The Matrix films

[Space_Man]

http://matrix.thescarymonkeyshow.com/images/architect.jpg

(The Architect): "Hope. It is the quintessential human delusion, simultaneously the source of your greatest strength and your greatest weakness."

[imported_devolution]

Perhaps the greatest weakness of hope is when it becomes an expectation...

[Poppies]

Perhaps the greatest weakness of hope is when it becomes an expectation...

Devolution: Ahhhh! but, surely, then it's no longer "hope"! :wink:

I welcome anyone to join-in.
Yes please, Mr Space_Man Sir!!!!

I'd love to discuss the Matrix films!

I love the films! I've learnt so much from them, and there's so much more to learn! :)

[Space_Man]

Let

[imported_devolution]

Whether intentional or not, I feel The Matrix highlighted the current plight of how we live our lives today...

We are 'asleep', most of us, thinking that what we see with our own eyes is all there is. We focus mainly on the physical and material, and few of us really take the spiritual side seriously :(.
If only people saw beyond the surface more, saw what truly, really mattered in this life, then we wouldn't feel so imprisoned in our physical bodies - in our lives... We wouldn't have to look to TV, Video Games, Drugs, Alcohol, Smoking to blot out that nagging sensation of there being something more, that there is something we are missing - we would instead be exploring it...

Sometimes, it can be hard to know the truths, and follow the spiritual path - that guy in the restaurant springs to mind - the one who said 'Ignorance is Bliss', deftly eating a steak, when he wanted to back to the Matrix in exchange for giving up his comrades. I guess he highlights the plight of some people on the path - sometimes it's just easier to 'fit in' with the known, rather than be troubled of the greater unknown/unseen. But then of course, there is no true fulfilment...

There is so much symbolism and imagery in The Matrix, that discussions could go on for hours, days, weeks, months, years ;) about how it relates to spiritual ideas and beliefs...

The 'freedom fighters' could easily be akin to those today who try and open people's eyes up, with books, films, healing, talks etc. - trying to free them from the binds of the material way...

[Space_Man]

Sometimes, it can be hard to know the truths, and follow the spiritual path - that guy in the restaurant springs to mind - the one who said 'Ignorance is Bliss', deftly eating a steak, when he wanted to back to the Matrix in exchange for giving up his comrades.
Yes: Cypher.

That was interesting, wasn

[imported_devolution]

I've seen all of them, but probably like most people, only really found the first one to be 'groundbreaking', as it were.
The others had their own interesting concepts like the 'Architect' and more... But I feel the sequels were mainly that... Just sequels to cash in... I'm sure they could have easily condensed both films into one... There was far too much trundling and eye-candy...

[sashwah]

I thought it was pretty damn good actually, although i must admit.. i lost it a bit when the Architect was explaining what had been going on. I thought well, what does it matter then, if we just keep coming back to the same point.. but maybe i missed it... the point. I agree with the religious aspects of it.. Zion? How could you not! However, i thought it was a jolly good jape and i've wanted to be Trinity ever since! ( alway's fancied Keanu anyway... especially in all that leather!)
You all seem to have watched it a lot more than i have, i may even blow the dust off it this week and settle in to watch it... with a notepad an pencil! Lol!
Sorry for lowering the tone of the discussion... i came over all peculiar!

[Space_Man]

I've seen all of them, but probably like most people, only really found the first one to be 'groundbreaking', as it were.
The others had their own interesting concepts like the 'Architect' and more... But I feel the sequels were mainly that... Just sequels to cash in... I'm sure they could have easily condensed both films into one... There was far too much trundling and eye-candy...
Well, let

[sashwah]

O.k, i did miss the point. |However, i'm not going to get into a discussion right now because i wouldn't know what i was talking about. I'm going to watch the films, i have them all so i might do a marathon run at it. You may not hear from me tomorrow until i come on late at night babbling like a crazy person..... You have been warned! :glasses5: .

