Suffering ... open discussion

[sound]

One school of thought tells us that suffering is necessary in order for us to grow and to learn through life's oftentimes harsh lessons.

Another tells us that it has no purpose and can be avoided if we are evolved enough spiritually ...

And then there is the belief that it is simply a misdirection of creative energy and that its only purpose, if it has one, is to teach us not to suffer ...

What are your thoughts, insights and understandings surrounding 'suffering' ...



Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:

[Scibat]

One school of thought tells us that suffering is necessary in order for us to grow and to learn through life's oftentimes harsh lessons.

Another tells us that it has no purpose and can be avoided if we are evolved enough spiritually ...

And then there is the belief that it is simply a misdirection of creative energy and that its only purpose, if it has one, is to teach us not to suffer ...

What are your thoughts, insights and understandings surrounding 'suffering' ...



Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:

I think there are too many factors to suffering to put it into tidy boxes as to why we suffer. Why do children suffer? Why do truly good people suffer? Why do evil people not suffer? I think its just too complex to answer with any one school of thought or philosophy.

[Silver]

We should ask a Chaotician (sp?). I agree w/scibat's assessment.

As Forest says "it happens" {y'know I can't say it, lol}.

[seeker2011]

I read somewhere that the Buddha said "all life is suffering, what matters is how you deal with it".
I think all 3d life is suffering, since all the other levels of existance seem to be free from "deadly" threats. So it would seem to me that suffering is the result of being born into the 3d life. Is it a theater of learning? Is suffering the only way to turn a consciousness into itself, to look for meaning? Probably. But who decided it make it that? and WHy? I dont have any idea. It probably enhances the reality of the learning in some way.

[seeker2011]

My last post was from ego.
This one is from a higher form of consciousness:

Suffering exists to offer an opportunity to show/find out/ how

honestly you believe what you
claim to believe.

[Enya]

It is true that you learn a lot from suffering. It is also true that you learn alot from not suffering. It might be argued that you learn more from the former or at least on a deeper level. I think you have to go thru some suffering in order to remember that you don't need to go thru it... lol.
I'm with the Buddha on this one.

[raphael]

I think it is a necessary thing at some points of your developement - even Christ didn't skip it. Some people grow spiritually mainly by suffering (a powerful method according to me) but it isn't the only way, of course.
If you are wise enought and don't have much karma no suffer except "a big exam from above" must reach you :icon_confused:

[Silver]

It's merely my personal belief, how does one 'skip it' it's like saying people choose to get cancer or a cold even. Or get in a car accident or get robbed, raped, spindled, mutilated, I'm fairly certain the majority of us aren't looking to get these things to happen to us. Even subconsciously, for me anyway, very doubtful.

[raphael]

It's merely my personal belief, how does one 'skip it' it's like saying people choose to get cancer or a cold even. Or get in a car accident or get robbed, raped, spindled, mutilated, I'm fairly certain the majority of us aren't looking to get these things to happen to us. Even subconsciously, for me anyway, very doubtful.
In this case it's karma and often you choose to be born like that. What I ment about the Saviour is that he had to suffer for our sins and like him, when we get to higher level we'll suffer for the good of all

[Silver]

So, it's a buddhist belief that we choose our lives or parents and stuff like that?

[konrard]

suffering to me is an experience we must go through and that we are at the cause of

suffering to me, is not an effect, it is something we are causing

going through it right now, is simply equivalent to your body going through symptoms when it gets sick. its there to show you that somethings wrong. it is caused by fear based thoughts.

imo.

[raphael]

So, it's a buddhist belief that we choose our lives or parents and stuff like that?

I am no sure if i understood your relation to buddhism correctly but can tell you this:
If my heart agrees with something i don't care about it's source.

[Silver]

But where does this come from? I never grew up hearing about people choosing their suffering, until I came to this forum. Never heard of it anywhere else, so the whole idea is quite foreign to me.

[konrard]

the only way you can actually suffer is if you believe you are separate from your Source

and it comes from experiencing that we are not separate from our source at all and that all pain and suffering is an illusion

take your quote for example: how could one not know the light of their own being unless they chose to forget? could you not know something about yourself in this life unless you chose to forget?

[Silver]

Tell that to someone who just got crushed in a car accident or other painful experiences. My grandmother was a diabetic and she had both legs amputated above the knee late in her life. What about a child with diabetes? Or any other genetic disease, or deformity? You mean people choose that?

[raphael]

But where does this come from? I never grew up hearing about people choosing their suffering, until I came to this forum. Never heard of it anywhere else, so the whole idea is quite foreign to me.
In this sence it is related to eastern religions, yes.
What i can tell you is that i think (i sure!) that when you die and understand what you have done and what not in this life. If you still have to learn in the material world or you have too much karma you may be given the opportunity to choose the way you pay (not among very nice options, of course).
Example: You have been a drug diller in this life and ruined the life of your friend X.. In your next life you may choose( or will be obliged) to be X.'s parent and take care him; and X. may have some body mutation in order to pay for taking drugs.
Sorry for the negativism.

[konrard]

On a higher level, yes.

Also, it has been scientifically proven that everything in the universe is just energy in a low vibrational state.

So which is the truth, what you are experiencing, or what you can prove? Cant you also suffer in your dreams at night? What if you knew you were dreaming, then would you still be suffering? Who is to say which is more real, life or a dream? Feelings and perceptions are just electrical impulses directed towards your brain arent they?

so your body is like a computer, but who is the programmer? and how much control does it have.

[zipzip]

I personally, don't understand suffering or why we have to go through it.

I think some people believe in Law of Attraction, where if you think of something (example: if you think enough of getting run over by a heard of stampeding elephants( or that is your biggest fear) , you will get run over by a heard of stampeding elephants--you attract it) or in a past life you did something bad and in this life you have to pay the price.

I don't believe in any of those theories. But I cannot explain suffering or bad things. I think there are some things that just don't have an answer



zipzip

[raphael]

On a higher level, yes.

Also, it has been scientifically proven that everything in the universe is just energy in a low vibrational state.

So which is the truth, what you are experiencing, or what you can prove? Cant you also suffer in your dreams at night? What if you knew you were dreaming, then would you still be suffering? Who is to say which is more real, life or a dream? Feelings and perceptions are just electrical impulses directed towards your brain arent they?

so your body is like a computer, but who is the programmer? and how much control does it have.
:hello2:
Our lives are nothing but draming - untill you awake your counciousness :icon_frown:

[psychoslice]

There are many who are addicted to their suffering, without their suffering they have no identity, you see it throughout the forum, throughout the world, their the self proclaimed victims. When we go against the flow of life we suffer, death, either to a child or an elderly person is still life, of course we have emotions when these things happen, but its when we try to stop the flow of life and make our camp within the emotions that suffering continues.

[Silver]

I don't recall suffering in my dreams, not like in real life so isn't this just another religion telling us what's what instead of allowing us the freedom of experiencing it for our own selves? And calling things as we experience them? It seems like there's less likelihood of this being proven than anything else.

[konrard]

well, haven't you had the experience that your dreams were real life? i have talked to many people who have shared this common dream attribute with me.

maybe the reason you don't suffer in your dreams is because you are fearless in your dreams

which goes back to my point that if you were fearless in real life, you would have no suffering - because many people perceive their dreams as being real

and i don't subscribe to religion
i resign to the truth

[Silver]

and i don't subscribe to religion
i resign to the truth__________________


So you're trying to tell everybody that you've never suffered (once you became resigned to the truth?) I really am trying to understand how this works.

[konrard]

I never once claimed that status for my current experience

I never claimed to have eliminated fear

I only claimed that fear was the root of all suffering

You don't need to believe me, I'm just offering an idea, my beliefs do not require you to believe in them friend :)

[Miss Hepburn]

Ah, suffering.

The essence of the Nature of Suffering...

All of the above showed insight.

I once experienced True Agony - it was a supernatural Gift.

Within a split second it turned to Ecstasy and back again many times.

I don't thnk it could be truly discussed without the element of Paradox;

Existence, life, death, the Great Observer, the One Consciousness.



Life is an Epic Story.
Would you want to only watch romantic comedies for eternity or would you want to watch an Epic Tale of romance, lost loves, war,
damsels saved, family tragedies and triumphs?

One must delve into the Mind of God.

Hosea 6:6 paraphrased ... "I want your steadfast love...not burnt offerings ... the knowledge of God...not sacrifices."

Nice topic Sound...:hug2:

[Silver]

*I'm not trying to believe as you believe, I simply want to understand it as a separate concept to file away, lol. Nobody should allow the next person to lead them around by the nose, but I'm merely curious and want to know how you believe what YOU believe and how you came to believe it, lol! We weren't talking about fear we were talking about suffering.

[Scibat]

The whole suffering due to karma thing is where I have a problem. Meaning no disrespect to those that believe in it, but please explain to me this:

A child who gets cancer at an age where they are too young to understand what is even wrong with them (Say 2-3 years old, and yes it does happen.) is suffering because of karma? That seems very unjust and cruel to me. The person suffering because of their karma has no clue what for or why they are being punished and will likely die just as clueless as when they came into the world.

[konrard]

Ah, suffering.

The essence of the Nature of Suffering...

All of the above showed insight.

I once experienced True Agony - it was a supernatural Gift.

Within a split second it turned to Ecstasy and back again many times.

I don't thnk it could be truly discussed without the element of Paradox;

Existence, life, death, the Great Observer, the One Consciousness.



Life is an Epic Story.
Would you want to only watch romantic comedies for eternity or would you want to watch an Epic Tale of romance, lost loves, war,
damsels saved, family tradgedies and triumphs?

One must delve into the Mind of God.

Hosea 6:6 paraphrased ... "I want your steadfast love...not burnt offerings ... the knowledge of God...not sacrifices."

Nice topic Sound...:hug2:


I cant help but to smile when I read this :tongue:

[konrard]

*I'm not trying to believe as you believe, I simply want to understand it as a separate concept to file away, lol. Nobody should allow the next person to lead them around by the nose, but I'm merely curious and want to know how you believe what YOU believe and how you came to believe it, lol! We weren't talking about fear we were talking about suffering.

Right, and my point was that fear is the root of all suffering, which has to do with suffering.

I wasnt trying to say that you were trying to believe me :tongue: you just seemed a little miffed by what i was stating lol

and like I said before.. where this comes from is: the experience that you are not separate from your source, and that all pain is an illusion

or were you asking where my idea about the fear thing came from? hang on

the fear thing came from a lot of things. which all finally merged together like puzzle pieces. i never suffered as a child when i was fearless. as i was growing up, i learned how to fear everything, and forgot how to love everything. the only two emotions we are capable of is fear and love. if you do not fear being separate from your source, there is no suffering

[Silver]

Right, and my point was that fear is the root of all suffering, which has to do with suffering.

I wasnt trying to say that you were trying to believe me :tongue: you just seemed a little miffed by what i was stating lol

and like I said before.. where this comes from is: the experience that you are not separate from your source, and that all pain is an illusion

or were you asking where my idea about the fear thing came from? hang on


uh ok I'll wait.:tongue: :hug:

[konrard]

edited post. didnt know if you would notice. :tongue: :hug:

[Miss Hepburn]

I cant help but to smile when I read this :tongue:
Go ahead...:D

May I add something that changed the course of my life -again off the top:

Jeremiah-29?

Let he that is rich not boast of his riches, and let he that is strong not boast of his strength, nor he that is wise boast of his wisdom. But he who must boast,
let him boast of this - that he knows and understands me. So says the Lord.



This is the only way we can understand anything.
And guides my life.

[Miss Hepburn]

the only way you can actually suffer is if you believe you are separate from your Source



Bingo.


Everyone has such rich posts!!!!!

[OceanWaves19161]

Suffering is Ascension. Need I say any more;)

[aser's homie]

One mole fell in a hole, and never was the same since.
Another mole now twixt victim of argument, never was the same since.
One mole got so lonely that mole became bursurk, never was the same since.

Something happens and here go our o'l good and glorious arsenal of emotions out of the bunny's hat of pocket.

Something happens and poor o'l aunt Jemima has to start naming names unto who done it.

A poor pis-sy person aggrevates and here go all an scenario of repertua of our own "pros and cons, right and wrongs and in betweens.

Someone doesn't like us, and here poor o'l me with my saluted respected defensive egos start to flare.

And then the 'I didn't do anything' start to match up in the end. The fast ball of if only inconsideration would not occur then 'poor o'l me' wouldn't have been incourageable. But no, we have to insist as if we are 'mending a wrong' with our defensive notions, but no, weeks pass and we can just bow our poor heads because we thought we just 'served justice'. But no, the wheel spoken life can repeat, but if only we unstressfully cooperated and unstressfully flung our crazy-nitched-egos out the window..

[konrard]

One mole fell in a hole, and never was the same since.
Another mole now twixt victim of argument, never was the same since.
One mole got so lonely that mole became bursurk, never was the same since.

Something happens and here go our o'l good and glorious arsenal of emotions out of the bunny's hat of pocket.

Something happens and poor o'l aunt Jemima has to start naming names unto who done it.

A poor pis-sy person aggrevates and here go all an scenario of repertua of our own "pros and cons, right and wrongs and in betweens.

Someone doesn't like us, and here poor o'l me with my saluted respected defensive egos start to flare.

And then the 'I didn't do anything' start to match up in the end. The fast ball of if only inconsideration would not occur then 'poor o'l me' wouldn't have been incourageable. But no, we have to insist as if we are 'mending a wrong' with our defensive notions, but no, weeks pass and we can just bow our poor heads because we thought we just 'served justice'. But no, the wheel spoken life can repeat, but if only we unstressfully cooperated and unstressfully flung our crazy-nitched-egos out the window..
:confused: what?

[aser's homie]

then problem solved, konrard.

[konrard]

then problem solved, konrard.

I didn't have a problem. I was just wondering what your point was.

[aser's homie]

Just a wisper, understanding solved.

[Jules]

Personally, I do feel we choose the path we're on in which case we choose to experience the pain and suffering throughout life. It enhances compassion, integrity, truth, trust and honesty. It helps in overcoming our fears. The way I see it is we have two choices in life - to either sink or swim. Face the fear and swim or walk round with victim on your head and experience hell. It's all about attitude and acceptance, simple as that in my book.

[athribiristan]

I think its all about how you choose to view it. I could easily choose to be suffering right now. I certainly have enough 'reasons' to choose suffering, but really I know that if I take on the role of victim I give up my power. Sometimes I go back and forth through the day. I look at my situation from one perspective and everything seems fine, then I shift perspective and my life looks like a mess. I think Buddha was right, suffering is there all the time begging for us to experience it. The difference is in how we deal with it.

[Jules]

Yep, agreed Athribiristan. I DID choose to suffer for quite a while and couldn't do it any longer. So, took the victim sign off the head and life's opportunities have opened up massively. It's a wondeful feeling let me tell ya! :D

[surrendertotheflow]

My favorite quote on suffering and pain:

Overcome any bitterness that may have come because you were not up to the magnitude of pain that was entrusted to you.

Like the mother of the world who carries the pain of the world in her heart, each one of us is part of her heart, and therefore endowed with a certain measure of cosmic pain.

You are sharing in the totality of that pain. You are called upon to meet it in joy instead of self pity.

[Silver]

My favorite quote on suffering and pain:

Overcome any bitterness that may have come because you were not up to the magnitude of pain that was entrusted to you.

Like the mother of the world who carries the pain of the world in her heart, each one of us is part of her heart, and therefore endowed with a certain measure of cosmic pain.

You are sharing in the totality of that pain. You are called upon to meet it in joy instead of self pity.


I surely rez with those, where did they come from?

[Roselove]

suffering isn't necesary for growth it actually throws us off alignment with higher self creates ego, fears etc but is a healthy, psychological and biological response to difficult external circumstances. Growth/learning is really through expanding our awareness

[surrendertotheflow]

I surely rez with those, where did they come from?

Well it's all one quote, and I'm not sure who it's by. It is in a book I downloaded off of Buddhanet on the 8-fold path. I'm sure they quote who said it, so I will dig it out later and find out for you :D

[Gem]

Some experiences are really pleasant and other experiences are pretty awful, so we just call unpleasent experience 'suffering' as a generalization.

[athribiristan]

But where does this come from? I never grew up hearing about people choosing their suffering, until I came to this forum. Never heard of it anywhere else, so the whole idea is quite foreign to me.

It comes from the idea that we create our own reality. This is alluded to in concepts like the Law of Attraction and prayer but never really delved into. The thing is people widely accept that we can use our thoughts to create what we desire, but what they fail to mention/accept is that we can't not create our reality. You can't turn it off, you are constantly creating and if you are not doing it concsiously you may be surprised by what you end up with. Honestly, although I have known this for many years, I don't think I have ever heard anyone talk about this in any detail, not surprising that you've never heard of it. I'm not really sure where the idea came from originally, but I have come to see it as the mechanism by which the universe is created from moment to moment.

[BlueSky]

One school of thought tells us that suffering is necessary in order for us to grow and to learn through life's oftentimes harsh lessons.

Another tells us that it has no purpose and can be avoided if we are evolved enough spiritually ...

And then there is the belief that it is simply a misdirection of creative energy and that its only purpose, if it has one, is to teach us not to suffer ...

What are your thoughts, insights and understandings surrounding 'suffering' ...



Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:

My thoughts are that most thoughts about suffering are carried over from Eastern thought/religion.
I wonder how we would answer your questions if we had never heard or read some of these thoughts.
James

[sound]

My thoughts are that most thoughts about suffering are carried over from Eastern thought/religion.
I wonder how we would answer your questions if we had never heard or read some of these thoughts.
James

Hi James

yes ... after submitting the OP i did consider including the often accepted relationship between suffering and the idea of karma, however as i read through the posts i realized it emerged very early in the responses so i decided i didn't need to edit ...

[sound]

My thoughts are that most thoughts about suffering are carried over from Eastern thought/religion.
I wonder how we would answer your questions if we had never heard or read some of these thoughts.
James

Maybe our responses would be a little closer to home do you think ... we may answer from a more 'local' perspective if that makes sense. Maybe eastern philosophy has helped us in one sense to see the big picture or do you think the opposite has occurred. I am in new territory here so thanks for the thought provoking question ... :hug3:

[athribiristan]

Yep, agreed Athribiristan. I DID choose to suffer for quite a while and couldn't do it any longer. So, took the victim sign off the head and life's opportunities have opened up massively. It's a wondeful feeling let me tell ya! :D

Good for you Jules. I played the suffering game too, but decided it was no fun. Now I play this new game called Universal Love. I'm still learning the rules but I already like it a LOT more. :D

[athribiristan]

My thoughts are that most thoughts about suffering are carried over from Eastern thought/religion.
I wonder how we would answer your questions if we had never heard or read some of these thoughts.
James

Interesting, I can't be sure but I think my answer would not change. I base all my answers off of personal experience and nothing more. I may throw in a random quote now and then but never if I haven't tested something for myself.

[BlueSky]

Maybe our responses would be a little closer to home do you think ... we may answer from a more 'local' perspective if that makes sense. Maybe eastern philosophy has helped us in one sense to see the big picture or do you think the opposite has occurred. I am in new territory here so thanks for the thought provoking question ... :hug3:

I always like to wonder how we would look at any subject as if we were born on a desert island.....lol
Eastern thought is more than thought and philosophy...it is their culture/their way of life. They don't decide to understand what they do like we do, they are born and raised in it.
Kind of like being Catholic if you were raised one like I was.
In answer to your question........i think they bring us the opportunity for a balanced perspective on such things and life makes sure that we stay balanced.
For example, karma is interesting to consider but everytime I drive by a dead squirrel in the road I am humbled on the subject and therefore out it aside.
To think the squirrel deserved to be run over or agreed to be run over seems proposterous to me.

[BlueSky]

Interesting, I can't be sure but I think my answer would not change. I base all my answers off of personal experience and nothing more. I may throw in a random quote now and then but never if I haven't tested something for myself.

I hear you but my experience is that our personal experience is flavored by what we hold to be true in our minds.
I think it best to go thru life viewing ones expereinces as expereinces not as expereince...............but thats me. :smile:

[Gem]

perhap there is no 'why' there is suffering, it could be nothing more than an unpleasant experience which happens. I mean, that's what does happen...

[BlueSky]

perhap there is no 'why' there is suffering, it could be nothing more than an unpleasant experience which happens. I mean, that's what does happen...

I agree that in a general sense maybe there are no why's (maybe there are...lol) I do know, or seem to know, that in not so general senses there are many reasons why we suffer....................for example stress can cause sickness or not eating right can cause problems with health.

[Gem]

I agree that in a general sense maybe there are no why's (maybe there are...lol) I do know, or seem to know, that in not so general senses there are many reasons why we suffer....................for example stress can cause sickness or not eating right can cause problems with health.

There are reasons why, like the reason the bike stays up is forces of the spinning wheel. The reason I suffer is the hammer striking my thumb.

[BlueSky]

There are reasons why, like the reason the bike stays up is forces of the spinning wheel. The reason I suffer is the hammer striking my thumb.

Good point and if we think about it, even the fact hat stress causes sickness is part of a universal principle that stress causes sickness.
But I'm bringing up suffering in this thread, happening for reasons like, we agreed to our sufferings or that we deserve them for our higher good because of past life choices.

[blackfellawhitefella]

... we agreed to our sufferings or that we deserve them for our higher good because of past life choices.

i file that under ... justice expressing It's S/elf.

[Internal Queries]

pain is part of our survival mechanism. pain tells us when something is amiss so naturally all i learn from pain is how to avoid it, what i might do to mitigate or endure it when avoiding it isn't an option.

i don't believe in pre-life choices or in past life karma. i believe feces occurs and we deal with it the best we can. and maybe how we deal with pain has something to do with something ... if character references are important.

[Gem]

Good point and if we think about it, even the fact hat stress causes sickness is part of a universal principle that stress causes sickness.
But I'm bringing up suffering in this thread, happening for reasons like, we agreed to our sufferings or that we deserve them for our higher good because of past life choices.

I think it's doubtful we could establish any accuracy there... I guess people believe such things having conformed to eastern ideologies.

[BlueSky]

i file that under ... justice expressing It's S/elf.

Ha! My File folder has it filed under a slightly different heading........
It's filed under "B" and "S" with a question mark.....LOL

[Gem]

pain is part of our survival mechanism. pain tells us when something is amiss so naturally all i learn from pain is how to avoid it, what i might do to mitigate or endure it when it avoiding it isn't an option.

i don't believe in pre-life choices or in past life karma. i believe feces occurs and we deal with it the best we can. and maybe how we deal with pain has something to do with something ... if character references are important.

regardless of theories or beliefs about it... that's the reality we deal with. Thanks.

[blackfellawhitefella]

Behaviours and Synchronicities ? :smile:

[surrendertotheflow]

Good point and if we think about it, even the fact hat stress causes sickness is part of a universal principle that stress causes sickness.
But I'm bringing up suffering in this thread, happening for reasons like, we agreed to our sufferings or that we deserve them for our higher good because of past life choices.


I agree :D
I believe that every single thought bubble, intention, action, etc... has a cause and effect. Stress leads to sickness is a great example.

I also believe that pain is just a word like suffering that we have used to perceive the un-pleasantries in our human life. If you look at all the joy and sadness, the pain and the pleasure, the hurt and the healed, from a neutral standpoint, then it's all just happening. There doesn't have to be any suffering unless we decide to call it that :cool:

[Internal Queries]

I agree :D
I believe that every single thought bubble, intention, action, etc... has a cause and effect. Stress leads to sickness is a great example.

I also believe that pain is just a word like suffering that we have used to perceive the un-pleasantries in our human life. If you look at all the joy and sadness, the pain and the pleasure, the hurt and the healed, from a neutral standpoint, then it's all just happening. There doesn't have to be any suffering unless we decide to call it that :cool:


lol you could call the experiencing of pain/suffering "sloberteekal" and it would feel the same. a broken leg by any other name is still a broken leg. lol

[BlueSky]

I agree :D
I believe that every single thought bubble, intention, action, etc... has a cause and effect. Stress leads to sickness is a great example.

I also believe that pain is just a word like suffering that we have used to perceive the un-pleasantries in our human life. If you look at all the joy and sadness, the pain and the pleasure, the hurt and the healed, from a neutral standpoint, then it's all just happening. There doesn't have to be any suffering unless we decide to call it that :cool:

I dunno..........I have heard this line of thinking before and I say that if they were giving out 'eternal life' prizes for being able to look at suffering while calling it something else .........than I must say "have a nice eternity" cuz i don't want to be that way. Kinda robotic to me, not much humanity in it.
I'd rather deal with the suffering and call it what it is. :smile:
James

[bbr]

There doesn't have to be any suffering unless we decide to call it that :cool:A convenient new-age outlook, I must say. We don't have to deal with all that nasty, uncomfortable suffering in the world, which allows us more time to explore all the cool spiritual stuff. :cool: :wink:

[Internal Queries]

the world is full of "sloberteekal".

[surrendertotheflow]

I dunno..........I have heard this line of thinking before and I say that if they were giving out 'eternal life' prizes for being able to look at suffering while calling it something else .........than I must say "have a nice eternity" cuz i don't want to be that way. Kinda robotic to me, not much humanity in it.
I'd rather deal with the suffering and call it what it is. :smile:
James


I see what you are saying, and I agree with this as well. Not only robotic, but very difficult to do. I still have pain and suffering, and I choose to call it that :wink: But I do believe it is something we have been conditioned to believe as humans. We get to experience amazing bliss and happiness and success, but none of that comes without the idea of failure, sadness, etc... We cannot have the good without the bad, but therefore I also believe that if you look at it from a neutral standpoint, there is no good or bad, not much humanity in it, no, but spirituality, yes.

It's all just part of the divine game we keep playing :smile:

[surrendertotheflow]

lol you could call the experiencing of pain/suffering "sloberteekal" and it would feel the same. a broken leg by any other name is still a broken leg. lol

a broken leg, is a broken leg. ABSOLUTELY. We have evidence of that when we see the broken bone. But where is the evidence of suffering? Who's to say you are suffering when your leg is broken?

Ram Dass tells a wonderful story called "you never know"
you can find it on youtube. I can't recall exactly how it went, but he talks about a farmer and his neighbor and the farmer's son breaks his leg and the neighbor says "oh what a pity, how unfortunate" and the farmer says "well, you never know"

And then when the time comes to be drafted, his son doesn't have to go to war because of his broken leg, and the neighbor says "oh how delightful!" and the farmer says well "you never know."

and it goes on. I just can't remember. it's worth checking out though :smile:

We were given free will, choices. We have the freedom to choose. That means we have the freedom to choose what we do, how we'll act, AND how we will feel about certain things. It is rather a choice to feel the pain and the suffering, some seek pity from it, others realize the joy in it.

[BlueSky]

I see what you are saying, and I agree with this as well. Not only robotic, but very difficult to do. I still have pain and suffering, and I choose to call it that :wink: But I do believe it is something we have been conditioned to believe as humans. We get to experience amazing bliss and happiness and success, but none of that comes without the idea of failure, sadness, etc... We cannot have the good without the bad, but therefore I also believe that if you look at it from a neutral standpoint, there is no good or bad, not much humanity in it, no, but spirituality, yes.

It's all just part of the divine game we keep playing :smile:

Thank you for your response and views STF
I think the middle ground looks at suffering and deals with it in such a way that is without seeing spirituality in why it is happening or any other reason. So being neutral means to me to simply deal with it. What does it mean to you?
If one stands up and pushes aside the suffering and humanity of losing a child for example and claims neutrality in respect to it not affecting them (or sets that as a goal for themselves), then all I am saying is I don’t wish to ever be that way.
I don’t separate spirituality from humanity.
Please describe for me a state of being neutral in your opinion, in the example above of losing a child.
James

[Gem]

a broken leg, is a broken leg. ABSOLUTELY. We have evidence of that when we see the broken bone. But where is the evidence of suffering? Who's to say you are suffering when your leg is broken?

Ram Dass tells a wonderful story called "you never know"
you can find it on youtube. I can't recall exactly how it went, but he talks about a farmer and his neighbor and the farmer's son breaks his leg and the neighbor says "oh what a pity, how unfortunate" and the farmer says "well, you never know"

And then when the time comes to be drafted, his son doesn't have to go to war because of his broken leg, and the neighbor says "oh how delightful!" and the farmer says well "you never know."

and it goes on. I just can't remember. it's worth checking out though :smile:

We were given free will, choices. We have the freedom to choose. That means we have the freedom to choose what we do, how we'll act, AND how we will feel about certain things. It is rather a choice to feel the pain and the suffering, some seek pity from it, others realize the joy in it.

Yeah right... the joys of breaking your legs. That's a lovely thing to do for someone. Hehehehehe.

[7luminaries]

pain is part of our survival mechanism. pain tells us when something is amiss so naturally all i learn from pain is how to avoid it, what i might do to mitigate or endure it when avoiding it isn't an option.

i don't believe in pre-life choices or in past life karma. i believe feces occurs and we deal with it the best we can. and maybe how we deal with pain has something to do with something ... if character references are important.

I think most of the philosophy on suffering has come from having to endure when avoiding isn't an option.

Suffering, pain, and fear of suffering seem to me to be blocks or obstacles on our path that keep us from being in a place of love and light. We have to get back to our centre to fully open our channel to the light. This requires being fearless in the face of pain, which is hard when we feel or perceive that we are not at our strongest. Often we plow forward because we know we must, until we feel stripped bare of even the skin on our backs.

A lot of the learning is in the "ride the wave" state...where you are still overcoming your aversion to the suffering, or still overcoming the pain of it, and yet not back to your centre, but you have begun to get the perspective you had been lacking, and new insights and lessons are revealed to you.

Sometimes it takes a bit to absorb them all properly. One lesson I've learned but not yet fully figured out how to "shortcut" is that when we withdraw, we close ourselves off to the bad and the good both. Who wants that, LOL? And so I am trying not to withdraw from the good in my life, which is worth far more than the bad and is far nearer to my heart. This I think is the most difficult lesson to learn, and the most important....to keep your heart open to the good in your life....which is such a blessing...

...even harder than realising you can let go of your suffering once you've taken your lessons from it.

Peace,
7L

[Internal Queries]

a broken leg, is a broken leg. ABSOLUTELY. We have evidence of that when we see the broken bone. But where is the evidence of suffering? Who's to say you are suffering when your leg is broken?

Ram Dass tells a wonderful story called "you never know"
you can find it on youtube. I can't recall exactly how it went, but he talks about a farmer and his neighbor and the farmer's son breaks his leg and the neighbor says "oh what a pity, how unfortunate" and the farmer says "well, you never know"

And then when the time comes to be drafted, his son doesn't have to go to war because of his broken leg, and the neighbor says "oh how delightful!" and the farmer says well "you never know."

and it goes on. I just can't remember. it's worth checking out though :smile:

We were given free will, choices. We have the freedom to choose. That means we have the freedom to choose what we do, how we'll act, AND how we will feel about certain things. It is rather a choice to feel the pain and the suffering, some seek pity from it, others realize the joy in it.

so you believe that if you break your leg you can chose to not feel the pain of having broken your leg?

sorry ... i don't believe it. if you broke your leg you'd get it set in a cast just as fast i would.

there are people born with malfunctioning nerve endings. they literally do not feel pain. as small children they must be watched 24/7 because they might gnaw their own fingers off or cause themselves some other nasty damage because they don't have the pain receptors acting as a pain avoidance system.

[Silver]

I think its all about how you choose to view it. I could easily choose to be suffering right now. I certainly have enough 'reasons' to choose suffering, but really I know that if I take on the role of victim I give up my power. Sometimes I go back and forth through the day. I look at my situation from one perspective and everything seems fine, then I shift perspective and my life looks like a mess. I think Buddha was right, suffering is there all the time begging for us to experience it. The difference is in how we deal with it.


Ty for that explanation. I'm reading all this and I cant help smiling and picturing Susan Powter with her hands to her head screaming 'stop the insanity'~* It's not serious but it does sound a bit crazy to me...What I haven't seen on this thread is some one telling their true tale of how they broke their leg, got the flu, had an operation, got a broken heart, or a touch of the poison oak/ivy, lost a loved one and did it all without 'Suffering'. I haven't heard one anecdote to 'prove' that One can live without feeling the pain, the burn, the heartache of such things. So therefore, I'm led to believe it's all supposition.

[blackfellawhitefella]

Please describe for me a state of being neutral in your opinion, in the example above of losing a child.


i watched a buddhist couple once , show unbelievable repose and compassion towards the killer of their child.


blew me away.

does that count ?
coz they weren't really neutral,


(gotta split)

[surrendertotheflow]

Thank you for your response and views STF
I think the middle ground looks at suffering and deals with it in such a way that is without seeing spirituality in why it is happening or any other reason. So being neutral means to me to simply deal with it. What does it mean to you?
If one stands up and pushes aside the suffering and humanity of losing a child for example and claims neutrality in respect to it not affecting them (or sets that as a goal for themselves), then all I am saying is I don’t wish to ever be that way.
I don’t separate spirituality from humanity.
Please describe for me a state of being neutral in your opinion, in the example above of losing a child.
James


I'm not saying I wouldn't be in terrible pain if I were to lose a child. But I do believe that everything is Yin, AND yang. Therefore, even if you do not see the loss of the child as having a positive effect, somehow it does.

In my beliefs, the Higher Power understands neutrality a great deal more than any of us do. They see all of the positives and negatives happening at exactly the same time. Conditioned as being human, and having a human connection and attachment to a child, we would see the pain and the suffering and the negativity much more so than we would see the positives. But that doesn't mean I don't believe they are there.

Being neutral to me, does not mean being apathetic, it means understanding the totality of a dualistic world, of yin and yang, of good and bad, and seeing it as a whole rather than separating the positives and negatives. And that, is a beautiful experience all in itself :smile:

A lot of my beliefs are difficult for me to explain sometimes as they are much more profound in my head than they are when I write them down in words, so if you have a hard time understanding where I'm coming from, don't hesitate to let me know :tongue:

[BlueSky]

Ty for that explanation. I'm reading all this and I cant help smiling and picturing Susan Powter with her hands to her head screaming 'stop the insanity'~* It's not serious but it does sound a bit crazy to me...What I haven't seen on this thread is some one telling their true tale of how they broke their leg, got the flu, had an operation, got a broken heart, or a touch of the poison oak/ivy, lost a loved one and did it all without 'Suffering'. I haven't heard one anecdote to 'prove' that One can live without feeling the pain, the burn, the heartache of such things. So therefore, I'm led to believe it's all supposition.

Yes and I have asked this very question without an answer so far.
I think not only can one not prove that one can do as you mention without suffering but one will also see that one shouldn't even aspire to such a state.

[surrendertotheflow]

Yeah right... the joys of breaking your legs. That's a lovely thing to do for someone. Hehehehehe.


Hey, if having a broken leg meant I didn't have to get drafted to go to war, I think that would ease a lot of the pain from that broken leg, and I might even be grateful for it :wink:

[BlueSky]

I'm not saying I wouldn't be in terrible pain if I were to lose a child. But I do believe that everything is Yin, AND yang. Therefore, even if you do not see the loss of the child as having a positive effect, somehow it does.

In my beliefs, the Higher Power understands neutrality a great deal more than any of us do. They see all of the positives and negatives happening at exactly the same time. Conditioned as being human, and having a human connection and attachment to a child, we would see the pain and the suffering and the negativity much more so than we would see the positives. But that doesn't mean I don't believe they are there.

Being neutral to me, does not mean being apathetic, it means understanding the totality of a dualistic world, of yin and yang, of good and bad, and seeing it as a whole rather than separating the positives and negatives. And that, is a beautiful experience all in itself :smile:

A lot of my beliefs are difficult for me to explain sometimes as they are much more profound in my head than they are when I write them down in words, so if you have a hard time understanding where I'm coming from, don't hesitate to let me know :tongue:

But you see.......that is not remaining neutral.......it isn't..........

It is substituting the pain with reasoning and beliefs.

[surrendertotheflow]

Ty for that explanation. I'm reading all this and I cant help smiling and picturing Susan Powter with her hands to her head screaming 'stop the insanity'~* It's not serious but it does sound a bit crazy to me...What I haven't seen on this thread is some one telling their true tale of how they broke their leg, got the flu, had an operation, got a broken heart, or a touch of the poison oak/ivy, lost a loved one and did it all without 'Suffering'. I haven't heard one anecdote to 'prove' that One can live without feeling the pain, the burn, the heartache of such things. So therefore, I'm led to believe it's all supposition.


I am in no way saying that i live without feeling pain or suffering. Yes, if I broke my leg it would hurt. That's because we are sentient humans. But you know that saying "we are not humans having a spiritual experience, we are spirits having a human experience?" Part of the human experience is suffering and pain. It hurts when you hit your thumb with a hammer, yes. That is pain. You can't be a human without feeling the pain. But you can choose how you deal with that pain, and you can choose to see that there are both positives AND negatives every time you experience pain, but equally everytime you experience pleasure.

[Silver]

But you see.......that is not remaining neutral.......it isn't..........

It is substituting the pain with reasoning and beliefs.


...it's choosing a different response, a different angle at which to approach such painful and suffering-inducing event.

[surrendertotheflow]

But you see.......that is not remaining neutral.......it isn't..........

It is substituting the pain with reasoning and beliefs.

I never said I was good at remaining neutral, I just said it was my reasoning and belief lol :wink:

I agree with what you have said just as much as I agree with what I have said.

My belief of being neutral is not that you experience NEITHER pleasure or pain, but you experience them both and are grateful for both equally.

Now again, these are my beliefs. I am in no way saying I can keep that state of mind all the time, hehe. Trust me, I experience pain just as you have described it. But my belief is one day when I go back to the Oneness, it will be a place of beauty and neutrality, living in the wonders of experiencing it all happening at the same time.

[surrendertotheflow]

I believe that we are born with suffering because we are attached to our human form. We cling to things outside of our spirit. In doing so, this brings about suffering. We CAN end that suffering, for me, it's the four noble truths, following the 8 fold path of Buddhism.

For every individual it is different though.

[BlueSky]

I never said I was good at remaining neutral, I just said it was my reasoning and belief lol :wink:

I agree with what you have said just as much as I agree with what I have said.

My belief of being neutral is not that you experience NEITHER pleasure or pain, but you experience them both and are grateful for both equally.

Now again, these are my beliefs. I am in no way saying I can keep that state of mind all the time, hehe. Trust me, I experience pain just as you have described it. But my belief is one day when I go back to the Oneness, it will be a place of beauty and neutrality, living in the wonders of experiencing it all happening at the same time.

I hear what you are saying and i respect your comments and views.
I think life works in a way that eternally seeks balance as well. What is interesting to me in this discussion, is that it is what that balance represents that we are really debating.
Maybe there is no balance in regards to a state we find. maybe we simply bounce around from one end to the other for eternity.

[BlueSky]

...it's choosing a different response, a different angle at which to approach such painful and suffering-inducing event.

Yes and I have no issue with that. Except that i can't help but wonder if we just stop asking why, if the need for another angle of approach would fall away.
I just wonder.................

[surrendertotheflow]

I hear what you are saying and i respect your comments and views.
I think life works in a way that eternally seeks balance as well. What is interesting to me in this discussion, is that it is what that balance represents that we are really debating.
Maybe there is no balance in regards to a state we find. maybe we simply bounce around from one end to the other for eternity.


:blob3: :icon_bounce: perhaps we do!!! :smile:

Thanks for your comments and views as well. Very much enjoyed this discussion :smile:

[BlueSky]

Cool bouncy thingys! I wish I'd thought of using those! lol

[Silver]

Yes and I have no issue with that. Except that i can't help but wonder if we just stop asking why, if the need for another angle of approach would fall away.
I just wonder.................


Reminds me of that bit by Pema C. posted by somebody a long time ago about the 7 kinds of loneliness. I was going through my old papers and found a printout of it last week and I think it pertains to what we're discussing here.

[7luminaries]

Thank you for your response and views STF
I think the middle ground looks at suffering and deals with it in such a way that is without seeing spirituality in why it is happening or any other reason. So being neutral means to me to simply deal with it. What does it mean to you?
If one stands up and pushes aside the suffering and humanity of losing a child for example and claims neutrality in respect to it not affecting them (or sets that as a goal for themselves), then all I am saying is I don’t wish to ever be that way.
I don’t separate spirituality from humanity.
Please describe for me a state of being neutral in your opinion, in the example above of losing a child.
James

I have to respond to agree that I don't separate spirituality from humanity or from our materiality. One may be eternal and one temporary, but both are sacred. Both are foundational to humanity. One is the temple of the other and they infuse each other. If we ignore the suffering of the body, then we ignore the suffering of the spirit. And the reverse is also true. And to ignore is to deny. Denial of existence is the greatest "sin" in my book, beyond even hatred and violence. Neutrality ("benign" apathy) to me is last place I would ever want to be.

I have always understood that detachment doesn't mean isolation. Detachment means universal attachment to all life. It's good not to take ourselves too seriously; it puts the ego in its place. But I would never say it's good not to take others lightly...because this goes against (IMO) the entire purpose of existence, namely love and service to self, Self, and others.

I have heard that we are asked 2 questions after our lives...how well did you learn your lessons (that you set for yourself)? and how fully did you love? To the extent that suffering teaches compassion & points us inward to love and acceptance of selves & one another...to the extent that we are moved to care and to offer love and kindness...then one could argue it has a higher purpose. But the lesson of neutrality to the suffering of the human condition to me is not that higher purpose. I am constantly striving for a deeper acceptance and love of self. And like everything else, that requires conscious choice and commitment on my part.

Kierkegaard said that when one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love. IMO this only happens when we accept that humanity is not about neutrality and isolation; it is about love and universality. It is a difficult thing to accept, though, because it means that suffering must be borne for its own sake, just as love too must be borne for its own sake. With grace.

That is why we have God and one another...to ease the burden of suffering, and to increase the joy of loving.

Peace,
7L

[BlueSky]

Reminds me of that bit by Pema C. posted by somebody a long time ago about the 7 kinds of loneliness. I was going through my old papers and found a printout of it last week and I think it pertains to what we're discussing here.

Ha! I actually was the first to post that! She and that paper are amazing! :smile:
It has helped alot of people......

Here is the link.......if anyone is interested:
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1833

[Silver]

Heheh, I looked it up, the thread is about loneliness...

the post is a few doors down

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=6063&highlight=Pema

If anybody's interested.

[BlueSky]

I have to respond to agree that I don't separate spirituality from humanity or from our materiality. One may be eternal and one temporary, but both are sacred. Both are foundational to humanity. One is the temple of the other and they infuse each other. If we ignore the suffering of the body, then we ignore the suffering of the spirit. And the reverse is also true. And to ignore is to deny. Denial of existence is the greatest "sin" in my book, beyond even hatred and violence. Neutrality ("benign" apathy) to me is last place I would ever want to be.

I have always understood that detachment doesn't mean isolation. Detachment means universal attachment to all life. It's good not to take ourselves too seriously; it puts the ego in its place. But I would never say it's good not to take others lightly...because this goes against (IMO) the entire purpose of existence, namely love and service to self, Self, and others.

I have heard that we are asked 2 questions after our lives...how well did you learn your lessons (that you set for yourself)? and how fully did you love? To the extent that suffering teaches compassion & points us inward to love and acceptance of selves & one another...to the extent that we are moved to care and to offer love and kindness...then one could argue it has a higher purpose. But the lesson of neutrality to the suffering of the human condition to me is not that higher purpose. I am constantly striving for a deeper acceptance and love of self. And like everything else, that requires conscious choice and commitment on my part.

Kierkegaard said that when one has once fully entered the realm of love, the world — no matter how imperfect — becomes rich and beautiful, it consists solely of opportunities for love. IMO this only happens when we accept that humanity is not about neutrality and isolation; it is about love and universality. It is a difficult thing to accept, though, because it means that suffering must be borne for its own sake, just as love too must be borne for its own sake. With grace.

That is why we have God and one another...to ease the burden of suffering, and to increase the joy of loving.

Peace,
7L

Beautiful words/beautiful energy.....:smile:

[7luminaries]

Yes and I have asked this very question without an answer so far.
I think not only can one not prove that one can do as you mention without suffering but one will also see that one shouldn't even aspire to such a state.

I completely agree. I feel that to aspire to this state is indicative of a certain level of soul shock.

It is the place of numbness we find ourselves in when transitioning from the shock of grief and loss...and I hope and pray that humanity is never so wounded and devoid of connection that this neutrality is what we aspire to be.

Peace,
7L

[7luminaries]

Beautiful words/beautiful energy.....:smile:

:hug3:

peace & blessings mate.

[BlueSky]

I completely agree. I feel that to aspire to this state is indicative of a certain level of soul shock.

It is the place of numbness we find ourselves in when transitioning from the shock of grief and loss...and I hope and pray that humanity is never so wounded and devoid of connection that this neutrality is what we aspire to be.

Peace,
7L

Amen to that and peace and blessings to you too mate....:smile:

[7luminaries]

Ha! I actually was the first to post that! She and that paper are amazing! :smile:
It has helped alot of people......

Here is the link.......if anyone is interested:
http://www.shambhalasun.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=1833

I just read it and yes it is amazing. Really spot on.
Thanks to all for posting the ref.

[BlueSky]

I just read it and yes it is amazing. Really spot on.
Thanks to all for posting the ref.

You know, I just read the beginning of it again and what went thru my mind is that here is this buddhist nun explaining something in a way that we non buddhist (culturally speaking) would never have guessed would have been explained the way it was.
In other words, we may only think we understand eastern principals in regards to their true intent. :smile:
James

[surrendertotheflow]

I'm really loving this discussion guys! Great link!! :hug2:

[BlueSky]

I'm really loving this discussion guys! Great link!! :hug2:

I thought you might like that link! Lol
See now, here again, we are here today talking today about ‘why’ in regards to suffering and we are talking about pushing it aside and dealing with it and out of the blue an article came back to life that I posted a long time ago and it comes about as a result of a conversation between me and Silvergirl but it relates to you, a follower of Buddhism and it speaks to others as well.
I see this as a synchronicity and not a coincidence. It suggests that we are never alone and it suggests that we are intricately linked together.
What I am trying to say is that no matter what anyone says or believes………..it is these synchronicities that keep the magic alive in my universe and also keep me very humble in regards to anything I think I may know.
I will always remain open. :hug3:
Blessings, James

[surrendertotheflow]

Thanks so much James. I really love how we can all feel the same things even though our point of views can be different sometimes. We are all truly linked :smile:

So, upon reading your words about sharing the link and about interconnectedness, I'd like to share a link to a documentary that just came out. This is a link to the trailer, as I have yet to see the documentary. But I believe all the people writing today would really enjoy it. It's called I Am The Documentary. It's about the journey of finding out what's wrong in the world, and in the process, finding out what's right in the world. And what's right in the world is that we are all part of something that joins us together full of love and light. It's wonderful, it's beautiful :color:

www.iamthedoc.com

[BlueSky]

Thanks so much James. I really love how we can all feel the same things even though our point of views can be different sometimes. We are all truly linked :smile:

So, upon reading your words about sharing the link and about interconnectedness, I'd like to share a link to a documentary that just came out. This is a link to the trailer, as I have yet to see the documentary. But I believe all the people writing today would really enjoy it. It's called I Am The Documentary. It's about the journey of finding out what's wrong in the world, and in the process, finding out what's right in the world. And what's right in the world is that we are all part of something that joins us together full of love and light. It's wonderful, it's beautiful :color:

www.iamthedoc.com (http://www.iamthedoc.com)

Thank you for the link STF...........my workplace blocks access to youtube so i will hopefully get to see it at home.
It sounds interesting......................
blessings, James

[ivy71983]

This is a very nice topic! Im trying to remember a quote i was told in dealing with my current situation but in general it was about God bringing people into our loves to love as well as hurt us to help shape us into the people we are meant to be. As someone already said it is how we handle these situations that can improve or worsen them. I believe God lays out a path he wants us to walk but we choose how we walk it by the choices we make or whether we walk it at all. It all comes back to choice. And yes we are definately all connected!

[athribiristan]

Ty for that explanation. I'm reading all this and I cant help smiling and picturing Susan Powter with her hands to her head screaming 'stop the insanity'~* It's not serious but it does sound a bit crazy to me...What I haven't seen on this thread is some one telling their true tale of how they broke their leg, got the flu, had an operation, got a broken heart, or a touch of the poison oak/ivy, lost a loved one and did it all without 'Suffering'. I haven't heard one anecdote to 'prove' that One can live without feeling the pain, the burn, the heartache of such things. So therefore, I'm led to believe it's all supposition.


Allow me to offer a couple of examples from my own life:

When I was 30, my wife and I made the decision to move from Oregon to Mexico, southern Mexico to be exact. Some friends gave us a van, we sold everything we owned except a few choice items that got stored with the in-laws. We invited my father-in-law, his son (my wife's half brother) and their dog. So 8 people and a big dog driving 4,000 miles in a van crammed full of of stuff. We had no money, no jobs, no real source of income, in fact we didn't even have passports when we left. I was selling gemstones on ebay the whole way down to raise the money it would take to get across the border.

Enter the 'suffering', or the prime opportunity to suffer which I chose not to indulge. My father-in-law is a born again Christian and it is literally the only thing he can think about, let alone talk about. He takes better care of his dog than his son, so my wife and I were stuck feeding not only our 4 kids but his as well. He complained, whined, and generally made the trip miserable for everyone. We went almost a thousand miles out of our way so that he could stop in some village to see some people that weren't even there. There were a million reasons to view the whole situation as negative, like washing your hair at a faucet in a gas station, eating uncooked food for days on end, sleeping with 7 other people in a van, really its a long list but I think you get the picture.

Example 2:
When I first started my job as a commercial fisherman there was HUGE potential for suffering. First of all you are on a boat, the very environment is hostile. Waves come from nowhere and try to take you off your feet and you are surrounded my metal so if you do fall it really hurts. Next, I was seasick. That actually did feel like suffering, very little one can do about being seasick and it is really not fun. Add to that a 16 hour shift, 7 days a week, while I was seasick. On top of that the people hate you. They really don't like new guys, so they are constantly hazing you and yelling at you to go faster and do it better...there is really no mercy. All of this while away from my family, and to make it all just super fun you really don't make any money for the first couple of trips.


Example 3:
When I finally quit fishing, it was only a matter of time before I fell behind on my bills, lost my house, which was sold out from under me. We didn't have a place to move to until about 4 days AFTER the sale of the house. A friend offered to let us stay in a trailer on his property without rent. This sounds great but the trailer had no plumbing (I have gotten a toilet and two sinks working recently, still no shower), needed drywall work, electrical work, paint, new lights, new doors (I just got the back door to a point where it will close and stay closed), all new floors, and some basic remodelling to make enough rooms for all my boys. To make matters worse, all the stuff that filled up our 2400 sq ft house is now crammed into our living room, making any real work all but impossible.


Now I could have chosen in any of these cases to play the victim and fall into a pattern of suffering, and admittedly there were times when I was tempted. But my father did me the favor of drilling into me that suffering/victim-role is a choice. Any time I found myself wanting to go there, I just had to remind myself what I was choosing and it snapped me out of it. I could offer other examples if I sat here long enough and thought about it, but I think I have made my point. It is possible to go through what most people would view as very unpleasant experiences without choosing to suffer, but it takes a very strong will and a certain philosophical outlook.

[PROJECTMAYHEM]

I agree with the second one, it can be avoided and you realize its not necessary. you learn to keep it short, recognize it, dont create more of it and you dont need a mind strategy to counter suffering, you'll learn how it works. so just get in the light/consciousness and that will heal it.

[Silver]

You know, I just read the beginning of it again and what went thru my mind is that here is this buddhist nun explaining something in a way that we non buddhist (culturally speaking) would never have guessed would have been explained the way it was.
In other words, we may only think we understand eastern principals in regards to their true intent. :smile:
James


I've seen her books advertized, lots of people read Hahn's books (hope I spelled that correctly) and the Dalai Lamah's books, wondered how many have read Pema Chodron's books. I really want to check them out.

[tragblack]

it is these synchronicities that keep the magic alive in my universe and also keep me very humble in regards to anything I think I may know.

I feel the same way.

[BlueSky]

I feel the same way.

Recent synchronicities..........

1. My daughter is getting married in Sept and last week, out of the blue, I get a bonus at work.

2. My truck will be paid off in Sept and my wife, who operates a small home daycare just got informed that she will be losing a child at the same time and the amount is just about my truck payment.

Sometimes i think life wants us to just sit back and enjoy the show.........lol :smile:

[unus supra]

I remember one time, i was going through a period of tremendous discomfort, i was in my room hunched over, and i heard distinctly the words, "in darkness we grow"

In that, from my experience suffering has taught me a great deal, especially that it sucks, and that its something we share, and that what i go through, i really wish nobody has to deal with it. i mean that. it has also, at different points in my life showed me which of my actions were un skilled, where i needed to change.

having said that, my feeling about suffering, is that so long as we have a body we will experience discomfort and pain, old age, weakness among others along with all the good feelings, i consider it suffering when the mind creates its romantic story around it and we latch on or try to avoid it.

The feelings themselves are there when they arise, they will pass under their own power if we let them, going to war with whats occurring and resisting it or trying to hold onto it. woulda coulda shoulda is not how it isa.

i feel is the nature of suffering.

[BlueSky]

The feelings themselves are there when they arise, they will pass under their own power if we let them, going to war with whats occurring and resisting it or trying to hold onto it. woulda coulda shoulda is not how it isa. unus supra

Yes its like when people say to fight cancer, I want to say no.....embrace it.
That doesn't mean what it sounds like. It doesn't mean give up.
It means it may be your friend, learn from it and maybe it will leave or you will learn how to help it leave.
That is my expereince anyways.
James

[Evalon]

Hi sound & fellows here,

I have only read the beginning of the thread by now but when reading sound's opening post I thought about the conscious map developed by David Hawkins (as far as I know also the initiator of kinesiology). It shows different levels of consciousness and it is my personal impression that suffering "belongs" to certain levels of consciousness and - when a person transcends these levels - suffering ceases to be.

However, due to the exchange of energy (or consciousness) between people close by each other or from a distance, my personal conclusion is that suffering "in total" will not cease until all people (and maybe animals?) on earth are above the suffering levels.

Warm greetings from Denmark,

Jesper