Spirituality 101: Basic Mind

[unus supra]

Forgive me for being long winded. This is solid and I could really use feedback.

What id like to present to you, is essentially the modus by which i identify the basic functions of the mind. I understand there is from east to west, and particularly amongst individuals in the west an inclination towards diversity when characterising the mind. Especially "ego".

What i have, i find useful so i figured i would pass it on. Emphasis for me is on user friendly simplicity, and mutual verification. Using our scientific method is very useful, unfortunately in the realm of the mind it is inherently tricky because this method is based on the objective observer, unfortunately the personal experience is largely untouched by this because of its subjectivity. A note of irony, in scientific circles Psychology itself is considered a "soft" science, likewise there was a push in the not so distant past to label it a pseudo science. What is ironic about this, is that the very scientific method itself was created via the very functions that are seen in such an unflattering light. It was created in the mind. That is, for all intents and purposes, borderline crazy. I can understand it though, it seems that due to the vast growth we have experienced via science, it has reached a point where we have put the scientific method on an untouchable pedestal. We have forgotten that inquiry, regardless of method, and the fruits of the creations gleaned from that inquiry is subject to us, not the other way around. I feel that in this light it is time to do with science what we have done with every other creation of ours that is no longer fulfilling its function completely.

Improve upon it. Thus, because we cannot "prove" certain aspects of mind, what i prefer to use instead is what i call Mutual Verification. Essentially what i mean to say is that in studying the mind subjectively we can point to certain functions that can be verified via the subjective verification of not one, but ALL human beings aside from those with mental disorders. I also belief that this forms the frame work for study and understanding of the basic rules that govern reality.

Feedback would be very useful to me. What i am endeavoring towards is a thorough self study of the mind. In my opinion the ability to objectively view the subjective experience is the epitome of scientific inquiry. Truly if we study reality using a microscope and we have not cleansed the lens of our first observational tool, ie the mind, we can never hope for the fruits of our labor to truly reflect the necessities of our human family. There is no way around that one folks. First, know thyself. Well i do. Now the tricky part is putting it in English, like a classic song from a favorite of mine, Snoop Doggy Dogg- "It aint not fun, if the homies cant have none"

A basic breakdown of the mind.

1. Like all of reality is composed of the union of polar opposites, from yin and yang, Shiva and Shakti, to the union of positive and negative charges to form electricity. So to the Mind is composed of two parts. Awareness, and Discriminative Awareness.

2. Awareness- can be further divided into two dominant aspects. Imagine for a moment, a flashlight. You turn it on and point it towards an object. This in relation to the mind, would be the equivalent of focus, or Focused Awareness. Now, take that same flashlight and unscrew the top, and the light illuminates the room in a spherical fashion, hitting all objects equally. This is the second function, i call it Open Awareness, this is another way of saying mindfulness.

3. Discriminative Awareness- DA for short, and this is my definition of the Ego. This serves as the second basic aspect of the mind. It is characterized by the symbolic representation of reality. Essentially, it creates symbols in place of actual objects, thus creating a miniature semblance of reality that the human body can use in relativity. Some people say forget the ego, but the fact of the matter is we learn through contrast, it is essential so we may know what is hidden, that we are directly familiar with what is not. Only when we see what is there and know it for what it truly is, can we let it go.

4. There is another part, called the Reflective Property, that i will dedicate another post to as it is large in and of itself. Illumination and Reflectivity. Its tricky to write. Its Mind without DA. hrmm, my underwears in a knot just thinking about putting it in words.

Now here is whats interesting. The human body responds to the symbolic representation presented by the ego the same as it does to the actual objects. It actually alone, cannot distinguish the two. That is why you see people killing each other over beliefs. That is why a week before the interview, you sit at home with your palms sweating. You are not even there! But you create it in your mind and the body responds as if you are! cool right!? My definition of ones exact point of spiritual awakening is the point in which the individual becomes directly and experiencially aware of the fact that they are not their thoughts. Most people never question the sounds and shapes going through their minds, they identify directly with the symbols and believe that they represent themselves. Until that point, thoughts and impulses have complete governance over the choices of the person. That is not freedom. And the sad thing is, almost everything that we fear, it is almost always worse in our minds and not so bad when we experience it. We need to lose our minds haha. okay...where was i...

The problem we run headlong into is this in brief. Awareness does not have form. The human sensory aparatus is designed to bring objects or "things" to the human beings awareness. Thus all we see are the shapes. Awareness itself is the clarity through which objects may be perceived. We dont see awareness thus often we dont aknowledge, not only its being, but indeed its primacy. Like looking at a cup for instance, we see the shape, we judge it, but it is the clear space within it that makes it useful. The mind cannot see clarity, but it can know. This knowing is the Reflective Property.
Its funny but old things like dont judge a book by its cover, or human beings preoccupation with judging appearance, but truth be told, what is important cannot be seen.

Awareness is akin to a crystal. You know its clear, but if not for the shapes that are seen through it we would not have the frame of reference by which we could know the clarity exists. It is the polar opposite. And this is exactly the relationship between Awareness and DA in the mind.

Alright, ive rambled on enough. My question is specifically do you feel that Mutual Verification is a valid supplement to the Scientific Method? Likewise, if i am missing something in regards to the topics.....Was it explained clearly and concisely? This is my job, this is what i do, the reason for air in these lungs and blood in these veins, I need to know if its doing the job, you cant cure an illness you cant see. Dont hold back. Another thing, hey one day Science and Spirituality will be unified. And that rests on our shoulders, that is the reason as well, that i have used some uncommon terms for eastern issues, ie Open Awareness and Mindfulness. This needs to be digestible to the scientifically inclined mind without assumption or pretense.

HIT ME!!

[Silver]

You want to validate the ego with these ideas...

the Ego. This serves as the second basic aspect of the mind. It is characterized by the symbolic representation of reality. Essentially, it creates symbols in place of actual objects, thus creating a miniature semblance of reality that the human body can use in relativity.

I guess I was unaware that the ego, according to you and whomever else, is the portion of our minds that creates the symbolism to actually create our very thoughts. Is that what you're saying?

I admire anyone who tackles the human brain. for whatever reason, I've been fascinated with it from a very young age.

I happened upon a book that you may or may not have read, by Julian Jaynes entitled The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, in 1983 I read this book. Early on in the book, I found myself planting my right index finger on one of its page and just went wow, like a lot of dots had just been connected without being able to put it all into words it was so big.

Not sure what else I can comment at this point, but like I said, I admire anyone who tries to figure out how our brains/minds really work.

[unus supra]

That sounds interesting....hmm...those oh yeah moments are priceless, as in an idea or concept makes sense.

Yes, there is a lot of different definitions for it, and or perspectives. So i figured i would create my own with simplicity in mind.

If you look up at something, whats right in front of you for instance, the first mind moment is apprehension, or the moment your sense has it in awareness, the next is perception, what is the object? That is based on the symbolic store, ie the english language.

the next is appraisal, what is the value of the object? Followed by physiological responses based on our value of the object. But when you look at an object you see it, percieve it, and the appraisal point brings into play value and judgement and things of that nature, which is highly individualized. Likewise it brings into play physical aspects, it is not purely of the mind.
Appraisal is not shared by everyone, symbolic representation in the form of thought is.

A lot of people demonize the ego, to a greater or lesser degree, that has a lot to do with values, and the evaluation of the object comes distinctly after the faculty of the intellect has done the job of identification.

so i said, okay, the ego is on its own harmless. Just like a hand. But if your angry (value, judgement etc.) you can create a fist. This has to do with appraisal.

so at what point do we draw the line?

I said the value and appraisal system is so comprehensive AND it is utterly distinct for each individual.

So i drew the line at the level that we all share. Identifying the ego with solid edges that may afford us the opportunity to observe it and its distinct functions. much like an organ. the heart pumps blood, the lungs bring in and take out air, discriminative awareness creates thought. That way we can more easily step back and say

Mara i see you

The mind has a very fascinating way of putting a tapestry of events together in what appears to be a seamless fashion. And while there is a vast amount of interplay between each of the things occuring, in separating them we are afforded the opportunity to catch them in the act and see that while this interplay has created what appears to be a permanent entity, there is not one indentifiable aspect that is. Each is comming and going. There is no one home.

Also, with meditation, the Buddhist conception of which is "familiarization", as in familiarization with the functions of our mind,
we try to bring our mind into this moment, so we can see each process arising and falling so we can de link the causal chain of conditioning. That way, for instance if you are meditating and you have an impulse, that impulse creates a thought, that thought creates an emotion which goes through the cycle over and over again, by giving it a definitive edge, we can catch our mind at the moment of impulse, if not there, then at the moment of thought and de link it before it spirals into another conditioned response.

i feel strongly that labeling it as such will assist that. And you were definently not un aware, thats just how i see it, i know EGO means so many things to so many different people

god i hate sounding like a smart a$$, but i hope that brought it together.

[seeker2011]

I see too much to reply to except for this:
I read in many old books a very interesting thing, it said "You are not your mind, your mind is yours."
I add this next part:
Merely a tool or device for perception and what is used to learn to focus consciousness. This is difficult to get away from. As difficult as discovering you are not your body, we just think we are because it's how we get from one place to another, among other uses.

I have always used my mind to understand things. Somehow, there is translation. From outer experience to inner knowing. And somehow, the knowing is 'felt?' by a more permanent part of ourselves. When meditation gets me to the part that knows, rather than the part that thinks, mind is quite absent. Consciousness is there instead.

In order to write this I use (am in) my mind. In order to know what I'm trying to say, I use consciousness. Semantics, sure. But language is a limitation.

[unus supra]

right on, couldnt agree more

that actually was going to be the reflective property,
but it was too difficult for me to figure out how to properly put it into
words.

darn it i really wish i could...

[Perspective]

...Improve upon it. Thus, because we cannot "prove" certain aspects of mind, what i prefer to use instead is what i call Mutual Verification. Essentially what i mean to say is that in studying the mind subjectively we can point to certain functions that can be verified via the subjective verification of not one, but ALL human beings aside from those with mental disorders. I also belief that this forms the frame work for study and understanding of the basic rules that govern reality. Hi Unus Supra, :smile:
I like your depth & appreciate the insights you've shared.
I love Psychology & a part of me wonders if the sum total of everyone is God, so what you present here interests me!
I'm wondering... How would Mutual Verification be administered?
Obviously, you can't get everyone's input, so you'd have to be selective.
What would the selection be based on? Gender? Age? Culture? Educational level?
Would it strive to be balanced among all types of people? First, know thyself. Well i do. You gave permission to hit, right? Got your boxing gloves on? :D
I don't think anyone really knows themselves. The reason I believe this is because there are countless possible circumstances which if you found yourself in, would surpise you. At this moment, you have no idea how you'd really react... life is an adventure of self-discovery!
Carl Jung explaned how he could make a sane man insane.Now, take that same flashlight and unscrew the top, and the light illuminates the room in a spherical fashion, hitting all objects equally. This is the second function, i call it Open Awareness, this is another way of saying mindfulness. I like that analogy!
I believe each perspective has truth. Of course, it's just one part of the big picture, so the more perspectives, the more truthfull.Illumination and Reflectivity. Its tricky to write. Its Mind without DA. hrmm, my underwears in a knot just thinking about putting it in words. :icon_lol: You are not even there! But you create it in your mind and the body responds as if you are! cool right!? My definition of ones exact point of spiritual awakening is the point in which the individual becomes directly and experiencially aware of the fact that they are not their thoughts. Most people never question the sounds and shapes going through their minds, they identify directly with the symbols and believe that they represent themselves. Until that point, thoughts and impulses have complete governance over the choices of the person. That is not freedom. And the sad thing is, almost everything that we fear, it is almost always worse in our minds and not so bad when we experience it. We need to lose our minds haha. We need to lose our minds you say? What if it's already done? :D
Really, as you mentioned, we need to search our minds, to be aware of harmful beliefs, to view them with openness & determination to do what is best/most loving for us in the big picture.Like looking at a cup for instance, we see the shape, we judge it, but it is the clear space within it that makes it useful. The mind cannot see clarity, but it can know. This knowing is the Reflective Property.
Its funny but old things like dont judge a book by its cover, or human beings preoccupation with judging appearance, but truth be told, what is important cannot be seen. I love that! :color:

[Perspective]

... A lot of people demonize the ego, to a greater or lesser degree, that has a lot to do with values, and the evaluation of the object comes distinctly after the faculty of the intellect has done the job of identification.

so i said, okay, the ego is on its own harmless. Just like a hand. But if your angry (value, judgement etc.) you can create a fist. This has to do with appraisal.

...Also, with meditation, the Buddhist conception of which is "familiarization", as in familiarization with the functions of our mind,
we try to bring our mind into this moment, so we can see each process arising and falling so we can de link the causal chain of conditioning. That way, for instance if you are meditating and you have an impulse, that impulse creates a thought, that thought creates an emotion which goes through the cycle over and over again, by giving it a definitive edge, we can catch our mind at the moment of impulse, if not there, then at the moment of thought and de link it before it spirals into another conditioned response.

i feel strongly that labeling it as such will assist that. And you were definently not un aware, thats just how i see it, i know EGO means so many things to so many different people

god i hate sounding like a smart a$$, but i hope that brought it together.I'll be a smart A$$ too, rather than the opposite I hope. :D
Really, what I learn & share is just a new mix of what others have taught.

I read that breath is the bridge between body & soul.
I notice when I'm concentrating or stressed, I breath shallowly or even hold my breath.
Breathing is part of meditation & self-love & awareness.
Self-love can always be nurturing through deep & relaxed breathing, especially when loving ourselves in the "tough love" way.
It can be painful, though necessary, to explore our thoughts & emotions.
Like in yoga or other challenging experiences, we may want to give up. Yet, when we breath through it, we can endure by changing our focus from fear or denial to love & appreciation for that moment.

As you mentioned, there's a tendency to want to disassociate with our egos. Yet our egos are here to stay. Ignoring or denying them is like ignoring a toddler in a room full of lit candles and papers. I think it's important to acknoweldge that we will never be "perfect" - & that our ego is a necessary part of us that is always striving, but never completely arriving.

We "live happily ever after" one breath at a time. And we grow spiritually, through acknowledging & working through each shadow aspect, through both intellect and intuition.

That's my take on it anyway, "smart a$$" and all.
About being "smart"... one day we're driving home from church after our kids were driving us crazy & my husband reprimanded them, "Your mom & I are in charge, so I don't want you acting smart!" Then my 5-year-old said, "What's 2+2? I don't know."
As a math wiz, I thought you might like that story. :wink: :smile:

[unus supra]

thank you for the thought provoking reply.

haha, ya i can take hit.

alright, in terms of mutual verification. the truth is i havnt figured that out, in fact what you wrote actually clued me in to some things that have to be taken into consideration. perhaps you can elaborate further and we can come up with something workable. as of right now i use it on a face to face basis, saying, alright, are we seeing the same thing? very informal, and taking it at face value. In the final stanza this is insufficient. At the same time, objective observation is not applicable to things of this nature....

so what is the answer? i dont know.

In terms of knowing myself, okay, i am content to agree to dis agree. your argument is from my standpoint both reasonable and in many ways valid.
I will say, in as much as our reactions are concerned i view our reactions as not accurately representing what we are. Because while indeed much of us is perpetually in a state of change, that leads to self discovery as you keenly stated,

the ground of our being, that which gives us life, sustains us, and through which we move and have our being is Absolute and Immovable.

In relation to perspectives being pertinent, i feel the same way, but my concern is for those aspects of reality that stand beyond our perspective, those that are not subject to our interpretation. Having said that, i agree that to approach that "big picture" more fully it is useful to do as you said, assimilate what we have learned and add it onto what we know.

i do the same thing myself constantly. Like our personalities and our reactions constantly changing and transmuting i think we should mimic that evolution with our learning.

Interesting parallel. haha i love when that happens,
personally thats my verification. as above so below and when it just falls into place i leave it alone. unfortunately or fortunately though depending on who you ask, this is not about me so where were we..

in terms of losing our minds i think belief, period, at a point becomes counterproductive. I see a great many people, act out there beliefs with their being and to me, this shows conclusively that rather than having lost their minds, their minds and their emotions have total governance over their body. And the mind, thoughts themselves are by and large completely mechanistic. They can be tracked, and when certain programs have been familiarized to ourselves, we can accurately predict where it is going.

good? bad?, neither, but none the less evident.

i didnt get the joke, i couldnt figure out the calculus hahaha.
i needed that.

Hey, im a big fan of the breath, thanks for showing me more insights as to why its useful. our ability to observe these events transpiring within our minds is determined by our ability to maintain a state of awareness, to anchor our minds, and for me, the breath is where its at. what you said was inspiring to. Loving ourselves, can seem so strange, foreign even, but like forgiving ourselves, so very important. Truth is sometimes i dont like to admit it to myself. Cant stand the fluff, but sometimes its what our little child needs right? I forget it sometimes, thank you for the much needed reminder.

hey, Perspective,


thanks.

[Perspective]

thank you for the thought provoking reply.

...alright, in terms of mutual verification. the truth is i havnt figured that out, in fact what you wrote actually clued me in to some things that have to be taken into consideration. perhaps you can elaborate further and we can come up with something workable. as of right now i use it on a face to face basis, saying, alright, are we seeing the same thing? very informal, and taking it at face value. In the final stanza this is insufficient. At the same time, objective observation is not applicable to things of this nature....Informally, it would be helpful to get the opposite sex's perspective.
I think that's why marriage is so helpful, not just enjoyable & nerve-wracking. :tongue:
Men & women think differently. Men's & women's brains are wired differently - so that when hooked up to those brain monitor wires & exposed to the same stimulus, men's brains light up differently than women's brains.
So, I'd say, informally, our perspectives may be improved by getting the perspective of someone of the opposite sex.in terms of losing our minds i think belief, period, at a point becomes counterproductive. I see a great many people, act out there beliefs with their being and to me, this shows conclusively that rather than having lost their minds, their minds and their emotions have total governance over their body. And the mind, thoughts themselves are by and large completely mechanistic. They can be tracked, and when certain programs have been familiarized to ourselves, we can accurately predict where it is going.

good? bad?, neither, but none the less evident.I can see how holding on to incorrect beliefs (from religion, family etc.) are counterproductive, yet we can't function in life without thinking.
Maybe what you were implying is that we need to be aware of & manage our thoughts & beliefs, so they don't rule us.
As you mentioned, that probably starts with not labeling ourselves good or bad for believing something... but to try to find more productive ways of thinking.

And... just so you know, if you ever get really serious about losing your mind, come live my life for um... about a week - that should do it. ha ha :D Loving ourselves, can seem so strange, foreign even, but like forgiving ourselves, so very important. Truth is sometimes i dont like to admit it to myself. Cant stand the fluff, but sometimes its what our little child needs right? I forget it sometimes, thank you for the much needed reminder.

hey, Perspective,

thanks.I know what you mean. I'm still learning to love myself.
But I don't think love is fluff. I mean, you lift weights right? Most wouldn't consider that fluff - yet it is a way of loving yourself - by taking care of yourself & doing what you feel is best for you, physically & mentally.
Sometimes we need to get our ego "hit" :tongue: - that's love, if it's what we need for our higher good.
Sometimes, the child within us needs to cry & be nurtured - that's love if it's what we need for our higher good.

Thank you, too, Unus Supra. :hug3:

[Xan]

seeker: I read in many old books a very interesting thing, it said "You are not your mind, your mind is yours."


Yep... That would be it.

Now... Who are you?


Xan

[unus supra]

Perspective, its funny but i never thought about that, lifting weights as a means of loving oneself. hmm interesting. no matter how wise (or foolish, depending on who you ask) i may be some times a fresh perspective is whats needed, no pun intended.

It also never crossed my mind that the opposite sex would perhaps perceive differently. very interesting.

Xan- no doubt. great servant, terrible master that it is haha

and thats the one thing i cannot explain in words.
and i never will be.

hey can you guys do me a favor??

really...??


take it easy

hahaha

[WonderLight]

In the beginnings of christian monasticism there was a group of mystics called Hesychasts (an interesting book to research this would be The Triads, byGregory Palamas - from the Classics of Western Spirituality series). Based on a concept they had -- that the true seat of mind is in the heart, and part of the dilemma of human existence is due to the confusion caused by the separation of awareness between head and heart, they developed a set of practices to bring their devotional focus back to the center of their being. Of course the idea of mind being centered in the body is common to other religious beliefs as well.
I don't know if this helps --or relates well to your search. But I thought it might add something, a piece of the puzzle perhaps. Hope so. I believe that the answer to all questions can be found by taking this route, i.e. centering.

blessings to you in your endeavor

WonderLight

[Xan]

WonderLight: ...the true seat of mind is in the heart, and part of the dilemma of human existence is due to the confusion caused by the separation of awareness between head and heart, they developed a set of practices to bring their devotional focus back to the center of their being.

Yes... Many people, including spiritual teachers, are coming to this... the need to give our attention into the center of our being in the inner heart.

Here's a practice: Inner Heart Meditation - http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=3695



Xan