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nalan
11-05-2011, 08:20 PM
Have you read it? It's a true story about a boy's visit to heaven. It has, literally, blown my mind.

I believed in God and that Jesus loves us, but I didn't believe in hell...therefore, I guess I didn't really believe in heaven, though I do believe that we are all reunited at some point.

Anyway, the concept that Jesus came to save us is starting to sink in, as in I'm starting to think that is the case.

BUT why does the God of Love need/have hell? Forgive 7x70. :confused:

GoddessLove
11-05-2011, 09:02 PM
I don't understand the concept that there is a hell either. Let me tell you why.

I had this female friend who was going through a lot of spiritual warfare (she still is). She judges herself and others so harshly, she never feels any peace. She had a rough upbringing which eventually led up to her becoming a born again Christian. She became a member of a strict church as well. Well...one day she called me hysterical about the fact that I needed to pray to God or I would go to hell. I started crying because I was afraid.

She said that during her prayer, she saw hell! And that there were many people there. She said that it was dark and smelled awful and that there were people with rotting skin walking around. She said that she went to visit with Jesus because he wanted to show her what she was saved from. She said that all the kids that were aborted were rotting in hell next to their parents, and so were the killers, child molestors, etc. She said that "every sin is the same in God's eyes." She said Jesus told her that if I did not get saved, I would go to hell. She made me cry so bad that I started becoming a very STRICT christian.

She said that in order to avoid hell, one must follow every exact message of the bible. I started doing so. Long story short, I became so afraid of going to hell, that I created hell for all those around me. Including myself.

I tell you today that hell is what is in your mind. Judgment is hell. All that matters truly, is that we love others, for that is truly heaven.

nalan
12-05-2011, 02:09 AM
Wow, what an experience.

Did it anger you that you became a strict Christian because of the threat of hell?

That has bothered me since I was at least 7 years old. How could our God, our Jesus, send us--his creations--to hell?

And that is why I stopped believing what I was told to believe, and that is when I began to question.

I have a theory about hell, though, and I'm going to post it here and in another place because I need feedback.

If the ultimiate definition of sin is separation and distance from God, then hell is distance from God. To have Jesus, the Prince of Peace, in your heart is to have love in your heart. Jesus states that he is the way, the truth, and the life. So to have Jesus in your heart is to have love in your heart.

That said, those with no love in their hearts are already living in their own hell. They commit sins, or not, but without love, they are separated from God. Thus they create their own, living hell.

Enter reincarnation. I am trying to understand my own and very real memories of many past lives as well as understand how Jesus is my Lord and Savior. Is it something as simple as life itself: repeat until you get it right? Life lessons present themselves, and they get harder until we get them right. What if the same applies for life in general?

I have a distinct and vivid memory of a past life in which I blamed myself for the death of my son and neice. That part of me remained in a hell of her own until I found her through means I do not understand, and I brought her out of it. She created her own hell to punish herself for perceived wrong-doings.

So I speculate that without belief in Jesus himself and the ultimate forgiveness he offers, we continue to reincarnate until we "get it right." And that the constant reincarnations are, themselves, hell...or hellish. However you perceive it.

If I could rejoin loved ones in a place of safety, comfort, joy, and love, I would do so willingly; wouldn't you?

So I theorize that hell is our own making only because our reincarnations haven't gotten it right yet.

GoddessLove
12-05-2011, 03:11 AM
Hi Nalan.

I was very angry once I realized what a miserable person I became. I hated myself. And I wondered what kind of God would be so judgmental, jealous, and unmerciful...I became very confused, as a resullt. My interpretations changed. My innocence became bridled by fear and sadness.

I think what got me OUT of that was my blossoming love of the child I use to be. I started to miss her. If that makes sense. I realized that all my past actions were what I knew best to do at the time...there were no mistakes, just consequences for my actions. I realized that I was more a survivor than I ever was a sinner. And asking for God's understanding became the premise for our emerging relationship. It was than that I became a follower of love and not religion. I am still healing and learning how to forgive myself. But I rather this path than one filled with self loathing or any fear, including the fear of hell.

I do believe so much in your understanding of life and the "hell" that exists. I don't believe that the literal definition is relevant...I choose to focus on heaven anyway.

nightowl
12-05-2011, 03:43 AM
Have you read it? It's a true story about a boy's visit to heaven. It has, literally, blown my mind.

I believed in God and that Jesus loves us, but I didn't believe in hell...therefore, I guess I didn't really believe in heaven, though I do believe that we are all reunited at some point.

Anyway, the concept that Jesus came to save us is starting to sink in, as in I'm starting to think that is the case.

BUT why does the God of Love need/have hell? Forgive 7x70. :confused:

I could go into a long explanation of the concept of hell but it would just be easier for me to suggest that you do a little research on where the concept of hell originated. It is worth looking outside the box of Christianity to get a better perspective on the topic. I hope you find your answers :smile: .

nightowl

themaster
12-05-2011, 09:26 AM
BUT why does the God of Love need/have hell? Forgive 7x70. :confused:Hell, is a ego fear.. and in a way.. also used to compel people to do things.. if you don't listen to me, you'll burn in hell! :D

It's part of the judgment game of the 3rd dimension.. doesn't exist.. and yet it also exists.. when you imagine HELL, what you imagine is real.. however, I don't think it's a horrible place.. probably quite nice.. you'd have to visit to know.. :wink:

Free_Falling
12-05-2011, 09:37 AM
Religion was invented as a means to control the masses, and how can you be controlled if you have nothing to fear? So, they had to invent something for you to fear, so you would be forced to listen to them. As for people who "see" hell, I agree with Themaster, we could all "see" hell if we were in the "right" frame of mind. I think if someone was deathly afraid of spiders, their version of hell would be filled with spider eggs, spider nests, spiders coming out of every crevice, etc. They say life is what you make it, I would say the same saying goes for hell :D lol

Guard
12-05-2011, 10:28 AM
First of all, I to beleive that it is more a state of mind. Hell goes way back to Ancient Egypt and Greek religions. Christianity and a few other faiths siezed this concept as an opporunity to control people. I was raised Christian and follow Jesus as my inpiration for all things. That being said. When you said something like "aborted babies burning in hell." Uh, love the fact they had a choice in the matter. No choice other than the fact that the mother aborted the child. That is the most hideious thing I've ever heard. Put things in perspective and and try to put love in the equation. According to Christianity, The 6 million jews Hitler tortured and murdered went to hell when they were gassed. The Hindu woman in the nursing home that has become cenile and barely remembers who she is anymore and spent her life caring for her children and others selflessly. A hell awaits. **! I'm sorry, but I cannot wrap my mind arounf that level of unlove and hate. Why would God create this universe and God seem completely unfathomable and will only create one path to reconcile with God no matter when you lived. (Except those before Christ get a free pass of course) See love in that.

Free_Falling
12-05-2011, 10:39 AM
Completely agreed, Guard. My grandma always tells me if I don't believe in the bible I will go to hell and so will everyone else who doesn't believe. But what about the people in remote villages and jungles that have never and will never hear about christianity? Do they go to hell too? There are just way too many inconsistencies for me.

nalan
12-05-2011, 04:21 PM
Agreed, Guard.
My husband and I had a huge discussion about hell last night. He is a firm believer in it, a firm Catholic, and a firm "sheeple" (people who follow blindly, do what they're told, don't ask questions, etc.)

How can a loving god punish those people you brought up?

But in that book, the little boy said there is a hell. He did not elaborate.

Kaere
12-05-2011, 04:35 PM
I'm reading this book now - the way I see it, the little boy had an nde and saw Jesus and all the other things the way he did because that was how he could relate to it. Keeping in mind that his father is a preacher and practices his sermons with his son around (he says this in the book), I do not find it unlikely that the boy picked up a lot of imagery and ideas about Jesus and the afterlife from that. Then during the nde, what he saw was a reflection of what his subconscious "knew".

In short, the way we see the afterlife is modeled quite a bit on our own individual experience and learnings. At least at first - I believe after a time in the afterlife, those reflections and projections fade away and we realize more of the truth about what it actually is.

TzuJanLi
12-05-2011, 05:12 PM
Greetings..

I'm reading this book now - the way I see it, the little boy had an nde and saw Jesus and all the other things the way he did because that was how he could relate to it. Keeping in mind that his father is a preacher and practices his sermons with his son around (he says this in the book), I do not find it unlikely that the boy picked up a lot of imagery and ideas about Jesus and the afterlife from that. Then during the nde, what he saw was a reflection of what his subconscious "knew".

In short, the way we see the afterlife is modeled quite a bit on our own individual experience and learnings. At least at first - I believe after a time in the afterlife, those reflections and projections fade away and we realize more of the truth about what it actually is.


Good call, Kaere, the conditioning shapes the interpretations.. the NDE experiences are 'imageless', as the structure of physical existence is breaking down and the physical references of individuality fall away.. there is a sense of rushing outward, a 'vibration' that increases, in all directions, accelerating so fast that i initially felt something like panic, but.. that same sensation instantly becomes 'pure'.. not 'pure' this or that, just 'pure'.. then, on all three occasions, i began feeling myself collapsing and condensing, returning... it is the recollections of the experience that are shaped to fit the beliefs and conditioning.. i did not sense 'light' in the actual experience, but the recollection interprets the vibrations as 'Light', and the recollection deels like 'light'..

Be well..

nalan
12-05-2011, 07:24 PM
Ah, now that makes sense, especially because the boy did not elaborate. Thank you.

nightowl,
You asked me to research my own understandings/beginnings of hell. That would be my Catholic upbringing.

Thank you all for such insightful responses.

nightowl
12-05-2011, 08:09 PM
Ah, now that makes sense, especially because the boy did not elaborate. Thank you.

nightowl,
You asked me to research my own understandings/beginnings of hell. That would be my Catholic upbringing.

Thank you all for such insightful responses.

yes, I understand you are Christian/Catholic. What I was pointing to about the research is that if you look outside the Christian concept of hell, you will see it didn't originate there, so you could see it from a different perspective. Not just from the Christian view. :smile:

nalan
12-05-2011, 08:32 PM
yes, I understand you are Christian/Catholic. What I was pointing to about the research is that if you look outside the Christian concept of hell, you will see it didn't originate there, so you could see it from a different perspective. Not just from the Christian view.

Oh, I'm rather thick at times. Actually, no, I didn't know that the concept of hell existed in other religions, and it is something I will research. Thank you.

Mind's Eye
12-05-2011, 09:08 PM
Have you read it? It's a true story about a boy's visit to heaven. It has, literally, blown my mind.

I believed in God and that Jesus loves us, but I didn't believe in hell...therefore, I guess I didn't really believe in heaven, though I do believe that we are all reunited at some point.

Anyway, the concept that Jesus came to save us is starting to sink in, as in I'm starting to think that is the case.

BUT why does the God of Love need/have hell? Forgive 7x70. :confused:

I heard this book rose a lot of questions to the careful reader. Although I have not read it myself, I heard many people say that this very small boy used some words and descriptions that a boy his age would not even know. They say to the casual reader it looks very mind blowing, but upon careful analysis one realizes that this child is using some very big words.

It is suspected by some that the father, who is a pastor, set up a con job using his own child to try and prove his religious point of view.

Again, I have not read the book myself but others were not impressed and smelled something fishy.

Guard
12-05-2011, 09:28 PM
.

Oh, I'm rather thick at times. Actually, no, I didn't know that the concept of hell existed in other religions, and it is something I will research. Thank you.

The concept of hell goes as far back as when humankind attempted to structure relgions based on the unknown. Thousands of years...many many thousands of years.

nalan
12-05-2011, 10:10 PM
The concept of hell goes as far back as when humankind attempted to structure relgions based on the unknown. Thousands of years...many many thousands of years.

I'm feeling more and more ignorant because I thoroughly love learning about/researching ancient cultures...but I now realize that I have not examined the religious beliefs of those cultures. I looked more at similarities in the quest to understand how many cultures just sprang up. Of course religion would have to play a part! *duh!!!*

It is suspected by some that the father, who is a pastor, set up a con job using his own child to try and prove his religious point of view.

That is certainly a valid possibility. Read with a skeptical mind.

Guard
12-05-2011, 10:54 PM
Agreed, Guard.

But in that book, the little boy said there is a hell. He did not elaborate.

So if you read something, then it is true without question? I think not. YOu have to search your own heart and find truth within all the **. When you ask yourself many deep questions, you will hopefully realize that God is just Creation and endless love...period! Not a chess match with your soul in the balance. There is no point in endless torture. None...whatsoever...If you ask someone this question, the only thing they can say is whatever religious scriptures say this in regards to their religion. You ask them to asnwer this with their heart and from the standpoint of the endless love of God and it becomes impossible to hold this view in allignment with enternal torment because the 2 cannot exists in unison.

zipzip
12-05-2011, 11:06 PM
Hi Nalan.

I was very angry once I realized what a miserable person I became. I hated myself. And I wondered what kind of God would be so judgmental, jealous, and unmerciful...I became very confused, as a resullt. My interpretations changed. My innocence became bridled by fear and sadness.

I think what got me OUT of that was my blossoming love of the child I use to be. I started to miss her. If that makes sense. I realized that all my past actions were what I knew best to do at the time...there were no mistakes, just consequences for my actions. I realized that I was more a survivor than I ever was a sinner. And asking for God's understanding became the premise for our emerging relationship. It was than that I became a follower of love and not religion. I am still healing and learning how to forgive myself. But I rather this path than one filled with self loathing or any fear, including the fear of hell.

I do believe so much in your understanding of life and the "hell" that exists. I don't believe that the literal definition is relevant...I choose to focus on heaven anyway.


I really love this. This is exactly like my life: I became so angry with how my life was becoming that everyone became miserable; especially me.
I don't believe in hell.


zipzip

nalan
12-05-2011, 11:21 PM
So if you read something, then it is true without question? I think not. YOu have to search your own heart and find truth within all the **. When you ask yourself many deep questions, you will hopefully realize that God is just Creation and endless love...period! Not a chess match with your soul in the balance. There is no point in endless torture. None...whatsoever...If you ask someone this question, the only thing they can say is whatever religious scriptures say this in regards to their religion. You ask them to asnwer this with their heart and from the standpoint of the endless love of God and it becomes impossible to hold this view in allignment with enternal torment because the 2 cannot exists in unison.

Wow. This is huge. When I have engaged in conversation about the existence of hell, the only ones who support it are bible thumpers or sheeple. The majority answer with, "Maybe, but..." because their true selves know that the God of Love cannot coexist with Hell. How insightful of you to point out that people's compassion guides the, "Maybe buts." I hadn't thought of that.

Today I found an icon of the Virgin Mary on the ground. I picked it up and took it as a sign that something significant would happen today in my understanding. And it's happened.

Listening to our own hearts, we instinctively know that hell cannot possibly exist, at least in the biblical sense.

Thank you.

Shabda
13-05-2011, 12:56 AM
.

Wow. This is huge. When I have engaged in conversation about the existence of hell, the only ones who support it are bible thumpers or sheeple. The majority answer with, "Maybe, but..." because their true selves know that the God of Love cannot coexist with Hell. How insightful of you to point out that people's compassion guides the, "Maybe buts." I hadn't thought of that.

Today I found an icon of the Virgin Mary on the ground. I picked it up and took it as a sign that something significant would happen today in my understanding. And it's happened.

Listening to our own hearts, we instinctively know that hell cannot possibly exist, at least in the biblical sense.

Thank you.
there is no hell in the biblical sense, but hell does exist, also, the so called god of the bible is NOT the true one God, not at all, he is the very same entity that christians refer to as satan, one and the same....he just does the job he was given to do, nothing more, and each negative occurrence in this world serves a specific purpose, even if a human finds it hard to understand...the several "heavens" above the physical arent actually heaven at all, though they would certainly seem as if they are by comparison with the physical plane, however, when a soul completes its training here, it is able to move beyond and into the realm of the true Absolute, where there is no duality, the true home of soul...many will disagree, and that is fine, i report what ive seen and experienced myself, and of course that isnt able to serve as proof to any but myself, each must gain their own experience on the matter...

nalan
13-05-2011, 01:31 AM
there is no hell in the biblical sense, but hell does exist, also, the so called god of the bible is NOT the true one God, not at all, he is the very same entity that christians refer to as satan, one and the same....he just does the job he was given to do, nothing more, and each negative occurrence in this world serves a specific purpose, even if a human finds it hard to understand...the several "heavens" above the physical arent actually heaven at all, though they would certainly seem as if they are by comparison with the physical plane, however, when a soul completes its training here, it is able to move beyond and into the realm of the true Absolute, where there is no duality, the true home of soul...many will disagree, and that is fine, i report what ive seen and experienced myself, and of course that isnt able to serve as proof to any but myself, each must gain their own experience on the matter...

Are you referring to the fact that God in the Old Testament is completely different from God in the New Testament?

I am rather intrigued to know what you know, mainly because my perception of angels is far from the norm.

Shabda
13-05-2011, 04:00 AM
Are you referring to the fact that God in the Old Testament is completely different from God in the New Testament?

I am rather intrigued to know what you know, mainly because my perception of angels is far from the norm. actually not at all, what i am saying is that Jehova isnt actually God at all, he is higher than earth, but lower than heaven, and i realize that this statement may ruffle the feathers of some, but ill maintain that this is what youll learn if you go to visit him without waiting to die first, and anyone literally can do that...this "god" Jehova (just one of his names) lives completely within the worlds of duality, not in the realm of soul, what i would call the first true heaven, and he is in fact the negative pole of duality, the same as "satan" or the same figure in the eastern religions known as kal niranjan, he tests and tests soul until soul develops(remembers) the creative abilities it was created with and is able to go into that first truly spiritual plane, which is only the first of such, there is still quite a voyage ahead beyond that state...dont take my word for it, go within and look for yourself, everyone...and i want to add a clarification about "hell", such places do exist, but they are far from places of eternal torture, not eternal by any means whatsoever...

Silver
13-05-2011, 04:03 AM
actually not at all, what i am saying is that Jehova isnt actually God at all, he is higher than earth, but lower than heaven, and i realize that this statement may ruffle the feathers of some, but ill maintain that this is what youll learn if you go to visit him without waiting to die first, and anyone literally can do that...this "god" Jehova (just one of his names) lives completely within the worlds of duality, not in the realm of soul, what i would call the first true heaven, and he is in fact the negative pole of duality, the same as "satan" or the same figure in the eastern religions known as kal niranjan, he tests and tests soul until soul develops(remembers) the creative abilities it was created with and is able to go into that first truly spiritual plane, which is only the first of such, there is still quite a voyage ahead beyond that state...dont take my word for it, go within and look for yourself, everyone...


...so is it just a matter of learning to AP or what? wow, totally intrigued...

Shabda
13-05-2011, 04:13 AM
...so is it just a matter of learning to AP or what? wow, totally intrigued... yes indeed, or at least for starters, any "hellish" places are located in the lower areas of the astral, but there's no reason to stop on the astral plane or just look for evidence of any hell, there are many others, and i would definitely recommend out of body travel as the means of exploring them and learning about them, as well as a great many other things relating to spirituality, and if i can do it, ANY of you can too, im not at all the sharpest tool in the shed :D

Silver
13-05-2011, 04:18 AM
Hah, the way you write about it, you ought to prepare a 'traveler's guide' may I ask how often you 'travel' there. You could prepare a gps for us. Somehow I don't think bread crumbs would help if we get lost.
:D

nalan
13-05-2011, 01:50 PM
The only time I've experienced "out of body experiences" was during sleep and high-anxiety times. I was aware I was outside of my body because I was hovering above it, but it freaked me out even more, so I assume I returned to it and jolted myself awake.

The closest I've come to an awareness when I am asleep is the occasional lucid dreaming. I've gotten much better with this and dream manipulation.

But I do not know how to will myself to astral project or to go into the realms you speak of. A handbook would be brilliant! :cool: But what would you suggest for starters?

Eudaimonist
13-05-2011, 02:05 PM
I tell you today that hell is what is in your mind. Judgment is hell. All that matters truly, is that we love others, for that is truly heaven.

That's beautiful, and this is probably the original inspiration behind the Gospels. Unfortunately, it is very easy for that to get twisted around until it achieves the exact opposite of its intent.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Shabda
13-05-2011, 02:43 PM
The only time I've experienced "out of body experiences" was during sleep and high-anxiety times. I was aware I was outside of my body because I was hovering above it, but it freaked me out even more, so I assume I returned to it and jolted myself awake.

The closest I've come to an awareness when I am asleep is the occasional lucid dreaming. I've gotten much better with this and dream manipulation.

But I do not know how to will myself to astral project or to go into the realms you speak of. A handbook would be brilliant! :cool: But what would you suggest for starters?
all of the examples you mention are obe's even lucid dreaming, the first thing id recommend would be to overcome that fear of it, you cant get lost or not be able to get back in the body, a simple thought of the body would return you immediately...everyone, when they sleep, is out of the body, its literally THAT common and THAT natural of an occurrence, there is nothing to be afraid of...if you have gotten better with lucid dream manipulation, then really you are already halfway there...try meditation, during the waking hours, maybe 20 - 30 minutes a day, and if nothing amazing happens right away, keep trying and be patient...it is important to get yourself completely relaxed, so perhaps sit up, over the back of a kitchen chair if falling asleep worries you or is a problem for you...focus the attention on the spiritual eye, stay relaxed...one method uses visualization wherein you visualize a scene or a place, and keep looking at it, noticing small details about it, until you find yourself literally in the scene, out of the body...personally i use a mantra, a word that has meaning for you, used as a tool to focus the attention and the wandering mind...you could use "God" or Jesus, or Allah, or any other term that has a spiritual significance for you personally...

Shabda
13-05-2011, 02:48 PM
Hah, the way you write about it, you ought to prepare a 'traveler's guide' may I ask how often you 'travel' there. You could prepare a gps for us. Somehow I don't think bread crumbs would help if we get lost.
:D
several times during a given week, sometimes i dont even have to "travel", it is found that one (soul) can simply be aware of a location if it wishes to be, so that movement isnt needed, just an expansion of awareness...all of those Sufi poets speak of this sort of thing quite often, and so did Jesus....im not sure about preparing a GPS but what the heck, thats no reason not to try~! :D