[Poppies]

You may not hear from me tomorrow until i come on late at night babbling like a crazy person..... You have been warned!
:lol: That's okay!!!! I babble all the time!!!! :lol:

[quote=devolution]I've seen all of them, but probably like most people, only really found the first one to be 'groundbreaking', as it were.
The others had their own interesting concepts like the 'Architect' and more... But I feel the sequels were mainly that... Just sequels to cash in... I'm sure they could have easily condensed both films into one... There was far too much trundling and eye-candy...
Well, let

[Space_Man]

I reckon that the Architect is in effect, the Creator God...
Then, how about this character, Poppies:

http://www.tennscreen.com/tips/matrix/oracle.jpg

Any thoughts about her; her relationship to The Architect, as well as to Neo?

[Poppies]

I reckon that the Architect is in effect, the Creator God...
Then, how about this character, Poppies:

http://www.tennscreen.com/tips/matrix/oracle.jpg

Any thoughts about her; her relationship to The Architect, as well as to Neo?

ARCHITECT: If I am the Father of the Matrix, then she would undoubtedly be its Mother.

NEO: The Oracle.

Do you know what? I don't know what to 'call' her... maybe I should, but I can't remember off-hand if she's been given a 'label'............ As in the Architect is the "Creator God"...

The Architect is God as we see him in the creation stories of Genesis (there are two creation stories)..... He created the Matrix and now sits back in his comfy chair watching everything unfold on his TV sets. Just like our early Genesis God, the Architect cautioned his charges against too much knowledge. Both Gods say, "Here is a perfect world for you to live in. Just don't start thinking too hard about why you're here, or where the rain comes from, or basically how any of this works."

This is the Creator God, the Father God.

She is the Mother-God.....

She is, in effect, Neo's 'mother':She "birthed" the Neo routine into the Matrix. It is her special child (and perhaps by extension Neo is her child).

[Space_Man]

Say more about the relationship between The Oracle and The Architect; are they

[Poppies]

[quote=Space_Man]Say more about the relationship between The Oracle and The Architect; are they

[Space_Man]

[quote=Poppies]

[Poppies]

[quote=Space_Man]Let

[Space_Man]

She 'birthed' Neo; She introduced the cycle of life and death - death and rebirth....... growth.....
Yes, and

[DASA]

Here's some links you might like on the Matrix as viewed from the philosophies of Plato and the Vedas of India:

http://www.matrix-explained.com/php/about-the-matrix-movies-1275.html
http://www.friesian.com/matrix.htm



Devolution: "I've seen all of them, but probably like most people, only really found the first one to be 'groundbreaking', as it were.
The others had their own interesting concepts like the 'Architect' and more... But I feel the sequels were mainly that... Just sequels to cash in... I'm sure they could have easily condensed both films into one... There was far too much trundling and eye-candy..."

from what I remember of the three Matrix films I think I'd go along with that. First one's a classic. The other two were more 'style & complication over content' 8)

[Poppies]

Here's some links you might like on the Matrix as viewed from the philosophies of Plato and the Vedas of India:

http://www.matrix-explained.com/php/about-the-matrix-movies-1275.html
http://www.friesian.com/matrix.htm



Devolution: "I've seen all of them, but probably like most people, only really found the first one to be 'groundbreaking', as it were.
The others had their own interesting concepts like the 'Architect' and more... But I feel the sequels were mainly that... Just sequels to cash in... I'm sure they could have easily condensed both films into one... There was far too much trundling and eye-candy..."

from what I remember of the three Matrix films I think I'd go along with that. First one's a classic. The other two were more 'style & complication over content' 8)

:shock: I loved all three films! :shock:

:) I found them completely and utterly fascinating and inspiring! :)

[quote]Really, I just thought it was so interesting what she herself said about her role within the matrix (

[Space_Man]

Do you have thoughts on "why she does those things"?
Well, at several different points, The Oracle can be said to be very gently steering our characters (Neo, in particular) towards experiences of suffering. Granted, the choice of what to do at the junctures that the characters find themselves in, is still always theirs

[Poppies]

[quote=Poppies]Do you have thoughts on "why she does those things"?
Well, at several different points, The Oracle can be said to be very gently steering our characters (Neo, in particular) towards experiences of suffering. Granted, the choice of what to do at the junctures that the characters find themselves in, is still always theirs

[Space_Man]

Lets expand on our discussion a bit, and bring some issues of free-will, pre-determinism (http://www.spiritualforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=158) and re-incarnation into the picture.

