite possible universes! Wooh! That gets my head spinning!
Then go beyond your familar understanding.
Usually this requires a person to go beyond their current beliefs.
Yeah, taking God out of the equation would be important if God was considered shame, fear & that type of God-image that is portrayed in some religions.
Why stop there? Why not remove "god is the creator of life" out of the equations.
Remove all beliefs and see what is beyond them.
Yet, what if God IS LOVE - of self & others?
Yeah, what if? If god is love, why did he create lifeforms that have to kill other lifeforms for food so they can keep on living.
I seriously doubt the creator of life is love.
IMO, Defining & translating love into action is of most importance - a trial & error-type learning.
It's so powerful to feel love within & for & from others!
And if love is the ability/energy that makes life wonderful for self and all, then why bring another element into the equation?
Why bring a god into it all.
If love is the answer, then there is no need to contemplate or define or find god.

Of course others can contemplate anything they want.
They can define god or anything to whatever specifications they choose.
I'm interested in my life, my current earthly life, how to heal that and then how to help others heal.
When I leave this earthly existence, and if I will still exist in some other form, then I will embark on that journey in that environment.

Perspective
21-06-2011, 04:16 AM
...Yeah, what if? If god is love, why did he create lifeforms that have to kill other lifeforms for food so they can keep on living.
I seriously doubt the creator of life is love. Yeah, if you think of love as limited to making sure everyone is comfortable all of the time.
You're a parent - were you always that way with your kids?
Sometimes, didn't you have to do things they didn't like because it was for their higher good?
That is part of love too. And if love is the ability/energy that makes life wonderful for self and all, then why bring another element into the equation?Who said love is all wonderful?
(Drum roll please... or imagine the guy with the deep voice who describes movies...)
LOVE is wanting & striving for what we think is best in any given moment.
Sometimes, what we, or others think is best, is dead wrong!
Every now & then, among all of the billion possible pieces, we miraculously get 2 that fit just right! Why bring a god into it all.Humility.
And openness to possibilities beyond our current beliefs.
Realizing we don't know everything, even ourselves.
At this moment, countless interactions are taking place within our bodies - most of which we are oblivious about.
At this moment, countless interactions are taking place throughout the universe & beyond, most of which we are oblivious about.
At this moment, there are countless possibilities, most of which we've never considered.If love is the answer, then there is no need to contemplate or define or find god.Love is the answer - but there are countless possible interpretations of that answer, so defining love (or God) is indeed, part of our innate desire. It's what motivates us to do anything - good or bad - it's what we think is best in each moment. Figuring out what is best - what's the highest good is part of defining God/Love. Of course others can contemplate anything they want.
They can define god or anything to whatever specifications they choose.By my definition, everyone actively seeks out God - & what's considered best varies.
We're all trying in our own way, from our own perspective! I'm interested in my life, my current earthly life, how to heal that and then how to help others heal.
When I leave this earthly existence, and if I will still exist in some other form, then I will embark on that journey in that environment. I have similar goals - of healing & helping others heal.
Healing is not limited to a science or art, but rather harmonizing both intellect/logic & intuition/spirit.
IMO, God is love - this energy of spiritual progression - striving for what is best through trial & error.
Healing is figuring out what is the highest best, which is defining love & spirituality/God.

Mountain-Goat
24-06-2011, 01:57 AM
Yeah, if you think of love as limited to making sure everyone is comfortable all of the time.
You're a parent - were you always that way with your kids?
I've never expressed love to my kids by wanting to kill them in order to keep living.
Sometimes, didn't you have to do things they didn't like because it was for their higher good?
That is part of love too.
So killing is an expression of love?
Who said love is all wonderful?
Don't know. I said, if.
(Drum roll please... or imagine the guy with the deep voice who describes movies...)
LOVE is wanting & striving for what we think is best in any given moment.
No, that's your interpretation of it. No one knows what love is. All they can do is express their interpretation.
Sometimes, what we, or others think is best, is dead wrong!
Sometimes people think what they think is the truth.
Every now & then, among all of the billion possible pieces, we miraculously get 2 that fit just right!
It's not that hard to agree with another.
Humility.
Don't need to believe in a god to experience humility.
And openness to possibilities beyond our current beliefs.
Don't need to believe in a god to be open to possibilities beyond our current beliefs.
Realizing we don't know everything, even ourselves.
Don't need to believe in a god to realise we don't know everything.
At this moment, countless interactions are taking place within our bodies - most of which we are oblivious about.
At this moment, countless interactions are taking place throughout the universe & beyond, most of which we are oblivious about.
At this moment, there are countless possibilities, most of which we've never considered.
Don't need to believe in a god for these things to happen.

Love is the answer - but there are countless possible interpretations of that answer, so defining love (or God) is indeed, part of our innate desire.
It may be part of your innate desire, but it ain't mine.
I do not need to define love, I simply need to give and recieve it.
And in the experience of giving and recieving I will know what love is.
It's what motivates us to do anything - good or bad
So when people kill each other, they are motivated by love or by defining love?
- it's what we think is best in each moment.
This makes sense. This is why people kill others for natural resources, all they are doing is what's best for their own country.
Or why people are greedy. All they are doing is what they think is best.
Figuring out what is best - what's the highest good is part of defining God/Love.
Yeah, tell that to the christians when they murdered millions in the inquisitions.
All they were doing was what they thought best.
By my definition, everyone actively seeks out God - & what's considered best varies.
I wish you well with your beliefs.
We're all trying in our own way, from our own perspective! I have similar goals - of healing & helping others heal.
Healing is not limited to a science or art, but rather harmonizing both intellect/logic & intuition/spirit.
Heal yourself first.
IMO, God is love - this energy of spiritual progression - striving for what is best through trial & error.
Healing is figuring out what is the highest best, which is defining love & spirituality/God.
I wish you well on your journey.

Thinker108
24-06-2011, 04:12 AM
first-God don’t know any language
second-when you meet God you will forget to hear
third-Every voice, you are hearing now is God`s voice
fourth-God and spirit can never meet but God and God can meet.
it is not the ending
Thinker

Perspective
24-06-2011, 08:45 PM
So killing is an expression of love? It's not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of love, but when I think about all of the types of killing going on within our bodies, it may be. Our bodies' immune systems are always keeping cell reproduction in check by killing cells, otherwise cancer develops. When we heal from a bacterial infection or virus, isn't our healing an expression of love? Yet, those viruses & bacteria died.
Every creature serves a purpose (love - striving for what they think is best)... most go on instict. Yet, as human beings, we have the unique ability to think complexly, not just on instinct. We choose... yet we don't get to choose the consequences of those choices.
Killing wouldn't happen, unless someone in the moment of killing believed it was what was best (whether they were right or wrong). It was misdirected energy, but it was motivated energy, which love is. We are love - motivated energy - for good or bad, depending on our choices. No, that's your interpretation of it. No one knows what love is. All they can do is express their interpretation.:smile: IMO, That's mostly what love is - interpretation of what each thinks is best in any given moment... & the motivating energy to act on it.It's not that hard to agree with another.Who said anything about agreeing? :D
What I meant by 2 pieces fitting - is seredipity or spiritual connections that go beyond psychology or science.
Don't need to believe in a god to experience humility.
Don't need to believe in a god to be open to possibilities beyond our current beliefs.
Don't need to believe in a god to realise we don't know everything.
Don't need to believe in a god for these things to happen.According to my definition of God we do!
If God is the highest good, the highest energy, most of which is beyond our understanding, than it is necessary to believe in God to experience humility, be open to new perspectives & realize we don't know everything. Our very existence happening is dependent upon higher energies we don't fully understand. It may be part of your innate desire, but it ain't mine.
I do not need to define love, I simply need to give and recieve it.
And in the experience of giving and recieving I will know what love is. In the experiencing of giving & receiving love, you are fulfilling your need to define love. Heal yourself first.I'm trying, as are others. It's a life-time process. Yet, I won't wait until I'm completely healed before I help others heal. As I heal one aspect, I understand & can empathize with another going through that same type of healing. I wish you well on your journey.And you, AC. :hug3:

Mountain-Goat
27-06-2011, 01:08 AM
third-Every voice, you are hearing now is God`s voice
How can this be when...
first-God don’t know any language

Also...
third-Every voice, you are hearing now is God`s voice
second-when you meet God you will forget to hear
If I am hearing god's voice in other's voices but I haven't forgotten to hear these voices, then it isn't god's voice, 'cus to hear someone is to meet them.

fourth-God and spirit can never meet but God and God can meet.
But if...
first-God don’t know any language
Then that will be a most awkward meeting.
Lots of head scratching and feet shuffling I imagine as they try to communicate to each other.
it is not the ending
Thinker
I agree, it's not the end. I have no idea what you theories are.

Mountain-Goat
27-06-2011, 01:42 AM
It's not the first thing that comes to mind when I think of love, but when I think about all of the types of killing going on within our bodies, it may be. Our bodies' immune systems are always keeping cell reproduction in check by killing cells, otherwise cancer develops. When we heal from a bacterial infection or virus, isn't our healing an expression of love? Yet, those viruses & bacteria died.
~laughs~ I was thinking this very thing as I've been reading my Biology book.
I was wondering what a Buddhist(harm no other life?) does when faced with killing a virus,
or for eating vegetables for that matter as tests show that plants think and feel.

However, I do not know if killing viruses aka healing self is an expression of love.
It seems more to me to be a survival issue seeing as the bacteria and virus were already attacking self.
Self defence, self preservation.
Every creature serves a purpose (love - striving for what they think is best)... most go on instict. Yet, as human beings, we have the unique ability to think complexly, not just on instinct. We choose... yet we don't get to choose the consequences of those choices.
Those that think before they act will have some idea of what the consequences are.
If they do this they will choose differently.
Also, if they think and have a fair idea of the consequences, then they are choosing the consequences.
But alas, some don't think of the consequences.
The only time the consequences enters their mind is when the consequences have hit them square in the face.

Also, instinct is thinking. It's just done unconsciously because it's a learned pattern.

Killing wouldn't happen, unless someone in the moment of killing believed it was what was best (whether they were right or wrong). It was misdirected energy, but it was motivated energy, which love is. We are love - motivated energy - for good or bad, depending on our choices.
IMO, That's mostly what love is - interpretation of what each thinks is best in any given moment... & the motivating energy to act on it.
(love - striving for what they think is best)
Going by your definition of love, when a country invades another country and kills the inhabitants for the natural resources,
they are motivated by love.

According to my definition of God we do!
If it's only your definition, then it has nothing to do with others, only you and those that agree with your definition.
It's your definition, not a law that others have to abide by or suffer the consequences.
It's not the Spanish Inquisition.

If God is the highest good, the highest energy, most of which is beyond our understanding, than it is necessary to believe in God to experience humility, be open to new perspectives & realize we don't know everything.
That's right...if.
What are you believing in if you have no or little understanding of it?
And of course the little understanding of god is merely speculation, theory,
so even the little understanding one has is not verified as fact.

Our very existence happening is dependent upon higher energies we don't fully understand.
Is it?
How can this be when you have no understanding of what these higher energies are?
The very term 'higher energies' is simply a conjecture.
In the experiencing of giving & receiving love, you are fulfilling your need to define love.
That's right. I don't need to define love, I simply need to live it and in that living, in the experiencing of it, it is defined.
Not in words, but in deed. In energy expressed, not energy talked about.

I'm trying, as are others. It's a life-time process. Yet, I won't wait until I'm completely healed before I help others heal. As I heal one aspect, I understand & can empathize with another going through that same type of healing.
I never mentioned complete healing.

Thinker108
27-06-2011, 05:41 AM
How can this be when...


Also...

If I am hearing god's voice in other's voices but I haven't forgotten to hear these voices, then it isn't god's voice, 'cus to hear someone is to meet them.


But if...

Then that will be a most awkward meeting.
Lots of head scratching and feet shuffling I imagine as they try to communicate to each other.

I agree, it's not the end. I have no idea what you theories are.


Every line is complete do not compare. Your style of analysis is interesting. Think with a peaceful mind, you will find the answers.
Thanks for response…...

Lovely
27-06-2011, 06:31 AM
"Make me a sandwich. I am hungry."
-God

astroboy
27-06-2011, 07:41 AM
"Make me a sandwich. I am hungry."
-God

Now I'm hungry because I am a son of God.

breeakthenorms
27-06-2011, 07:47 AM
Dear Friends,
God is saying following:

Help to every human witch is in difficult.
Daily remember me from hart.
don’t smoke.
don’t eat meat.
don’t drink alcohol.
Last thing is that love to all the natural gift.

Thanking you
Gandhi Charan Prajapati

astroboy
27-06-2011, 01:13 PM
God is screaming at us on top of his voice. He's saying, "Come back home, haven't you spent enough time playing already?"

Lisa
27-06-2011, 02:05 PM
God is screaming at us on top of his voice. He's saying, "Come back home, haven't you spent enough time playing already?"

I like that. But I wonder how God screams. How does silence scream?

Lisa
27-06-2011, 02:07 PM
Astroboy, there's something about your avatar that is enticing!

LightFilledHeart
27-06-2011, 02:19 PM
Since I believe God dwells within us AS us, then it would follow that every time an aspect of God's creation... human, creature, plant, or mineral!..."speaks", God has spoken.

Lisa
27-06-2011, 02:34 PM
Since I believe God dwells within us AS us, then it would follow that every time an aspect of God's creation... human, creature, plant, or mineral!..."speaks", God has spoken.

Yes, that is one perspective. But where does this speaking come from? What allows the speaking to be? The depth of the ocean is silent and still and not dependent on the sound of the waves on the beach. But the sound of the waves are dependent on the silence. All sound comes out of silence. If it were all sound, who could hear? But there can be all silence, which never requires sound to be.

It is said that silence is the language of God.

Sundialed
27-06-2011, 02:55 PM
oh geez, they haven't realized they are one human family living on/in one house.

7luminaries
27-06-2011, 06:24 PM
This:


[ ]


(with love)


:love9:

astroboy
28-06-2011, 09:12 AM
Yes, that is one perspective. But where does this speaking come from? What allows the speaking to be? The depth of the ocean is silent and still and not dependent on the sound of the waves on the beach. But the sound of the waves are dependent on the silence. All sound comes out of silence. If it were all sound, who could hear? But there can be all silence, which never requires sound to be.

It is said that silence is the language of God.

...and I'm enticed by your curiosity of the Sound of Silence.
Much has been discussed about this in this thread - Inner Sound Current - thread opened by Xan. http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3703&page=11

Mountain-Goat
29-06-2011, 01:32 AM
first-God don’t know any language
second-when you meet God you will forget to hear
third-Every voice, you are hearing now is God`s voice
fourth-God and spirit can never meet but God and God can meet.
it is not the ending

Every line is complete do not compare. Your style of analysis is interesting. Think with a peaceful mind, you will find the answers.
Thanks for response…...
I wasn't comparing.

Every statement was describing an attribute of god.
Yes, each line was a complete statement unto itself.
But when the lines are evaluated as a whole, the math don't add up.

Please share how you came to the conclusion my mind is not at peace.

Thinker108
29-06-2011, 03:49 AM
I wasn't comparing.

Every statement was describing an attribute of god.
Yes, each line was a complete statement unto itself.
But when the lines are evaluated as a whole, the math don't add up.

Please share how you came to the conclusion my mind is not at peace.
you are forgetting something, I was praising your analyzing style HaHaHa
I know you have peaceful mind
according to sacred scriptures God have opposite qualities.
I am sharing my feeling I describe God always for my inner enjoyment and for his devotion.
That is not all….

Mountain-Goat
01-07-2011, 12:36 AM
you are forgetting something, I was praising your analyzing style HaHaHa
HaHaHa, how could I forget something that was never told to me.
You said it was interesting, and a person can be interested in things they like or dislike.
ie: People don't like problems, yet they are interested in them in order to find a solution.
Your post did not convey which category you chose to place my analytical style in, so I did not forget.


I know you have peaceful mind
If you know I have a peaceful mind, then there is no logical reason for you to encourage me to have a peaceful mind in order to find answers.
I would already have the answers because I have a peaceful mind.
So please, share how you came to your original conclusion my mind is not at peace.

Thinker108
01-07-2011, 03:13 AM
HaHaHa, how could I forget something that was never told to me.
You said it was interesting, and a person can be interested in things they like or dislike.
ie: People don't like problems, yet they are interested in them in order to find a solution.
Your post did not convey which category you chose to place my analytical style in, so I did not forget.



If you know I have a peaceful mind, then there is no logical reason for you to encourage me to have a peaceful mind in order to find answers.
I would already have the answers because I have a peaceful mind.
So please, share how you came to your original conclusion my mind is not at peace.

Hi Alternate carpak
I said Think with peaceful mind it not means that I am doubtful for your peace of mind.
Your analysis is interesting and I like it, OK Ha HA HA

Your style shows that how seriously you read the posts. It is very nice.
That is not all
Thinker

Mountain-Goat
01-07-2011, 03:26 AM
Hi Alternate carpak
I said Think with peaceful mind it not means that I am doubtful for your peace of mind.
Then if your final conclusion is I do have peaceful mind, then I already have answers.
But how can this be if I have questions.
Maybe peaceful mind has questions too.
I think so. Peaceful mind is infinite and questions and answers are contained in the infinite.

Peaceful mind is still mind.
With still mind, one can see answers. But in order to see answers one must be able to see questions.
Answers without questions is crazy. Questions with answers is not crazy.

But those questions were for you, and you did not answer them.
Do you have peaceful mind Thinker108?
If you do then you have answers to those questions, and if so, please share.

Your analysis is interesting and I like it, OK Ha HA HA
YAY !!!
Business horoscope charts
Your style shows that how seriously you read the posts. It is very nice.
That is not all
Thinker
You should see me breathe.

Thinker108
01-07-2011, 07:18 AM
Then if your final conclusion is I do have peaceful mind, then I already have answers.
But how can this be if I have questions.
Maybe peaceful mind has questions too.
I think so. Peaceful mind is infinite and questions and answers are contained in the infinite.

Peaceful mind is still mind.
With still mind, one can see answers. But in order to see answers one must be able to see questions.
Answers without questions is crazy. Questions with answers is not crazy.

But those questions were for you, and you did not answer them.
Do you have peaceful mind Thinker108?
If you do then you have answers to those questions, and if so, please share.


YAY !!!

You should see me breathe.


There can be question and answer in a peaceful mind also.
peace of mind is a state of mind
but
spirit is stateless
peace of spirit is causeless
peace of spirit never changes to noise
there are no questions and answers
because there are no comparison
because there are not two
there are only one
The peace……..
Thee are twp words Shanti and prashanti
Shanti-peace of mind
prashanti-peace itself

Lisa
01-07-2011, 06:27 PM
Alternate Carpark-You should see me breathe.


So Awesome!

Lisa
01-07-2011, 06:32 PM
A peaceful mind is going beyond the mind, no identification to the mind.

No mind.

Ahhhhhhhh

Mountain-Goat
04-07-2011, 01:01 AM
There can be question and answer in a peaceful mind also.
peace of mind is a state of mind
but
spirit is stateless
peace of spirit is causeless
peace of spirit never changes to noise
there are no questions and answers
because there are no comparison
because there are not two
there are only one
The peace……..
Thee are twp words Shanti and prashanti
Shanti-peace of mind
prashanti-peace itself
That's all very fascinating Thinker108, but what has any of that 'spirit' stuff got to do with your original encouragement
for me to have a peaceful mind in order to find answers?

Mountain-Goat
04-07-2011, 01:16 AM
A peaceful mind is going beyond the mind, no identification to the mind.

No mind.

Ahhhhhhhh
I'm more prone to seeing a peaceful mind as a mind that is currently clear of any thoughts.

I used to be in such constant inner turmoil upside my head from the depression and anxiety I used to suffer from.
These thoughts would manifest as more turmoil of the mind, or as emotional turmoil or even physical dis-ease.

But in regards to the turbulent seas of my mind and emotions, I have discovered, as have many others,
how to maintain a state of calm in both mind and emotions.

In this calm state, thoughts and emotions are still there, but they are in a state of rest.
Still there as in thoughts and feelings still exist, I still have the full range of these abilities, but I am currently not engaging any of them.

ie: emotions. I am not an emotionless person. I simply prefer to be in a calm emotionless state. Same too with thoughts.

Instead of my inner life being like the stormy seas with 100 foot waves, my inner life, when I activate it,
is like a still lake that reflects reality perfectly.
Though precisely, as an imperfect human, of course I do not reflect it perfectly.
There are still small ripples. But compared to the stormy ocean I used to have, this lake is still.

If I had a choice between sorrow, joy or calm...I would always choose calm.
Of course joy is better than sorrow, but calm(no emotion) is way better than joy.

Same with thoughts. I enjoy the thought explorations I embark on, but I prefer no thinking observing.

Lisa
04-07-2011, 06:07 PM
I'm more prone to seeing a peaceful mind as a mind that is currently clear of any thoughts.

I agree. Or if thoughts come they just pass on by.

I used to be in such constant inner turmoil upside my head from the depression and anxiety I used to suffer from.
These thoughts would manifest as more turmoil of the mind, or as emotional turmoil or even physical dis-ease.

Same here.

But in regards to the turbulent seas of my mind and emotions, I have discovered, as have many others,
how to maintain a state of calm in both mind and emotions.

In this calm state, thoughts and emotions are still there, but they are in a state of rest.
Still there as in thoughts and feelings still exist, I still have the full range of these abilities, but I am currently not engaging any of them.

Totally relate- yes.

ie: emotions. I am not an emotionless person. I simply prefer to be in a calm emotionless state. Same too with thoughts.

Instead of my inner life being like the stormy seas with 100 foot waves, my inner life, when I activate it,
is like a still lake that reflects reality perfectly.
Though precisely, as an imperfect human, of course I do not reflect it perfectly.
There are still small ripples. But compared to the stormy ocean I used to have, this lake is still.

Same. yes.

If I had a choice between sorrow, joy or calm...I would always choose calm.
Of course joy is better than sorrow, but calm(no emotion) is way better than joy.

The way your using joy, I would say happiness. For happiness is emotion to me, while joy is not an emotion. (in the way I am using it) Peace (calm) and aliveness together is joy. It is subtle at first, a twinge of feeling this joy. But expands.
Not emotion, but feeling.The same feeling that is present with felt oneness with Being. This is joy.

The aliveness is felt by putting one's attention in the body.

Same with thoughts. I enjoy the thought explorations I embark on, but I prefer no thinking observing.

Me too. Good post, Alternate Carpark :hug3:

Has the observer observed itself?

indoorFlakes
04-07-2011, 07:26 PM
Me too. Good post, Alternate Carpark :hug3:

Has the observer observed itself?

hi...lisa.... i think that... well, know...rather... even if the observer observes itself... it's still observed... therefore still conceptual... and therefore still the observed.... therefore, not the end of the game... cheers!....

moke64916
04-07-2011, 07:33 PM
Nothing...........silence........bliss...........e xperience through us...........

Mountain-Goat
05-07-2011, 05:19 AM
I agree. Or if thoughts come they just pass on by.

The way your using joy, I would say happiness. For happiness is emotion to me, while joy is not an emotion. (in the way I am using it) Peace (calm) and aliveness together is joy. It is subtle at first, a twinge of feeling this joy. But expands.
Not emotion, but feeling.The same feeling that is present with felt oneness with Being. This is joy.

The aliveness is felt by putting one's attention in the body.
Me too. Good post, Alternate Carpark :hug3:

Has the observer observed itself?
It's a wonderful feeling to be in control of self to be able to simply let thoughts and emotions simply exist without attaching to them or be influenced by them.

To observe self, during moments of pleasure or pain is a most enlightening experience and sure does give one a whole new outlook on life.
My own life and the life all around me.


Ah yes, intuition was prodding me to not use 'joy', but I went with it.
Still learning about surface emotions and deeper inner emotions, is the simplist way I can describe them at the moment.

Like you I regard happiness as an emotion, be it a surface emotion or an emotion that responds to some type of event or stimuli,
whether it be an external event or an internal memory or thought.
Whereas joy appears to be deeper in and is not subject to events or stimuli. It's more of a state of being.

But even with that said, I am still observing and experimenting to figure out is this deeper joy always there,
and that it only appears to manifest because I choose to go look and I see it,
or is it in fact a deeper response to the deeper observations/experiences I have of reality?
So, is it a state of being or simply still a response from deeper stimuli of the events of my life?
I cannot tell at this time.

Lisa, I like what you have said regarding attention.
It's such a simple process, to take the time to stop one's busy life and simply observe with dedicated attention.

Kids do it all the time. They are focused observers of many things that adults classify as mundane or unimportant.
Many moons ago, much to the bewilderment of those that I shared this story with,
I spent 40 minutes lying on my back at a park back up in brissie observing a small piece of broken twig.
Marveling at the rings inside, the different colors of the inner wood and the outer bark, the color and texture of the bark, the swirling lines that reflected the shape of the wod inside.
It was a most tranquil day that day.

So to focus that same amount of attention on self and the wonders and complexities contained within,
well, I still marvel at how amazing and beautiful a human being is.

The bonus of inner observation of course is, healing.
Problems are easily seen on the surface, thoughts, feelings and illogical behaviour, but it's the inner explorations that expose the mechanics of them and the solutions.

Has the observer observed itself?
It is said in some Eastern philosophies that when one has observed the observer, that there is an observer observing all that.
Then when one has seen that observer, there is another observer deeper still.
~laughs~ Ouch, when does it end?

I currently am focused on knowing self and fixing the outer mess.
Who can say what I will discover as I continue my inner journey.
Is there some final point, some ultimate original observer?
Who knows, I'll simply keep going in and whatever is there will be revealed.
No need to speculate when one has the ability to actually go find out.

Lisa
05-07-2011, 02:49 PM
It's a wonderful feeling to be in control of self to be able to simply let thoughts and emotions simply exist without attaching to them or be influenced by them.

Yes it is! (though I wouldn't say control of self. More like the mind not being in control. But these are just ways of speaking. :smile: )

To observe self, during moments of pleasure or pain is a most enlightening experience and sure does give one a whole new outlook on life.
My own life and the life all around me.

Agree.

Ah yes, intuition was prodding me to not use 'joy', but I went with it.
Still learning about surface emotions and deeper inner emotions, is the simplist way I can describe them at the moment.

I hear you.

Like you I regard happiness as an emotion, be it a surface emotion or an emotion that responds to some type of event or stimuli,
whether it be an external event or an internal memory or thought.
Whereas joy appears to be deeper in and is not subject to events or stimuli. It's more of a state of being.

Exactly!

But even with that said, I am still observing and experimenting to figure out is this deeper joy always there,
and that it only appears to manifest because I choose to go look and I see it,
or is it in fact a deeper response to the deeper observations/experiences I have of reality?

I'd say all!

So, is it a state of being or simply still a response from deeper stimuli of the events of my life?
I cannot tell at this time.

I go with both. But the main thing is feeling it. :hug3:

Lisa, I like what you have said regarding attention.
It's such a simple process, to take the time to stop one's busy life and simply observe with dedicated attention.

Agree. Attention is the key. Where our attention is is where we are.

Kids do it all the time. They are focused observers of many things that adults classify as mundane or unimportant.
Many moons ago, much to the bewilderment of those that I shared this story with,
I spent 40 minutes lying on my back at a park back up in brissie observing a small piece of broken twig.
Marveling at the rings inside, the different colors of the inner wood and the outer bark, the color and texture of the bark, the swirling lines that reflected the shape of the wod inside.
It was a most tranquil day that day.

This was excellent, AC.

There is a practice that is just what you did. But also looking at the space and stillness around the broken twig. And then around the branch, maybe. Looking at space and stillness is a powerful practice. The mind freaks out at first- "I ain't look'n at nothing!" "There's nothing there to look at." But sticking with it, miracles happen. That same space around the broken twig, is soon felt and noticed within one's self. (oops, I'm giving away the ending. :angel8: )

So to focus that same amount of attention on self and the wonders and complexities contained within,
well, I still marvel at how amazing and beautiful a human being is.

Me too. Human BEINGS. Not human doings or minds.

The bonus of inner observation of course is, healing.
Problems are easily seen on the surface, thoughts, feelings and illogical behaviour, but it's the inner explorations that expose the mechanics of them and the solutions.

Has the observer observed itself?
It is said in some Eastern philosophies that when one has observed the observer, that there is an observer observing all that.
Then when one has seen that observer, there is another observer deeper still.
~laughs~ Ouch, when does it end?

lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)

Being still is essential.

I currently am focused on knowing self and fixing the outer mess.
Who can say what I will discover as I continue my inner journey.
Is there some final point, some ultimate original observer?
Who knows, I'll simply keep going in and whatever is there will be revealed.

No need to speculate when one has the ability to actually go find out.

Yeah buddy! :thumbsup:

BlueSky
08-07-2011, 01:09 AM
Where our attention is is where we are

We are always where we are. What we believe about where our attention is something that will never go away. We can expose our beliefs as we play with them and see that they are just not known, that they are ideas and points of view only which helps to alleviate the veil of ignorance keeping us from living a better life but we will never transcend that which makes us individuals. Our pasts, our experiences, our feelings, our bodies, our hopes, our subconscious is who we are.
It is misleading to lead others to believe that we can walk around like a blank slate and magically experience life as if life exists without us. We are life...we are not the observers of life......we are life.
I don't mean to pick apart what you said. I just wanted to pick apart the energy behind what you said.
You can't get there from here...........it is simply an idea that there is somewhere to get to that makes it real for you...if it even is real for you.
Blessings, james

Mountain-Goat
08-07-2011, 04:51 AM
Yes it is! (though I wouldn't say control of self. More like the mind not being in control. But these are just ways of speaking.
This is why I call it self control.
When my emotions and thoughts control me, that is when I am out of control.
This is when circumstances can influence my decisions.
But when I, whatever this I is, my consciousness, my center, my core, when that is in control,
it controls my mind, which controls my thoughts and emotions.
It's like there is me, and I have an avatar in this physical realm that I call Alternate Carpark.
This avatar, has a body, emotions and a mind. These are mine, I am responsible for them.
Who or what this I is that owns and is responsible for the avatar Alternate Carpark, I do not know what it is.
It's awareness, consciousness. And this awareness chooses to be responsible for the 'body' of Alternate Carpark.

What's been happening all my life is I have gone from being unable to control my avatar,
to this current state of having a fair amount of control of it. This self control I call freedom.

I have control of my mind to actively engage in thought, or not to.
I have control to engage my emotions or not.
The third part of this journey is to have control of my body, at the level of the cells and atoms, which is simply energy.

Agree. Attention is the key. Where our attention is is where we are.

A huge part of the complete healing of depression is based on attention.
And the issue is constant and focused attention, not sporadic attention given just because one feels like it or is forced to because of circumstances.

There's a few of the interviewees in the mega extended version of What The Bleep that speak of focused intention and how that is what is required to change ones' life.
This was excellent, AC.

There is a practice that is just what you did. But also looking at the space and stillness around the broken twig. And then around the branch, maybe. Looking at space and stillness is a powerful practice. The mind freaks out at first- "I ain't look'n at nothing!" "There's nothing there to look at." But sticking with it, miracles happen. That same space around the broken twig, is soon felt and noticed within one's self. (oops, I'm giving away the ending. :angel8: )

When I get into that state of intently observing something, with a mind clear of thoughts, I am exposed to an infinite expanse.
Sometimes my body reacts to this rush of expanse and I have to pull back because the feelings are quite intense.

One day I was looking at a word in a book. No particular word. And as I switched to clear mind observation mode,
time stood still, all around me was silence and my inner sight zoomed closer to the word.
As I continued to zoom in, I had reached the page and I was focused on the gaps inbetween the letters.
Then I went beyond the physical, past the uneven ink of the letters and the grain of the paper into the energy realm beyond the symbolism of the physical realm.
What lay before me was an infinite space of nothingness.
Yet in this nothingness, as my mental perception of nothingness is blackness, in this nothingness was an infinite expanse of information.

My mind could not percieve this information, but my heart/soul? could sense it.
In those times, I am speechless and I choose to remain internally speechless, because as soon as I utter a single word in my head, I come back out of that realm.

I am left with a profound awe and I do not bother to try to mentally comprehend it or analyse it.
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)

Being still is essential.

At the moment on my journey, I choose to remain at the "level" of I am a consciousness that is interfaced with a form known as Alternate Carpark.
I have lots to understand and fix in regards to this relationship before venturing further.

TerraStorm
17-08-2011, 07:21 AM
"Don't be too hard on yourself" hehehe

Lisa
17-08-2011, 02:42 PM
Where our attention is is where we are

We are always where we are. What we believe about where our attention is something that will never go away. We can expose our beliefs as we play with them and see that they are just not known, that they are ideas and points of view only which helps to alleviate the veil of ignorance keeping us from living a better life but we will never transcend that which makes us individuals. Our pasts, our experiences, our feelings, our bodies, our hopes, our subconscious is who we are.
It is misleading to lead others to believe that we can walk around like a blank slate and magically experience life as if life exists without us. We are life...we are not the observers of life......we are life.
I don't mean to pick apart what you said. I just wanted to pick apart the energy behind what you said.
You can't get there from here...........it is simply an idea that there is somewhere to get to that makes it real for you...if it even is real for you.
Blessings, james

I forgot about this thread. :rolleyes:

Your views are your views.

But I could reply to a Christian fundamentalist's post with more ease.

There are more holes in your post than in Swiss Cheese.

You're going to think what you think and that's it.

But I hear God say, "I'll take it on Rye." :duckie:

Lisa
17-08-2011, 03:02 PM
I’m sorry it took me so long to reply Alternate Carpark!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa
Yes it is! (though I wouldn't say control of self. More like the mind not being in control. But these are just ways of speaking.

This is why I call it self control.
When my emotions and thoughts control me, that is when I am out of control.
This is when circumstances can influence my decisions.
But when I, whatever this I is, my consciousness, my center, my core, when that is in control,
it controls my mind, which controls my thoughts and emotions.


Ok- it’s just the word “control”- I see what you’re saying.

It's like there is me, and I have an avatar in this physical realm that I call Alternate Carpark.
This avatar, has a body, emotions and a mind. These are mine, I am responsible for them.
Who or what this I is that owns and is responsible for the avatar Alternate Carpark, I do not know what it is.
It's awareness, consciousness. And this awareness chooses to be responsible for the 'body' of Alternate Carpark.

What's been happening all my life is I have gone from being unable to control my avatar,
to this current state of having a fair amount of control of it. This self control I call freedom.

Ok.

I have control of my mind to actively engage in thought, or not to.
I have control to engage my emotions or not.
The third part of this journey is to have control of my body, at the level of the cells and atoms, which is simply energy.

Quote:
Agree. Attention is the key. Where our attention is is where we are.

A huge part of the complete healing of depression is based on attention.
And the issue is constant and focused attention, not sporadic attention given just because one feels like it or is forced to because of circumstances.


I agree.

There's a few of the interviewees in the mega extended version of What The Bleep that speak of focused intention and how that is what is required to change ones' life.

If What The Bleep helps, that’s good. For me it is not helpful.

Quote:
This was excellent, AC.
There is a practice that is just what you did. But also looking at the space and stillness around the broken twig. And then around the branch, maybe. Looking at space and stillness is a powerful practice. The mind freaks out at first- "I ain't look'n at nothing!" "There's nothing there to look at." But sticking with it, miracles happen. That same space around the broken twig, is soon felt and noticed within one's self. (oops, I'm giving away the ending. )

When I get into that state of intently observing something, with a mind clear of thoughts, I am exposed to an infinite expanse.


YES.

Sometimes my body reacts to this rush of expanse and I have to pull back because the feelings are quite intense.

One day I was looking at a word in a book. No particular word. And as I switched to clear mind observation mode,
time stood still, all around me was silence and my inner sight zoomed closer to the word.
As I continued to zoom in, I had reached the page and I was focused on the gaps inbetween the letters.
Then I went beyond the physical, past the uneven ink of the letters and the grain of the paper into the energy realm beyond the symbolism of the physical realm.
What lay before me was an infinite space of nothingness.


You’re killing me! I love it!!

Yet in this nothingness, as my mental perception of nothingness is blackness, in this nothingness was an infinite expanse of information.


For me it is infinite expanse- but no information.

My mind could not percieve this information, but my heart/soul? could sense it.
In those times, I am speechless and I choose to remain internally speechless, because as soon as I utter a single word in my head, I come back out of that realm.

I am left with a profound awe and I do not bother to try to mentally comprehend it or analyse it.

:thumbsup:

Quote:
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)

Being still is essential.

At the moment on my journey, I choose to remain at the "level" of I am a consciousness that is interfaced with a form known as Alternate Carpark.
I have lots to understand and fix in regards to this relationship before venturing further.

:smile:
__________________

When words become superfluous, because the moment is filled to the rim with meaning...life irresistibly starts talking about itself,
and puts one right into the middle of fascinating stories...provided one listens.—author unknown

Mountain-Goat
19-08-2011, 02:32 AM
I’m sorry it took me so long to reply Alternate Carpark!
No probs Lisa. I am rarely concerned about time.

Ok- it’s just the word “control”- I see what you’re saying.
I like that we can discuss our unique perceptions of a word and come to some kind of understanding.
A word can mean different things to people. It's just a matter of sharing to expose these differences.
A lot of trouble between people is due to not sharing each's view or interpretation.
If What The Bleep helps, that’s good. For me it is not helpful.
~laughs~ I can understand you view about that doco Lisa.
These last few weeks, while watching it (I watch certain docos repeatedly to gain as much from them. I learnt a long time ago of a study that showed an average person needs to read or listen to something 7 times before it really sinks in, before they get the fullness of it.)
But as I have been watching the doco lately, I have found that I do not agree with some of what they are saying...
Hmmm, not disagree. I just have begun to realise that they are not manifesting in their lives what they are "preaching".
The Ramtha chick is the best example. And if they are not manifesting in their lives what they preach, then that means that what they proclaim to be truth is merely a theory.

I do not dispute that their theory is false, just that what they speak is not truth, it's just theory, so far.
If someone is going to proclaim something as a truth and it's not evident in their life, then I will have serious doubts as to their claims.

I laugh at myself because I began to see how easy it is to believe without proof when what is presented is so wonderful.

You’re killing me! I love it!!
YAY !
For me it is infinite expanse- but no information.
Well, I can only speculate I have observed information due to the transformation that happens to me after each of these experiences.
I sense I am observing something that I assume the mind cannot decipher. Sort of like how you get the pricklies on the back of your neck when a ghost is near.
The 5 senses cannot decipher it, but there is another sense that can.
There is no way to prove it in the 5 sense realm, but there is an inner knowing something is going on.
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)
But what do you mean by "person".
Do you mean the physical-mind-emotion person, or the consciousness that is aware of that form of the person?
Being still is essential.
Yes. One cannot clearly observe is one moving.
The stiller inside, the more clearer one can observe.

3dnow
19-08-2011, 04:19 PM
What would God say.

:tongue:

3d

Lisa
20-08-2011, 02:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa
I’m sorry it took me so long to reply Alternate Carpark!

No probs Lisa. I am rarely concerned about time.
Teach me!

Quote:
Ok- it’s just the word “control”- I see what you’re saying.

I like that we can discuss our unique perceptions of a word and come to some kind of understanding.
A word can mean different things to people. It's just a matter of sharing to expose these differences.
A lot of trouble between people is due to not sharing each's view or interpretation.
I couldn’t agree more.

Quote:
If What The Bleep helps, that’s good. For me it is not helpful.
~laughs~ I can understand you view about that doco Lisa.
lol, that feels good. I had to look up “doco”. At first I thought it was an ancient Hindu word.


These last few weeks, while watching it (I watch certain docos repeatedly to gain as much from them. I learnt a long time ago of a study that showed an average person needs to read or listen to something 7 times before it really sinks in, before they get the fullness of it.)
I didn’t know that. But anything that catches my attention I watch over and over too.


But as I have been watching the doco lately, I have found that I do not agree with some of what they are saying...
Hmmm, not disagree. I just have begun to realise that they are not manifesting in their lives what they are "preaching".
Good observation.


The Ramtha chick is the best example. And if they are not manifesting in their lives what they preach, then that means that what they proclaim to be truth is merely a theory.

I do not dispute that their theory is false, just that what they speak is not truth, it's just theory, so far.
If someone is going to proclaim something as a truth and it's not evident in their life, then I will have serious doubts as to their claims.
True. My mother has been a student of Ramtha for some 40 years. So I’ve been exposed!
Just on the point you’re mentioning, my mother- who has done all the work and gone to the camp etc, has not been able to manifest- or if she has- not been able to keep it for long.
Another thing, Ramtha has told his students for decades to move to the country, become self-sufficient for “the days to come.” My mother, a true believer, has not been able to manifest that, until now. She sold her house 2 days ago and is moving to the country. She is moving in with an impossible man and into a piece of **** trailer. So, something is askew in Ramtha’s teachings.
The thing about What The Bleep- it isn’t new, manifestation through thought and intent and focus has been around a long time. And it’s true in that it can be done. As you mentioned, and I did, it doesn’t always work. But it can work. One can get really good at manifesting in the outer what they desire.
My point is, is that it? Even if I could manifest everything I wanted on the outer, I still die.
Am I here on earth to get a nice car, a fine house, a lovely relationship? “That’s not enough!” Says my suffering. And also it’s not what I am here for. I am here to realize who I am. And that has nothing to do with getting what I want in the outer.
And we all have dysfunctions, and for those who are talented in using thought for manifestation- once they get their great job or house, tick-tock- that which is dysfunctional in them comes out- and before long problems and troubles comes.
Watching thought, no thought, beyond thought is a way to realize who I am.
Using thought to better myself in the world will, at best, just get me better things in the world.


I laugh at myself because I began to see how easy it is to believe without proof when what is presented is so wonderful.
Insightful, AC.


Quote:
You’re killing me! I love it!!

YAY !
:hug3:

Quote:
For me it is infinite expanse- but no information.


Well, I can only speculate I have observed information due to the transformation that happens to me after each of these experiences.
I sense I am observing something that I assume the mind cannot decipher. Sort of like how you get the pricklies on the back of your neck when a ghost is near.
The 5 senses cannot decipher it, but there is another sense that can.
There is no way to prove it in the 5 sense realm, but there is an inner knowing something is going on.
Yes, I’m on board. It was about words, again. I saw “information” as mental. But the kind of information you meant is not.



But there is an inner knowing something is going on.

:thumbsup:


Quote:
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)


But what do you mean by "person".
Do you mean the physical-mind-emotion person,
Yes. The self that comes from identification with mind and story. Me and mine. The personal self.

or the consciousness that is aware of that form of the person?
This is it. And without identification with mind, this is realized as who ‘I am”.
Not the personal self, but the consciousness that is aware, even aware of a self that’s still thinking it is.

Quote:
Being still is essential.


Yes. One cannot clearly observe is one moving.
The stiller inside, the more clearer one can observe.

:icon_flower:

astroboy
23-08-2011, 02:38 PM
God said, I gave you all the knowledge and wisdom so that you can lead others and be their role model,......
...and not to keep away and mind your own business
...not to hibernate or get into your comfort zone
...not to turn others down
...not to be selfish
...not to drown yourself in self pity.

Mountain-Goat
29-08-2011, 02:16 AM
Lisa...Trying very hard to enjoy a severe case of food poisoning at the moment...will post a reply soon.

Lisa
29-08-2011, 04:43 PM
Lisa...Trying very hard to enjoy a severe case of food poisoning at the moment...will post a reply soon.

Now that takes a brilliant writer. Clever under duress!

Ouch! :icon_frown:

Sorry to hear it, and very kind to reply.

Hang in there, AC :hug3:

Xan
30-08-2011, 01:59 AM
3dnow: What would God say.


Only what is truly necessary.


Xan

Miss Hepburn
30-08-2011, 02:00 AM
"I will wait forever for you.
Just let me love you - feel how much love is all around you - I made all of this just for you - if there is anything else in your heart, you will miss Me - focus on Me and you will feel Me - I want you more than you could ever imagine --- allow yourself to know you are Mine and I am yours.


I love you so much I am inside you - I am breathing you and digesting your food right now- if only you would let yourself feel Me - we would explode with Love and find Union...I will wait forever for you - you are my love eternally.
Nothing you could ever do would make me stop loving you and wanting you - I will forever draw you to Me.


In every situation I am there hoping you will find me - I wait for that second that you get a glimpse of Me.

This is why you were created to feel my love and for me to finally feel yours.
Without you - I am not fulfilled I am not complete ---if all the Universe came to realize me - and you did not, I would need you to come to Me - fully and on your own - to freely give your love to Me.

I will wait forever for you. "

~God

Lisa
30-08-2011, 06:23 PM
WOW Miss Hepburn.

That was awesome.

I am waiting with bated breath for the second chapter!!! :hug3:

Sundialed
30-08-2011, 06:30 PM
Why are you digging your own graves?
Why do you free yourself by keeping others enslaved?
The roads of life aren't paved!
There are happier people then you, living in a cave!
Smile and wave no one should be a fave
and no one should be afraid
Oh so much life I have gave
are you enjoying each moment?
these are a treasure to be saved

hehe

you are a child forever, the world ever fresh.

Miss Hepburn
31-08-2011, 03:28 AM
Sorry, Lisa, I was still having a cigarette after that.
:smile:
Here, Let me put it out. :wink:



"I created you for Me.
The only reason you exist is to know My Love.
Only in You can I know Myself.
How I long for your heart.
Your precious heart is what I wait for.
Even for a second if you acknowledge Me, I swoon for that.

You are more important to Me than you know.
If one sheep gets lost I spend eternity bringing him back to Me to be protected under My wings.
I will always be waiting for you - waiting and waiting.

I never sleep. I wait for you to waken.
My heart burns for your love and recognition.
I shine the moonlight on your face as you sleep hoping you will remember me.

You will always be Mine and I will always be yours, please
come to Me.
Finally...come to Me."
~God

krishna_lover
31-08-2011, 09:07 AM
I am pretty sure god would say "wake up and smell the coffee"

Hare krishna

Miss Hepburn
31-08-2011, 12:49 PM
I am pretty sure god would say "wake up and smell the coffee"

Hare krishna
Or chai...

Lisa
31-08-2011, 03:52 PM
Sorry, Lisa, I was still having a cigarette after that.
:smile:
Here, Let me put it out. :wink:

Girlfriend, I'm light'n another!!! :D


"I created you for Me.
The only reason you exist is to know My Love.
Only in You can I know Myself.
How I long for your heart.
Your precious heart is what I wait for.
Even for a second if you acknowledge Me, I swoon for that.

You are more important to Me than you know.
If one sheep gets lost I spend eternity bringing him back to Me to be protected under My wings.
I will always be waiting for you - waiting and waiting.

I never sleep. I wait for you to waken.
My heart burns for your love and recognition.
I shine the moonlight on your face as you sleep hoping you will remember me.

You will always be Mine and I will always be yours, please
come to Me.
Finally...come to Me."
~God

As the French do, I blow you a kiss. :hug3:

Lisa
31-08-2011, 03:54 PM
krishna_lover- I am pretty sure god would say "wake up and smell the coffee"

Hare krishna


Word.

Mountain-Goat
02-09-2011, 12:37 AM
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)
But what do you mean by "person". Do you mean the physical-mind-emotion person,
Yes. The self that comes from identification with mind and story. Me and mine. The personal self.
or the consciousness that is aware of that form of the person?
This is it. And without identification with mind, this is realized as who ‘I am".
Not the personal self, but the consciousness that is aware, even aware of a self that’s still thinking it is.
Regarding the above, and Information, Control and Time...I'm still writing my responses to them.
So here's what I've finished thus far...
True. My mother has been a student of Ramtha for some 40 years. So I’ve been exposed!
Just on the point you’re mentioning, my mother- who has done all the work and gone to the camp etc, has not been able to manifest- or if she has- not been able to keep it for long.
There is always two things to consider in regards to applying\testing new information.
1: Is the information correct.
2: Is the person doing the testing correct.
One can have correct information but internal dysfuctions can block positive results obtainable from the applied information.
So, a failed result can be caused from either the information or the person doing the experiments, or, both.

After much failed tests...
If one thinks the information is incorrect, but the actual error\dysfunction is within the tester, then the problem will not be resolved.
If one thinks the information is correct, one has to conclude the self is blocking any positive results due to one's dysfunctions.
Then it's a matter of resolving one's dysfunctions, then continue testing the correct information.
If one still does not produce positive results, then the information may be incorrect.
Add to the equations, do others testing this information produce positive results? If so, then one has to conclude there is truth in the information.

Simplified...it can be said these two ways...
"It doesn't work!"
"It doesn't work for me!"
The first is a claim that the information itself is wrong.
The second now includes self as part of the reason it hasn't worked.

Joe Dispenza for example, being one of the interviewees from What The Bleep.
Not long after watching the movie, after applying his presented information, I fixed up my woeful memory problem in 2-3 weeks.
I then bought his book, Evolve Your Brain.

In there, he shares his experience of being hit by a car during the bike section of his first triathlon.
His spine was shattered and the doc said unless he has multiple pins embedded, he would never walk again.
However, with the pins inserted, he would only have about 50% mobility. He could walk, but anything above and beyond that would not be possible.
At the time of the accident , he'd been a student of Ramtha for a couple of years and he also lead an active life, so 50% mobility was not the direction he wanted to go, even though the doc said without the surgery, 0% was the alternative.

Against the docs advice, in a paralysed state, he left hospital and rested in a friend's home where he began to heal himself solely through the power of intention.
X amount of months later, he was walking again. He currently has 100% mobility.
He had been learning about intention and other things Ramtha taught for a long time, and the accident was his confrontation of does he totally accept this stuff or not.
Here was his chance to put it into practice. The key was, applying your whole being to the process. He words it well in the super extended version.

This is also like Positive Thinking. It won't work if you constantly think of winning money if deeper in you have beliefs contrary to this, thoughts that you are unconscious of.
You may be 100% conscious of your positive thoughts, but if you are not conscious of negative thoughts or beliefs, they will counter any positive thoughts.
One can undermine oneself without even realising it, simply because one has not explored deep within oneself. One has not known oneself.

Is this the case with your mother? I do not know. I only know of my own experiences, and from them I have learnt that when on a journey, I check the path and I check myself at each step.
If something's not working, I check all elements of the process.
It's a long process of elimination till one discovers the actual source of the problem, but once the source is discovered, only then does life beautifully blossom.
Another thing, Ramtha has told his students for decades to move to the country, become self-sufficient for "the days to come." My mother, a true believer, has not been able to manifest that, until now. She sold her house 2 days ago and is moving to the country. She is moving in with an impossible man and into a piece of **** trailer. So, something is askew in Ramtha’s teachings.
I agree, but only in that it's possible there is something hinky with the teaching.
This is according to my limited experiences of Ramtha compared to yours, so I am not claiming either of our evaluations are correct or incorrect.
The only teachings I know of Ramtha's are what is shared in the doco and I know that isn't much.
I just found some of the things she said are more theory that fact, but she speaks as if they are fact.
But, the ol' spider senses start tingling when a person starts speaking in a way that translates theory into fact.

I am neither for nor against Ramtha or any other guru\teacher\etc.
I weigh up each idea\theory and whatever direction my life takes, I acknowledge full responsibility for.
Regardless of whether a person's teachings are correct or not, it's the responsibility of each person in what they choose to do with the information presented isn't it?

When I deconverted from christianity a few years back, I joined ex-christians.com.
Well, many of them there are so angry at religion for leading them astray and wasting many years of their lives.
They feel utterely ripped off and are in a perpetual cycle of bitter frustration because they know they can never receive compensation for their lost years.
Many have stopped their journeys altogether because of the negative experiences in one section of it.
I didn't stay there long because I found my journey through christianity to be most enriching.
The mistakes I made on that path I turned into wisdom to guide me on any future paths.
So for me, it was not a waste of time. I just never expected many of the things I experienced on it while I was on it.

Lisa, vital parts of my journey involved a marriage breakup, years of depression, poverty, incurable diseases and a very serious suicide attempt.
But without those I would not be the amazing person I am today. I don't say amazing in comparison to others. I simply look at my old life and the one I have now and I know I am an amazing person.
The most profound transformative seasons were obtained within the most painful ones.
Who can say what the impossible man and the ****** trailer are for in your Mother's life.
If a nice house is irrelevant, then so too is a ****** trailer, yes?

Here's a very recent incident of a bad thing producing good.

Me mah(mum) cooked me some fish for dinner the other night. Mah is old and very lost in her own world.
She believes her perceptions are true and anything contrary to them is false. This is one element of an unconscious state.
By midnight I awoke in immense pain...food poisoning. It's been 3 days and I am still feeling weak, shaky, nauseous and my kidneys are still sore.
Mah believes she can leave food out to defrost all day and it won't go off. I calmly explain to her regularly that this is not so.
When she leaves butter out all day, and I use it on toast and within 30 minutes I become ill, she believes I am weak, there is nothing wrong with the butter.

However, this time, the severity of my illness has been able to break through her world and she has finally realised the error of her ways and has changed how she prepares food.
She needed a huge hit of reality before she could see it. Although I did not enjoy the immense pain, I am enjoying the positive change in mah.
And maybe she will begin to re evaluate the source of all her constant physical illnesses, seeing as she has been eating off food for many years.

As for something askew in Ramtha's teachings... I think all teachings are imperfect.

"It is you who must make the effort. The masters only point the way." - Buddha

Buddha went on a journey, he discovered something that to him was perfect. He found the absolute explanation of reality.
He knew and spoke often of this, that his words could not perfectly explain it to others.
He knew each person was going to interpret his words into something other that what he meant, simply because each person is unique.
It's not an issue of misintepreting, but the simple process of interpretation automatically changes a thing.

So Buddha, when he spoke, he knew his words were not truth, but were simply a means to point others in the direction of truth, and it was up to each person to go explore and discover for themselves what he had.
Whether the person found truth or not was not Buddha's responsibility, his was to express what he saw and point them in the direction of where he experienced it.

To believe a teacher 100% is the believer's error, though a teacher's error is to believe their own teaching and claim it as truth.

When I first became a christian, my first ever inner\spiritual path, I believed it all.
A few months into the journey and I began to see cracks. Things did not add up.
The more of the whole picture I saw, the more cracks I could see.

I began to see a huge difference between Jesus and the god of the old testament.
I began to see a huge difference between the attitude of Jesus and the modern christian.
I began to see a huge difference between what Jesus taught and how modern christians were living.
I began to see christians were living the old testament ways and were only grateful for Jesus commiting suicide on their behalf.

When I left christianity, I retained the christ like quailities Jesus was teaching and removed all the rest.
Basically, keeping the baby when I threw out the bath water. ~laughs~ I kept the baby Jesus.

Also, specifically about Ramtha telling others to go live in the country to be self sufficient in preparation for something undisclosed...
one, that sounds suss but two, I do not know the full story as to why she advises people to do this.
But my initial thought is, something fishy there.
A leader does not tell people what to do. A leader leads, by example. A leader reveals truth by living it.
The responsibility of the follower to follow or not, is not the responsibility of the leader.
Jesus taught love by loving others. Buddha taught inner peace by never being affected by circumstances.
But, I do not know if Ramtha lives self sufficiently in the country.
The thing about What The Bleep- it isn’t new, manifestation through thought and intent and focus has been around a long time. And it’s true in that it can be done. As you mentioned, and I did, it doesn’t always work. But it can work. One can get really good at manifesting in the outer what they desire.
My point is, is that it? Even if I could manifest everything I wanted on the outer, I still die.
Am I here on earth to get a nice car, a fine house, a lovely relationship? "That’s not enough!" Says my suffering. And also it’s not what I am here for. I am here to realize who I am. And that has nothing to do with getting what I want in the outer.
And we all have dysfunctions, and for those who are talented in using thought for manifestation- once they get their great job or house, tick-tock- that which is dysfunctional in them comes out- and before long problems and troubles comes.
Well, if a person learns manifesting solely to obtain temporal things, and thinking these will create a perfect troublefree life, I'd say they are creating more trouble for themselves.

I lived 40+ years without any understanding of intention or creating my life.
Life dictated to me what I would experience. Of course, I was part of this decision making process but I was unconscious of it, hence my belief life dictated to me.
2009 was the beginning of realising I create my life, based on the realisation that for the last 40+ years I had created a destructive life via self created depression, fear and anxiety.

Materialism is not on the list of things I desire to manifest in my life.
I learnt through the marriage breakup that material possessions are of not much value compared to inner qualities that enable one to traverse harsh environments.
My kids and I valued each other's love for each other, the ability to care and support one another, to cultivate inner strength, to understand that everyone will experience painful times, that the harsh times was where one became stronger, if one chose to do so of course.

We went through many years of poverty and through that experience we all learnt that material possessions were not that important.
Yes there are basic needs to be met, and for kids, still learning, there are wants to have in order to experience what they consider to be basic things a kid experiences.
I provided for them as best as I could and they appreciated every thing they had, especially when they saw me sacrifice my wants for theirs, which wasn't hard for me.

2007, living on my own by then, I decided to live in my car while I was working full time.
My sole possessions were my mp3 player, books, notepad and pen, and I Iived this way for 10 months. It was most enriching.
I had just begun my Eastern journey at this time.
I was learning about detachment, minimalisation, dropping all the outer, to focus on the inner. Far more that I had been exploring the previous 10+ years.
Learning how to do this not from a forceful stance, or from circumstances dictating to me, but from a peaceful and joyful willingness to explore this rather unorthodox way to exist.
And from those transformative experiences, when my future will involve wealth, I will use it wisely to help others in need because I simply do not need wealth.
Material possessions aren't a problem unless one is attached to them, if one cannot live without them.

I don't know how others use manifesting but it has never occured to me to use this ability for material things.
My focus, due to the awareness of the inner dysfunctions I had, all my manifesting is related to healing and inner strength.
Storms will come and manifesting a house that can be destroyed is nowhere near as valuable than manifesting an inner ability to not be the slightest bit concerned when the house is destroyed.

I don't see talent as the reason why people successfully manifest. I see it's self knowledge that has enabled them to remove all inner obstacles.
To me, manifesting, creating one's life is a natural and innately powerful ability of all people. It's just that some manifest destructive lives.

I used to think this way.
When I saw a person having a happy successful life, I thought they were either lucky or ambitious, self confident, talented?
What I didn't know at that time was everyone creates their life according to their thoughts, conscious and unconscious ones.
My life was hell simply because I unconsciously believed I deserved a life of hell, so I created situations that matched the beliefs.
I was powerfully manifesting my hellish life equally as well as a person was manifesting a wonderful life.

But one doesn't consider a person would willfully choose to create a hellish life. That is illogical. Why would a person do this to themself.
But if one discovers via self exploration, a hidden core belief that one is not worthy of having a wonderful life, then it suddenly becomes quite logical that a person who believes this will manifest a hellish life for themself.
Self knowledge is paramount to manifesting what one consciously wants to.
Watching thought, no thought, beyond thought is a way to realize who I am.
Using thought to better myself in the world will, at best, just get me better things in the world.
But we, in human form, live in both worlds. we live in the inner silent thoughtless realm and we live in the realm of thought, the physical realm.
A human is a creature of both realms. I find accepting both is a balanced life.
And let's say your no thought self, being linked to your thought self, causes your thoughts to be more positive and life manifesting.
Will this not then manifest better things for you in this world. And if it does, but you have no need for them because of the cultivation of your no thought self, then simply share it with others.

For example: My innermost desire is for orphanages. I have had orphans on my heart since my 30's. If I have excess beyond my needs, then it will go to orphanages.
If I have the ability to manifest excess beyond my needs, I will use it to help others. But the help is not simply handouts. The help is to help others to create their own productive lives.

It's like the old story of the villiage that lost its food supply.
Something happened to their environment and their food supply was running out, so some charitable organisation was supplying them with fish.
This villiage had never fished before, they were farmers.
The chief said to them, "Don't give us fish, teach us how to fish."

There's nothing wrong with manifesting plentiful in the material world. It's what one does with it, it's why one wants to manifest it, those are the issues.

I understand where you're coming from when you say, what's the value of manifesting material things when one is going to die eventually.
But, the avg lifespan is say, 100 years and in that 100 years material things are required.
In the big picture it can be said that these 100 years are irrelivant, but during those 100 years they are very relevant.
What was before physical life, and what comes after physical life? Lots of theories, but no facts.

So, I have chosen to regard my physical existance as important. It's a genuine, real and equally valuable part of the whole life, whatever that may be.
I do not regard this physical life as separate from what lays beyond it. This physical life is a season of the whole, a specific form among many forms of existence.
Theory only of course, but I choose to view it this way. I choose to explore reality via this theory to test its validity.
It just seems illogical to be living a physical life and regard the physical realm as unimportant.
 

Lisa
05-09-2011, 02:50 PM
This is a banquet! AC you really are a writer! :icon_flower:


Originally Posted by Lisa
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)

-But what do you mean by "person". Do you mean the physical-mind-emotion person,

Yes. The self that comes from identification with mind and story. Me and mine. The personal self.

Quote:
-or the consciousness that is aware of that form of the person?

This is it. And without identification with mind, this is realized as who ‘I am".
Not the personal self, but the consciousness that is aware, even aware of a self that’s still thinking it is.


Regarding the above, and Information, Control and Time...I'm still writing my responses to them.
So here's what I've finished thus far...


True. My mother has been a student of Ramtha for some 40 years. So I’ve been exposed!
Just on the point you’re mentioning, my mother- who has done all the work and gone to the camp etc, has not been able to manifest- or if she has- not been able to keep it for long.


There is always two things to consider in regards to applying\testing new information.
1: Is the information correct.
2: Is the person doing the testing correct.
I read number 2 and it went “Ding Ding”.

One can have correct information but internal dysfuctions can block positive results obtainable from the applied information.
You're right.

So, a failed result can be caused from either the information or the person doing the experiments, or, both.

After much failed tests...
If one thinks the information is incorrect, but the actual error\dysfunction is within the tester, then the problem will not be resolved.
Yes.

If one thinks the information is correct, one has to conclude the self is blocking any positive results due to one's dysfunctions.
Then it's a matter of resolving one's dysfunctions, then continue testing the correct information.
If one still does not produce positive results, then the information may be incorrect.
Add to the equations, do others testing this information produce positive results? If so, then one has to conclude there is truth in the information.
Agreed.

Simplified...it can be said these two ways...
"It doesn't work!"
"It doesn't work for me!"
The first is a claim that the information itself is wrong.
The second now includes self as part of the reason it hasn't worked.
I like it.


Joe Dispenza for example, being one of the interviewees from What The Bleep.
Not long after watching the movie, after applying his presented information, I fixed up my woeful memory problem in 2-3 weeks.
I then bought his book, Evolve Your Brain.

In there, he shares his experience of being hit by a car during the bike section of his first triathlon.
His spine was shattered and the doc said unless he has multiple pins embedded, he would never walk again.
However, with the pins inserted, he would only have about 50% mobility. He could walk, but anything above and beyond that would not be possible.
At the time of the accident , he'd been a student of Ramtha for a couple of years and he also lead an active life, so 50% mobility was not the direction he wanted to go, even though the doc said without the surgery, 0% was the alternative.

Against the docs advice, in a paralysed state, he left hospital and rested in a friend's home where he began to heal himself solely through the power of intention.
X amount of months later, he was walking again. He currently has 100% mobility.
He had been learning about intention and other things Ramtha taught for a long time, and the accident was his confrontation of does he totally accept this stuff or not.
Here was his chance to put it into practice. The key was, applying your whole being to the process. He words it well in the super extended version.
Awesome story!


This is also like Positive Thinking. It won't work if you constantly think of winning money if deeper in you have beliefs contrary to this, thoughts that you are unconscious of.
You may be 100% conscious of your positive thoughts, but if you are not conscious of negative thoughts or beliefs, they will counter any positive thoughts.
One can undermine oneself without even realising it, simply because one has not explored deep within oneself. One has not known oneself.
Yes, I’ve heard of what you’ve said here.

Is this the case with your mother? I do not know. I only know of my own experiences, and from them I have learnt that when on a journey, I check the path and I check myself at each step.
If something's not working, I check all elements of the process.
It's a long process of elimination till one discovers the actual source of the problem, but once the source is discovered, only then does life beautifully blossom.
And it takes being honest with oneself- not in denial.


Another thing, Ramtha has told his students for decades to move to the country, become self-sufficient for "the days to come." My mother, a true believer, has not been able to manifest that, until now. She sold her house 2 days ago and is moving to the country. She is moving in with an impossible man and into a piece of **** trailer. So, something is askew in Ramtha’s teachings.


I agree, but only in that it's possible there is something hinky with the teaching.
This is according to my limited experiences of Ramtha compared to yours, so I am not claiming either of our evaluations are correct or incorrect.
The only teachings I know of Ramtha's are what is shared in the doco and I know that isn't much.
I just found some of the things she said are more theory that fact, but she speaks as if they are fact.
Correct.

But, the ol' spider senses start tingling when a person starts speaking in a way that translates theory into fact.
lol


I am neither for nor against Ramtha or any other guru\teacher\etc.
I weigh up each idea\theory and whatever direction my life takes, I acknowledge full responsibility for.
Regardless of whether a person's teachings are correct or not, it's the responsibility of each person in what they choose to do with the information presented isn't it?
This gets complicated. But I see what you’re saying.

When I deconverted from christianity a few years back, I joined ex-christians.com.
Well, many of them there are so angry at religion for leading them astray and wasting many years of their lives.
They feel utterely ripped off and are in a perpetual cycle of bitter frustration because they know they can never receive compensation for their lost years.
Many have stopped their journeys altogether because of the negative experiences in one section of it.
I didn't stay there long because I found my journey through christianity to be most enriching.
The mistakes I made on that path I turned into wisdom to guide me on any future paths.
So for me, it was not a waste of time. I just never expected many of the things I experienced on it while I was on it.
You have a good attitude- and that goes a long way!

Lisa, vital parts of my journey involved a marriage breakup, years of depression, poverty, incurable diseases and a very serious suicide attempt.
But without those I would not be the amazing person I am today. I don't say amazing in comparison to others. I simply look at my old life and the one I have now and I know I am an amazing person.
The most profound transformative seasons were obtained within the most painful ones.
You have an Awesome attitude! And I agree with what you’ve said.

Who can say what the impossible man and the ****** trailer are for in your Mother's life.
If a nice house is irrelevant, then so too is a ****** trailer, yes?
Well, she Is my mom. But mostly it’s because she will be unhappy in the ****** trailer.

Here's a very recent incident of a bad thing producing good.
Me mah(mum) cooked me some fish for dinner the other night. Mah is old and very lost in her own world.
She believes her perceptions are true and anything contrary to them is false. This is one element of an unconscious state.
By midnight I awoke in immense pain...food poisoning. It's been 3 days and I am still feeling weak, shaky, nauseous and my kidneys are still sore.
I’m sorry AC.

Mah believes she can leave food out to defrost all day and it won't
go off. I calmly explain to her regularly that this is not so.
When she leaves butter out all day, and I use it on toast and within 30 minutes I become ill, she believes I am weak, there is nothing wrong with the butter.
Your mother and my mother have some similar traits. Even about the butter and leaving food out all day long! When my mother is going to cook, she sets refridgerated stuff out in the morning for cooking for dinner!

, this time, the severity of my illness has been able to break through her world and she has finally realised the error of her ways and has changed how she prepares food.
She needed a huge hit of reality before she could see it. Although I did not enjoy the immense pain, I am enjoying the positive change in mah.
Yes, but what a price to pay. Why don’t they just listen???

And maybe she will begin to re evaluate the source of all her constant physical illnesses, seeing as she has been eating off food for many years.

(see next post)

Lisa
05-09-2011, 03:00 PM
As for something askew in Ramtha's teachings... I think all teachings are imperfect.

"It is you who must make the effort. The masters only point the way." - Buddha

Buddha went on a journey, he discovered something that to him was perfect. He found the absolute explanation of reality.
He knew and spoke often of this, that his words could not perfectly explain it to others.
He knew each person was going to interpret his words into something other that what he meant, simply because each person is unique.
It's not an issue of misintepreting, but the simple process of interpretation automatically changes a thing.
Good point

when he spoke, he knew his words were not truth, but were simply a means to point others in the direction of truth, and it was up to each person to go explore and discover for themselves what he had.
Whether the person found truth or not was not Buddha's responsibility, his was to express what he saw and point them in the direction of where he experienced it.

To believe a teacher 100% is the believer's error, though a teacher's error is to believe their own teaching and claim it as truth.

When I first became a christian, my first ever inner\spiritual path, I believed it all.
A few months into the journey and I began to see cracks. Things did not add up.
The more of the whole picture I saw, the more cracks I could see.

I began to see a huge difference between Jesus and the god of the old testament.
I began to see a huge difference between the attitude of Jesus and the modern christian.
I began to see a huge difference between what Jesus taught and how modern christians were living.
YES.
I began to see christians were living the old testament ways and were only grateful for Jesus commiting suicide on their behalf.
OMG. That’s fantastic, AC!
christianity, I retained the christ like quailities Jesus was teaching and removed all the rest.
Basically, keeping the baby when I threw out the bath water. ~laughs~ I kept the baby Jesus.
I love it, me too.
ly about Ramtha telling others to go live in the country to be self sufficient in preparation for something undisclosed...
one, that sounds suss but two, I do not know the full story as to why she advises people to do this.
Because of “The days to come”- an apocalyptic belief, and his students need to live in the country in certain places or underground to be spared.
But my initial thought is, something fishy there.
A leader does not tell people what to do.
Exactly. But Ramtha tells them what to do.
A leader leads, by example. A leader reveals truth by living it.
The responsibility of the follower to follow or not, is not the responsibility of the leader.
Jesus taught love by loving others. Buddha taught inner peace by never being affected by circumstances.
But, I do not know if Ramtha lives self sufficiently in the country.
Ramtha is an entity- so he has no need for any outer thing, But JZ- the woman he comes through- is apparently wealthy and has all her needs met for the days to come.
Mind you I don’t know if Ramtha is “real” or a false profit, or what. I don’t care either.
But had my mother never found him, her life I feel would have been much better. Or maybe not!


The thing about What The Bleep- it isn’t new, manifestation through thought and intent and focus has been around a long time. And it’s true in that it can be done. As you mentioned, and I did, it doesn’t always work. But it can work. One can get really good at manifesting in the outer what they desire.
My point is, is that it? Even if I could manifest everything I wanted on the outer, I still die.
Am I here on earth to get a nice car, a fine house, a lovely relationship? "That’s not enough!" Says my suffering. And also it’s not what I am here for. I am here to realize who I am. And that has nothing to do with getting what I want in the outer.
And we all have dysfunctions, and for those who are talented in using thought for manifestation- once they get their great job or house, tick-tock- that which is dysfunctional in them comes out- and before long problems and troubles comes.


Well, if a person learns manifesting solely to obtain temporal things, and thinking these will create a perfect troublefree life, I'd say they are creating more trouble for themselves.
Here! Here!
I lived 40+ years without any understanding of intention or creating my life.
Life dictated to me what I would experience. Of course, I was part of this decision making process but I was unconscious of it, hence my belief life dictated to me.
2009 was the beginning of realising I create my life, based on the realisation that for the last 40+ years I had created a destructive life via self created depression, fear and anxiety.
Major insight.
Materialism is not on the list of things I desire to manifest in my life.
I learnt through the marriage breakup that material possessions are of not much value compared to inner qualities that enable one to traverse harsh environments.
My kids and I valued each other's love for each other, the ability to care and support one another, to cultivate inner strength, to understand that everyone will experience painful times, that the harsh times was where one became stronger, if one chose to do so of course.

We went through many years of poverty and through that experience we all learnt that material possessions were not that important.
Yes there are basic needs to be met, and for kids, still learning, there are wants to have in order to experience what they consider to be basic things a kid experiences.
I provided for them as best as I could and they appreciated every thing they had, especially when they saw me sacrifice my wants for theirs, which wasn't hard for me.

2007, living on my own by then, I decided to live in my car while I was working full time.
My sole possessions were my mp3 player, books, notepad and pen, and I Iived this way for 10 months. It was most enriching.
I had just begun my Eastern journey at this time.
I was learning about detachment, minimalisation, dropping all the outer, to focus on the inner. Far more that I had been exploring the previous 10+ years.
Learning how to do this not from a forceful stance, or from circumstances dictating to me, but from a peaceful and joyful willingness to explore this rather unorthodox way to exist.
And from those transformative experiences, when my future will involve wealth, I will use it wisely to help others in need because I simply do not need wealth.
Thank you for sharing this.

Material possessions aren't a problem unless one is attached to them, if one cannot live without them.
Exactly.


I don't know how others use manifesting but it has never occured to me to use this ability for material things.
My focus, due to the awareness of the inner dysfunctions I had, all my manifesting is related to healing and inner strength.


Storms will come and manifesting a house that can be destroyed is nowhere near as valuable than manifesting an inner ability to not be the slightest bit concerned when the house is destroyed.
APPLAUSE! :hello2:

I don't see talent as the reason why people successfully manifest. I see it's self knowledge that has enabled them to remove all inner obstacles.
To me, manifesting, creating one's life is a natural and innately powerful ability of all people. It's just that some manifest destructive lives.

I used to think this way.
When I saw a person having a happy successful life, I thought they were either lucky or ambitious, self confident, talented?
What I didn't know at that time was everyone creates their life according to their thoughts, conscious and unconscious ones.
My life was hell simply because I unconsciously believed I deserved a life of hell, so I created situations that matched the beliefs.
I was powerfully manifesting my hellish life equally as well as a person was manifesting a wonderful life.
Very insightful.

But one doesn't consider a person would willfully choose to create a hellish life. That is illogical. Why would a person do this to themself.
But if one discovers via self exploration, a hidden core belief that one is not worthy of having a wonderful life, then it suddenly becomes quite logical that a person who believes this will manifest a hellish life for themself.
Self knowledge is paramount to manifesting what one consciously wants to.
Quote:
Watching thought, no thought, beyond thought is a way to realize who I am.
Using thought to better myself in the world will, at best, just get me better things in the world.

But we, in human form, live in both worlds. we live in the inner silent thoughtless realm and we live in the realm of thought, the physical realm.
A human is a creature of both realms. I find accepting both is a balanced life.
And let's say your no thought self, being linked to your thought self, causes your thoughts to be more positive and life manifesting.
Will this not then manifest better things for you in this world. And if it does, but you have no need for them because of the cultivation of your no thought self, then simply share it with others.
That’s a good idea!

r example: My innermost desire is for orphanages. I have had orphans on my heart since my 30's. If I have excess beyond my needs, then it will go to orphanages.
If I have the ability to manifest excess beyond my needs, I will use it to help others. But the help is not simply handouts. The help is to help others to create their own productive lives.

It's like the old story of the villiage that lost its food supply.
Something happened to their environment and their food supply was running out, so some charitable organisation was supplying them with fish.
This villiage had never fished before, they were farmers.
The chief said to them, "Don't give us fish, teach us how to fish."

There's nothing wrong with manifesting plentiful in the material world. It's what one does with it, it's why one wants to manifest it, those are the issues.
I agree with this. If one can manifest selflessly- for others, for life forms, for the planet- out of love- I am all for it.


I understand where you're coming from when you say, what's the value of manifesting material things when one is going to die eventually.
But, the avg lifespan is say, 100 years and in that 100 years material things are required.
In the big picture it can be said that these 100 years are irrelivant, but during those 100 years they are very relevant.
Word.

What was before physical life, and what comes after physical life? Lots of theories, but no facts.

So, I have chosen to regard my physical existance as important. It's a genuine, real and equally valuable part of the whole life, whatever that may be.
I do not regard this physical life as separate from what lays beyond it. This physical life is a season of the whole, a specific form among many forms of existence.
Theory only of course, but I choose to view it this way. I choose to explore reality via this theory to test its validity.
It just seems illogical to be living a physical life and regard the physical realm as unimportant.
I like what you say. I think the physical realm is very important, essential- for the joy of being and being alive. But more- it is the means through which we can realize that which is not physical. The formless one consciousness- who we are.

:fish:

moke64916
05-09-2011, 03:29 PM
Sorry, Lisa, I was still having a cigarette after that.
:smile:
Here, Let me put it out. :wink:



"I created you for Me.
The only reason you exist is to know My Love.
Only in You can I know Myself.
How I long for your heart.
Your precious heart is what I wait for.
Even for a second if you acknowledge Me, I swoon for that.

You are more important to Me than you know.
If one sheep gets lost I spend eternity bringing him back to Me to be protected under My wings.
I will always be waiting for you - waiting and waiting.

I never sleep. I wait for you to waken.
My heart burns for your love and recognition.
I shine the moonlight on your face as you sleep hoping you will remember me.

You will always be Mine and I will always be yours, please
come to Me.
Finally...come to Me."
~God
Beautiful.:smile:

Miss Hepburn
05-09-2011, 04:46 PM
Thank you Moke - for your appreciation of true words, that don't come from "me", but "Me".

ACarpark ---Wow, long, so worth it, chuck full of heart and insight and information!
Thank you! (your Sept 1 post #197)

Miss Hepburn
05-09-2011, 04:59 PM
"You are my beloved child - I watch everything you do.
I was there forming you in the womb - I rejoice at your triumphs and
share your sadness in your pain.
I know what you will say before you say it.
It will not be long now when you will
feel Me everywhere and all around you and we will dance
together for eternity in love."
~God

Miss Hepburn
05-09-2011, 05:07 PM
"You do not know My Love fully yet.
Your natural love makes you want to be near someone
and watch their chest as they breathe, to smell your puppy's breath,
to hold them close.
I love you so much I am inside you - so close, I am breathing you.
Without me you would be cold - I am the heat inside you - I am the heat in
the Sun - one day you will be able
to know the intensity of My Divine Love,
which longs for you and we will be together forever, finally."

~God

Miss Hepburn
06-09-2011, 06:06 PM
I love you so much I am inside you - so close, I am breathing you.

Along these lines - some of you may like this song very much,
"Breathe Me in Slow" Emily Jaye

http://www.heavyhittersmusic.com/PTitle.aspx?TitleID=57174&V=234-HOMW-PAGE---LOVE-BALLADS (http://www.heavyhittersmusic.com/PTitle.aspx?TitleID=57174&V=234-HOMW-PAGE---LOVE-BALLADS)

:smile:

Mountain-Goat
07-09-2011, 12:26 AM
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)
But what do you mean by "person". Do you mean the physical-mind-emotion person,
Yes. The self that comes from identification with mind and story. Me and mine. The personal self.
or the consciousness that is aware of that form of the person?
This is it. And without identification with mind, this is realized as who ‘I am".
Not the personal self, but the consciousness that is aware, even aware of a self that’s still thinking it is.
But is not the personal self simply a specific manifestation of the consciousness, an extension, a form emminating from the formless?
Is not the declaration of "I am" the same as the declaration of "me"? Is not "I am" simply another identity?
This realisation of who "I am"...is not realisation a process of mind?
Is not Mind and Consciousness the same thing, or at least, Mind is an extention manifesting from Consciousness?

It is all one self, is it not?
There is surface personal self, and when looking inward, one sees there is more to self than what's on the surface.
I am not assuming you have said things of this nature, but this so reminds me of the repeated claims of others that there is a false self and a true self.
That the false self is the ego. They claim there is no "me", no individual self. That it's all an illusion.
I still do not see the logic in that theory.

Because when you say there is this consciousness that is aware, why can't this consciousness be the personal self and that it is simply becoming more self aware, discovering more of itself through inner exploration?

Information:
Yes. Information can be recieved by one's 5 senses.
Heavy fog in the morning informs one of the potential for a warm day.
A smile informs one that a person is happy.
There are many forms of information transmission.

And considering that everything is energy in motion\transmission(everything is resonating at specific frequencies), information is everywhere, all the time, and it's simply a matter of being able to sense it.
And one senses more by being more open, by being silent and still, and especially by removing one's beliefs, to be able to experience the unknown beyond the knowns of one beliefs.
Then it's a matter of being able to interpret, to translate the incoming energy into a known form, a familiar language, or, learning the new language.
An english speaking person can use a translation book to comprehend a person speaking in German, or one can learn German.
Either way is acceptable.
One can transform the incoming information, or one can transform oneself to be able to comprehend the new language.

All information recieved via the 5 senses are decoded by the mind, the inner self.
And there is also the 6th sense, the inner sense, the sense that receives frequencies beyond the range of the other 5 senses.
And who is to say how many inner senses there actually are. There could be, for example, an inner sense connected with each chakra.

Control:
If there is a law that is enforced for me to drive at a certain speed limit, then that is external control upon me that restricts my freedom.
But if I have self control and willingly choose to drive at that limit, then there is no external control depriving me of my freedom.
Control upon self from external means is loss of freedom, but self control, the ability to choose one's actions, thoughts and feelings regardless of external factors, is total freedom.

Time:
A person cannot teach another. A person teaches themself. All I can do is share my observations.
The ability to not be concerned about time is a perception issue, an attitude. I can't see how those two things can be taught to another.
Perception and attitude are created\developed by the individual, and these two are done so by evaluating data recieved from reality.

Here's a couple of observations of time...

Even as a child I was fascinated that time goes fast when having fun, and goes slow when not. Yet the actual speed of time has not changed.
Two people are listening to a presentation. One is bored and one is most interested.
For the bored person, the 2 hr presentation felt like 6hrs, and to the interested, the 2hrs felt like a few minutes.
Time is relevant to the observer, even though the time piece shows 2hrs, regardless of each person's perception.
There's some wacky stuff going on here because a human exists in both worlds.

It's as if there are two states of time, external and internal. External time never varies, but internal perception of time does.
Consider sleep compared to all other activities. If no dreams were remembered, those 6-8hrs were timeless.
There was a only a moment between closing one's eyes and opening them.

In the external world, there are multiple cycles of time: day-night, seconds-minutes-hours-days-years, growth from birth to death, seasons, tides.
But in the inner world, there is no time. It's a world of the infinite, the never ending, time never ends, or because past, present and future can be accessed at the same time, there is no time, it's timeless.

While I was reading The Power Of Now a few years ago, I had a major paradigm transformation because of the data presented.
Yet it wasn't till 2010 that it really sunk in, I wrote a piece in here about it, 'Knytt Stories and the power of now', which was lost in the crash of that same year.
There appears to be past, present(now) and future. But all there is, is now, and its infinite.
But if one lives in the past or future, thus avoiding the present, one is not living in timelessness. One is living in time, and the clock is ticking.
In the now, in the infinite, time goes on forever, or it's timelessness.
In the realm of time, infinite time and timelessness appear to be the same.

Most religions speak of the afterlife, where one can finally live forever.
But if life is eternal, then one is already living as an eternal being and it's unrecognised because of the temporal orientation of the physical existence.
Songs are 3 minutes, sitcoms are 30 minutes, dramas are 1hr, movies are 1.5-2hrs, work is 9 to 5, for modern technology based societies.
Time, time, time, and what I find the most fascinating of all, a person is a loser because they were 1/10th of a second slower than their apponent at the olympics...1/10th of a second!
Life has been existing for billions of years and a person is fixated on 1/10th of a second of it.

Time is associated with motion. If the sun did not move, nor clock hands, etc, where is the passing of time?
Meditation, stillness, non movement, specifically internal non movement. This is experiencing one's eternal existence, the timeless state of one's being.

Time going on forever and timelessness are two different things.
Hypomathematically: The two people at the presentation again.
The bored person is so bored that the presentation feels like it goes on forever. That's infinite time.
But the interested person is so interested, being so in the moment that the presentation felt like it lasted less than the blink of an eye. 2hrs experienced in the blink of an eye.
Reduce this moment so much that time itself disappears. That is timelessness. There is no past, no future, just now, just existence, time is completely gone.

Sleep, death, nothingness, the silence of the meditative state. These all are related. All aspects\glimpses of the one phenomenon.
All theory of course, derived by my observations from my explorations.

Back to the two at the presentation. Why does time appear to go slow for the bored and fast for the interested? Here's one angle.
The bored constantly looks at the clock, the interested does not. Focused attention.
But does time appear to slow down from focused attention on the time or from being bored?
If one is not bored, one does not focus on the time.

The issue then is the state of being within one's existence, not time. One's attitude within the experience of life.
If one is bored, this signifies one does not want to be there.
One wants to be doing something else. One is not in the present moment. One is looking\focusing on some more interesting future experience.
Which brings up an interesting observation about the whole I AM thing.

I am bored.
I am interested.
I am happy.
I am sad.
I am joyful.
I am depressed.
I am fearfully in protection mode.
I am courageously in progress mode.

I am. I am what I have chosen to be.
If I am not what I want to be, then I do not know myself.

Mountain-Goat
07-09-2011, 12:41 AM
This is a banquet! AC you really are a writer! :icon_flower:
ACarpark ---Wow, long, so worth it, chuck full of heart and insight and information!
Thank you! (your Sept 1 post #197)

~smiles and bows~

Thread saved for reading and replying at home.

Miss Hepburn
07-09-2011, 02:55 AM
Another great post full of what you have learned, AC
But like most boys in 6th to 8th grade you
were thinking of girls when the rule "i before e except after c" was taught.
Shame.
:wink:

Mountain-Goat
07-09-2011, 03:04 AM
Another great post full of what you have learned, AC
But like most boys in 6th to 8th grade you
were thinking of girls when the rule "i before e except after c" was taught.
Shame.
:wink:
I constantly am referencing the dictionary to check that and other pesky spelling rules.
The english language is awash with illogical rules.
~smiles~ However, just recently, after much pondering related to a remarkable experience earlier this year, I have chosen to go deeper into my celibate lifestyle, so no thinking of grrls by me.
Which...I know...how can my current lifestyle choice affect what I learnt or did not learn in my youth?
I cannot answer that without getting deep into some wacky theories, but suffice to say, there is a logical connection between my present and my past.

Miss Hepburn
08-09-2011, 02:40 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
" You see, I have all the time in the World.
I have all the patience in the Universe.
My waiting can go for longer than you can imagine.
All My waiting is like nectar to Me.
But you are the fruit.
I will not stop wanting you.
You are what I wait for.
You."
~God

Maiya
08-09-2011, 01:57 PM
"It's fun watching you all trying to figure it out. Unfortunately only a few of you are anywhere near close to solving the puzzle that is life." - God

Miss Hepburn
08-09-2011, 04:56 PM
"It's fun watching you all trying to figure it out. Unfortunately only a few of you are anywhere near close to solving the puzzle that is life." - God
Very cute. :D

Lisa
08-09-2011, 05:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa
lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)
But what do you mean by "person". Do you mean the physical-mind-emotion person,
Yes. The self that comes from identification with mind and story. Me and mine. The personal self.

Quote:
or the consciousness that is aware of that form of the person?
This is it. And without identification with mind, this is realized as who ‘I am".
Not the personal self, but the consciousness that is aware, even aware of a self that’s still thinking it is.

Hi AC. :smile:

But is not the personal self simply a specific manifestation of the consciousness, an extension, a form emminating from the formless?
It is consciousness identified with mind- with form. The form itself is a manifestation of consciousness, the mind is a tool. But consciousness is lost in the mind in humans.
But there is a purpose for this.

Is not the declaration of "I am" the same as the declaration of "me"? Is not "I am" simply another identity?
No.

This realisation of who "I am"...is not realisation a process of mind?
Realization is not a process of mind.

Is not Mind and Consciousness the same thing,
No.

or at least, Mind is an extention manifesting from Consciousness?
I could go along with that.

It is all one self, is it not?
There is surface personal self, and when looking inward, one sees there is more to self than what's on the surface.


I am not assuming you have said things of this nature, but this so reminds me of the repeated claims of others that there is a false self and a true self.
Yes, I am “one of the others.” Though we are dealing with words here, yes, there is a false self and a true self.

That the false self is the ego. They claim there is no "me", no individual self. That it's all an illusion.
Yes, I agree with them.

I still do not see the logic in that theory.
It isn’t a theory, and it isn’t logical.
Is God logical?

Because when you say there is this consciousness that is aware, why can't this consciousness be the personal self and that it is simply becoming more self aware, discovering more of itself through inner exploration?
Because the personal self is a separate self. Or a sense of separation. The real or true self is one. The personal self, false self, illusionary self consists of thoughts, memories. experiences, emotions all put into a bag called “me”. It is consciousness identified with mind. And when the body dies, so also does this “self”, this “me”.

But there is a purpose for it- for this is a state of being lost, and in order to be found one must be lost. Being found is the realization of the true self, divine self, one consciousness as being who one is. Not the little self, but Life Itself, or God itself. Self Realization or call it God realization. This is eternal one consciousness that was never born and never dies. It’s our purpose to realize this- who we are. What is the only spiritual question to ask? Who am I?

Information:
Yes. Information can be received by one's 5 senses.
Heavy fog in the morning informs one of the potential for a warm day.
A smile informs one that a person is happy.
There are many forms of information transmission.

And considering that everything is energy in motion\transmission(everything is resonating at specific frequencies), information is everywhere, all the time, and it's simply a matter of being able to sense it.


And one senses more by being more open, by being silent and still, and especially by removing one's beliefs, to be able to experience the unknown beyond the knowns of one beliefs.


YES.

Then it's a matter of being able to interpret, to translate the incoming energy into a known form, a familiar language, or, learning the new language.
An english speaking person can use a translation book to comprehend a person speaking in German, or one can learn German.
Either way is acceptable.
One can transform the incoming information, or one can transform oneself to be able to comprehend the new language.

All information recieved via the 5 senses are decoded by the mind, the inner self.
And there is also the 6th sense, the inner sense, the sense that receives frequencies beyond the range of the other 5 senses.
And who is to say how many inner senses there actually are. There could be, for example, an inner sense connected with each chakra.

Control:
If there is a law that is enforced for me to drive at a certain speed limit, then that is external control upon me that restricts my freedom.
But if I have self control and willingly choose to drive at that limit, then there is no external control depriving me of my freedom.
Control upon self from external means is loss of freedom, but self control, the ability to choose one's actions, thoughts and feelings regardless of external factors, is total freedom.

Time:
A person cannot teach another. A person teaches themself. All I can do is share my observations.
The ability to not be concerned about time is a perception issue, an attitude. I can't see how those two things can be taught to another.
Perception and attitude are created\developed by the individual, and these two are done so by evaluating data recieved from reality.

Here's a couple of observations of time...

Even as a child I was fascinated that time goes fast when having fun, and goes slow when not. Yet the actual speed of time has not changed.
Two people are listening to a presentation. One is bored and one is most interested.
For the bored person, the 2 hr presentation felt like 6hrs, and to the interested, the 2hrs felt like a few minutes.
Time is relevant to the observer, even though the time piece shows 2hrs, regardless of each person's perception.

True.

There's some wacky stuff going on here because a human exists in both worlds.


It's as if there are two states of time, external and internal. External time never varies, but internal perception of time does.
Consider sleep compared to all other activities. If no dreams were remembered, those 6-8hrs were timeless.
There was a only a moment between closing one's eyes and opening them.

In the external world, there are multiple cycles of time: day-night, seconds-minutes-hours-days-years, growth from birth to death, seasons, tides.


But in the inner world, there is no time. It's a world of the infinite, the never ending, time never ends, or because past, present and future can be accessed at the same time, there is no time, it's timeless.


Yes.

While I was reading The Power Of Now
YES!

a few years ago, I had a major paradigm transformation because of the data presented.
Yet it wasn't till 2010 that it really sunk in, I wrote a piece in here about it, 'Knytt Stories and the power of now', which was lost in the crash of that same year.

There appears to be past, present(now) and future. But all there is, is now, and its infinite.
But if one lives in the past or future, thus avoiding the present, one is not living in timelessness. One is living in time, and the clock is ticking.
In the now, in the infinite, time goes on forever, or it's timelessness.

YES.

In the realm of time, infinite time and timelessness appear to be the same.

Most religions speak of the afterlife, where one can finally live forever.
But if life is eternal, then one is already living as an eternal being and it's unrecognised because of the temporal orientation of the physical existence.
Songs are 3 minutes, sitcoms are 30 minutes, dramas are 1hr, movies are 1.5-2hrs, work is 9 to 5, for modern technology based societies.
Time, time, time, and what I find the most fascinating of all, a person is a loser because they were 1/10th of a second slower than their apponent at the olympics...1/10th of a second!
Life has been existing for billions of years and a person is fixated on 1/10th of a second of it.
lol

Time is associated with motion. If the sun did not move, nor clock hands, etc, where is the passing of time?


Meditation, stillness, non movement, specifically internal non movement. This is experiencing one's eternal existence, the timeless state of one's being.

Yes.

Time going on forever and timelessness are two different things.
Hypomathematically: The two people at the presentation again.
The bored person is so bored that the presentation feels like it goes on forever. That's infinite time.
But the interested person is so interested, being so in the moment that the presentation felt like it lasted less than the blink of an eye. 2hrs experienced in the blink of an eye.
Reduce this moment so much that time itself disappears.

That is timelessness. There is no past, no future, just now, just existence, time is completely gone.

Yes.

Sleep, death, nothingness, the silence of the meditative state. These all are related. All aspects\glimpses of the one phenomenon.


Yes.

All theory of course, derived by my observations from my explorations.

Back to the two at the presentation. Why does time appear to go slow for the bored and fast for the interested? Here's one angle.
The bored constantly looks at the clock, the interested does not. Focused attention.
But does time appear to slow down from focused attention on the time or from being bored?
If one is not bored, one does not focus on the time.

The issue then is the state of being within one's existence, not time. One's attitude within the experience of life.
If one is bored, this signifies one does not want to be there.
One wants to be doing something else. One is not in the present moment. One is looking\focusing on some more interesting future experience.


True.

Which brings up an interesting observation about the whole I AM thing.

I am bored.
I am interested.
I am happy.
I am sad.
I am joyful.
I am depressed.
I am fearfully in protection mode.
I am courageously in progress mode.

I am. I am what I have chosen to be.
If I am not what I want to be, then I do not know myself.


Yes, that’s one way to see it.

Here’s another.

Observing a sensation in my gut. A tightening, a resistance to the present moment. I allow it to be and give space to it. I don’t label it or let it go into my head where a story can be told about it and thus feed it.

(next post)

Lisa
08-09-2011, 05:30 PM
Dissolving The Pain Body

The pain body wants to survive, just like every other entity in existence.
And it can only survive if it gets you to unconsciously identify with it.
It can then rise up, take you over, “become” you and live through you.
It needs to get its “food” through you.
It will feed on any experience that resonates with its own kind of energy.
Anything that creates further pain in whatever form: anger, hatred, destructiveness, grief, emotional drama, violence, and even illness.

So the pain body, when it has taken you over, will create a situation in your life that reflects back its own energy frequency for it to feed on.
Pain can only feed on pain. Pain cannot feed on joy. It finds it quite indigestible.
Once the pain body has taken you over, you want more pain.
You become a victim or a perpetuator. You want to inflict pain or you want to suffer pain or both. There really isn’t much difference between the two.

You are not conscious of this of course, and will vehemently claim that you do not want pain. But look closely and you will find that your thinking and behavior are designed to keep the pain going, for yourself and others.

If you were truly conscious of it, the pattern would dissolve. For to want more pain is insanity and nobody is consciously insane.
The pain body- which is the dark shadow cast by the ego, is actually afraid of the light of your consciousness.
It is afraid of being found out.
Its survival depends on your unconscious identification with it.
As well as on your unconscious fear of facing the pain that lives in you.

But if you don’t face your pain, if you don’t bring the light of your consciousness into the pain, you will be forced to relive it again and again.
The pain body may seem to you like a dangerous monster that you cannot bear to look at, but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom that cannot prevail against the power of your presence.

Some spiritual teachings state that all pain is ultimately an illusion, and this is true. The question is, is it true for you? A mere belief doesn’t make it true. Do you want to feel pain the rest of your life and keep saying that it is an illusion? Does that free you from the pain?

What we are concerned with here is how you can realize this truth- that is, make it real in your own experience.

The pain body doesn’t want you to observe it directly and see it for what it is.
The moment you observe it, feel its energy field within you, and take your attention into it, the identification is broken.
A higher dimension of consciousness has now come in. I call it presence.

You are now the witness or the watcher of the pain body.

This means that it cannot use you anymore by pretending to be you, and it can no longer replenish itself through you.
You have found your own inner strength. You have accessed the power of now.

“What happens to the pain body when we become conscious enough to break our identification with it?”

Unconsciousness creates it, consciousness transmutes it into itself.

Just as you cannot fight the darkness, you cannot fight the pain body. Trying to do so would create inner conflict and thus further pain.

Watching it is enough.

Watching it implies accepting it as part of what is at that moment.

The pain body consists of trapped life-energy that has split off from your total energy field and has temporarily become autonomous through the unnatural process of mind-identification.

It has turned in on itself and become anti-life, like an animal trying to devour its own tail. Why do you think our civilization has become so life-destructive? But even the life-destructive forces are still life-energy.

When you start to disidentify and become the watcher, the pain body will continue to operate for a while, and will try to trick you into identifying with it again.

Although you are no longer energizing it through your identification, it has a certain momentum. Just like a spinning wheel that will keep turning for a while even when it is no longer being propelled. At this stage it may also create physical aches and pains in different parts of the body, but that won’t last long.

Stay present.

Stay conscious.

Be the ever-alert guardian of your inner space.

You need to be present enough to be able to watch the pain body directly and feel its energy. It then cannot control your thinking.

The moment your thinking is aligned with the energy field of the pain body, you are identified with it, and again feeding it with your thoughts.

For example, if anger is the predominate energy vibration of the pain body and you think angry thoughts, dwelling on what someone did to you, or what you are going to do to him or her, then you have become unconscious and the pain body has become “you”. Where there is anger there is always pain underneath.

Or when a dark mood comes upon you and you start getting into a negative mind pattern and thinking how dreadful your life is, your thinking has become aligned with your pain body. And you have become unconscious and vulnerable to the pain body’s attack.

“Unconscious” the way that I use the word here, means to be identified with some mental or emotional pattern.

It implies a complete absence of the watcher.

Sustained conscious attention severs the link between your pain body and your thought processes.

And it brings about the process of transmutation.

It is as if the pain becomes fuel for the flame of your consciousness, which then burns more brightly as a result.
This is the esoteric meaning of the ancient art of alchemy; the transmutation of base metal into gold, of suffering into consciousness.
The split within is healed- and you become whole again. Your responsibility then is to not create further pain.

Eckhart Tolle

Thinker108
09-09-2011, 05:26 AM
God would say, do you understand the language of silence

Mountain-Goat
16-09-2011, 12:11 AM
Another great post full of what you have learned, AC
But like most boys in 6th to 8th grade you
were thinking of girls when the rule "i before e except after c" was taught.
Shame.
:wink:
My serious response.
Shame?

Mountain-Goat
16-09-2011, 12:19 AM
And it takes being honest with oneself- not in denial.
Denial itself is simply a state of lying to oneself, depending on the context of course as to deny is also to refute another's false accusation about oneself.
But in the context of denying a truth about oneself that oneself is aware of is to lie to oneself.

However, what if one is unconscious of the truth that another presents of oneself; that one is unable to see what the other sees.
One may be honest in self evaluation, but simply cannot currently see what is obvious to another.
It may appear to the other as denial, or dishonesty, but to the self, they are being as honest as they can within the scope\range of their current abilities.
The accusation from another than oneself is in denial may not be accurate.

But to be self aware that oneself is in denial, this is lying.
Why do people lie.
Think of the many reasons why people lie to others, bu then think of the reasons why a person would lie to themself.
I see differences in the two scenarios.
Understanding the motives(thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc) of why a person lies will give another vital info on how to help them.

The emphasis in this discussion is on dealing with one's awareness of one's own dishonesty.
But, as one gains insight as to the motives of why another lies, then one will gain understanding of one's own self dishonesty.
What one learns of another aids one in understanding oneself and what one learns about oneself aids in understanding another.
Regardless of whether a person's teachings are correct or not, it's the responsibility of each person in what they choose to do with the information presented isn't it?
This gets complicated. But I see what you’re saying.
The ex christians at ex-christians.com, they are stuck, not moving forward in their life, not because christianity has errors in it, but because they refuse to take responsibility of themselves and acknowledge that they chose to believe in it.
They took responsibility and chose to deconvert, but became stuck after that.
I do not know if they are permanently stuck as I only witnessed a small part of their journey, but it's reasonable to say they became bogged down for a season.
Bogged down with a lot of emotional baggage, bitterness, resentment, feeling ripped off, etc, to the point where some of them do not trust anything beyond what the five senses can perceive.

In the case of Ramtha telling others to go live in the country.
Ramtha cannot tell anyone to do anything, it's the individual's response to the information that determines what the individual will do.
If a person chooses to believe another, that is their responsibility.
Who can say what the impossible man and the ****** trailer are for in your Mother's life.
If a nice house is irrelevant, then so too is a ****** trailer, yes?
Well, she Is my mom. But mostly it’s because she will be unhappy in the ****** trailer.
I think I understand what you are saying. Your love for her desires that she not be hurt.
But how do you know that her path of pain is not what she is meant to experience.

If someone told me on my wedding day that the marriage will fail and there will be much pain involved for many years but I am meant to experience it all for the immense benefits gained, I would think they were insane.
It's not until I had experienced it all and gained the life empowering insights from said journey could I look back and acknowledge I was meant to exeprience it all.

However, there's a discrepancy in that statement due to the conclusions wrought by hindsight.
Was I meant to experience it in order to gain inner strength and understanding or,
did I gain inner strength and understanding because I chose to learn from my experiences instead of being crushed by them.

Painful experiences don't teach. What a person learns is due to the response a person makes within each moment of their life.
And what I have learnt is avoiding pain reduces and restricts one's quality of life, and acknowledging and facing and delving into pain increases one's quality of life.

Avoiding pain produces instant but impermanent, shallow, weak pleasure\joy, but facing and dealing with pain eventually produces
permanent, deep and powerful pleasure\joy.
If you recall my 'unoffendable' OP, the quality of being unoffendable was due to years of dealing with all my inner self created pain.
Those ten years were much more painful than if I avoided those issues, but the end result is eleventee hundred times better than the life I had.

Sometimes a person just needs to listen to the experiential knowledge of others to gain understanding, to internally grow, to evolve, and sometimes a person needs to experience it themself to obtain all that.
I’m sorry AC.
Regarding my food poisoning, I had a fascinating experience within it.
The food poisoning lasted 2 weeks, with intense pain for the first 3 days, and in this 3rd week I am just beginning to re energise all that was used up to combate the illness.
During the first 3 days I tried being internally calm and centered.
Not easy to do when one's mind is focused on the pain, but for a second or two I was in no pain.

I could still sense the sensations within my body, but in my mind there was complete silence, calm and peace.
The eye in the centre of the cyclone.
And considering how intense the pain was for those few days, this silence was most beautiful.
It appears to me that the pain felt is actually in the mind and not in the area of the body that is ill or wounded.

I used to do this type of pain awareness\control thing with cramps( I used to suffer them regularly from lack of hydration)
With the cramps I could still feel the body contorting but there was no pain, just an odd sensation of the contorting.
Around the same time, I used to practice it while having a headache and was perplexed that I could not get into that painless state in these instances.

Theory back then was I could not achieve it because the pain was in the mind, where I was doing the work of focusing.
I could do it while the pain was apparently in another part of the body but not when the pain was apparently in my head, where I was doing the actual work of trying to do the detaching from the pain.

Conclusions as to why I could only maintain a very short painfree state while suffering from this food poisoning;
1: Lack of practice, experience and understanding.
2: I chose to focus on the pain because the sensations were quite strong, even though there was no pain whatsoever in that silent state, or there were self pity type thoughts,
or being overwhelmed by the inormity of the illness.
3: The painfree state, in comparison with the painful state seemed surreal, not real. So that is a belief issue.

Regardless of the miniscule and ineffectual results of the painfree state, I find that short moment to be something worthy of exploration.
Your mother and my mother have some similar traits. Even about the butter and leaving food out all day long! When my mother is going to cook, she sets refridgerated stuff out in the morning for cooking for dinner!
Yes, but what a price to pay. Why don’t they just listen???
"Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." - somewheres in the bible.
To understand a person, one simply has to quieten the mind, and listen to what a person is saying.
And from the words spoken, one can see what's actually going on inside a person.

It is said that the eyes are the widow to the soul.
I have found that the words a person speaks, their language, also reveals what's in their soul.
Add to that, other forms of language, body language, clothing, music preference and all other preferences.
Language is information and information is one form of energy recieved by one's senses.
Having a clear and silent mind enables one to hear\see\sense the constant influx of information being recieved by one's inner senses.

But the one many spiritual people seem to classify as unimportant is verbal language.
The usual statement is, "words aren't able to convey the truth of a matter".
I disagree. I find words reveal much that is hidden deep within a person's soul.

I've been down here taking care of mum for 10 months now. I had not seen her for 20 years so I actually have no, or very little knowledge of this completely different person I knew many years ago.
She has changed and so too have I so the relationship, getting to know each other, is in the 90% bracket of new.

For the first 3 months, if I asked myself why she doesn't listen, I could not come to any conclusions.
Now, thinking it about it recently, I now have a short list of reasons why she behaves the way she does.

Why don't people listen? Be still, listen and observe and you will know.
And once you understand why, then you can help them.
Because if you do not know how to reach them, how to find your way through the complex maze they have constructed around their soul, you will be hitting your head against the walls that these mazes are made of.
about Ramtha telling others to go live in the country to be self sufficient in preparation for something undisclosed...
Because of "The days to come"- an apocalyptic belief, and his students need to live in the country in certain places or underground to be spared.
Exactly. But Ramtha tells them what to do.
Ramtha is an entity- so he has no need for any outer thing, But JZ- the woman he comes through- is apparently wealthy and has all her needs met for the days to come.
Mind you I don’t know if Ramtha is "real" or a false profit, or what. I don’t care either.
But had my mother never found him, her life I feel would have been much better. Or maybe not!
Ah, I did not know this, that Ramtha is a channeled being. I though the chick was called Ramtha.
These below are ponderings only because I do not know much about her or the things she promotes.
But if there is an apocalypse to come, wealth may not be of any value, depending on what will be the attributes of the apocalypse.
But then I would think, if JZ is wealthy, why isn't she sharing her wealth to help others to prepare for the apocalypse.
If she isn't, nor is she living in the country, why are people believing her.
Considering a channeled being, I assume lives in a higher dimension, why the concern for safety in the physical realm for humans when the human life is temporal.
Talk of an apocalypse is fear inducing, fear being the restricter and usurper of life, but if the apocalypse will occur, then it is not fear inducing, its logical preparation.
All unsubstantiated conjecuring though.

And again, Ramtha cannot tell others what to do unless they believe.
People can say whatever they want to but it's ineffective if noone believes it.
The issue, of which I have been discovering in myself for a while now is, a person's life is ultimately controled by oneself, not by others.
The amount that externals control a person is proportional to what that person knows of self control.
And self control is derived from knowing self via self awareness.

And one of the reasons why people allow externals to control their life instead of taking responsibility for themselves;
They haven't grown up. A child is not responsible for themself, the parents are.
So the child cultivates a mindset of not needing to be responsible, the outer world will take care of all their needs.
Becoming an adult does not automatically change this mindset into one of sole responsibility. It has to be consciously done.

It's easier to remain irresponsible, to allow those in authority to control one's life.
It's easier to believe in something than to spend years testing to see if what is presented is actually valid.
One of the big drawcards for christianity is one doesn't have to do exert years of effort to pay the debt to god. One simply has to believe Jesus paid the account.

Some will put up with the inconsistencies of their beliefs, or the abusive nature of the authoritive figures of these beliefs rather than exert a ton of effort to find pure truth about life.
Some will settle for a life that has tolerable pain than suffer the extra pain involved in explorative journeys into unknowns to search for the true meaning of life.

Mountain-Goat
19-09-2011, 01:34 AM
A summary of a particular part of our conversion.(quoted in this manner purely for efficiency and ease of readability.)
Bear with me as my observations and enqiries are related to my incomprehension of these concepts.

Lisa: lol, I don't know, but I'd start with observer observing itself. (a practice- stepping behind the person, looking back into or through the eyes- a second or two of there it is. Very clear when this happens. No mistaking it.)
AC: But what do you mean by "person". Do you mean the physical-mind-emotion person,
Lisa: Yes. The self that comes from identification with mind and story. Me and mine. The personal self.
AC: or the consciousness that is aware of that form of the person?
Lisa: This is it. And without identification with mind, this is realized as who ‘I am".
Not the personal self, but the consciousness that is aware, even aware of a self that’s still thinking it is.
AC: But is not the personal self simply a specific manifestation of the consciousness, an extension, a form emminating from the formless?
Lisa: It is consciousness identified with mind- with form. The form itself is a manifestation of consciousness, the mind is a tool. But consciousness is lost in the mind in humans.
But there is a purpose for this.
AC: Is not the declaration of "I am" the same as the declaration of "me"? Is not "I am" simply another identity?
Lisa: No.
AC: This realisation of who "I am"...is not realisation a process of mind?
Lisa: Realization is not a process of mind.
AC: Is not Mind and Consciousness the same thing,
Lisa: No.
AC: or at least, Mind is an extension manifesting from Consciousness?
Lisa: I could go along with that.
AC: It is all one self, is it not?
Lisa: There is surface personal self, and when looking inward, one sees there is more to self than what's on the surface.
AC: I am not assuming you have said things of this nature, but this so reminds me of the repeated claims of others that there is a false self and a true self.
Lisa: Yes, I am "one of the others." Though we are dealing with words here, yes, there is a false self and a true self.
AC: That the false self is the ego. They claim there is no "me", no individual self. That it's all an illusion.
Lisa: Yes, I agree with them.
You state that the person\the personal self\the individual\ the 'Me','I', is manifested\created\formed from identification with one's mind.
I presume you mean the mind is doing the identifying, though I already see your words you may not mean that.
But you also state that mind-form is created by consciousness, the "I am", backed up by your semi agreement that mind is an extension of consciousness.
I am unclear as to what you are proposing here.
Please clarify, do you mean the mind is doing the work of identifying the personal self, or that consciousness is?
The reason why I ask this is because you later state that the form, the personal self, is created by the formless consciousness, but you also state that this individual self is false, an illusion and that consciousness is lost within it's own creation.

Prime example of my uncertainty: "It is consciousness identified with mind..."
Do you mean mind is doing the identifying, the work is done with the mind; or is consciousness acknowledging the existence of mind, with the already existing mind?

When you say 'identified', do you mean, being aware, acknowledgement, the act of conscious discovery of something, or do you mean in attaching to, becoming like, confining oneself within the parameters of the thing one is observing?
Either way, is not awareness the issue, is not consciousness another word for awareness, and is not mind also awareness?
ie: "I saw it in my mind" is a declaration of being aware of something.

You agree with me( it appears to me you do) that there is only one self, discovered by conscious awareness, but then you state there is a false self and a true self.
This looks like two selves now, or at least one self perceptually fragmented into two - inner conflict.

Please clarify any of these that you wish to Lisa, 'cus I'd really like to comprehend this whole illusion\ego\false self-true self\no "I"\"I am" stuff.

: What do you mean by identify and what constitutes an identity, because to me, "I" and "I am" are both identities(they are labels signifying particular attributes)?
: What is the process of realization and maybe what are the differences of a non realized and realized state(of a particular thing); and who or what part of self performs it?
: Specifically, in the context of self realization, what specifically is being realized?
: If form is a manifestation\creation of consciousness, and I presume mind is also (going by your "with mind- with form" statement), how does consciousness become lost in mind?
This looks to me again like an awareness issue. That the problem is awareness not the mind or ego.
If one is aware of one's position and oneself, one cannot be lost.
However, if mind is not manifested from consciousness, then from whence does mind manifest from?
: When I stated other's concepts of illusion and no individual self, false self, you allude to the problem has to do with using words. Please clarify why words are an issue regarding these concepts.
: What is mind and what is consciousness in the context of why you regard them as not the same thing and how mind manifests from consciousness?(I ask this one because surely there must be similar attributes of consciousness in mind.)
: What is awareness' role in all this?
There is surface personal self, and when looking inward, one sees there is more to self than what's on the surface.
I totally agree with this. This is how I have come to see myself via expansion of awareness, of observation, seeing beyond my current position.
But, how does false-true self, illusion, no "I" come into play from that concept?
I still do not see the logic in that theory.
It isn’t a theory, and it isn’t logical.
Is God logical?
It is not proven, so it remains theory and ~smiles~ thankyou for agreeing with me that it's illogical.
Um...unsure as to why god has been included here.
But, in answer to that question, I have not met god in order to come to any factual conclusions of this entity.
I can manifest all manner of beliefs, ideas and theories as to the attributes of god, but that is all they will ever be until I actually experience god.
And even then, my limited perception has potential to cause me to interpret the incoming data incorrectly.
Direct and lengthy communication\relationship with god would eventually disperse all errors.

However, hypomathematically, if there is an intelligence, a consciousness that is responsible for all of existence, then yes, this entity commonly referred to as god, is extremely logical.

My logical conclusion, that I currently classify\label as a truth, a foundation to work\explore\live from\by is there was(and still is, unless it died) an intelligence involved when the first living creature manifested. What this creative intelligence is, I have no idea.
The other foundation I live from\by is love.

I have no proof that either of these are actual truths, but I give them temporary classifications they are and live accordingly to what they mean to me.
And to be more precise, I'm not much concerned with whether things are true or not.
I am much more focused on whether something makes sense and I can use it for my and other's benefit.

mattie
19-09-2011, 09:55 AM
"Stop being a cry-baby and get on with it already"

Good one......

mattie
19-09-2011, 09:59 AM
The energies we call God, the Universe’s message would be:

Have NO fear;
BE ✥✥✥ JOY ✥✥✥;
Create.

Dragonfly1
19-09-2011, 10:43 AM
God would say:
Hey, Alternate Carpark!.......lighten up man!.....hehehehehe!.....Peace xx

Thinker108
20-09-2011, 04:36 AM
AC you are a efficient debater and your posts are so long, you can never defeated by anyone.
you can win debates but can you win the hearts? :smile: :smile:

Sundialed
20-09-2011, 05:32 AM
My purpose for you on this earth is equal in strength to the purpose you feel written in your heart.

Love,

G

Lisa
22-09-2011, 05:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lisa
And it takes being honest with oneself- not in denial.

AC- Denial itself is simply a state of lying to oneself, depending on the context of course as to deny is also to refute another's false accusation about oneself.
But in the context of denying a truth about oneself that oneself is aware of is to lie to oneself.

However, what if one is unconscious of the truth that another presents of oneself; that one is unable to see what the other sees.
One may be honest in self evaluation, but simply cannot currently see what is obvious to another.
It may appear to the other as denial, or dishonesty, but to the self, they are being as honest as they can within the scope\range of their current abilities.
The accusation from another than oneself is in denial may not be accurate.
This is a good point. But someone calls me. I’ve known them a long time. They are complaining again that their head hurts. And how they wish their head weren’t hurting. So I tell them to stop hitting their head against the wall. “What wall?” They ask. “The wall I keep telling you about, the one right in front of you.” Two months later we’re having the same conversation.
The point is good, where one can only see within the scope of their current abilities. But there is the obvious that is denial at it’s worst. “This person’s hand hurts, they keep hitting it with a hammer, but they keep denying it. Why? There’s something they are getting from it.
But to be self aware that oneself is in denial, this is lying.
Why do people lie.
Think of the many reasons why people lie to others, bu then think of the reasons why a person would lie to themself.
I see differences in the two scenarios.
Understanding the motives(thoughts, feelings, beliefs, etc) of why a person lies will give another vital info on how to help them.

A person lies, denies- like spiking the punch bowl. They want to keep believing in that punch as who they are.
The emphasis in this discussion is on dealing with one's awareness of one's own dishonesty.
But, as one gains insight as to the motives of why another lies, then one will gain understanding of one's own self dishonesty.
What one learns of another aids one in understanding oneself and what one learns about oneself aids in understanding another.
Whether it is self honesty or self dishonesty, or understanding of self or another self, to me it is moot, as the self is false.


Quote:
Quote:
Regardless of whether a person's teachings are correct or not, it's the responsibility of each person in what they choose to do with the information presented isn't it?
This gets complicated. But I see what you’re saying.
The ex christians at ex-christians.com, they are stuck, not moving forward in their life, not because christianity has errors in it, but because they refuse to take responsibility of themselves and acknowledge that they chose to believe in it.
They took responsibility and chose to deconvert, but became stuck after that.
I do not know if they are permanently stuck as I only witnessed a small part of their journey, but it's reasonable to say they became bogged down for a season.
Bogged down with a lot of emotional baggage, bitterness, resentment, feeling ripped off, etc, to the point where some of them do not trust anything beyond what the five senses can perceive.

In the case of Ramtha telling others to go live in the country.
Ramtha cannot tell anyone to do anything, it's the individual's response to the information that determines what the individual will do.
If a person chooses to believe another, that is their responsibility.
If a doctor gave you the wrong medicine and it harmed you, would not the doctor carry a burden of responsibility ? Ramtha presents himself as a Master Teacher, as a Master, and he is teaching his students many things, including to live sovereign in the country. I would say that if there is anyone who has reasonability, it is Ramtha.
And like your example, and good point, here are thousands of seekers who are following this Guru. “It may appear to the other as denial, or dishonesty, but to the self, they are being as honest as they can within the scope\range of their current abilities.” So where would the responsibility be in this? I like Nisargadatta’s “We are all responsible, and no one is responsible.” :smile:



Quote:
Who can say what the impossible man and the ****** trailer are for in your Mother's life.
If a nice house is irrelevant, then so too is a ****** trailer, yes?
Well, she Is my mom. But mostly it’s because she will be unhappy in the ****** trailer.
I think I understand what you are saying. Your love for her desires that she not be hurt.
But how do you know that her path of pain is not what she is meant to experience.

There is necessary suffering. There is unnecessary suffering. If one keeps hitting their head against the wall, that is unnecessary suffering. That is a dysfunction. But if a wasp stings you, or you adopt a kitten who hurts his foot, that is necessary suffering. Physical and emotional. If one is an alcoholic, and suffering from the same pain, it is the addiction to alcohol that is causing the pain. Get clean and sober, then that unnecessary suffering is over.
My mother has had a life time of unnecessary suffering.
If someone told me on my wedding day that the marriage will fail and there will be much pain involved for many years but I am meant to experience it all for the immense benefits gained, I would think they were insane.
It's not until I had experienced it all and gained the life empowering insights from said journey could I look back and acknowledge I was meant to exeprience it all.


I agree with this. But imagine you had eightmarriages and didn’t learn a darn thing.

However, there's a discrepancy in that statement due to the conclusions wrought by hindsight.
Was I meant to experience it in order to gain inner strength and understanding or,
did I gain inner strength and understanding because I chose to learn from my experiences instead of being crushed by them.

If I had to choose between the two- I’d choose the latter. For I don’t feel the circumstances are the thing, it could be any equally trying circumstances, by which one could learn. And being crushed by, maybe the most.
Painful experiences don't teach.
Oh I think they can be the best teachers.
What a person learns is due to the response a person makes within each moment of their life.


I like that.
And what I have learnt is avoiding pain reduces and restricts one's quality of life, and acknowledging and facing and delving into pain increases one's quality of life.

I agree. But there is also that where suffering is no longer necessary. Pain comes, but suffering the pain does not.
Avoiding pain produces instant but impermanent, shallow, weak pleasure\joy, but facing and dealing with pain eventually produces
permanent, deep and powerful pleasure\joy.
If you recall my 'unoffendable' OP, the quality of being unoffendable was due to years of dealing with all my inner self created pain.
Those ten years were much more painful than if I avoided those issues, but the end result is eleventee hundred times better than the life I had.

Yes. Feel the pain.
Sometimes a person just needs to listen to the experiential knowledge of others to gain understanding, to internally grow, to evolve, and sometimes a person needs to experience it themself to obtain all that.
Quote:
I’m sorry AC.
Regarding my food poisoning, I had a fascinating experience within it.
The food poisoning lasted 2 weeks, with intense pain for the first 3 days, and in this 3rd week I am just beginning to re energise all that was used up to combate the illness.
During the first 3 days I tried being internally calm and centered.
Not easy to do when one's mind is focused on the pain, but for a second or two I was in no pain.

I could still sense the sensations within my body, but in my mind there was complete silence, calm and peace.
The eye in the centre of the cyclone.
And considering how intense the pain was for those few days, this silence was most beautiful.
It appears to me that the pain felt is actually in the mind and not in the area of the body that is ill or wounded.

I used to do this type of pain awareness\control thing with cramps( I used to suffer them regularly from lack of hydration)
With the cramps I could still feel the body contorting but there was no pain, just an odd sensation of the contorting.
Around the same time, I used to practice it while having a headache and was perplexed that I could not get into that painless state in these instances.

Theory back then was I could not achieve it because the pain was in the mind, where I was doing the work of focusing.
I could do it while the pain was apparently in another part of the body but not when the pain was apparently in my head, where I was doing the actual work of trying to do the detaching from the pain.

Conclusions as to why I could only maintain a very short painfree state while suffering from this food poisoning;
1: Lack of practice, experience and understanding.
2: I chose to focus on the pain because the sensations were quite strong, even though there was no pain whatsoever in that silent state, or there were self pity type thoughts,
or being overwhelmed by the inormity of the illness.
3: The painfree state, in comparison with the painful state seemed surreal, not real. So that is a belief issue.

Regardless of the miniscule and ineffectual results of the painfree state, I find that short moment to be something worthy of exploration.
Very well done AC. A week ago or so I got a bug and had to go to the doc. Like I never do this. Got antibiotics. I don’t get ill, but guess what?


Quote:
Your mother and my mother have some similar traits. Even about the butter and leaving food out all day long! When my mother is going to cook, she sets refridgerated stuff out in the morning for cooking for dinner!
Yes, but what a price to pay. Why don’t they just listen???
"Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." - somewheres in the bible.
To understand a person, one simply has to quieten the mind, and listen to what a person is saying.
And from the words spoken, one can see what's actually going on inside a person.

It is said that the eyes are the widow to the soul.
I have found that the words a person speaks, their language, also reveals what's in their soul.
Add to that, other forms of language, body language, clothing, music preference and all other preferences.
Language is information and information is one form of energy recieved by one's senses.


Having a clear and silent mind enables one to hear\see\sense the constant influx of information being recieved by one's inner senses.


Nice.


But the one many spiritual people seem to classify as unimportant is verbal language.
The usual statement is, "words aren't able to convey the truth of a matter".
I disagree. I find words reveal much that is hidden deep within a person's soul.

I've been down here taking care of mum for 10 months now. I had not seen her for 20 years so I actually have no, or very little knowledge of this completely different person I knew many years ago.
She has changed and so too have I so the relationship, getting to know each other, is in the 90% bracket of new.

20 years? wow
For the first 3 months, if I asked myself why she doesn't listen, I could not come to any conclusions.
Now, thinking it about it recently, I now have a short list of reasons why she behaves the way she does.

Why don't people listen? Be still, listen and observe and you will know.


Great answer. I was being on the rhetorical side.
And once you understand why, then you can help them.
Because if you do not know how to reach them, how to find your way through the complex maze they have constructed around their soul, you will be hitting your head against the walls that these mazes are made of.
Hey! Lots of hitting heads against walls! Lol
I spent decades trying to help my mother. I started when I was three years old. I no longer am interested in helping her. But I do love her, and as a daughter I want her to be happy and have a nice life.

Quote:
about Ramtha telling others to go live in the country to be self sufficient in preparation for something undisclosed...
Because of "The days to come"- an apocalyptic belief, and his students need to live in the country in certain places or underground to be spared.
Exactly. But Ramtha tells them what to do.
Ramtha is an entity- so he has no need for any outer thing, But JZ- the woman he comes through- is apparently wealthy and has all her needs met for the days to come.
Mind you I don’t know if Ramtha is "real" or a false profit, or what. I don’t care either.
But had my mother never found him, her life I feel would have been much better. Or maybe not!
Ah, I did not know this, that Ramtha is a channeled being. I though the chick was called Ramtha.
These below are ponderings only because I do not know much about her or the things she promotes.
But if there is an apocalypse to come, wealth may not be of any value, depending on what will be the attributes of the apocalypse.
But then I would think, if JZ is wealthy, why isn't she sharing her wealth to help others to prepare for the apocalypse.
If she isn't, nor is she living in the country, why are people believing her.
Considering a channeled being, I assume lives in a higher dimension, why the concern for safety in the physical realm for humans when the human life is temporal.
QUITE.
Talk of an apocalypse is fear inducing, fear being the restricter and usurper of life, but if the apocalypse will occur, then it is not fear inducing, its logical preparation.
All unsubstantiated conjecuring though.

And again, Ramtha cannot tell others what to do unless they believe.
People can say whatever they want to but it's ineffective if noone believes it.
The issue, of which I have been discovering in myself for a while now is, a person's life is ultimately controled by oneself, not by others.
The amount that externals control a person is proportional to what that person knows of self control.
And self control is derived from knowing self via self awareness.


Knowing self via self awareness.
I like this.


And one of the reasons why people allow externals to control their life instead of taking responsibility for themselves;
They haven't grown up.
Right.
A child is not responsible for themself, the parents are.
So the child cultivates a mindset of not needing to be responsible, the outer world will take care of all their needs.
True.

Becoming an adult does not automatically change this mindset into one of sole responsibility. It has to be consciously done.

It's easier to remain irresponsible, to allow those in authority to control one's life.
It's easier to believe in something than to spend years testing to see if what is presented is actually valid.
One of the big drawcards for christianity is one doesn't have to do exert years of effort to pay the debt to god. One simply has to believe Jesus paid the account.


Where do I sign up?

Some will put up with the inconsistencies of their beliefs, or the abusive nature of the authoritive figures of these beliefs rather than exert a ton of effort to find pure truth about life.
Some will settle for a life that has tolerable pain than suffer the extra pain involved in explorative journeys into unknowns to search for the true meaning of life.


Here Here.

Lisa
22-09-2011, 05:56 PM
A summary of a particular part of our conversion.(quoted in this manner purely for efficiency and ease of readability.)
Bear with me as my observations and enqiries are related to my incomprehension of these concepts.

You state that the person\the personal self\the individual\ the 'Me','I', is manifested\created\formed from identification with one's mind.
I presume you mean the mind is doing the identifying, though I already see your words you may not mean that.
But you also state that mind-form is created by consciousness, the "I am", backed up by your semi agreement that mind is an extension of consciousness.
I am unclear as to what you are proposing here.
Please clarify, do you mean the mind is doing the work of identifying the personal self, or that consciousness is?
The reason why I ask this is because you later state that the form, the personal self, is created by the formless consciousness, but you also state that this individual self is false, an illusion and that consciousness is lost within it's own creation.

Prime example of my uncertainty: "It is consciousness identified with mind..."
Do you mean mind is doing the identifying, the work is done with the mind; or is consciousness acknowledging the existence of mind, with the already existing mind?

When you say 'identified', do you mean, being aware, acknowledgement, the act of conscious discovery of something, or do you mean in attaching to, becoming like, confining oneself within the parameters of the thing one is observing?
Either way, is not awareness the issue, is not consciousness another word for awareness, and is not mind also awareness?
ie: "I saw it in my mind" is a declaration of being aware of something.

You agree with me( it appears to me you do) that there is only one self, discovered by conscious awareness, but then you state there is a false self and a true self.
This looks like two selves now, or at least one self perceptually fragmented into two - inner conflict.

Please clarify any of these that you wish to Lisa, 'cus I'd really like to comprehend this whole illusion\ego\false self-true self\no "I"\"I am" stuff.

: What do you mean by identify and what constitutes an identity, because to me, "I" and "I am" are both identities(they are labels signifying particular attributes)?
: What is the process of realization and maybe what are the differences of a non realized and realized state(of a particular thing); and who or what part of self performs it?
: Specifically, in the context of self realization, what specifically is being realized?
: If form is a manifestation\creation of consciousness, and I presume mind is also (going by your "with mind- with form" statement), how does consciousness become lost in mind?
This looks to me again like an awareness issue. That the problem is awareness not the mind or ego.
If one is aware of one's position and oneself, one cannot be lost.
However, if mind is not manifested from consciousness, then from whence does mind manifest from?
: When I stated other's concepts of illusion and no individual self, false self, you allude to the problem has to do with using words. Please clarify why words are an issue regarding these concepts.
: What is mind and what is consciousness in the context of why you regard them as not the same thing and how mind manifests from consciousness?(I ask this one because surely there must be similar attributes of consciousness in mind.)
: What is awareness' role in all this?

I totally agree with this. This is how I have come to see myself via expansion of awareness, of observation, seeing beyond my current position.
But, how does false-true self, illusion, no "I" come into play from that concept?

It is not proven, so it remains theory and ~smiles~ thankyou for agreeing with me that it's illogical.
Um...unsure as to why god has been included here.
But, in answer to that question, I have not met god in order to come to any factual conclusions of this entity.
I can manifest all manner of beliefs, ideas and theories as to the attributes of god, but that is all they will ever be until I actually experience god.
And even then, my limited perception has potential to cause me to interpret the incoming data incorrectly.
Direct and lengthy communication\relationship with god would eventually disperse all errors.

However, hypomathematically, if there is an intelligence, a consciousness that is responsible for all of existence, then yes, this entity commonly referred to as god, is extremely logical.

My logical conclusion, that I currently classify\label as a truth, a foundation to work\explore\live from\by is there was(and still is, unless it died) an intelligence involved when the first living creature manifested. What this creative intelligence is, I have no idea.
The other foundation I live from\by is love.

I have no proof that either of these are actual truths, but I give them temporary classifications they are and live accordingly to what they mean to me.
And to be more precise, I'm not much concerned with whether things are true or not.
I am much more focused on whether something makes sense and I can use it for my and other's benefit.


Oh My! just finished a post to you, I'm not all that well. When I read this I blew a gasket. It was well written, great questions, and lots of thought, but not even my pinky toe can play in this.

The main difference is your quote:


And to be more precise, I'm not much concerned with whether things are true or not.
I am much more focused on whether something makes sense and I can use it for my and other's benefit.


And this is Rumi's


Would you like to have revealed to you
the truth of the Friend?
Leave the rind
and descend into the pith.
Fold within fold,
the Beloved drowns in his own being.
This world is drenched with that drowning.



The slience, the stillness between thoughts and words is all the answer anyone needs.

It's not that serious.


The other foundation I live from\by is love


:hug3:

Humm
22-09-2011, 06:26 PM
God says, "Yes!" :D

Mountain-Goat
23-09-2011, 12:50 AM
Dissolving The Pain Body
Pain body?
The pain body wants to survive, just like every other entity in existence.
I find it quite fascinating how he has created an entity out of the sensations of pain.
Much the same way people have created that other entity, the ego.
These kind of things smell like religious dogma to me.
And it can only survive if it gets you to unconsciously identify with it.
It can then rise up, take you over, "become" you and live through you.
It needs to get its "food" through you.
It will feed on any experience that resonates with its own kind of energy.
Anything that creates further pain in whatever form: anger, hatred, destructiveness, grief, emotional drama, violence, and even illness.
So the pain body, when it has taken you over, will create a situation in your life that reflects back its own energy frequency for it to feed on.
Pain can only feed on pain. Pain cannot feed on joy. It finds it quite indigestible.
Once the pain body has taken you over, you want more pain.
You become a victim or a perpetuator. You want to inflict pain or you want to suffer pain or both. There really isn’t much difference between the two.
I have seen this before...in religions. It's called possession by an evil spirit.
This is Mr.Tolle's concept about pain is it ? ~facepalm~
+
And this bit, "Pain can only feed on pain."
I agree that Mr.Tolle's theoretical pain body monster may feed on pain, but pain itself? A sensation feeding? A sensation feeding on similar sensations? I think not.
You are not conscious of this of course, and will vehemently claim that you do not want pain. But look closely and you will find that your thinking and behavior are designed to keep the pain going, for yourself and others.
He changes tact here. Now this separate entity to oneself, this Pain Body, is no longer the source of the pain. Now it is self's thinking and behaviour that is the source of the problem.
Thinking and beliefs that self is unconscious of.
And who designed one's thinking and behaviour to keep the pain going? Self did, not ego or pain body.
Why create a separate entity (pain body) as the source of one's pain when he already acknowledges that pain is caused and perpetuated by one's unconsciousness, one's lack of awareness of self?
If you were truly conscious of it, the pattern would dissolve. For to want more pain is insanity and nobody is consciously insane.
The pain body- which is the dark shadow cast by the ego, is actually afraid of the light of your consciousness.
A theoretical entity(pain body) manifests from another theoretical entity(ego)? ~facepalm~
Patterns don't dissolve in the light of consciousness.
These patterns, that self has created unconsciously, can now be removed consciously, by choosing to.
The light of oneself illuminates into the depths of one's psyche, where the dysfunctional patterns reside.
One becomes aware of them because of this light, and then, one chooses to do something about them.
It is afraid of being found out.
Its survival depends on your unconscious identification with it.
As well as on your unconscious fear of facing the pain that lives in you.
Unconscious identification? Quite the oxymoron there huh?
And the fear one. It's being conscious, not unconscious, of one's fear that stops one from facing things.
If one is unconscious of fear, then there is no awareness of fear because one is not conscious of it.
But if you don’t face your pain, if you don’t bring the light of your consciousness into the pain, you will be forced to relive it again and again.
I agree about facing your issues, though I don't agree with being forced to. You are choosing to, just not being aware you are.
And because one is not aware one is choosing to, one may then theorize that an entity(pain body) is forcing one to.
The pain body may seem to you like a dangerous monster that you cannot bear to look at,
No more than any other Hollywood monster.
but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom that cannot prevail against the power of your presence.
If it's an unsubstantial phantom, then why the declaration that a power is needed to dissolve it?
I mean, check this out..
The pain body wants to survive, just like every other entity in existence.
And it can only survive if it gets you to unconsciously identify with it.
It can then rise up, take you over, "become" you and live through you.
It needs to get its "food" through you.
It will feed on any experience that resonates with its own kind of energy.
Anything that creates further pain in whatever form: anger, hatred, destructiveness, grief, emotional drama, violence, and even illness.
So the pain body, when it has taken you over, will create a situation in your life that reflects back its own energy frequency for it to feed on.
Pain can only feed on pain. Pain cannot feed on joy. It finds it quite indigestible.
Once the pain body has taken you over, you want more pain.
You become a victim or a perpetuator. You want to inflict pain or you want to suffer pain or both. There really isn’t much difference between the two.
He goes into great detail defining this entity that is able to take possession of you, but then declares...
Oh by the way, it's actually nothing more than a concept\belief existing only in your mind and there is no evidence that it actually exists.
That is what unsubstantial phantom means.
but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom that cannot prevail against the power of your presence.
He creates a fictional entity, the pain body, the monster, as the source of one's pain, and then declares it doesn't exist.
If this entity does not exist, then who is the creator of one's pain? Self. Not ego or pain body.
Some spiritual teachings state that all pain is ultimately an illusion, and this is true. The question is, is it true for you? A mere belief doesn’t make it true. Do you want to feel pain the rest of your life and keep saying that it is an illusion? Does that free you from the pain?
Here's some wacky stuff.
He believes that the spiritual teaching that pain is illusion, is truth, yet also states that believing something doesn't make it a truth.
And then he says the only way 'pain is illusion' will remove pain from one's life is to believe that 'pain is illusion' is a truth, but believing it's true doesn't mean it is true.
And if 'pain is illusion' were a truth in his mind, he wouldn't be talking about ego and pain body would he, he would be talking about pain being an illusion.
~facepalm~
What we are concerned with here is how you can realize this truth- that is, make it real in your own experience.
Here he is again, claiming something is a truth.
The pain body doesn’t want you to observe it directly and see it for what it is.
The moment you observe it, feel its energy field within you, and take your attention into it, the identification is broken.
This means that it cannot use you anymore by pretending to be you, and it can no longer replenish itself through you.
Is this the same pain body that he previously declared to be...
but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom...
A higher dimension of consciousness has now come in. I call it presence.
Apparently, Mr.Tolle believes your presence was absent from you while the pain body was in possession of your self, or you were identified with it.
"What happens to the pain body when we become conscious enough to break our identification with it?"
Our indentification with it? Doesn't he mean our creation of it, this phantom entity that only exists as a concept in our head?
Unconsciousness creates it, consciousness transmutes it into itself.
Huh? Unconsciousness creates the entity known as the pain body, and consciousness transmutes the pain body into the pain body. Wha?
Just as you cannot fight the darkness, you cannot fight the pain body. Trying to do so would create inner conflict and thus further pain.
Fight the darkness? What does that even mean? Is this another spiritual catch phrase, a buzz word?
Apparently, darkness is also an entity unto itself. Taking possession of people just like the ego and pain body perhaps?
The pain body consists of trapped life-energy that has split off from your total energy field and has temporarily become autonomous through the unnatural process of mind-identification.
It has turned in on itself and become anti-life, like an animal trying to devour its own tail. Why do you think our civilization has become so life-destructive? But even the life-destructive forces are still life-energy.
When you start to disidentify and become the watcher, the pain body will continue to operate for a while, and will try to trick you into identifying with it again.
Although you are no longer energizing it through your identification, it has a certain momentum. Just like a spinning wheel that will keep turning for a while even when it is no longer being propelled. At this stage it may also create physical aches and pains in different parts of the body, but that won’t last long.
You need to be present enough to be able to watch the pain body directly and feel its energy. It then cannot control your thinking.

Well...so much for..
but I assure you that it is an insubstantial phantom...
The moment your thinking is aligned with the energy field of the pain body, you are identified with it, and again feeding it with your thoughts.
Or, how about dispensing with blaming others (fictional characters) for your pain, unproductive thoughts, feelings and behavior and take responsibility(accept and own) that oneself is totally responsible for one's life.
For example, if anger is the predominate energy vibration of the pain body and you think angry thoughts, dwelling on what someone did to you, or what you are going to do to him or her, then you have become unconscious and the pain body has become "you". Where there is anger there is always pain underneath.
Why bring a pain body into the equation. Simply acknowledge you have no self control due to lack of knowledge of yourself.
Or when a dark mood comes upon you and you start getting into a negative mind pattern and thinking how dreadful your life is, your thinking has become aligned with your pain body. And you have become unconscious and vulnerable to the pain body’s attack.
Dark moods do not come upon oneself. A person chooses their moods.
You get into negative thinking patterns because you are unconsciously choosing to.
There is no thinking aligning with a pain body. There is just one self, choosing thoughts that create one's life.
"Unconscious" the way that I use the word here, means to be identified with some mental or emotional pattern.
It implies a complete absence of the watcher.
Not sure why he would offer another definition of the word 'unconscious'. Especially when is so dissimilar from the accepted definition.
And where is the watcher, the presence of oneself in these instances? Gone to the corner shop or something?
Sustained conscious attention severs the link between your pain body and your thought processes.
Again, why bring a pain body into these equations.
How about, sustained consciousness emits light into one's unknown areas and one, upon expansion of knowledge and understanding of oneself, chooses to cease inflicting pain on oneself and others.
And it brings about the process of transmutation.
I agree that consciousness is part of the process of transmutation, but why the creation of this pain body, or ego for that matter?
It is as if the pain becomes fuel for the flame of your consciousness, which then burns more brightly as a result.
This is the esoteric meaning of the ancient art of alchemy; the transmutation of base metal into gold, of suffering into consciousness.
This don't make sense. How does consciousness transmute suffering into consciousness?
How about, through consciousness, suffering is transmuted into joy, via understanding of oneself of why one was inflicting suffering upon oneself and others via unproductive thought patterns and beliefs hidden from one's view.
The split within is healed- and you become whole again. Your responsibility then is to not create further pain.
Creating more divisions by creating entities of ego and a pain body does not help with wholeness.
I agree, a person's life is their responsibility in that it is the individual whole self, and not an ego or pain body that creates their inner pain.

Mountain-Goat
23-09-2011, 01:00 AM
AC you are a efficient debater and your posts are so long, you can never defeated by anyone.
you can win debates but can you win the hearts? :smile: :smile:
If you think I am debating, then that is what you see.
If you think I am interacting with others simply to win, then that is what you see.
However, you will respond according to how you percieve reality.

Thanks for asking about my motives of why I am interacting with others. Yeah, that was sarcasm. ~smiles~

I express my observations. I make enquiries of that which I do not understand or does not make sense to me.
I do not regard my observations as truth, nor do I regard them as false.
They are simply my current observations, obtained from my current explorations.
If my observations do not agree with another's observation, and they are offended by this, then that is there problem, not mine.

Nor do I desire to win hearts. What does than even mean, to win a heart.
Do I have to perform some type of advarsarial battle in order secure another's approval?

I do not need or request other's approval of my observations.
I am simply sharing, just like everyone else.

Mountain-Goat
23-09-2011, 01:09 AM
God would say:
Hey, Alternate Carpark!.......lighten up man!.....hehehehehe!.....Peace xx

I seriously doubt god would tell me how to be.
Instead, going by what little I have read of this entity, I think god would say, "Be yourself, know yourself, explore yourself."
'Cus if this god that everyone keeps talking about is love, then he/she/it would accept me just as I am, but encourage me to look deeper within.

Just because you percieve I am uptight, does not mean I am.
You are comparing me to what you think I should be like.
And in doing so, you make the bizarre claim that this is what god thinks.

Thinker108
23-09-2011, 04:50 AM
If you think I am debating, then that is what you see.
If you think I am interacting with others simply to win, then that is what you see.
However, you will respond according to how you percieve reality.

Thanks for asking about my motives of why I am interacting with others. Yeah, that was sarcasm. ~smiles~

I express my observations. I make enquiries of that which I do not understand or does not make sense to me.
I do not regard my observations as truth, nor do I regard them as false.
They are simply my current observations, obtained from my current explorations.
If my observations do not agree with another's observation, and they are offended by this, then that is there problem, not mine.

Nor do I desire to win hearts. What does than even mean, to win a heart.
Do I have to perform some type of advarsarial battle in order secure another's approval?

I do not need or request other's approval of my observations.
I am simply sharing, just like everyone else.

that was sarcasm

: I like this because I like you:smile:


I do not need or request other's approval


I approve it:smile:

thanks for your views on my expressions

n2mec
24-09-2011, 02:26 PM
two scoops of chocolate ice cream please.

Mountain-Goat
26-09-2011, 01:04 AM
Lisa, if you are not aware, though I think you already are, i do like to explore things deeply.
If you find you do not want to as much as I do, then it's ok, simply go as far as you are comfortable with.
With that said, I am enjoying our time together while at peace knowing it will have to end sometime.
This is a good point. But someone calls me. I’ve known them a long time. They are complaining again that their head hurts. And how they wish their head weren’t hurting. So I tell them to stop hitting their head against the wall. "What wall?" They ask. "The wall I keep telling you about, the one right in front of you." Two months later we’re having the same conversation.
The point is good, where one can only see within the scope of their current abilities. But there is the obvious that is denial at it’s worst. "This person’s hand hurts, they keep hitting it with a hammer, but they keep denying it. Why? There’s something they are getting from it.
If a person does not express which one it is, then any conclusions as to which one (denial or unconsciousness) it is, remains as speculation\theory.
I find them both to be either interconnected to each other, or the line between them is very thin in such a way that it's easy to mistake one for the other.
Deduction can offer reasonable clues as to what's going on upside a person's head, but I have learnt to never treat these clues as fact.
In the context of helping another, it's vital to know why a person is doing X, in order to formulate the correct help for them.
+
However, whether a person is in denial or unconscious, it's their life, their responsibility, and if X amount of time and effort to help them (addressing denial and unconsciousness) to the best of one's knowledge and ability,
and they still have not made any ground, it's then becomes the helper's task to evaluate everything involved in the case and come to a decision to either continue to help them or let that person be.
The proverbial, you can't help someone who won't help themself, comes to mind.
+
If a person will not listen (explore and try to see what the helper sees), there comes a time where the helper must walk away.
The helper is wasting their time and the sufferer's.
Love for the other enables one to exert tons of time-energy to help others, but there will come a time when the helper must acknowledge they ain't getting anywhere.
If that time never comes, then the helper may remain or become frustrated of another's inability to change.
And, it's vital for the helper to evaluate their procedures to see if their efforts are why the sufferer hasn't transformed.
+
In your first example of the person who complains of their hurting head and you repeatedly have told them of the wall they keep hitting...
that still could go either way; denial or unconsciousness.
However, I have seen this a few times from my observations of the small number of people I have tried to help;
people can be unconscious of their denial, unconscious of their unconsciousness, deny their unconsciousness or deny their denial.
+
Even when a person verbally acknowledges the problem, the inner hinderances etc, and they acknowledge the solution...there is still a level of denial or unconsciousness that stops the person from actually being truly\totally\life changinly aware of the acknowledgements thay have just made.
There is a surface acknowledgement, but it has not penetrated deeper in where the actual transformation decisions and work is done.
There are other reasons as well, fear, lack of self confidence(self trust) attachment...but those are indepth issues in themselves.
+
To the helper it appears that the sufferer has finally seen, but they actually haven't.
And depending on how many wounds a person has and the resultant dysfunctional coping mechanisms they have developed in their lifetime, a direct and compassionate "That wall there!" simply will not get through to them.
One may even get an acknowledgement from them, but the sufferer is unaware they have acknowledged. Thus is the bizarre nature of unconsciousness-denial.
+
The trick is not to show a person the solution, but to help the suffer heal their sight so that they can see what the helper can see.
In this case, hitting themself with a hammer is not the problem, it's why they continue to hit themself, that is the source of their problem.
A person lies, denies- like spiking the punch bowl. They want to keep believing in that punch as who they are.
~smiles~ Huh?
Whether it is self honesty or self dishonesty, or understanding of self or another self, to me it is moot, as the self is false.
Please expound the meaning of self is false.
Specifically, define self so I know what you are referring to and then what you mean by this entity is false.
And, which is important for me to understand this false self concept, who or what is doing the actual defining as you think and type it out.
~smiles~ Hopefully you wont throw your arms up in the air in exasperation like some of the others here that I have asked.
If a doctor gave you the wrong medicine and it harmed you, would not the doctor carry a burden of responsibility ? Ramtha presents himself as a Master Teacher, as a Master, and he is teaching his students many things, including to live sovereign in the country. I would say that if there is anyone who has reasonability, it is Ramtha.
Yes, the doctor is responsible for his/he own actions, just like everyone else.
Is this doctor aware the medicine was wrong, that is, usually the doctor believes the correct medicine was given.
If Ramtha, or JZ, chooses to believe their information is truth, they are free to do so, just as every follower is free to believe.
But notice how the doctor gave, not force. Ramtha/JZ does not force others to do anything, a person freely chooses to follow and believe.
And like your example, and good point, here are thousands of seekers who are following this Guru. "It may appear to the other as denial, or dishonesty, but to the self, they are being as honest as they can within the scope\range of their current abilities." So where would the responsibility be in this? I like Nisargadatta’s "We are all responsible, and no one is responsible."
Hypomathematically, Ramtha/JZ are blatent decievers. So what! A person cannot be decieved unless they choose to by not testing and evaluating, by taking the easy road and believing what is presented without verifying.
Yes, charlatans in religion, business, governement, etc take advantage of unthinking lazy people, and it would be a better world if both types of people did not exist.
But that will only come about when the individual takes responsibility for themself and not when the individual waits for others to stop being a jerk.
Charlatans become powerless and eventually disappear when others refuse to be beguiled by them.
The responsibility lies within each individual to contiinue to expand their insight/awareness/consciousness in order to not be decieved.
And it happens quite frequently that because of experiences of deception, one grows in awareness. Learning from mistakes.
+
I totally believed the bible's version of reality for a few years before my then level of awareness began to see the math not adding up in many areas.
Who was responsible for being decieved? I was.
And it wasn't even a case of deception. The people teaching\proclaiming the religion were not blatently trying to decieve me,
they simply believed what they were teaching was truth.
No blatent deception. the only error they make, as does everyone in these situations, is believe it's truth.
And I am not saying that there are no con artists in these situations, I just haven't come across any in my travels thus far and I readily admit I don't have much milage under my belt.
My view is limited within my experiences and it would be foolish\irrational\illogical of me to think my limited views are absolute truths.
+
But see, they are free to believe anything they want, just like everyone else.
And if a person chooses to believe as truth, the concepts of another, that's their responsibility.
It doesn't matter what the motives of the teacher are, what's important for the life of the listener is what they do with with the information presented.
There is necessary suffering. There is unnecessary suffering. If one keeps hitting their head against the wall, that is unnecessary suffering. That is a dysfunction. But if a wasp stings you, or you adopt a kitten who hurts his foot, that is necessary suffering. Physical and emotional. If one is an alcoholic, and suffering from the same pain, it is the addiction to alcohol that is causing the pain. Get clean and sober, then that unnecessary suffering is over.
My mother has had a life time of unnecessary suffering.
I hear ya Lisa. I observe my mum and see a lot of unnecessary suffering.
However, necessary or not, the reality is she is suffering by continuing to hit her head against the wall.
Take necessay and unnecessary out of the equation and what is left is the reality of suffering that still requires a solution.
+
It's sometimes painful to watch, but also I am observing and discovering what is internally causing her to do these things and each day I do or say something to help her look inside herself to see why she does these things.
And because I regard them as theory and not fact, it's a trial and error journey of verification that moves along at her pace, not mine.
I specifically know the mechanisms of all the dysfunctions\wounds I have healed myself of, but my mother is not me.
She may be outwardly behaving similar to how I used to, but that does not mean the source dysfunction(s) are the same.
+
We've has 2 small breakthroughs in the last 10 months. Two bricks have been removed but there's still a whole prison to dismantle.
Brick by brick, nice and slow, because instant freedom scares the heebie geebies out of long term prisoners, even though they deeply desire freedom.
Even though mum yearns for it, too much light too quickly hurts the eyes of those that have lived in darkness most of their life.
If someone told me on my wedding day that the marriage will fail and there will be much pain involved for many years but I am meant to experience it all for the immense benefits gained, I would think they were insane.
It's not until I had experienced it all and gained the life empowering insights from said journey could I look back and acknowledge I was meant to exeprience it all.
I agree with this. But imagine you had eightmarriages and didn’t learn a darn thing.
But that is my responsibility if I didn't.
Frustrating for those that have tried to help me during those 8 marriages, but then too, the frustration of the helpers is their responsibilty.
+
I have learnt something these last few years.
Being born an empath (I do not know how powerful my empathic qualities are in comparison to others), but it caused much pain all my life till recently.
I have learnt how to love without being negatively affected by the suffering of others.
One way of viewing it is I have stopped taking on the responsibilites of those I am cariing for.
I am not perfect at it as mum's self destructive ways pains me every now and then, but nowhere near as bad as it used to be.
I find being clear and at peace amongst mum's stormy life is the best way I can offer assistance to her.
If I become tossed by her waves, I am of no benefit to her.
Painful experiences don't teach. What a person learns is due to the response a person makes within each moment of their life.
Oh I think they can be the best teachers.

But if two people experience the same thing but only one learns, then the circumstance is not the teacher, self is.
The responsibility comes back to the self.
I agree. But there is also that where suffering is no longer necessary. Pain comes, but suffering the pain does not.
Here's my fav quote of pain/suffering...
+
"Pain happens, but suffering is optional. When pain comes, make use of the experience, but do not wallow in it.
When you accidentally place your finger in a flame, it is supposed to hurt just long enough for you to pull it out.
If you think there is value in keeping it there, you will be a crispy critter. Pain is a minor element of life, unless you are indulging it.
Then it becomes suffering. Get the message and then get on with your life, which is far more about joy than sorrow." - Alan Cohen
Very well done AC. A week ago or so I got a bug and had to go to the doc. Like I never do this. Got antibiotics. I don’t get ill, but guess what?
What?
Why don't people listen? Be still, listen and observe and you will know.
Great answer. I was being on the rhetorical side.
Please explain as I just looked up rhetorical, I do not understand what you mean that your question was rhetorical.

I assume it has to do with this...
I spent decades trying to help my mother. I started when I was three years old. I no longer am interested in helping her. But I do love her, and as a daughter I want her to be happy and have a nice life.
One of the big drawcards for christianity is one doesn't have to do exert years of effort to pay the debt to god. One simply has to believe Jesus paid the account.
Where do I sign up?
~smiles~ Your local catholic or charismatic born again church or the plethora of variants inbetween can accomodate you.
The main difference is your quote:
And to be more precise, I'm not much concerned with whether things are true or not.
I am much more focused on whether something makes sense and I can use it for my and other's benefit.
And this is Rumi's
+
"Would you like to have revealed to you
the truth of the Friend?
Leave the rind
and descend into the pith.
Fold within fold,
the Beloved drowns in his own being.
This world is drenched with that drowning." - Rumi
+
The slience, the stillness between thoughts and words is all the answer anyone needs.
It's not that serious.
Um, what is Rumi speaking of, 'cus I interpret what he/she says is exactly how I explore.?
And I am unclear of the drowning reference.
And you speak of differences but it is from the stillness that I gain understanding, thus see what makes sense.

Mountain-Goat
26-09-2011, 01:05 AM
: I like this because I like you:smile:

I approve it:smile:

thanks for your views on my expressions
Please share how you came to your conclusion I am debating.

Miss Hepburn
26-09-2011, 01:17 AM
What would God say:

"If you don't come to me soon I think I will explode.
I may have to make a bird's song louder and more beautiful outside your bedroom window to waken you.
I may have to make the cool Autumn days longer and more colorful.
I may have to fill your dreams with images of love in gardens of flowers.
I may have to make sure you find everything you're looking for a bit faster.
Or
maybe I may have to make sure you find nothing in this world you are looking for...
maybe then you will look to Me and find Me... finally."
~God

Thinker108
26-09-2011, 03:22 AM
Please share how you came to your conclusion I am debating.
I don’t believe in conclusions, I want to explore the world constantly
how you can say the sentence “you are a good debater” is not a praising?
do you think debate is a bad thing

Mountain-Goat
26-09-2011, 03:33 AM
I don’t believe in conclusions, I want to explore the world constantly
how you can say the sentence “you are a good debater” is not a praising?
do you think debate is a bad thing
~smiles~ Ok, so you don't like being classified as someone who concludes. I'm down with that Thinker108.

So, let me reword my enquiry.
Please share why you think I am debating.
Please answer this first, then I will joyfully answer your enquiry, which I find a rather good question by the way.

Thinker108
26-09-2011, 03:42 AM
AC, is this related with the subject of the thread?

Mountain-Goat
26-09-2011, 03:45 AM
Do you question the relevance of your own posts?

Thinker108
26-09-2011, 03:50 AM
AC, you believe or not, your long posts, answering all sentences by quotes make me glad often. So I said this.
Once I wrote in a post to you that think with a peaceful mind and you asked me again and again why I said this? And now you are asking constantly. You don’t leave a topic easily so I said this that you are good debater

Mountain-Goat
26-09-2011, 04:10 AM
AC, you believe or not, your long posts, answering all sentences by quotes make me glad often. So I said this.
Once I wrote in a post to you that think with a peaceful mind and you asked me again and again why I said this? And now you are asking constantly. You don’t leave a topic easily so I said this that you are good debater
Thankyou for answering.

how you can say the sentence “you are a good debater” is not a praising?
Have I said "you are a good debater" is not a praising?
I have not. All I said was that I was not debating, it is you who has the praising thoughts, not me.
I had not expressed whether debating is good or bad, but simply I was not debating.
do you think debate is a bad thing
It depends on the context doesn't it.
If I was in a debate, then debating is good.
If you and I were standing on a beach and a huge tidal wave was approaching, debating at that time would be bad.

Regarding debating in the context of this thread, or any other thread here for that matter.
I do not debate because debating requires me to prove myself right and the other wrong.
I do not regard my observations as right or wrong, true or false.
Nor do I regard other's observations as right or wrong, true or false.
I may not agree, and I may dispute with another's view but that doesn't mean I am saying they are wrong.
I simply do not agree, according to my current knowledge and sight.

Within the context of discussions, here and offline, I never regard any discussion in the form of a debate.
So when you say, I am a good debater, you are inferring that I am debating, which I am not and I express that I am not.
If I was involved in debate, that is both parties agree that it is a debate, I would debate my brains out,
just for the sheer silliness of it.

But for serious explorative truth searching mutual sharing of experiences with others, I do not debate.

The miscommunication between us regarding debating is you percieve debating as good and thought so does everyone else.

Natalia
26-09-2011, 05:56 AM
What would God say?

Stop looking for a miracle and be the miracle

Sundialed
26-09-2011, 03:15 PM
God would say...

If I gave you everything you wanted and prayed for you would have more problems then beforehand.

You are bored? surely your mind is trapped.

Finnster
26-09-2011, 03:57 PM
God would say.....

"GET OFF MY LAWN!"

Not really..... just added for comedic effect.

Shining Star
26-09-2011, 04:31 PM
I like what God would say. Good stuff! :hug3:

I couldn't read the yellow, Smiler, what does it say?

I'll add, "Awaken." (or Wake up!) :smile:

Left click the mouse and drag it over the yellow writing... and then you will see all... :hug3:

Lisa
26-09-2011, 06:23 PM
Hi AC,


Lisa, if you are not aware, though I think you already are, i do like to explore things deeply.
If you find you do not want to as much as I do, then it's ok, simply go as far as you are comfortable with.
With that said, I am enjoying our time together while at peace knowing it will have to end sometime.


Thank you so much for this. I’m still feeling weak, and vulnerable because of it. Like the idea of plugging away at thought just makes me teary-eyed. It’s so exhausting to me. But even when I feel good, I can debate for a while, but not much. I feel more than I do thinking. For years I was a thinker. Had I met you then- what a wonderful communication we would have had. But the enquiring part of me is really no more. When I read that Rumi poem, say, I am melting, it says it all, I am filled with feeling, I have no words to say “Beloved drowns in its own Being”- they are said and felt and what more is there at this point for me?

I don’t want to argue and fuss and fight and prove right or wrong. And besides you’d win!
My treasure is that toad in my hand, my treasure is nature, my treasure is felt, my treasure is dying- like the autumn leaves are dying. It’s so full and so empty for me that words- and God only knows how I’m writing this much, are almost alien.

My interest in you is your heart- I hear that beating. That life is what I hear. And compassion and absolute understanding of your brilliance in enquiry.

I am not a truth seeker any more. I don’t care about truth or seeking.

But I love the crunching of acorns under my boots, a healthy crop!

I love like I could burst into flames at any moment- but there is always a sprinkle of rain to keep me.

Love is my Master, and she’s not kind- to wear transparency, and every biting ant knows my name.

But dear AC, if you can bear my silence, I will make us tea, and I will listen to your music,
and dance.

Tysklar
27-09-2011, 03:50 PM
My Name <<<<<<
Each letter in unison... plus Om.
The symatic sound of Creation!
Said so LOUD The voice of GOD is Light!

Miss Hepburn
27-09-2011, 04:30 PM
God would say.....

"GET OFF MY LAWN!"

Not really..... just added for comedic effect.

But, you are the lawn.
:D

Miss Hepburn
27-09-2011, 04:39 PM
I feel more than I do thinking. For years I was a thinker. Had I met you then- what a wonderful communication we would have had. But the enquiring part of me is really no more. When I read that Rumi poem, say, I am melting, it says it all, I am filled with feeling, I have no words to say “Beloved drowns in its own Being”- they are said and felt and what more is there at this point for me?

I don’t want to argue and fuss and fight and prove right or wrong. And besides you’d win!
My treasure is that toad in my hand, my treasure is nature, my treasure is felt, my treasure is dying - like the autumn leaves are dying. It’s so full and so empty for me that words - and God only knows how I’m writing this much, are almost alien.

My interest in you is your heart- I hear that beating. That life is what I hear. And compassion and absolute understanding of your brilliance in enquiry.
I am not a truth seeker any more. I don’t care about truth or seeking.
But I love the crunching of acorns under my boots, a healthy crop!
I love like I could burst into flames at any moment - but there is always a sprinkle of rain to keep me.
Love is my Master, and she’s not kind - to wear transparency, and every biting ant knows my name.
But dear, if you can bear my silence, I will make us tea, and I will listen to your music,

and dance.



Where is the :mouthdropped: emoticon?

Beautiful, Lisa - I wish you lived next door and could be
my inspirational sister. You are a poetess.
:hug2:
Ah, but, of course, I see you are a Pisces, LOL!



And I was planning on posting this link here - if it's been
seen before it's worth it again!

http://www.theinterviewwithgod.com/popup-frame.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theinterviewwithgo d.com%2Fpopup-frame.html)

Miss Hepburn
27-09-2011, 04:53 PM
My Name <<<<<<
Each letter in unison... plus Om.
The symatic sound of Creation!
Said so LOUD The voice of GOD is Light!
Oh, Tysklar, you're profile interest made me belly laugh, thank you for that.
I see my previous post to you will not be lost on you now, ha!
:smile: Miss Hepburn

BlueSky
27-09-2011, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by Lisa


I feel more than I do thinking. For years I was a thinker. Had I met you then- what a wonderful communication we would have had. But the enquiring part of me is really no more. When I read that Rumi poem, say, I am melting, it says it all, I am filled with feeling, I have no words to say “Beloved drowns in its own Being”- they are said and felt and what more is there at this point for me?


I don’t want to argue and fuss and fight and prove right or wrong. And besides you’d win!
My treasure is that toad in my hand, my treasure is nature, my treasure is felt, my treasure is dying - like the autumn leaves are dying. It’s so full and so empty for me that words - and God only knows how I’m writing this much, are almost alien.

My interest in you is your heart- I hear that beating. That life is what I hear. And compassion and absolute understanding of your brilliance in enquiry.
I am not a truth seeker any more. I don’t care about truth or seeking.
But I love the crunching of acorns under my boots, a healthy crop!
I love like I could burst into flames at any moment - but there is always a sprinkle of rain to keep me.
Love is my Master, and she’s not kind - to wear transparency, and every biting ant knows my name.
But dear, if you can bear my silence, I will make us tea, and I will listen to your music,

and dance.


I agree whole-heartedly Miss Hepburn. This is beautiful Lisa and not just because of the way it is worded................it is because you make us feel how you feel, how we all can feel........ with it.
It is truly inspirational..........and not just cuz I'm a Pisces too..........lol

Blessings and Love and thanks Lisa!
James

Miss Hepburn
27-09-2011, 05:23 PM
Oh, James, you're a Pisces?
I'm so sorry.
:tongue:

:D