View Full Version : What "I" am
"I" am not my ego, not my past, not my experiences, not my name, not my profession, not my sexuality, not my desires, and not my fears—none of that stuff. All of that stuff exists in a certain sense, as impressions in my mind, but what "I" am is that which is aware of all of that and aware of everything else: the sky, the earth, sounds, flavors, textures, other people, etc.
In other words, the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness. This cannot be done instantly, but has to be a practice which one pursues until it becomes natural. With practice, it can and will become natural. It will because it is factual—far more factual than the common standard version of "reality" in which many, if not most, people seem to believe, but which I say, and confess, is a delusion.
In order to pursue this practice—if it interests you—I suggest two procedures:
1. As often as you can remember to do it, say silently to yourself, "I Am." (which means I exist as awareness prior to whatever energy, thoughts, or imagery happen to be occupying that awareness in this moment.
In other words, "I" am the movie screen which never changes, not the movie which is always changing)
2. Begin to move awareness away from thought, away from descriptions, that is, and into sensing and feeling the world without naming anything or trying to explain anything.
For example, if I now move attention to the area in the center of my chest, I will sense something which cannot be put into words because there are no words for it, any more than there are words to describe the flavor of a peach. This is called "bare awareness," "choiceless awareness," or "awareness prior to words."
- Dr. Robert Salzman
http://robert.ismouton.org/topic/577 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Frobert.ismouton.org% 25252Ftopic%25252F577)
Spiritlite
13-04-2011, 04:15 AM
Thankyou for this, lately I've noticed a lot of people speaking this way on this forum and I love it, I've been feeling and thinking in this type of manner too the past few weeks and I think it's just wonderful.
Spiritlite.
You are whatever you wish yourself to be. We are all conscious, independent personalities. Yes we come from "The Source", but we are still individuals who have thoughts and feelings and bla bla bla.
Here's another practice I suggest for discovering who you really are:
Breathe down into the quiet open space within yourself, which may appear at first to be in the center of your body.
Notice how your thoughts being to quiet down and you begin to feel more centered.
Continue with the practice as often as you remember, and you will come into a subtle sense of 'presence' - your own presence, your inner self, your Being.
I call this Breathing Within.
Xan
You are whatever you wish yourself to be. We are all conscious, independent personalities. Yes we come from "The Source", but we are still individuals who have thoughts and feelings and bla bla bla.
Yes, ROM, of course we are humans with personalities, minds and bodies but that is not our challenge since we've believed this is all we are for a very long time.
Now to begin the direct, experiential discovery of our essence and source and the transformation this brings.
Xan
TzuJanLi
13-04-2011, 04:44 AM
Greetings..
"I" am not my ego, not my past, not my experiences, not my name, not my profession, not my sexuality, not my desires, and not my fears—none of that stuff. All of that stuff exists in a certain sense, as impressions in my mind, but what "I" am is that which is aware of all of that and aware of everything else: the sky, the earth, sounds, flavors, textures, other people, etc.
In other words, the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness. This cannot be done instantly, but has to be a practice which one pursues until it becomes natural. With practice, it can and will become natural. It will because it is factual—far more factual than the common standard version of "reality" in which many, if not most, people seem to believe, but which I say, and confess, is a delusion.
Why do you declare your opinion as factual? can you provide irrefutable proof, or.. is it anecdotal? is it any less of a "delusion" to declare your opinion "factual", without verifiable 'facts'?.. it is actually much more palatable when presented as an opinion or belief based on your understandings of your experiences.. but, the declaration of 'fact' without supporting evidence initiates skepticism, and tends to diminish what seems to be a message worth investigating..
Be well..
TzuJanLi
13-04-2011, 04:50 AM
Greetings..
Yes, ROM, of course we are humans with personalities, minds and bodies but that is not our challenge since we've believed this is all we are for a very long time.
Now to begin the direct, experiential discovery of our essence and source and the transformation this brings.
Xan
I disagree with your mischaracterization of people, i sense that people have a fairly good notion that they are more than this body and this Life.. though there seems to be great disagreement about what that 'more' is, and how it should be experienced..
Be well..
Miss Hepburn
13-04-2011, 04:53 AM
Xan Xan Xan,
I read your post with such happiness - and now - you have Adya in your signature.
Ahhh...
:hug:
silent energy
14-04-2011, 03:44 AM
"I" am not my ego, not my past, not my experiences, not my name, not my profession, not my sexuality, not my desires, and not my fears—none of that stuff. All of that stuff exists in a certain sense, as impressions in my mind, but what "I" am is that which is aware of all of that and aware of everything else: the sky, the earth, sounds, flavors, textures, other people, etc.
In other words, the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness. This cannot be done instantly, but has to be a practice which one pursues until it becomes natural. With practice, it can and will become natural. It will because it is factual—far more factual than the common standard version of "reality" in which many, if not most, people seem to believe, but which I say, and confess, is a delusion.
In order to pursue this practice—if it interests you—I suggest two procedures:
1. As often as you can remember to do it, say silently to yourself, "I Am." (which means I exist as awareness prior to whatever energy, thoughts, or imagery happen to be occupying that awareness in this moment.
In other words, "I" am the movie screen which never changes, not the movie which is always changing)
2. Begin to move awareness away from thought, away from descriptions, that is, and into sensing and feeling the world without naming anything or trying to explain anything.
For example, if I now move attention to the area in the center of my chest, I will sense something which cannot be put into words because there are no words for it, any more than there are words to describe the flavor of a peach. This is called "bare awareness," "choiceless awareness," or "awareness prior to words."
Great post Xan, more and more little by little my attention throughout the day is turning away from my thoughts, definitions, descriptions and all other aspects of mind and towards the silent awareness and stillness of my presence. Just gotta keep accepting and letting go :wink: Thanks for all the posting you do on this site. :smile:
silent energy
14-04-2011, 04:17 AM
Greetings..
I disagree with your mischaracterization of people, i sense that people have a fairly good notion that they are more than this body and this Life.. though there seems to be great disagreement about what that 'more' is, and how it should be experienced..
Be well..
No chance Tzu, most people on this planet identify themselves with their name and body and their attention is focused, for the most part, on their individual problems constantly being dramatized in their minds. They will never take a step back and question it. Of course I'm not talking about the people who visit spiritual forums but the more "mainstream" type of person.
And if if you want "evidence" for what Xan is saying the only way your gonna get it is if you drop everything you've ever learned spiritually, all your ideas, truths, beliefs and evidence which may or may not be true it really doesn't matter, drop it all just for a second, and with no expectations, no judgement or pre-determined notions just experience the silence that is all around you, dont worry about your evidences they'll be waiting for you when you back:smile:
i sense that people have a fairly good notion that they are more than this body and this Life.. though there seems to be great disagreement about what that 'more' is, and how it should be experienced..
Be well..
Actually, Bob, among people who don't merely sense there is more but directly experience the fact of our essence of being do agree, and recognize this awakening in others. Only the words about it differ.
And yes there are many ways to discover it.
Xan
...the only way your gonna get it is if you drop everything you've ever learned spiritually, all your ideas, truths, beliefs and evidence which may or may not be true it really doesn't matter, drop it all just for a second, and with no expectations, no judgement or pre-determined notions
just experience the silence that is all around you, dont worry about your evidences they'll be waiting for you when you back:smile:
Well said, MindOverMatter.
Xan
GentleStrength
14-04-2011, 09:53 AM
I Am That Which I Am
I am an aspect of infinite creation and a co-creator of the universe
My only purpose is to be Who I AM to the best that I can be
With these ideas as the core of our beliefs reality is a lot of fun :D
Love and Light
NightSpirit
14-04-2011, 10:26 AM
No...you are NOT those things that define you because these keep changing and evolving. What remains constant is the "I". :D
Caityaka
14-04-2011, 11:09 AM
"I" am not my ego, not my past, not my experiences, not my name, not my profession, not my sexuality, not my desires, and not my fears—none of that stuff. All of that stuff exists in a certain sense, as impressions in my mind, but what "I" am is that which is aware of all of that and aware of everything else: the sky, the earth, sounds, flavors, textures, other people, etc.
In other words, the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness. This cannot be done instantly, but has to be a practice which one pursues until it becomes natural. With practice, it can and will become natural. It will because it is factual—far more factual than the common standard version of "reality" in which many, if not most, people seem to believe, but which I say, and confess, is a delusion.
In order to pursue this practice—if it interests you—I suggest two procedures:
1. As often as you can remember to do it, say silently to yourself, "I Am." (which means I exist as awareness prior to whatever energy, thoughts, or imagery happen to be occupying that awareness in this moment.
In other words, "I" am the movie screen which never changes, not the movie which is always changing)
2. Begin to move awareness away from thought, away from descriptions, that is, and into sensing and feeling the world without naming anything or trying to explain anything.
For example, if I now move attention to the area in the center of my chest, I will sense something which cannot be put into words because there are no words for it, any more than there are words to describe the flavor of a peach. This is called "bare awareness," "choiceless awareness," or "awareness prior to words."
- Dr. Robert Salzman
http://robert.ismouton.org/topic/577 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Frobert.ismouton.org% 25252Ftopic%25252F577)
Inspiring!
zipzip
17-05-2011, 11:29 PM
let's just breath deep for a moment and relax and just quiet the mind.No expectations.....
great post..... Xan, you are so Zen. lol
zipzip
I take that as a compliment, zipzip.
For me the essence of this message is:
"...the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness"
and
"...if I now move attention to the area in the center of my chest, I will sense something which cannot be put into words because there are no words for it"
We may not just be inspired by it but... do it.
Xan
zipzip
18-05-2011, 01:02 AM
[QUOTE=Xan]I take that as a compliment, zipzip.
It is! Very much so. zipzip
For me the essence of this message is:
"...the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness"
and
"...if I now move attention to the area in the center of my chest, I will sense something which cannot be put into words because there are no words for it"
We may not just be inspired by it but... do it.
I agree. It helps quiet the mind, centre yourself
zipzip
Thinker108
28-05-2011, 04:37 AM
only you can give you the answer of this question not others.
Internal Queries
28-05-2011, 04:54 AM
i don't know what i am but sometimes i feel i could create worlds if i did.
`
If this were your only spiritual practice, it would be enough:
to withdraw identification from opinions, positions, thoughts.
~ Eckhart Tolle
`
TzuJanLi
14-10-2011, 06:09 PM
Greetings..
bringing this up...
You do that a lot, Xan, self-promoting your perspectives and posts, why?
Be well..
Oh gee, Bob... Who doesn't express their own perspectives?
The quotation from Tolle said, just don't identify with them.
To answer your question I bring up threads rather than starting new ones, and who knows... maybe some one might get some benefit.
Xan
3dnow
15-10-2011, 06:53 AM
Knowing that we are God helps a lot not knowing...
I look at me, I look at another I see the difference, we are both God we are one..
I would rather not try to understand. But mind, designed to understand, tries to sneak in. :cool:
3d
Miss Hepburn
15-10-2011, 12:54 PM
Knowing that we are God helps a lot not knowing...
I look at me, I look at another I see the difference, we are both God we are one..
I would rather not try to understand. But mind, designed to understand, tries to sneak in. :cool:
3d
Ok this is hard for me to describe...the mind, yes, that mind....I was sitting in a laundromat washing all my dogs' bedding a few months ago -- reading Joel S. Goldsmith - ''Practicing the Presence''... when all of a sudden my mind was infused with this abstract understanding of the way things work or are.
LOL, you should have seen me in shock, face slack, as my eyes looked like I was on speed processing the data being downloaded, in a laundromat! Ha! :tongue:
Do you remember in the movie, Men In Black, there was an alien that had tentacles coming out of him with little heads that talked?
I "got" that here was this Godhead - like the Mothership ---with billions of ''tentacles'' coming out of "It" (I also reflect on the Borg cube, from the mind of Gene Roddenberry) ...
And here we were with our little faces on the end of a tentacle.
All the data, feelings and sights we feel go back to the Mothership and is felt and processed - impersonally - as data.
Yet, not impersonally at the same time. Another paradox of this existence.
So, here we are - falling in love with a face on a separate tentacle - always
falling in love with part of ourselves - looking like a different face, but - all of us -
coming from the same Source -- but, not the Source Itself exactly...
but, an extention of that Mothership, Godhead, Source, the Creator and Sustainer.
All part and parcel of the One...all our input going back to the "One".
And what is the most pleasing and wonderful input that could ever come back into the Mothership to be felt ?
What is the highest input of all being processed and fed into the One Source?
Love, manifested in all forms...self-sacrifice for another, generous heartfelt
charity, passionate love of another, kindnesses of every kind, placing
ourselves last and others first...and the turning of our pretty little heads back
towards the One, the Mothership, the Father, the Creator and giving love to It,
Him, Her in awe and gratitude.
Is God a narcissist ?
Is God a transsexual, homosexual, transgendered Entity completely
in love with Himself?
Is He experiencing all there is - wars, romance, disease, joy through all His creatures...
neutral experiences, data, being taken in by an impersonal processing Source?
Well, those are questions I'm throwing out to others- I feel I know the answer.
Thanks,
:smile: Miss Hepburn
3dnow
15-10-2011, 01:15 PM
Hi miss, yes I think God is all that including the jack the ripper feeling uncondtional love inside but having no control of his body (imagine the suffering)
3d
Miss Hepburn
15-10-2011, 01:39 PM
Hi miss, yes I think God is all that including the jack the ripper feeling uncondtional love inside but having no control of his body (imagine the suffering)
3d
How interesting and so Catholic, 'imagine the suffering'...:tongue:
Yes, I had His suffering and also compassion, unquenchable, pump thru me
a few times like I was a conduit ---it is intense and ecstatic at the same time...it burns.
(All my dozens of encounters with the Divine have always felt everso
masculine ---I do see why thru out history He is referred to as "He".
Just an aside.)
:smile:
3dnow
15-10-2011, 01:52 PM
How interesting and so Catholic, 'imagine the suffering'...:tongue:
Yes, I had His suffering and also compassion, unquenchable, pump thru me
a few times like I was a conduit ---it is intense and ecstatic at the same time...it burns.
(All my dozens of encounters with the Divine have always felt everso
masculine ---I do see why thru out history He is referred to as "He".
Just an aside.)
:smile:
I can help it I will tell you my experience (not at all saying yours is the same)... I also felt this masculine so-called divine so many times. They look like what they call gods (performing very very conditional love). But all they want is to separate you from unconditional love which is real God: YOURSELF. They have no other goal in this universe.
For example you can try to attack them to see their true weak monkey nature. (if it is what I am talking about)
But they deserve the best actor oscar, that's for sure.
I am just saying.
3d
hybrid
15-10-2011, 02:03 PM
what I am is the personalization of awareness.
Miss Hepburn
15-10-2011, 02:06 PM
I can help it I will tell you my experience (not at all saying yours is the same)... I also felt this masculine so-called divine so many times. They look like what they call gods (performing very very conditional love). But all they want is to separate you from unconditional love which is real God: YOURSELF. They have no other goal in this universe.
For example you can try to attack them to see their true weak monkey nature. (if it is what I am talking about)
But they deserve the best actor oscar, that's for sure.
I am just saying.
3d
The "They" threw me.
And 'they look like' - I've never seen a they or beings you may be calling ''gods".
Sounds like what Christians call minions or just plain the devil - evil entities.
CS Lewis talks about "them" in The Screwtape Letters.
Doesn't sound good!
3dnow
15-10-2011, 02:32 PM
The "They" threw me.
And 'they look like' - I've never seen a they or beings you may be calling ''gods".
Sounds like what Christians call minions or just plain the devil - evil entities.
CS Lewis talks about "them" in The Screwtape Letters.
Doesn't sound good!
At all! Worst ever. Lived with them for 34 years woke up 4 years ago.
But I am learning to let go.. I don't know what they are (I won't unnecessarily believe in demons) , they could be even maniac humans playing gods.
3d
Sentientno1
15-10-2011, 02:42 PM
what I am is the personalization of awareness.
To the point, succinct, bravo! ( cannot find the little bowing smilie or you'd get one) :smile:
To the point, succinct, bravo! ( cannot find the little bowing smilie or you'd get one) :smile:
To hybrid from Sentientno1
:notworthy:
Miss Hepburn
15-10-2011, 03:08 PM
At all! Worst ever. Lived with them for 34 years woke up 4 years ago.
But I am learning to let go.. I don't know what they are (I won't unnecessarily believe in demons) , they could be even maniac humans playing gods.
3dYes, that word "gods" is not in my lingo - when relating to bad stuff anyway.
I don't even think it is in Eastern or Hindu lingo ---I mean, talking about bad things.
I don't even think I believe in a devil let alone "his" minions ---but there is something not good somewhere -whatever one calls it. Ego, evil entities, bad spirits...
We agree on that. :smile:
Miss Hepburn
15-10-2011, 03:10 PM
To the point, succinct, bravo! ( cannot find the little bowing smilie or you'd get one) :smile:
Type in notworthy ---surrounded by : and :
:smile:
Sentientno1
15-10-2011, 03:46 PM
To hybrid from Sentientno1
:notworthy:
Oh Lisa, am loving your humor, thank you!!!
So, here we are - falling in love with a face on a separate tentacle - always
falling in love with part of ourselves - looking like a different face, but - all of us -
coming from the same Source -- but, not the Source Itself exactly...
but, an extention of that Mothership, Godhead, Source, the Creator and Sustainer.
Love, manifested in all forms...self-sacrifice for another, generous heartfelt
charity, passionate love of another, kindnesses of every kind, placing
ourselves last and others first...and the turning of our pretty little heads back
towards the One, the Mothership, the Father, the Creator and giving love to It,
Him, Her in awe and gratitude.
Is God a narcissist ?
Is God a transsexual, homosexual, transgendered Entity completely
in love with Himself?
Is He experiencing all there is - wars, romance, disease, joy through all His creatures...
neutral experiences, data, being taken in by an impersonal processing Source?
Well, those are questions I'm throwing out to others- I feel I know the answer.
Thanks,
:smile: Miss Hepburn
hmmm... well... Trying to know what "God" is, is impossible without knowing what "I" am (which is the op, by the way).
We may have cosmic realizations and divine concepts but true knowing comes quietly within ourselves.
Xan
(All my dozens of encounters with the Divine have always felt everso masculine ---I do see why thru out history He is referred to as "He".
Just an aside.):smile:
Not to pick on you, Miss H, but the Divine shows up for us as we can relate to / to get our attention / in the form we need as individuals.
My experience of the Divine has no gender flavor at all, being silent aware presence, pure love itself.
This is what "I" am.
Xan
3dnow: They look like what they call gods (performing very very conditional love). But all they want is to separate you from unconditional love which is real God: YOURSELF. They have no other goal in this universe.
3d... No one can imitate love, not even 'gods' or guides or demons or other folk.
As I see it their role is to provide a bridge in forms that people can relate to because the formless source and essence is beyond the defining mind that rules our human world.
Their goal is not to fool us but to support us in a step along the way. Eventually we outgrow this need in experiencing the indefinable infinite beingness that we really are.
Xan
TzuJanLi
15-10-2011, 05:34 PM
Greetings..
what I am is the personalization of awareness.
Hi hybrid: Can you explain what awareness 'is', please..? my understanding of awareness doesn't include personification, so i am interested in the meaning you are referencing..
Be well..
I'm going to catch this right away, Bob.
This is meant not to be a thread of involved discussions about the meaning of 'awareness' and such. There are plenty of other places for that.
As the op suggested, it is an opportunity to express how You experience your "I". This is what I would like to hear from you.
Thank you in advance for your consideration in staying on topic.
Xan
Miss Hepburn-
(All my dozens of encounters with the Divine have always felt everso
masculine ---I do see why thru out history He is referred to as "He".
Just an aside.
:smile:
Really? I always feel like the divine is like Kate Smith belting out, "There's no business like show business." :D
Ok, maybe not. Whether one feels the masculine or feminine is ok. But I will say that the reasons for the male God have to do with the male dominated history of ours.
I like this poem.
You are the sun in drag.
You are God hiding from yourself.
Remove all the “mine”-
that is the veil.
Why ever worry about
anything?
Listen to what your friend Hafiz knows for certain:
The appearance of this
world is a Magi’s brilliant
trick, though its affairs
are Nothing into Nothing.
You are a divine elephant
with amneisa trying to live
in an ant hole. Sweetheart,
O Sweetheart, you are God
in drag.
:icon_sunny:
Wow! I like the poem, Lisa... :icon_sunny:
Xan
Greetings..
Hi hybrid: Can you explain what awareness 'is', please..? my understanding of awareness doesn't include personification, so i am interested in the meaning you are referencing..
Be well..
I thought the same thing.
Wow! I like the poem, Lisa... :icon_sunny:
Xan
Cool! I liked the play on 'drag' with gender issue too. Brilliant. heehee :D
Miss Hepburn
15-10-2011, 07:11 PM
Lisa - you mean Ethel Merman? Don't you? :D
I know, why does this Presence seem masculine to me - I'm sure it is programming. :tongue:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ That Hafiz!!
You are the sun in drag.
You are God hiding from yourself.
Remove all the “mine”-
that is the veil.
Why ever worry about
anything?
Listen to what your friend Hafiz knows for certain:
The appearance of this
world is a Magi’s brilliant
trick, though its affairs
are Nothing into Nothing.
You are a divine elephant
with amneisa trying to live
in an ant hole. Sweetheart,
O Sweetheart, you are God
in drag.
:icon_sunny:
3dnow
15-10-2011, 07:46 PM
3dnow: They look like what they call gods (performing very very conditional love). But all they want is to separate you from unconditional love which is real God: YOURSELF. They have no other goal in this universe.
3d... No one can imitate love, not even 'gods' or guides or demons or other folk.
As I see it their role is to provide a bridge in forms that people can relate to because the formless source and essence is beyond the defining mind that rules our human world.
Their goal is not to fool us but to support us in a step along the way. Eventually we outgrow this need in experiencing the indefinable infinite beingness that we really are.
Xan
Hi Xan,
It is really not what you think..
They treat me really bad, then they love me, then again bad treatment. Best strategy ever to reduce self-esteem.
All they know is judgment. No wisdom nothing.
They say if you accept this type of treatment this is what you get. If not, we consider you as a friend... No thanks this is not the way it works in my book. They will become as small as they can then disappear.
Someone that I would consider close to a true guide (kind and intelligent) warned me about them.
EDIT:
No one can imitate love, not even 'gods' or guides or demons or other folk.
They do not imitate. What they feel and show is conditional love, or love without respect. It is not love. (took years to understand that this horror can exists)
3d
No one can imitate love, not even 'gods' or guides or demons or other folk.
They do not imitate. What they feel and show is conditional love, or love without respect. It is not love. (took years to understand that this horror can exists)
3d
I see what you mean, 3d...
It's people who love from emotions with conditions and often without respect. So these buggers are really just dead people and not gods or guides at all.
I'm sorry you had this trouble, but you must have learned a lot from it anyway.
In my own long experience with a spirit troublemaker I gained more determination to stay as the "I" that is unaffected by those influences.
blessings
Xan
TzuJanLi
15-10-2011, 11:03 PM
Greetings..
I'm going to catch this right away, Bob.
This is meant not to be a thread of involved discussions about the meaning of 'awareness' and such. There are plenty of other places for that.
As the op suggested, it is an opportunity to express how You experience your "I". This is what I would like to hear from you.
Thank you in advance for your consideration in staying on topic.
Xan
Do you suppose awareness has nothing to do with how i experience "I"? Why do you choose to object to this valid question, Xan.. is it me, or the question you are objecting? I see other contributions are further distant from your demanded topic than mine, why do you not admonish those contributors, Xan..
So, what have you caught right away Xan, a case of thread possessiveness? do you assume this is 'your' thread as opposed to a public forum? I've looked at the Original Post, and there is no such suggestion as you imply.. you really do want to take charge and tell people what to do, don't you, Xan.. and, you really don't like people to disagree with your beliefs, do you?
Be well..
You know Tzu, if it walks like a vendetta, talks like a vendetta, and acts like a vendetta - then I'll let you draw your own conclusions, just as everyone else.
Do you suppose awareness has nothing to do with how i experience "I"? Why do you choose to object to this valid question, Xan.. is it me, or the question you are objecting? I see other contributions are further distant from your demanded topic than mine, why do you not admonish those contributors, Xan..
Well Bob... You do tend to stimulate on and on mental discussions, don't you? :wink:
Rather than an abstract exploration of "what is awareness" I would like to hear more directly and simply how you experience the 'me' that you are.
Xan
Back to the topic at hand, I read this today:
At the core of our being exists a pure mirror untarnished and unspoiled by the impressions that fall upon it from the outside world.
Like an inborn immunity, this part of us remains consistently whole, innocent and healthy, even while enduring the numerous involvements and entanglements of this world.
- Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, "Awakening: A Sufi Experience"
`
hybrid
16-10-2011, 12:42 AM
Each Moment Reveals the Absolute
by Colin Drake
From birth to death our life is a series
Of moment to moment experiences.
Comprising thoughts, sensations and mental images
And That which sees these in all of their stages.
A torrent of objects that come and go
In Awareness, the subject, by which we ‘know’.
The constant conscious perceiving presence,
Neath body and mind, our ultimate essence.
The universal consciousness is Awareness whilst at rest,
Within which, in motion*, the cosmos is manifest.
So in Awareness all things come and go,
As in stillness all movements ebb and flow.
Awareness is ever silent and still
Witnessing all vibrations that mill…
Thus It is omniscient and omnipresent,
The substratum from which all things are ‘lent’.
In which they are perceived and reside,
Omnipotent for into This they subside.
Pure and pristine, by things unaffected,
By whose radiance they are detected.
Thus the properties of Awareness that we have found
Agree with those, of the Absolute, religions propound
Without the ‘personal’ which the Western ones posit
However, all persons are manifestations of It!
So It does indeed contain personal qualities,
But these are impermanent, therefore not properties.
Thus when each moment we investigate
The Absolute is revealed, totally innate.
TzuJanLi
16-10-2011, 12:52 AM
Greetings..
Well Bob... You do tend to stimulate on and on mental discussions, don't you? :wink:
Rather than an abstract exploration of "what is awareness" I would like to hear more directly and simply how you experience the 'me' that you are.
Xan
Now, now, Xan.. wouldn't you really like to answer the questions i asked you? Seriously, do you suppose that this is 'your' thread? Why, i wonder if you can answer the question, what 'is' awareness? I suspect that it is an integral part of "how i experience the 'me' that i am", wouldn't you agree, Xan?
Be well..
I'm not looking for agreement, Bob, just something clear and simple about your own experience,
rather than more from the surface overlaid identity on the real 'me'.
