Do you think this could be true, Jesus recommending us to abstain from meat?

[Lightspirit]

I was reading in another thread someone posted about the gospel of Peace that was found in the Vatican and read some of it and saw in it stuff about not eating meat.

http://www.essene.com/GospelOfPeace/peace4.html

"First shall the Son of Man seek peace with his own body; for his body is as a mountain pond that reflects the sun when it is still and clear; but when it is full of mud and stones, it reflects nothing. First must Satan be cast out of the body, that the angels of God may enter again and dweh therein. Truly, no peace can reign in the body unless it is as a temple of the Holy Law. Therefore, when he who suffers with pains and grievous plagues asks for your help, tell him to renew himself with fasting and with prayer. Tell him to invoke the angel of sun, the angel of water, and the angel of air, that they may enter his body and cast out of it the power of Satan. Show him the baptism within, and the baptism without. Tell him always to eat of the table of our Earthly Mother, spread with her gifts: the fruits of the trees, the grasses of the fields, the milk of beasts good for eating, and the honey of bees. He shall not invoke the power of Satan by eating the flesh of bea sts, for he who kills, kills his brother, and whoso eats the flesh of slain beasts, eats the body of death. Tell him to prepare his food with the fire of life, not the fire of death, for the living angels of the living God serve only living men.

[lucky]

Yes indeed. A person of Jesus Christ stature and high consciousness who treasures even a lost lamb to hold gently in his hand, would not have called the foul blood and flesh of the same animal in the dinner plate a delicacy.

[Lovely]

Possibly...
Plus the bible said "Thou shall not kill"
It didn't say
"Thou shall not *kill
*kill humans that is."

Here's some websites about that..
http://www.jesusveg.com/
http://www.jewishveg.com/

And this is an informative video about it and the "jesus gave them fish" thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv3uU2YY6pM

"The Greek word for "fish weed" (a dried seaweed) has been mistranslated in stories as "fish".
Furthermore, the Bible was altered at The Council of Nicea."

[Chrysaetos]

Jesus lived in an arid Israel, which was very different from today's..

He probably ate some meat whenever he could get it, as grains were the staple diet and that seems rather poor to sustain a traveller.
We know the fish story.. and yes it could very well not be literal, but the fact that it is mentioned (and not 2 apples) says enough.. it means it was acceptable to eat fish.

[psychoslice]

Who really cares what Jesus ate, its what you want to eat that matters, it should be your choice, chosen through your own inner spiritual development, we have to stop this wanting to be like some so called god-man of the distance past, its the only way we can ever grow and mature spiritually.

[lucky]

Who really cares what Jesus ate, its what you want to eat that matters, it should be your choice, chosen through your own inner spiritual development, we have to stop this wanting to be like some so called god-man of the distance past, its the only way we can ever grow and mature spiritually.

Bravo.:angel8:

[ROM]

Animals kill animals and so forth. Part of the cycle of life, I guess.

[Time]

Funny, concidering genesis tells us to eat EVERYTHING ( with respect)

Yet another contradiction!

[mattie]

Just because someone claimed these were Jesus’ words doesn’t mean they were.

In his time & for 100s of years afterwards there were competing Christian sects vying for control. Primacy was important, very contested & they all, no doubt, produced documents to legitimize their particular group & convince the public to follow them. Serious Christian biblical scholars have determined that many things attributed to Jesus in religious documents including the Bible weren’t his words.

I would use the utmost discernment w/ any document that contained these ‘Satan’ references. That we are told eating meat will ‘invoke the power of Satan’ is utterly absurd in my opinion. Does the bear summon Satan when it snags a fish?

Do the angels serve the ‘living God’ or ‘living men?’ If they ‘serve’ ‘living men’ does this cut God out of the loop? One usually need not look deeply to see glaring contradictions in this type of document.

The real message here is FEAR SATAN.

‘First must Satan be cast out of the body’
‘cast out of it the power of Satan’
“He shall not invoke the power of Satan by’

These references are intended to convince us that we are inherently harboring Satan & should be fearful of this powerful demon. This is one of the many tactics used to insure loyalty to the political-religious bureaucracy. Going to hell was another.

[Lightspirit]

I realized much later after I posted this and researched more that the Essene gospels of peace where I got that from are fairly dodgey. I think they are more of a 20th century work than a legit one. It appears the original translated documents seem to have disappeared. Who knows the catholics could have hid them..or they never existed.

I originally posted this without knowledge of its authenticity as a reliable document. I was wondering if anyone knew about it. I only saw it for the first time when I posted it.
From my vegetarian point of view I loved it. it sounded good to me... a couple of parts still do.
I wish it was fully legit.

[Time]

genesis 9:3 ( ESV)

Every moving thing that lives shall be food for you. And as I gave you the green plants, I give you everything

[Lightspirit]

make sure you read my last post on page 1 guys

[Inesophet]

Beasts are the (i guess seven) Unclean animals. Pork, Owl, Bat and some others i forgot.

Hitler didnt smoke, drink or ate meat. It doesnt matter what u eat.

[Internal Queries]

Mathew 15.10 After Jesus called the crowd to him, he said, "Listen and understand what I am saying. 11 It is not what people put into their mouths that makes them unclean. It is what comes out of their mouths that makes them unclean."

[Lightspirit]

thats better guys better than quoting the gospels of peace lol.

Christians live under Grace you can eat whatever you want. If you look into the old testament ( as some do) and bind yourself with old testament laws regarding it you might as well live under the law. Grace fees you from all that. As much as this pro vegetarian animal rights type person hates to admit it. THe NT says not to feel guilty about what you eat in relation to the law. If you want to its ok to eat meat.

[Time]

I agree LW, it doesnt really matter, is how much you respect the fact that it died so you can eat right?

Even if you want to follow the OT, the NT states that the old covanent is abolished, which IMO means the old laws in deuteronamy, and even the ten commandments ( which is part of the old covanent)

Once again, since were talkin the bible here, I bring back attention to the genesis quote i posted, which states it doesnt matter, according to god, its for us to enjoy ( i dont agree with the whole "humans are masters of everything" talk, but I agree about it doesnt matter what we eat)

As long as you are aware that what ever you eat died so you can eat, and respect the fact that it was once alive, then it shouldnt matter

[Lightspirit]

I agree LW, it doesnt really matter, is how much you respect the fact that it died so you can eat right?

Even if you want to follow the OT, the NT states that the old covanent is abolished, which IMO means the old laws in deuteronamy, and even the ten commandments ( which is part of the old covanent)

Once again, since were talkin the bible here, I bring back attention to the genesis quote i posted, which states it doesnt matter, according to god, its for us to enjoy ( i dont agree with the whole "humans are masters of everything" talk, but I agree about it doesnt matter what we eat)

As long as you are aware that what ever you eat died so you can eat, and respect the fact that it was once alive, then it shouldnt matterYeah mate good post and very right. I couldn't agree
More with you about it's wrong how we humans disrespect the things we share this world with with our superiority complex we have.

[Time]

Thats why sacrifices were practiced, and tribal rituals (dancing spirit quests etc), pow wows, and even a prayer before eating, all of which we generaly stopped doing.

Too many people dont even understand where there food comes from, and what is done to prepare the land/food, "out of sight out of mind" comes to my head. This is why i partake in the vean threads, most dont understand the damage plant farming (yes the same as animal farming), does to the planet, and dont understand what is done to the food so we can eat it. Its not the "carnivore/omnivore/vegan" argument, its how much damage is our food in general doing to the enviroment....

[DebbyM]

thats better guys better than quoting the gospels of peace lol.

Christians live under Grace you can eat whatever you want. If you look into the old testament ( as some do) and bind yourself with old testament laws regarding it you might as well live under the law. Grace fees you from all that. As much as this pro vegetarian animal rights type person hates to admit it. THe NT says not to feel guilty about what you eat in relation to the law. If you want to its ok to eat meat.

On the other hand, if you believe that God created the world and he gave the seed bearing herbs of the field (and other plants ) to eat before sin came into the world, and He promises that on the new earth, the lion will lay down with the lamb and there will be no more death, than it would seem that in His ideal creation, veganism carries the day. So the choice to eat meat is a choice to live within the parameters of the sin blighted world instead of living as God originally intended.

[DebbyM]

Beasts are the (i guess seven) Unclean animals. Pork, Owl, Bat and some others i forgot.

Hitler didnt smoke, drink or ate meat. It doesnt matter what u eat.

So Hitler didn't smoke, drink or eat meat....and this means....?

[Inesophet]

So Hitler didn't smoke, drink or eat meat....and this means....?

It does not matter what people eat.

[DebbyM]

It does not matter what people eat.


I guess my counter to that would be that it matters very much to the animals.

[Inesophet]

I guess my counter to that would be that it matters very much to the animals.


And Animals eat plants or other animals. Are they not life? Life must consume Life in order to create more life. That is the very basic Principle of life itself. How is a Animal lets say a goat (YUMMY!) more importend then a Onion? What makes a Goat so special? Because its a mammal? because its close to our own species?

Is the Owl or cat evil for eating mice?

[DebbyM]

And Animals eat plants or other animals. Are they not life? Life must consume Life in order to create more life. That is the very basic Principle of life itself. How is a Animal lets say a goat (YUMMY!) more importend then a Onion? What makes a Goat so special? Because its a mammal? because its close to our own species?

Is the Owl or cat evil for eating mice?

Hi Inesophet. Onions have no sense of suffering as does the goat. Look into the eyes of your dog or cat, watch the cow watching you and tell me that they do not have feelings, that they do not suffer.... I watched a video a couple days ago, taken by an investigator who'd travelled from Australia to Indonesia to a slaughterhouse where many of the 350,000 cattle who are born in Australia, end their days. As the steer slipped and broke his leg, and was unable to rise, I watched the killer dig his thumb into the poor creatures eye and repeatedly dig and gouge to the point that I thought surely his eye would be popped out. When that didn't work to get him to his feet, the killer reached over and broke his tail. There was audio and it was possible to hear the moans of that poor suffering animal. It was heartbreaking and sickening to hear and watch.

Tell me, as one human with a sense of the wonder of all life, to another, that the onion or the carrot or the apple, is the same as that pathetic animal. We are humans with an awareness of our unique position in the cosmos (at least some of us have that awareness) and out of that awareness surely we can work up the compassion that can not only mitigate that steers pain but allow him to live free of human inflicted pain and suffering. Our entire human history has been an evolution, not only in body but in spirit. Do we raise the bar on human consciousness or do we settle and assuage whatever minimal discomfort we might have by claiming only 'our animal' nature. And if we choose to settle for the 'animal' pronouncement, then to ask for mercy personally on any level is senseless for if we cannot give mercy, then how dare we ask for it.

As for the owl or the cat, they are not blessed by the same intellect and understanding that we are and to hold them to the same standard as we, is pointless and merely argumentative.

[Lovely]

And Animals eat plants or other animals. Are they not life? Life must consume Life in order to create more life. That is the very basic Principle of life itself. How is a Animal lets say a goat (YUMMY!) more importend then a Onion? What makes a Goat so special? Because its a mammal? because its close to our own species?

Is the Owl or cat evil for eating mice?

Debby answered your question perfectly but come on...
Do you really not see the difference between an onion and a goat?

Also since you unnecessarily called a goat "YUMMY!" which appears as if your
just trying to upset her and poking at her close held beliefs which is rather childish to me.

[Lightspirit]

Meat is just a cruel flavor and that's all it is. It's not a necessity, it's desire. I havnt eaten it for 5 years so it sure isn't necessity.

[Inesophet]

We can see the Pain of Mammels because we are related to them more close. But saying that an Plant does not feel pain or suffering is wrong. There where many experiments who proved that quite conclusivly.

Life is Life. And no lifeform is better then another one. Choosing to not eat meat because it takes the life of another lifeform does not make sense. We just shift the flavor of the life we consume. And lets be honest in one point. Plants Produce Oxygene. Insects and animals consume them. We consume them.

That is a perfect circle of life. Veggies are fine, meat is fine. Thats my opinion and i guess Jesus himself would agree with that statement.

[Zero]

I look into the eyes of my pets everyday, and if anything that is what encourages me to continue eating meat. When I see my cats playing with cute fluffy things it reminds me how humans giving animals the emotions they do is not beneficial to either species, not really. Not saying they don't feel, but the fact is they aren't human, and we can never know what they truely experience. When you hear that animal howling in pain it is hard, but you cannot know what that animal is experiencing, at that moment they are likely running on instinct and their thoughts are plain animalistic, they aren't "thinking" and most animals do not process pain as humans do anyway.

Yes I know, I'm sure many will say I'm just saying this to justify my eating habits. But when you spend a lot of time with nature I think if anything you learn to appreciate eating meat more.

[DebbyM]

We can see the Pain of Mammels because we are related to them more close. But saying that an Plant does not feel pain or suffering is wrong. There where many experiments who proved that quite conclusivly......



This is a rather wordy explanation and part of a discussion of why the whole 'plants feel pain' hypothesis, in all likelihood, is without merit. I do hope that you read it. I've also included the link where you can follow it for more info that is also interesting and excellent.

http://skepticalvegan.wordpress.com/2010/03/19/myths-of-the-vegetarian-myth/

skepticalvegan Says:
February 2, 2011 at 11:48 pm
Ive already addressed this elsewhere but… The idea that plants feel pain is simply false and based on outdated and debunked research, it is not supported by modern biologists.
The idea of plant perception stems from a study in the 60s by a Cleve Backster, he used a galvanic skin response meter which measure electrical conductivity, it has nothing to do with the perception of pain just how electrical conductive object is. The paper which was looking for ESP effects was published in a PARAPSYCHOLOGY journal, not a legitimate or respected journal or field of research.
Backster also had no legitimate degree in science and was a general enthusiast of the paranormal and various pseudosciences.

Immune system reactions are different and separate from the reaction of nerve cells which carry pain. Plants lack all the mechanisms of pain and perception, even a rudimentary nervous system. Plants also don’t have an evolutionary reason to have pain perception. Not all biological reactions are forms of pain or perception, to say otherwise is to misunderstand or ignore what biologists actually mean when they say “pain”.

“what makes you any more right than me?”
The fact that the idea that plants feel pain is simply false. The original experiment was extremely flawed and unreproducible and subsequent experiments in the area have failed. The idea that plants feel pain is one rejected by the scientific community, and is primarily promoted by fringe cranks. This argument will get you nowhere.



skepticalvegan Says:
March 18, 2011 at 8:47 pm
“Is “pain” the defining characteristic of something that matters? Plants can be killed because they don’t feel pain, have no nervous system, etc?”
Not so much “pain” as “suffering” of which physical pain is one aspect, but the lack of a nervous system, especially a centralized one, would seem to indicate a lack of ability to experience other forms of suffering such as psychological distress. The lack of nociceptors or any conceivable mechanism for plant sentience leaves us in the position of not knowing for sure whether they can suffer but with enough experimental evidence and evolutionary theories about pain to say we have very little reason to assume plants feel pain and no evidence that they do. To leap from this position to the position that “animals feel pain and plants may too, so harming either one is ethically equivalent” would be quite irrational such as the recent piece in the NY Times seemed to say. I personally think the more rational position in this question given evolutionary theory and our current evidence is to accept the null hypothesis (plants are not sentient), at least until convincing evidence is presented. That being said, yes it is the fact that something is sentient that would make harming it wrong, if it was non-sentient then it simply isn’t an ethical subject, at least in regards to suffering. I’m not really sure I agree with the position of inanimate objects, non-sentient life, land masses, and even abstract concepts and constructions have inherent rights (a position taken by the likes of Derrick Jensen), it is not the river that has rights but rather all the sentient beings that rely on the river.

[DebbyM]

I look into the eyes of my pets everyday, and if anything that is what encourages me to continue eating meat. When I see my cats playing with cute fluffy things it reminds me how humans giving animals the emotions they do is not beneficial to either species, not really. Not saying they don't feel, but the fact is they aren't human, and we can never know what they truely experience. When you hear that animal howling in pain it is hard, but you cannot know what that animal is experiencing, at that moment they are likely running on instinct and their thoughts are plain animalistic, they aren't "thinking" and most animals do not process pain as humans do anyway.

Yes I know, I'm sure many will say I'm just saying this to justify my eating habits. But when you spend a lot of time with nature I think if anything you learn to appreciate eating meat more.

You can't be serious? We don't know what they are experiencing when they are howling as we inflict pain upon them? Or as they stand, shaking and trembling uncontrollably as they watch their fellows being dragged down, restrained, eye gouged and throats sawed open and the smell of blood everywhere, and 'we can't know what they are experiencing? That is absolutely cold.

I do spend a lot of time with nature, have had animals in my home forever, have two hyper sensitive Arab horses that have lived with me for seventeen years, and if anything, it has impressed upon me more, how aware of their own safety and lives animals are. Animals do not stand dully waiting for us to slaughter them, but run at the first opportunity to achieve safety. They are aware, they feel fear, they feel pain, they struggle to save their own lives, all things that you do. That their understanding of their environment might not be identical to yours is moot and trumpeting that they are different in this regard and thus are ours to brutally slaughter is truly only an excuse to justify taking a life needlessly. And for those of us discussing here, in this culture, and in our society, it is needlessly.

According to that argument, if I kill your mentally disabled child, I am morally and ethically innocent. By your parameters as stated, when Robert Latimer compassionately killed his severely disabled daughter, who suffered every day of her life, he should not have been thrown in jail for ten years or whatever the sentence was. If 'how pain is perceived' is the relevant question, then hers was definitely different than yours or mine and killing her should not have been an indictable offense. Or are you now taking the high road and hanging it all on ' we are not animals, we are different, we are special'. Back and forth we go, we are animals, we are not animals, we are animals, we are not animals. Dreadfully consistent in the inconsistency of the argument wouldn't you say? I suppose it all depends on the direction of the discussion at the moment. How much more consistent is the concept of "we don't need to breed and kill them to survive very nicely, so we should not".

[Inesophet]

You can't be serious? We don't know what they are experiencing when they are howling as we inflict pain upon them? Or as they stand, shaking and trembling uncontrollably as they watch their fellows being dragged down, restrained, eye gouged and throats sawed open and the smell of blood everywhere, and 'we can't know what they are experiencing? That is absolutely cold.

I do spend a lot of time with nature, have had animals in my home forever, have two hyper sensitive Arab horses that have lived with me for seventeen years, and if anything, it has impressed upon me more, how aware of their own safety and lives animals are. Animals do not stand dully waiting for us to slaughter them, but run at the first opportunity to achieve safety. They are aware, they feel fear, they feel pain, they struggle to save their own lives, all things that you do. That their understanding of their environment might not be identical to yours is moot and trumpeting that they are different in this regard and thus are ours to brutally slaughter is truly only an excuse to justify taking a life needlessly. According to that argument, if I kill your mentally disabled child, I am morally and ethically innocent.


Of course they run away from a predator thats because they want to survive. That is the whole concept of life itself. Survival to reproduce. We as a social species are a little more complicated but thats another story for another thread. But killing a mentally disabled child has nothing todo with eating meat. So i go on eat meat, but please stop the euthanasia thats a bad business.

On the previous Post
Its funny that a self proclaiming spiritual person denies any existence for a Plants (lets say an onion) will to survive or feel pain because there are in his/her opinion not enough scientific Proof.

It gave me quite the chuckle just now.


The original Topic also was about jesus. And im pretty sure that he said we should eat his Flesh and drink his blood ....not his onions and soy milk. Cant get more clearer then that.

[DebbyM]

We can see the Pain of Mammels because we are related to them more close. ....... Jesus himself would agree with that statement.

Please then answer me, as I presume that you are a Christian from the closing of the above post, what do you have to say about the fact that 'God created a vegan world (giving us every seed bearing plant and fruits) to eat', and killing only entered the picture after you sinned. And what do you have to say about the fact that the Bible tells us that when God creates the new earth, the lion will lay down with the lamb and death will be no more? In case you would like to look it up, that is in the book of Isaiah 11:6 specifically And take note that although in Revelation 21 it is written, pain will be no more, and the statement might be addressed to humans, the words are "Pain will be no more"....."for the old order of things has passed away.” And taken in the context of how Isaiah describes the time when the Lord returns and rules the world, it is apparent that meat eating has ended for the old order will have passed away.

The effect of sin was death...death entered the world because of sin and as a Christian, if your true desire was to live as closely to God as He originally intended, then it would seem to be a slam-dunk, that you would also eat according to His original plan. So it would seem to me as I go through this logically, that either Christians in general really aren't interested in living as close to God's way as they can, or that they realize that their way is not what God originally intended and they are happy to be 'helpless victims' of their addiction to meat/killing because their interest is really in appetite appeasement. So which is it?

[DebbyM]

Of course they run away from a predator thats because they want to survive. That is the whole concept of life itself. Survival to reproduce. We as a social species are a little more complicated but thats another story for another thread. But killing a mentally disabled child has nothing todo with eating meat. So i go on eat meat, but please stop the euthanasia thats a bad business.

On the previous Post
Its funny that a self proclaiming spiritual person denies any existence for a Plants (lets say an onion) will to survive or feel pain because there are in his/her opinion not enough scientific Proof.

It gave me quite the chuckle just now.


The original Topic also was about jesus. And im pretty sure that he said we should eat his Flesh and drink his blood ....not his onions and soy milk. Cant get more clearer then that.

Yes this self proclaimed spiritual person believes that plants do not feel pain or fear the way that we do, the way animals do, because there is no proof. I never said that they don't have a place and a purpose in this world, or that they are made of anything different than you or I or a cow. At our most basic level, we are all collections of atoms that are comprised of basic elements. That being said, those elements are arranged differently than mammals because their purpose is different. They are like the 'ventilation and environmental control system' in my new home. They keep it livable for the rest of us and as such, we are obligated by necessity to take care of them. But to equate them with the beings that 'live inside the house' is desperation to protect your way of life, your habits and traditions.

Then why do plants not run to survive if they are no different than animals? In fact their reproduction can be benefited by being consumed. To continually equate onions and cattle or dogs or chickens or kittens is a stretch and indicates little other than you have nothing.

And yes, you are right, the original question was about Jesus. And I am looking forward to hearing your points on how God originally created the world and what it will be like when 'God returns to rule'. That you use the instructions of the Christ to 'eat his flesh and drink his blood' to justify the brutality that goes on towards helpless animals tells me that your understanding of the messages in the Bible are skewed. Can't get more clear than that.

[Lightspirit]

Pro meat people tell me is whaling ok? after all it is just meat right?

[DebbyM]

Inesophet, when Zero brings into the discussion the statement that we are justified in killing animals because their perception of pain is different than ours, than for me to point out that the severely physical and mentally disabled child is also cursed with a different perception of pain and environment is to follow that line of reasoning for the purpose of pointing out that there is a grave error in logic. If that is our criteria for how we decide who to kill, then the human is not safe especially when another justification is often, we are simply animals ourselves and doing what comes naturally. Of course the other side of that 'animal' coin that is conversely used as the need arises, is that we are humans and 'have been given dominion over the animals'.

I am still waiting to hear your explanation as regards the whole creation/new earth situation and your relationship to it. And I hesitate to push on this, for fear of appearing argumentative, but ........ I can't help but feel that your silence is telling. By the way, to all the rest of the Christian meat eaters out there, the question is also open to you so don't be shy.

[Inesophet]

....
Then why do plants not run to survive if they are no different than animals? ......

THATS TOO FUNNY!!!
I was quite exhausted from work just now, but i instantly got better after reading this. Thats why i didnt answer you. Some People (i know not many in this economy but still) WORK.

To your Wave of explainations:

Im not christian. And the Original question was about jesus reckons we should eat meat or not. He asks us to eat meat. Quite directly actually

We put ourselves on a too high pedestal. We think we are sooo smart but still we are animals. No better then a dog. We just have a slightly bigger brain and we got hands instead of paws. So we assume that the life of a dog is more worth then an onion (i really like onions btw). Because the dogs design is so simmilar to our own.

One basic principle of life usually is that species should not eat each other. I guess some people who dont eat meat have something wrong. If they think that a Dog essantially belongs to the same species as a Human...well that aint right let me tell you.

I can understand why some people dont like monkeys...yes they are quite close to be honest. Apart from that i find it hard to believe that people can be so narrowminded in saying that a plant WANTS to be eaten. I get it, i do you like veggies. When i see a [insert favorite Animal] i get also hungry and justify that it actually wants to be eaten.

Well they dont want. The dog doesnt want to die in the same way as the onion doesnt want to die. Still everybody dies. And EVERYBODY gets consumed by other lifeforms in the end. Thats the very principle of life.

I would love to write more, but i gotta cook. that topic made me Hungry(Bolognese)

[Time]

Inesophet, when Zero brings into the discussion the statement that we are justified in killing animals because their perception of pain is different than ours

The same can be said for plants though. Just becasue we dont see it as a life, or a s a lower form of life, doesnt mean its any better to not eat meat, and eat all the plants we find.. its all the same thing.. Life is there to feed other life, the main thig is that we dotn cause harm ( which farming meat AND veggies does)


discussion the statement that we are justified in killing animals because their perception of pain is different than ours, than for me to point out that the severely physical and mentally disabled child is also cursed with a different perception of pain and environment is to follow that line of reasoning for the purpose of pointing out that there is a grave error in logic

Once again, its the exact same thing with plants. Just becasue it dosnt howl out in pain, doesnt mean it doesnt know whats going on. You cant say eating soem form of life is bad, then go on to another form of life and say its "ok" that doesnt even make any sence to me.

Im sure debs, you hear the same reason that i do for people going veg ( and im not saying you say this, but hear it) " oh but animals have faces and look at you, and feel and scream etc), but just because it doesnt scream doesnt mean its ok to kill it. Ill bring attention to your example of the disabled person, if he cant feel scream or looka t you, would you eat him? What if a plant scremed, would you eat it?


And no, whaling is NOT ok, but they dont use it for the meat, they take certain organs out, and toss the rest. Wastefull "harvesting", is where lots of the damage is, and that goes from plants to animals as well. The way we farm plants an animals now, is wrong...

And the bible says its ok to eat what ever you want, as lon as you respect it. ITs pretty plain and simple

[Time]

[plants do want to be eaten, its how the spread their seeds. Its the proncople reason why fruit trees fruit ( but i agree with yoududee

[Lightspirit]

THATS TOO FUNNY!!!
I was quite exhausted from work just now, but i instantly got better after reading this. Thats why i didnt answer you. Some People (i know not many in this economy but still) WORK.

To your Wave of explainations:

Im not christian. And the Original question was about jesus reckons we should eat meat or not. He asks us to eat meat. Quite directly actually

We put ourselves on a too high pedestal. We think we are sooo smart but still we are animals. No better then a dog. We just have a slightly bigger brain and we got hands instead of paws. So we assume that the life of a dog is more worth then an onion (i really like onions btw). Because the dogs design is so simmilar to our own.

One basic principle of life usually is that species should not eat each other. I guess some people who dont eat meat have something wrong. If they think that a Dog essantially belongs to the same species as a Human...well that aint right let me tell you.

I can understand why some people dont like monkeys...yes they are quite close to be honest. Apart from that i find it hard to believe that people can be so narrowminded in saying that a plant WANTS to be eaten. I get it, i do you like veggies. When i see a [insert favorite Animal] i get also hungry and justify that it actually wants to be eaten.

Well they dont want. The dog doesnt want to die in the same way as the onion doesnt want to die. Still everybody dies. And EVERYBODY gets consumed by other lifeforms in the end. Thats the very principle of life.

I would love to write more, but i gotta cook. that topic made me Hungry(Bolognese) OK lots on here have jobs I do. I would rather this than tv.
If you took the time to read through this, it started with me questioning the Essence gospel of peace and if anyone knew about it.. I left a post later regarding its questionability I later found out.

Trying to work out IF man should not eat meat via the essene gospel of peace is as pointles as the edge of abowling ball.


Ok heres how it is ill write it for you guys as best I can.

There are laws and writings in the old testament regarding vegetarianism and other things. If you want to live your life by those you might as well live under Jewish law not grace as christians do.. " all things are permissible but not all things are beneficial"

You can eat meat if you want to biblically because of new testament writings..

I personaly dont like that it says it is ok but It is written there.

Ok my own personal belief and experience.


Put a normal young human child in a playpen with an apple and a fluffy white rabbit.

If that child eats the rabbit and plays with the apple as a matter of natural instinct I will buy you a new car.

Its not natural we are as children disgusted by killing something like a rabbit.

If I chopped the head off one of our chickens in fromt of my kids in full view they would be traumatised.


killing animals for food is NOT NEEDED YOU DONT NEED to do it its only a desire. there is nothing nowadays you cant get from other sources.- except saturated animal fats!

If you desire to kill its only your WILL to inflict suffering for your taste buds sake.

Each mouthful of that flesh fills you with the pain and suffering of the cruel existence it had in thre battery farm. You ingest its suffering

[Time]

Put a young human child in a playpen with an apple and a fluffy white rabbit.

If that child eats the rabbit and plays with the apple I wil give you my house and car.

Its not natural we are as children disgusted by killing something like a rabbit.

If I chopped the head off one of our chickens in fromt of my kids in full view they would be traumatised.


Only because we condition out children to see rabbits as pets rather then food. You do the same thing to a bushtribe, theyd both beeaten and dead before you can say why

[Lightspirit]

Put a young human child in a playpen with an apple and a fluffy white rabbit.

If that child eats the rabbit and plays with the apple I wil give you my house and car.

Its not natural we are as children disgusted by killing something like a rabbit.

If I chopped the head off one of our chickens in fromt of my kids in full view they would be traumatised.


Only because we condition out children to see rabbits as pets rather then food. You do the same thing to a bushtribe, theyd both beeaten and dead before you can say why A child must be shown this by an adult there is no way a young child will kill a cute fluffy creature..sorry its just not gonna happen people are all the same everywhere.

sounds like a good bet! A new Ferrari for the winner pick 2 4 year old normal children anywhere give both a fluffy rabbit and an apple... If one of those rabbits is eaten raw you got yourself a new Ferrari..deal? if the apples get eaten and the rabbits get patted its mine. Want to take me up on it?

[DebbyM]

THATS TOO FUNNY!!!
I was quite exhausted from work just now, but i instantly got better after reading this. Thats why i didnt answer you. Some People (i know not many in this economy but still) WORK.

To your Wave of explainations:

Im not christian. And the Original question was about jesus reckons we should eat meat or not. He asks us to eat meat. Quite directly actually

We put ourselves on a too high pedestal. We think we are sooo smart but still we are animals. No better then a dog. We just have a slightly bigger brain and we got hands instead of paws. So we assume that the life of a dog is more worth then an onion (i really like onions btw). Because the dogs design is so simmilar to our own.

One basic principle of life usually is that species should not eat each other. I guess some people who dont eat meat have something wrong. If they think that a Dog essantially belongs to the same species as a Human...well that aint right let me tell you.

I can understand why some people dont like monkeys...yes they are quite close to be honest. Apart from that i find it hard to believe that people can be so narrowminded in saying that a plant WANTS to be eaten. I get it, i do you like veggies. When i see a [insert favorite Animal] i get also hungry and justify that it actually wants to be eaten.

Well they dont want. The dog doesnt want to die in the same way as the onion doesnt want to die. Still everybody dies. And EVERYBODY gets consumed by other lifeforms in the end. Thats the very principle of life.

I would love to write more, but i gotta cook. that topic made me Hungry(Bolognese)


Hmmm, yes and some of us are lucky enough to have worked so hard that we can retire at 50. But keep working and maybe one day you can too.

If you are not a Christian, then why do you even mention it? An effort to confuse perhaps or because you couldn't think of anything else to say?

So if we are only animals, no better than a dog, it is acceptable to put down disabled people? Because that is what we do to sick dogs. The logical end to your line of reasoning.

If you say that 'One basic principle of life usually is that species should not eat each other' then I have to ask, why do you betray that one basic principle? Again, your confusing line of reasoning. And I should point out that no one ever said that dogs 'essantially belongs to the same species as a Human'. You imply that I did, but i did not. And no one ever said that plants 'want' to do anything. What I did say is that they have a purpose and their presence goes in large part toward making this planet inhabitable for the rest of us.

I'm afraid that you have no line of reasoning but are indeed all over the map, grabbing at straws here and there as it suits you. What it all boils down to Inesophet, is that you eat animals because you don't care that they suffer because you are more important, your appetites, your wants....and I get that. We are all at different points along the evolutioneary line and that is as it should be. It doesn't matter who gets 'there' first, because we all get there eventually. That is the very principle of life , and nothing else is.

I am grateful for your involvement here though because you gave me an opportunity to move along my evolutionary path and that is all I want to do.

And by the way, since Inesophet isn't a Christian, so can't explain any of the Biblical creation/new earth issues, it would still be interesting to hear how other Christians explain it away. Put on your thinking caps folks.

[Lightspirit]

Look a couple of posts up I did

[DebbyM]

Do you realize that killing came into being as a result of sin? And do you realize that much of what the Christ said was a metaphor, word pictures to make a lesson clearer. For example when Peter saw the sheet come down from heaven and it was crawling with clean and unclean creatures and he was told to eat because it was all clean, it was a mere moments before an unclean gentile came to the door to ask for his help. It was to show him that the gospel of peace was for all and not just his little elect 'club' of converted Jews. Symbolism to make a point.

The sacrifices of animals in the temple was to show what the peoples sin had wrought and to foreshadow the coming sacrifice of the Christ.

And again, one simply needs to look at the original creation BEFORE sin, and again to discover what God says the new earth will be like, to see what God's intention was, is. The fact that Christ operated within the parameters of a fallen world only serves to highlite the difference between God's original intention and the low level that humans had sunk to.

As for the laws and writings in the old testament regarding veg'nism, the fact that God blessed Daniel and his friends with good health compared to the kings court says much about God's attitude towards this lifestyle.

[DebbyM]

Look a couple of posts up I did


From the posts that you've written, I am assuming that you are a vegetarian and as you may guess, that pleases me. And going by your profile, I am assuming that you are a Christian. So here goes:

My question was: how does the average (meat eating) Christian rationalize their meat eating habits with the world that God intended for us at creation, and has promised as the new earth reward, where we will have every seed bearing herb, etc., for food, and where the lion will lay down with the lamb,etc.

I'm afraid that pointing at 'living under grace as per the new testament, compared to under the law of the old testament' doesn't answer the question.

If a Christians desire to live a life close to God, in a manner that exemplifies a Creator God, then how can they justify killing? anything? Or is this an example of cherry picking to suit ones own personal habits, traditions and tastes. And if that is the case, then I would suggest that there is a world full of Christians that have just turned their back on God and make a mockery of every "I love Jesus" statement they've ever made. My opinion.

[DebbyM]

The same can be said for plants though. Just becasue we dont see it as a life, or a s a lower form of life, doesnt mean its any better to not eat meat, and eat all the plants we find.. its all the same thing.. Life is there to feed other life, the main thig is that we dotn cause harm ( which farming meat AND veggies does)




Once again, its the exact same thing with plants. Just becasue it dosnt howl out in pain, doesnt mean it doesnt know whats going on. You cant say eating soem form of life is bad, then go on to another form of life and say its "ok" that doesnt even make any sence to me.

Im sure debs, you hear the same reason that i do for people going veg ( and im not saying you say this, but hear it) " oh but animals have faces and look at you, and feel and scream etc), but just because it doesnt scream doesnt mean its ok to kill it. Ill bring attention to your example of the disabled person, if he cant feel scream or looka t you, would you eat him? What if a plant scremed, would you eat it?


And no, whaling is NOT ok, but they dont use it for the meat, they take certain organs out, and toss the rest. Wastefull "harvesting", is where lots of the damage is, and that goes from plants to animals as well. The way we farm plants an animals now, is wrong...

And the bible says its ok to eat what ever you want, as lon as you respect it. ITs pretty plain and simple

Yes I can say that because a plant has no system to feel pain and experience suffering that it is acceptable to use it for food. But when I see that the elephant mourns the loss of family members, and carry both good and bad memories for decades and seeks revenge, or that the dog screams in pain as it is beaten, or the steer moans and trembles uncontrollably as its fellows are killed right in front of it, then I can say that they are different and deserve different treatment. The only reason this doesn't make any sense to you Time, is because it flies in the face of what you want and what you want is to be able to eat meat, guilt free and one way to support yourself in the decision to not go full on vegan is to constantly reassure yourself that plants and animals are all the same and 'plants feel pain too, we just can't see it'.

You bring me the question of would I eat the disabled person because I can't hear him scream and I can only ask, what are you smoking? That human being has the same sensory apparatus that the cow does and on some level, he may have an awareness of suffering and it is not my place to cause it. The plant does not have that apparatus, there is no proof of brain function, nerve endings, etc. I suggest you take a look at my post a page or two back where I included a discussion about this very thing and it clarifies the issue of plant perception (experiments) far better than I can at this moment.

And as for whaling, you are wrong on that score too. They are supposed to only take enough whales for RESEARCH, but the meat winds up in stores and schools in Japan. They are hunting them to eat.

And still no Christian has answered the creation/new earth question.

[DebbyM]

[plants do want to be eaten, its how the spread their seeds. Its the proncople reason why fruit trees fruit ( but i agree with yoududee

Plants don't WANT to be eaten. In order to WANT anything, they have to have some form of cognitive mechanism, a brain to process the options and they don't. They are in some cases DESIGNED to proliferate by us or animals consuming their seeds and spreading them around that way, but it is a matter of design only.

[Chrysaetos]

Meat is just a cruel flavor and that's all it is. It's not a necessity, it's desire. I havnt eaten it for 5 years so it sure isn't necessity.Speak for yer self ;p . For me, it is a necessity for healthy living. Of course it is also a desire, which is what food is! :smile:
I look into the eyes of my pets everyday, and if anything that is what encourages me to continue eating meat. When I see cats and dogs, I only realize that as long as we want to have those funny things around, something has to be killed for it.

Removing the meat industry doesn't sound right.. animal rights however sounds good to me.Pro meat people tell me is whaling ok? after all it is just meat right?Doesn't sound right to me, because they are an intelligent mammalian species.
Yes, I discriminate. As do we all..

[Chrysaetos]

So if we are only animals, no better than a dog, it is acceptable to put down disabled people? Because that is what we do to sick dogs. The logical end to your line of reasoning.We are indeed animals, but so is the spider and the rabbit.

But we are also a certain species, homo sapiens. A species, like any other, with its own uniqueness.
If you say that 'One basic principle of life usually is that species should not eat each other' then I have to ask, why do you betray that one basic principle?Nobody here is ''betraying'' the principles. We can choose to eat other animals, or not. Either way, it is a choice. And choices are part of our nature.

Why is it so complicated?

[Squatchit]

Also since you unnecessarily called a goat "YUMMY!" which appears as if your just trying to upset her and poking at her close held beliefs which is rather childish to me.
I read this earlier today and couldn't agree more.

Inesophet - if you have no compassion, at least have a little tact.

[Time]

Yes I can say that because a plant has no system to feel pain and experience suffering that it is acceptable to use it for food

So your god now? You can say what is what, and who is what, and what is meant for what totaly? Theres more then enough evidence that plants are just as alive as you or me, but if your going to be ignorant about it, and not even bother to try to look it up, or even understand that it doesnt matter if its a spider, cat dog, danylion, clover, knot weed, corn, cow, duck moose or anything. They are no different, and saying one is ok to eat and others arent, are only going to inevitably create more and more consumption of that animal, and create more loss of habitat, and of course either domestication, and or over hunting.harvesting.

A child must be shown this by an adult there is no way a young child will kill a cute fluffy creature..sorry its just not gonna happen people are all the same everywhere.

sounds like a good bet! A new Ferrari for the winner pick 2 4 year old normal children anywhere give both a fluffy rabbit and an apple... If one of those rabbits is eaten raw you got yourself a new Ferrari..deal? if the apples get eaten and the rabbits get patted its mine. Want to take me up on it?

Umm, no, we arent all the same. People in different places have different perceptions on things. If you place soemthing that is food in a place where people dont get meat alot, like hunting gathering or horticultural tribes, they wouldnt hesistate to kill that rabbit, because to them, other thent he fact that its a life, the food and skin and what not, is all the rabbit is for. The only "pets" they have ar ebeneficial, as in food, or work. Thats a totaly different perception then people in the west, who dont have any real lack of food ( besides people with no money, and even then they still get more food then most bush tribes)


lants don't WANT to be eaten. In order to WANT anything, they have to have some form of cognitive mechanism, a brain to process the options and they don't. They are in some cases DESIGNED to proliferate by us or animals consuming their seeds and spreading them around that way, but it is a matter of design only.

Actualy, yes they do. Jsut you seem to ( liek msot people), use the term think as in an anthropimorphic veiwpoint. Im obviously not. Have you ever heard of co evolution, when 2 species of life evolve together for the benefit of both,or all involved? Well, the plants developed fruit, becasue the seeds spread further when they were eaten, this triggered the evolution of the "fruit" part, so animals are more enticed to eat it. Even before that, flowerdd evolved, becasue plant pollen is spread further by animals, more likley insects. Flowers evolved before fruits. Insects spreading the pollen, and aidin in the pollination of the flowers, caused an evolutionary explosion of flowering plants, beasue of all the insects that were around at the time. So im sorry. this is one of the rare cases Ill tell someone they are flat out wrong. All the things we eat, are only that way, becasue we either made them that way, and we used them originaly, becasue the food was tempting to us, either by taste f(meat), and look and taste (fruit and veggies).

So before you make statements on evolutionary botany, make sure you know your stufff please...

[Lightspirit]

From the posts that you've written, I am assuming that you are a vegetarian and as you may guess, that pleases me. And going by your profile, I am assuming that you are a Christian. So here goes:

My question was: how does the average (meat eating) Christian rationalize their meat eating habits with the world that God intended for us at creation, and has promised as the new earth reward, where we will have every seed bearing herb, etc., for food, and where the lion will lay down with the lamb,etc.

I'm afraid that pointing at 'living under grace as per the new testament, compared to under the law of the old testament' doesn't answer the question.

If a Christians desire to live a life close to God, in a manner that exemplifies a Creator God, then how can they justify killing? anything? Or is this an example of cherry picking to suit ones own personal habits, traditions and tastes. And if that is the case, then I would suggest that there is a world full of Christians that have just turned their back on God and make a mockery of every "I love Jesus" statement they've ever made. My opinion.

Debbie I am evangelical christian vegetarian type that believes in animal rights.

the Essene Gospel of peace text I quoted originally fits right in with my personal ethos and ideals of what I would like.

The thing about the word of god it must be looked upon as a whole. I have seen some christians cite verses in deuteronomy


The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.


Great case for abstaining from meat, the bible is clear here pork must not be eaten. - The problem here if you say this is your rule you are under the law not grace.



What you said about gods original plan and vegetarianism I agree with fully. Believe me I am with you on that.


The next things people bring up usually is peters vision with regard to Cornelius In Acts 11




4 Starting from the beginning, Peter told them the whole story: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6 I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles and birds. 7 Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’

8 “I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

9 “The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’ 10 This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.



This is declared as proof by pro meat eaters it is gods plan..But it is symbolic of the Jews calling gentiles unclean like pigs. This vision told Peter God cares about the Gentiles as much as Jews so he should spread the gospel to everyone.


The next thing is Pauls words not Jesus words-


The Believer’s Freedom
23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]


The Bible starts an example in the old testament about Gods original plan with vegetariniasm, and it finishes with free freedom under grace to eat or abstain from meat. Can you tell someone they should eat meat or abstain biblically. Yes you can , if you only use parts of the bible you can and not all of it.


What it all comes down to in the end.....

You can eat meat or abstain as a matter of personal choice.



This is what I really hate!

The fat guy is in the restaurant and has ordered dinner, when his steak comes out he tells the waiter to take it back and prepare another cooked more to his liking. In doing so he commands the death of another creature to feed his greed. This guy just only cares about himself. He dont care something else died- this is anti christian behaviour. Gluttony is anti christian.

This is where we need to raise our awareness of the animals in the world, out of our own decency.

[DebbyM]

So your god now? You can say what is what, and who is what, and what is meant for what..........
So before you make statements on evolutionary botany, make sure you know your stufff please...


No Time, I am not God, but I do know that science has never been able to show that plants are sentient beings. That they are alive goes without saying. And calling me ignorant because I don't agree with you doesn't make your case any better than being polite would. By the way, did you ever read that bit I posted by a blog writer who goes by the name, Skeptical Vegan? He explains quite concisely why your notion of plants and animals being the equivelant of one another is without merit.

Do you even know what anthropomorphic means? It means to apply human like characteristics and that is what you are doing, not me. I am saying that you can 'want', I can 'want' because we are humans, but plants don't 'want' because they are not like us.

Designed, evolved.....arguing words is a waste of time when we both know what I meant when I said plants are 'designed.....' The point was that those plants did not say to themselves, "hmm, I want to figure out a way to get my seeds spread further......" No want because no brain! A change occurred for any one of a variety of reasons, the plants that did change, prospered and eventually those that didn't change, died out. Evolution.

And thanks for the evolutionary botany lesson, not that it had much to do with the discussion actually, but it was interesting.

[DebbyM]

So your god now? You can say what is what, and who is what, and what is meant for what..........
So before you make statements on evolutionary botany, make sure you know your stufff please...


No Time, I am not God, but I do know that science has never been able to show that plants are sentient beings. That they are alive goes without saying. And calling me ignorant because I don't agree with you doesn't make your case any better than being polite would. By the way, did you ever read that bit I posted by a blog writer who goes by the name, Skeptical Vegan? He explains quite concisely why your notion of plants and animals being the equivelant of one another is without merit.

Do you even know what anthropomorphic means? It means to apply human like characteristics and that is what you are doing, not me. I am saying that you can 'want', I can 'want' because we are humans, but plants don't 'want' because they are not like us.

Designed, evolved.....arguing words is a waste of time when we both know what I meant when I said plants are 'designed.....' The point was that those plants did not say to themselves, "hmm, I want to figure out a way to get my seeds spread further......" No want because no brain! A change occurred for any one of a variety of reasons, the plants that did change, prospered and eventually those that didn't change, died out. Evolution.

And thanks for the evolutionary botany lesson, not that it had much to do with the discussion actually, but it was interesting.

[moke64916]

I think Jesus was on earth to teach people we can all be like him. He was trying to help us find out who we are. I believe there is no judgement. Food is food. I think Jesus was a master. I don't think meat is an issue. If you choose to believe that. That's your choice. You decide what's right for you in your heart. It's your free will. Do you really think it would be wrong to sustain from meat? Look inside for the answer.

[Time]

show that plants are sentient beings

Mabey back in the 70s, but not now. We know they move, they react to their enviroment, instantantiously in some instances, they grow, reproduce, they respond to ques by animals and other plants and evolve around them, they defend them selves from thread, some plants aid eachothers growth, theres some evidence they canreact to thought..... that isnt sentient. We just have this outdated mentality that humans good, everything else bad, destroy all....

The point was that those plants did not say to themselves, "hmm, I want to figure out a way to get my seeds spread further.......

no bevcause they arent animals, they dont have mouths silly. But that is pretty much what happens. The plant knows that that animal is aiding it, or that that action is aiding in its evolution, and ends up evolving around it. Its called evolution

And plants dont need a brain, becasue each induvidual cell, acts as one in the whole. ITs not unlike the borg from star trek. Each has its purpose and messages eachother, just the same as our bodies. Its no different... Life is life, and even the bible says that ( if your into that sort of thing:P)

[DebbyM]

Debbie I am evangelical christian vegetarian type that believes in animal rights.

the Essene Gospel of peace text I quoted originally fits right in with my personal ethos and ideals of what I would like.

The thing about the word of god it must be looked upon as a whole. I have seen some christians cite verses in deuteronomy


The pig is also unclean; although it has a split hoof, it does not chew the cud. You are not to eat their meat or touch their carcasses.


Great case for abstaining from meat, the bible is clear here pork must not be eaten. - The problem here if you say this is your rule you are under the law not grace.



What you said about gods original plan and vegetarianism I agree with fully. Believe me I am with you on that.


The next things people bring up usually is peters vision with regard to Cornelius In Acts 11




4 Starting from the beginning, Peter told them the whole story: 5 “I was in the city of Joppa praying, and in a trance I saw a vision. I saw something like a large sheet being let down from heaven by its four corners, and it came down to where I was. 6 I looked into it and saw four-footed animals of the earth, wild beasts, reptiles and birds. 7 Then I heard a voice telling me, ‘Get up, Peter. Kill and eat.’

8 “I replied, ‘Surely not, Lord! Nothing impure or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’

9 “The voice spoke from heaven a second time, ‘Do not call anything impure that God has made clean.’ 10 This happened three times, and then it was all pulled up to heaven again.



This is declared as proof by pro meat eaters it is gods plan..But it is symbolic of the Jews calling gentiles unclean like pigs. This vision told Peter God cares about the Gentiles as much as Jews so he should spread the gospel to everyone.


The next thing is Pauls words not Jesus words-


The Believer’s Freedom
23 “I have the right to do anything,” you say—but not everything is beneficial. “I have the right to do anything”—but not everything is constructive. 24 No one should seek their own good, but the good of others.

25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, “The earth is the Lord’s, and everything in it.”[f]


The Bible starts an example in the old testament about Gods original plan with vegetariniasm, and it finishes with free freedom under grace to eat or abstain from meat. Can you tell someone they should eat meat or abstain biblically. Yes you can , if you only use parts of the bible you can and not all of it.


What it all comes down to in the end.....

You can eat meat or abstain as a matter of personal choice.



This is what I really hate!

The fat guy is in the restaurant and has ordered dinner, when his steak comes out he tells the waiter to take it back and prepare another cooked more to his liking. In doing so he commands the death of another creature to feed his greed. This guy just only cares about himself. He dont care something else died- this is anti christian behaviour. Gluttony is anti christian.

This is where we need to raise our awareness of the animals in the world, out of our own decency.


You are absolutely right when you (and Paul) say that we have the right to do anything we want. From the Biblical perspective it is called free will. And along with that free will comes the willingness to accept whatever the repercussions, be it obesity, a stint in prison or even' life' away from God. But the Bible also shows completely clearly what God intended at creation and what will be on the new earth. That is not my opinion, it is there in black and white and no amount of linguistic shenanigans need be used in order to see it there, very clearly.

I am asking the question, " how does the average meat eating Christian ignore what is obviously Gods stated intention for the world He created"?

Grace was a gift from God and is the free and undeserved help that God gives us to respond to his call. That is what grace is. It moves us from within our souls, towards a life connected to and for God. It is the means to purify our souls, heal our wounds of sin and brings us to repentance. It was out of the Christs passion that we are handed that gift of sanctifying grace. Based on this, I don't believe that sanctifying grace and free will are comparable. One draws us to God and one allows us to do whatever we want, even bad things.

Considering that He who hands us that gift of sanctifying grace is also the one who gave every seed bearing herb for the food of all life forms and will preside over a world where that again becomes the way it is, to suggest that I am cherry picking despite the fact that Christians all over the world choose to ignore those opening verses as well as the others that refer to the new earth is unfortunate and appears biased. I can stand before God and say that from word one, I'm with You. I'm knowingly living in harmony with the principles of love for ALL of Your creation, indeed all that You had in mind from the first moment the idea of this world came to mind.

[Zero]

Inesophet, when Zero brings into the discussion the statement that we are justified in killing animals because their perception of pain is different than ours, than for me to point out that the severely physical and mentally disabled child is also cursed with a different perception of pain and environment is to follow that line of reasoning for the purpose of pointing out that there is a grave error in logic..
Nu uuuh that isn't what I said. The fact that an animals perception of pain is different from ours is seperate from my justification of eating meat and is an added bonus.

Also, a mentally disabled HUMAN child is not the same as a fully functional deer. Of course I wouldn't kill a human, I only kill for food and what the law says I am allowed to kill. :D

Debby, you keep looking at everything from a human perspective,applying human values to everything and seem incapable of seperating yourself from that. If you could look down at the wider picture I think you would find it very freeing.

You chop up crickets and they continue to scurry away, you could say it is fleeing in fear but I find it unlikely that the little cricket can feel much fear without a head.

[Gem]

I think Jesus was on earth to teach people we can all be like him. He was trying to help us find out who we are. I believe there is no judgement. Food is food. I think Jesus was a master. I don't think meat is an issue. If you choose to believe that. That's your choice. You decide what's right for you in your heart. It's your free will. Do you really think it would be wrong to sustain from meat? Look inside for the answer.

Maybe ask the eskimos.

[Time]

SOme people dont have a choice.

[DebbyM]

Nu uuuh that isn't what I said. The fact that an animals perception of pain is different from ours is seperate from my justification of eating meat and is an added bonus.

Also, a mentally disabled HUMAN child is not the same as a fully functional deer. Of course I wouldn't kill a human, I only kill for food and what the law says I am allowed to kill. :D

Debby, you keep looking at everything from a human perspective,applying human values to everything and seem incapable of seperating yourself from that. If you could look down at the wider picture I think you would find it very freeing.

You chop up crickets and they continue to scurry away, you could say it is fleeing in fear but I find it unlikely that the little cricket can feel much fear without a head.

I suppose that my 'human' perspective is the result of being a human and my values come as a result of a certain evolution of spirit. As for animals experiencing fear and pain, you can say all you want that their appreciation is different than mine, but that doesn't invalidate their experience. It just proves that your perspective is skewed in order for you to achieve what you want at the expense of another being who does experience pain and fear.

[DebbyM]

Mabey back in the 70s, but not now. We know they move, they react to their enviroment, instantantiously in some instances, they grow, reproduce, they respond to ques by animals and other plants and evolve around them, they defend them selves from thread, some plants aid eachothers growth, theres some evidence they canreact to thought..... that isnt sentient. We just have this outdated mentality that humans good, everything else bad, destroy all....

.

no bevcause they arent animals, they dont have mouths silly. But that is pretty much what happens. The plant knows that that animal is aiding it, or that that action is aiding in its evolution, and ends up evolving around it. Its called evolution

And plants dont need a brain, becasue each induvidual cell, acts as one in the whole. ITs not unlike the borg from star trek. Each has its purpose and messages eachother, just the same as our bodies. Its no different... Life is life, and even the bible says that ( if your into that sort of thing:P)

Do you just make this stuff up as you go? Prove everything you say, references, links, etc. and not just your opinion.

[Chrysaetos]

We're all looking at all of this from a human perspective. We tend to relate to those creatures who are similar to us.

We can enchant it with ''spiritual equality'' etc. but at the end of the day ''spiritual people'' too, will often have mammalian and avian pets, and not hug Mr. Spidey or prevent the local birds from eating Jimmy the Worm. There's nothing strange about relating to that which is similar to us, it is quite normal.

[Time]

Im sorry, im not so paranoid about my learnings, and information being wrong, that i need to post my sources. If you find it to be wrong, do what I do:

LOOK IT UP YOURSELF

Any botany book, even gardening book will explain it. Not to mention my own personal experience. Ive dealt with plants for 25 years debs. Ive read up on them since i could read. I knew the evolutionary steps of plants before i could write in cursive, and even before I know how to long devide. Plants are my passion, my muse, and my stress relieve, and hobby.

Im not expecting you to understand botany. It isnt a very "intersting" subject to most people. But being ignorant about exactly what plants do, when actualy having a diet only consisting of them, is dangerous IMO. Its no different from saying your christian, whichout actualy reading the bible

[DebbyM]

Im sorry, im not so paranoid about my learnings, and information being wrong, that i need to post my sources. If you find it to be wrong, do what I do:

LOOK IT UP YOURSELF

Any botany book, even gardening book will explain it. Not to mention my own personal experience. Ive dealt with plants for 25 years debs. Ive read up on them since i could read. I knew the evolutionary steps of plants before i could write in cursive, and even before I know how to long devide. Plants are my passion, my muse, and my stress relieve, and hobby.

Im not expecting you to understand botany. It isnt a very "intersting" subject to most people. But being ignorant about exactly what plants do, when actualy having a diet only consisting of them, is dangerous IMO. Its no different from saying your christian, whichout actualy reading the bible

Sloppy way to evade proving your statements Time and it simply leaves your reader with the 'confirmation' that you are making it all up. If you will notice, that for the sake of not only my own integrity but for the sake of people who wish to educate themselves, I invariably include links. It could even be considered a mark of civility unlike your "LOOK IT UP YOURSELF".

When I was in elementary school, I had to walk home each day and my route always took me past a florists shop. Invariably, I stopped there, nose pressed to the glass and 'oggled' the tropical plants inside. As I child, I several times asked for specific plants for a Christmas present, unlike my peers who wanted Barbie dolls which were a rather new item at the time. I have developed 'gardens' that include visual delights as well as food production and am currently blessed enough to be starting a new one from the ground up. And by the way, it has a natural pond on it, that is home to at least fifteen varieties of native songbirds and what sounds like thousands of frogs. The area around the pond will be maintained in it's natural state and I do not use pesticides because I wouldn't want anything to get in the water that could hurt the food supply of the frogs or the little brood of ducklings that are using my pond as their nursery. Next year I will start a vegetable garden that will provide me with a summers worth of natural, organic food. So spare me your self-aggrandizing statements about being an 'expert' on all things to do with botany compared to me. But then I guess all that is beat by your assertion that you came out of the womb with a trowel in your hand. You are 25 years old aren't you......and you did say you've been involved with plants for 25 years? So your sometimes condescending attitude is understandable considering your young age. I was very much like that when I was young too. Now I'm just a cranky old woman who is looking to living a life that is replete with as much learning and growth as possible and that leaves as small a mark as possible on my environment.

And by the way, my name is not debs, not even my husband refers to me that way and if anyone has the right to, he does. You do not.

[Time]

Sloppy way to evade proving your statements Time and it simply leaves your reader with the 'confirmation' that you are making it all up. If you will notice, that for the sake of not only my own integrity but for the sake of people who wish to educate themselves, I invariably include links.

Sorry im not making it up, and ive posted many sources of my information in our chats ( which dispite how you may think, i dont see as negative at all), and it seems like you have just disregarded them. I do not liek to reiterate myself, especialy when I make the same points over and over again. I also cant post links to books ive read years ago, or shows and videos ive seen 15 years ago, I can only state what I know and have found to be true ( which im sure you are doing as well)

When I was in elementary school, I had to walk home each day and my route always took me past a florists shop. Invariably, I stopped there, nose pressed to the glass and 'oggled' the tropical plants inside. As I child, I several times asked for specific plants for a Christmas present, unlike my peers who wanted Barbie dolls which were a rather new item at the time. I have developed 'gardens' that include visual delights as well as food production and am currently blessed enough to be starting a new one from the ground up. And by the way, it has a natural pond on it, that is home to at least fifteen varieties of native songbirds and what sounds like thousands of frogs. The area around the pond will be maintained in it's natural state and I do not use pesticides because I wouldn't want anything to get in the water that could hurt the food supply of the frogs or the little brood of ducklings that are using my pond as their nursery. Next year I will start a vegetable garden that will provide me with a summers worth of natural, organic food

See, how the hell can I argue with that LOL. If thats the case, disregard the threads weve been sharing, and from one gardener to another, i implore you to read gaias garden. It seems to fit you exact situation to a key, and I promise you, you will not come back from that book with the same outlook on gardening ( im not saying yours is wrong LOL, hell im jelous! I have a 100x 30 city lot LOL) Please, instead of pushing for vegans, push for gardening! I think we can bothj agree that growing your own food will solve half the problems in both of our beliefs.

Also, i think we may be able to learn from eachother, gardening wise. If you feel like sharing gardening knowledge, id greatly appreciate it, and show the same courtesy!

So spare me your self-aggrandizing statements about being an 'expert' on all things to do with botany compared to me. But then I guess all that is beat by your assertion that you came out of the womb with a trowel in your hand. You are 25 years old aren't you......and you did say you've been involved with plants for 25 years?

Im 26 ( on the 26th lol, champagne birthday!!! ), and ive always dealt with plants, even at a very young age ( my mom always says so). I was planting peas before I could walk. And i never said I was an expert, in fact i think youll agree with me when I say, in terms of gardening, theres so much to learn, and so much we dont know that no one should concider themselves an expert.) Only that I have more experience then you may think I do.


I was very much like that when I was young too. Now I'm just a cranky old woman who is looking to living a life that is replete with as much learning and growth as possible and that leaves as small a mark as possible on my environment.

You arent cranky LOL. Id never make assumptions about people based on their age ( if you want me to say, i actualy thought you were in your 30s or 40) at least you are having a civilized conversation about it without getting nasty. But the last part, I cant argue with, and Im trying to do the same thing, actualy you explained it better then I wouldve. Just because i may dissagree with how you think about it, doesnt mean i dont agree with your real outlook as a whole, which i see it as just as you said.

BTW, i never meant to insult you with debs ( I usualy shorten everyones name, just a habit) Im assuming you prefer debby?

[DebbyM]

Hello Time, thanks for your response to my last post. I'm afraid that as a result of our recent move to this new little house, I've developed some strains that have turned into a real 'pain in the neck' and as a result I think I was just a little short with you and for that I'm sorry. Please accept my apologies.

As for the gardening, yes I am blessed in my current location. It is the place that in my imagination I have always wanted to live in and now, at the end of my life I have arrived. I'm only sorry that I didn't get here 20 years ago. But at least I get to start the garden for the next folks who are lucky enough to live here.

The kind of gardening that you and your buddies here have been going on about is actually nothing new to me. It's how I've gardened always, my mother who is 75 and still plants a garden every year (and buys little if any veggies through much of the year), has gardened this way forever and the same with all my aunts and cousins. I guess it is more a case of it becoming newsworthy as a result of the current food issues that are facing the world. Ask anyone who was born during the Depression what the gardens were like when they were children and you'll be amazed to hear about what is considered 'new and amazing' today.

Anyway, again, my apolgies for the crankiness and happy gardening.

[Time]

Grats on the move (not the pain :S ) Im really hoping i do a similar thing, very very soon.

Some of the techniques and information are actualy from depression era people. Use of caregana to make free nitrogen fertilizer and multch is one fo them, same with cover crops. But theres more associations that these people have spent their whole lives finding and doing. Like certain plant guilds (groups of plants that benefit eachother), and creating a whole forest ecosystem, based around your need for food,

But we can learn alot from it in general. Its abotu everything being in balance, and equil. Not either or, which I think is mine and some others point here. We see veganism as either or, not a middle ground. And it is your way of life, you have no need to appologize for standing up for your beliefs ( but i do appreciate it, and im sorry to if i came of a it strong), I wouldnt expect anything else from a fellow canadian :P

I dont think its even news worthy much yet. I learned of it by word of mouth, so I guess you can say luck lol. I think you would enjoy the book regardless, especialy if your starting from scratch. Your never to old or young to learn

[Tipareth]

Hi I am new here, this is my first post. So hi to everybody :hug2:

This is a very interesting thread and here is view, please bear with me I am not English native, I am from East Europe, Romania, so my English got mistakes.


So I am vegetarian, for about 10 years... Before I was meat eater, and loved the meat a lot. I grew up in the little village, and country people got all sort of animals around the house, not organized farms for profit, so very different from US and West Europe.

We had chickens, pigs, 2 cows, just enough to produce some eggs, milk and yeah meat. I loved meat, but didn't love to see those animals screaming pain while being killed, I was crying as a child whenever grandparents decided they need to kill one.

However in a little family farm like that, animals were killed rarely, pigs in the winter, only one would get sacrificed, and chickens 1-2 per month. There were also some chicken so old, older than myself. All those animals were very in the nature all day outside, having space to run and doing pretty good life.

So yeah, basically that was it before revolution and capitalism to install here. And big capitalist farms...




So my point is kinda in the middle - eating meat when you are hungry and nothing else is to eat, when life is simple and those animals are running happy and that yard, and get killed randomly and rarely, that I can understand. It resembles nature and circle of life, because is not that organized.
I am not agreeing, as I am vegetarian, but I understand... At least those animals got happy life up to their killing. Some even die of old age instead of being killed.

However the horror stories I hear about those capitalist huge farms... not only about how those animals are dying, but also how those animals are LIVING. That scares the hell out of me - chicken fed intravenously, with the pattern of night/day broken just because is more profitable to have 2 eggs instead of 1 per day etc etc Not too mention the chemicals those animals are eating, injected with...

That is so brutal and so alike with Hitler methods. I do not have to express my feelings upon this... It's the hell on earth. We are producing hell. :icon_frown:


About the PLANTS - I think they feel the pain. All that is living is feeling pain. However I think the feeling is weaker than in animals and humans.
Also the plants got a root, cut the part that is above usually from the root comes another plant, even the trees, young branches are surrounding the old trunk. So their capacity of regenerating is way superior to animals and humans.

Also what humans are doing to plants - altering them genetically and putting all the chemicals on them is not good. I think plants are suffering immensely of the poisoning and humans eating them alike.
Eating poisoned plants, genetically altered plants, is worse than eating simple cooked natural meat. I came to realize that, even if I am vegetarian.

The answer is in simple food, clean natural. IF one can be vegetarian or vegan even better. But hell farms for animals and poisoned plants this is not the answer I am sure. Also rationalize that animals and plants do not feel pain, also is not the answer, because all that is living on Earth is feeling pain. And evolving means growing the love, transcending material into spiritual life. New rules for old world.


Google about Hunza Valley and Hunza people. Simple people that are living very long life. Still eating meat but rarely, mostly in winter. Eating very natural organic food, living simple in a non polluted environment.

[Tipareth]

I would also like to add that living simple, eating organic, basic, with rare meat, or no meat at all, vegetarian, vegan, helps in prolonging life, and in spiritual paths.

[Lightspirit]

Google about Hunza Valley and Hunza people. Simple people that are living very long life. Still eating meat but rarely, mostly in winter. Eating very natural organic food, living simple in a non polluted environment. Ok i can live with never eating meat again but pepsi and coke? there is where the struggle begins.

[Tipareth]

The true question is not being vegetarian or not, but more how gentle we are with beings and plants, even if we consume them.

How animals and plants are treated. Are we infecting them with growth hormones, are we keeping them in hell houses? Are we poisoning plants with chemicals and twist their nature into laboratories?

Are we living simple? Even if we like meat, are we aware that animals who run free in nature, in the yard are way more happy, even if at some point are killed for our food?

Where is the equilibrium in this?

As I recalled how I lived as a child, eating meat but rare... Meat was luxury product. Few times a month, this is all we consumed from our yard/little farm.

I think the answer is in respecting nature, and not poison it, not twist it for industrial purposes and for money. Also respect and love animals. If you want to eat meat eat it less often, and from little farms were animals lived happy in the yard. At least that.
This attitude respects that old circle of life... In nature animals are killing each other, but this is spontaneous and not planed, those animals that get killed up to the point of dieing, they are free and running happily in the nature. We should try to provide this environment for the animals that we eat. Then the prices of meat will get so high, and meat indeed will become the luxury product. For humans meat should be a luxury product, organic, expensive and rare.

[Tipareth]

Ok i can live with never eating meat again but pepsi and coke? there is where the struggle begins.

oh yeah... I know... lol

Pepsi and coke is like a drug or something, almost getting us addicted is not good. Better to not buy and having around, then try to fight this... cause is hard... :tongue:

[Lightspirit]

oh yeah... I know... lol

Pepsi and coke is like a drug or something, almost getting us addicted is not good. Better to not buy and having around, then try to fight this... cause is hard... :tongue: il allow myself at least that one vice in life somethings gotta kill me lol.

[Time]

Tip - Your english is better then most people i talk to, that SPEAK english. Youll learn lots ( please my typing sucks, dont use me as an example LOL)

Your post, is pretty much smack dab where I am. Except I eat meat. But i definetly share your sentiments on "oldschool farming" as opposed to "capitalist farming". How would it really be cruel to kill something you grew yourself ( aside form the "oh it has a face thing"), to me it would make me feel better knowing that the animals life was good, and that nothing was wasted in its death.

I think your right too, it sint meat vs plants, its about respecting natures abundance, NOT wasting it. The average america throws away 40% of all food bought. Thats produce and meat. How is that respecting? That means for every 100 000 cows eaten, depending on how you look at it, at least 10 000 cows are wated, just because we waste so much.

The same goes with plants. Most people, dont compost, they throw them out. Even farmers, all they want is "perfect" produce, becasue most people dont want to see a blemish on their lemon, or forked carrots...