I want to focus on some lines of dialogue from Reloaded, which I found to be some of the most complex, in the entire story. Let

[jadedmelody]

I dont have to concentration to fully catch up on this thread yet but I wanted to think on one thing:

Now, the question: Within the Judeo/Christian framework, how similar is the matrix to heaven, The Architect to being a god-like figure, and the agents to being angels?

Is it okay to start off with:

I reckon that the Architect is in effect, the Creator God;
he created the matrix - which is in effect 'heaven';
the agents are the 'servants of God and of the matrix - they are in effect 'angels'.

I respectfully disagree. I do not see the Matrix as "Heaven". In fact i think if you take the Matrix in a purely Christian way, you're kind of missing a lot of the point. The Watchowski brothers draw much more on Buddhist, Hindu, etc teachings. Its much deeper than simply being a christian allegory IMHO. Im not denying thats ONE interpretation but i think theres a huge number of other possible interpretations! I see it in many different ways - the first is more like the Garden of Eden - superficially it is a paradise, in that no actual bodily harm can happen and it functions comfortably, but the people in it are blind. The other is that the Matrix represents as the Earth as it is to most of us. Which is where some of the much more philosophically deep meanings and parallels come in- such as:

The Allegory of the Cave and the Theory of Forms (Plato)

Plato said that when we look at something in the physical world, we are only seeing a shadow of one of the Forms. For example, if i'm looking at something "beautiful", that thing has a share in Beauty. But Beauty is also a concept and has a form all of its own but we can never see the Form, only the shadow of it. Beauty is a quality This applies to everything. A woman might be beautiful in comparison to an uglier woman, but she is also not beautiful in comparison to a goddess. She is not TRULY beautiful and nothing physical is. Also, only a Philosopher can know the Forms, and they are invisible, eternal, and unchanging. So most of us are in the dark, and only Philosophers, who can see the forms, have REAL KNOWLEDGE. The rest of us are ignorant and have only opinions, not knowledge.

This is where the Cave comes in. For an explanation of the Cave Allegory and the parallels between it and The Matrix, see:

http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Theater/9175/neo/matrixplatoscave.html

In short, the Matrix is the state most of us are in - we have no knowledge because all we see is shadows of the real world. and the Agents are the Matrix version of the "puppet handlers". Only through philosophy and coming to know the Forms and expanding our minds with knowledge can we see the light.

Maya

In Vedic philosophy, maya (Sanskrit: ma: not, ya: this) is the illusion of a limited, purely physical and mental reality in which our everyday consciousness has become entangled, a veiling of the true, unitary Self, also known as Brahman. Maya originated in the Hindu scriptures known as the Upanishads. Many philosphies or religions seek to "pierce the veil" in order to glimpse the transcendent truth, from which the illusion of a physical reality springs, drawing from the idea that first came to life in the Hindu stream of Vedanta.

In Hinduism, Maya must be seen through in order to achieve moksha (liberation of the soul from the cycle of death and rebirth) - ahamkar (ego-consciousness) and karma are seen as part of the binding forces of Maya. Maya is seen as the phenomenal universe, a lesser reality-lens superimposed on the one Brahman that leads us to think of the phenomenal cosmos as real. Maya is also visualized as part of the Divine Mother (Devi) concept of Hinduism. In the Hindu scripture 'Devi Mahatmyam,' Mahamaya (Great Maya) is said to cover Vishnu's eyes in Yoganidra (Divine Sleep) during cycles of existence when all is resolved into one. By exhorting Mahamaya to release Her illusory hold on Vishnu, Brahma is able to bring Vishnu to aid him in killing two demons, Madhu and Kaitabh, who have manifested from Vishnu's sleeping form. Shri Ramakrishna often spoke of Mother Maya and combined deep Hindu allegory with the idea that Maya is a lesser reality that must be overcome so that one is able to realize his or her true Self.

The Watchowski brothers were heavily influenced by Buddhist and Hindu philosophy - notably there are huge numbers of references to rebirth/enlightenment in the films - so there's no doubt it could be at least partially derivative of this idea. A lot of it is similar to the Cave allegory- but im not sure I totally understand the depth of it because i dont know enough about Hindu philosophy so I will certainly come back to this idea. But I see several parallells, including the idea that physical reality is ultimately an illusion and is meaningless in comparison to philosophical reality, the world of thoughts, and of spirituality.

