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athribiristan
11-04-2011, 05:32 AM
So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.

I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.

Shim
11-04-2011, 05:38 AM
So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.

I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.

Sounds like you have pretty much answered your own question. Ever notice how the Apostle Paul had referred to himself as a slave of Jesus Christ? The word he used to describe himself is of someone who has undisputed possession of a person or a thing. In the most absolute sense it means master or owner. Paul thought of himself as the slave of Jesus Christ, his Master and his Lord. Jesus had loved him and given himself for him, and therefore Paul was sure that he belonged no longer to himself but entirely to Jesus.

nightowl
11-04-2011, 05:38 AM
Interesting, can I ask what your definition of serving God is? :smile:

Mountain-Goat
11-04-2011, 05:54 AM
So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.

I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.
How do I balance the two seemingly conflicting concepts? Bin them both.
I have taken both concepts out of my observations and equations of life for this part of my journey.
This has allowed me to explore areas that these concepts infered were non existent, no go areas or impossibilities.
Afterall athribiristan, they are just concepts.
It's wonderous what one is capable of seeing without concepts clouding one's view.

Shim
11-04-2011, 06:01 AM
How do I balance the two seemingly conflicting concepts? Bin them both.
I have taken both concepts out of my observations and equations of life for this part of my journey.
This has allowed me to explore areas that these concepts infered were non existent, no go areas or impossibilities.
Afterall athribiristan, they are just concepts.
It's wonderous what one is capable of seeing without concepts clouding one's view.


Not meaning to answer for athribiristan, however, this reminded me of when Jesus Christ called his disciples, and having not said to them: I have a philosophy which I would like you to examine, or I have an ethical system which I would like you to consider, or I offer a statement of belief which I would like you to discuss. He said: Follow me.

Enjoy

Ciqala
11-04-2011, 06:13 AM
The way i view it, is free will and being of service are not conflicting embodiments at all, they are necessary components of a balance, for example, someone who works for an 8 hour shift, it would be healthy to have time off to refuel and relax. Free will, can be seen as many things, it can be just our forgetfulness to the creator which was part of the bigger plan as we reshape and grow into remembrance, our ability and enjoyment to live in human bodies, what some people say as thoughts, attachments being a horrendous thing, but those things are necessary parts of growth of the spirt, thus we are on earth to grow, to have free will, to make choices, to learn from things. But there is also destiny, what we are capable of as whole, who we are truly, and what we are meant to complete and assist as a whole.

I would say in my experience, being of service has become a lot more important to me than my own selfish course of action, i write this because, when left to my own advances, my own life controlled within my hands, my free will becomes an egotistical control issue whereas i believe i can control everything in my life, and my control over everything only breaks apart my life and makes me ill, and being of service is a lot more than service, it is following a path of higher good, relinquishing our pathetic attempts at control and allowing the divine to have control which is what creates miracles and amazing possibilities and healing, personally keeps me healthy. Connection to everything as one.

In standard terms, helping people, even if just through the community is a simple way of being of service, and even that, is so healing. When you help someone else, it really helps you.

Being of service is a lot more than just being an employee to some annoying business, it is aspects of us having divine love pouring through us as a gateway, us knowing our true destinies, our true paths, and following our hearts and the bigger plan. The ways we serve, are not always the same as everyone else. One person's definition of serving, is going to be entirely different, because we all have different life paths.

If you view service, as a job, you could change your perspective, and if not, then in all, we deserve to have breaks from said job, and that is balance. If your service is to be a healer, you cannot pour your heart out to people, keep giving, giving, healing and healing, and get nothing back in return, if you do not take care of yourself, and take some time off to refuel, and exercise your free will as a balance.

Free will is an important aspect of life, but put in the wrong hands of someone who demolishes control, free will is exercised in an addicting and detrimental way which can hurt us. Gaining a connection to the divine, is service, therefore we are pulled away from our control issues and our power trips, and can access true divine love and power.
And perhaps upon experiencing that beautiful connection, we learn that we would rather our free will be for the highest good because it is so beautiful.

themaster
11-04-2011, 06:23 AM
So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.I have some balance for you..

What if serving god?? Is serving yourself?