Oh well...
Xan
hybrid
16-10-2011, 12:57 AM
Greetings..
Now, now, Xan.. wouldn't you really like to answer the questions i asked you? Seriously, do you suppose that this is 'your' thread? Why, i wonder if you can answer the question, what 'is' awareness? I suspect that it is an integral part of "how i experience the 'me' that i am", wouldn't you agree, Xan?
Be well..
yes, we all know your perspective, your are a person (the "me") that posses awareness. right?
Here's my definition:
Awareness is how we know we exist... and what we experience.
Awareness is not a 'thing' that can be precisely defined, although it can be explored in its many facets.
The Eastern symbol for consciousness / awareness is the thousand petaled lotus.
It is both universal - everywhere and in everything to varying degrees...
and personal/individual - each one is aware in their own unique experiencing.
There's a book title that says it: "Everywhere I go there I am"
It's this "I" that this thread is about.
Xan
hybrid
16-10-2011, 01:02 AM
Here's my definition:
Awareness is how we know we exist and what we experience.
Xan
xan, which knowing would you give a more solid reality?
a conceptual abstract knowing or the knowing that comes from feeling?
Excellent!
Each Moment Reveals the Absolute
by Colin Drake
From birth to death our life is a series
Of moment to moment experiences.
Comprising thoughts, sensations and mental images
And That which sees these in all of their stages.
A torrent of objects that come and go
In Awareness, the subject, by which we ‘know’.
The constant conscious perceiving presence,
Neath body and mind, our ultimate essence.
The universal consciousness is Awareness whilst at rest,
Within which, in motion*, the cosmos is manifest.
So in Awareness all things come and go,
As in stillness all movements ebb and flow.
Awareness is ever silent and still
Witnessing all vibrations that mill…
Thus It is omniscient and omnipresent,
The substratum from which all things are ‘lent’.
In which they are perceived and reside,
Omnipotent for into This they subside.
Pure and pristine, by things unaffected,
By whose radiance they are detected.
Thus the properties of Awareness that we have found
Agree with those, of the Absolute, religions propound
Without the ‘personal’ which the Western ones posit
However, all persons are manifestations of It!
So It does indeed contain personal qualities,
But these are impermanent, therefore not properties.
Thus when each moment we investigate
The Absolute is revealed, totally innate.
`
xan, which knowing would you give a more solid reality?
a conceptual abstract knowing or the knowing that comes from feeling?
Concepts create a gap between knower and known.
Feeling is the most direct knowing.
Xan
hybrid
16-10-2011, 01:08 AM
Feeling is the most direct knowing.
Concepts create a gap between knower and known.
Xan
thanks. i thought so
I thought you thought so.
Xan
"I" am not my ego, not my past, not my experiences, not my name, not my profession, not my sexuality, not my desires, and not my fears—none of that stuff. All of that stuff exists in a certain sense, as impressions in my mind, but what "I" am is that which is aware of all of that and aware of everything else: the sky, the earth, sounds, flavors, textures, other people, etc.
Is not this stuff you refer to what we call the subjective part of the self, it is the stuff that is we define are selves as, the consciousness that develops specific to the individual which is our autobiographical self.
[SIZE=2][SIZE=2]
In other words, the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness. This cannot be done instantly, but has to be a practice which one pursues until it becomes natural. With practice, it can and will become natural. It will because it is factual—far more factual than the common standard version of "reality" in which many, if not most, people seem to believe, but which I say, and confess, is a delusion.
I don’t see reality as an delusion it is real or the “I” wouldn’t exist here-now in the form it has developed in, wouldn’t it be like saying that the “I” is constructing the delusion?
Unless you are refering to consciousness which I suppose in some ways is a delusion, but isn't life a great gift and one that we should take advantage of in enjoying?
Here's my definition:
Awareness is how we know we exist... and what we experience.
Awareness is not a 'thing' that can be precisely defined, although it can be explored in its many facets.
The Eastern symbol for consciousness / awareness is the thousand petaled lotus.
It is both universal - everywhere and in everything to varying degrees...
and personal/individual - each one is aware in their own unique experiencing.
There's a book title that says it: "Everywhere I go there I am"
It's this "I" that this thread is about.
Xan
Is not the “I” you refer to the objective part of the self?
As I have stated in other threads awareness is the soul they are synonyms.
Isn’t the “I”, awareness, or the soul what we had before physical existence?
We come into this world with awareness, awareness of the physical form we are in, it is like a shell, and then develop consciousness year by year while our awareness diminishes. Then one fine day we wonder who and what we are and try to reunite with our awareness/soul that we forgot about.
For me the only real knowing is that of my soul of which I never forgot or where I came from.
I didn’t lose my awareness in early childhood it has always been the same throughout this life though my consciousness has changed and does continually, nor did I forget my early childhood and where I came from.
Thoughts?
TzuJanLi
16-10-2011, 04:31 AM
Greetings..
Here's my definition:
Awareness is how we know we exist... and what we experience.
Awareness is not a 'thing' that can be precisely defined, although it can be explored in its many facets.
The Eastern symbol for consciousness / awareness is the thousand petaled lotus.
It is both universal - everywhere and in everything to varying degrees...
and personal/individual - each one is aware in their own unique experiencing.
There's a book title that says it: "Everywhere I go there I am"
It's this "I" that this thread is about.
Xan
We know we exist through feeling, sensation, perception, and understanding that we are uniquely manifested as physical experience.. We know 'we' exist through our relationship with Life.. what is questionable, morally and ethically, is to pedal fantasy as if were absolute truth.. i.e.:
In other words, the next step is to begin moving the identification of "myself" away from autobiography and into bare awareness. This cannot be done instantly, but has to be a practice which one pursues until it becomes natural. With practice, it can and will become natural. It will because it is factual—far more factual than the common standard version of "reality" in which many, if not most, people seem to believe, but which I say, and confess, is a delusion.
The 'me' that experiences its relationship with Life, focuses its awareness on its individuality or its wholeness, or both simultaneously.. "I" am the process, whether whole or part or both simultaneously, not the descriptions, not the stories.. i do not expect you to get this understanding, you are self-absorbed in your beliefs of your own factual knowing.. and, in your need to possess a thread you believe you have 'rights' to.. it would be interesting to have a discussion with you where you didn't think you already had all the answers, where you would be willing to see what is actually happening, rather than what you think you 'know' is happening..
Be well..
Be well..
silent energy
16-10-2011, 05:02 AM
At the core of our being exists a pure mirror untarnished and unspoiled by the impressions that fall upon it from the outside world.
Like an inborn immunity, this part of us remains consistently whole, innocent and healthy, even while enduring the numerous involvements and entanglements of this world.
- Pir Vilayat Inayat Khan, "Awakening: A Sufi Experience"
`
I like this very much.
Concepts create a gap between knower and known.
This one too :)
silent energy
16-10-2011, 05:38 AM
Bob you really turn Xans threads into a soap opera with you always trying to take her down. Yes, your experience is your experience and no one can convince you otherwise. When your feeling this your feeling this and when your feeling that your feeling that all Xan is saying is don't identify too closely with it because it changes constantly. What Xan is doing is pointing us towards what is never changing because who you are could never change but this can't be fully explained or understood through concepts because the words dont exist and could never exist. All she can do is point us towards it but all the words she uses everything she says is golden. A golden bridge :D
Greetings..
you already had all the answers,
Be well..
That's what the stage is set for. The purpose, the mission, the harbringing of truth in soft tones of love, but I myself appear as the truth's finest vessle to disolve the highest standing, and lift the very veil first mentioned, for what appears to be purely white consists of true colours, and nothing goes unseen.
Bob you really turn Xans threads into a soap opera with you always trying to take her down. Yes, your experience is your experience and no one can convince you otherwise. When your feeling this your feeling this and when your feeling that your feeling that all Xan is saying is don't identify too closely with it because it changes constantly. What Xan is doing is pointing us towards what is never changing because who you are could never change but this can't be fully explained or understood through concepts because the words dont exist and could never exist. All she can do is point us towards it but all the words she uses everything she says is golden. A golden bridge :D
What Tzu wants desperately to dispel is the idea that this is Xan's thread, when it actually is. Xan is a deep well of patience, and Tzu sees this and in my opinion abuses this fact. There is nothing he hasn't asked her a hundred times and she hasn't answered the same way a hundred times - yet still he persists.
From where I sit, it's plain outright gratuitous harrassment.
Xan, you are a saint for having put up with this for so long - but it appears to me your perpetual tolerance just feeds the problem. I pray you reconsider in this case, and let him know you have already answered, and until he can move on there is really nothing else to say.
When abuse is tolerated, you don't get a tolerant forum - you get an abusive forum.
TzuJanLi
16-10-2011, 02:11 PM
Greetings..
Bob you really turn Xans threads into a soap opera with you always trying to take her down. Yes, your experience is your experience and no one can convince you otherwise. When your feeling this your feeling this and when your feeling that your feeling that all Xan is saying is don't identify too closely with it because it changes constantly. What Xan is doing is pointing us towards what is never changing because who you are could never change but this can't be fully explained or understood through concepts because the words dont exist and could never exist. All she can do is point us towards it but all the words she uses everything she says is golden. A golden bridge :D
You would do well to understand the history, here.. Xan, expresses her beliefs as if they are absolute truths, kind of like your "everything she says is golden" belief.. i asked a valid question relative to the theme of the topic, and Xan stepped in to attempt to enforce her dominion over the topic and the direction she wanted the thread to go.. this is Xan's way, she will not tolerate contradicting opinions.. please read the whole thread. Xan, and others, make wholly unverifiable and self-contradictory statements, then get defensive and confrontational when asked for clarification..
The point is this, i asked a sincere and reasonable question, and, as is Xan's way, she rebuked me without cause.. Xan's relationship with me is prejudiced by previous encounters where she was unable to adequately express how her beliefs relate to a functional existence.. i am interested in advancing the 'actual' potential of Spirituality, not with keeping it stagnant in feel-good mind-play.. the history of Spirituality is conceptual feel-good 'talk', there are just a very few people that will go to the next level, DOing something to improve the the human experience, the 'tangible' manifestation of Spirituality.. Occupy Wall Street has some elements of Spirituality to it, addressing injustices.. the actual potential of Spirituality is so much more than the platitudes of a 'mutual admiration society'.. it's having the trust in what the potential 'is' to DO something other than 'talk' in conceptual riddles.. there, i hope that helps you understand the situation.
Be well..
...You would do well to understand the history, here.. Xan, expresses her beliefs as if they are absolute truths, kind of like your "everything she says is golden" belief.. i asked a valid question relative to the theme of the topic, and Xan stepped in to attempt to enforce her dominion over the topic and the direction she wanted the thread to go.. this is Xan's way, she will not tolerate contradicting opinions.. please read the whole thread. Xan, and others, make wholly unverifiable and self-contradictory statements, then get defensive and confrontational when asked for clarification..
The point is this, i asked a sincere and reasonable question, and, as is Xan's way, she rebuked me without cause.. Xan's relationship with me is prejudiced by previous encounters where she was unable to adequately express how her beliefs relate to a functional existence.. i am interested in advancing the 'actual' potential of Spirituality, not with keeping it stagnant in feel-good mind-play.. the history of Spirituality is conceptual feel-good 'talk', there are just a very few people that will go to the next level, DOing something to improve the the human experience, the 'tangible' manifestation of Spirituality.. Occupy Wall Street has some elements of Spirituality to it, addressing injustices.. the actual potential of Spirituality is so much more than the platitudes of a 'mutual admiration society'.. it's having the trust in what the potential 'is' to DO something other than 'talk' in conceptual riddles.. there, i hope that helps you understand the situation...
WOW Tzu - you really need to let it go.
TzuJanLi
16-10-2011, 02:18 PM
What Tzu wants desperately to dispel is the idea that this is Xan's thread, when it actually is. Xan is a deep well of patience, and Tzu sees this and in my opinion abuses this fact. There is nothing he hasn't asked her a hundred times and she hasn't answered the same way a hundred times - yet still he persists.
From where I sit, it's plain outright gratuitous harrassment.
Xan, you are a saint for having put up with this for so long - but it appears to me your perpetual tolerance just feeds the problem. I pray you reconsider in this case, and let him know you have already answered, and until he can move on there is really nothing else to say.
When abuse is tolerated, you don't get a tolerant forum - you get an abusive forum.
Excellent, Humm.. i will take my leave from this thread, as it seems i have been 'voted off the island'.. please continue without me, and feel free to discuss my failures..
Be well..
Excellent, Humm.. i will take my leave from this thread, as it seems i have been 'voted off the island'.. please continue without me, and feel free to discuss my failures...
As you have been 'discussing' Xan's?
I've made my point - now I will let it go.
I'm no saint, for sure, but I have learned that remaining aware in my inner self - which is the unconditioned "I" - my mind is far less reactive, and dramas like the one with Bob are just part of the scenery.
Still there's no call for judgment on anyone. We each see from where we are in the process of our own life paths.
blessings
Xan
fM55: Is not this stuff you refer to what we call the subjective part of the self, it is the stuff that is we define are selves as, the consciousness that develops specific to the individual which is our autobiographical self.
I don’t see reality as an delusion it is real or the “I” wouldn’t exist here-now in the form it has developed in, wouldn’t it be like saying that the “I” is constructing the delusion?
This is the conditioned identity, learned from family, society, religion and so on. It's not 'real' in the sense that it is acquired and not our pure and innate being.
...isn't life a great gift and one that we should take advantage of in enjoying?
Yes of course. No one here has suggested otherwise.
As I have stated in other threads awareness is the soul they are synonyms.
Isn’t the “I”, awareness, or the soul what we had before physical existence?
Yes... The soul is our awareness, the "I" who is looking out through our eyes and experiencing all that arises.
We come into this world with awareness, awareness of the physical form we are in, it is like a shell, and then develop consciousness year by year while our awareness diminishes. Then one fine day we wonder who and what we are and try to reunite with our awareness/soul that we forgot about.
For me the only real knowing is that of my soul of which I never forgot or where I came from.
I see it this way also. Except to me 'consciousness' and 'awareness' are two terms for the same thing. It's what we are aware Of that makes the difference --- with over-involvement in the surface of life and ourselves through the senses and intellect, or the more expansive and subtle dimensions of being.
Xan
Emmalevine
16-10-2011, 05:12 PM
Great thread, thanks. I'm slowly, bit by bit, letting go of what I am not...and only by doing that can I become aware of who I AM. It's difficult to grasp this concept when there are still so many attachments, whether to body, mind, or emotions...but it's when space is created, imo, that we begin to see a different way of being. In that state we realise who we are. At least, that is how it has been for me.
Well said, Starbuck...
The gradual process of letting go creates a space in our minds to experience what lies beyond its conditioning.
Xan
Miss Hepburn]Lisa - you mean Ethel Merman? Don't you? :D
Probably. She was before my time. :tongue:
(But it did say Kate Smith too)
I remember Ethel - and she had the SPIRIT! :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=icr71H1nb3Q
I'm no saint, for sure, but I have learned that remaining aware in my inner self - which is the unconditioned "I" - my mind is far less reactive, and dramas like the one with Bob are just part of the scenery.
Still there's no call for judgment on anyone. We each see from where we are in the process of our own life paths.
blessings
Xan
You are an example that many, including myself, would do well to emulate.
Thank you. :hug:
Oh gee... If you mean, emulate my determination to remain centered with, then okay.
Xan
I speak to your point - of course.
hybrid
17-10-2011, 11:17 AM
For most human beings, identity is centered in the experiential awareness, "I am." When identified with the finite, "I am" manifests as ego. When identified with the Infinite, "I am" is revealed as the Presence of Awareness - inseparable from the Essence of Reality.
- Metta Zetty
For most human beings, identity is centered in the experiential awareness, "I am." When identified with the finite, "I am" manifests as ego. When identified with the Infinite, "I am" is revealed as the Presence of Awareness - inseparable from the Essence of Reality.
- Metta Zetty
Exactly!
Everything is Truth. :smile:
You are an example that many, including myself, would do well to emulate.
Thank you. :hug:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RuNbNPwrIA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RuNbNPwrIA&feature=related
Nice!
The universe is my Guru. :smile:
sound
17-10-2011, 11:44 AM
Exactly!
Everything is Truth. :smile:
What is Truth exactly :)
Truth is What Is.
What else could it be? :wink:
hybrid
17-10-2011, 11:54 AM
Truth is What Is.
What else could it be? :wink:
what is "what is"?
what is "what is"?
That's for the omniverse to say. :tongue: :wink: :D
sound
17-10-2011, 12:02 PM
Truth is What Is.
What else could it be? :wink:
Well it certainly cant be that which it is not lol ...
hybrid
17-10-2011, 12:13 PM
Well it certainly cant be that which it is not lol ...
i think it can be included to what is, even the what it can be and what i will it be.
what is is so dynamic i have reservation using that phrase
sound
17-10-2011, 12:14 PM
i think it can be included to what is, even the what it can be and what i will it be
True lol .... there is a mountain of potential there :) ...
True lol .... there is a mountain of potential there :) ...
Exactly! Potential - Yes! And you and me and everyone else too! :hug3:
When discussing ideas of this magnitude, the less defined - the less definable - the less you can reach your arms around it - the better! :tongue: :wink: :D
andrew g
17-10-2011, 12:28 PM
i think it can be included to what is, even the what it can be and what i will it be.
what is is so dynamic i have reservation using that phrase
Yes, I get what you mean. It can kind of imply something fixed.
I still use it sometimes though.
andrew g
17-10-2011, 12:33 PM
In a way, existence itself is one big field of potential. I was just thinking this morning about free will. If we think we have free will, it is so, and our reality will mirror that. If we dont think we have free will, it is so, and our reality will mirror that. Its almost as if we are constantly making it up as we go along. Kind of reminds me of that quantum thing where some thing or other can be a particle or a wave. Is it really obvious that Im not a scientist hehe? Oops, what have I just created?!
Anyway, I dont particularly want to talk about free will, but just saw the word 'potential' there and that word is the one Ive been thinking about this morning.
hybrid
17-10-2011, 12:34 PM
yes it is useful to grok what is when you are practicing or meditating, but not when discussing
TzuJanLi
17-10-2011, 12:54 PM
Greetings..
'Isness' is limitless potential, if you say "the ocean is............", then there are no confinements, the ocean has limitless potential.. everything has its own 'isness', its own capacity for change..
Be well..
yes it is useful to grok what is when you are practicing or meditating, but not when discussing
Oh, I don't know - to me all the different opinions and definitions is a constant reminder of the diversity of all that is.
In a way, existence itself is one big field of potential. I was just thinking this morning about free will. If we think we have free will, it is so, and our reality will mirror that. If we dont think we have free will, it is so, and our reality will mirror that. Its almost as if we are constantly making it up as we go along. Kind of reminds me of that quantum thing where some thing or other can be a particle or a wave. Is it really obvious that Im not a scientist hehe? Oops, what have I just created?!
Anyway, I dont particularly want to talk about free will, but just saw the word 'potential' there and that word is the one Ive been thinking about this morning.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, this to me says what I said above... :wink: :D
Sorry - that's just the way my mind works. :icon_frown:
andrew g
17-10-2011, 12:59 PM
Oh, I don't know - to me all the different opinions and definitions is a constant reminder of the diversity of all that is.
At the risk of sounding repetitive, this to me says what I said above... :wink: :D
Sorry - that's just the way my mind works. :icon_frown:
Yes, it was both yours and sound's thoughts that reminded me of my thoughts this morning.
Yes, it was both yours and sound's thoughts that reminded me of my thoughts this morning.
Synergy is a marvellous thing. :smile:
andrew g
17-10-2011, 01:05 PM
Synergy is a marvellous thing. :smile:
Yes! Good word. Thats one for me to reflect on now :smile:
The sooner the identification with the body as a separate entity is lost,
the sooner will the grace of the [master] blossom in the consciousness of the disciple.
- Ramesh S. Balsekar
For most human beings, identity is centered in the experiential awareness, "I am."
When identified with the finite, "I am" manifests as ego.
When identified with the Infinite, "I am" is revealed as the Presence of Awareness -
inseparable from the Essence of Reality.
- Metta Zetty
I was just going to post this myself, hybrid.
This is the exact meaning of this thread... and the essence of spiritual awakening.
Xan
What is Truth exactly :)
Truth is the unboundaried unchanging source and essence of everything... of ourselves,
which may be known in silent awareness beyond the thinking mind.
Potential lies in the nearly infinite variety of expressions of That.
Xan
Miss Hepburn
18-10-2011, 04:12 PM
What is Truth exactly :)
Yes, darn it, what is it exactly....:D
:wink:
_________________________________
I think I'll have to look up this Metta Zetty!
Originally Posted by hybrid
For most human beings, identity is centered in the experiential awareness, "I am."
When identified with the finite, "I am" manifests as ego.
When identified with the Infinite, "I am" is revealed as the Presence of Awareness -
inseparable from the Essence of Reality.
- Metta Zetty
Amilius777
18-10-2011, 07:57 PM
I am so glad I moved away from Eastern Spirituality for a while. It was beginning to make me hate everything. Everything is illusion. Everything is maya. You are maya, my granddad is maya. My life is an illusion. The universe is an illusion. My buttocks are an illusion. I am done with it. I need some sort of identification to survive. And that is I am a spirit. And I am a soul and none of these western or eastern beliefs will take that away from me. I am a spiritual personality that never disappears. My creative spark in the arts, how I express myself, and so forth is who I am. I found who I am. I am a child of the Creative Spirit.
I really feel like Eastern spirituality like Western has gone through so many twists and turns. I don't believe in the annihilation of ego. I believe we must give up our delusional egos for the greater of the world. The ego that I am a man, I am a woman, or I am anything with a label. Its all b/s. Just ways for society to get away from our inner self. The basic foundation of the Eastern Idea is shared with even western Jesuit priests and even Wiccan covens- The good for the All, and the giving up of your selfishness and egoism (The me first principle, me first!).
I am so glad I moved away from Eastern Spirituality for a while. It was beginning to make me hate everything. Everything is illusion. Everything is maya. You are maya, my granddad is maya. My life is an illusion. The universe is an illusion. My buttocks are an illusion. I am done with it. I need some sort of identification to survive. And that is I am a spirit. And I am a soul and none of these western or eastern beliefs will take that away from me. I am a spiritual personality that never disappears. My creative spark in the arts, how I express myself, and so forth is who I am. I found who I am. I am a child of the Creative Spirit.
I really feel like Eastern spirituality like Western has gone through so many twists and turns. I don't believe in the annihilation of ego. I believe we must give up our delusional egos for the greater of the world. The ego that I am a man, I am a woman, or I am anything with a label. Its all b/s. Just ways for society to get away from our inner self. The basic foundation of the Eastern Idea is shared with even western Jesuit priests and even Wiccan covens- The good for the All, and the giving up of your selfishness and egoism (The me first principle, me first!).
Dude - I would be SO grateful if you were to start a thread and just cut and paste your post to be the first post of the thread. Call it whatever you want - something appropriate - I'll see you there if you do! :smile:
I think I'll have to look up this Metta Zetty!
Yes... She's a beautiful truth teacher and mentor, with a great story of her epiphany.
Here you go, if you haven't found her already: Awakening into Awareness - http://awakening.net/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fawakening.net%2F)
Xan
`
The fact is that because no one thing or feature of this universe
is separable from the whole,
the only real You, or Self, is the whole.
- Alan Watts
`
`
There is no greater mystery than this,
that we keep seeking reality though, in fact, we are reality.
We think that there is something hiding reality
and that this must be destroyed before reality is gained.
How ridiculous!
A day will dawn when you will laugh at all your past efforts.
That which will be the day you laugh is also here and now.
- Ramana Maharshi
`
TzuJanLi
18-10-2011, 09:13 PM
Greetings..
`
The fact is that because no one thing or feature of this universe
is separable from the whole,
the only real You, or Self, is the whole.
- Alan Watts
`
And, because the individual unique self is 'part of that Whole', it is equally real..
Be well..
Elijah
18-10-2011, 11:19 PM
It's often been said that there is a seer behind everything, or that's how people have viewed it...
..That still gives the idea that there is something there.
But occasionally, with a bit more clarity, it's been described as 'There is only seeing'. There isn't a seer but just seeing.
That's it. Or being - there is only seeing or being. That's all there is.
~ Tony Parsons ~
TzuJanLi
19-10-2011, 01:29 AM
Greetings..
It's often been said that there is a seer behind everything, or that's how people have viewed it...
..That still gives the idea that there is something there.
But occasionally, with a bit more clarity, it's been described as 'There is only seeing'. There isn't a seer but just seeing.
That's it. Or being - there is only seeing or being. That's all there is.
~ Tony Parsons ~
That's Tony's belief, and you have seen his words.. if there is no 'seer', what is 'seen'?.. aye, what is seen?.. it's clear you are one of many in a Universe of 'seers', the issue is what 'is' seen?
Be well..
`
Loosen your fixation on seeing
and on what is seen.
To become free you must see the seer.
- Papaji
`
TzuJanLi
19-10-2011, 09:43 AM
Greetings..
`
Loosen your fixation on seeing
and on what is seen.
To become free you must see the seer.
- Papaji
`
Words of others delight the ears
Worshiping them sincerely
For years and years
No self can hear
Or see clearly
The seer had never 'looked'
Inward dearly..
Be well..
sunny shine
19-10-2011, 03:32 PM
Here's another practice I suggest for discovering who you really are:
Breathe down into the quiet open space within yourself, which may appear at first to be in the center of your body.
Notice how your thoughts being to quiet down and you begin to feel more centered.
Continue with the practice as often as you remember, and you will come into a subtle sense of 'presence' - your own presence, your inner self, your Being.
I call this Breathing Within.
Xan
Have you been able to discover your Self with this practice. It would be great if you share your personal experiences with this or any other method. Thanks
Sunny... I had already discovered the Self / my inner presence before I developed this practice, but others have begun through it.
Now it supports my being aware in This continuously, and keeps me going deeper.
By Breathing Within regularly there's a sense of centeredness and ease in life, not only spiritually but everything seems to go a little easier.
Of course, one can only try it out and experience this for themselves.
Xan
edit: Please also see post #122.
moke64916
20-10-2011, 02:50 AM
There is much much more to spirituality besides awareness. Yes you need awareness to progress spiritually. Yes when you are fully aware, you are fully present. There are more ways to finding yourself that Cannot be described. You could go with the flow. With that you are in acceptance, nonresistance, and nonreactive. And these three words will lead you to the Now where the immeasurable and indescribable recedes. Then once you stay in the present moment everyday, you see yourself as being, and then there is an ongoing process of remembering who you are. Truths and more truths that are never ending. It takes many centuries and many lifetimes to fully remember who you are. Who you are is The Source. But it may take many lifetimes for one to experience themselves as The Source. But the only way to experience the source experiencing the source is in the present moment, because thoughts cannot ever understand it, but your visions and intuition in the Now can. A knowing without conditional thought. And in the stillness there is love, joy, peace, and bliss. And the feelings of these feelings are never ending. They just deepen and deepen. When you enjoy the feelings you are energizing it, creating even a deeper feeling. There can be two people that have made it, and live in the Now, but one persons truths may get deeper than the others thoughout their lifetime. I Honestly do not think that Eckhart Tolle is a spiritual master, because he doesn't fully remember who he is. He talks about the surface issues and how to get to a state of being, but a true master is one who fully remembers all that he/she is. That's just my opinion. I think Eckhart Tolle has much more truth that has not been reveiled to him yet. I think Eckhart Tolle's truths are still deepening. But until one remembers all there ever was, is, and ever will be, I would not consider anyone a spiritual master. I think the closest man that got to fully remembering who he was was Jesus. I would consider him a master. But since the process of Remembering is never ending, until it is, I would not consider anyone on earth to be a true master. Only when one fully remembers is when they become a master in my opinion. Evolution is a process of Remembering. Peace.
Moke
moke64916
20-10-2011, 02:54 AM
Sunny... I had already discovered the Self / my inner presence before I developed this practice, but others have begun through it.
Now it supports my being aware in This continuously, and keeps me going deeper.
By Breathing Within regularly there's a sense of centeredness and ease in life, not only spiritually but everything seems to go a little easier.
Of course, one can only try it out and experience this for themselves.
Xan
When you say awareness, I think present in the moment. They are two of the same. So with your awareness(in the Now) your feeling deepen and deepen. That's how I procieve it. Yet we all have our own truths. They are the same, just different words to express it. I love you Xan. Peace.
Have you been able to discover your Self with this practice. It would be great if you share your personal experiences with this or any other method. Thanks
Sunny... I neglected to say that the breathing practice for remaining aware within during the day is an extension of a meditation designed to open you simple and naturally into the inner Self.
This is the method: Three Steps into your true nature - http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=32551#post32551 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fshowthread.php%253 Fp%253D32551%2523post32551)
Xan
sunny shine
20-10-2011, 04:20 AM
Sunny... I neglected to say that the breathing practice for remaining aware within during the day is an extension of a meditation designed to open you simple and naturally into the inner Self.
This is the method: Three Steps into your true nature - http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?p=32551#post32551 (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fshowthread.php%25253Fp%25253D32 551%252523post32551)
Xan
Thank you Xan
sunny shine
20-10-2011, 04:21 AM
Sunny... I had already discovered the Self / my inner presence before I developed this practice, but others have begun through it.
Now it supports my being aware in This continuously, and keeps me going deeper.
By Breathing Within regularly there's a sense of centeredness and ease in life, not only spiritually but everything seems to go a little easier.
Of course, one can only try it out and experience this for themselves.
Xan
edit: Please also see post #122.
Good to meet self realized on this forum. Please share your experiences for seekers like me. Thanks
sunny shine
20-10-2011, 04:24 AM
. But since the process of Remembering is never ending, until it is, I would not consider anyone on earth to be a true master. Only when one fully remembers is when they become a master in my opinion. Evolution is a process of Remembering. Peace.
Moke
I am unable to understand your point. What do you mean when you say you have to fully remember? are you meaning the different lives that one goes through evolving themselves or Self Realization that Ramana Maharishi and other gurus talk about
Elijah
20-10-2011, 01:04 PM
When there has been this disappearance into pure Being, there is nothing more to be seen, its either you have been there or you haven’t..
You cannot just pep through into your Being and say that you are half Awakened, its just too silly for words.
No matter what you believe you have found, while you are still out there trying to find what IS, no matter how much of what IS you believe you have seen, your still playing the game of being lost and trying to find home.
So its either you are home, or your not and if your not, then you are still under the influence of the illusionary ego mind.
You are still seeing what is within you as something you still need to work on but there is nothing to work on..
~ Psychoslice ~
Good to meet self realized on this forum. Please share your experiences for seekers like me. Thanks
Thank you sunny, but Self discovered (experiencing) and Self realized (knowing it's 'me') are two different steps along the way, and both are processes in awakening consciousness.
Some years ago I recognized that what I wanted most of all was to become free (of my conflicted ego mind) and I was committed to doing whatever it took.
Since that point many teachings and teachers and methods for meditation and for releasing mind patterns came to me... each one what I needed for the time, and I said "yes" to each one.
Like most people I began true awakening with glimpses of the pure open space within and all around me. As I went on in understanding and practice, those glimpses came more frequently and increased my appetite for experiencing the lightness, the sense of wholeness, the joy and love for-no-reason.
Now my awareness in This is constant, yet there is still ongoing discovery of all that exists beyond the mind... and daily surrender of the surface identity and its patterns into It... the true "I" of being and universal beingness.
Xan
sunny shine
21-10-2011, 11:37 PM
Thank you sunny, but Self discovered (experiencing) and Self realized (knowing it's 'me') are two different steps along the way, and both are processes in awakening consciousness.
Some years ago I recognized that what I wanted most of all was to become free (of my conflicted ego mind) and I was committed to doing whatever it took.
Since that point many teachings and teachers and methods for meditation and for releasing mind patterns came to me... each one what I needed for the time, and I said "yes" to each one.
Like most people I began true awakening with glimpses of the pure open space within and all around me. As I went on in understanding and practice, those glimpses came more frequently and increased my appetite for experiencing the lightness, the sense of wholeness, the joy and love for-no-reason.
Now my awareness in This is constant, yet there is still ongoing discovery of all that exists beyond the mind... and daily surrender of the surface identity and its patterns into It... the true "I" of being and universal beingness.
Xanvery nice I can sense your presence from your posts. great going
moke64916
22-10-2011, 04:40 PM
I am unable to understand your point. What do you mean when you say you have to fully remember? are you meaning the different lives that one goes through evolving themselves or Self Realization that Ramana Maharishi and other gurus talk about
After one stays in the now, that is just the beginning. More and more truth is known. Yet we are The Source, and The Source knows all there is, was, and ever will be. Yet we forgot Who we were in full, and evolution is a process of evolving or remembering, growing. Even a master is still learning. But it depends on what one defines a master. I think the closest person to walk this earth to get closest to Full Remembering was Jesus. As The Source, which we are, we can know everything, yet it takes centuries and many lifetimes to remember.
TzuJanLi
22-10-2011, 05:18 PM
Greetings..
After one stays in the now, that is just the beginning. More and more truth is known. Yet we are The Source, and The Source knows all there is, was, and ever will be. Yet we forgot Who we were in full, and evolution is a process of evolving or remembering, growing. Even a master is still learning. But it depends on what one defines a master. I think the closest person to walk this earth to get closest to Full Remembering was Jesus. As The Source, which we are, we can know everything, yet it takes centuries and many lifetimes to remember.
Or, it only takes a simple choice, your personal choice let-go of the prejudices, conditioning, expectations, hopes and dreams..
Be well..
moke64916
22-10-2011, 05:22 PM
Greetings..
Or, it only takes a simple choice, your personal choice let-go of the prejudices, conditioning, expectations, hopes and dreams..
Be well..
Or in other words accepting and staying present in the Now. Where there is no expectation, conditioning, prejudices, or judgement.
TzuJanLi
22-10-2011, 05:36 PM
Greetings..
Or in other words accepting and staying present in the Now. Where there is no expectation, conditioning, prejudices, or judgement.
When you 'let go' of expectation, conditioning, prejudices, or judgement, why replace it with more concepts, like "accepting and staying present in the Now"? just let go..
Be well..
I agree... Why define what you are letting go of when you can develop the habit of letting go all the time.
Then what remains is Now, is the true "I", is the nameless presence.......
Xan
Or in other words accepting and staying present in the Now. Where there is no expectation, conditioning, prejudices, or judgement.
Or in those exact words.
moke64916
22-10-2011, 06:46 PM
Or in those exact words.
Tu-Shay.:smile:
moke64916
22-10-2011, 06:49 PM
I agree... Why define what you are letting go of when you can develop the habit of letting go all the time.
Then what remains is Now, is the true "I", is the nameless presence.......
Xan
Amen. But I do have a name in the Spirit world for my Being, but on earth that would be a mind identification with who you are, so I leave it remained unnamed. Even calling it The Source is a name for who you are.
But it is that which cannot be described. The immeasurable, and indescribable. All in which happens in the eternal present moment of Now. Peace.:angel8:
Mystery is my God - that being the best word to indicate the blank.
moke64916
23-10-2011, 03:21 PM
Your being cannot be named or described. The souls language is feeling. The being that is within us all cannot even be named The Source because this is all an identification with mind as in who you are. Then you get stuck. And when you name your being you are more likely to think in reference to it. But if you remain silent and keep it unnamed, there is no identification.
Your being cannot be named or described. The souls language is feeling. The being that is within us all cannot even be named The Source because this is all an identification with mind as in who you are. Then you get stuck. And when you name your being you are more likely to think in reference to it. But if you remain silent and keep it unnamed, there is no identification.
You got it exactly! :smile:
Yep... Our best words are not for naming and defining but for pointing toward It...
Xan
-
At the moment of realization the person ceases.
Identity remains, but identity is not a person,
it is inherent in the reality itself.
- Nisardagatta Maharaj
`
-
At the moment of realization the person ceases.
Identity remains, but identity is not a person,
it is inherent in the reality itself.
- Nisardagatta Maharaj
`
Wow - that really frightens my ego. :smile:
Wow - that really frightens my ego.
Of course it does.
The ego / false self-identity is afraid of change
and of finding out it's not the real 'me'
which it considers death.
Spiritual growth takes courage,
to go through the scary parts and out the other side
into the fear-free zone of being
where you are more alive than ever.
Xan
-
At the moment of realization the person ceases.
Identity remains, but identity is not a person,
it is inherent in the reality itself.
- Nisardagatta Maharaj
`
Water to a man dying of thirst. Nothing but YES!
`
You live, you feel, you think.
By giving attention to your living, feeling and thinking,
you free yourself from them and go beyond them.
Your personality dissolves and only the witness remains.
Then you go beyond the witness.
Do not ask how it happens.
Just search within yourself.
- Nisardagatta Maharaj
`
`
My "teaching" is that we ARE unconditional Love.
No person, no "God", just Love unfolding.
The "nothingness" everyone talks about is seen as "everythingness" from here.
I have uncovered the truth of my "faith" by living it, trusting it, and being it.
A "teacher" lives his "teaching".
Realize you are Love unfolding, and live accordingly.
It is no more complicated than that!
~Bill Lindley
`
Miss Hepburn
28-10-2011, 12:39 PM
Maharaj: Everything happens out of our own Self. This consciousness is spontaneously felt in the Self only. This "I" is not an individual. What is, is the Absolute unmanifested. What appears, as if in a dream, is the manifested, relative world, and this experience of the dream­like state is the same, an identical state, for everyone.
In this process of functioning that becomes manifest, if you accept something as an individual event then it affects you as an individual. If you do not take delivery as an individual but as total functioning, then you are free of whatever is happening. The knowledge of the Self is this dream-like feeling of "I Amness".
~ Nisargadatta
Miss Hepburn
28-10-2011, 12:42 PM
Maharaj: By assuming a separate identity one taints that which is taintless; that is the original sin.
~ Nisargadatta
TzuJanLi
28-10-2011, 01:13 PM
Greetings..
Maharaj: By assuming a separate identity one taints that which is taintless; that is the original sin.
~ Nisargadatta
By assuming a functional integrated identity, there is no sin..
The difference is subtle and profound..
Be well..
Emmalevine
28-10-2011, 01:25 PM
Wow - that really frightens my ego.
Of course it does.
The ego / false self-identity is afraid of change
and of finding out it's not the real 'me'
which it considers death.
Spiritual growth takes courage,
to go through the scary parts and out the other side
into the fear-free zone of being
where you are more alive than ever.
Xan
I've noticed that when I feel immense peace inside and a freedom/expansion of self another part of me feels very vulnerable, almost like a child in wanting to cling to anything familiar. It happens every time. It's like having to make a leap off a cliff believing I will fly yet at the last second turning back to embrace land.
Beautifully said, Starbuck.
We cling at that last second... until, surprisingly, we don't.
Xan
By assuming a separate identity one taints that which is taintless; that is the original sin. ~ Nisargadatta
By assuming a functional integrated identity, there is no sin..
The difference is subtle and profound..
The significant word in the quote from Nisargatta is 'separate' identity.
The loss of interconnectedness in the oneness is the 'sin'... the error.
As we reawaken in the unity
there is still an individual "I"
but no longer sensed in separation
cut off from each other
and from the wholeness.
Xan
moke64916
28-10-2011, 04:16 PM
And only can this oneness/unity be known with love from oneself.
Pay attention to and inquire into the nature of your own immediate experience.
Become the Witness or Observer of your own experience.
Investigate the "Given Conditions" of being human, "I am - Aware - Now":
the sense of identity, or being, at the center of your own experience
which manifests as "I am",
the Awareness through which you perceive everything within and around you ,
the immediacy and Infinity of Now.
- Metta Zetty
These three basic conditions of being human ["I am - Aware - Now"] are profound pointers to our True Nature.
We simply overlook them in our rush to identify ourselves with "outward" conditions,
i.e., a body, memory, personality and the illusion of time.
Simply paying attention - looking at and remembering these basic essential conditions - is enough
for they are the vehicle through which we experience and Recognize
the vast and Infinite nature of Reality.
- Metta Zetty
TzuJanLi
29-10-2011, 06:30 PM
Greetings..
These three basic conditions of being human ["I am - Aware - Now"] are profound pointers to our True Nature.
We simply overlook them in our rush to identify ourselves with "outward" conditions,
i.e., a body, memory, personality and the illusion of time.
Simply paying attention - looking at and remembering these basic essential conditions - is enough
for they are the vehicle through which we experience and Recognize
the vast and Infinite nature of Reality.
- Metta Zetty
If it was left at, "Simply paying attention", yes.. but, as in most cases, it is followed by instructions to 'what and how'.. then, there is the matter who prefers what and how, and.. well, i think you can see the problems..
Be well..
I see no problem, Tzu... unless there's a lot of mental discussion and 'trying to figure it out' going on... which is not 'simply paying attention' is it?
The simplicity is... at some point each person finds a way to remain in present awareness that works for them, and keeps on with it.
Xan
Mr Interesting
29-10-2011, 09:05 PM
I'm at the end of page 16...
Nope, nothing is coming to mind to fill the gap.
Good Golly, still nothing but at the end of nothing I do this.
This threads called What "I" am
so the question is you are what?
What is cool because it has that thing where your tongue stops at the top of the mouth with a lovely little tap. I's kinda neat 'cause it chucks air up from the bottom of the throat.
Am's kinda like I. Altogether they slide and miss those guttural stops.
Split it up and break it down to just the emphasised throat and mouth movements and it's quite a chirpy little beat.
Silver
29-10-2011, 09:30 PM
You're so funny~*
TzuJanLi
29-10-2011, 11:22 PM
Greetings..
I see no problem, Tzu...
Xan
I was under no illusion that you would, Xan..
Be well..
I take that as a compliment, Tzu...
Xan
TzuJanLi
29-10-2011, 11:45 PM
Greetings..
By assuming a separate identity one taints that which is taintless; that is the original sin. ~ Nisargadatta
Tzu: By assuming a functional integrated identity, there is no sin..
The difference is subtle and profound..
Xan:The significant word in the quote from Nisargatta is 'separate' identity.
The loss of interconnectedness in the oneness is the 'sin'... the error.
As we reawaken in the unity
there is still an individual "I"
but no longer sensed in separation
cut off from each other
and from the wholeness.
Xan
I am not familiar with the people that are supposed to be "separate" and "cut off".. everyone i converse with about these issues, and there are many, understands the interconnectedness.. the more i listen to the feedback loop of the "separate" belief.. the more i am convinced it is "lipstick on a pig", put there so it can be washed off, and the pig's true identity 'liberated'.. and the liberators taking the credit for liberating that which first they disguised..
Be well..
Yes, many people these days do understand the idea of interconnectedness.
It's quite another thing, though, to experience it intimately within and around oneself.
Xan
Papa Bear
30-10-2011, 01:37 AM
My goodness or do I mean `I` goodness, just took the time and patience to read through this entire thread, respect to all personal reflections. But unless you’re entering a monastery, or you have already lived the best part of your life already, is it not a little premature to return to our source Spiritual reflection, while we still have some very interesting wonders to find and share, and become aware of.
I understand the essence of meaning in most `quotes`, and the benefits of seeking self-understanding, and for those who have found a contentment in its self-clarification, well done, my respects for your achievement, I`ll join you you when my time comes. But if the Spirit I am, did not wish to cut some slack, from my own `essence` in being, then `I` would not have chosen to be the perceivable, thinking, feeling human being that `I am` in this now.
Now I recognize that many eastern religious and philosophical traditions, and their western translations, of how we may find harmony in self-peace and awareness, have a Spiritual source to their reflection, but, if the required reflection of who `I am` does not include the reality and practicality, of my human truth in being, in existence, then I delude my awareness to believe, I have not really arrived here, because the only reason for coming, was to get out of town as quickly as possible.
Discovering inner peace is a wonderful experience, but human life and its interconnectivity, as shared feelings and thoughts, has Spiritual meaning and purpose, and most young people, have to develop their abilities to embrace those shared experiences wholeheartedly.
I am very proud of the human being I am, as an expression of the Spirit I am, who decided to have this adventure. And because the interconnectivity I share in Love with other Spiritual human beings, creates new, in every shared moment, I see no reason to remove worth from those wonderful new discoveries.
I am content that in eternal existence, there has never been any hurry to either remember everything that’s been forgotten, or quickly return to the purest clarity from whence I came, while there are new, limiting experiences to gain insights from. So that when I naturally evolve to the `now` from whence I came, I shall have, not only a splendid understanding of the extraordinary wonders of variation to who or what `I AM`, but all I have been, and I will share it with the `whole`.
That is just my limited reflection of what `I am` in this now.
TzuJanLi
30-10-2011, 02:23 AM
Greetings..
Yes, many people these days do understand the idea of interconnectedness.
It's quite another thing, though, to experience it intimately within and around oneself.
Xan
It is quite another thing, yet again, Xan.. to imply one's own perceived 'interconnectedness' as the measure by which others must compare.. no measure given, though, to others' understandings as, "quite another thing, though", to be fair...
I experience a certain and very present 'Now' awareness of many people's understandings of interconnectedness.. there's a hopefulness emerging as people translate imaginary conceptual interconnectedness, into a social activism that actually benefits others, as opposed to one's own mind celebrating its conceptual intimacy "within and around" itself..
Be well..
My goodness or do I mean `I` goodness, just took the time and patience to read through this entire thread, respect to all personal reflections. But unless you’re entering a monastery, or you have already lived the best part of your life already, is it not a little premature to return to our source Spiritual reflection, while we still have some very interesting wonders to find and share, and become aware of.
I understand the essence of meaning in most `quotes`, and the benefits of seeking self-understanding, and for those who have found a contentment in its self-clarification, well done, my respects for your achievement, I`ll join you you when my time comes. But if the Spirit I am, did not wish to cut some slack, from my own `essence` in being, then `I` would not have chosen to be the perceivable, thinking, feeling human being that `I am` in this now.
Now I recognize that many eastern religious and philosophical traditions, and their western translations, of how we may find harmony in self-peace and awareness, have a Spiritual source to their reflection, but, if the required reflection of who `I am` does not include the reality and practicality, of my human truth in being, in existence, then I delude my awareness to believe, I have not really arrived here, because the only reason for coming, was to get out of town as quickly as possible.
Discovering inner peace is a wonderful experience, but human life and its interconnectivity, as shared feelings and thoughts, has Spiritual meaning and purpose, and most young people, have to develop their abilities to embrace those shared experiences wholeheartedly.
I am very proud of the human being I am, as an expression of the Spirit I am, who decided to have this adventure. And because the interconnectivity I share in Love with other Spiritual human beings, creates new, in every shared moment, I see no reason to remove worth from those wonderful new discoveries.
I am content that in eternal existence, there has never been any hurry to either remember everything that’s been forgotten, or quickly return to the purest clarity from whence I came, while there are new, limiting experiences to gain insights from. So that when I naturally evolve to the `now` from whence I came, I shall have, not only a splendid understanding of the extraordinary wonders of variation to who or what `I AM`, but all I have been, and I will share it with the `whole`.
That is just my limited reflection of what `I am` in this now.
Lovely post PB - Thank you for sharing now! :wink: :smile:
Papa Bear... I don't recall anywhere in this thread that our humanness has been denied in the discovery of our inherent "I" as pure being.
Since this awareness is natural... our true nature... there's no reason we couldn't also live our lives of family and friends, work and recreation, health and wellbeing, learning and developing our abilities, and contributing to the betterment of individuals and society.
In past traditions this clear awareness has been sought and developed mostly by monks, nuns and others who have withdrawn from ordinary life, but in these unusual days regular folks are waking up in This and living in more harmony, joy and love because of it.
We are basically the same unique person but our priorities, and our capacities for freedom, enjoyment and compassion increase.
I hope people don't allow their notions about awakening inner awareness to keep them from going ahead, in their own timing and their own way.
Xan
Papa Bear
30-10-2011, 09:17 PM
Hi Xan, I seek what you seek I respect what you reflect and your motivations for doing so. And as strongly as you feel regarding our source nature, I also feel. But when I read through the entire thread I was, filled by my own humanity and it filled me with a demand for expression. So in that moment, I had to express freely, or deny my own human awareness in that moment. A while later I seriously considered returning to delete the post, for the same reasons you have reflected. But, since the essence of the question was `what I am` especially relating to the moment of recognition, I decided to leave it, because it was an honest reflection regarding me, in that moment.
Yes there seemed to be a reaction to the contents of the whole thread, but it was not a reaction to any individual post, or poster, but rather the essence of intention, and it seemed to be excluding the simple nature of the human being. Rightly or wrongly, that was my impression, and my post seemed to be a reflection of the simplicities of human nature, and their part in our whole experience of existence.
With complete sincerity, I directed no criticism towards any held belief, in any post, far from it, as in truth, I know the experience being reflected. Which is why I was surprised at my response, but I have also, over many years, realized the nature of `being earthed` to coin a phrase, and maybe that had something to do with it. I could just as easily agreed with the essence of intention that arose throughout the thread, and been just as true to myself, as the content I did post.
I suppose the simplest way to look at it, is to consider something you reflected yourself; “The simplicity is... at some point each person finds a way to remain in present awareness that works for them, and keeps on with it.” Because that defines exactly what I did.
Questioner: When asked about the means for self-realisation, you invariably stress the importance of the mind dwelling on the sense [not the thought] 'I am'.
Where is the causal factor? Why should this particular thought result in self-realisation? How does the contemplation of 'I am' affect me?
Maharaj: The very fact of observation alters the observer and the observed.
After all, what prevents the insight into one's true nature is the weakness and obtuseness of the mind and its tendency to skip the subtle and focus on the gross only.
When you follow my advice and try to keep your mind on the notion of 'I am' only, you become fully aware of your mind and its vagaries.
Awareness, being lucid harmony (sattva) in action, dissolves dullness and quietens the restlessness of the mind and gently, but steadily changes its very substance.
This change need not be spectacular; it may be hardly noticeable; yet it is a deep and fundamental shift from darkness to light, from inadvertence to awareness.
- Nisardagatta Maharaj, from I Am That
`
What are we afraid to lose
by coming to complete awareness
of what we are?
. . .
It's not necessary to have an identity
to enjoy this existence.
- Mooji
`
TzuJanLi
31-10-2011, 04:38 AM
Greetings..
`
What are we afraid to lose
by coming to complete awareness
of what we are?
. . .
It's not necessary to have an identity
to enjoy this existence.
- Mooji
`
What are you afraid to gain
by accepting your identity
as who you have become,
other than the Whole truth
that your experiences shaped
that person we all see
that person you fear to be
...
It is not necessary to reject your identity
to enjoy ALL of existence, including this one, too..
identity is a meaning, that identifies 'you',
memories, beliefs, hopes and dreams..
all the things you always knew..
it is exactly as it seems,
you are all of those identity things..
those and so much more..
Be well..
Swami Chihuahuananda
31-10-2011, 11:33 AM
It's kinda funny , reading all this ; nothing new , but all interesting . Different ways of distilling complex perceptions (or are they complex ?) into more simple, agreed upon descriptions of I-ness .
Me?.... I am that which is :wink:
You? ... you are me and I are we and we are all toghether.
I am the walrus :icon_eek: :D
It is not necessary to reject your identity
to enjoy ALL of existence, including this one, too..
identity is a meaning, that identifies 'you'
This is the paradox:
As we accept the false, learned identity we've been living
we may discover our true nature beyond 'you' and 'me'...
the true, undefined, "I".
Xan
`
TzuJanLi
01-11-2011, 01:20 AM
Greetings..
It is not necessary to reject your identity
to enjoy ALL of existence, including this one, too..
identity is a meaning, that identifies 'you'
This is the paradox:
It's only when we accept that
we've been living as a false, learned identity
that we may discover our true nature
beyond 'you' and 'me'
the true "I".
Xan
`
There is nothing "beyond you and me", Xan.. because 'we' are that, too.. when you can accept it all, rather than separate it out into parts you think are real and parts you think are false, it will make sense.. you will be free to be 'you', Part and/or Whole.. there's no 'real' difference..
Be well..
Bob, I hear you saying you don't yet have the discernment to tell the difference between
the world of appearances, of conditioned identity - made up by the ever-changing mind
and what is true, of uncreated 'being' - of the essence, unboundaried and eternal.
No judgment, just an acknowledgement of where you're at.
Xan
TzuJanLi
01-11-2011, 02:00 AM
Greetings..
Bob, I hear you saying you don't yet have the discernment to tell the difference between
the world of appearances, of conditioned identity - made up by the ever-changing mind
and what is true, of uncreated 'being' - of the essence, unboundaried and eternal.
No judgment, just an acknowledgement of where you're at.
XanNo, Xan.. you are hearing what you need to hear to substantiate your beliefs.. i'm explaining my experience that there is no difference between what you believe is "made up by the ever-changing mind and what is true, of uncreated 'being' - of the essence, unboundaried and eternal.".. the reason there is no difference is there can't be, except as a conceptual belief.. otherwise, it's all conscious energy exploring its own existence.. One Process, Many Manifestations..
Be Well..
hybrid
01-11-2011, 02:14 AM
Rest and Be Taken
When there is deep abundance
there is nowhere to abide.
There is nowhere to rest
or grasp onto
and yet there is rest
The sky abides
yet it never rests.
Neither can we say that
the sky is not always at rest.
We talk about the sky
as if it were something
as if it actually exists -
and yet we cannot say that
the sky does not exist.
The sky is nothing but
coming and going.
Everything is perfectly spontaneous.
The coming and going arise mutually
instantaneously.
If the true I is asleep
you will miss the point entirely
and you will continue to dwell
in the world of opposites.
So see the two as one
and the one as empty
and be liberated
within the world of duality.
At first it seems
as if begoing follows becoming.
But look even closer
and you will see
that there are only
flashes of lightning
illuminating the empty sky.
Life and death
becoming and begoing
are only words.
In order to save your life
you must see that you die
instantaneously
moment to moment
instant to instant.
Now where are you going to abide?
And where are you not abiding already?
Indeed there is nowhere
to rest your head
and there is nothing but rest.
So let go of all ideas
about permanence and impermanence
about cause and effect
and about no cause and no effect.
All such notions are dualistic concepts.
The Truth of what you are
is completely beyond all duality
and all notions of non-duality,
and yet it includes duality
and non-duality alike.
Like an ocean
that is both waves and stillness
and yet un-definable
as waves or stillness.
The truth of being
cannot be grasped by ideas
or experiences.
Both waves and stillness
are the manifest activity
or your own self.
But self cannot be defined
by its activity
nor by its non-activity.
The truth is
all-transcendent
ungraspable, all-inclusive
and closer than your own skin.
A single thought about it
obscures its essence.
The perfume of true life
is right in your nose.
There is nothing you can do
to perceive it
and yet you must do something.
I say:
Rest and be taken.
Rest and be taken.
- Adyashanti
BlueSky
01-11-2011, 02:28 AM
very nice Hybrid........
moke64916
01-11-2011, 02:37 AM
Great thread Xan. It's wonderful to express our creative thoughts. :smile:
Yes! I love this thread Xan.
My heart rests in your words. Keep it coming! :smile:
_/\_
namaste, all
...means, the true "I' in me honors the true "I" in you
Xan
hybrid
01-11-2011, 12:07 PM
When you start to inquire in this way, you may pass through many layers, rather like peeling an onion. Every time you ask the question, "Who am I?" the mind will kick up an answer. "I am a man or a woman, I am rich or poor, I am educated or a simple person." But do not stop with any of these answers. Keep asking and going deeper. To this question, all the answers given by the mind are false. You may shift from identifying with the body to identifying with your thoughts, believing that you are the thinking mind. But that, too, is being experienced. You may drop deeper, into an identification with feelings. But feelings also are passing, coming and going. Finally, you come to the label "me." Who am I? Me. I am me.
Stay with this "me." Try to find it; try to investigate its real nature. You may be surprised to find that it is a challenge to locate a "me." It cannot be found. It simply is not there. And yet this moment is being experienced; sounds are being heard; form and movement are being seen. In the absence of any entity to be found, what remains?
This simple practice returns you home to yourself, to infinity.
- Arjuna Ardagh
Miss Hepburn
02-11-2011, 01:33 AM
Finally, you come to the label "me." Who am I? Me. I am me.
Stay with this "me." Try to find it; try to investigate its real nature. You may be surprised to find that it is a challenge to locate a "me." It cannot be found. It simply is not there. And yet this moment is being experienced; sounds are being heard; form and movement are being seen. In the absence of any entity to be found, what remains?
This simple practice returns you home to yourself, to infinity.
- Arjuna Ardagh
Excellent.
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 03:14 AM
Greetings..
When you start to inquire in this way, you may pass through many layers, rather like peeling an onion. Every time you ask the question, "Who am I?" the mind will kick up an answer. "I am a man or a woman, I am rich or poor, I am educated or a simple person." But do not stop with any of these answers. Keep asking and going deeper. To this question, all the answers given by the mind are false. You may shift from identifying with the body to identifying with your thoughts, believing that you are the thinking mind. But that, too, is being experienced. You may drop deeper, into an identification with feelings. But feelings also are passing, coming and going. Finally, you come to the label "me." Who am I? Me. I am me.
Stay with this "me." Try to find it; try to investigate its real nature. You may be surprised to find that it is a challenge to locate a "me." It cannot be found. It simply is not there. And yet this moment is being experienced; sounds are being heard; form and movement are being seen. In the absence of any entity to be found, what remains?
This simple practice returns you home to yourself, to infinity.
- Arjuna Ardagh
Yet, every answer to the question "Who Am I", is true.. as there is nothing your are not.. 'me' is easy to find, it's the result of the sum-total of the experiences of the being asking the question "Who Am I", and.. some beings' experiences lead them to the belief that there is no 'me', but 'me' is 'infinity too.. are people being swindled out of their self-awareness, their 'me'-ness, because an ancient dogma inspires cultish affections for unverifiable beliefs? Because 'me' is the unique set of understandings, beliefs, Life-experiences, hopes and dreams, that operate this physical vehicle's interaction with Life.. there are any number of word-games used to create the illusion that 'me' doesn't exist, but it does.. 'me' exists because it is essential to the evolution of the human experience, it is the natural result of self-awareness..
It is interesting to engage people that claim there is no 'me' in rational discussions about their beliefs, to listen to the justifications.. it's not easy to find someone who claims to believe there is 'no me' that is willing to actually have an open and honest discussion about those beliefs.. Topology and i had such a discussion, it was productive and mostly pleasant until it was derailed by the irrational motives of others.. the thread, "A Rational Discussion": http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=272504&postcount=1 is a fair example of a willingness of people with an interest in finding a common understanding, rather than enforcing a specific belief.. it would most excellent if people were truly interested in what 'is', and shared a willingness to explore it, a willingness to let go of even their own beliefs..
Of interest to me, is the justification along the lines of Xan's comment to me:
Bob, I hear you saying you don't yet have the discernment to tell the difference between the world of appearances, of conditioned identity - made up by the ever-changing mind and what is true, of uncreated 'being' - of the essence, unboundaried and eternal.
No judgment, just an acknowledgement of where you're at.
A common theme among people that realize their beliefs are conceptual, and therefore unverifiable, is to judge, even though claiming not to judge, people who make statements that challenge the veracity of their beliefs, as not having some 'special quality' that they have, accounting for the judged person's inadequacy to agree with the person so judging.. worse, is the claim of "acknowledging where you're at", as if Xan has any capacity of understanding where anyone other than herself "is at", and.. in this case, i have repeatedly stated that i understand, and agree with, the infinite and eternal nature of a person's existence, i have even experienced the existence of 'me' and everyone's 'me' as an eternal existence.. where the Cosmic Memory is the repository of the accurate, vivid in every detail, 3D memory of everything that has ever happened in the Cosmos, ever.. and, whether uniquely manifested into human form or reintegrated into our Wholeness, consciously or energetically, we have the capacity to access the Cosmic memory.. and experience any memory from an original participant's perspective, or as any perspective we choose... because we ARE all of that, and so much more..
I understand that my understandings regarding the Cosmic Memory and its accessibility are conceptual and unverifiable, and.. i understand that verification is not validated by consensus agreements, so.. i explain my experiences with the Cosmic Memory infrequently, and hope that people will take my 'signature line' seriously.. find out for themselves, ask me if you're interested and i will point to information that might help you have 'your own' experiences that you can decide for yourself.. i won't tell you what is 'true', i will offer tools, like clarity, to help you find out for yourself, though..
'Me' is self-evident, a basic and fundamental understanding, hence the 'word' me.. 'no me', as you can see, requires explanations, and for the natural understanding of 'me' to be rejected in favor of an unbalanced 'no me' only perspective.. often, i hear explanations like, "it's all One thing, Oneness", 'and.. here's the stuff that's not included in Oneness'.. i know, right?
Be well..
Because 'me' is the unique set of understandings, beliefs, Life-experiences, hopes and dreams, that operate this physical vehicle's interaction with Life..
This 'me' that is a collection of things is a useful vehicle for interacting in the world, but it's not the "I" that this thread and spiritual awakening are about.
This one is indivisible and undefinable... whole and pre-existing... silent aware presence.
Just this.....
Xan
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 03:29 AM
Because 'me' is the unique set of understandings, beliefs, Life-experiences, hopes and dreams, that operate this physical vehicle's interaction with Life..
This 'me' that is a collection of things is a useful vehicle for interacting in this world, but it's not the "I" that this thread and spiritual awakening are about.
This one is indivisible and undefinable... whole and pre-existing... simply silent, present and aware.
Just this.....
XanThe whole reason there is a 'me', is that the "I" cannot exist without it.. if that were not so, if the "I" had no need of 'you/me/we', we wouldn't be having this discussion.. 'you/me/we' are not frivolous, we are 'real and essential'.. AND "indivisible and undefinable... whole and pre-existing.."..
Be well..
tone0728
02-11-2011, 03:34 AM
I agree with you Xan, through insight meditation and contemplative awareness, a person can come to the understanding that "I Am". It's a simple phrase, when fully understood, is deeply profound. I used to always say to myself "It's so simple!! The hardest things always are!". Great post!
The whole reason there is a 'me', is that the "I" cannot exist without it..
ahhh, I see the trouble, Bob. You have the cart before the horse.
The eternal "I" existed before birth in this world, before conditioning of the personal 'me', and continues after death.... and is here, now, continuously, behind the scenes until we notice it.
Xan
"It's so simple!! The hardest things always are!"
Yep... too simple for the mind...
Xan
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 05:05 AM
Greetings..
"It's so simple!! The hardest things always are!"
Yep... too simple for the mind...
Xan
And yet, the mind serves you so well, clever word-play and all.. so, in the following quote, notice your dependency on mind to cobble together words and phrases that add the appearance of validity to what you want others to believe.. that's what i don't get, the glaring inconsistencies, and the ability to dismiss them with dismissive remarks about someone who notices "the emperor's new clothes".. that, rather than actually have a real discussion
"too simple for the mind", but.. then post everything the mind thinks about Spirituality..
ahhh, I see the trouble, Bob. You have the cart before the horse.
The eternal "I" existed before birth in this world, before conditioning of the personal 'me', and continues after death.... and is here, now, continuously, behind the scenes until we notice it.
Xan
The "eternal "I", didn't exist any earlier than the first mind that found refuge in its 'meaning'.. here's where we will divert, as you will not let go of/suspend your beliefs long enough to listen to what i am sincerely trying to communicate, you assume you already know my "where [i'm] at", and that is inadequate by your standards..
The 'me' and the 'eternal "I", are experiences that have become 'words and meanings'.. as experiences, they are the same process, without hierarchy.. as words and meanings, though, each depends on the other for comparative meaning through a relationship based on 'experiences.. where we differ, is that you 'tell' people what you want them to believe, like starting a thread on 'Silence', then telling people what Silence is.. and, unless you want to build you spiritual cred with profound posts, i'm thinking most people know what Silence means.. aye, silence is a prerequisite for 'listening'..
Be well..
Tzu - why do you seek to tear down Xan so? You know you have siad and she has heard every argument and counter-argument in your post a hundred times.
I mean - wouldn't it be easier to just ask her for a date?
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 01:35 PM
Greetings..
Tzu - why do you seek to tear down Xan so? You know you have siad and she has heard every argument and counter-argument in your post a hundred times.
I mean - wouldn't it be easier to just ask her for a date?
I do not "seek to tear down Xan", you judge that which you do not understand.. i am impressed with Xan's tenacity and passion for her beliefs.. and, i illustrate a balancing perspective in a similar manner.. if i experience someone telling a group of people to 'spend all of your money now', i am obliged to suggest that they save some their money, just in case.. and, that's my position here, an alternative perspective.. mostly, i would be interested in direct discussions with those interested in examining their belief about 'no me' objectively.. rather than relying on the preconceived messages stored in the 'defend beliefs' section of the mind, or the second-hand words of other believers..
Be well..
...I do not "seek to tear down Xan", you judge that which you do not understand...
Such presumption!
Perhaps it is you that judges what you do not understand - but I don't seriously expect you to entertain that thought for a second. Seems to me "He shoots and I duck" is pretty clear, if one is listening for it, which you obviously would rather willfully ignore.
i am impressed with Xan's tenacity and passion for her beliefs.. and, i illustrate a balancing perspective in a similar manner...
'Balanced' in whose opinion - yours? I respectfully submit that you are biased in your own favor.
if i experience someone telling a group of people to 'spend all of your money now', i am obliged to suggest that they save some their money, just in case.. and, that's my position here, an alternative perspective...
Thanks for coming here to save me from the evil Xan! My hero! :D
mostly, i would be interested in direct discussions with those interested in examining their belief about 'no me' objectively.. rather than relying on the preconceived messages stored in the 'defend beliefs' section of the mind, or the second-hand words of other believers...
'Objectively' in whose opinion? Let me tell you something Mr. Zen - 'Objectivity' doesn't give a gnats behind what you or Xan think - end of discussion.
All I hear from you, post after post after post ad infinitum is 'don't spend your money'. Seriously. It is MONOTONOUS - as much of a form letter as your constant Greetings... Be well... Seriously - your posts can be such a constant grind, and whenever someone says anything you're like "What? I'm just asking questions... This is obviously beyond your understanding..." like some spring fresh innocent, which you're not.
Understand this Tzu - You poke and poke and poke, oblivious to how disruptive and annoying you can be. Let me give you a clue - after someone hasn't answered your 47th post demanding an answer to the same point and the same question - give it a rest. The 48th is going to be no different.
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 02:42 PM
Greetings..
Such presumption!
Exactly, so why do you presume my motives..
Perhaps it is you that judges what you do not understand - but I don't seriously expect you to entertain that thought for a second. Seems to me "He shoots and I duck" is pretty clear, if one is listening for it, which you obviously would rather ignore.
I understand Xan's perspective, and agree with it mostly.. i am adding to it, including that which is equally experiencable and real..
'Balanced' in whose opinion - yours? I respectfully submit that you are biased in your own favor.
Yes, i am biased in my own favor.. seeking discussion, not this deflection by accusation..
Thanks for coming here to save me from the evil Xan! My hero! :D
Nice, Humm.. any chance for adult discussion?
'Objectively' in whose opinion? Let me tell you something Mr. Zen - 'Objectivity' doesn't give a gnats behind what you or Xan think - end of discussion.
Yet, you keep at it.. where is your 'objectivity'?
All I hear from you, post after post after post ad infinitum is 'don't spend your money'. Seriously. It is MONOTONOUS - as much of a form letter as your constant Greetings... Be well... Seriously - your posts can be such a constant grind, and whenever someone says anything you're like "What? I'm just asking questions... This is obviously beyond your understanding..." like some spring fresh innocent, which you're not.
"All [you] hear", is the echo of your own beliefs, and another opportunity to demonstrate your ability, or lack thereof, to have a rational discussion.. It's 'monotonous' because of posts like this one from you, no willingness to discuss.. if we were having a discussion rather than you being all 'get off my playground' sort of stuff, it wouldn't be monotonous.. but, you would rather "tell" me this and "tell" me that.. it's your way or no way..
Understand this Tzu - You poke and poke and poke, oblivious to how disruptive and annoying you can be. Let me give you a clue - after someone hasn't answered your 47th post demanding an answer to the same point and the same question - give it a rest. The 48th is going to be no different.
Nice, Humm.. and, after the umpteenth time of reciting the approved mantra, no deviation will be tolerated, eh? yes, i am asking, sincerely.. yes, i am persistent, because i really want to explore what all of this 'is', rather than recite the approved mantras and chase away anyone that might change the status quo..
Think about the bolded portions, Humm.. 'who ARE 'You'? Why do you assume to dictate to others your intentions? why do fear and reject rational discussion? there's nothing of substance in your post, Humm, just mean-spirited accusations..
Be well..
...Think about the bolded portions, Humm.. 'who ARE 'You'?...
Another completely in every way typical Tzu post - intended to tell me all about me.
Tzu, people don't need you to tell them what's what. If you're going to continue posting at this forum I suggest you crack open that ego of yours and make room for others to have opinions - otherwise, you're just wasting everybodies time - mostly yours.
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 03:03 PM
Greetings..
Another completely in every way typical Tzu post - intended to tell me all about me.
Tzu, people don't need you to tell them what's what. If you're going to continue posting at this forum I suggest you crack open that ego of yours and make room for others to have opinions - otherwise, you're just wasting everybodies time - mostly yours.
Is there any chance that you can see that the accusations you are putting to me, is you telling me "what's what"? do you see yourself 'suggesting' to me how to conduct myself on this forum.. have you become the 'Tzu police'? again, i suggest discussing these issues, as opposed telling me to go away, in the very unspiritual way you do..
Be well..
...Is there any chance that you can see that the accusations you are putting to me, is you telling me "what's what"? do you see yourself 'suggesting' to me how to conduct myself on this forum.. have you become the 'Tzu police'? again, i suggest discussing these issues, as opposed telling me to go away, in the very unspiritual way you do...
You see, that's all you see is what you see Tzu.
"He shoots and I duck" isn't the only criticism you've had on this board Tzu, or the only one you have IGNORED. The difference is I listen.
And we are discussing - but it doesn't seem to your liking, and you have lots to say about that!
Put yourself in other people's shoes once in a while, instead of constantly trying to shoehorn them into yours.
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 03:24 PM
Greetings..
You see, that's all you see is what you see Tzu.
"He shoots and I duck" isn't the only criticism you've had on this board Tzu, or the only one you have IGNORED. The difference is I listen.
And we are discussing - but it doesn't seem to your liking, and you have lots to say about that!
Put yourself in other people's shoes once in a while, instead of constantly trying to shoehorn them into yours.
Cool, we're discussing.. you say, "You see, that's all you see is what you see Tzu", do you see more than "what you see", Humm?
Be well..
Greetings..
Cool, we're discussing.. you say, "You see, that's all you see is what you see Tzu", do you see more than "what you see", Humm?
Be well..
*Facepalm*
Let's try this another way...
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!
^the sound of my previous post where I say "I listen" going right over Tzu's head^
BlueSky
02-11-2011, 03:46 PM
I hear you Humm and I support what you are saying and not out of spite or vengence. I'm better than that. It simply is the truth and it's not personal.
It has to stop.
Unfotunately you may not get anywhere nor any help so at the very least I give you my support in case you are feeling like you are standing alone right now.
Peace and blessings,
James
You are a very generous soul WS.
I appreciate your support.
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 04:05 PM
Greetings..
*Facepalm*
Let's try this another way...
WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOSH!!!!
^the sound of my previous post where I say "I listen" going right over Tzu's head^
What did i miss? you said we were having a discussion, right.. is this your preferred method of discussion?
Be well..
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 04:06 PM
Greetings..
I hear you Humm and I support what you are saying and not out of spite or vengence. I'm better than that. It simply is the truth and it's not personal.
It has to stop.
Unfotunately you may not get anywhere nor any help so at the very least I give you my support in case you are feeling like you are standing alone right now.
Peace and blessings,
James
Hi James: I appreciate your support, too..
Be well..
BlueSky
02-11-2011, 04:11 PM
Greetings..
Hi James: I appreciate your support, too..
Be well..
You have no idea how much you do have my love and concern Tzu. Lack of support for your behavior is not an attack on you personally.
I hope you can see that.
What did i miss? you said we were having a discussion, right.. is this your preferred method of discussion?
What if it is? Does it matter if you can't hear a word I say in any case?
...you judge that which you do not understand...
You know, you apparently really do believe whoever disagrees with you just fell off the turnip truck.
I see you trying to steer discussion into your preferred mode and form, but I see what your rationalizations do for you, and I respectfully decline.
...and that's me accepting discussion on your terms, and answering in kind.
Now, any time you'd like to discuss like a person to another person, let me know, otherwise, I have made my point and am satisfied with that, whether or not you claim to 'get it' - for now.
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 04:26 PM
Greetings..
You have no idea how much you do have my love and concern Tzu. Lack of support for your behavior is not an attack on you personally.
I hope you can see that.
I have always seen that, James.. i wish you understood the 'behavior' you speak of is equally well-intended..
Be well..
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 04:28 PM
Greetings..
Now, any time you'd like to discuss like a person to another person, let me know,
I'm ready: you say, "You see, that's all you see is what you see Tzu", do you see more than "what you see", Humm?
Be well..
...I'm ready: you say, "You see, that's all you see is what you see Tzu", do you see more than "what you see", Humm?...
Oh, that's right - this is the part in discussion with Tzu where he asks a question, I answer it TWICE, but he is not satisfied so then starts the cycle of demand and demur, demand and demur, demand and demur...
Oy vey. :rolleyes:
BlueSky
02-11-2011, 04:46 PM
Greetings..
I have always seen that, James.. i wish you understood the 'behavior' you speak of is equally well-intended..
Be well..
No I don't see that although I am open to that being the case. I imagine if we had these discussions face to face, it would become more clear.
What I do see is a man whose well intentions for those he feels are watching and listening with young eager minds to these discussions to be more important somehow than the opponent he attempts to trample and belittle before them.
I look at the trees fruit when discerning behavior and your fruit represented by your words is hurtful and equivalent to bullying.
No well intentions can change that fact.
It is not even a question with me of what you are saying at all. It is how you say it which consists of constantly telling people why they say what THEY say.
I could tell you that I have seen with my own eyes and understanding that death is an illusion and if you disagree, you will tell me that I am only seeing what I want to see.
Attempts to have real discussions have been attempted many times. You have caused them to fail by reacting in this manner.
You require proof of others where they differ from you. On every level that is just rediculous IMO and makes no sense. In fact as I am writing that, I can see you formulating a response as to why it should make sense to me that you do that........lol
I wish you all the best but I will not take such behavior toward me so if it remains we will contiue to lock horns.
Take care.........James
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 05:18 PM
Greetings..
Oh, that's right - this is the part in discussion with Tzu where he asks a question, I answer it TWICE, but he is not satisfied so then starts the cycle of demand and demur, demand and demur, demand and demur...
Oy vey. :rolleyes:
I'm sorry you see it that way, Humm.. if have missed the answer to the question, "do you see more than "what you see", Humm?", please indicate where i missed it..
Be well..
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 05:21 PM
Greetings..
No I don't see that although I am open to that being the case. I imagine if we had these discussions face to face, it would become more clear.
What I do see is a man whose well intentions for those he feels are watching and listening with young eager minds to these discussions to be more important somehow than the opponent he attempts to trample and belittle before them.
I look at the trees fruit when discerning behavior and your fruit represented by your words is hurtful and equivalent to bullying.
No well intentions can change that fact.
It is not even a question with me of what you are saying at all. It is how you say it which consists of constantly telling people why they say what THEY say.
I could tell you that I have seen with my own eyes and understanding that death is an illusion and if you disagree, you will tell me that I am only seeing what I want to see.
Attempts to have real discussions have been attempted many times. You have caused them to fail by reacting in this manner.
You require proof of others where they differ from you. On every level that is just rediculous IMO and makes no sense. In fact as I am writing that, I can see you formulating a response as to why it should make sense to me that you do that........lol
I wish you all the best but I will not take such behavior toward me so if it remains we will contiue to lock horns.
Take care.........James
I do not understand how to communicate with you.
Be well..
...I'm sorry you see it that way, Humm.. if have missed the answer to the question, "do you see more than "what you see", Humm?", please indicate where i missed it...
Wow Tzu - are you really that dense???
Instead of recognizing that you have slipped back into the repetitive demanding pattern I originally called you on, then thanking me and moving on, you double down - asking me again!!
Posts 198 and 200 Tzu - read them very slooooooowly.
Of course if you didn't like it the first time (or the second) why would you like it any better a third time???
Let it go Tzu. Just walk away - while you still can.
TzuJanLi
02-11-2011, 05:34 PM
Greetings..
Wow Tzu - are you really that dense???
Instead of recognizing that you have slipped back into the repetitive demanding pattern I originally called you on, then thanking me and moving on, you double down - asking me again!!
Posts 198 and 200 Tzu - read them very slooooooowly.
Of course if you didn't like it the first time (or the second) why would you like it any better a third time???
Let it go Tzu. Just walk away - while you still can.
Good, you never address the issue, Humm.. you say one thing, "Now, any time you'd like to discuss like a person to another person, let me know,".. then, you do this.. so, if you will kindly abstain from replying to me or about me, i will do the same, okay?
Be well..
BlueSky
02-11-2011, 05:43 PM
Greetings..
I do not understand how to communicate with you.
Be well..
I can't tell you how to act Tzu. Everything that has been pointed out to you as unacceptable is ok in your eyes and you just turn it around back at who is saying it anyways.
It is a lost cause. You called me a phoney yesterday. A man trying to appear to be humble. You say you don't know how to respond........seriously dude.......
Tell you what, since I am so good at playing make believe, I'll respond to my post above, for you "OK Jim, I'll try and watch how I respond since so many see it as an insult" " "I appreciate the talk.......be well"
Much better............I will sleep like a baby tonight.........
This is about "What I Am".
This is an impossible question to answer.
But using words and thoughts- what is the closest answer you can give?
And everyone can have their own answer.
No right or wrong about it.
Why not the see the similarities in the answers instead of the differences?
Beauty is in everyone here. It's easy to see this.
BlueSky
02-11-2011, 05:53 PM
This is about "What I Am".
This is an impossible question to answer.
But using words and thoughts- what is the closest answer you can give?
And everyone can have their own answer.
No right or wrong about it.
Why not the see the similarities in the answers instead of the differences?
Beauty is in everyone here. It's easy to see this.
May I ask.........Who are you addressing this to?
It's like the teacher punishing the whole class for the actions of one or two...lol
Silver
02-11-2011, 05:59 PM
I'm backtracking here on this thread, at page 20 or something, and it's always the same with certain people, and natch, I have my suspicions about some, RofL. Who loves ya! Buuuut, your messin' with my doily arrangement ~ again! Oh Amethyst! Helllllp! (Maybe some didn't have their RDA of pink yet?)
BlueSky
02-11-2011, 06:02 PM
I'm backtracking here on this thread, at page 20 or something, and it's always the same with certain people, and natch, I have my suspicions about some, RofL. Who loves ya! Buuuut, your messin' with my doily arrangement ~ again! Oh Amethyst! Helllllp! (Maybe some didn't have their RDA of pink yet?)
I'm only asking cuz there seems to be a reluctancy for some to just come out and say it..................kinda like what you just did..........lol
Kaere
02-11-2011, 06:24 PM
Stop it. Seriously. If you don't get along with someone, put them on ignore. Easy enough.
Another thread having to be closed.
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