Ill come back to that one another time.

Christian

To shortly summarise, i think that that the Matrix can be seen as three different Christian ideas:

- Heaven - as outlined by others in this thread!
- The Garden of Eden - because superficially, there is no real suffering, but it is a restricted existence where people do not have knowledge. Gaining knowledge is synonomous with exiting Eden, just like in the Matrix - the only way for people to believe is to show them.
- The world as it is - because our world is a prison, seperate from God. The only way to escape is to embrace God, and thus gaining a place in Heaven.

Cogito Ergo Sum
(I think, therefore i am)

I also think The Matrix represents Descartes' Cogito argument - that the only thing I as an individual can know is my existence because if i am doubting my existence, i must exist in order to doubt it!!!

Anxious Philosophy Student- "Teacher, teacher, please tell me, do I exist?!"
Philosophy Professor - "Who's asking?"

But everything else could theoretically be an illusion. While Descartes does not like Plato and others suggest that we ACTUALLY should doubt absoloutely everything, the idea is that we could. Because we COULD be in The Matrix and how would we know?

There are more. Many many more. And ive only gone into the first film really here.
But im anxious to know what people think of these interpretations before i go further.

[Poppies]

Hi Jaded Melody!
I dont have to concentration to fully catch up on this thread yet but I wanted to think on one thing:
Well... if this is you not having the concentration to fully catch up on this thread..... I'm impressed!!!! :wink:

Now, the question: Within the Judeo/Christian framework, how similar is the matrix to heaven, The Architect to being a god-like figure, and the agents to being angels?

Is it okay to start off with:

I reckon that the Architect is in effect, the Creator God;
he created the matrix - which is in effect 'heaven';
the agents are the 'servants of God and of the matrix - they are in effect 'angels'.

I respectfully disagree. I do not see the Matrix as "Heaven".

I had quite a discussion on this with Space_Man on a previous Matrix thread... I can see exactly where you're coming from, but maybe this quote from the Brian Takle essay on Reloaded: The Rave Scene (http://wylfing.net/essays/matrix_reloaded.html#rave) will help clarify things a bit.....

The feet on the ground means that Zion is on Earth. Plain and simple. This parallels the Architect scene, and gets to the main thesis. We are cast out of the "perfection" of Heaven and living in the Real World. Symbolically, the Matrix is Heaven. Cypher makes this point in the first movie. The Real World is hard, dirty, and uncomfortable. The Matrix is, well, paradise. This point is made again in the first movie by Agent Smith, who calls the Matrix "the perfect human world" [paraphrased]. Recall that the Architect scene happens in utterly clean, utterly white perfection [4].

The Biblical reference is clear enough. Neo, Trinity, Morpheus, and the rest of Zion have rejected God's Garden of Eden where all their needs are taken care of in favor of a hard, scrabbling existence where at least they have free will.

[Poppies]

Sorry Spacey, I missed your post when I replied to Jaded Melody....

[quote]The Oracle: You have the sight now, Neo. You are looking at the world without time.
Neo: Then why can't I see what happens to her [Trinity]?
The Oracle: We can never see past the choices we don't understand.
Neo: Are you saying I have to choose whether Trinity lives or dies?
The Oracle: No. You've already made the choice, now you have to understand it.

Specifically, let

[Space_Man]

Jadedmelody: Bear with me, and I

[jadedmelody]

[quote=Space_Man]Jadedmelody: Bear with me, and I

[Space_Man]

...its SUPPOSED to be open to a million interpretations. Its supposed to make us ask questions.
It certainly accomplished that goal, didn

[DirtyMagicalAly]

I'm so excited that I can finally post here! :lol:

I have become a little Matrix geek since the other thread like this! heehe (And have finally got my hands on the animatrix collection which I plan to watch asap!)

anyway, back to the thread....
Okay... I'm feeling in the dark a bit here... but would it be possible that The Oracle knows the choice that Neo will make because a previous One had already made the choice?

So she didn't know because she was 'all-knowing'.... she knew because she'd seen the choice before.... does that make sense at all?

I readily admit that I could be completely and utterly wrong here, but this is what came to mind as I read your post....
The problem that I see here, is that doesn;t Neo make a different choice to what the previos One's made? As in, you could say he even transcends the barriers of the One? Because, he doesnt choose the door that would save the Matrix, he choses the one to save Trinity....
Furthermore, does The Oracle even know what choice Neo has made, or is she merely saying that he's already made it?
Also, I think it;d be interesting to look at how Neo understands the choices he makes...I dont fully understand this aspect of him....I dont see where in the films he is ever understanding his choices....this could just be me being dense...but I really dont at all...

Also i think that the feet on the ground may be being slightly more meaningful than just "this means that Zion represents Earth".
So then, in your opinion, what else does it mean / represent?

Another thing that confuses me about the films (and I figure here is the best place to pose the quesion! lol) is that in Brian Takles essays, he talks about when Neo is 'made' into another Smith right at the end and says this:
The new Smith is not part of the "collective Smith" at all
Fair enough, but then he goes on to talk about how information is passed freely within all the Smiths - again, fine. So he concludes (this little bit) by saying that when Neo/Smith connected with the Source he was deleted. Again, fine. But then he says that because information flows freely within all the SMiths, the others are deleted also....so my question is this, how could the information flow freely is Neo/Smith is "not part of the 'collective Smith' at all"??

Okay, thats it for now...

[Poppies]

I'm so excited that I can finally post here! :lol:

:thumbrig: And we're delighted to see you here at last!!!! :thumblef:

I have become a little Matrix geek since the other thread like this! heehe
Join the geeks club!! :lol: We have fun!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

(And have finally got my hands on the animatrix collection which I plan to watch asap!)
My aim is to rewatch the Matrix films and intersperse the Animatrix in the order that Spacey suggests:

[quote]Viewed in some sort of order then, we have a list of what needs to be seen, in the interest of getting the most out of the complete story arc: 1.) The Second Renaissance, parts I & II (from The Animatrix), 2.) The Matrix (the film), 3.) Final Flight of the Osiris (from The Animatrix), 4.) Beyond (from The Animatrix), 5.) Kid

[Space_Man]

[quote=DirtyMagicalAly][I

[Poppies]

[quote=Space_Man][quote=Poppies]The conversation about the candy grabbed my attention. It brought to mind a post that Sashwah made on the Free-Will, Choice and Pre-Destination (http://www.spiritualforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=158) thread (it

[DirtyMagicalAly]

[quote=Space_Man]The Second Renaissance, Parts 1 & 2 will especially fill-in a lot of meaningful background on the story

[Space_Man]

[quote=DirtyMagicalAly]

[DASA]

I've tried to catch-up on this thread. ... but it's just too packed full of information for my brain to download..... somewhere I seem to remember you asked about Hinduism Spaceman? and I think Poppies mentioned reincarnation and how it could fit into the Matrix? Apologies if this is a bit of a tangent ;-)

'Hinduism' doesn't really exist which is a good start :-)
It's a name which Muslim invaders gave to people in India who weren't Muslim, Christian or Buddhist. It started off as 'people of the Indus river region', and over the years got shortened to 'H-Indus', then at some stage it became such a well known phrase that even 'Hindus' started using the term themselves. The problem is that within India there is as much diversity of religious belief as you'd find in the rest of the world, maybe even more so? Virtually every single beleif has been followed there by some sect or tradition at some time so it's impossible to really lump it all together.

The common thread amongst them are the Vedic scriptures - these are from an ancient tradition (many 1000's BC) and were passed down orally from guru to disciple in the form of Sanskrit poems. They cover everything from Cow Dung to Military Arts, to Science, Philosophy, and most importantly the Nature of the Soul & God. At some stage it was decided, 'hey maybe someone should write all this down incase it gets lost, or we forget it?'. So the story goes that a great sage called Vyasadeva wrote them all onto paper and then went off into the Himalayas. But after he finished he was still a little bit 'unhappy' that all these volumes had been written (it would take a lifetime to read them) but the essence might be missed out. So he then wrote the 'Bhagavata-Purana' which is a summary study of all the highest philosophy and information specifically regarding the Soul & God (Krishna), and the pastimes of God in His personal incarnations as Krishna, Rama, Balarama, Vishnu etc...and His empowered incarnations as Buddha etc...

So how does this apply to the Matrix? Well I'm sure it does in some way;-) lol .... The idea of Neo being like 'an avatar' or at least an empowered 'avatar' who gets reincarnated time after time might originate from the concept of avatar in the Bhagavata-Purana?

For example when Krishna spoke the Bhagavad-Gita to Arjuna, he says at one point:

BG 4.4: Arjuna said: The demi-god Vivasvan is senior by birth to You. How am I to understand that in the beginning You instructed this science to him?

BG 4.5: The Personality of Godhead said: Many, many births both you and I have passed. I can remember all of them, but you cannot, O subduer of the enemy!

BG 4.6: Although I am unborn and My transcendental body never deteriorates, and although I am the Lord of all living entities, I still appear in every millennium in My original transcendental form.

BG 4.7: Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion -- at that time I descend Myself.

BG 4.8: To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.

BG 4.9: One who knows the transcendental nature of My appearance and activities does not, upon leaving the body, take his birth again in this material world, but attains My eternal abode, O Arjuna.

BG 4.10: Being freed from attachment, fear and anger, being fully absorbed in Me and taking refuge in Me, many, many persons in the past became purified by knowledge of Me -- and thus they all attained transcendental love for Me.

So Neo could like Arjuna, each time Krishna descends the same souls come with Him, but they don't neccessarily know it (like Neo). But then Morpheus would be Krishna because He is teaching Neo, but not taking the credit himself - which is similar to Krishna's style. ;-) ??

The Matrix is like Maya (illusion), as well-described in an earlier post, which is detailed in many of the Vedas. The Oracle is similar to the transcendental spaceman/sage from the Vedas called 'Narada-Muni' because he's always 'stirring things up' in a spiritual way like she does in the film..... and giving gems of wisdom. Not sure where the architect could fit in? I can only really remember the first film.

A few thoughts to chew on anyway..... :-)

Gouranga,

Das :-)

[Poppies]

DASA

Wow! Thanks Das! That should keep us going for a while!!!! :lol:
.................................................. .................................................. ...............................

Aly

And please please please, call me Aly...much easier, and much nicer! lol
Aly it is then!!!! :wink: I was going to ask you about shortening your name but you got there first!! :lol:

Poppies: I can definitely agree with what ur saying, about the re-incarnation aspect...but again, to my mind it opens up the question of how powerful, really, was the Oracle in her role as Oracle? Like what I put to Space_Man, does she simply know the choices have been made, and baguely knows what they are likely to be...or does she see the future?
I'm not 'set-in-concrete' on anything here... but I do wonder if the re-incarnation aspect is something that we simply have to accept..... so she knows his choice because that's how it is with re-incarnation - and, as 'God'/Neo's 'mother', she was aware of the choices he had made then....

Brian Takle has this to say about The Oracle predicting Neo's behaviour...
I suggested that the Oracle may be able to truly predict Neo's behavior. She "birthed" the Neo routine into the Matrix. It is her special child (and perhaps by extension Neo is her child). The Architect doesn't understand it (or Neo). He merely knows the parameters of how it is supposed to function. But if the Oracle gifted growth to the Matrix, then she must understand it (even if she herself cannot do it).

I've copied the following section from the Reloaded essay... I know it's long, but I wondered if it would help clarify things a bit.....
The Oracle
ARCHITECT: If I am the Father of the Matrix, then she would undoubtedly be its Mother.

NEO: The Oracle.

Those two lines sum up a tremendous amount of the story. But what exactly is the Oracle the mother of? The Architect designed an essentially "perfect" Matrix in versions 1.0 and 2.0, and both failed. He describes how the answer came from an intuitive program (i.e., the Oracle) -- the part she contributed that he could not was the Neo factor...............