Something to think about.. :smile: I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.Why is it a lesser choice?

Why do you make it one..?

It's like you’re saying.. I see myself in god.. the next second you say.. "it's wrong/bad to see myself in god" "obviously I'm being a ego!"

Double dichotomy.. or double standard..

Humans are full of double standards..

"Gays are wrong" says congressman Mark Foley.. then he's caught sexually harassing male pages.. hmm.. odd.. ehh?

A person say to me "Don't smoke it's bad for you!" and "hang on a second.. I need a cigarette break"

Double standards..

Just be god, just be divine.. just know his will is your will.. CAUSE you are god.. you are a aspect of the divine..

Or play the double standard..

Man, I wish I was worthy of god's love.. I wish I could serve him.. but I'd rather be a LESSER to god.. I'd rather worship him as a IDOL then be EQUAL to god..

Some more things to think about.. :rolleyes: :hug3:

Mountain-Goat
11-04-2011, 06:28 AM
Not meaning to answer for athribiristan, however, this reminded me of when Jesus Christ called his disciples, and having not said to them: I have a philosophy which I would like you to examine, or I have an ethical system which I would like you to consider, or I offer a statement of belief which I would like you to discuss. He said: Follow me.

You can't answer for anyone but yourself Shim.
I followed Jesus for 20 years. It was a most remarkable time.
His influence in my life is permanent.
We may have gone our separate ways, but we are still deeply connected.

athribiristan
11-04-2011, 01:11 PM
Interesting, can I ask what your definition of serving God is? :smile:

Well, he asks me to do stuff and I do it. Pretty much the same as any other job. I'm really just curious what other people philosophies are on the matter. In my studies, I have reconciled most of the great dichotomies that I have come across, but this one is still elusive. I'm sure there is a solution that accomodates BOTH realities, I was hoping someone might provide the spark that helps me find it.

athribiristan
11-04-2011, 01:27 PM
How do I balance the two seemingly conflicting concepts? Bin them both.
I have taken both concepts out of my observations and equations of life for this part of my journey.
This has allowed me to explore areas that these concepts infered were non existent, no go areas or impossibilities.
Afterall athribiristan, they are just concepts.
It's wonderous what one is capable of seeing without concepts clouding one's view.

You can't bin Free Will. Doing so only proves that you have Free Will. I won't argue with the other half, you can certainly bin service to God.

I would be interested to know what other areas these concepts were preventing you from exploring, as it looks like I may be headed that direction soon. Thanks for your response.

athribiristan
11-04-2011, 01:33 PM
I have some balance for you..

What if serving god?? Is serving yourself?

Something to think about.. :smile: Why is it a lesser choice?

Not a lesser choice. Less of a choice

Why do you make it one..?

Well its like saying to your child 'you're an adult now, go into the world and do as you please....but only if I agree with it.

It's like you’re saying.. I see myself in god.. the next second you say.. "it's wrong/bad to see myself in god" "obviously I'm being a ego!"

Absolutely not! I know that we are God. I also know that we came here (to the physical universe) to experience a separation from our Godhood.

Double dichotomy.. or double standard..

Humans are full of double standards..

"Gays are wrong" says congressman Mark Foley.. then he's caught sexually harassing male pages.. hmm.. odd.. ehh?

A person say to me "Don't smoke it's bad for you!" and "hang on a second.. I need a cigarette break"

Double standards..

Just be god, just be divine.. just know his will is your will.. CAUSE you are god.. you are a aspect of the divine..

Or play the double standard..

Man, I wish I was worthy of god's love.. I wish I could serve him.. but I'd rather be a LESSER to god.. I'd rather worship him as a IDOL then be EQUAL to god..

So if we are God and you are not worthy of God's Love.....why such a hard time Loving yourself?

Some more things to think about.. :rolleyes: :hug3:


Well you definitely gave me plenty to think about....thanks for your reply.

sound
11-04-2011, 02:20 PM
Hi athribiristan

I am of the feeling that service is for the greater good, not so much the greater 'God' ... I realize that requires judgment in one sense. Either way, service for me is about making a contribution which will enhance the experience of self and others ... of course that is not consciously on my mind throughout my entire 'service' however there is an underlying sense of that which I admit i rely on when i have had a 'gutful' and start to become disillusioned with my own efforts :D :hug3:


So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.

I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.

Internal Queries
11-04-2011, 02:28 PM
**shrug** i was raised strict Catholic. i was conditioned to self denial, self debasement and "service to God" (whatever that means). my intellect freed me from self loathing and overt groveling but i still struggle for self esteem.

ShamanWoman
11-04-2011, 02:40 PM
I believe we are all connected...to each other, to the earth, to God. Therefore, every time you do something to make yourself happy, every time you smile at a stranger, every time you appreciate the sun shining you are serving God. Every tiny thing you do that does not harm another serves God. If you feel obligated to do things for someone else but you really do not want to, you are not serving God because you are doing yourself a disservice, and Jesus instructs you to love your neighbor *as yourself*, not more than yourself. Serving out of guilt or obligation is a form of listening to your ego, not listening to your heart where God resides.

BlueSky
11-04-2011, 02:54 PM
So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.

I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.

I hear ya loud and clear but maybe the key is to just let all that go of finding an answer and just live your life.
What you are doing is more important than whose will it is IMO.
James

yinepu
11-04-2011, 03:36 PM
So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.

I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.



Ok so if god gave us the gift of free will, then would we not be serving god by using our free will ?

yinepu
11-04-2011, 03:45 PM
by not making our own choices and listening to others or listening to one particular religion is not using our free will , not if you were born into it, or any other cultural practice that you dont enjoy.


I think if you want to place merit on this statement of free will and service , and dissect it, then really free will is the action of doing something you want to do that will lead you to experience something....Now if you just serve someone are you experiencing anything other than service , in which case, thats whats wrong with religion, it does not allow you to grow , but to stay in a pattern of thinking that contradicts itself over and over , confusing, fear and control.


To use the gift of free will , just by making our own decisions wether it turns us into a pitfall or not is serving your god, he gave you a gift , dont look a gift horse in the mouth !!

Use your free will and be safe in the knowledge you will be serving your god.

Mathew James
11-04-2011, 04:36 PM
Use your free will and be safe in the knowledge you will be serving (( remembering )) your god.

This is so true. The only way to obtain knowledge of the the Creator is to experience our free will. First we need to BE true to ourself and then Become that truth. It is all about being and becoming our true spirit. The paths and spirits that guide us, is our experience ever before us. It is a journey and we are all traveling together.

As far as all of the religious concepts out there, they have all come from following false teachers, who in most cases have never spent any time in the WORD of GOD....The only thing GOD ever wanted us to do...is to remember HIM, that is IT...all those religious rituals are nothing but filthy rags to GOD!!!

We do not try to serve GOD...we just have to remember that HE is there.

nightowl
11-04-2011, 05:27 PM
Well, he asks me to do stuff and I do it. Pretty much the same as any other job. I'm really just curious what other people philosophies are on the matter. In my studies, I have reconciled most of the great dichotomies that I have come across, but this one is still elusive. I'm sure there is a solution that accomodates BOTH realities, I was hoping someone might provide the spark that helps me find it.

I can understand that... It is true that service to God can take on many different forms. I think the simplest form for me is I am serving God when I follow God's leading and in serving other. It is just part of my life. I don't see it as a requirement or chore. It would seem that recognizing that the Spirit of God is in ever person and I should respond to them as I would expect them to respond to me. As if I am doing it onto God...:hug3:

Enya
11-04-2011, 06:36 PM
Being of service is a lot more than just being an employee to some annoying business, it is aspects of us having divine love pouring through us as a gateway, us knowing our true destinies, our true paths, and following our hearts and the bigger plan.
(snip)
And perhaps upon experiencing that beautiful connection, we learn that we would rather our free will be for the highest good because it is so beautiful.

Love these words... best definition of service I've yet seen.
I am reminded of the prayer of St Frances of Assisi - 'make me an instrument of Your peace...'

Mountain-Goat
12-04-2011, 05:46 AM
You can't bin Free Will. Doing so only proves that you have Free Will. I won't argue with the other half, you can certainly bin service to God.
~smiles~ Oh but I have binned Free Will, athribiristan.
I don't have Free Will, I just have plain old ordinary but infinitely powerful, Will.
I would be interested to know what other areas these concepts were preventing you from exploring, as it looks like I may be headed that direction soon. Thanks for your response.
Well, the concepts aren't the problem are they.
It's when one chooses to classify a concept as truth is when one's vision becomes clouded/restricted/biased.
A concept is just a theory, a defined thought that one uses to evaluate reality.
If one believes a theory is a fact, one will not explore other paths if those paths contradict the theory that has a rigid truth label atached to it.

You can't know what the concept is preventing you from exploring while you are attached to it, attached by labeling it truth.
You unlock it, remove the 'truth' label from it, then you go exploring and then you will know what it has hindered you from.

And what it hindered me from may not be the same for you.
Each person has a unique journey.

I journeyed on the christian path for 20 years.
It was a wonderful journey.
I left that path a few years ago and began exploring reality without a belief in god.
In doing so, my understanding of god, the spirit realm and many other things has expanded.

I look at it this way.
If god is anything like people say he/she/it is, he/she/it won't be offended in which paths I choose to explore to seek the "meaning to life".
If god is the source, all genuine exploration will lead to god because everything is god.

I discovered after leaving a specific path, there was more to reality than that path showed.
Paths are not the truth, they simply are directions one takes to find the truth.
Truths can be found on paths, but notice how a truth can only be found by a person.
If there is no person, there is no truth.
So where does the truth originate from? The person.
Yet Truth is simply a label a person attaches to some information.

Bin the concepts, bin the labels and simply explore.
Or to be more precise, use concepts and labels to navigate and explore everything,
but while you're looking, bin the concepts and labels.

Shim
12-04-2011, 05:50 AM
I journeyed on the christian path for 20 years.
It was a wonderful journey.
I left that path a few years ago and began exploring reality without a belief in god.
In doing so, my understanding of god, the spirit realm and many other things has expanded.


So to have I in the past Alternate Carpark, and for the same reasons that atheist score higher in an IQ. test within a secular frame work. I went back to the path however.... hope you find what you are seeking.

Mountain-Goat
12-04-2011, 06:01 AM
So to have I in the past Alternate Carpark, and for the same reasons that atheist score higher in an IQ. test within a secular frame work. I went back to the path however.... hope you find what you are seeking.
Wouldn't have a clue as to why you're mentioning atheists or IQ tests.

I'm not looking for anything specific.
I wanted to know who I was, so I went looking, I found myself and I've been exploring ever since.
This journey took me through christianity and now it's taking me through other paths.
I think it's quite logical for me to find and totally understand myself before going off looking for other things and wanting to understand them.

psychoslice
12-04-2011, 06:10 AM
Jesus only wanted those who needed to follow him to follow, he also said take up your bed and walk, I've taken up my bed long ago, I've even burnt it lol.

Mountain-Goat
12-04-2011, 06:24 AM
Jesus only wanted those who needed to follow him to follow, he also said take up your bed and walk, I've taken up my bed long ago, I've even burnt it lol.
I followed him a different way.
I followed him to the cross and crucified my life in order to gain it.
I think they now call this rebirth.
I liken it to the transformation a caterpiller goes through to become a butterfly.

yinepu
12-04-2011, 06:29 AM
This is so true. The only way to obtain knowledge of the the Creator is to experience our free will. First we need to BE true to ourself and then Become that truth. It is all about being and becoming our true spirit. The paths and spirits that guide us, is our experience ever before us. It is a journey and we are all traveling together.

.


Nicely said james im with you !

psychoslice
12-04-2011, 06:32 AM
I followed him a different way.
I followed him to the cross and crucified my life in order to gain it.
I think they now call this rebirth.
I liken it to the transformation a caterpiller goes through to become a butterfly.
Yea that sounds really nice actually, the butterfly analogy that is, i would say that is how I have grown also, I suppose that's my way of saying that I burnt my bed, the bed being all the belief systems I cam to know, they were beautiful systems but they were also great stepping stones, so here we both are talking to each other, I think that's really cool.

Mountain-Goat
12-04-2011, 06:43 AM
I actually would not have interpreted the "taking up the bed" as you have defined it psychoslice as I was thinking along a completely different path.
Thankyou for sharing, and yes, I see the semblance now.
How cool is that !.

Same here, my walk through christianity was a most beautiful time.
And through the refining fire, what was gold was purified and what was chaff was burnt and left by the wayside.
Transformation, healing, alchemy, there's so many names to it.

Shim
12-04-2011, 07:42 AM
I actually would not have interpreted the "taking up the bed" as you have defined it psychoslice as I was thinking along a completely different path.
Thankyou for sharing, and yes, I see the semblance now.
How cool is that !.

Same here, my walk through christianity was a most beautiful time.
And through the refining fire, what was gold was purified and what was chaff was burnt and left by the wayside.
Transformation, healing, alchemy, there's so many names to it.

Reminds me of a poem,,,

He sat by a fire of seven-fold heat,
As He watched by the precious ore,
And closer He bent with a searching gaze
As He heated it more and more.

He knew He had ore that could stand the test,
And He wanted the finest gold
To mould as a crown for the King to wear,
Set with gems with a price untold.

So He laid our gold in the burning fire,
Tho' we fain would have said Him 'Nay,'
And He watched the dross that we had not seen,
And it melted and passed away.

And the gold grew brighter and yet more bright,
But our eyes were so dim with tears,
We saw but the fire--not the Master's hand,
And questioned with anxious fears.

Yet our gold shone out with a richer glow,
As it mirrored a Form above,
That bent o'er the fire, tho' unseen by us,
With a look of ineffable love.

Can we think that it pleases His loving heart
To cause us a moment's pain?
Ah, no! but He saw through the present cross
The bliss of eternal gain.

So He waited there with a watchful eye,
With a love that is strong and sure,
And His gold did not suffer a bit more heat,
Than was needed to make it pure.

Ivy
12-04-2011, 08:26 AM
So God gave us free will. My thought is that one does not scoff at a gift from God; its not like the sweater from grandma that gets put in the closet and never sees the light of day. So bust out your free will and put yourself to work accomplishing something. But we also hear, from various sources that we should serve God, or whomever. I'm curious to know how other people balance these two seemingly conflicting concepts.

I know the easy answer is that we exercise our free will and CHOOSE to serve, but that really lacks teeth. My practice has been to see that my will and God's will be more or less the same, but that is starting to feel like less and less of a choice. Thanks all for your insights and wisdom.

If you touch the surface of water, a ripple will begin going outwards....it may join with other ripples along the way or it may run to flat, but when it touches something, it will bounce back towards its source again. To act with free will is to touch the surface of the water...to act with service is to touch the surface of the water, and to accept what comes back as your next lesson #:-)

Mountain-Goat
13-04-2011, 05:06 AM
so I can follow the poem Shim...
Who is 'He'?
Who is 'the King'?


Reminds me of a poem,,,

He sat by a fire of seven-fold heat,
As He watched by the precious ore,
And closer He bent with a searching gaze
As He heated it more and more.

He knew He had ore that could stand the test,
And He wanted the finest gold
To mould as a crown for the King to wear,
Set with gems with a price untold.

So He laid our gold in the burning fire,
Tho' we fain would have said Him 'Nay,'
And He watched the dross that we had not seen,
And it melted and passed away.

And the gold grew brighter and yet more bright,
But our eyes were so dim with tears,
We saw but the fire--not the Master's hand,
And questioned with anxious fears.

Yet our gold shone out with a richer glow,
As it mirrored a Form above,
That bent o'er the fire, tho' unseen by us,
With a look of ineffable love.

Can we think that it pleases His loving heart
To cause us a moment's pain?
Ah, no! but He saw through the present cross
The bliss of eternal gain.

So He waited there with a watchful eye,
With a love that is strong and sure,
And His gold did not suffer a bit more heat,
Than was needed to make it pure.

ROM
13-04-2011, 05:13 AM
You are looking at this from an earthly perspective. People who live according to God aren't slaves, they joyfully adapt themselves and live in service with His Will. It should be a privilege and not an obligation, otherwise it's not genuine. God wants us to be happy and come to him out of our own will, not from fear or whatnot.

Shim
13-04-2011, 05:19 AM
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