Your truth .. My truth .. One Truth?

[sound]

What is truth? How is it defined? Is there truth and Truth? If so what is the difference?

When are our truths individual/personal and when do they merge?

Is there Absolute Truth and if so, what makes it so?

Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:

[Terry]

Truth is everything you can percieve through all your senses whether in the physical world or the spirit world. Everything is truth.

[athribiristan]

What is truth? How is it defined? Is there truth and Truth? If so what is the difference?

When are our truths individual/personal and when do they merge?

Is there Absolute Truth and if so, what makes it so?

Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:


The truth is what you believe and experience. The Truth is God. A good example; before the world was known to be round, it was commonly accepted as flat. People lived their lives based around this truth; it was true for them. But the Truth is that the laws that govern our universe do so in a way as to cause planets to form as spheres. There is absolute Truth, that which is true regardless of our ability to perceive it, and there is personal truth, which is true for us personally regardless of what the absolute Truth might be.

[din]

What is truth? How is it defined? Is there truth and Truth? If so what is the difference?

When are our truths individual/personal and when do they merge?

Is there Absolute Truth and if so, what makes it so?

Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:

What is truth?

It's just a concept. :D

But may it may also be the aware space taking in this post. :rolleyes:

By the way, why do you ask? :tongue:

[yinepu]

What is truth? How is it defined? Is there truth and Truth? If so what is the difference?

When are our truths individual/personal and when do they merge?

Is there Absolute Truth and if so, what makes it so?

Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:


Hi Sound, well i think of your heading, your truth,,, my truth,, one truth ?

I know this, there is one illusion which is what we are all living under now, whether its the veil, the illusion the powers to be have created for the human race (ie we are alone ), whatever you call it i believe we are beng disillusioned to believe we are alone,

As for truth, well i think your truth is yours and my truth is mine, its a personal thing mostly,, until the day we are shown the absolute truth then we will go on to believe whatever makes us happy in that particular growth cycle.

for example my neighbour is a christian, it makes them happy, me im more spiritual and happy content but still searching always searching for new ideas and answers, this makes me happy. Until the absolute truth is divulged, then as long as no one is harming others its all good.(an example , i really dont think my neighbours are christian, the music is a bit loud and heavy ha !)

[arive nan]

Some things are true even independently of human experience or observation. Humans can observe and experience some of these things. But these things are true whether or not people know about them or understand them. We could call these facts maybe.

What people refer to as their own truth as something might be different from other people's truths, most of the time these are beliefs, or opinions, or what they think based on how things seem to be from their perspective. They are things that people do not or cannot definitely know to be facts. It is common for people to prefer to regard these things as some kind of truth, even if others disagree. They don't want to regard these as beliefs or opinions.

When that is the case, I sometimes try to accommodate since they could be reluctant to cooperatively communicate about it if I am calling these things beliefs and opinions. And sometimes it's just not convenient to be adding all the time that it's just your thoughts/opinions. But I don't think it is entirely honest to say that things that you don't know to be facts are some kind of truth. It's kind of just a way of telling yourself that you're right, even though you might not be, because you prefer being right over maybe not being right.

[Gem]

What is truth?

It's just a concept. :D

But may it may also be the aware space taking in this post. :rolleyes:

By the way, why do you ask? :tongue:

It's like what is a 'bird'... a thing which is observed to be thus named for communication purposes, and when people notice the truth happens to be they name the phenomena...

It's so simple, I live in Italy... that is not the truth. I am male... that is true.

[Greenslade]

The world is flat.
No it's not, it's round.
It's solid ground.
No it's not, it's made up of atoms with lots of space between it. Take out the space between every atom in or on the planet and you end up with something the size of a sugar cube.
Nope, matter is energy and has no substance after all.

The Truth is a limit to what you believe. An ultimate. Some people need limits and ultimates. Like believing the earth is flat because they can't (or won't) see any further than their own noses. Some persuade others they know what it is, but do they really? Or are they simply indulging in their ego? Do they want others to believe they know what the Truth is because it gives them some kind of power?

Can there be such a thing as the Absolute Truth in eternity? Absolute implies an ending of some kind, again a limit. If eternity has no limits then can Truth have a limit? We continually expand what the Truth is into that eternity, it becomes never ending like a quest that will never be done.

If we are One as so many keep saying in here, then is decrying someone else's truth akin to masochism? If we are One, then everyone else's truth is our Truth too.

[sound]

Thanks for replies everyone. I have every intention of trying to keep up with people when I start a thread but I am kidding myself. I often get through the first page … most threads usually take on a life of their own after that anyway :hug3: …


Truth is everything you can perceive through all your senses whether in the physical world or the spirit world. Everything is truth
Yes … others have that same view … my way of understanding that is that every expression contains an element of truth. Even a lie has an element of truth attached to it in that it is true that it is a lie?
The truth is what you believe and experience. The Truth is God. A good example; before the world was known to be round, it was commonly accepted as flat. People lived their lives based around this truth; it was true for them. But the Truth is that the laws that govern our universe do so in a way as to cause planets to form as spheres. There is absolute Truth, that which is true regardless of our ability to perceive it, and there is personal truth, which is true for us personally regardless of what the absolute Truth might be.

So when you say universal truths athribiristan do you mean those that are purely based on universal law? If we have personal truths which may prove to be different to what future evidence presents are those truths simply beliefs which we accept as truth?

What is truth?

It's just a concept.

But it may also be the aware space taking in this post.

By the way, why do you ask?
Is it true that truth is just a concept din?
So, if we experience or perceive something are you saying there is no element of truth in it … not even in the conceptualization of it?
By the way, why do I ask, you ask lol … probably for reasons which are similar to yours ... because I am interested in the way of others and how and what they think, believe, perceive, conceive etc?

Hi Sound, well i think of your heading, your truth,,, my truth,, one truth ?

I know this, there is one illusion which is what we are all living under now, whether its the veil, the illusion the powers to be have created for the human race (ie we are alone ), whatever you call it i believe we are being disillusioned to believe we are alone,


Oh ok … so you are in the ‘reality is an illusion’ camp yin …so I would ask how do we know the illusion is real, or to keep to the topic how do we know it is a true illusion?

Some things are true even independently of human experience or observation. Humans can observe and experience some of these things. But these things are true whether or not people know about them or understand them. We could call these facts maybe.

What people refer to as their own truth as something might be different from other people's truths, most of the time these are beliefs, or opinions, or what they think based on how things seem to be from their perspective. They are things that people do not or cannot definitely know to be facts. It is common for people to prefer to regard these things as some kind of truth, even if others disagree. They don't want to regard these as beliefs or opinions.

When that is the case, I sometimes try to accommodate since they could be reluctant to cooperatively communicate about it if I am calling these things beliefs and opinions. And sometimes it's just not convenient to be adding all the time that it's just your thoughts/opinions. But I don't think it is entirely honest to say that things that you don't know to be facts are some kind of truth. It's kind of just a way of telling yourself that you're right, even though you might not be, because you prefer being right over maybe not being right.

I got to the part in your post where you speak about people being reluctant to discuss their truths in the light of beliefs and opinions and an analogy occurred to me arrive nan. If we discover the stumps of the house have white ants and needs replacing we need to be very careful how we do that otherwise the whole building might collapse. It usually proves safer to replace one stump at a time … hmm it doesn’t seem so relevant now that I have written it lol

It's like what is a 'bird'... a thing which is observed to be thus named for communication purposes, and when people notice the truth happens to be they name the phenomena...


The word isn’t the bird but the bird is described by its word lol

[yinepu]

Hi Sound, nah not really in the camp of reality is an illusion,, i bust my gut to get where im going so no , not a fan... hard to explain but i will try.

I think we are being lied to as humans by the guys in charge.... ie we are alone in the universe.. so whether thats taken as the govts are all liars , or whatever then so be it haha.

But in general , i think the truth is here, the truth of our beigning, our universe, our future i believe the people in charge, know the truth of our past , present and future, but to control us, they give us our plasma tvs (love mine:D ) our fancy cars (love mine again ) all the distraction we need to not question those in charge.


Now i dont beileve, Obama nor Julia Gillard know the 'truth" i think again they are puppets .


In saying all the above i do believe it, however im allowing that beilief to overtake nor blind me to learning something new , by a fellow forum member, its just a thought i have , a sort of truth i am aware of , not necessarily a fanatic and my way or the highway sort of thing... just a thought is probably the best way to describe it really

[Lightspirit]

There are facts and evidence. But dont let those get in the way of a good opinion..

Truths are subjective. they are subject to beliefs popular at the time.

I dont believe a wise thing is to solely base your ideas of truth on the experiences (writings) of others.

You will know a truth when you experience it yourself. They will always be your own.

Some say God is not real For them they have never experienced God in a way that would convince them otherwise. For them their concept of God is others writings. So they go round and round in circles from one idea to another looking to find God. When you are individually touched spiritually, an idea suddenly gets thrust into the category of unmistakable truth. We then are baffled why others do not see it too, but they may not because it is not their time yet.

I know God is real because I have experienced god in my life at a supernatural level. Yeah there is something there. That is my truth. The only truth I can offer anyone else on this is my word of not lying about that it all exists. I talk to others who know this too, It is our shared truth, It joins us.

[sound]

Oh ok ... so you think the world leaders are part of some cosmic conspiracy which is aimed at keeping us all in the dark, and therefore unaware of the truth yin? I am not sure they are that smart lol



Hi Sound, nah not really in the camp of reality is an illusion,, i bust my gut to get where im going so no , not a fan... hard to explain but i will try.

I think we are being lied to as humans by the guys in charge.... ie we are alone in the universe.. so whether thats taken as the govts are all liars , or whatever then so be it haha.

But in general , i think the truth is here, the truth of our beigning, our universe, our future i believe the people in charge, know the truth of our past , present and future, but to control us, they give us our plasma tvs (love mine:D ) our fancy cars (love mine again ) all the distraction we need to not question those in charge.

Now i dont beileve, Obama nor Julia Gillard know the 'truth" i think again they are puppets .

[athribiristan]

So when you say universal truths athribiristan do you mean those that are purely based on universal law? If we have personal truths which may prove to be different to what future evidence presents are those truths simply beliefs which we accept as truth?

That's it exactly. Gravity, for instance is universal to physical experience, thus a universal Truth or Law. However people who have never explored gravity might decide that animal sacrifice is what keeps us pinned to the Earth. They believe this, they make their sacrifices and they experience this at true. I think the imortant thing to remember is that what is true in someone's mind becomes true for them, whether it is logical, rational, or just plain crazy it still represents truth for that person.


"What's true is what's true for you"

"Reality is mass agreement"

L. Ron Hubbard

[Lightspirit]

"What's true is what's true for you"

"Reality is mass agreement"

L. Ron Hubbard very true!

If everyone agrees on on it..it is probably wrong! lol

[BlueSky]

Truth in this thread to me refers to it in a spiritual context, not if the world is flat, or if people lie......... so in that respect I only know things that are not the truth............
Anything else are just beliefs I might have and I am sure that they help propel me thru life but I don't regard them as truth in a way that I would ever try to debate them.
James

[blackfellawhitefella]

If we are One, then everyone else's truth is our Truth too.


i'm in this camp.

it's all true.


then there's .... as we believe , so shall it be ... which seems to support the above


but then , i can see how it also says bugger all about what is ultimately possibly true about things

[Gem]

Thanks for replies everyone. I have every intention of trying to keep up with people when I start a thread but I am kidding myself. I often get through the first page … most threads usually take on a life of their own after that anyway :hug3: …



Yes … others have that same view … my way of understanding that is that every expression contains an element of truth. Even a lie has an element of truth attached to it in that it is true that it is a lie?


So when you say universal truths athribiristan do you mean those that are purely based on universal law? If we have personal truths which may prove to be different to what future evidence presents are those truths simply beliefs which we accept as truth?


Is it true that truth is just a concept din?
So, if we experience or perceive something are you saying there is no element of truth in it … not even in the conceptualization of it?
By the way, why do I ask, you ask lol … probably for reasons which are similar to yours ... because I am interested in the way of others and how and what they think, believe, perceive, conceive etc?


Oh ok … so you are in the ‘reality is an illusion’ camp yin …so I would ask how do we know the illusion is real, or to keep to the topic how do we know it is a true illusion?



I got to the part in your post where you speak about people being reluctant to discuss their truths in the light of beliefs and opinions and an analogy occurred to me arrive nan. If we discover the stumps of the house have white ants and needs replacing we need to be very careful how we do that otherwise the whole building might collapse. It usually proves safer to replace one stump at a time … hmm it doesn’t seem so relevant now that I have written it lol


The word isn’t the bird but the bird is described by its word lol

Er ... I know... what I said was, the bird is noticed to be and so it is named, just as the truth is noticed to be and named, so if I say I'm male you notice that is the truth.

[sound]

Er ... I know... what I said was, the bird is noticed to be and so it is named, just as the truth is noticed to be and named, so if I say I'm male you notice that is the truth.

I know ... i was agreeing and reinforcing what you said ...

[blackfellawhitefella]

so both are true then...

the agreement AND the misunderstanding.

the (whole) relationship is truth.

[Gem]

I know ... i was agreeing and reinforcing what you said ...

OH gotcha...

So I think Din's statement truth is just a concept isn't accurate, it's like saying a bird is just a concept.

Then if you make truth a concept of the truth it is no longer the truth, it becomes a belief about the truth. Such as birds, one can make concepts about birds like 'doves represent freedom'... and that concept is generally understood, but doves are doves with or without the concept.

[Gem]

so both are true then...

the agreement AND the misunderstanding.

the (whole) relationship is truth.



It's not prudent to imply everything is true because there is untruth, dishonesty, lies, deception...

eg/ my grandfather slept with queen victoria II... not the truth.

[blackfellawhitefella]

prudent.

lol.


your deceptions , my dishonesty are now truth.




if your grandfather was in relationship with queen victoria , even if it was imaginary ... are u denying the possibility of ... truth.








i'll stick with my lack of prudence. :smile:

[Gem]

prudent.

lol.


your deceptions , my dishonesty are now truth.




if your grandfather was in relationship with queen victoria , even if it was imaginary ... are u denying the possibility of ... truth.








i'll stick with my lack of prudence. :smile:

Yes I imagined it, I had to, for it isn't true...

[yinepu]

Oh ok ... so you think the world leaders are part of some cosmic conspiracy which is aimed at keeping us all in the dark, and therefore unaware of the truth yin? I am not sure they are that smart lol


No not at all, first make me sound like a crackpot in conspiracy theories, which is not what im trying to say ,, oh well never mind, the written word can be a bit hard to convey your non chalance to something .

Do i think govt heads are that smart hell nooo hahaha, thats what i said earlier .

Look i really have no idea of the beginning nor the end of my thought , it simply is a thought.

If i have to add to it in some way

maybe if you look at the Egyptians, the truth of evolution, technology, how to use astrology all of that is lost ! Or is it simply hidden from us ? And if its hidden from us then who is hiding it , spiritually hiding or powers on this earth?



Or what about water power... we have oceans surrounding us in australia, why not use thw water turbines to power our cities ????

There is alot of TRUTH out there that is not being shared with us....

remember the days of NUCLEAR power is harmless, and then many people died of cancer and its now genetically passed down through the generations , cancer.

[blackfellawhitefella]

if you say so ... so shall it be.



*************************



but , don't be forgetting , that ,
now, It Is.

(just like our deceptions and dishonesty)

[CuriousSnowflake]

What is truth? How is it defined? Is there truth and Truth? If so what is the difference?

When are our truths individual/personal and when do they merge?

Is there Absolute Truth and if so, what makes it so?

Much gratitude in advance for all contributions ... :hug3:

IMHO, the only Truth is cause and effect. We are free to do whatever we want, but there are consequences to everything. Physicality is basically a big echo chamber; whatever we send out, we get back. If our thoughts, words, and deeds project fear, a fearful and frightening world is what we get back. If we project love, love returns. This is basically just Newton's Third Law made manifest; for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

CS

[CuriousSnowflake]

The world is flat.
No it's not, it's round.
It's solid ground.
No it's not, it's made up of atoms with lots of space between it. Take out the space between every atom in or on the planet and you end up with something the size of a sugar cube.
Nope, matter is energy and has no substance after all.

The Truth is a limit to what you believe. An ultimate. Some people need limits and ultimates. Like believing the earth is flat because they can't (or won't) see any further than their own noses. Some persuade others they know what it is, but do they really? Or are they simply indulging in their ego? Do they want others to believe they know what the Truth is because it gives them some kind of power?

Can there be such a thing as the Absolute Truth in eternity? Absolute implies an ending of some kind, again a limit. If eternity has no limits then can Truth have a limit? We continually expand what the Truth is into that eternity, it becomes never ending like a quest that will never be done.

If we are One as so many keep saying in here, then is decrying someone else's truth akin to masochism? If we are One, then everyone else's truth is our Truth too.

Oooohhh, good stuff here. I agree, it is a never ending quest. Isn't that glorious!

CS

[Gem]

if you say so ... so shall it be.



*************************



but , don't be forgetting , that ,
now, It Is.

(just like our deceptions and dishonesty)


Next time you notice something untrue, when you witness a deception, you'll find the idealism doesn't equate to how things happen to be.

[blackfellawhitefella]

idealism huh .



funny that , coz i feel you should be looking towards and opening up to subtlety and nuance .



each to their own .
but , you can keep your idealism.

[blackfellawhitefella]

night all
xx

[surrendertotheflow]

IMHO, the only Truth is cause and effect. We are free to do whatever we want, but there are consequences to everything. Physicality is basically a big echo chamber; whatever we send out, we get back. If our thoughts, words, and deeds project fear, a fearful and frightening world is what we get back. If we project love, love returns. This is basically just Newton's Third Law made manifest; for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.
CS

Agreed. We manifest our own truths, and that is the Absolute Truth. Funny how even our personal truths and the Absolute Truth are also interconnected :wink: Buddha said not to believe anything, not even if He said it, unless it feels right and true to you in your experiences and in your heart. We've been given such a gift as to make truth into whatever we want it to be, our thoughts manifesting our future, shaping our experiences from our own choices and free will. :hug3:

[Gem]

idealism huh .



funny that , coz i feel you should be looking towards and opening up to subtlety and nuance .



each to their own .
but , you can keep your idealism.

I see there are lies and thats how it is. You might be in denial of such a phenomena to uphold your idealisms, but really you have witnessed the occurance of deception just as I have, yet speak in vague obscurities to cloud what's plain over... then call it 'subtle'.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

There is simple 'isness'.. as it is what it 'is', and.. we try to describe the 'isness', some descriptions are more accurate than others.. the 'truth' is what it 'is'.. the more accurate the description, the more likely we will understand it as 'true'..

Be well..

[I AM]

I am what is true.

[william.b]

The human mind is incapable of holding the whole Truth while on earth. You'll never encounter the Truth in it's entirety on this planet.

[william.b]

Greetings..

There is simple 'isness'.. as it is what it 'is', and.. we try to describe the 'isness', some descriptions are more accurate than others.. the 'truth' is what it 'is'.. the more accurate the description, the more likely we will understand it as 'true'..

Be well..
Isness isn't all it is cracked up to be. When people start talking like this, I leave the room.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Isness isn't all it is cracked up to be. When people start talking like this, I leave the room.
Bye bye.. good luck with that..

Be well..

[jiraiyaNOmonogatari]

Belief doesn't make something true, but truth could make someone believe. :smile:

[Squatchit]

Hi jiraiya

Belief doesn't make something true, but truth could make someone believe. :smile:

Wouldn't truth make someone know rather than believe?

[Lynn]

Spiritual Truth - What is it ?

This Spiritual Truth is something we all talk on but is it real or reality ?

Spirituality is said to be the intimate or immaterial reality, where one finds the inner meaning of being . That place of inner peace where one finds the deepest of nature of the divine.

To some this Spiritual Truth is the connection to God’s consciousness and to find the understandings in his message or to understand in creation itself. To find in this life a path that will in the end run lead one’s Soul to Enlightenment.

“When you are content to be simply yourself and don’t compare or compete, everybody will respect you”

Lao Tzu

Truth - Reality; actuality. That which is considered to be the supreme reality and to have the ultimate meaning and value of existence.

Existence - being real; state of being real, actual.

Real - physically existing, having physical existence

Soul - The spiritual nature of humans, regarded as immortal, separated from the body at death . To continue on its journeys.

Enlightenment - a final blessed state free from ignorance, desire and suffering

Suffering - spirituality speaking consolation or relief, conforming to moral conduct ( do no harm, help the afflicted)

Reality - The state of things as they actually exist. Rather than as they may appear or may be thought to be. In the widest definition , reality includes everything that is has a being, whether or not it is observable or comprehendible.

In looking up many terms that come in with Spiritual Truth I still have not found the meaning of Spiritual Truth.

Is there such a thing as TRUTH ? The jury is still out for me.

Lynn

[7luminaries]

I think this thread is brill...
gives us the opportunity to discuss how we find common truth...whilst acknowledging that we all have our own perception of truth.

I think it is true (my truth, LOL) that we find common truth in observation of phenomena and in cause and effect of all kinds. As Gem has noted.

And IMO we also find common truth in a higher standard or a Higher Law, as jiraiya and Tzu noted. Belief in the sanctity of all life is the ultimate source and sustenance of humanitarian principles.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Truth is Life.. and, Life is 'IT', creator and created.. Life created 'you', and 'you' create Life.. this is all there 'is', and it neither begins nor ends with the bodies Life has manifested.. understand, and make Life Sacred.

Be well..

[jiraiyaNOmonogatari]

Hi jiraiya



Wouldn't truth make someone know rather than believe?

yes you are right, but "believe" rhymed better lol. :D

[Squatchit]

yes you are right, but "believe" rhymed better lol. :D

I'm not following.

"Believe" rhymed better with what word? Truth? :confused:

[athribiristan]

It's not prudent to imply everything is true because there is untruth, dishonesty, lies, deception...

eg/ my grandfather slept with queen victoria II... not the truth.


Unless you believe it....then its true for you.

[athribiristan]

The human mind is incapable of holding the whole Truth while on earth. You'll never encounter the Truth in it's entirety on this planet.

Speak for yourself brother, I will put no such limitations on myself. I am FAR more than a human mind, and quite capable of knowing the whole Truth. In fact I already know enough to know that I AM that Truth, waiting to discover myself.

[surrendertotheflow]

Speak for yourself brother, I will put no such limitations on myself. I am FAR more than a human mind, and quite capable of knowing the whole Truth. In fact I already know enough to know that I AM that Truth, waiting to discover myself.

Amen brother! :hug3:

[blackfellawhitefella]

:smile:

we deal our own hand,
this i do understand.

[Gem]

Unless you believe it....then its true for you.

Then I believe it, that doesn't make it true for me or my grandfather or the queen.

The ideologies people attempt to uphold require complete denial of the plain and simple, because what I said about my grandfather was a bald faced lie, and that's all it is.

[God-Like]

Hi All .

If we say the sun within our 3d experience Is a source of energy that does Indeed sustain life then that would be the truth of It . In other realms the sun Is Indeed a source of energy but It does not sustain life In the same way . That would be the truth of It . Beyond mind there Is no sun at all .

The truth of what Is never changes. .

What can and does change Is what Is . that Is of life . .

x daz x

[sound]

No not at all, first make me sound like a crackpot in conspiracy theories,

Yin ... of course I dont think you are crackers ... well, no more than me anyway lol ... yes it is hard to convey meaning here ... you are sharp as a tac .. its me who is not getting it ... sorry about that matey :hug3:

[william.b]

Greetings..


Bye bye.. good luck with that..

Be well..
Yeah. Good luck with your "isness" jacking off too.
Bye bye.

[sound]

oo thats a bit below the belt is'nt it? ... lol ... nothing like a nice friendly exit lol

[BlueSky]

Below the belt!................LOL

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Yeah. Good luck with your "isness" jacking off too.
Bye bye.
Okay, that says alot about your maturity and comprehension skills..

Be well..

[Gem]

I'm not surprised that such sayings as 'your own truth' give the impression that anything anyone believes is validated, but what someone believes is often exposed as nothing more than self comforting lies. Truthfulness is something everyone already knows anyway, and when beliefs confront the experience there is conflict because truth presents itself and beliefs must be forgone... and so precious are beliefs they are called 'my truth'.

[Internal Queries]

i must admit some frustration and resentment with being socially forced to accept as "truth" some of the beliefs people insist i accept as "their truth". i question myself constantly. i explore every nook and cranny of my consciousness for self deception. i don't even accept my own concepts as "truth" and yet i'm expected to respect the self deceptions of other folks.

**sigh**

[sound]

I'm not surprised that such sayings as 'your own truth' give the impression that anything anyone believes is validated, but what someone believes is often exposed as nothing more than self comforting lies. Truthfulness is something everyone already knows anyway, and when beliefs confront the experience there is conflict because truth presents itself and beliefs must be forgone... and so precious are beliefs they are called 'my truth'.

Does that illustrate that we need beliefs Gem ... we hold onto beliefs as truths because there is no other information available at the time ... in other words, the truth has not been revealed ... people often talk about not holding any beliefs ... do they simply believe that is so? Can we 'not' believe?

[yinepu]

Yin ... of course I dont think you are crackers ... well, no more than me anyway lol ... yes it is hard to convey meaning here ... you are sharp as a tac .. its me who is not getting it ... sorry about that matey :hug3:


naww thanks for the hug :hug3: hehe.

[BlueSky]

i must admit some frustration and resentment with being socially forced to accept as "truth" some of the beliefs people insist i accept as "their truth". i question myself constantly. i explore every nook and cranny of my consciousness for self deception. i don't even accept my own concepts as "truth" and yet i'm expected to respect the self deceptions of other folks.

**sigh**

I don't think it is possible to question ourselves and explore what you call self deception. In fact I don't think there is such a thing as self deception.
I think as life unfolds we sometimes see things in a new way and this pushes the old ways aside. They are not 'our' old ways.
Just sharing.................:smile:

If we were deceiving ourselves.........we would never see it.

[Internal Queries]

I don't think it is possible to question ourselves and explore what you call self deception. In fact I don't think there is such a thing as self deception.
I think as life unfolds we sometimes see things in a new way and this pushes the old ways aside. They are not 'our' old ways.
Just sharing.................:smile:

If we were deceiving ourselves.........we would never see it.


gee ... i've caught myself lying to myself many times therefore every concept i conjure is suspect. there's self serving and then there's Self serving, if ya get my drift.

it would be a self deception to believe i can't deceive myself. lol if i believed i couldn't deceive myself i surely wouldn't be able to see myself being self deceiving. such a belief would inhibit self honest discovery.

[sound]

If we were deceiving ourselves.........we would never see it.
I agree with this in essence WS ... it sounds like a play on words at first however 'tis true ... there is an aspect of our 'self' that knows the **** from the clay every time ... and i will venture to say we even know its all clay at the end of the day lol

[Gem]

Does that illustrate that we need beliefs Gem ... we hold onto beliefs as truths because there is no other information available at the time ... in other words, the truth has not been revealed ... people often talk about not holding any beliefs ... do they simply believe that is so? Can we 'not' believe?

Seeing is believing I always say, Like I do believe I'm typing away, and you believe there are words appearing on the screen... and although another can say it's all an illusion and it's vibrations in energy etc and so on... all of it is another way of saying... but as it occurs you read what I type and that is the intention behind this process.

That really doesn't have much to do with the truth though, because truthfulness is not a tangible phenomena is it? There are attributes like authenticity, sincerity, honesty trust and so on.

Truthfulness cultivates trust and I think that's the main thing about truth.

[Internal Queries]

i guess i'm not understanding something. though one may not be able to view the back of ones own eyeball one can indeed recognize a self serving lie from a Self serving truth if one is self honest.

[God-Like]

gee ... i've caught myself lying to myself many times therefore every concept i conjure is suspect. there's self serving and then there's Self serving, if ya get my drift.

it would be a self deception to believe i can't deceive myself. lol if i believed i couldn't deceive myself i surely wouldn't be able to see myself being self deceiving. such a belief would inhibit self honest discovery.

That made me chuckle I.Q. Thanks for that :smile:

I would say there Is no myself or yourself . There is only self .

I would say that the self that Is In mind has accumulated via Individuality many mind sets as to what It Is that they are .

Within these Ideas and concepts I would say that conflicts, delusions and deceptions or whatever occur/manifest .

If the self realizes the self then there Is no-one In particular here or there to deceive .

x dazzle x

[sound]

i guess i'm not understanding something. though one may not be able to view the back of ones own eyeball one can indeed recognize a self serving lie from a Self serving truth if one is self honest.

Brilliant analogy and the very fact that you can discern the difference reveals a lack of deception ...

[Internal Queries]

Brilliant analogy and the very fact that you can discern the difference reveals a lack of deception ...


practice practice practice. lol

[blackfellawhitefella]

night all
xx

[7luminaries]

That made me chuckle I.Q. Thanks for that :smile:

I would say there Is no myself or yourself . There is only self .

I would say that the self that Is In mind has accumulated via Individuality many mind sets as to what It Is that they are .

Within these Ideas and concepts I would say that conflicts, delusions and deceptions or whatever occur/manifest .

If the self realizes the self then there Is no-one In particular here or there to deceive .

x dazzle x

That is very true in my experience.

Often it can be as simple as misunderstood obligations or misplaced loyalties, etc...it is not always about bolstering the ego per se but removing the clouds from the eyes.

Which is often best done by finding a better view or a new perspective on the situation. :smile:

[sound]

Sleep well Mr fella :hug3:

[God-Like]

night all
xx

Gud night mate .

:hug3:

x daz x

[God-Like]

That is very true in my experience.

Often it can be as simple as misunderstood obligations or misplaced loyalties, etc...it is not always about bolstering the ego per se but removing the clouds from the eyes.

Which is often best done by finding a better view or a new perspective on the situation. :smile:

Hi 7 . :smile:

Who or what It Is that has placed the clouds before our eyes would you say .

x daz x

[Gem]

I don't think it is possible to question ourselves and explore what you call self deception. In fact I don't think there is such a thing as self deception.
I think as life unfolds we sometimes see things in a new way and this pushes the old ways aside. They are not 'our' old ways.
Just sharing.................:smile:

If we were deceiving ourselves.........we would never see it.

people see how they are deceiving themselves all the time... this is how the process works... first the person wishes for some self servient thing, but knows it lacks integrity, so they invent a story to tell themself in order to justify the act... the story isn't true but they convince themselves by telling it over and over again in their heads. After a time they just go 'damn it, I'm fooling myself' and drop the whole charade... and that is usually a little painful.

I don't know why you observe people in self deception and then deny it, or why others witness deception plainly and then deny it, because experience shows there is deception and we can lie to ourselves as easily as we lie to others.

[BlueSky]

What I am talking about is in essence and hard to relate.
I am the sum total of james's experiences and of global experiences.
Who exactly would it be that is deceiving himself...........I can be living in deception but not intentionally.
When I see this it is because I have been made aware of it thru more expereinces of james and the global aspect of who i am.
Its deeper than that but that is the best i can do for now to explain it.
Do you see yourself as a seperate entity. Existing of and by yourself?
I don't.....................so who 'could' be deceiving who..........

[Internal Queries]

If the self realizes the self then there Is no-one In particular here or there to deceive .



hmmm that's pretty damn slippery so probably a deception via the use of abstracts. hehehe! such mechinations set off my ** alarm (which is why i'm not very good at new agey stuff).

[7luminaries]

Hi 7 . :smile:

Who or what It Is that has placed the clouds before our eyes would you say .

x daz x

Self or ego I suppose...but not to make us feel better necessarily...often it makes us feel worse (LOL). it is based on that cloud of beliefs, whatever it may be, that reveals perhaps some of the truth or purpose to the mind...but steers the mind wrong in other ways. Then one's conscience becomes just a slave of mind...which in fact is not where the truth lies.

that is why mind is best removed from as much of life as possible, LOL.
Particularly regarding anything critical!

:hug3:

[BlueSky]

people see how they are deceiving themselves all the time Gem

No........people come to see deception within all the time. There's a difference.
In fact when they see it, they usually are thankful and do not refer to it what they saw as deception. They see it as a growth.
I believed jesus saves for 10 years and that belief took me to the next shore of my life. That belief was like a raft to get me there that was no longer needed.
James

[jiraiyaNOmonogatari]

I'm not following.

"Believe" rhymed better with what word? Truth? :confused:

:icon_eek:what! No... with the sentence.

[Internal Queries]

What I am talking about is in essence and hard to relate.
I am the sum total of james's experiences and of global experiences.
Who exactly would it be that is deceiving himself...........I can be living in deception but not intentionally.
When I see this it is because I have been made aware of it thru more expereinces of james and the global aspect of who i am.
Its deeper than that but that is the best i can do for now to explain it.
Do you see yourself as a seperate entity. Existing of and by yourself?
I don't.....................so who 'could' be deceiving who..........


it's the belief that i am not separate, that there are variation of the Self to whom i am connected that behooves me to be as accurate in my self portrayal as possible. if i put out a false self image my falsehoods dirties and distorts Our Mirror. We can't see Our Self if we're viewing Our rendition of The Self in a warped and cloudy funhouse mirror. it's my responsibility and the responsibility of all those to whom i'm connected to keep The Mirror clean, clear and as free of distortions as humanly possible.

[Gem]

What I am talking about is in essence and hard to relate.
I am the sum total of james's experiences and of global experiences.
Who exactly would it be that is deceiving himself...........I can be living in deception but not intentionally.
When I see this it is because I have been made aware of it thru more expereinces of james and the global aspect of who i am.
Its deeper than that but that is the best i can do for now to explain it.
Do you see yourself as a seperate entity. Existing of and by yourself?
I don't.....................so who 'could' be deceiving who..........

People lie to themselves and to other people and this is so plain to see. The story about seperate entities is what you use to cloud over what's plain and simple.

[7luminaries]

people see how they are deceiving themselves all the time Gem

No........people come to see deception within all the time. There's a difference.
In fact when they see it, they usually are thankful and do not refer to it what they saw as deception. They see it as a growth.
I believed jesus saves for 10 years and that belief took me to the next shore of my life. That belief was like a raft to get me there that was no longer needed.
James

yes...unfortunately it may seem to others as Gem puts it (LOL). but it seems to us more like WS has it, a revelation of clarity or understanding. we didn't intend to mislead ourselves. yet there was something of life...the partial revelation, the partial truth...that misled the mind.

for example, karma or obligation...you see some obligation and it steers you to believe something...in fact your belief is not wholly wrong, but perhaps you have framed it wrong. there was a lesson, you were intended to stretch, but perhaps not in the way you initially understood.

because sometimes life reveals itself to you in the living and there is no understanding ahead of the experience.

[Gem]

people see how they are deceiving themselves all the time Gem

No........people come to see deception within all the time. There's a difference.
In fact when they see it, they usually are thankful and do not refer to it what they saw as deception. They see it as a growth.
I believed jesus saves for 10 years and that belief took me to the next shore of my life. That belief was like a raft to get me there that was no longer needed.
James

deception within or deceiving themselves it's just mincing words...

[Internal Queries]

people see how they are deceiving themselves all the time Gem

No........people come to see deception within all the time. There's a difference.
In fact when they see it, they usually are thankful and do not refer to it what they saw as deception. They see it as a growth.
I believed jesus saves for 10 years and that belief took me to the next shore of my life. That belief was like a raft to get me there that was no longer needed.
James


well, it was a raft for you but a stumbling block filled maze for me so perhaps i'm a little more exacting in my disciplines. i imagine those to whom i am connected have similar standards.

[sound]

Where is the deception in knowing you are being self defeating?

[Gem]

yes...unfortunately it may seem to others as Gem puts it (LOL). but it seems to us more like WS has it, a revelation of clarity or understanding. we didn't intend to mislead ourselves. yet there was something of life...the partial revelation, the partial truth...that misled the mind.

for example, karma or obligation...you see some obligation and it steers you to believe something...in fact your belief is not wholly wrong, but perhaps you have framed it wrong. there was a lesson, you were intended to stretch, but perhaps not in the way you initially understood.

because sometimes life reveals itself to you in the living and there is no understanding ahead of the experience.

I know people lie to themselves and they lie to other people, and people are often honestly mistaken too, but the denial of the occurance of dishonesty doesn't make it go away...

[God-Like]

Then one's conscience becomes just a slave of mind...which in fact is not where the truth lies.

Yep

And whilst what we are Is a slave of the mind/senses we will never be In total expression of that .

x dazzle x

[sound]

Yep

And whilst what we are Is a slave of the mind/senses we will never be In total expression of that .

x dazzle x

Never say never ... self fulfilling prophesies and all that lol x

[Internal Queries]

Where is the deception in knowing you are being self defeating?


ah! i'm an expert at defeating myself. that's when i blame myself for being deceived, allow too long for remorse and punish myself for being an ego deceived idiot. i'm pretty hard myself but i'm getting better at forgiveness.

practice practice practice.

[God-Like]

Never say never ... self fulfilling prophesies and all that lol x

lol .

can an artist continue to paint whilst shackled to a wall within a dungeon .

x daz x

[yinepu]

I agree with WS



to lie to yourself well you know your lying right ?

But deception is not to be aware, not to know until the end when you realise youve been diceieved, ie by a con man etc... but this is still learning , a growth , the question is did you decieve yourself ? No you cant decieve yourself of something you truly know, you can try to lie to your self but not decieve yourself.

To believe in one way of life and then change and grow into another form of thought , is not lying nor decieving yourslef, but a journey that is unfolding and taking you into a different truth of what you were aware of before. Its neither lying nor decieving.

[God-Like]

hmmm that's pretty damn slippery so probably a deception via the use of abstracts. hehehe! such mechinations set off my ** alarm (which is why i'm not very good at new agey stuff).

lol . There's nothing better than a slippery fish . he hehe

Hey I.Q.

If you asked yourself who am I - who would be asking that question .

Who would be hearing that question .

x daz x

[Silver]

I agree with WS



to lie to yourself well you know your lying right ?

But deception is not to be aware, not to know until the end when you realise youve been diceieved, ie by a con man etc... but this is still learning , a growth , the question is did you decieve yourself ? No you cant decieve yourself of something you truly know, you can try to lie to your self but not decieve yourself.

To believe in one way of life and then change and grow into another form of thought , is not lying nor decieving yourslef, but a journey that is unfolding and taking you into a different truth of what you were aware of before. Its neither lying nor decieving.


I like that yin~*


Speaking of slippery things, maybe I should put out the orange cones now?
:tongue: :wink:

[Internal Queries]

Yep

And whilst what we are Is a slave of the mind/senses we will never be In total expression of that .

x dazzle x


well, i'm not looking to become mindless and senseless. all i'm seeking to do is to be as accurate a portrayal of this particular aspect of Self, tiny and inconsequential as i may be in over ALL immensity of the Self as a whole..

[BlueSky]

I'll try one more example...............a child raped and abused by her parents who were raped and abused by their parents.
This child has no choice to see the pain that undermines all that she does.
It happens though.........she does see sometimes and when she does she is on the road to being free from it.
She has no choice, she is not decieivng herself by reacting to life from the pain that she holds in her subconscious. She doesn't hold it there intentionally.

Here again it is deeper than this but it illustrates what i saying a bit.

How much of history and all time is in our subconscious. Can we be said to be intentially deceiving ourselves when we are not ourselves.

[BlueSky]

I like that yin~*


Speaking of slippery things, maybe I should put out the orange cones now?
:tongue: :wink:

yes me too but I am probably deceiving myself and only thinking I like it because i want someone to agree with me...............:D

[Internal Queries]

lol . There's nothing better than a slippery fish . he hehe

Hey I.Q.

If you asked yourself who am I - who would be asking that question .

Who would be hearing that question .

x daz x


well, i imagine i'm telepathic so i imagine when i'm asked that question i'm answering an aspect of my Self. my answer thus far has consistantly been "i don't know" so We keep working on the answer. someOne in "there" knows. i think it may be "me" but i can't even enuciate the word "me" inside myself and that inability is a clue to "who I Am". lol fun stuff. i love a good mystery.

please note the use of the word "imagine" because what i experience inside myself might be a self deception. i haven't yet determined if it's true or not.

[Silver]

ha. these threads are like a tennis match, lol. yin put your op well dyt? (ws)

[BlueSky]

well, i'm not looking to become mindless and senseless. all i'm seeking to do is to be as accutate a portrayal of this particular aspect of Self, tiny and inconsequential as i may be in over ALL immensity of the Self as a whole..

Then stop trying................stop seeking.....................and instead observe this tiny, wonderful, significant expression that we are. :smile:

[God-Like]

well, i'm not looking to become mindless and senseless. all i'm seeking to do is to be as accutate a portrayal of this particular aspect of Self, tiny and inconsequential as i may be in over ALL immensity of the Self as a whole..

Ah but what we are can remain within mind and be In touch with our senses .

Self realization occurs In mind .

It's only when what we are has become a slave to the lower mind does then the dog chase It's own tail .

x dazzle x

[Internal Queries]

yes me too but I am probably deceiving myself and only thinking I like it because i want someone to agree with me...............:D


by George, i think he's got it!

[Internal Queries]

Ah but what we are can remain within mind and be In touch with our senses .

Self realization occurs In mind .

It's only when what we are has become a slave to the lower mind does then the dog chase It's own tail .

x dazzle x


explain "lower mind", please.

[7luminaries]

Yep

And whilst what we are Is a slave of the mind/senses we will never be In total expression of that .

x dazzle x

I agree. freeing the soul from the shackles of the mind allows for heart-centred living. leading with the 4th, where the seat of the divine self resides. only when mind is removed from the throne can the real "self" beyond mind emerge to lead the self/ego/mind...as was intended all along.

however regarding the senses...it is a bit more of re-channeling I'd say. the senses too can be rewired to express divinity, as can all of our materiality. we are not intended to deny our materiality but rather to be fully grounded in the sacredness of the material.

:smile:

[7luminaries]

Ah but what we are can remain within mind and be In touch with our senses .

Self realization occurs In mind .

It's only when what we are has become a slave to the lower mind does then the dog chase It's own tail .

x dazzle x

exactly :hug3:

[BlueSky]

by George, i think he's got it!

Ha! :smile:

[yinepu]

Ok Boys and girls I found the truth !!!!


The truth is my truth and your truth are different



The lie may begin for some of you when i next say ... i respect your truth , your truth is right , and my truth is right.



LOV AND BLESSINGS TO YOU ALL

[yinepu]

ha. these threads are like a tennis match, lol. yin put your op well dyt? (ws)

dont think he saw us sg haha

[God-Like]

explain "lower mind", please.

For me the lower mind state that will contain the energies that will seduce an Individual via substitute joys and pleasures . The same applies for an Individuals fears and doubts . The lower mind will keep the Individual within a feeling of separation from what they are . The lower mind can keep the Individual In a state of false Identity . etc etc .

The sway of the lower mind / senses Is most difficult to detach from .

You cannot realize the self whilst the Individual Is saturated within this energy .

(a very brief explanation - I gotta sign off now) maybe catch up on this thread later . .

cheers I.Q.

x daz x

[Silver]

dont think he saw us sg haha


yeah people get all excited on these here threads y'know.:D

[Internal Queries]

I agree. freeing the soul from the shackles of the mind allows for heart-centred living. leading with the 4th, where the seat of the divine self resides. only when mind is removed from the throne can the real "self" beyond mind emerge to lead the self/ego/mind...as was intended all along.

however regarding the senses...it is a bit more of re-channeling I'd say. the senses too can be rewired to express divinity, as can all of our materiality. we are not intended to deny our materiality but rather to be fully grounded in the sacredness of the material.

:smile:


ugh. "divinity" is the stickiest ego trap of them all. i avoid "holiness". lol i enjoy a pretty blue Krishna pose as much as the next Id, if it occurs in spontaneity, but i don't try to invoke it or hold onto it.

[7luminaries]

ugh. "divinity" is the stickiest ego trap of them all. i avoid "holiness". lol i enjoy a pretty blue Krishna pose as much as the next Id, if it occurs in spontaneity, but i don't try to invoke it or hold onto it.

I think we may have different understandings on this, is all.
to me, the sacred is what is most real and I am that, I am not separate from it.

my body, the earth, it is all of the same sacred essence.
the spirit is not more sacred than the body or the senses.
the heavens are not more sacred than the mountain or the river.
likewise, the material is not more sacred than the spiritual, because they can only exist for us in unity.

what is false to me is any separation of divinity and materiality. divinity is not a mask of holiness. it just is sacred. and that includes everything. the fragile body and the eternal soul.

what is false is to say what we feel or see and take pleasure in can be separated from the soul and the spirit, to say it can be objectivised or fetishised.

likewise the spirit cannot take root in this life without the temple of the body, and the body has an ancient wisdom that is not so easily fooled by the mind/ego. we should care for both with the same love and tenderness.

remove the soul from the material and we are lifeless. remove the material (body) from the spirit and we are also lifeless.

that's what separation is. it's a soul-killer. literally.
In my journeys thus far, I have found that what nourishes the soul is an integrated love (of self and others), a unity of perspective. One that honours body and soul (spirit).

peace,
7L

[Internal Queries]

I think we may have different understandings on this, is all.
to me, the sacred is what is most real and I am that, I am not separate from it.

my body, the earth, it is all of the same sacred essence.
the spirit is not more sacred than the body or the senses.
the heavens are not more sacred than the mountain or the river.
likewise, the material is not more sacred than the spiritual, because they can only exist for us in unity.

what is false to me is any separation of divinity and materiality. divinity is not a mask of holiness. it just is sacred. and that includes everything. the fragile body and the eternal soul.

what is false is to say what we feel or see and take pleasure in can be separated from the soul and the spirit, to say it can be objectivised or fetishised.

likewise the spirit cannot take root in this life without the temple of the body, and the body has an ancient wisdom that is not so easily fooled by the mind/ego. we should care for both with the same love and tenderness.

remove the soul from the material and we are lifeless. remove the material (body) from the spirit and we are also lifeless.

that's what separation is. it's a soul-killer. literally.
In my journeys thus far, I have found that what nourishes the soul is an integrated love (of self and others), a unity of perspective. One that honours body and soul (spirit).

peace,
7L


cool! i can go along with that.

btw, did you know that gecko lizards mew like kittens? it's true!

[Silver]

likewise the spirit cannot take root in this life without the temple of the body, and the body has an ancient wisdom that is not so easily fooled by the mind/ego. we should care for both with the same love and tenderness.



Whoah ~ excellent, ty~*

[blackfellawhitefella]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm

I don't know why you observe people in self deception and then deny it, or why others witness deception plainly and then deny it, ...

who's denying anything .... but you ?

i (for example) accept your deceptions and my dishonesty (as already noted)
i (for example) accept your 'minds' view and it's constructions.
i (for example) accept the knowings that flow unimpeded from ?/source through heart

3 waves moving across the pacific are just that , until you broaden your view ... then it (can) be the ocean you see.

so far i see

deny, deny , deny
and
practice , practice, practice

how about ,

allow, allow , allow.


ie ... it could , possibly , be time , to 'intentfully and thankfully' get out of the way of your own tightly wound perceptions.




nuh wah doe he yaw duh

[yinepu]

remove the soul from the material and we are lifeless. remove the material (body) from the spirit and we are also lifeless.

that's what separation is. it's a soul-killer. literally.

peace,
7L

Hi 7luminaries, what do you mean by this comment ? The way it reads to me is you dont believe in life after the physical body gives way??

I dont believe in lifeless the way that i percieve youve written it , it seems almost odd with everything else you said and then this comment sits out of place.

[Silver]

If I'm not mistaken, and if I may speak for 7luminaries, it's like saying you can't have one w/o the other, yin.

[yinepu]

If I'm not mistaken, and if I may speak for 7luminaries, it's like saying you can't have one w/o the other, yin.


Hey SG yeah i get that , but when the body dies, my truth is my spirit , soul whatever word floats ya boat, lives on .... therefore withthe death of a body then the spirit is still life !

[Gem]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm



who's denying anything .... but you ?

i (for example) accept your deceptions and my dishonesty (as already noted)
i (for example) accept your 'minds' view and it's constructions.
i (for example) accept the knowings that flow unimpeded from ?/source through heart

3 waves moving across the pacific are just that , until you broaden your view ... then it (can) be the ocean you see.

so far i see

deny, deny , deny
and
practice , practice, practice

how about ,

allow, allow , allow.


ie ... it could , possibly , be time , to 'intentfully and thankfully' get out of the way of your own tightly wound perceptions.




nuh wah doe he yaw duh

You are denying it, and so are others, but I simply observe that there is truthfulness and deception.

[yinepu]

You are denying it, and so are others, but I simply observe that there is truthfulness and deception.


Yes your right there is truthfulness and deception.

However you cannot decieve your self sorry you can lie to your self but not decieve your self

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/deceive


You can decieve others, but you are lying to yourself because you are aware of the truth , you as an indivisual know the truth , but you lie to yourself ,,, you cant trick yourself, mislead yourself to think another way, you can lie though !


Ie my car is blue, i hate blue , but there is no other cars in the colour i want ,,, so i am now going to call the colour of my car INDIGO ,,,, i know the truth but im calling it indigo cause it make s me feel better.


To decieve myself would to sit there have a number of convincing arguements with myself to PROOVE to myself that my car is Indigo ...WEIRD and yes i would need psychiatric assistance if that was the case.

[Gem]

Yes your right there is truthfulness and deception.

However you cannot decieve your self sorry you can lie to your self but not decieve your self

http://www.macmillandictionary.com/dictionary/british/deceive (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .macmillandictionary.com%252Fdictionary%252Fbritis h%252Fdeceive)


You can decieve others, but you are lying to yourself because you are aware of the truth , you as an indivisual know the truth , but you lie to yourself ,,, you cant trick yourself, mislead yourself to think another way, you can lie though !


Ie my car is blue, i hate blue , but there is no other cars in the colour i want ,,, so i am now going to call the colour of my car INDIGO ,,,, i know the truth but im calling it indigo cause it make s me feel better.


To decieve myself would to sit there have a number of convincing arguements with myself to PROOVE to myself that my car is Indigo ...WEIRD and yes i would need psychiatric assistance if that was the case.

That's strange I could have sworn people actually believe the **** they tell themselves and that's how it works, first the truth presents itself, so one invents a story to obscure it and in their minds use that invention to convince themselves, they justify it.

[yinepu]

That's strange I could have sworn people actually believe the **** they tell themselves and that's how it works, first the truth presents itself, so one invents a story to obscure it and in their minds use that invention to convince themselves, they justify it.


Yeah but they are lying to themselves, they see the truth ie my car is blue, but its a lie saying its indigo.


However if you and i are looking at 2 people arguing and we are trying to make a judgement on this action... then yes you and i can see 2 different things and no matter the concincing sometimes people just dont see the same thing.... hence your truth my truth.


religion is a perfect one its not lying nor deception , its just where your truth is at as to whether or not you want to believe it or not, and neither choice is wrong. Its individual , whatever floats your boat in that instance.


Some like to however ram it down your throat as they wish , thier truth should be yours... thats a lack of maturity.... 2 kids in kindergarten wanting the same paintbrush....its mine ... no its mine !!!! each other trying to convince each other of a story so they can have the other person believe them and then relent haha.

[arive nan]

There are people who believe the lies they tell themselves. For example, someone who says, "I never compare myself to others, like other people do" and they really aren't aware that they are comparing themselves to others. The evidence that it is a lie is right there in the same statement. But they still believe that they are not comparing themselves even while they are doing so. This sort of thing happens a lot.

[Gem]

Yeah but they are lying to themselves, they see the truth ie my car is blue, but its a lie saying its indigo.


However if you and i are looking at 2 people arguing and we are trying to make a judgement on this action... then yes you and i can see 2 different things and no matter the concincing sometimes people just dont see the same thing.... hence your truth my truth.


religion is a perfect one its not lying nor deception , its just where your truth is at as to whether or not you want to believe it or not, and neither choice is wrong. Its individual , whatever floats your boat in that instance.


Some like to however ram it down your throat as they wish , thier truth should be yours... thats a lack of maturity.... 2 kids in kindergarten wanting the same paintbrush....its mine ... no its mine !!!! each other trying to convince each other of a story so they can have the other person believe them and then relent haha.

It isn't about a car's colour... in an example there are two brothers and their father leaves 50% shares as their inheritance, but one wants as much as he can get but somehow has to justify it, so he invents reasons as to why he is entitled.

The stories are entirely invented but they seem true to the greedy brother, they imply he is more worthy and his brother less worthy... and he does believe these little inventions which justify his lions share.

Your belief or my belief is OK and that's how it is, but I don't call belief 'my truth'...

[yinepu]

There are people who believe the lies they tell themselves. For example, someone who says, "I never compare myself to others, like other people do" and they really aren't aware that they are comparing themselves to others. The evidence that it is a lie is right there in the same statement. But they still believe that they are not comparing themselves even while they are doing so. This sort of thing happens a lot.


Hi arive nan, yeah i agree with what you it happens alot.. but in my book and others here , when they believe it and they see nothin=g wrong with thier behaviour its simply that they have no clue what they are doing,,, its a lesson not yet learnt... i and white shaman tried earlier in pots to explain this.

But its ok , i think gem in stuck on what im trying to say also. So for now i will leave this thread , ive said as much as i can , enjoy :hug: :hug:

[7luminaries]

Hey SG yeah i get that , but when the body dies, my truth is my spirit , soul whatever word floats ya boat, lives on .... therefore withthe death of a body then the spirit is still life !

Your spirit will continue IMO but not in your current existence of course, which requires clay to house the spirit. The spirit then suffuses the clay. This is why the whole of our lives on this plane are about finding truth in the unity and integration of our self. We have to form a healthy ego -- but then we have to learn to overcome ego in order to allow connection with our heart/spirit, with others, and with God. We have to surrender mind/ego to heart/spirit.

The body is the house of the soul and there is a reason for it. The heart's magnetic field is 5000x as strong as the brains. The heart has its own neurological system and the amount of neurotranmitted info from the heart to the brain is greater than the reverse. Unlike the brain, the heart's neurons communicate in quantum fashion...simultaneously, all at once. The information from the heart to the brain literally shapes thought and feeling, personality and character.

Heart shapes mind. Heart is the true self. And I think there will always be dissonance within ourselves until this is accepted within. Allowing the heart to lead is how we come into the truth of who we are. And of how we are. It is how we are built and how we come to know the divine. I think this is absolutely why the ancients and nearly every spiritual tradition recognises the heart as the "seat of the soul", or the divine spark.

Luckily for all the non-mystical folks, science is rapidly catching up with what the sages have known for millenia.

Here are a few links...

http://arabnews.com/saudiarabia/article150010.ece (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fara bnews.com%252Fsaudiarabia%252Farticle150010.ece)

http://subjected2subjectivity.blogspot.com/2007/06/thinking-heart.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fsub jected2subjectivity.blogspot.com%252F2007%252F06%2 52Fthinking-heart.html)

[BlueSky]

I absolutely love life. I love my life. I love my family. I can’t imagine life without them in it……..and yet I have no problem whatsoever with the thought that when this body dies everything about “me” dies with it (except where “I” continue in how I have impacted the world and the people I have encountered and loved)
The idea of a soul doesn’t sit right with me at all.
Just sharing…….James

[7luminaries]

WS...again there is the limitation of language isn't there? although it's difficult to wrap my head around, it's really probably more of a simultaneous "existence" and awareness thing, where it's just perceived in linear (ordered) time by us...

but maybe what ppl remember as memory, and even past lives, etc are just things that from a higher perspective can all be seen as happening at once.

and yet I agree you as you exist in this moment will never come again in this same form and with this same set of experiences memories etc.

I also believe nothing is lost though, in the energetic sense...and even in the sense of "recording" or knowing what has happened.

peace,
7L

[BlueSky]

WS...again there is the limitation of language isn't there? although it's difficult to wrap my head around, it's really probably more of a simultaneous "existence" and awareness thing, where it's just perceived in linear (ordered) time by us...

but maybe what ppl remember as memory, and even past lives, etc are just things that from a higher perspective can all be seen as happening at once.

and yet I agree you as you exist in this moment will never come again in this same form and with this same set of experiences memories etc.

I also believe nothing is lost though, in the energetic sense...and even in the sense of "recording" or knowing what has happened.

peace,
7L

Yes, the thought of simultaneous existence rings well with me. What else rings well with me as related to nothing being lost is the concept within The Tibetian Wheel of life that depicts energy coming and going and returning (maybe what is referred to as a soul perhaps).......until that is it no longer needs to anymore.
Who knows......... :smile:

[7luminaries]

Not me...I know nada...but since when did that stop me? :smile: LOL...........

Cheers!
7L

[BlueSky]

Not me...I know nothing...but since when did that stop me? LOL...........

Cheers!
7L

Ha!!!!!!!!!! :D

[Internal Queries]

grrrr! when we give ourselves permission to be self deceptive we're holding back our entire species and sometimes i can't help but feel that we don't have the time to pussyfoot around anymore.

[BlueSky]

grrrr! when we give ourselves permission to be self deceptive we're holding back our entire species and sometimes i can't help but feel that we don't have the time to pussyfoot around anymore.

Maybe that is exactly what you are doing by 'believing' that we are a self deceiving race. :smile:

[Internal Queries]

Maybe that is exactly what you are doing by 'believing' that we are a self deceiving race. :smile:


if you truly mean that you are the crux the problem with our self deceiving species. you won't even admit that we deceive ourselves despite all the evidence all around you. i'd have to literally blind my eyes and puncture my ear drums to avoid noticing the damages our self deceptions have wrought on ourselves and on our planet.

but okay. if you want your gestalt to keep repeating the same stupid mistakes over and over because you'd prefer to believe you can't lie and deceive youself ... go for it. ah well, that's one less self deception i'll be holding onto, that i might be able to trigger a truth recognition in the mind of some hundredth monkey but you're so perfect your lies are truths and your self deceptions don't exist.

lol and **sigh** my imaginary friends keep telling me to focus on my own gestalt because otherwise i'll just frustrate myself and irritate them with my pointless frustrations.

[BlueSky]

You really need to go back to the beginning and re-read all I have said. You seem to have mis-understood my words.

[Internal Queries]

You really need to go back to the beginning and re-read all I have said. You seem to have mis-understood my words.
no i didn't misunderstand you. you're saying that i'm holding my species back by admitting the obvious ... that we deceive ourselves. you're using some "law of attraction" that claims that the power of belief makes it real therefore if i believe we're a self deceiving species i'm the cause of our self deception. i believe we're a self deceiving species because that's what we are and we're destroying ourselves because we won't admit it and change.

dance around it all you like.




edited by SF Staff

[BlueSky]

no i didn't misunderstand you. you're saying that i'm holding my species back by admitting the obvious ... that we deceive ourselves. you're using some "law of attraction" that claims that the power of belief makes it real therefore if i believe we're a self deceiving species i'm the cause of our self deception. i believe we're a self deceiving species because that's what we are and we're destroying ourselves because we won't admit it and change.

dance around it all you like.
What I meant was to go further back and understand what I said about self deceiving.
You obviously are aware enough to make changes.................others are not.
I say be grateful for that grace and be a light for others to see past their ignorance which is not intentional.
I don't see how you can shine a light if you place blame on everyone so in that sense you are not helping the change you want to see. IMO

[Jyotir]

Hi sound,

My pov:

There is One Truth.

Everything else is derived from, dependent on, subsumed by, etc.


~ J

[in progress]

I think there are personal truths and I think there is absolute truth (which may be so simple it seems hard!). I think as we move closer to source our personal truths merge or become more similar to "others" and to absolute truth. I don't know what the absolute truth is.

As an aside and in reference to the thread that was erased, I think one never needs to defend or prove personal truths. We should all be allowed to have our truths, speak them freely and to change them in any moment.

[blackfellawhitefella]

keep looking low,

next you'll be telling me there's right and wrong



http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/cache/2010/01/lora.jpg/570_0_resize.jpg

[Gem]

The ideals people like to hold are distractions from what just happens to be, and it so happens people lie to each other and they lie to themselves, and these peculiar spiritual ideals are just a self decption that obscures one from seeing what is simply true.

There is also right and wrong because if you say a kiwi bird can fly you're wrong.

[blackfellawhitefella]

are you describing your experienced mindset or telling people HOW it is again ?


the ol right and wrong chesnut.

... lol (as irony meter hits 11 ) @ it just so happens !!!!


spiritual ideals ... hahahahaha ... your a good propagandist

i mean , that was a joke ..... yea ?



.... still believing your gunna think your way out of self deception i see .

best of british luck to you , with that one.

[sound]

Hi sound

My pov:

There is One Truth.

Everything else is derived from, dependent on, subsumed by, etc.

~ J

Hi Jyotir ... welcome to the community :)

I can go with many expressions of truth ...

[Gem]

are you describing your experienced mindset or telling people HOW it is again ?


the ol right and wrong chesnut.

... lol (as irony meter hits 11 ) @ it just so happens !!!!


spiritual ideals ... hahahahaha ... your a good propagandist

i mean , that was a joke ..... yea ?



.... still believing your gunna think your way out of self deception i see .

best of british luck to you , with that one.

It's just that kiwi birds don't fly, deception happens and idealists make up stories. I merely state the obvious.

[BlueSky]

keep looking low,


next you'll be telling me there's right and wrong




http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/cache/2010/01/lora.jpg/570_0_resize.jpg


Ha!!!!!!!!!Great pix.:smile:

[BlueSky]

It's just that kiwi birds don't fly, deception happens and idealists make up stories. I merely state the obvious.

Did anyone say in these threads that deception doesn't happen?

[sound]

I think it would be easier to deceive others than to deceive ourselves would you say ... or is one dependent on the other?

[Gem]

Did anyone say in these threads that deception doesn't happen?

No ... tey say stuff like 'it's all truth', and I'm saying there are lies, manipulation and deception.

What people say like 'it's all truth' is an ideal construct which is comporting to believe in, but the simplicity of observation reveals what just happens to be.

The former, a belief, is also called 'my truth'... but just because something is believed doesn't make it true, because there such a thing as being wrong.

One feller believed I was an imposter. 'His truth'? No. THE truth is I never impersonated anyone, it was a vicious rumour, and they were wrong about me.

This I'm saying is very plain and simple, and there isn't only truth and there is right and wrong, and no ammount of spiritually convoluted codswallop can change what is plain to see.

[BlueSky]

Yes I agree. To deceive others takes a conscious effort to do so and we may even deceive ourselves by justifying deceiving others. That happens no doubt and people lie and cheat and so on........but my point in these posts is that it is all truth until we see otherwise. We are not intentionaly deceiving ourselves unless we are consciously doing that.
And if we are not consciously doing that, then in essence it can not even be called deceiving ourselves.
I would call it ignorance or in many cases a necessary side road.

[Gem]

Yes I agree. To deceive others takes a conscious effort to do so and we may even deceive ourselves by justifying deceiving others. That happens no doubt and people lie and cheat and so on........but my point in these posts is that it is all truth until we see otherwise. We are not intentionaly deceiving ourselves unless we are consciously doing that.
And if we are not consciously doing that, then in essence it can not even be called deceiving ourselves.
I would call it ignorance or in many cases a necessary side road.

There is ignorance too, and there are just plain honest mistakes and there is malicious deception along with honesty and general open truthfulness. That just happens to be.

You see it is as such and so does everyone else.

"it's all truth' is a meaningless statement because it isn't true I was an imposter, whoever believes I was is plainly wrong. Now why would anyone see things as 'all truth?' Things are as they are.

[BlueSky]

"it's all truth' is a meaningless statement because it isn't true I was an imposter, whoever believes I was is plainly wrong. Now why would anyone see things as 'all truth?' Things are as they are. Gem

In ref to your own words earlier....to say in the example above that they were just 'stating the obvious' makes no sense..............eh?

[blackfellawhitefella]

sensational pic :smile:



... the badness in me graced into overdrive when i saw that !!!!

hahahahahahahahahaha








http://awkwardfamilyphotos.com/wp-content/uploads/cache/2010/01/lora.jpg/570_0_resize.jpg

[blackfellawhitefella]

what , (beyond mind) is untrue ?

































and , if i chuck a kiwi out of a plane .... isn't it flying ?

[sound]

The truth of the matter, for me, personally, is that i need to drag myself away from these beautiful, if not rather revealing, and, admittedly, sometimes frustrating, yet overall fulfilling, freewheeling forums, and, suggest sleep to this one self that I Am lol that last little bit was in honour of 3d and Honza now! :D :hug3:

[Gem]

what , (beyond mind) is untrue ?


































and , if i chuck a kiwi out of a plane .... isn't it flying ?

If it could fly it wouldn't need you or a plane. It just falls to the ground dead.

Kiwis can't fly, they are just born that way, and there is no way to make them fly, they simply can't. That is THE truth about kiwis. Everyone knows.

I went to the doctor today... That's THE truth, not mine not yours, it just so happens I did.

What we call 'my truth' and 'your truth' are assumptions, and the truth is we don't know, because if it were truth it is THE truth... Just like the kiwi bird can't fly and you know it.

[yinepu]

If it could fly it wouldn't need you or a plane. It just falls to the ground dead.

Kiwis can't fly, they are just born that way, and there is no way to make them fly, they simply can't. That is THE truth about kiwis. Everyone knows.

I went to the doctor today... That's THE truth, not mine not yours, it just so happens I did.

What we call 'my truth' and 'your truth' are assumptions, and the truth is we don't know, because if it were truth it is THE truth... Just like the kiwi bird can't fly and you know it.


I think he was trying to stir you up a little gem , see the lighter side of things... like watching a footy game and the footy "flying" through the air , gonna be a weird commentary when they dont say look at the way 21 took that mark he was flyyyiinggg through there.

The truth is you went to the doctors , but how do i KNOW that is the truth , it happened to you, not me and i didnt see it ? Why should i take it as truth ??

I went to the doctors the other day , should i try to get you to believe me and make it the truth and now your not allowed to deny it because it is the truth , i actually went and if you dont believe me then im going to get upset ??? Do you see what people are trying to say ??

Its cool Gem , im picking up your a little bit angry and that something has happened to you in the past or is occuring now , as this is a very touchy and emotional subject for you. I get that .

[Gem]

I think he was trying to stir you up a little gem , see the lighter side of things... like watching a footy game and the footy "flying" through the air , gonna be a weird commentary when they dont say look at the way 21 took that mark he was flyyyiinggg through there.

The truth is you went to the doctors , but how do i KNOW that is the truth , it happened to you, not me and i didnt see it ? Why should i take it as truth ??

I went to the doctors the other day , should i try to get you to believe me and make it the truth and now your not allowed to deny it because it is the truth , i actually went and if you dont believe me then im going to get upset ??? Do you see what people are trying to say ??

Its cool Gem , im picking up your a little bit angry and that something has happened to you in the past or is occuring now , as this is a very touchy and emotional subject for you. I get that .

But really a football can't fly it just sits there until you kick it. Then It falls as gravity dictates, just like a kiwi bird.

I did go to the doctor and that's just what happened. You don't believe it... that doesn't change the fact.

The last paragraph is not true. People assume that, I know... they're wrong, you're wrong.

This is a truth thread so I say what is true to demonstrate how I don't make it true, nor do you, and regardless of what people prefer to believe the truth is unaltered, because what occurs just happens to be and that's how it is.

Look at people trying to stretch it sideways and invent tricky little examples and pretend dropping a kiwi means it can fly...

It's just an example of how people try to bend things to suit their preconceived ideals... and these ideals are not truth by your means my means or any means at all.

[Jyotir]

Jyotir:
There is One Truth.
Everything else is derived from, dependent on, subsumed by, etc.

sound: I can go with many expressions of truth ...

Hi sound,

So we are in agreement then?




Also, thank you for the welcome.

~ J

[blackfellawhitefella]

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

watch the rise
observe the pattern
place the fly




truth in action

http://www.fly-fishing-discounters.com/images/Rainbow_Trout.jpg




http://youtu.be/Rl6fyhZ0G5E (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fyoutu.be%2FRl6fyhZ0G5E )

[yinepu]

But really a football can't fly it just sits there until you kick it. Then It falls as gravity dictates, just like a kiwi bird.

I did go to the doctor and that's just what happened. You don't believe it... that doesn't change the fact.

The last paragraph is not true. People assume that, I know... they're wrong, you're wrong.

This is a truth thread so I say what is true to demonstrate how I don't make it true, nor do you, and regardless of what people prefer to believe the truth is unaltered, because what occurs just happens to be and that's how it is.

Look at people trying to stretch it sideways and invent tricky little examples and pretend dropping a kiwi means it can fly...

It's just an example of how people try to bend things to suit their preconceived ideals... and these ideals are not truth by your means my means or any means at all.


So you dont have kids then ?? Lighten up gem, yes this is about your truth, my truth one truth?? Its a debatable question , not just what you believe, its about what everyone here percieves it to be , it doesnt matter how much you stick to your guns on this , people are different and people see and do different things, if you cant accept that then your going to have a very tough life.

Lighten up and have some fun on your journey gem.

[Gem]

So you dont have kids then ?? Lighten up gem, yes this is about your truth, my truth one truth?? Its a debatable question , not just what you believe, its about what everyone here percieves it to be , it doesnt matter how much you stick to your guns on this , people are different and people see and do different things, if you cant accept that then your going to have a very tough life.

Lighten up and have some fun on your journey gem.

There is no your truth and my truth there's only what happens to be... and you perceive that differently to me so we have our unique experience... and that is not something that conforms to to ideals, it's simply observed.

We simply observe that there is deception, and kiwis don't fly, that rumours which are untrue are told, that people assume things which are wrong, that my visit to the doctor occured regardless of whether someone believes it or not.

It is also observed that statements such as 'it's all truth' are ideals which do not conform to observations such as those I mentioned.

You only think I should have fun and be light, based on certain assumptions you made about my temper... and as life would have it, not everything is light hearted fun.

[yinepu]

There is no your truth and my truth there's only what happens to be... and you perceive that differently to me so we have our unique experience... and that is not something that conforms to to ideals, it's simply observed.

We simply observe that there is deception, and kiwis don't fly, that rumours which are untrue are told, that people assume things which are wrong, that my visit to the doctor occured regardless of whether someone believes it or not.

It is also observed that statements such as 'it's all truth' are ideals which do not conform to observations such as those I mentioned.

You only think I should have fun and be light, based on certain assumptions you made about my temper... and as life would have it, not everything is light hearted fun.



Then it must be a difficult road you walk especially in australia...with all of our slang , how ever do you survive with such simple terms as ... get over it...

[Gem]

Then it must be a difficult road you walk especially in australia...with all of our slang , how ever do you survive with such simple terms as ... get over it...

I think 'get over it' is pretty sound advise. It's not always easy to do though. There's people who have much harder lives than I do, but face it man... your assumptions as to my difficulties and temprament are things you imagine to be, judgements you make, and you might call them 'your truth' but that's completely different to THE truth.

[yinepu]

I think 'get over it' is pretty sound advise. It's not always easy to do though. There's people who have much harder lives than I do, but face it man... your assumptions as to my difficulties and temprament are things you imagine to be, judgements you make, and you might call them 'your truth' but that's completely different to THE truth.


Hey gem yep they are my assumptions for sure , its all good, i did re read my post and thought is sounded harsh , like a double edged sword really hey .

But aussie slang make no sense to anyone but us aussies , and to find the truth in all our words is hard.... Digger = aussie soldier ,, bangers an mash= sausages and mash potato.. people can really get thier knickers in a knott , over how we say things , but it is light hearted and it is fun and funny to us... not to others some people find us offensive , but were not are we ?? see we can go in circle after circle and always end up at the same spot.


Hows bout anice cold beer for this lovely Friday arvo gem ?? Actuallly i might have a wine whilst i light the fire .... ok gotta pick kids up first haha !

[Gem]

Hey gem yep they are my assumptions for sure , its all good, i did re read my post and thought is sounded harsh , like a double edged sword really hey .

But aussie slang make no sense to anyone but us aussies , and to find the truth in all our words is hard.... Digger = aussie soldier ,, bangers an mash= sausages and mash potato.. people can really get thier knickers in a knott , over how we say things , but it is light hearted and it is fun and funny to us... not to others some people find us offensive , but were not are we ?? see we can go in circle after circle and always end up at the same spot.


Hows bout anice cold beer for this lovely Friday arvo gem ?? Actuallly i might have a wine whilst i light the fire .... ok gotta pick kids up first haha !

Is it friday?

Well there's a reason to smile.

I actually find a lot of spiritual conjecture is a language all of its own and the more obscure something is made the more profound it sounds, but I recognize it as self deception which people invent and they bend and stretch things into shapes that fit their prefabricated box.

Life is something that just happens, and it's to be accepted as it happens to be or distorted in preconceived preferance, and there are extreme radicals who would kill all black men who see with hatred and loathing... it's not their truth at all... it's their self deception, delusion, ignorance... and I would prefer things like that did not occur, but I plainly see that they do.

I guess people will continue to make up stories and call them 'my truth' and comfort others by telling them their delusions are 'their truth', and continue the fallacy that they can't be wrong, despite everything they see to the contrary.

[yinepu]

Is it friday?

Well there's a reason to smile.

I actually find a lot of spiritual conjecture is a language all of its own and the more obscure something is made the more profound it sounds, but I recognize it as self deception which people invent and they bend and stretch things into shapes that fit their prefabricated box.

Life is something that just happens, and it's to be accepted as it happens to be or distorted in preconceived preferance, and there are extreme radicals who would kill all black men who see with hatred and loathing... it's not their truth at all... it's their self deception, delusion, ignorance... and I would prefer things like that did not occur, but I plainly see that they do.

I guess people will continue to make up stories and call them 'my truth' and comfort others by telling them their delusions are 'their truth', and continue the fallacy that they can't be wrong, despite everything they see to the contrary.


Ahh the effervescent virgo ! ha one of my best mates is a virgo , and we for the most part balance one another with our thought process, i can see where the tendancie to not let things go to easily arises.. Its your born nature to proove that logic is the only way to live life , but as you know that can get boring and stagnant at times, sometimes you dont realise this until its too late and your in a heap... again yes my assumptions, but my experience with not only my long term virgo friend but also many ,male virgos.

We can have some descent conversations now as i see its your logic that you also battle with aswell. Or if your shown the right way and with your ears and not your eyes you will really open up im sure ! Sorry Gem im just assuming .. are you having fun with my assumptions ??

[yinepu]

oh and you might take great pleasure in knowing my personal fitness trainer was a virgo !! bleep bleep a bleeping bleeeeeeeep hahaha. sadistic bleeeeepaa haha.:D

[sound]

Hi sound

So we are in agreement then?


mmm ... I feel that 'one truth' is one way of expressing an understanding of truth

[Internal Queries]

Ahh the effervescent virgo ! ha one of my best mates is a virgo , and we for the most part balance one another with our thought process, i can see where the tendancie to not let things go to easily arises.. Its your born nature to proove that logic is the only way to live life , but as you know that can get boring and stagnant at times, sometimes you dont realise this until its too late and your in a heap... again yes my assumptions, but my experience with not only my long term virgo friend but also many ,male virgos.

We can have some descent conversations now as i see its your logic that you also battle with aswell. Or if your shown the right way and with your ears and not your eyes you will really open up im sure ! Sorry Gem im just assuming .. are you having fun with my assumptions ??


oh yeah. no doubt Gem enjoys being stuffed into your Virgo preconception box and being told his logical view of the obvious is somehow detrimental to his spiritual progress. lol you're funny. (((hugs)))

[blackfellawhitefella]

the usage of 'her' is funnier.


but it was true , up until this point , wasn't it .

[Internal Queries]

the usage of 'her' is funnier.


but it was true , up until this point , wasn't it .


yeah oops. i corrected that. of course, IMO intellect doesn't have gender issues anyway.

it's interesting to note though that most folks believe i'm male until i inform them otherwise.

[Gem]

Ahh the effervescent virgo ! ha one of my best mates is a virgo , and we for the most part balance one another with our thought process, i can see where the tendancie to not let things go to easily arises.. Its your born nature to proove that logic is the only way to live life , but as you know that can get boring and stagnant at times, sometimes you dont realise this until its too late and your in a heap... again yes my assumptions, but my experience with not only my long term virgo friend but also many ,male virgos.

We can have some descent conversations now as i see its your logic that you also battle with aswell. Or if your shown the right way and with your ears and not your eyes you will really open up im sure ! Sorry Gem im just assuming .. are you having fun with my assumptions ??

I know the game you're playing... it's a snide indirect insult, subtle but clearly intended to rile me... that would validate your earlier judgements, but they are simply untrue, and this attempt to bait me will fail.

[yinepu]

I know the game you're playing... it's a snide indirect insult, subtle but clearly intended to rile me... that would validate your earlier judgements, but they are simply untrue, and this attempt to bait me will fail.


Hi Gem , no this is not my intention, i apologise if this is how my words have seemed to you , its hard to get personality into a paragraph ! Not snide , cheeky with all the innocence in it. Im trying to create a rapport with you .

its ok its not happening , im honestly not baiting you at all. again my apologies you see that in my words.

[yinepu]

oh yeah. no doubt Gem enjoys being stuffed into your Virgo preconception box and being told his logical view of the obvious is somehow detrimental to his spiritual progress. lol you're funny. (((hugs)))


No not what i meant IQ , no dis respect , i dont disrespect gem at all, im sorry my words came across that way to you also.

I do have alot of virgo friends , past and present , and those who know me , would understand my words, but of course as i said its hard to know people over the written word on a forum , i apologise.


I stand by my words , but perhaps need to re write them , but at this stage seems not worth it, as when you try over and over to talk with someone they can reject it only so many times before i cant be bothered.

My apologies IQ i hope you re read my words with a light heart instead of a defensive one in my words ,, but its cool if you do no worries at all mate :hug:

[Silver]

Hmm, yeah yin, body language is hard to come by on a forum, lol.
But hey, we should try harder to be psychic as we're reading one another's posts, hey?

[yinepu]

But hey, we should try harder to be psychic as we're reading one another's posts, hey?


Hi SG , yeah do you mean i need to choose my words better ?? I have just re read my post , and in my true style im upfront ,and if i read it as i am trying to bait someone yeah i can see the negative there, it was not my intention though ! I have opinions as much as the next person and i will fess up if i meant it how IQ and Gem read it , but no not this time woopsy never mind .

Gem and i disagree with most things, i thought through jest we could connect on a different level away from this topic , my mistake , my mistake in the approach too obviously

[blackfellawhitefella]

be gentle on yourself luvvie

i didn't see anything in your approach other than the hand of friendship extended.

i know there's at least one other who saw that as well.


stick fat with 'who you were' and 'who you are' ... it's not a sin to be yourself.








and anyway , it's my job to bait Gem.
:smile:

[yinepu]

be gentle on yourself luvvie

i didn't see anything in your approach other than the hand of friendship extended.

i know there's at least one other who saw that as well.


stick fat with 'who you were' and 'who you are' ... it's not a sin to be yourself.








and anyway , it's my job to bait Gem.
:smile:


haha thanks bfwfella , im glad you guys saw it !, Thankyou your words mean a lot ! Love ya long time ! i luv happy endings ( yes you know what im talking about) hehe

why your job ? is gem really british ??

[Silver]

Hi SG , yeah do you mean i need to choose my words better ?? I have just re read my post , and in my true style im upfront ,and if i read it as i am trying to bait someone yeah i can see the negative there, it was not my intention though ! I have opinions as much as the next person and i will fess up if i meant it how IQ and Gem read it , but no not this time woopsy never mind .

Gem and i disagree with most things, i thought through jest we could connect on a different level away from this topic , my mistake , my mistake in the approach too obviously

No, didn't mean that exactly, although we can all stand to take a 2nd look before we post. bfwf is right about no crime to be one's self, it's just you never know how some people may react to stuff. You n I should talk about 'our virgos' lol.

[blackfellawhitefella]

it's just you never know how some people may react to stuff

... and should we care


i'd nearly bet a dollar there's a multi page thread in that topic .

[Silver]

... and should we care


i'd nearly bet a dollar there's a multi page thread in that topic .


...and it would be a fun one, too. :wink:

[yinepu]

... and should we care


i'd nearly bet a dollar there's a multi page thread in that topic .

agreed haha

[blackfellawhitefella]

why your job ?


please choose an answer from one of these three

a) i'm just lucky
b) t'was a joke joyce.
c) it's an act of Love

is gem really british ??

u aussies , your all british aren't you :smile:

[yinepu]

please choose an answer from one of these three

a) i'm just lucky
b) t'was a joke joyce.
c) it's an act of Love



u aussies , your all british aren't you :smile:


NOPE danish and Irish, in fact mr fella we are more irish than british, they had to get the criminals from somewhere .

Oh and the british also stole children from many an orphanage through thier british lands , in the time of the great depresssion. The british govt said to his fellow islanders , hey we can help you , place your children in orphanages so you can try to survive , we will look after them... then as Australia ie Van Demons Land was being inhabitated , it was seen there was a shortage of children... Tallly ho said the british , we have some bloody great boat loads of kids i nIreland , england and Scotland , lets take em to Van demons land , or righty boys ship ahoy.

[yinepu]

please choose an answer from one of these three

a) i'm just lucky
b) t'was a joke joyce.
c) it's an act of Love



:

ummm ohh hang on ummm oh oh nut i dont know , um hang on phoning a friend ......................... A yep A ?? haha

[blackfellawhitefella]

lol @ at all of that.

fair dinkum.

the irish and scots are british as well basically

and the danes ... lol , they probably wanna be british :smile:





(and i cannot neither confirm or deny on answer A ... it's multichoice .... the reader knows the answer )

[yinepu]

lol @ at all of that.

fair dinkum.

the irish and scots are british as well basically

and the danes ... lol , they probably wanna be british :smile:





(and i cannot neither confirm or deny on answer A ... it's multichoice .... the reader knows the answer )


OI !! dont make me come out there with my danish irish attitude bfwf i got a big stick ya know ! thems fighting words like saying the american indians are just like the white americans. ouch !! lucky im a viking with a sense of humour ! I will continue to sit here and drink out of my big mug , no not my face my glass haha

[Internal Queries]

No not what i meant IQ , no dis respect , i dont disrespect gem at all, im sorry my words came across that way to you also.

I do have alot of virgo friends , past and present , and those who know me , would understand my words, but of course as i said its hard to know people over the written word on a forum , i apologise.


I stand by my words , but perhaps need to re write them , but at this stage seems not worth it, as when you try over and over to talk with someone they can reject it only so many times before i cant be bothered.

My apologies IQ i hope you re read my words with a light heart instead of a defensive one in my words ,, but its cool if you do no worries at all mate :hug:


oh hey! i didn't believe you were intentionally baiting Gem. i mean, that's what i found so funny. if you had been paying attention to the tone of Gem's character signiture you'd maybe had clued in to how annoying your assumptions about him would be but you didn't clue in at all. LOL

look, if you were a gestalten brother of mine i'd have more to say about your perception distortions but i doubt that you are so it's none of my business.

[yinepu]

I give you new name bfwf Heyokah !

Its sad i can read more on American Indian than i can on Aboriginal culture hey ! Hopefully that will begin to change with our younger ones . I know it is in schools but we do have along way to go to heal the past .

Or is it rude to call you mimi ?? Am i allowed to say that ? Is this the same name for the Palawa , my apologies if not :icon_frown: :icon_frown:

please educate me bfwf .

[din]

Your truth .. My truth .. One Truth?

i notice the question mark at the end of the quote

and wonder if truth is something that can be found?

or if it's something that simply IS?

[yinepu]

oh hey! i didn't believe you were intentionally baiting Gem. i mean, that's what i found so funny. if you had been paying attention to the tone of Gem's character signiture you'd maybe had clued in to how annoying your assumptions about him would be but you didn't clue in at all. LOL

look, if you were a gestalten brother of mine i'd have more to say about your perception distortions but i doubt that you are so it's none of my business.


Ok im having a blonde day , what his signature ?? and whats gestalten brother?? Ok stop laughing hahaha cmon IQ fill me in =tell me haha

[Internal Queries]

Ok im having a blonde day , what his signature ?? and whats gestalten brother?? Ok stop laughing hahaha cmon IQ fill me in =tell me haha


i don't think there's much point in me trying to explain. if you were my gestalten brother there would be no need for an explanation. you'd know to what i was referring on instinct, even if the language couldn't convey my meaning accurately. it's no poor reflection on you that you don't resonate in my gestalt. you're working from a different reality premise, a premise that is too mushy to hold the shape my gestalt is working towards. that's all.

take note that i remain skeptical of my interpretations of my spiritual experiences and my theories can and will change with incoming data.

[yinepu]

i don't think there's much point in me trying to explain. if you were my gestalten brother there would be no need for an explaination. you'd know to what i was referring on instinct, even the language couldn't convey my meaning accurately. it's no poor reflection on you that you don't resonate in my gestalt. you're working from a different reality premise, a premise that is too mushy to hold the shape my gestalt is working towards. that's all.

take note that i remain skeptical of my interpretations of my spiritual experiences and my theory can and will change with incoming data.


haha love it ! whislt your word i have not kept in my mind "gesalt" i googled it and found yes we are not brothers haha, you have an innie and i have an innie , so yes brothers not tonight ,,, also my mushiness tonight reflects 2am in the afternoon ... ok morning .. yes gesalt a bit like get the salt love, movement and perception. :D :D :hug: :hug:

nighty night IQ:hug2:

[sound]

i notice the question mark at the end of the quote

and wonder if truth is something that can be found?

or if it's something that simply IS?

Hi din ... my question mark wasn't asking can truth be found but rather how do others perceive/define/describe/express/experience Truth ... basically any other word except 'find' :D

To add ... not sure there is a whole lot of wondering going on there for you in regards to whether truth can be found ... lets be truthful now din lol :hug3:

[din]

Hi din ... my question mark wasn't asking can truth be found but rather how do others perceive/define/describe/express/experience Truth ... basically any other word except 'find' :D

To add ... not sure there is a whole lot of wondering going on there for you in regards to whether truth can be found ... lets be truthful now din lol :hug3:

hi sound,

well, the truth is, there's not a whole lot going on here on the conceptual level, so to even talk about truth or looking for it, or not looking for it, is just moving away from the simplicity of what is

i like what henry david thoreau says:

"simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!" :smile:

[sound]

hi sound,

well, the truth is, there's not a whole lot going on here on the conceptual level, so to even talk about truth or looking for it, or not looking for it, is just moving away from the simplicity of what is

i like what henry david thoreau says:

"simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!" :smile:
True, if you think in those terms lol ... 'tis nice to share though would you agree din?

[nightowl]

There are facts and evidence. But dont let those get in the way of a good opinion..

Truths are subjective. they are subject to beliefs popular at the time.

I dont believe a wise thing is to solely base your ideas of truth on the experiences (writings) of others.

You will know a truth when you experience it yourself. They will always be your own.

Some say God is not real For them they have never experienced God in a way that would convince them otherwise. For them their concept of God is others writings. So they go round and round in circles from one idea to another looking to find God. When you are individually touched spiritually, an idea suddenly gets thrust into the category of unmistakable truth. We then are baffled why others do not see it too, but they may not because it is not their time yet.

I know God is real because I have experienced god in my life at a supernatural level. Yeah there is something there. That is my truth. The only truth I can offer anyone else on this is my word of not lying about that it all exists. I talk to others who know this too, It is our shared truth, It joins us.

I have to say this is the closet to what I believe, and it is nice to here it expressed by another. Thanks lightworkerAu for putting it into words.

nightowl

[din]

Originally Posted by lightworkerAu
There are facts and evidence. But dont let those get in the way of a good opinion..

Truths are subjective. they are subject to beliefs popular at the time.

I dont believe a wise thing is to solely base your ideas of truth on the experiences (writings) of others.

You will know a truth when you experience it yourself. They will always be your own.

Some say God is not real For them they have never experienced God in a way that would convince them otherwise. For them their concept of God is others writings. So they go round and round in circles from one idea to another looking to find God. When you are individually touched spiritually, an idea suddenly gets thrust into the category of unmistakable truth. We then are baffled why others do not see it too, but they may not because it is not their time yet.

I know God is real because I have experienced god in my life at a supernatural level. Yeah there is something there. That is my truth. The only truth I can offer anyone else on this is my word of not lying about that it all exists. I talk to others who know this too, It is our shared truth, It joins us.



I have to say this is the closet to what I believe, and it is nice to here it expressed by another. Thanks lightworkerAu for putting it into words.

nightowl

as you keep getting closer and closer to the truth, all your ideas and perceptions will dissipate in the intensity of the light that you are

[din]

True, if you think in those terms lol ... 'tis nice to share though would you agree din?

i seem to be sharing so i guess you're right :D

[Gem]

Hi Gem , no this is not my intention, i apologise if this is how my words have seemed to you , its hard to get personality into a paragraph ! Not snide , cheeky with all the innocence in it. Im trying to create a rapport with you .

its ok its not happening , im honestly not baiting you at all. again my apologies you see that in my words.

maybe not, but star signs are a belief which allows astrologers to make judgements about peoples nature which are untrue... they probably call astrology 'my truth' but I call it a belief. People are as they are, not as an astrologer would prefer them.

It's like the kiwi thing all over again... but a different scenario... the astrologer says 'virgo's are such and such types of people' then they stretch what they observe into such a shape so it will fit into the 'Virgo box' they create. In the case of the kiwi bird they invent a box called 'it's all truth' and invent scenerios where it seems a kiwi might fly by placing it in the air... falling.

Life doesn't fit the boxes and 'my truths' are boxes.

This is not a logical analysis, quite the contrary, it is saying that life just happens to be this way, and when pigs fly there is 'my truth'.

[yinepu]

maybe not, but star signs are a belief which allows astrologers to make judgements about peoples nature which are untrue... they probably call astrology 'my truth' but I call it a belief. People are as they are, not as an astrologer would prefer them.

It's like the kiwi thing all over again... but a different scenario... the astrologer says 'virgo's are such and such types of people' then they stretch what they observe into such a shape so it will fit into the 'Virgo box' they create. In the case of the kiwi bird they invent a box called 'it's all truth' and invent scenerios where it seems a kiwi might fly by placing it in the air... falling.

Life doesn't fit the boxes and 'my truths' are boxes.

This is not a logical analysis, quite the contrary, it is saying that life just happens to be this way, and when pigs fly there is 'my truth'.



Gem your truth is the ONLY way !! I think everyone has seen these words from you over and over ,,, change the record.

Your ignorance is astounding, Astrology doesnt have truth to it ?? So the entire egyptian , greek etc cultures are all based on lies because you have not experienced something , therefore its all lies.

Funny man.

[yinepu]

aaaand again Gem , you proove what ive been saying as well as others here, that if you have not learnt something then its not your truth , its a lesson waiting to be learnt.

Its ok you dont get it . But im a little tired of trying to put out a hand to you and you continually disregard it. My lesson learnt with you . Thankyou.

[blackfellawhitefella]

.heyokah.

yes .... the (seemingly) holy madness.

most beneficial to community.


bfwf bows head.
xx

[blackfellawhitefella]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/TAROT_EXCUSE.jpg/220px-TAROT_EXCUSE.jpg

[Internal Queries]

Gem your truth is the ONLY way !! I think everyone has seen these words from you over and over ,,, change the record.

Your ignorance is astounding, Astrology doesnt have truth to it ?? So the entire egyptian , greek etc cultures are all based on lies because you have not experienced something , therefore its all lies.

Funny man.


you may, as you wish, call abstract ideas "your truth"/"my truth" but the fact remains that tossing a kiwi bird up in the air so to watch it it drops back to the ground is not seeing a kiwi bird fly.

if you want to put yourself, your family, your friends and aquaintences into astrology boxes and lable them "Virgo", "Taurus", "Aries" etc and believe that stars influence your and their behavior that's fine, that's "your truth". but the fact remains that "your truth" can not contain and confine the personalities and spiritual truths of others in your concept boxes. there is no such thing as a "typical Virgo" or a "typical Scorpio" and if you see typical anything it's merely because you perceive types via the lense of "your truth".

[blackfellawhitefella]

forget the dodo. :)

it's dead from landing injuries


the other question that was asked at the same time hasn't rated a mention.


what (outside of mind) is untrue ?

[Internal Queries]

what (outside of mind) is untrue ?

i'm not sure i understand your question. clarify please.

[sound]

what (outside of mind) is untrue ?

It is an interesting question, which i am not sure i understand fully either ... I'll give it a go though bfwf lol ... All that does not exist

[Gem]

aaaand again Gem , you proove what ive been saying as well as others here, that if you have not learnt something then its not your truth , its a lesson waiting to be learnt.

Its ok you dont get it . But im a little tired of trying to put out a hand to you and you continually disregard it. My lesson learnt with you . Thankyou.

I think I answered every post you made.

I don't know anything beyond the observations I make, and I can't draw any conclusions from them because they imply nothing. Life just happens to be the way it is and all I can do is observe, so seeing is believing and making 'boxes' is assuming.

When a child is told the santa story he believes it because of trust, but that doesn't mean santa actually occurs, it's roleplay and pretence, it's not the truth.

The trust is what is important though, and there is truthfulness and dishonesty. Truthfulness cultivates trust dishonesty destroys it...

It's all to do with honesty and trust, not idealizms and spiritual beliefs.

[blackfellawhitefella]

i'm not for a second tryn to make out i understand (have 'minded' it out ) the reality of the question

i just see the question
... from my gut feel leading me there

i personally can't see or feel any untruth.

i don't feel it on the launching pad of quiet mind ,
i don't feel it in daily social interaction

... i can 'see' some sort of perverted created story about energy interaction dressed up and passed off as right and wrong though

its not my vibrational ease , so i ignore it.


suppose it comes down again , to , which wolf are you feeding / which direction are you looking in

[sound]

Yes ... i understand what you are saying there bfwf ... it is word play for the most part (my response i mean) ...

[Lisa]

i like what henry david thoreau says:

"simplicity, simplicity, simplicity!" :smile:

Not to split hairs, but it's "simplify, simplify".
:icon_tongue:


Our life is frittered away by detail... simplify, simplify.
- Henry David Thoreau

[Internal Queries]

self honesty is simple enough.

do i believe something because i WANT to believe it or do i believe it because it because it's true?

[Gem]

i'm not for a second tryn to make out i understand (have 'minded' it out ) the reality of the question

i just see the question
... from my gut feel leading me there

i personally can't see or feel any untruth.

i don't feel it on the launching pad of quiet mind ,
i don't feel it in daily social interaction

... i can 'see' some sort of perverted created story about energy interaction dressed up and passed off as right and wrong though

its not my vibrational ease , so i ignore it.


suppose it comes down again , to , which wolf are you feeding / which direction are you looking in

It's simpler that that... I look at the world and see terrible things and wonderful and also I see the truth and the bullpoo.

People just deny what happens to be and look away, so nothing changes, babies are still bombed, inocense desicrated, and worse and worse... and looking the other way doesn't means it goes away.

Then the vice versa is equally true... all that doesn't make the flowers less beautiful.

[sound]

self honesty is simple enough.

do i believe something because i WANT to believe it or do i believe it because it because it's true?

Which raises another interesting question IQ ... can a truth be believed or is it simply experienced?

[Internal Queries]

Which raises another interesting question IQ ... can a truth be believed or is it simply experienced?


truth can be observed and proven to be factual. what we spiritually experience is subjective, open to interpretation and can only be a "my truth", which is always questionable unless proven to be true.

my spiritual experiences only cause me to create theories via interpretation of those experiences ... not beliefs. it is my fervent desire to believe only that which is true so my spiritual theories will not become beliefs until they are proven to be true.

[sound]

What about we/us/life as the truth we experience ... proof doesn't get much more 'exact' than that of existence ... another thought that comes to mind are the many scientific facts which turn out to be incorrect when, after deeper research, a newer set of facts become available. Please know i am thinking aloud with these questions, inspired by what you have shared ...

[Jyotir]

Hi sound,

You said previously that I can go with many expressions of truth
Then, I feel that 'one truth' is one way of expressing an understanding of truth

I am finding the latter to be somewhat ambiguous in light of the former.
As it stands I could read it (including implications) a few different ways:


There is one truth, but many ways of, "...expressing an understanding of...", 'it', any of which may or may not not be 'true'.

There is only one truth: the many "way[s] of expressing an understanding...".

Any "expressing an understanding" is a truth.

There can be only "one way of expressing an understanding of truth.", exclusive of all other ways.

Or, (the reason I asked if we were in agreement): There is One Truth (Absolute), and all other realities, expressions, understandings, are relative truths - all dependent on the One Truth, yet also 'true' in their own way (relative sense). In that case even so-called 'factual untruth' is still a truth (but not absolute).

Could you please clarify? Thanks.

~ J

[sound]

Hi Jyotir

I will definitely come back to your question tomorrow and attempt to clarify .. it is almost 2.30am here and my thoughts are fuzzy now. Thank you for taking the time and energy to respond ... i look forward to revisiting :hug3:

[din]

Not to split hairs, but it's "simplify, simplify".
:icon_tongue:



wrong quote dearest, but i'm glad you like Henry too! :D

“Simplicity, simplicity, simplicity! I say, let your affairs be as two or three, and not a hundred or a thousand instead of a million count half a dozen, and keep your accounts on your thumb-nail.”

Henry David Thoreau

[blackfellawhitefella]

I look at the world and see terrible things and wonderful and also I see the truth and the bullpoo.

People just deny what happens to be and look away, so nothing changes, babies are still bombed, inocense desicrated, and worse and worse... and looking the other way doesn't means it goes away.


I look at the world and see .... a 'mental' game of right and wrong

it is the same world

People just deny what happens to be and look away,

not necessarily.

there are two ways to look (towards the subject matter) ... it's highest or lowest expression

.... looking away is the third option


so nothing changes,

hmmmmm

... the observer plays his part in 'constant change' just by observing

... the observer , holds/creates the space for neutral , wrong or right to mirror back It's reality , doesn't it ?



babies are still bombed, inocense desicrated, and worse and worse... and looking the other way doesn't means it goes away.

does jumping up and down with a 'this is wrong' mindset , make the wrong you see , go away ?

[Prokopton]

People just deny what happens to be and look away, so nothing changes, babies are still bombed, inocense desicrated, and worse and worse... and looking the other way doesn't means it goes away.

Then the vice versa is equally true... all that doesn't make the flowers less beautiful.

Excellent, Gem!

Of course, only a cynic would point out that human action is required for the first lot, whereas nature alone produces the second.

Still, I have seen the good side of humanity rather a lot recently as well. It doesn't really make the news of course.

The sense of horror we can have at our own actions can itself also have important consequences for our decisions, I think.

Right and wrong for humans are neither mental nor a game. "Humans have a biological need for righteousness" -- Glenn Morris.

[sound]

Ok ... I feel there is simply truth and infinite expressions of It ... like love. I don't feel that it needs a number. Some, like yourself, choose to express their understanding of truth as 'one truth' ... I am not sure if that has made it any clearer for you Jyotir? ...


Hi sound,

You said previously that ' I can go with many expressions of truth-(sound)
Then,I feel that 'one truth' is one way of expressing an understanding of truth-(sound)


I am finding the latter to be somewhat ambiguous in light of the former.
As it stands I could read it (including implications) a few different ways:


There is one truth, but many ways of, "...expressing an understanding of...", 'it', any of which may or may not not be 'true'.

There is only one truth: the many "way[s] of expressing an understanding...".

Any "expressing an understanding" is a truth.

There can be only "one way of expressing an understanding of truth.", exclusive of all other ways.

Or, (the reason I asked if we were in agreement): There is One Truth (Absolute), and all other realities, expressions, understandings, are relative truths - all dependent on the One Truth, yet also 'true' in their own way (relative sense). In that case even so-called 'factual untruth' is still a truth (but not absolute).

Could you please clarify? Thanks.

~ J

[Jyotir]

Hi sound,

Yes, thank you.

sound: "...there is simply truth and infinite expressions of It"

I think this means we are generally in agreement (barring any semantic entanglements!).

What you are calling "simply truth - It", I call One Truth. All other "infinite expressions", derive from and are dependent for their possibility and existence on the One Truth. Additionally (for me) the existence of an absolute 'One Truth', is therefore not exclusive of infinite other truths - even falsehood - derived from it in whatever way or form. That one issue (that falsehood is also a truth) is often a major stumbling block in the acceptance of the construct because it would seem contradictory or mutually exclusive.

What do you think?


~ J

[Xan]

Can there be such a thing as the Absolute Truth in eternity? Absolute implies an ending of some kind, again a limit.
"Absolute" does not necessarily mean an ending or limit, but it indicates that which is unchanging and eternal.

If we are One, then everyone else's truth is our Truth too.
In the world of unique individuals and relative truths there is great variety, all arising within the absolute pure Truth of oneness... universal and the same in everyone.

But discussing our ideas about relative truths and absolute Truth doesn't mean much at all... until we begin to experience universal beingness for ourselves.


Xan

[sound]

Yes that resonates ... I understand what you have touched on there in regards to truth being all encompassing, including the truth that falsehoods exist ... that is how i am able to rationalize it lol ... I made an interesting typo just now which I chose to correct ... by accident, I wrote falsegods instead of falsehoods lol



Hi sound,

Yes, thank you.



I think this means we are generally in agreement (barring any semantic entanglements!).

What you are calling "simply truth - It", I call One Truth. All other "infinite expressions", derive from and are dependent for their possibility and existence on the One Truth. Additionally (for me) the existence of an absolute 'One Truth', is therefore not exclusive of infinite other truths - even falsehood - derived from it in whatever way or form. That one issue (that falsehood is also a truth) is often a major stumbling block in the acceptance of the construct because it would seem contradictory or mutually exclusive.

What do you think?


~ J

[psychoslice]

Your truth .. My truth .. One Truth is not the truth, the truth has already been lost within the words of the sentence.

[sound]

Your truth .. My truth .. One Truth is not the truth, the truth has already been lost within the words of the sentence.
It isn't a statement ... just a title for a thread to encourage discussion ... isn't that what forums are for?

[psychoslice]

It isn't a statement ... just a title for a thread to encourage discussion ... isn't that what forums are for?
Hi Sound, no I wasn't having a go at your title, i was just using the title as an example, sorry if it came over that way.:redface: :hug3:

[sound]

Thats ok PS ... I am not precious about the thread title lol ... my response still stands though ... the words are just symbols which attract attention to the fact that a discussion space surrounding our individual perceptions of truth has been created ... to be precise lol ... thats the truth contained in the title i guess one could say ...

[Internal Queries]

What about we/us/life as the truth we experience ... proof doesn't get much more 'exact' than that of existence ... another thought that comes to mind are the many scientific facts which turn out to be incorrect when, after deeper research, a newer set of facts become available. Please know i am thinking aloud with these questions, inspired by what you have shared ...


well, my mundane life is exact enough but what i experience spiritually is pretty "out there" so there's nothing exact about it. i desire truth but i what i'm experiencing could be the exact opposite of truth ... delusion. no amount of belief in a delusion makes a delusion true.

and yeah ... scientific "facts" can turn out to be incorrect and theories change with new data. this is the same approach i take to my spirituality.

[Lisa]

wrong quote dearest, but i'm glad you like Henry too! :D

Two ducks of a feather. I live on Waldens pond. :duckie: :duckie: :smile:

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Your truth .. My truth .. One Truth? (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=207985#post207985)

I understand 'truth' as its own untruth.. the confusion of its meaning and the distractions of its debated relevance resolve nothing, and rob us of being fully present for that which 'is' relevant..

Be well..

[Internal Queries]

Greetings..

Your truth .. My truth .. One Truth? (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=207985#post207985)

I understand 'truth' as its own untruth.. the confusion of its meaning and the distractions of its debated relevance resolve nothing, and rob us of being fully present for that which 'is' relevant..

Be well..


if discovering and experiencing "truth" isn't relevent what "is"? lol

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

if discovering and experiencing "truth" isn't relevent what "is"? lol
Letting go of whatever 'value' you assign to turth is relevant.. pay attention to what 'is', not what you 'think' truth is..

Be well..

[7luminaries]

"Absolute" does not necessarily mean an ending or limit, but it indicates that which is unchanging and eternal.


In the world of unique individuals and relative truths there is great variety, all arising within the absolute pure Truth of oneness... universal and the same in everyone.

But discussing our ideas about relative truths and absolute Truth doesn't mean much at all... until we begin to experience universal beingness for ourselves.


Xan
:smile:
Agreed.

Interestingly, it's with that experience and awareness of Oneness (i.e., the eternal or absolute Truth) that we begin to appreciate and treasure the sacredness and beauty of each individual, relative experience...understanding that all in fact is new again to us in each moment.

Along with the humbling awareness that every person is in fact a universe unto themselves, and to every interaction, this universe of private multitudes brings its silent witnesses, its teachers, its children and its wounded soldiers, and commands your respect and your honour.

The mystics and the sages say that God creates the universe anew each day. That the universe is created anew in each moment.
It is that God-like/childlike/innocent trust, love, wonder and appreciation of the beauty and uniqueness of all life that one of the greatest blessings of awakening.

Peace & blessings,
7L

[Internal Queries]

Greetings..


Letting go of whatever 'value' you assign to turth is relevant.. pay attention to what 'is', not what you 'think' truth is..

Be well..


lol TzuJanLi, but i do value the truth because truth is what "is" no matter what i may think it is.

see? i can run in tight little word circles too.

[yinepu]

Greetings..


pay attention to what 'is', not what you 'think' truth is..

Be well..


I agree, i am guilty of this too, and im starting to see there is way to much thinking going on this forum and debating instead of teacher, student, developing, meditating and being.


And please dont take offense anybody who reads this i did start out the thread with I am guilty of this too. Thankyou

[LIFE]

see? i can run in tight little word circles too.

At some point, all becomes circular. This is exactly the predicament that the eastern philosophies have tried to extricate humanity from.

We, as humans, try to describe Reality, but being within In as It, our descriptions inevitably end up being circular.

Saying something like "what 'is' is what 'is"...is the sheer essence of circularity.

Don't chase your tail perpetually. You'll never catch it.

[Internal Queries]

I agree, i am guilty of this too, and im starting to see there is way to much thinking going on this forum and debating instead of teaching, student, developing, meditating and being.


And please dont take offense anybody who reads this i did start out the thread with I am guilty of this too. Thankyou


since message boards are text oriented they require one to THINK so to put ones meaning into words. IMO, there is plenty of teaching, studenting and developing going on. and if you feel guilty about not meditating best get offline because it's pretty darn difficult to meditate via a message board. lol

[Internal Queries]

At some point, all becomes circular. This is exactly the predicament that the eastern philosophies have tried to extricate humanity from.

We, as humans, try to describe Reality, but being within In as It, our descriptions inevitably end up being circular.

Saying something like "what 'is' is what 'is"...is the sheer essence of circularity.

Don't chase your tail perpetually. You'll never catch it.


lol ((hugs)) but pffft! you're on a spiritual forum message board, a place where chasing ones tail is the main event.

[yinepu]

since message boards are text oriented they require one to THINK so to put ones meaning into words. IMO, there is plenty of teaching, studenting and developing going on. and if you feel guilty about not meditating best get offline because it's pretty darn difficult to meditate via a message board. lol


Thats ok IQ you didnt read my post properly , i didnt say im feeling guilty about anything. And thankyou for your advice , i will get off line and meditate instead thanks , i wonder why i didnt think about that ,cheers teacher.

[LIFE]

lol ((hugs)) but pffft! you're on a spiritual forum message board, a place where chasing ones tail is the main event.

Yeah, 'tis true.

Learning to stop chasing your tail through the knowledge that you can never reach it is, IMO, is one of the ultimate 'goals' of spirituality.

Stop trying to reach "ultimate reality" and LET GO...

The spiritual seeker a fish swimming around desperately looking for water!

I find that most spiritual practices and philosophies just encourage more fervent 'chasing' (otherwise known as seeking) and exacerbate the original predicament, thus being entirely counter-productive.

[Xan]

Interestingly, it's with that experience and awareness of Oneness (i.e., the eternal or absolute Truth) that we begin to appreciate and treasure the sacredness and beauty of each individual, relative experience...understanding that all in fact is new again to us in each moment.

Along with the humbling awareness that every person is in fact a universe unto themselves, and to every interaction, this universe of private multitudes brings its silent witnesses, its teachers, its children and its wounded soldiers, and commands your respect and your honour.

The mystics and the sages say that God creates the universe anew each day. That the universe is created anew in each moment.

It is that God-like/childlike/innocent trust, love, wonder and appreciation of the beauty and uniqueness of all life that one of the greatest blessings of awakening.


Yes... the paradox of universal awareness that gives us appreciation for all that is personal and unique.

I add... We create our reality anew each moment through where we give our attention... where we come from in ourselves.


Xan

[Internal Queries]

Yeah, 'tis true.

Learning to stop chasing your tail through the knowledge that you can never reach it is, IMO, is one of the ultimate 'goals' of spirituality.

Stop trying to reach "ultimate reality" and LET GO...

The spiritual seeker a fish swimming around desperately looking for water!

I find that most spiritual practices and philosophies just encourage more fervent 'chasing' (otherwise known as seeking) and exacerbate the original predicament, thus being entirely counter-productive.


well, since "I" have nothing else to do in eternity i puzzel over the puzzel as a kind of hobby ... a very sincere hobby but a hobby none the less.

[Xan]

well, since "I" have nothing else to do in eternity i puzzel over the puzzel as a kind of hobby ... a very sincere hobby but a hobby none the less.

Oh my, IQ... There's so very much more to do in eternity than mentally puzzling. Just ask the universe to show you this More. :icon_eek:


Xan

[Internal Queries]

Oh my, IQ... There's so very much more to do in eternity than mentally puzzling. Just ask the universe to show you this More. :icon_eek:


Xan

yeah yeah yeah and that's why i'm here. i'm one of the endless variations of the "I Am" which has asked the universe to show It more. and now as the I Am being shown more (via my Id) it's part of that showing that i be myself. being myself means i explore the mind with which i'm perceiving what I Am is being shown. the way a mind works, it's version of truth, what and how it perceives denotes the individual Id through which the "I Am" experiences the universe. what else does the "I Am" have to do with eternity but to manifest Selfhood, experience experiences and maybe even think about what It experiences since thinking is part of It's experience as human. i'm not going to eschew my mind when it is the very tool by which i perceive reality, through which the I Am experiences the universe.

of course, this is all just theory. the I Am may only imagine It exists and you and i may only be figments of It's imagination. if that were in any way true then it's no wonder i'm seeking a believable truth as it would reflect the insecurity of a Mind that only imagines It's own existance. lol

[zipzip]

Yeah, 'tis true.

Learning to stop chasing your tail through the knowledge that you can never reach it is, IMO, is one of the ultimate 'goals' of spirituality.

Stop trying to reach "ultimate reality" and LET GO...

The spiritual seeker a fish swimming around desperately looking for water!

I find that most spiritual practices and philosophies just encourage more fervent 'chasing' (otherwise known as seeking) and exacerbate the original predicament, thus being entirely counter-productive.


Life, very well said.

zipzip

[Xan]

yeah yeah yeah and that's why i'm here. i'm one of the endless variations of the "I Am" which has asked the universe to show It more. and now as the I Am being shown more (via my Id) it's part of that showing that i be myself. being myself means i explore the mind with which i'm perceiving what I Am is being shown.

Well yes, IQ... exploring the mind is interesting and I've done plenty of it myself.

But I'm talking about opening to the More beyond the body-mind... the vast exquisite realms between the pure I Am essence and all this perceiving, thinking and interpreting. More internal yet, in other words.


Xan

[Internal Queries]

Well yes, IQ... exploring the mind is interesting and I've done plenty of it myself.

But I'm talking about opening to the More beyond the body-mind... the vast exquisite realms between the pure I Am essence and all this perceiving, thinking and interpreting. More internal yet, in other words.


Xan


oh i imagine "exquisite realms". they even seem real while i'm "there" but of course i always end up back in this body shrugging and saying "and so? what else?". and if i spent any more time in internal exploration i'd appear, for all intents and purposes, comotose. lol

oh well, gotta give the I Am the experience of weeding the garden again.

[din]

Two ducks of a feather. I live on Waldens pond. :duckie: :duckie: :smile:

you quack me up! :D

[din]

I agree, i am guilty of this too, and im starting to see there is way to much thinking going on this forum and debating instead of teacher, student, developing, meditating and being.


And please dont take offense anybody who reads this i did start out the thread with I am guilty of this too. Thankyou

too much thinking going on in this forum?

and debating?

not enough teacher, student, developing, meditating and being?

so what is the purpose of this forum?

isn't it just to "chew the fat"?

have fun "sharing" as sound put it?

or do you want it to be meatier and have more truth in it , or at least pointing towards the truth and leading to it?