I made a quick reference to Kali a while back. She is the goddess of both birth and death -- that is, she brings death-and-rebirth to the universe. This illuminates the flaw in Architect's previous Matrices, defines who the Oracle is, and reveals precisely the limit of the machines' intelligence (and why the Architect cannot entirely predict Neo's behavior; perhaps the Oracle actually can, though). The cycle of death-and-rebirth is equivalent to GROWTH. We can apply that truth to basic physical existence, the death and consumption of another to yield bodily growth[5]. We can also take that as a spiritual metaphor. That is, there is no spiritual growth (i.e., becoming fully human and entering the Middle Kingdom) without death and rebirth.

The reason the previous Matrices failed was that there was no way for the humans to grow, a need so fundamental that no one would accept the world they were given. Agent Smith, in the first movie, tells the truth when he says "humans define their world through suffering." Death must come before rebirth. How many times has that progression been shown in these movies so far? This is absolutely central to the theme. Smith's recognition of it is portentous.

The fact that the Architect designed two entire Matrices without the capacity for human growth indicates that the machines have little comprehension of growth. In fact, they can't grow; they strive instead for static perfection. The only way they have "grown" so far is in response to human actions. The Oracle knows this, which is why she says "the only way forward is together" [paraphrased]. She knows that the machines will stagnate without humans to lead them forward.

So the Oracle is Kali. She brings death and misery to the world, but also renewal. The Oracle could have prevented a lot of suffering by equipping everyone with better foreknowledge. But if she had done so, none of the main characters would have grown -- especially, Neo would not have become The One. This is why she says to Neo "you have to decide for yourself if I'm for you or against you" [paraphrasing again]. And it really is not clear, although it seems like in the long run she is pro-human.

I suggested that the Oracle may be able to truly predict Neo's behavior. She "birthed" the Neo routine into the Matrix. It is her special child (and perhaps by extension Neo is her child). The Architect doesn't understand it (or Neo). He merely knows the parameters of how it is supposed to function. But if the Oracle gifted growth to the Matrix, then she must understand it (even if she herself cannot do it). To wit, you cannot grow and remain static at the same time. The Architect thinks the Neo routine is a method for maintaining a static system, but it cannot be. Each time the routine runs, the death-and-rebirth cycle repeats, and all of humanity grows up a little more, expressed specifically as Neo. By its very nature, by its will to grow, humanity will reject this Matrix too.

I think there is something special with this "The One" business. The Architect and the Merovingian talk about predecessors and previous versions of "Neo." I suspect that each time around he (or she!) was a little more powerful, although it might have been unexpressed or undetectable to the machines. We have plenty of Buddhist/Hindu reincarnation clues in these movies, and we can say that each incarnation was the same soul growing toward Enlightenment. In the first movie, the Oracle tells Neo he is not yet The One. "I don't know what you're waiting for," she says. "Your next life, maybe." She isn't talking about his fulfillment of the death-and-rebirth routine built into the Matrix. She is talking about the continually reincarnated Neo evolving into THE ONE, which is something she knows is bound to happen eventually. In fact, it takes six incarnations to get there.
.................................................. .................................................. ...................................

Spacey

First, are we all in agreement that The Merovingian is basically our Devil figure?
No... I'm not!!!!.......................................... only joking... http://buslist.org/phpBB/images/smiles/E10.gifyes I'm in agreement with that! :wink:

[quote]If so (I certainly think he is), the implications of what HE has to say on this matter of choice, is rather interesting: To the Devil, choice is really only about cause & effect relationships. So, for our Enlightened/Christ figure (Neo), the issue is probably going to have a different slant to it, no? I think one of the main things that Neo comes to realize

[DirtyMagicalAly]

[quote=Space_Man]Ooo

[Poppies]

I do wonder if the re-incarnation aspect is something that we simply have to accept..... so she knows his choice because that's how it is with re-incarnation - and, as 'God'/Neo's 'mother', she was aware of the choices he had made then....
So....is the Oracle 'special' in the sense that she can know her 'childs' choices he made before he was re-ncarnated this time? Or can any mother see that? Or does she simply know what needs to be changed in order to make sure he keeps growing? And so, it is more educated-guess work?

Hmmmm I really wish I understood more about re-incarnation.... And also, it was probably misleading to call The Oracle "Neo's 'mother'".... I don't mean in a human sense as such....

She "birthed" the Neo routine into the Matrix. It is her special child (and perhaps by extension Neo is her child).

I'm not sure if I'm correct in saying this, but if we imagine her, not so much 'giving birth' to Neo, but more 'creating the Neo routine'... it means that she was present at his creation and if, as it seems to be the case, when someone is re-incarnated they make choices about their future life before their birth... she would be aware of the choices that he had made.... does that make better sense? :)

[Space_Man]

So how does this apply to the Matrix? .... The idea of Neo being like 'an avatar' or at least an empowered 'avatar' who gets reincarnated time after time might originate from the concept of avatar in the Bhagavata-Purana?

So Neo could like Arjuna, each time Krishna descends the same souls come with Him, but they don't necessarily know it (like Neo).
Have you read those essays (http://wylfing.net/essays/) yet, DASA? :wink: This is what Brian Takle made of it (and I

[Poppies]

[quote=Space_Man][quote=DirtyMagicalAly]

[jadedmelody]

this thread makes my brain hurt

[Poppies]

this thread makes my brain hurt

shhhhh! Do what I do.... Just keep talking and no-one will notice!!!! :wink:

[Space_Man]

I wanted to jump-in here really quickly, and alert folks to a related thread that Poppies has going on the subject of Gnosticism (http://www.spiritualforums.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=237)

[vikram.anand]

Most people take Matrix triology as a sci-fi movie. But i believe its a great spiritual movie with the touch of technology.

The Indian vedic knowledge is well integrated into the film. I would like to request for more opinions about it.

Thanks and cheers!
Vikram

[Arcturus]

neo is an anagram of one

i think there is one element of difference in chosen one films and real life, is that great masters are primarily yin, like the universe, whereas in the movies violence (yang) is always used as a means to set people free. in real life the conflict happens and is understood from within only. the bondage that humans experience cannot be overcome through brute force. problem is that to write the words, into a film, of how a true master deals with violence, would require in itself an enlightened writer, which there are not, and so we have the eastenders of the spiritual struggle, with the key, unending drool of physical violence...still, a great watch

[Naddread]

I would suggest watching a breakdown of the metaphorical aspects of the matrix movies by Mark Passio. A search on YT will bring it up. I can't post links yet. Fantastic breakdown.

~Naddread~

[Miss Hepburn]

You are correct. I watch The Matrix once a year for that reason.
What is reality?

I know this steak isn't real...but...love that line.

I always misquote to my friends...."Be the spoon..."

[Naddread]

I would suggest watching a breakdown of the metaphorical aspects of the matrix movies by Mark Passio. A search on YT will bring it up. I can't post links yet. Fantastic breakdown.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JvKEwr0iNA0

The link to the video from my former post.

~Naddread~

[DoctorStrange]

A lot of people became spiritual because of the eye opener that the Matrix was. Movies certainly are a powerful medium to get a message across.

[GrungeLuv2014]

Best Movie Series.

[Lilyth Von Gore]

I love The Matrix. It was a real thought provoker. It certainly supports the idea that we are all "asleep", and how those who are awake see the world for what it really is.

[It Is]

Interestingly, there was a movie made before the matrix called Dark City.

You'll be amazed how similar the two movies are.

[DoctorStrange]

Interestingly, there was a movie made before the matrix called Dark City.

You'll be amazed how similar the two movies are.

And don't forget The Thirteenth Floor. All movies released about the same time, with the same theme.

[Ginko211]

It is a very good trilogy indeed. Check out Ghost in the Shell if you're interested, it is the movie that inspired the Matrix.

[NewtotheLife]

I love love love this Movie. This movie opened me..I make sure to watch every time it is on.

[inspirit]

In The Matrix Smith holds Morpheus captive and lectures him about the matrix. He tells him that human beings are a virus. And that people define their reality by misery and so that's why they designers of the matrix make the world a miserable place for people to live with problems like crime, war, famine, etc.

I see a parallel to real life where we are constantly being told how bad human beings are. To unplug from the matrix the analogy is to have more faith in God and humanity than what you are told. Following Jesus means loving your neighbors without judgment, loving God, and having faith that even though there is evil in the world, humanity has a tremendous potential for good and we must believe in each other.

:cool: :cool: :cool: :cool: