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nightowl
19-05-2011, 03:52 AM
...what do you feel about the concept of competition? How do you think it affects our spiritual being? I have seen the good and bad fallout of competition, even in spiritual matters. Just wondering what you all think...:smile:

nightowl

I AM
19-05-2011, 04:06 AM
I guess it all depends on what you mean by competition.

The need to appear right in the eyes of another?
The need to defend your position?
To be the first one to the finish line?
Maby just an inspiring way to focus your intent.

nightowl
19-05-2011, 04:37 AM
I guess it all depends on what you mean by competition.

The need to appear right in the eyes of another?
The need to defend your position?
To be the first one to the finish line?
Maby just an inspiring way to focus your intent.

I AM,

I guess I didn't think that there were so many forms in which competition could be expressed...:rolleyes: thinking... hmmmm...:smile: let's see;

The first three seem to me to kind of express the same underlying theme, when I read those 3, it make me think of proving ones self worth...

The last one, focusing ones intent, I see more as an expression of living ones life with passion...

Silver
19-05-2011, 04:44 AM
Competition seems like a normal part of our being. All creatures compete.
Sometimes its for keeps. Sometimes its another type of play. It's unavoidable.

nightowl
19-05-2011, 04:48 AM
[QUOTE=Silvergirl]Competition seems like a normal part of our being. All creatures compete.
Sometimes its for keeps. Sometimes its another type of play. It's unavoidable.[/QUOT

Your right Silvergirl, it does seem to be an integral part of life and I think it has a huge impact on our spiritual development and beliefs.

I AM
19-05-2011, 04:56 AM
To me competition is an attempt to defeat the one you are competnig against. Be it in an argument, a fist fight or a staring contest. The idea being to come out in a supiriour position.

I see nothing wrong with this as long as you can happly loose and humbly win.:smile: But the need to win for me personaly would be a problem.

Miss Hepburn
19-05-2011, 05:13 AM
Competition? Gee - what a manifestation of ego - icky.

Ego being a manifestation of separation - separation being a manifestation of 'untruth'.

Miss Hepburn
19-05-2011, 05:20 AM
I guess it all depends on what you mean by competition.

The need to appear right in the eyes of another?
The need to defend your position?
To be the first one to the finish line?
Maybe just an inspiring way to focus your intent.
Gee, I'm very seldom 'right' in another's eyes. Oh well.
Defend my position, huh? Who cares what others think. To each his own.
Finish line? I don't get there til everyone else does!
One slacker and I'm not there yet.

Just sayin' how my mind thinks...

Xan
19-05-2011, 05:30 AM
hmmm... "competition is normal" ... hmmm

Well, just because something is common doesn't mean it's really natural. For instance, there's a lot of misery, suffering and conflict in the world - including attitudes and actions of competition, dominance, war... all trying to 'prove' one's relative worth and value.

But in my view our typical human condition is far from our inherent true nature. Our true value can't be measured or compared and is known only in unconditional love and genuine appreciation.

This knowing comes along naturally as we let go of our conditioned notions of what 'normal' is, and who we think we are, so our inherent absolute worth is revealed.


Xan

nightowl
19-05-2011, 06:07 AM
To me competition is an attempt to defeat the one you are competnig against. Be it in an argument, a fist fight or a staring contest. The idea being to come out in a supiriour position.

I see nothing wrong with this as long as you can happly loose and humbly win.:smile: But the need to win for me personaly would be a problem.



It seems to me that winning and losing evoke certain feelings that can become tied to ones spirit. I think of the emotions that accompany each...the whole winner/loser thing can take on a life of its own, particularly if one is a continual winner or loser. How much of all this is attached to a persons self worth...

nightowl
19-05-2011, 06:16 AM
hmmm... "competition is normal" ... hmmm

Well, just because something is common doesn't mean it's really natural. For instance, there's a lot of misery, suffering and conflict in the world - including attitudes and actions of competition, dominance, war... all trying to 'prove' one's relative worth and value.

But in my view our typical human condition is far from our inherent true nature. Our true value can't be measured or compared and is known only in unconditional love and genuine appreciation.

This knowing comes along naturally as we let go of our conditioned notions of what 'normal' is, and who we think we are, so our inherent absolute worth is revealed.


Xan

Yes, it is very evident that competition is deeply embedded in society. How much of the true nature of humans is based in the need for one to survive whether it be physically or socially, and it takes on the form of competition?

It is my hope that many can work past it but everyday I see many who struggle with self worth which is driven by societies ideas of norms and winner vs loser scenarios. This must have an impact on the spirit...

Silver
19-05-2011, 06:40 AM
It's normal among all mammals. Survival instinct = competition.

But my own personal experience with competition is, that whenever I won any sort of competition (semi-rare), it was a joyous experience and those around me were happy for me and basked in the glow of my accomplishment, and not just mom n dad. Whenever I won something, I felt and observed that I won because I found within the competition and in the process of competing, I found I was in a playful mode. It wasn't dog eat dog or I must win.

Then there's the animal world, the animal part of human beings, competing for jobs, mates, predator/prey etc. That's what I mean by normal. Experiencing that is a mixed bag for some of us thinky-feely humans, lol.

Deusdrum
19-05-2011, 08:58 AM
I think it can be healthy, like two genius scientist minds seeing who can discover greater and greater scientific progressions/insights, but on a friendly, inspire each other kind of way. As colleagues or whathaveyou.

I also feel like in sports, team sports especially, there are qualities that it can help develop, such as teamwork (obviously) but also learning to work with other people towards a common goal, hard work, physical developement, sportmanship, how to win graciously and also how to accept defeat; defeat being something that will happen throughout life to some degree to everyone.

I do agree that it can be bad from an ego standpoint, and people that are all about personal glory rather than enjoying the experience, then it can go wrong, when dominance over another is the aim.

Personally, i play sports because they are fun. Yes, to win as well, that is also fun, but not a big deal either way really. I know some guys will be better than me, and some i am better than at whatever given sport, but the challenge is to be the best of my ability. Better players inspire me to elevate my game. Leadership is another quality developed by competition.

I think it comes from our animal side nature. The fight for survival, etc. In some cases, it can be healthy to get onto the highschool basketball team, for example. I think it helps a lot of kids at that age. It keeps them from getting to heavily into the drinking, drugs, partying scene going on around that time in life, and i don't see anything wrong with wanting to achieve greatness in any field competitively, perhaps it is even a way to channel our animal and ego side in a healthy way. Competition is basically to me about excelling and challenging oneself, more than it is about beating another person.

If you are competing to own the earth, and you destroy a ton of it in the process, then yeah, unhealthy.

I don't know. Just some thoughts.

athribiristan
19-05-2011, 01:09 PM
I only compete with myself.

Perfect Storm
19-05-2011, 01:15 PM
I do not have a competitive bone in my body.

I much prefer it when people work together to achieve something greater rather then compete for something lesser.

THough obviously this is in todays world not a case of survival instincts or such.

seeker2011
19-05-2011, 06:06 PM
I agree with Xan,
I also would add that competition, as in the animal part of human nature, causes 90% of the suffering in the world. And it's only benefit is to make those who participate in it, better at it.

I think competition is avoidable, but in most cases it requires strong defense mechanisms. As in, if you're rich you dont have to compete for money.

I want to start a thread about "why" we are on the Earth in the first place.
I think I'll try to write it out first and then post it later.

Lisa
19-05-2011, 06:27 PM
Life itself happens through competiton. Millions of sperm compete and only one winner. The face of life on the planet has its roots in competition. The trees and plants in the forest compete for sunlight. Competition is primal and largely about survival and propogation of the species. It is a great part of evolution. And if not judged, there is much beauty in it. :smile:

Miss Hepburn
19-05-2011, 06:59 PM
Life itself happens through competiton. Millions of sperm compete and only one winner. The face of life on the planet has its roots in competition. The trees and plants in the forest compete for sunlight. Competition is primal and largely about survival and propogation of the species. It is a great part of evolution. And if not judged, there is much beauty in it. :smile:
Excellent and astute - I would have given an A on this.
Then I would have steered you to the original intention of the first post - just to
fine tune.

I think you are correct in a sense.
However, I submit the question - do the sperm actually have the intention of competiton.
Does the tree actually have the intention of competition reaching for more sunlight?

I would say, no.

The sperm and the tree are actually singular in their intention or mission.
I would say they have no competition in their DNA even.
They are simply programmed to succeed. And their is simply the survival of the fittest.
And when they do not succeed they fall to the way side...this having nothing to do with the other ---they simply did not
reach their goal ---whether they had a tree or sperm next to them - they simply did not reach the goal.

I do think the nature of competition is awareness of beating another;
thus, separation, "us and them", a "me and a you".

Trees , sperm work for a goal of succeeding without conscious detriment to another - in fact, as they succeed the whole forest and the whole of man flourishes because of the one reaching the goal.

So competition in this sense is not the right word, imo

:smile:

Miss Hepburn
19-05-2011, 07:02 PM
I want to start a thread about "why" we are on the Earth in the first place.

If you search around a bit -you'll find threads on that subject already.
It would be neat to "bring them up" again.
:smile:

Silver
19-05-2011, 07:06 PM
Is Lisa's explanation of how the trees and the sperm compete a succinct way of putting it or is Mrs. Hepburn's explanation just a roundabout way of saying they're competing? Does a tree falling in the woods make sound if nobody is there to hear? Do trees and sperm have self awareness? Is that what it takes to define what competes and what only appears to compete?

lemex
19-05-2011, 07:33 PM
...what do you feel about the concept of competition? How do you think it affects our spiritual being? I have seen the good and bad fallout of competition, even in spiritual matters. Just wondering what you all think...:smile:

nightowl

Keep in mind the spiritual being isn't affected but a reflection of the inner self. What we are trying is to become that being you speak of. Everything is in spiritual matters.

Xan
19-05-2011, 07:48 PM
Yes, it is very evident that competition is deeply embedded in society. How much of the true nature of humans is based in the need for one to survive whether it be physically or socially, and it takes on the form of competition?

It is my hope that many can work past it but everyday I see many who struggle with self worth which is driven by societies ideas of norms and winner vs loser scenarios. This must have an impact on the spirit...
nightowl... Spirit receives no 'impact' from our body-mind involvement with issues of survival and self-evaluation. It is our essence of being and remains as it always was, as pure expression of source.

As I mentioned, just because struggle is common doesn't mean it is true and natural. We are world where human nature has become distorted from losing awareness of our true nature.

Our hope lies in spiritual awakening as unprecedented numbers of people are re-discovering the wholeness and pure love of our essential being. In this awareness issues of emotional and egoic self-defense gradually fall away, and even physical survival becomes not a struggle but simply the expression of life force.


Xan

Xan
19-05-2011, 07:55 PM
However, I submit the question - do the sperm actually have the intention of *competiton*.
Does the tree actually have the intention of competition reaching for more sunlight?

The sperm and the tree are actually singular in their intention or mission.
I would say they have no competition in their DNA even.
They are simply programmed to succeed. And their is simply the survival of the fittest.
And when they do not succeed they fall to the way side...this having nothing to do with the other ---they simply did not
reach their goal ---whether they had a tree or sperm next to them - they simply did not reach the goal.

I do think the nature of competition is awareness of beating another;
thus, separation, "us and them", a "me and a you".

Trees , sperm work for a goal of succeeding without conscious detriment to another - in fact, as they succeed the whole forest and the whole of man flourishes because of the one reaching the goal.
Well said, Miss H.


Xan

Chrysaetos
19-05-2011, 07:56 PM
hmmm... "competition is normal" ... hmmm
Well, just because something is common doesn't mean it's really natural. For instance, there's a lot of misery, suffering and conflict in the world - including attitudes and actions of competition, dominance, war... all trying to 'prove' one's relative worth and value. All of that.. war, misery, suffering, and conflict are natural, Xan. Without competition things cannot exist in this world. There's the saying one's death is another one's bread.
Sure, it's not always in the benefit to us or others, nor is it always morally acceptable. But it is natural. :angel4:

If competition is unnatural, or untruth as I'm reading in this thread.. this means nature itself is 'unnatural'. :D

This itself creates a separation, it creates an idea of imperfection and perfection..

Xan
19-05-2011, 08:04 PM
All of that.. war, misery, suffering, and conflict are natural, Xan. Without competition things cannot exist in this world. There's the saying one's death is another one's bread.
Sure, it's not always in the benefit to us or others, nor is it always morally acceptable. But it is natural. :angel4:

If competition is unnatural, or untruth as I'm reading in this thread.. this means nature itself is 'unnatural'. :D

This itself creates a separation, it creates an idea of imperfection and perfection..
Chrysaetos... You are speaking from the result - war, misery, conflict, etc. - and assuming the cause is our natural state.

But we are not in our natural condition as long as there is a veil in our minds covering awareness of our essence, our beingness.

There is also a saying, "In a country where everyone has cancer it's considered the normal way of being."

The sense of separation does not come from ideas and differences but from lacking awareness of ourselves as beings of pure consciousness and love, entirely connected and interactive with everyone and everything.


Xan

Chrysaetos
19-05-2011, 08:22 PM
Chrysaetos... You are speaking from the result - war, misery, conflict, etc. - and assuming the cause is our natural state.You said they were not natural. If they are not, why do they exist?There is also a saying, "In a country where everyone has cancer it's considered the normal way of being." Yes it is. Of course that's not the most healthy way of living, but who's saying it is 'unnatural'?

Your current awareness is natural, just as it's natural if you were drunk, Xan.:tongue: Everything that exists is natural. Of course we form morals, judgements, opinions, and 'spiritual ladders' around it.. but the fact that it exists means it is natural.The sense of separation does not come from ideas and differences but from lacking awareness of ourselves as beings of pure consciousness and love, entirely connected and interactive with everyone and everything.XanThe idea of perfection-imperfection, natural-unnatural creates separations, and teleology in the human mind.

gentledove
19-05-2011, 08:35 PM
There is also a saying, "In a country where everyone has cancer it's considered the normal way of being."

The sense of separation does not come from ideas and differences but from lacking awareness of ourselves as beings of pure consciousness and love, entirely connected and interactive with everyone and everything.


Well said Xan. I think the biggest misconception foisted on people is that we must live in a zero/sum sort of way, meaning the "winner" takes all while the "loser" gets the shaft. Who is a winner is an arbitrary designation. For instance in our society a person who is really good at getting a basketball in a hoop, or at knocking someone out in a ring is deemed a winner...etc. I think that the only winner in this mentality is the ego and that is really zero/zero, or perhaps even some negative/negative sum in my estimation. We don't have to live like that at all. We can create the kind of world we want to live in. We can envision a scenario which is win/win. We can learn to identify with who we truly are and stop identifying with our jobs, our money, our possessions, our talents and basing worth of ourselves or others on those. If something can be taken from you and cause you to be worth less, then that's not you and not worth identifying as yourself. :wink: Our worth isn't determined by arbitrary values held by society unless we allow that.

If we can imagine a world in which everyone's talents are encouraged and utilized, and everyone has inherent worth simply because they're unique aspects of God, not because they're "winners" or "losers" then we can make it happen. If we can make it happen, then it's natural.

Xan
19-05-2011, 08:37 PM
Well then, Chrysaetos, we have to get into defining what "natural" means.

If your definition is... whatever happens is natural, then we have no meeting point.

Mine is... what is natural arises from the essence of life and love itself, undistorted by the human mind that doesn't know it's own true nature.


Xan

Xan
19-05-2011, 08:46 PM
We can learn to identify with who we truly are and stop identifying with our jobs, our money, our possessions, our talents and basing worth of ourselves or others on those.

Our worth isn't determined by arbitrary values held by society unless we allow that.
Yes... It's a matter of mistaken identity. :wink:

When we merely follow the momentum of our conditioning - that we are this body, personal characteristics, set of beliefs and life story - there's no solid foundation for our sense of self, since all these elements of 'me' are subject to change. This unconscious insecurity leads us to continually try to prove ourselves. This is my definition of 'ego'.

When we discover who we really are we find our true being is unchanging and whole and needs no defense or proof of value through competition or any other way. We simply are this.

The thread title is "Your thoughts on competition and spiritual wellbeing..." Spiritual well being is awareness of ourselves as spirit, and is dependent on letting go of our involvement with the surface/false self-identity and turning our attention within.


Xan

gentledove
19-05-2011, 08:46 PM
Life itself happens through competiton. Millions of sperm compete and only one winner.

Then, I suppose by that definition, we're all winners already.:tongue:

Chrysaetos
19-05-2011, 08:47 PM
If we can imagine a world in which everyone's talents are encouraged and utilized, and everyone has inherent worth simply because they're unique aspects of God, not because they're "winners" or "losers" then we can make it happen. If we can make it happen, then it's natural.And some people's talents are exactly basketball, or entertainment, or painting etc.
There will always be those who excel a little bit more about specific things than others. If you lived in a tribe in the forest, some would be better at hunting, others at gathering, some will be leaders, others not. Some creatures are hunted and lose, others win.Well then, Chrysaetos, we have to get into defining what "natural" means.
If your definition is... whatever happens is natural then we have no meeting point.
Mine is... what is natural arises from the essence of life and love itself, undistorted by the human mind that doesn't know it's own true nature.
XanEverything that exists is natural. How can it not be? To claim otherwise would be to say that the universe has an inherent order/morality.

There is no nature and true nature.. all is nature. The separations we create between nature and true nature, perfect and imperfect are perspectives.

Silver
19-05-2011, 08:47 PM
Then, I suppose by that definition, we're all winners already.:tongue:


Yeah, gentledove~*:D
:hug:

gentledove
19-05-2011, 08:49 PM
Yes... It's a matter of mistaken identity. :wink: When we believe our conditioning, that we are this body and set of beliefs and life story, there's no solid foundation for our sense of self, since all these elements of 'me' change from time to time. This unconscious insecurity leads us to try to prove ourselves. This is my definition of 'ego'.

When we discover who we really are we find our true being is unchanging and whole and needs no defense or proof of value through competition. We simply are this.

The thread title is "Your thoughts on competition and spirit wellbeing..." and this well being is dependent on letting go of our involvement with the surface/false self-identity and turning our attention within.


Xan

:color: :hello2: :hug3:

gentledove
19-05-2011, 08:56 PM
And some people's talents are exactly basketball, or entertainment, or painting etc.
There will always be those who excel a little bit more about specific things than others. If you lived in a tribe in the forest, some would be better at hunting, others at gathering, some will be leaders, others not. Some creatures are hunted and lose, others win.

Well, in this case the predators would clearly be the "winners" and the herbivores would clearly be the "losers". This is a really simplistic way of thinking, imo. By this definition a cannibal would be a winner every time he killed and ate someone. We aren't animals, btw. In general we're much more conscious and aware than animals (No I'm not putting animals down). We can choose to view the world in a way that is empowering for everyone. We can choose...most animals cannot.

Xan
19-05-2011, 09:00 PM
Chrysaetos: And some people's talents are exactly basketball, or entertainment, or painting etc.
There will always be those who excel a little bit more about specific things than others. If you lived in a tribe in the forest, some would be better at hunting, others at gathering, some will be leaders, others not. Some creatures are hunted and lose, others win.

Chrysaetos... Did you read Miss Hepburn's description above, about the difference between the life urge to survive and succeed, and the ego urge to compare oneself as superior to others?


Everything that exists is natural. How can it not be?

Through distorted perceptions. The mentally ill are famous for believing to be real what is not. I say our false belief that we are only physical, mental and emotional beings is a type of mental illness. :tongue:


To claim otherwise would be to say that the universe has an inherent order/morality.

Inherent order is obvious in the universe, otherwise there would be only chaos. Inherent morality is another matter altogether.


There is no nature and true nature.. all is nature. The separations we create between nature and true nature, perfect and imperfect are perspectives.

Exactly... perspectives that are flawed by lacking some crucial information and awareness --- who we are beyond the surface identity most people falsely believe is all there is to 'me'.


Xan

Chrysaetos
19-05-2011, 09:04 PM
Well, in this case the predators would clearly be the "winners" and the herbivores would clearly be the "losers".
This is a really simplistic way of thinking, imo. By this definition a cannibal would be a winner every time he killed and ate someone. We aren't animals, btw. In general we're much more conscious and aware than animals (No I'm not putting animals down). We can choose to view the world in a way that is empowering for everyone. We can choose...most animals cannot. They do when it comes to living and surviving here. Same goes for cannibals. In a direct fight to the death, there is one winner or none.

We are mammals which means we are animals. Self-awareness is just one aspect of existence. Who's saying awareness, intelligence, or morality are superior forces in the universe. Why choose that? Why not photosynthesis or atomic reactions?Through distorted perceptions. The mentally ill are famous for believing to be real what is not. I say our false belief that we are only physical, mental and emotional beings is a type of mental illness. :tongue:
That is not my point. It's about your 'philosophy' to create a separation between natural and unnatural, nature and true nature. I'm not talking about people's beliefs or that dichotomy spirit VS body. I am saying that all that exists is natural.. including disease and illness. Of course we prefer good health. But if you say disease is unnatural you are basically saying those micro-organism are unnatural.

BlueSky
19-05-2011, 09:10 PM
...what do you feel about the concept of competition? How do you think it affects our spiritual being? I have seen the good and bad fallout of competition, even in spiritual matters. Just wondering what you all think...:smile:

nightowl

I played baseball as a kid and the joy of competition became apparent when I became an adult and watched in horror as my daughters softball coach wouldn't tell the kids the score during the game!
Why play if not to win. It is alot of fun to play sports with the intention of winning.
I saw just how much so as the thrill was denied to these little girls.
Of course you can take it too far, just like anything else.........

Xan
19-05-2011, 09:17 PM
Chrysaetos: That is not my point. It's about your 'philosophy' to create a separation between natural and unnatural, nature and true nature.

Well, my friend. We don't have a 'philosophy' about the sun giving light, we just observe it. Discovering there is a pure, unconflicted, true nature within us and everything is such a direct observation.


I'm not talking about people's beliefs or that dichotomy spirit VS body. I am saying that all that exists is natural.. including disease and illness. Of course we prefer good health. But if you say disease is unnatural you are basically saying those micro-organism are unnatural.

I'm saying our distorted perceptions of the nature of life are unnatural because there is substantive knowledge missing in most people's minds.


Xan

Chrysaetos
19-05-2011, 09:17 PM
I played baseball as a kid and the joy of competition became apparent when I became an adult and watched in horror as my daughters softball coach wouldn't tell the kids the score during the game!
Why play if not to win. It is alot of fun to play sports with the intention of winning.
I saw just how much so as the thrill was denied to these little girls.
Of course you can take it too far, just like anything else.........Exactly!

Children do it anyway.. when they go to school they compete. About games, sport, exam marks etc. It is natural. If you take it away.. they will eventually find another way.
Of course it's also good to make sure it's in everyone's interest, but we can't fully control that.. and should not desire too I believe. :hug3:

Xan, no need for analogies. It only makes it off and unnecessarily complicated. ALL things are natural, whether or not we morally and personally like it. That includes competition.

Xan
19-05-2011, 09:21 PM
Xan, no need for analogies.


Funny guy... :D


Xan

gentledove
19-05-2011, 09:41 PM
We are mammals which means we are animals. Self-awareness is just one aspect of existence. Who's saying awareness, intelligence, or morality are superior forces in the universe. Why choose that? Why not photosynthesis or atomic reactions?

Because we aren't plants and bombs?:tongue: We're more than animals. Animals don't judge and they can't choose how to view the world. We do judge and we can and do choose how to view the world. We can choose not to judge and not to label.

Awareness is a superior force. When we're aware we can clearly see that separations between us are artificial. We can see that attacking another and destroying them for some perceived gain harms us as well. We can clearly see that stealing, lying and murdering lead to detrimental consequences. Competition and the effort to achieve the supposed benefits of being a winner have led to all of the above.

As I said before, winner and loser are arbitrary designations. You can say a cannibal is a winner, but I doubt in the eyes of many people this would be the case. It's common sense that a cannibal will be retaliated against as they're acting in a maladaptive fashion.

Games, when not taken seriously are harmless. It's when self-worth is invested in them that they become detrimental, imo. Again it's an attitude that we can choose to have/hold and teach to our children as well.

Xan
19-05-2011, 09:45 PM
Games, when not taken seriously are harmless. It's when self-worth is invested in them that they become detrimental, imo. Again it's an attitude that we can choose to have/hold and teach to our children as well.

Well said, gentledove.


Xan

Chrysaetos
19-05-2011, 09:53 PM
As I said before, winner and loser are arbitrary designations. You can say a cannibal is a winner, but I doubt in the eyes of many people this would be the case. It's common sense that a cannibal will be retaliated against as they're acting in a maladaptive fashion. Awareness is beneficial. But in the end, the micro-organisms will outlast the human race.
The cannibal is the winner when it comes to the fight and survival. I am not saying I find cannibalism morally acceptable. :smile:Games, when not taken seriously are harmless. It's when self-worth is invested in them that they become detrimental, imo. Again it's an attitude that we can choose to have/hold and teach to our children as well.I think that's a very traditional-feminist opinion. ''Winning doesn't matter.. just have fun'' :rolleyes:

gentledove
19-05-2011, 10:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gentledove
Games, when not taken seriously are harmless. It's when self-worth is invested in them that they become detrimental, imo. Again it's an attitude that we can choose to have/hold and teach to our children as well.
I think that's a very traditional-feminist opinion. ''Winning doesn't matter.. just have fun'' :rolleyes:

Can I help if if traditional-feminists are always right and consequently the winners?:tongue:

Silver
19-05-2011, 10:44 PM
Haha, seems like quite a bit of competition going on in this (and every other) thread, lol.

aser's homie
19-05-2011, 11:04 PM
Shake hand and compete.
Shake hand and compete again.

The mind and heart of council, the soul of fresh hope. Shaped up nicely, just what I think thou.

Miss Hepburn
20-05-2011, 12:14 AM
Mine is... what is natural arises from the essence of life and love itself, undistorted by the human mind that doesn't know it's own true nature.
Xan
Ahh, the human mind that does not know it's own true nature...

Excellent!
:wink:

nightowl
20-05-2011, 02:12 AM
Wow, I have to say I had no idea there would be so many views and responses to this question. Thank you everyone for your post. You have provided much food for thought for me on this topic...

nightowl

Deusdrum
20-05-2011, 08:24 AM
there certainly are a lot of competing opinions in this thread... i'm not sure what to think... fight for my support! Hmm, pro competition has some good points, on the other hand, so does anti- compete.

It's a close contest, but there can be only one who holds the title of competition answerer!

What say you? Rebuttal and then closing statements!

I think that two teams or people or whoever engaged in competition can be as one in a sense. Without two teams, there is no game. Look at the ancient greeks. They competed in their plays, in athletic prowess, etc. etc. Even philosophy. It is fun, challenging to all to be there best. I believe, as i have said above, that others can help get us to rise to the occasion and we can challenge ourselves in the best scenario, to be better people.

The goal is to 'win' or succeed, but to find the will to increase one's effort in any aspect of life is a beautiful thing, in fact, anything less than constantly this, is bound to fall into complacency.

Even in Spiritual "matters". Others make us better. We make others better. It is both complimentary, the whole is better than the sum of its parts, and competition all at once. It improves self discipline. At work, do you challenge yourself to do a better job? That is competition. And the fruits of your labour will benefit both those dependent upon your work and yourself.

Getting up out of bed in the morning you are competing against gravity! You cannot exscape it! Hahahahaha!! :happy3:

Miss Hepburn
20-05-2011, 11:54 AM
there certainly are a lot of competing opinions in this thread...

Getting up out of bed in the morning you are competing against gravity! You cannot escape it! Hahahahaha!! :happy3:

Our definitions are different then.
I would say you might mean opposition-we are in opposition to gravity.

I don't think any of us are in competition here - most of us probably don't care
if anyone reads our post or agrees with us, even.

The nature of competition as I see it bec of the intention of first post would be
competing with another to be above another - or to succeed or win meaning someone would be the loser or less than ourselves.
That's what I surmised anyway.
Take care.

mattie
20-05-2011, 01:04 PM
Like many things, competition can be positive or not.

It is the perspective & intent of those engaged in it that governs this. One can compete w/ others as a fun & positive learning experience, exercising their skills, however if competition is undertaken to make one’s self feel good by defeating the opponent it might not be as positive. Being overly attached to the outcome can be another factor as to whether competition is productive or not.

We can use a form of personal competition that can be very useful w/ the setting of personal goals when we strive to surpass a previous level that we’ve accomplished. As long as this is done w/o berating self for not meeting a desired goal this can be very productive.

gentledove
20-05-2011, 03:16 PM
I don't think any of us are in competition here - most of us probably don't care
if anyone reads our post or agrees with us, even.

The nature of competition as I see it bec of the intention of first post would be
competing with another to be above another - or to succeed or win meaning someone would be the loser or less than ourselves.
That's what I surmised anyway.
Take care.

Very well said!

and when I wrote this Can I help if if traditional-feminists are always right and consequently the winners? :tongue:

I was making a joke about labels, and about competition in general.:wink:

I believe many people in the world are awakening to the adaptive idea that win/win is perhaps almost always superior to win/lose. If we want to learn to excel at something, then fine, that's some of the fun of being here. It's when we base our self-esteem upon being a winner or loser that damage is done...and all over an illusion. Winning at something doesn't make you (who you are at your core) "better", losing doesn't make you "worser".

Likewise identifying with the winning team doesn't make you "better", or with the losing team "worser".

gentledove
20-05-2011, 03:20 PM
We can use a form of personal competition that can be very useful w/ the setting of personal goals when we strive to surpass a previous level that we’ve accomplished. As long as this is done w/o berating self for not meeting a desired goal this can be very productive.

Yes, I agree.

Lisa
20-05-2011, 04:11 PM
Excellent and astute - I would have given an A on this.
Then I would have steered you to the original intention of the first post - just to
fine tune.

I think you are correct in a sense.
However, I submit the question - do the sperm actually have the intention of competiton.
Does the tree actually have the intention of competition reaching for more sunlight?

I would say, no.

The sperm and the tree are actually singular in their intention or mission.
I would say they have no competition in their DNA even.
They are simply programmed to succeed. And their is simply the survival of the fittest.
And when they do not succeed they fall to the way side...this having nothing to do with the other ---they simply did not
reach their goal ---whether they had a tree or sperm next to them - they simply did not reach the goal.

I do think the nature of competition is awareness of beating another;
thus, separation, "us and them", a "me and a you".

Trees , sperm work for a goal of succeeding without conscious detriment to another - in fact, as they succeed the whole forest and the whole of man flourishes because of the one reaching the goal.

So competition in this sense is not the right word, imo

:smile:

Excellent points Miss Hepburn, and I agree.

I can see truth in both posts, even though they appear to be opposite.

When two rams or bucks or stallions are fighting each other for breeding rights,
their goal is for mating with the herd. But when the males are sizing each other up- each are naturally their competitors. When they fight, they are competing.
They don't have the conceptual idea of competition, as humans do. But the humans actually are doing the same thing, only with a greater mind. And it is a mind that allows for conceptualization.


I do think the nature of competition is awareness of beating another;
thus, separation, "us and them", a "me and a you".


Male animals fighting for females are aware of trying to win, trying to beat each other. But it is not aware like humans are aware. They aren't thinking, "Man, I'm gonna smash this dude to pieces. First I'll grab his horn, then I'll throw him down."

There's is a simple, instinctual awareness- "Win."
And these males definitely see a "me and him". A "me Or him."

In nature I agree that there is no intent for competition for the sake of competition. But competition is happening nonetheless. It is a result or effect of survival. :smile:

Lisa
20-05-2011, 04:15 PM
Haha, seems like quite a bit of competition going on in this (and every other) thread, lol.

Indeedy. :wink:

gentledove
20-05-2011, 04:34 PM
Male animals fighting for females are aware of trying to win, trying to beat each other. But it is not aware like humans are aware. They aren't thinking, "Man, I'm gonna smash this dude to pieces. First I'll grab his horn, then I'll throw him down."

There's is a simple, instinctual awareness- "Win."
And these males definitely see a "me and him". A "me Or him."

In nature I agree that there is no intent for competition for the sake of competition. But competition is happening nonetheless. It is a result or effect of survival.

Is this the way you would like to see human males vie for human females? I suppose after goring their competitor possibly to death they can violently take the female/females as animals do?

War is competition, yet young men and women die, get maimed for life...etc. There is a huge cost in human misery to such competition and we need to weigh carefully the cost/benefit ratio, imo.

Killing others isn't necessary for human survival. We have more awareness than animals, we can choose. Competition isn't necessary for human survival, but cooperation is, imo.

If we give up/deny our ability to see things differently and create a world based on more enlightened values, then we give up/deny a major strength that sets human beings apart from animals.

Sure, we can function by animal instincts and values programmed into us by "authorities" and believe this is "normal" and so there's no other/better way. However, I'm just pointing out that it's not inevitable...it's a choice.

Lisa
20-05-2011, 05:13 PM
Is this the way you would like to see human males vie for human females? I suppose after goring their competitor possibly to death they can violently take the female/females as animals do?

War is competition, yet young men and women die, get maimed for life...etc. There is a huge cost in human misery to such competition and we need to weigh carefully the cost/benefit ratio, imo.

Killing others isn't necessary for human survival. We have more awareness than animals, we can choose. Competition isn't necessary for human survival, but cooperation is, imo.

If we give up/deny our ability to see things differently and create a world based on more enlightened values, then we give up/deny a major strength that sets human beings apart from animals.

Sure, we can function by animal instincts and values programmed into us by "authorities" and believe this is "normal" and so there's no other/better way. However, I'm just pointing out that it's not inevitable...it's a choice.


Kinda went off on a tangent there gentledove.

If it were a choice, then casting back into human history, why would we not have chosen to be competition free by now? And what is more, why aren't we competition free now?

Idealism is nice. But how does that fit into what is actually happening?

Chrysaetos
20-05-2011, 05:20 PM
Is this the way you would like to see human males vie for human females? I suppose after goring their competitor possibly to death they can violently take the female/females as animals do?
War is competition, yet young men and women die, get maimed for life...etc. There is a huge cost in human misery to such competition and we need to weigh carefully the cost/benefit ratio, imo.True.. but it's not always easy to judge a war.. sometimes, there are good reasons. I'm happy I live in the Europe I do now, and that it's not a Nazi regime.
Killing others isn't necessary for human survival. We have more awareness than animals, we can choose. Competition isn't necessary for human survival, but cooperation is, imo. If we give up/deny our ability to see things differently and create a world based on more enlightened values, then we give up/deny a major strength that sets human beings apart from animals. Do you eat? That means something had to be killed.
We are already setting ourselves apart from nature and animals through all the cultural and religious games over the centuries. Not that it's necessarily bad, as it's part of our nature and result of our brain anyway.

gentledove
20-05-2011, 05:23 PM
Kinda went off on a tangent there gentledove.

If it were a choice, then casting back into human history, why would we not have chosen to be competition free by now? And what is more, why aren't we competition free now?

Idealism is nice. But how does that fit into what is actually happening?

Did I go off on a tangent? Forgive me...

Well, there have always been some people who have chosen differently. During the Special Olympics in Spokane Washington in 1976 a young competitor fell in a footrace and several of the others stopped and went back to make sure he wasn't injured. They then helped him to finish the race.

All of human history hasn't been about competition, and cooperation is playing a much more central role as people become more and more cognizant of it's potential.

So what is actually happening Lisa?

Seems to me people are making choices.

gentledove
20-05-2011, 05:30 PM
True.. but it's not always easy to judge a war.. sometimes, there are good reasons. I'm happy I live in the Europe I do now, and that it's not a Nazi regime.

Self defense is the one good reason for fighting. There are still people in the world who imagine they can get what they want by taking it forcefully away from others. This isn't the best tactic as it leads to retaliation (as Nazi Germany found out).

Do you eat? That means something had to be killed.

I actually am a vegetarian, though I don't judge people who eat meat. I do believe in honoring the feelings of animals as much as possible.

Lisa
20-05-2011, 05:54 PM
Did I go off on a tangent? Forgive me...

Well, there have always been some people who have chosen differently. During the Special Olympics in Spokane Washington in 1976 a young competitor fell in a footrace and several of the others stopped and went back to make sure he wasn't injured. They then helped him to finish the race.

All of human history hasn't been about competition, and cooperation is playing a much more central role as people become more and more cognizant of it's potential.

So what is actually happening Lisa?

Seems to me people are making choices.

Wouldn't the foot race be a competition?

But I agree, within competiton there are those who choose to act out of love or kindness or compassion. But is this really a choice? Would they not have to have a greater heart to make such a 'choice'?

If I saw a dog that needed help- there would be no choice but to help it.

Another- maybe being bit by a dog as a child- has no choice either as they avoid the dog.

Which begs the question, how much choice do we really have?

Between genetics and up-bringing, how free our we to choose?

Those who helped the fallen runner could actually have a genetic marker for being more compassionate, or raised in an environment that stimuated compassion.

Compassion is beautiful. But survival itself has nothing to do with compassion.
Except perhaps as that which allows for the protection of the species.

We think we're smarter than survival. I think survival plays us.

If a group of us were to suddenly land on a deserted island. Catch that group in six months. Who is helping the fallen runner then?

Jut some thoughts. :smile:

BlueSky
20-05-2011, 05:59 PM
The circumstances you mentioned above Lisa may inhibit what is natural, (compassion) but IMO although circumstances may bring compassion out.....it is there underneath to bring out..... or inhibit.

unus supra
20-05-2011, 11:57 PM
i think, no, i know

the drive that will ultimately liberate

must come from within, no strings attached. a genuine internal yearning.
a wish for peace.

having said that, in terms of other things, a friendly competition amongst established friends may be useful at certain points. but keeping it pure is difficult. and whatever is built off of a shoddy foundation, one that is not earnest and genuine will fail.

and there is no way around that.

but its a slippery slope.

shucks keeping it real with our own heart can be tricky.

gentledove
21-05-2011, 05:35 PM
Hi Lisa! =)

Wouldn't the foot race be a competition?


Yes, it certainly began that way, but once a child fell, a few of the others decided they were more friends and colleagues than competitors. They decided it more important to help the child finish rather than win themselves...They changed the game to "win/win" and became front page news. They are slowly altering the prevailing paradigm of "win at all costs" to one more adaptive through their powerful example.

But I agree, within competiton there are those who choose to act out of love or kindness or compassion. But is this really a choice? Would they not have to have a greater heart to make such a 'choice'?

It could be argued that we have no choice and are trapped in a prison of genetics and environment, unavoidable cause and inexorable effect.

I have concluded that we are powerful spiritual beings and we do have independent spirits and the power to choose. Even in the most restrictive environment, most of us still have control over our thoughts and our attitudes. Of course we are limited by genetics and environment which curtail our awareness. We therefore have a limited free will. Nevertheless, we do have some freedom to choose. It seems to me, the greater the awareness, the greater the liberty/ability to set causes into motion which we strongly believe will have desirable effects.

If we have limited free will, why would we not choose to exercise it and magnify it? Why would we choose to react to circumstances in a negative way and rationalize it by saying we have no choice?

Well, if we have no free will, then our social justice system is unjust. It not someone's responsibility if they murder, rape or steal from someone.

This position could be argued, but most people, deep in their hearts know they have choice and must take some responsibility for their actions...it's common sense.

If a group of us were to suddenly land on a deserted island. Catch that group in six months. Who is helping the fallen runner then?

The same advanced spirit who would be doing so under less trying circumstances.

Victor Frankl states in his book "Man's Search For Meaning" that sometimes the most noble souls didn't make it out of the concentration camps. They gave their last crust of bread to prevent someone else from starving.

That having been said, cooperation is always the first/best choice, on or off a desert island. We are all parts of the same living organism called humanity. We all have varying gifts/talents which contribute to the whole. If a part of the organism turns on itself and destroys or wounds other parts, how is that adaptive?

I have worked in the medical field for years and I see it changing. Cooperation is the word of the day. It's good for everyone...it's beneficial for employees, it's beneficial for the hospital/clinic, it's most beneficial for patients.

I'm not saying that competing in a light-hearted way isn't fun...I'm saying that when it becomes so serious that self-esteem or survival itself becomes defined by it/dependent upon it, that win/lose scenario has been taken to a level that is unwholesome.

As far as idealism goes, what is it really? I believe Idealism is the ability to envision how circumstances can be improved for self and others. To imagine solutions to difficulties and implement those answers is one of man's greatest talents. Why would we want to relegate that gift into the "garbage" bin?

Silver
21-05-2011, 05:49 PM
Victor Frankl states in his book "Man's Search For Meaning" that sometimes the most noble souls didn't make it out of the concentration camps. They gave their last crust of bread to prevent someone else from starving.

That having been said, cooperation is always the first/best choice, on or off a desert island. We are all parts of the same living organism called humanity. We all have varying gifts/talents which contribute to the whole. If a part of the organism turns on itself and destroys or wounds other parts, how is that adaptive?




Just food for thought>>>who knows what those people were like before they landed in a concentration camp? Maybe hard times makes us 'soft' which I mean is a good thing of course. Just saying.

And not everyone who gets stranded on a desert island becomes Lord of the Flies.
At least, I don't think so.

I'm not saying that competing in a light-hearted way isn't fun...I'm saying that when it becomes so serious that self-esteem or survival itself becomes defined by it/dependent upon it, that win/lose scenario has been taken to a level that is unwholesome.

As far as idealism goes, what is it really? I believe Idealism is the ability to envision how circumstances can be improved for self and others. To imagine solutions to difficulties and implement those answers is one of man's greatest talents. Why would we want to relegate that gift into the "garbage" bin?

Very nicely put, gentledove.

Lisa
21-05-2011, 06:22 PM
Good post, Gentledove. Very good points.

And I know that when it comes to the last piece of bread, I won't even have to fight you for it. :D

I do understand what you are saying. There is truth in both ideas. And though there are exceptions, overall when it comes to say, one's child, survival mode will kick in very strong, and if not for themselves, they will fight for their child's bread.
THEIR childs.

Survival instinct and competition is not bad, it is a natural force of nature.

But yes, there is compassion, there is the ability to rise above this force. But is that ability in everyone? Maybe it is a greater/lessor thing- in some greater than others. But socialpaths have no such ability. And many are bordering on that line.

The Americans stole the land and massacred most Native Americans. That was about survival and greed. Have we evolved that much in a couple hundred years?

We dropped a couple big bombs on Japan- a retaliation and about survival. War is a competition.

Have we evolved that much in the past sixty years?

But yes- there is a rising consciousness that is flowering on earth.

And maybe it won't always be this way. :smile:

Jyotir
21-05-2011, 07:55 PM
Hello,

Competition - whether with others or even oneself - should be for the enhancement of individual potential and bring out the best in each participant in a collective pursuit.

It is valuable to inspire the improvement of standards of all involved. Win-win. In that way it should be encouraged in the forms of benign creative activities, but especially athletics. If human potential is exercised in this manner the other more problematic manifestations become increasingly less prominent and less important.

It is also an opportunity to develop humility in both 'victory' and 'defeat', gratitude for the opportunity to participate, and admiration of hard work involved in whatever practice any achievement by any individual was based on. The achievements produced by competition also inspire non-competitors toward similar achievement (achieving and exceeding of goals etc) in other areas of life.

There is a possibility and there is some evidence to support this, that humanity is on the cusp of a renaissance based on athletic competition of all types - the transmutation of aggression, vital force and negative competition into a cooperative dynamic and creative competition as an entirely new culture.

~ J

Sundialed
21-05-2011, 08:02 PM
co-operation, not competition

trshk
21-05-2011, 08:16 PM
competition with others is perhaps another word for ego

tragblack
21-05-2011, 08:32 PM
I have concluded that we are powerful spiritual beings and we do have independent spirits and the power to choose.

Lately, I have been getting a little caught up in my head about mushin ("no mind"), going with the flow, and Krishnamurti's ideas that only without thinking and analyzing can the best actions be made-- that thinking any analyzing only further get one stuck (playing around with the idea that the best events and ideas are serendipity). Anyway, it has got me wondering if we ever really choose anything. Since I know that my guides can subtly influence my actions and lead me to things that they want me to know or see, I am aware that most, if not all of my actions, are led by some kind of Divine guidance, and that the times I am using my free will are actually the times in which I am out of synch and not listening?

It's all kind of confusing to me. I don't really know which path to take: the path of choice, which may not exist, or the path of just going with the flow: mushin or wei wu wei.

Deusdrum
23-05-2011, 12:06 AM
I think that a artist sculpts, a painter paints, a gardener gardens, a hockey player plays hockey, a basketball player plays basketball. In all of these things, there is resistance. The artist must overcome the excess stone, to reveal the sculpture within. A gardener battles weeds, and tills soil, to plant her (or his) flowers. A hockey player struggles against other players.

But the point is to put a basketball into the net. That is the zen moment. And the ebb and flow of a basketball or hockey game can be like a state of grace during the experience of effort to put the ball or puck in the net. Players struggle against each other, not as enemies to me, but like 2 bears wrestling with each other, that are brothers, it is play but also a test of strength and ability.

To me sports can be beautiful when a skilled player performs graceful physical feats, much as i can appreciate a well written book, or a beautiful piece of music. It is the flow within the apparent struggle that i find beautiful, and everyone is not a hockey player or an artist, they play these roles, but paradoxically are these roles while they are playing or performing them, but it is the play of the Spirit, in essence.

So i am not disagreeing with either viewing point, but am agreeing with both in a sense.

Deusdrum
24-05-2011, 02:04 AM
:happy3: Yes! As i'm the last to post in this thread, it has been over a full day and it has now moved onto page 2 of the Spiritual Development forum, I am officially the winner of this thread.

My opinion is the champion!

Victory! Oh the Glory!! :happy3:

nightowl
24-05-2011, 02:50 AM
lol...hheeeee...maybe we just let you think you've won...heheeeee :wink:

Deusdrum
24-05-2011, 06:45 AM
Fiddlesticks!

I am the undisputed champion of posting in threads on a forum ever! My opinion has yet to be defeated!

With my masterly ways i can justify anything i have ever said as absolute total truth with impenetrable & certain logic that are officially conclusive and certified as never wrong yet in history!

Can you believe it? I know, right? Amazing! Exactly! Congratulations to me! Why thank you!

Manahel.Fatima
24-05-2011, 06:49 AM
real competition is when you save relation by just competing your self. and to take one step ahead then you compete your self even your energy level is zero.

nightowl
24-05-2011, 06:50 AM
Fiddlesticks!

I am the undisputed champion of posting in threads on a forum ever! My opinion has yet to be defeated!

With my masterly ways i can justify anything i have ever said as absolute total truth with impenetrable & certain logic that are officially conclusive and certified as never wrong yet in history!

Can you believe it? I know, right? Amazing! Exactly! Congratulations to me! Why thank you!

:laughing5: LOL...are you saying there is no one who can compete with you???:D

Deusdrum
24-05-2011, 06:55 AM
Nightowl - i don't know what im doing. Sometimes i get a little weird. Just enjoying making fun of myself i guess.

nightowl
24-05-2011, 06:58 AM
Nightowl - i don't know what im doing. Sometimes i get a little weird. Just enjoying making fun of myself i guess.

that's cool...I thought maybe you were egging some people on in a thread on, competition...I thought it was quite clever :wink:

Miss Hepburn
24-05-2011, 03:13 PM
Now that we are talking about competition with self... it gets into
Spiritual Warfare, imo...or the Battlefield in the Mind or the struggle of lower ego self and our higher ego self...this is off the original
question, imo - but a natural spin off.

As far as competing for space in my mind / my thought world - I, my true higher self, is winning over what Christians refer to as the devil; that
slippery snake that creeps in our thoughts between our ears.
Imo, a slithering, sly snake was the perfect depiction -a worm would have been equally good.

I'm winning, though. I know all its tricks after dealing with
those tricky thoughts for years and observing their
craftiness.

No, my true competition has nothing to do with you guys. No, sirree.
:hug3:

Deusdrum
25-05-2011, 12:32 AM
In regards to Spiritual 'competition', this from the Upanishads (briefly summarized by Wikipedia);

"Krishna's elder half brother, Balarama, ruler of Dwaraka, remained neutral, as both Kauravas and Pandavas are kinsmen of the Yadavas. Krishna became Arjuna's personal charioteer during the 18-day war and protects Arjuna upon numerous occasions from injury and death. The term "Arjuna's Charioteer" i.e. "Parthasarathy" in connection to Krishna is interpreted as "One who guides" or "One who shows the way"; apart from protecting Arjuna from all mishap, Krishna also showed Arjuna the righteous way by revealing the Bhagavad Gita (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FBhagavad_Gita) to him in the hours preceding the battle.

As the two armies fell into battle-formation and faced each other on the battlefield, Arjuna's heart grew heavy. He saw arrayed before him his own kinsfolk: the elders of his clan on whose knees he had once been dandled as a child, the very guru Dronacharya who first taught him to wield the bow all those decades ago. Will it be worthwhile, he asked himself, to annihilate his own kindred for the sake of a kingdom? Arjuna falters as the war is about to begin; he resorts to Krishna for guidance.

It is at this juncture that Lord Krishna reveals the Bhagavad Gita (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fen. wikipedia.org%252Fwiki%252FBhagavad_Gita) to Arjuna. In it, Krishna deems it Arjuna's duty to struggle to uphold righteousness, without consideration of personal loss, consequence or reward; the discharge of one's moral duty, he says, supersedes all other pursuits, both spiritual and material, in life."

Miss Hepburn
25-05-2011, 02:14 PM
Thank you!
:smile:

Deusdrum
26-05-2011, 01:54 AM
that's cool...I thought maybe you were egging some people on in a thread on, competition...I thought it was quite clever :wink:
yeah, sometimes i like to get a little too clever i think, but thanks. :) (Dance monkey, dance! jk) No, i wasn't egging anyone on i don't think, maybe in a general way, somehow, but not serious really, just a bit cheekily, and not consciously.

Miss Hepburn - if that thank you was directed at me, which i'm not entirely sure of as i get confused sometimes, or if it were directed at someone else i guess then i will accept it on their behalf until they get here to claim it for themselves..

You're very welcome. ~ :smile: