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seeker2011
08-05-2011, 10:59 PM
What's the use? We get thrown into this world with no way of knowing what we are. We get grown by egotistical parents into what they want, without any say-so. We get to a point where we can speak for ourselves and what do we do? we quote idiots who wrote books that caught our attention. Then we go on and think we have some idea what is real, but not, it aint happening. In this reality, if you aint rich, you aint nothing. There is no defendable ideaological response to this,you and me, are all wrong. There is no way to understand what life is supposed to be from the ego point of view, there is no way to view life from any other point of view, we are lost and abandoned by everything that might be considered "higher". We, as personalities on the Earth, are temporary and expendable. When we realize this through whatever means we find, we find we are still expendable. Nice. I had hoped that spiritual awareness would yield some kind of comfort, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not yet. I can spout the meaningless jibbberish anyone else can but it doesn't mean anything. Oh the void wa so splendid, oh the awakening was so enlightening, oh this that and the other nothing.
It boils down to the fact that we are thrown out like a fishing line by our higher selves, only to be reelled in later and what ever clings to us is to be gleaned by a higher life form, we are still bait.
Sentient bait. That's what I feel like.

konrard
08-05-2011, 11:07 PM
What's the use? We get thrown into this world with no way of knowing what we are. We get grown by egotistical parents into what they want, without any say-so. We get to a point where we can speak for ourselves and what do we do? we quote idiots who wrote books that caught our attention. Then we go on and think we have some idea what is real, but not, it aint happening. In this reality, if you aint rich, you aint nothing. There is no defendable ideaological response to this,you and me, are all wrong. There is no way to understand what life is supposed to be from the ego point of view, there is no way to view life from any other point of view, we are lost and abandoned by everything that might be considered "higher". We, as personalities on the Earth, are temporary and expendable. When we realize this through whatever means we find, we find we are still expendable. Nice. I had hoped that spiritual awareness would yield some kind of comfort, ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,not yet. I can spout the meaningless jibbberish anyone else can but it doesn't mean anything. Oh the void wa so splendid, oh the awakening was so enlightening, oh this that and the other nothing.
It boils down to the fact that we are thrown out like a fishing line by our higher selves, only to be reelled in later and what ever clings to us is to be gleaned by a higher life form, we are still bait.
Sentient bait. That's what I feel like.

would you still feel that way if you knew that you wanted these bad things to happen to you? I mean no offense by this, and obviously on this level you dont want bad things to happen to you but let me ask you this.

Doesn't it make you feel better when you blame a source that is perceived as being outside of yourself?

the truth is we are not thrown out here like a fishing line to be reeled in later. we threw ourselves out here, and that is what the awakening isreally about. You are one hundred percent right, until you experience it, it is JUST words

seeker2011
08-05-2011, 11:42 PM
Of course I know I am the one who threw me out as bait. I know I am that which is my source. I am however, reluctant to admit I dont care much about my sacrificial portion of my self that i throw into the void. Expendable as it is, it is part of me, and I cannot reconcile myh descision to abandon it into the 3d void. Maybe I know i can reclaim it in the future, but it is a sentient part of me, how do I feel comfortable about abandoning it in the void? It is me. I put a part of me in hell. Just to reel in the experience? There must be more.

Roselove
09-05-2011, 12:33 AM
would you still feel that way if you knew that you wanted these bad things to happen to you? I mean no offense by this, and obviously on this level you dont want bad things to happen to you but let me ask you this.

Doesn't it make you feel better when you blame a source that is perceived as being outside of yourself?

the truth is we are not thrown out here like a fishing line to be reeled in later. we threw ourselves out here, and that is what the awakening isreally about. You are one hundred percent right, until you experience it, it is JUST words

I have a hard time believing people chose their lives on a conscious level. Would you conscioulsy chose illness, death of loved ones, rape & abuse down the road? most people wouldn't. I think it's far more complex than that. I think soul contracts are made on an unconscious level/higher self, i say this from personal expierence after attempting to undo them

konrard
09-05-2011, 12:36 AM
I put a part of me in hell. Just to reel in the experience? There must be more.

There is more. There is a reason. I cant just come out and say it because I dont want to go around spouting beliefs which people are unconsciously afraid of and might not be ready for. I also dont want to sound like a know it all or like a teacher authority, because I know thats against the forum rules.

I do know how you can come to the same conclusion though. Keep looking for the answers. Start with the things that don't add up. Start with the feelings that don't add up. Keep an open mind about everything, and trust that everything you are seeing is happening for a reason.

I mean.. this is what is
it isnt just the every day run of the mill "its just life" type of deal
this is what your existence amounts to... but only at this moment

konrard
09-05-2011, 12:38 AM
I have a hard time believing people chose their lives on a conscious level. Would you conscioulsy chose illness, death of loved ones, rape & abuse down the road? most people wouldn't. I think it's far more complex than that. I think soul contracts are made on an unconscious level/higher self, i say this from personal expierence after attempting to undo them

In simple, yes. You may want to believe things are complex, but they really aren't. They are only complex in your mind. In reality, things are very simple.

and I say this from personal experience as well :p

life is suffering, and if we didnt choose for it to be that way, that means we are not free and we are not in control of our destinies

konrard
09-05-2011, 12:45 AM
Of course I know I am the one who threw me out as bait. I know I am that which is my source. I am however, reluctant to admit I dont care much about my sacrificial portion of my self that i throw into the void. Expendable as it is, it is part of me, and I cannot reconcile myh descision to abandon it into the 3d void. Maybe I know i can reclaim it in the future, but it is a sentient part of me, how do I feel comfortable about abandoning it in the void? It is me. I put a part of me in hell. Just to reel in the experience? There must be more.

oh, and dude, i forgot to mention this..

Just the fact that you said that, just the fact that you have come this far in your thinking is a clear sign that you are very close to the truth

you dont get this close to the truth by accident, you get this close to the truth because you are just about ready to remember it

i hope this cheers you up:hug3:

Roselove
09-05-2011, 12:46 AM
Konrad - that's your assesment based solely on your expierences & awareness at this point in time, I think you should keep seeking ;)

konrard
09-05-2011, 12:49 AM
Konrad - that's your assesment based solely on your expierences & awareness at this point in time, I think you should keep seeking ;)

:hug: :hug2:

Mountain-Goat
09-05-2011, 05:19 AM
Konrad - that's your assesment based solely on your expierences & awareness at this point in time, I think you should keep seeking ;)
I'm with Rosewater on this.
My explorations took me over the precipice of death.
Fortunate for me, I did not die.
Yeah sounds so mystical, like how they romanitice things in movies.
But it wasn't. It was extremely painful and scary.
But I found what I was looking for, actually far more than I was searching for.

There is no guarantee a person will find what they are looking for while searching, or how long they have to search.
But if you don't search and explore, you are guaranteed to not find anything.

I'm still awed at the things I am discovering, but oh boy, did I have to go through some hell to find it.

I'm actually going through a rather unusual valley of darkness at the moment.
It ain't fun, but I continue becaus I have experienced breakthroughs before, so the pain I am experiencing at the moment is temporary
and will be transformed into more joy, peace and understanding...and more self empowerment.

psychoslice
09-05-2011, 06:34 AM
:hug: :hug2:
I like reading your stuff you put out there konrard, I think you rock.:blob3:

arive nan
09-05-2011, 07:39 AM
Although many do find some comfort in certain spiritual or mystical experiences, there are also some problems that it can bring up. Actually, it almost always brings up some problems, whether the person is aware of how it is hindering them or not (sometimes people deal with by just ceasing to think about it or basically going into denial, and then of course they don't realize that they aren't as free as they could be because they aren't thinking enough to become aware of that).

These experiences, as wonderful as they can feel for some, raise some very difficult questions. It can be very challenging to find a way to reconcile some of the apparent contradictions that you'll discover if you face these questions instead of avoiding them. But it is possible to re-evaluate the experiences and beliefs and perceptions that seem to contradict each other. It's not easy, but it is possible, and you will have more freedom if you do face these problems to work through them. Those who try to dismiss them so they can consider themselves to be at the end of the journey already are truly stuck unless/until they start to face these things again even though it means going through a lot of discomfort.

I guess what I am saying is that the bright side of this is that you are not completely stuck because you know you still have questions to find answers to. It is painful, but you are more free to keep going than those who think they are already as enlightened as they can be because of some mystical experiences even though they can't explain the contradictions that come up from that because they are ignoring/denying them, which is what so many of the writers of those books do from what I can see.

SunMist
09-05-2011, 09:03 AM
There is no way to understand what life is supposed to be from the ego point of view, there is no way to view life from any other point of view, we are lost and abandoned by everything that might be considered "higher".

Seeker2011, I added the bold to emphasize what I'm responding to - these are big bold statements. Ask yourself, are you sure? 100% sure? If you are, then how are you sure and what is your proof? They say it is impossible to prove a negative. For example some say "there is no God" but how can they prove that?...they can't. So if you are looking for a ray of hope consider that these "no way" statements cannot be proven - there may yet be a way, and you may yet find it if you are open to it. And least you think I'm some pollyanna, I think my higher self was definitely overreaching if it agreed to this lifetime I'm currently living - I hate to think how much repair work I may need by the end of it. The only consolation in it is that this type of lifetime is pushing me into exploring avenues that I never would have if everything had gone typically and smoothly. So if you are living a hellish existence then look for the gold that exists only in hell - make your suffering worthwhile.

Internal Queries
09-05-2011, 01:04 PM
if the universe could care it would shrug with indifference. sometimes i'm like the universe.

konrard
09-05-2011, 05:47 PM
I like reading your stuff you put out there konrard, I think you rock.:blob3:

I have always thought the exact same about you :D :color:

unus supra
09-05-2011, 07:56 PM
now you know for sure its there. indisputable.
its something you can see, feel.

agreed?

now what is it, how does it work,

and how can you fix it.

the first step is knowing its reality, knowing without a doubt that its there and it sucks. there is a cause for everything.

what are the causes that will definitively bring about the opposite result.

in progress
09-05-2011, 08:42 PM
It boils down to the fact that we are thrown out like a fishing line by our higher selves, only to be reelled in later and what ever clings to us is to be gleaned by a higher life form, we are still bait.
Sentient bait. That's what I feel like.
LOL!

Been there! More than once! But I didn't use nice words like "bait" and called my higher self sadistic more than once. I felt more anger than apathy though I've felt both. I feel like a victim sometimes, helpless. And at the same time I hate feeling that way. It's natural, it's part of the process. It cycles. You'll come out and feel great for awhile then something else will work itself to the surface.

I had something new happen today. I had a bad day at work. I made a lot of mistakes which normally depresses me for the rest of the day. Then I had something ****** happen moments after I got home from work. For the first time ever I think... I felt great anyway! I still feel great! Something has happened. Progress! So though you feel like a victim and feel as if you're getting nowhere, it's not true. Patience and being gentle w/ yourself, those are the hardest things sometimes.

TzuJanLi
09-05-2011, 09:10 PM
Greetings..

life is suffering, and if we didnt choose for it to be that way, that means we are not free and we are not in control of our destinies
Life is what you choose it to be, see.. you have chosen poorly.. Life 'is', and 'you' have chosen "suffering" and slavery.. i have chosen 'pure Life', without the preconceptions, and.. we each get what we choose..

Be well..

Prokopton
09-05-2011, 09:17 PM
It's funny... apathy is the only emotion I've never had on my spiritual path. I did choose a path with some drama in it -- kundalini work, with a lot of feelings emotions and experiences. I have been rejuvenated, healed, see the world clearer, made long steps towards being everything I could be. I've been forced to 'live big', make tricky choices, deal with a bit of hell. I've encountered things I wish I'd never known about, and things I thank heaven I do. But apathy? Never.

Maybe if you really think 'meaningless jibbberish' is where most here are at, you need to think about a different kind of practice. Stir things up a bit? Google 'Kundalini Awakening Process'... those guys will make your spiritual life interesting in a big hurry. And they are trustworthy. What they teach works! Wish you the best...

konrard
09-05-2011, 10:44 PM
Greetings..


Life is what you choose it to be, see.. you have chosen poorly.. Life 'is', and 'you' have chosen "suffering" and slavery.. i have chosen 'pure Life', without the preconceptions, and.. we each get what we choose..

Be well..


thank you for your opinion. even if you choose not to see life as suffering, there will always be suffering in this universe and that is hard to ignore. This is because we live in a universe full of separation and lack. we have chosen to project as human beings, we have chosen to become self aware and live in a society ruled by ego. It is possible to have joy in this universe. Definitely. But to ignore our unconscious and root of all lack is not real joy, it is just a temporary cover up.

You have not made a better choice than I have, because you are still ruled by your body, much like I am.

You made the choice to project into this society, much like I did.

all this shows is that you made the same choice I did, no matter how poor you want to call it.

You see, when I say "life is suffering" i am referring to what many people call LIFE. Not what I call life. What I call life has nothing to do with this universe at all.

It is not a help to anyone to just try and act enlightened all the time. None of us would be here in this universe, or on these forums unless we needed healing. These things must be dealt with and not ignored or we will only prolong true enlightenment and we will not be helping any body. In helping others, we are helping ourselves, because we are all one.

unus supra
09-05-2011, 11:11 PM
i overlooked in my previous reply. This higher self you speak of, or your higher nature, is right here.

The unique thing about physicality, what makes it indeed special in terms of its energetic structure is that within the human body, we can harbor a vast potential of states.

Just like on earth there are places of great pleasure and peace so to are there places of immense suffering, all on the same plane. This is so as well with the body.

You wallow in your apathy so you can see what it is, how it works, learn from it, and what causes it, but then like everything else it will pass, and you will grow from it, and this will be incorporated into the very full person that you are right now. Apathy is not the normal state of being.

The human body and our senses are designed to relate very comfortably with the environment. Only in the mind is there suffering. In that, while you may feel pain, or apathy, this will come and go according to its nature, but it is the mind that will latch onto it, and create a vivid storyline

so that you may wallow in your painful romance. Our own special little romantic story.

That is your suffering. Because look, i dont care how much money you have. its your internal state that will distinguish whether you are content or not.

I have driven down the road in a beautiful car, sitting next to a beautiful and loving women, with a full tummy and plenty of cash and been murderously angry, for no good reason.

I have laid in the sun surrounded by so many flies that swatting at them was useless, with a hole in my neck from the spent cartridge of a machine gun, somebodies meat lying on the bushes next to me,

and i was happy as a lark.

Its whats inside. And this takes work. Solid, no bull...t work. This work must lead to insight and inner transformation. there is no room for garbage.

and no body is going to do it for you, you need to determine what is real, what is not and take what you need and discard the rest like the mothe....in plague.

and it IS offered when you get bored of the state you are in. No cliches, no nifty catchphrases or worldviews. No belief to hold onto, because if someone asked you to die for a belief would you? hell no, not worth it.

do the work, and you will have your peace. And in terms of understanding, the final understanding is that it just doesnt matter. no matter what, horrible or beautiful, pleasurable or painful, it just doesnt matter. So what do you choose for YOU.

TzuJanLi
09-05-2011, 11:41 PM
Greetings..

thank you for your opinion. even if you choose not to see life as suffering, there will always be suffering in this universe and that is hard to ignore. This is because we live in a universe full of separation and lack. we have chosen to project as human beings, we have chosen to become self aware and live in a society ruled by ego. It is possible to have joy in this universe. Definitely. But to ignore our unconscious and root of all lack is not real joy, it is just a temporary cover up.

You have not made a better choice than I have, because you are still ruled by your body, much like I am.

You made the choice to project into this society, much like I did.

all this shows is that you made the same choice I did, no matter how poor you want to call it.

You see, when I say "life is suffering" i am referring to what many people call LIFE. Not what I call life. What I call life has nothing to do with this universe at all.

It is not a help to anyone to just try and act enlightened all the time. None of us would be here in this universe, or on these forums unless we needed healing. These things must be dealt with and not ignored or we will only prolong true enlightenment and we will not be helping any body. In helping others, we are helping ourselves, because we are all one.
Listen to your own message.. and, stop telling people 'Life is suffering", because that's the message of another being that thought it was 'enlightened, too.. "what [you] call life has nothing to do with this universe at all", yeah, that's not trying to sound 'enlightened' is it?.. so, keep up the dandy work, those choices are just swell..

Be well..

konrard
10-05-2011, 12:16 AM
Greetings..


Listen to your own message.. and, stop telling people 'Life is suffering", because that's the message of another being that thought it was 'enlightened, too.. "what [you] call life has nothing to do with this universe at all", yeah, that's not trying to sound 'enlightened' is it?.. so, keep up the dandy work, those choices are just swell..

Be well..


no, its really not, its just telling my point of view
if you dont like my point of view, dont listen to it, no one else has to

but you saying that I cant tell people life is suffering is saying that you are right and any other message is not permitted. this is not a good thing. you are obviously not reading anything I am saying, because my claim was the farthest from enlightenment. I just said that you and I both made the same choice, and yet here you are saying that we made different ones and claiming that I feel enlightened?

My message was, and I thought this was obvious, that we are all on the same level and since we are all here on this forum we all are still looking/waiting/practicing for something.

i mentioned trying to sound enlightened because you called my point of view foolish, any thing else? I dont see why you feel the need to keep judging my choices? do you lack confidence in your own?

of course real life is not suffering. but the OP and many other people obviously do believe that. which is why i had to make the distinction between what I did and did NOT call life to YOU who took what I was saying out of context.

many people equate this universe with life, therefore my statement that life IS suffering stands. I never said anyone HAS TO SUFFER, I said LIFE IN THIS UNIVERSE IS FULL OF SUFFERING and that is my opinion. if you dont like it, tell me why, and i will respectfully listen. If you dont want to tell me why, thats cool too. but dont just sit back and tell me its foolish and that you made a better choice. Especially when you haven't the slightest idea of what I'm really trying to say. We need discussions and points, not blank judgements.

all we can do is offer our points of view and opinions Tzu. you are not more special than any body else for your point of view. If someone offers a differing opinion im not going to judge and tell them they are foolish, for that would make me the fool who does not understand.

konrard
10-05-2011, 12:57 AM
When we do not allow the opinions of others and instead judge them as foolish, is where wisdom and truth ends. Not to mention understanding. I did not mean to get this thread off-topic, and I apologize to the OP and anyone else interested in the topic for that.

TzuJanLi
10-05-2011, 02:32 AM
Greetings..

life is suffering, and if we didnt choose for it to be that way, that means we are not free and we are not in control of our destinies
I said LIFE IN THIS UNIVERSE IS FULL OF SUFFERING and that is my opinion.
Hi Konrard: You originally said "life is suffering", not 'life is full of suffering'.. i will offer a contrasting opinion, that we do 'choose suffering', which is evidence of our freewill and our destinies, which changes with each choice we make.. your original statement (see above) is absolute, "Life is Suffering", and as such indicates that people do have to suffer.. your statements are contardictory.
but you saying that I cant tell people life is suffering is saying that you are right and any other message is not permitted..
No, that is not what i am saying, what i am saying is written, just read it.. you can say whatever you please, and i can disagree as i please, and.. the signature line at the bottom of my posts is sincere, what i post is 'true for me', it becomes so when i experience it as such.. Life is so much more than choosing to believe it is suffering, experience has revealed that truth to me.. Buddha' chose to believe 'Life is suffering', and influences others to make that choice, too.. 'That' is one's loss of freedom, letting others tell them what to choose.. this is your interpretation, that "LIfe is suffering", and.. i am speaking from my experience, that Life is so much more than that..
i mentioned trying to sound enlightened because you called my point of view foolish, any thing else?
I did not use the word 'fool' or "foolish", you have 'chosen' those words to make your case and describe how my words made you feel.. i said, "you have chosen poorly", and that is my opinion.. i'm not "trying to sound enlightened", i am presenting a contrasting opinion to yours.. i do this because the result of creating the illusion of no freewill or no choice, also creates obstacles for others seeking to understand their existence.. i do this because to say "Life is suffering" fails to present the whole experience, it only presents the part you have chosen..
dont just sit back and tell me its foolish and that you made a better choice. Especially when you haven't the slightest idea of what I'm really trying to say
Again, i did not say anything is "foolish", that is your choice of words, not mine.. i did not say i made a "better choice", i described the choice i made.. please read the words i posted.. i read the words you posted, if you want to say something different then say what you're "really trying to say"..
all we can do is offer our points of view and opinions Tzu. you are not more special than any body else for your point of view. If someone offers a differing opinion im not going to judge and tell them they are foolish, for that would make me the fool who does not understand.
I didn't use any reference to fool or foolish, and now.. maybe we can get to some real issues..
None of us would be here in this universe, or on these forums unless we needed healing.
Why do you believe that? Where would we be?
I said LIFE IN THIS UNIVERSE IS FULL OF SUFFERING
It seems that that is what you wish you had said, why do you think that "the universe is full of suffering"? i suppose we should define suffering, first, though.. what is your belief abouth the meaning of the word 'suffering'?

I am willing to have productive discussions, and i am hopeful that we can, but.. i am also going to point-out inconsistencies where i see them.. and i will defend everyone's inalienable right to choose their own destiny, regardless of how few are willing to actually do it.. i will identify injustice or deception when i see it, and i hope we can resolve such issues.. i am hopeful that you do me the same honor, that you will offer me the same level of scrutiny and back-up your claims with the same level of verifiable evidence as i am willing to..

Be well..

konrard
10-05-2011, 03:06 AM
stop telling people 'Life is suffering"

Originally Posted by konrard
but you saying that I cant tell people life is suffering is saying that you are right and any other message is not permitted..


No, that is not what i am saying, what i am saying is written, just read it..

You're right, you didn't say foolish, you said that I had chosen poorly and told me not to tell people my point of view. I am sorry for getting a little heated. Some times I remember things wrong. ^__^

You originally said "life is suffering", not 'life is full of suffering'.. i will offer a contrasting opinion, that we do 'choose suffering', which is evidence of our freewill and our destinies, which changes with each choice we make.. your original statement (see above) is absolute, "Life is Suffering", and as such indicates that people do have to suffer.. your statements are contardictory.

What I meant by life is suffering is that there will always be suffering in this universe. If people define this universe as life I am speaking to those people. Life can not have suffering in it and not possess the characteristic of suffering. It may not be suffering by you, or others. But there will always be someone in this universe suffering as long as it exists. This is because we are projecting the universe. Since there is fear present in the universe, I come to the conclusion that it is not a love-based projection, which is what I believe we are.

this is your interpretation, that "LIfe is suffering", and.. i am speaking from my experience, that Life is so much more than that..

And I have repeated, many times. That I agree with you. Real life is not suffering! It was what many perceive life to be that is suffering. How can me just telling someone that life is more than suffering help them unless they understand why they are suffering in the first place? Like I all ready said, I am trying to help, not just show how much I know.
What was meant by my original statement is that if you don't understand all of the above, life is suffering. this was made apparent by all my other posts.


It seems that that is what you wish you had said, why do you think that "the universe is full of suffering"? i suppose we should define suffering, first, though.. what is your belief abouth the meaning of the word 'suffering'?

i think that the universe is full of suffering because i do not deny that my brothers and sisters, who are truly me, perceive they are suffering in it. Its that simple.

I would also like to add I'm not a scientific verifiable evidence kind of guy. The kind of evidence I have took me years to build up. How can I say that with words? If nothing else at least respect my viewpoint and don't look down upon it as poor. I feel rich. not poor. I have no need to see your viewpoint as poor, because I know you are also rich.

and I will not subject you to scrutiny because I have no need for it. I know what the truth is, and I know the truth can only be experienced. It is inside your self, not out in the world.

ALSO: what I mean by "suffering" is any experience that you are suffering. the experience may not be real, and it may be in all in your head. but all i mean by suffering is there is a perception of suffering being experienced.

This is what was meant by the Buddha, and no Im not saying the Buddha knew it all. But all he was trying to say was that there is suffering present here in this universe.

konrard
10-05-2011, 03:15 AM
I am willing to have productive discussions, and i am hopeful that we can, but.. i am also going to point-out inconsistencies where i see them.. and i will defend everyone's inalienable right to choose their own destiny, regardless of how few are willing to actually do it.. i will identify injustice or deception when i see it, and i hope we can resolve such issues.. i am hopeful that you do me the same honor, that you will offer me the same level of scrutiny and back-up your claims with the same level of verifiable evidence as i am willing to..

I do not see where I made any inconsistency taking all of my posts together. I was telling OP that he did not have to suffer. So why would you think that my post "life is suffering" was so absolute?

I try to just share my own methods of helping, not judge others'
if I am confident with my own beliefs, that is all I need, its like "The network" said in Roshambo - "my own belief's inside my head"

but I do thank you for being mature about this and being productive. I respect that. Reading your posts open me up to a lot of things and I am willing defend your right to speak your mind with my life as well.

surrendertotheflow
10-05-2011, 03:37 AM
I do not see where I made any inconsistency taking all of my posts together. I was telling OP that he did not have to suffer. So why would you think that my post "life is suffering" was so absolute?

but I do thank you for being mature about this and being productive. I respect that. Reading your posts open me up to a lot of things and I am willing defend your right to speak your mind with my life as well.

I understand what you are trying to say konrard. I believe that you both have great viewpoints and i honor your differences :smile:

After reading your last post, it reminds me of Buddhism's 4 Noble Truths:
Suffering does exist (Life IS suffering)
Suffering arises from attachment to desires (There is a reason for our suffering)
Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases (There is a way out of suffering)
Freedom from suffering is possible by practising the Eightfold Path (that way is to practice virtues, non-harming, loving, whether that be the Buddhist 8-fold path or your own path)

That is the beauty of this website I believe. We all share a great deal of beliefs and viewpoints, and we also don't. But we all believe in love and light and being kind. It's wonderful :hug3:

Internal Queries
10-05-2011, 03:38 AM
lol sheesh! you guys are making something so simple so complicated. living things feel. living things feel a variety of sensations, one the most common being "pain". i've cared for many injured animals and other critters don't get into long debates over the "meaning" of their pain. they simply endure it and go on with the business of healing, if they can. and if they can't and they die they don't make a huge drama about that either. we humans, though, we have to make a big deal out of everything, everything has to have some esorteric reason, some hidden mystery. lol and most of the time things just are the way they are and there's no big mystery about it.

surrendertotheflow
10-05-2011, 03:42 AM
lol sheesh! you guys are making something so simple so complicated. living things feel. living things feel a variety of sensations, one the most common being "pain". i've cared for many injured animals and other critters don't get into long debates over the "meaning" of their pain. they simply endure it and go on with the business of healing, if they can. and if they can't and they die they don't make a huge drama about that either. we humans, though, we have to make a big deal out of everything, everything has to have some esorteric reason, some hidden mystery. lol and most of the time things just are the way they are and there's no big mystery about it.

I value your insight IQ :D thanks for sharing
We Humans put ourselves up on the pedestals far too often

Mountain-Goat
12-05-2011, 04:02 AM
Me likes what you have said arive..and here's some synchro...
This morning I have begun reading The Portable Jung.
There's an observation by Jung that is remarkably similar to what you have shared.
Great minds think alike, yes ? I think so.

Although many do find some comfort in certain spiritual or mystical experiences, there are also some problems that it can bring up. Actually, it almost always brings up some problems, whether the person is aware of how it is hindering them or not (sometimes people deal with by just ceasing to think about it or basically going into denial, and then of course they don't realize that they aren't as free as they could be because they aren't thinking enough to become aware of that).

These experiences, as wonderful as they can feel for some, raise some very difficult questions. It can be very challenging to find a way to reconcile some of the apparent contradictions that you'll discover if you face these questions instead of avoiding them. But it is possible to re-evaluate the experiences and beliefs and perceptions that seem to contradict each other. It's not easy, but it is possible, and you will have more freedom if you do face these problems to work through them. Those who try to dismiss them so they can consider themselves to be at the end of the journey already are truly stuck unless/until they start to face these things again even though it means going through a lot of discomfort.

I guess what I am saying is that the bright side of this is that you are not completely stuck because you know you still have questions to find answers to. It is painful, but you are more free to keep going than those who think they are already as enlightened as they can be because of some mystical experiences even though they can't explain the contradictions that come up from that because they are ignoring/denying them, which is what so many of the writers of those books do from what I can see.

seeker2011
12-05-2011, 08:33 PM
Thanks for all your insights.
I think what I'm calling apathy is an exaggerated response from ego, who realizes he can't be more interested in a world he finds becoming less real (as in eternal). It will probably last a long time. But I'll say it again: It is quite comforting to read other peoples thoughts about the same things I experience.

arive nan
13-05-2011, 03:10 AM
I'm glad you were able to find some comfort seeker.

AC, I have not read Jung's writings about this matter directly.. yet. But you inspired me to search some of them down on the web :).

Mountain-Goat
17-05-2011, 02:36 AM
Thanks for all your insights.
I think what I'm calling apathy is an exaggerated response from ego, who realizes he can't be more interested in a world he finds becoming less real (as in eternal). It will probably last a long time. But I'll say it again: It is quite comforting to read other peoples thoughts about the same things I experience.
The inner journey of self discovery is long.
Enjoy the positives you discover about yourself.
Heal the negatives you discover.
In everything you do, be compassionate, patient, gentle but productively firm with oneself.( all attributes of loving oneself)

Mountain-Goat
17-05-2011, 02:42 AM
I'm glad you were able to find some comfort seeker.

AC, I have not read Jung's writings about this matter directly.. yet. But you inspired me to search some of them down on the web :).
I heard he was very much into exploring the 'spiritual' aspects of reality when exploring the human psyche, whereas his peers were not.

I've only read 60 odd pages, no evaluations of his theories as yet, but I am enjoying our time together so far.