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Unseeking Seeker
20-06-2019, 10:31 AM
***

For those who have been so blessed to experience Oneness in deep meditation ... the question is that having merged our in-form consciousness with Oneness awareness in the boundless sea of bliss and absoluteness, why are we dissolved and yet distinct?

To be more specific, among other possible paths provided by the Universe, during in-form awakening when we as consciousness or energy move up along the spine to the crown and then dissolve in the flow to enter space into the Oneness field, we are one with Oneness and yet in as ordained, distinct. Of course, reverse Oneness experience also happens when the Universe Itself descends into form ... there being no here and there or coming or going in actuality. So we then know that energetically or let us say vibrationally, all is One. Yet the aspect of duality or separateness of our consciousness remains.

Theory being meaningless from the practical standpoint ... all the stuff about self & non-self, being and not being, observing vs witnessing, knowing what is not to know what is and so on ... what we are saying is that in actual lived experience in the state of being flowing in the now continuum employing intuition rather than analysis (ego rested or disassociated) with a detached orientation of acceptance, fearlessness and desirelessness, there is a continuation of renewal of bliss with us as a receptor ... meaning that there is a separate person ... a receiver who feels blissful in the Oneness connectedness.

Connectedness is good but it is still separateness. A connected to B but not B. A is separate and B is separate.

The understanding by experiencing Oneness imparts the definitive wisdom of all being One no doubt but the state of so being restricted to the duration of the deep trance meditation when we are dissolved in the flow but even there as Oneness but not The Oneness in permanence.

So we emerge from the unified field back to the dualistic field wiser but not enabled.

I’ll be happy to get views from all who have so experienced Oneness and then plonked back into duality. How do we handle this oscillation?

***

Shivani Devi
20-06-2019, 11:40 AM
***

For those who have been so blessed to experience Oneness in deep meditation ... the question is that having merged our in-form consciousness with Oneness awareness in the boundless sea of bliss and absoluteness, why are we dissolved and yet distinct?

To be more specific, among other possible paths provided by the Universe, during in-form awakening when we as consciousness or energy move up along the spine to the crown and then dissolve in the flow to enter space into the Oneness field, we are one with Oneness and yet in as ordained, distinct. Of course, reverse Oneness experience also happens when the Universe Itself descends into form ... there being no here and there or coming or going in actuality. So we then know that energetically or let us say vibrationally, all is One. Yet the aspect of duality or separateness of our consciousness remains.

Theory being meaningless from the practical standpoint ... all the stuff about self & non-self, being and not being, observing vs witnessing and so on ... what we are saying is that in actual lived experience in the state of being flowing in the now continuum employing intuition rather than analysis (ego rested or disassociated) with a detached orientation of acceptance, fearlessness and desirelessness, there is a continuation of renewal of bliss with us as a receptor ... meaning that there is a separate person ... a receiver who feels blissful in the Oneness connectedness.

Connectedness is good but it is still separateness. A connected to B but not B. A is separate and B is separate.

The understanding by experiencing Oneness imparts the definitive wisdom of all being One no doubt but the state of so being restricted to the duration of the deep trance meditation when we are dissolved in the flow but even there as Oneness but not The Oneness in permanence.

So we emerge from the unified field back to the dualistic field wiser but not enabled.

I’ll be happy to get views from all who have so experienced Oneness and then plonked back into duality. How do we handle this oscillation?

***In the general experiential and perceptual concept(s) of existence, this is perhaps the most difficult concept for my limited brain to actualise and conceptualise.

In my attempts to do so, I have delved into Vishistadvaita or Achintya Bheda-Abheda Tattwa, or simply, qualified monism or qualified (quantifiable) non-duality...in which, the observer merges with Oneness, yet is still aware of the "Oneness" as distinct from the observer (even though it also includes it somehow).

I cannot think of any simple analogy that does this justice...even the "water drop vs ocean" doesn't do it, because the drop loses its "drop-ness" as soon as it merges with the ocean...but in the case of total Laya..in the case of full absorption into Brahman, Prakriti is still distinct from Purusha, even though, in reality, there IS no distinction...and yet there is. One may not be aware of that distinction during the experience, because the bliss, the ananda just overrides it...but as soon as perception comes back into play, as soon as we get our brain back to "think with" or even our heart back to "feel with"...there it is again, even though we know the separation is due to Maya (Indra's Net)...but it also isn't.

As you also rightly stated, this is how "God" (as we can only comprehend how a "God" can exist), is able to assume a human form...or a "Light Body" form...or anything He/She/It so desires, as to resonate with the vibration of individual consciousness (as distinct from itself as being the Universal Consciousness) so as to appear as a "familiar concept" to the mind on all three levels (the Gunas) and manage to transcend itself THROUGH itself.

In this way, there is no distinction between Jivatman and Paramatman even though there IS and no distinction between Brahman and Parabrahman even though there IS...and no distinction between Mahadeva (Maheshwara) and Sadashiva or Lingam, even though there IS...it is the concept itself which needs to be transcended through the actual concept...yet, even after transcendence...even after realisation, the concept still remains as both a concept, yet also that which is "non conceptual"...pretty weird that.

Even after Ramana Maharishi attained to Samadhi...even Nirvikalpa Samadhi, in which all concepts, all namam and roopam (names and forms) are lost to Satchitananda (existence-consciousness-bliss), Mt. Arunachala was still there...it never went anywhere, not did Ramana Maharishi lose his fondness for it as an aspect of Lord Shiva's Grace, which led him to experience the Samadhi in the first place...however, Arunachala would still be Arunachala, but not the same Arunachala, because the perception of it would have shifted:
"First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is".
https://tricycle.org/magazine/first-there-mountain-then-there-no-mountain/

This also depends on where consciousness resides in the body (or if it resides there at all) for it can be in one (or more) of each of the five sheaths, the pancha koshas simultaneously or independently...or the awareness may not even rest there at all..as evidenced by the second Shloka of Atma Shatakham written by Adi Shankaracharya:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.speakingtree.in/blog/adi-shankara-atma-shatakam/m-lite

When all is said and done, this is something that cannot really be spoken about, even though many try to do so...and get nowhere..or get plopped back into their thinking/reasoning mind with a "what the hell just happened to ME?" and then spend many lifetimes trying to figure it out...or chase that experience again, just for confirmation...or wonder if there is "more to it" instead of just accepting it as it IS...instead of just allowing it to happen through Grace...or on and of "its own accord" or whatever that case may be where there is no ego that is aware of where it was for the past *insert a time that doesn't exist here*.

Unseeking Seeker
20-06-2019, 12:04 PM
***

Love you Shivani but there is no safety in numbers (pun intended) since we are One ! LOL

Until light dawns, we sing this tune (reproduced from the poetry section)

Looking within at the turbidity
As gap between knowing & becoming
Even while flowing in the Divine stream with serenity
Patiently awaiting consciousness blossoming

The offered blessing as glimpse making clear our trajectory
To unify our consciousness with Oneness awareness in permanence
Hence recognising, recalling but distanced from memory drawn imagery
Viewing oscillation of our presence as playful whim of Divine dalliance

Yet having been and so seen the subtler
Divine entwined, love enabled, magnetism within in alignment
How may we not be discontent when immersed in domains grosser
Our seeking being unseeking we desire permanent enablement

As an identityless presence
One with Oneness
In permanence

***

Shivani Devi
20-06-2019, 12:24 PM
***

Love you Shivani but there is no safety in numbers (pun intended) since we are One ! LOL

Until light dawns, we sing this tune (reproduced from the poetry section)

Looking within at the turbidity
As gap between knowing & becoming
Even while flowing in the Divine stream with serenity
Patiently awaiting consciousness blossoming

The offered blessing as glimpse making clear our trajectory
To unify our consciousness with Oneness awareness in permanence
Hence recognising, recalling but distanced from memory drawn imagery
Viewing oscillation of our presence as playful whim of Divine dalliance

Yet having been and so seen the subtler
Divine entwined, love enabled, magnetism within in alignment
How may we not be discontent when immersed in domains grosser
Our seeking being unseeking we desire permanent enablement

As an identityless presence
One with Oneness
In permanence

***Thank you and I love you also.

Even though few of us have experienced this melting into unity or "wholeness" (I have also been so blessed) it doesn't seem conducive (to me at least) to execute basic biological functions whilst remaining in this state, because awareness is being constantly bombarded for attention by the mind and body's instincts and requirements for basic survival...maybe there is some kind of skill involved to always notice that Brahman is the carrot cake..and Brahman is the carrot-cake eater...and at some level, we can still know this, we are fully aware of it...but when one is hungry, the attention focuses as to how a nice piece of carrot cake is going to temporarily satiate the hunger...yeah "eat now, Brahman bliss later...oh wait...there is no "now" and no "later" and no "you" and no "carrot cake" and not even "Brahman"...and then, one still just says "shut the hell up thinking mind and just talk to my stomach about all that". :D

In this way, even one who has experienced Oneness, or Nirvikalpa Samadhi can get plonked back into 3D immersion, due to Vasanas..due to all of the mental modifications of mind which are negated/mitigated through the practice of Yoga Chitta Vritti Nirodha and particularly, through the pratyahara (sensory withdrawal) stage of Patanjali's eightfold system...or something like that.

ImthatIm
20-06-2019, 03:02 PM
The sense I get of all this merging Oneness in my Being and expressing it through my human.

At present it seems the Heart center is where "I" need to operate from
expressing the Love energies.

So I say: "Love is my compass."
Of course Divine Innocent Love energy with childlike qualities
being the preferred state perfected.

Anything else seems beyond me at this point it time.

iamthat
20-06-2019, 07:57 PM
***For those who have been so blessed to experience Oneness in deep meditation ... the question is that having merged our in-form consciousness with Oneness awareness in the boundless sea of bliss and absoluteness, why are we dissolved and yet distinct?

Connectedness is good but it is still separateness. A connected to B but not B. A is separate and B is separate.

The understanding by experiencing Oneness imparts the definitive wisdom of all being One no doubt but the state of so being restricted to the duration of the deep trance meditation when we are dissolved in the flow but even there as Oneness but not The Oneness in permanence.

So we emerge from the unified field back to the dualistic field wiser but not enabled.

I’ll be happy to get views from all who have so experienced Oneness and then plonked back into duality. How do we handle this oscillation? ***

This supposes that the merging into Oneness is restricted to the duration of the meditation. In which case I suggest that this is not true merging into Oneness.

When we truly dissolve the identification with separation and enter the state of Oneness (which is our own natural state) then this state remains, whether we are sitting in meditation or living everyday life.

Yes, consciousness continues to function through individual mind/emotions/physical body which is distinct from other mind-bodies but Oneness is ever-present, pervading everything. It never goes away. The body is just a vehicle moving within an infinite ocean of Oneness.

Peace.

TerramineLightvoid
20-06-2019, 08:52 PM
There is 2 sides to merging with Cosmic Consciousness, based on the 2 halves of Zen. Zanshin and Mushin. Depending on which one is predominant. OP is describing Mushin dominant Oneness. It is where Ego Death becomes fore front and you lose yourself passively in the all consuming higher force that you are connected with.

But Meditation is not, contrary to popular belief, exclusively a Passive endeavor. Mushin Meditation is the common perception of meditation, to just sit still and clear one's mind. But Zanshin Meditation is actually most sought after in the East, as it is Active Meditation is how one achieves Meditation even while moving or enacting some form of action.

It's also the way to bring Oneness into being centered on your own independent Ego. You connect with God or whatever higher force, to hand over control as you enact your mission. Losing dependence on conscious thought, allowing all action to become automatic and without hesitation.

Shivani Devi
20-06-2019, 09:12 PM
There is 2 sides to merging with Cosmic Consciousness, based on the 2 halves of Zen. Zanshin and Mushin. Depending on which one is predominant. OP is describing Mushin dominant Oneness. It is where Ego Death becomes fore front and you lose yourself passively in the all consuming higher force that you are connected with.

But Meditation is not, contrary to popular belief, exclusively a Passive endeavor. Mushin Meditation is the common perception of meditation, to just sit still and clear one's mind. But Zanshin Meditation is actually most sought after in the East, as it is Active Meditation is how one achieves Meditation even while moving or enacting some form of action.

It's also the way to bring Oneness into being centered on your own independent Ego. You connect with God or whatever higher force, to hand over control as you enact your mission. Losing dependence on conscious thought, allowing all action to become automatic and without hesitation.
This is indeed correct.

In the Hindu tradition, it is also the same thing.

There are three types of Samadhi or "merging with Oneness" which is based upon the interaction or participation of Ego within the conceptual realisation.

There is Savikalpa Samadhi, which is concept dependent, like the trance states or rapture one experiences with Deity worship, there is Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which transcends limited concepts into a merging independent of any "subject" or "object" which is also akin to the Ego Death, and there is Sahaja Samadhi, in which the Nirvikalpa state can be realised even in active consciousness, without the requirement for any formal meditative practice...thus, it becomes effortless (Sahaja)...the Buddhist tradition calls this Wu Wei Wu (doing not doing).

In the first two cases of Samadhi, the Ego can still be present or assert itself from time to time, so even though the Ego may be "dead", it can still return occasionally as a ghost to haunt one...in the case of Sahaja Samadhi, all that is dispensed with.

After one attains Nirvikalpa Samadhi, they realise that even this is not the end of the road and modifications still need to be made to the practice, to secure oneself in that state under any and all duress....this is also where myself, and many others are up to in their Spiritual journey.

TerramineLightvoid
21-06-2019, 01:42 AM
This is indeed correct.

In the Hindu tradition, it is also the same thing.

There are three types of Samadhi or "merging with Oneness" which is based upon the interaction or participation of Ego within the conceptual realisation.

There is Savikalpa Samadhi, which is concept dependent, like the trance states or rapture one experiences with Deity worship, there is Nirvikalpa Samadhi, which transcends limited concepts into a merging independent of any "subject" or "object" which is also akin to the Ego Death, and there is Sahaja Samadhi, in which the Nirvikalpa state can be realised even in active consciousness, without the requirement for any formal meditative practice...thus, it becomes effortless (Sahaja)...the Buddhist tradition calls this Wu Wei Wu (doing not doing).

In the first two cases of Samadhi, the Ego can still be present or assert itself from time to time, so even though the Ego may be "dead", it can still return occasionally as a ghost to haunt one...in the case of Sahaja Samadhi, all that is dispensed with.

After one attains Nirvikalpa Samadhi, they realise that even this is not the end of the road and modifications still need to be made to the practice, to secure oneself in that state under any and all duress....this is also where myself, and many others are up to in their Spiritual journey.
I mean I don't think either path is invalid. I think everyone is meant to be either more inclined to the Passive path, or more inclined towards the Active path. I am naturally geared towards the Active. I aim to become so one with Zen that I am unbeatable in all that I do.

Doubtful but... gotta dream big lol

Unseeking Seeker
21-06-2019, 01:48 AM
***

As an analogy we may look at it as sugar dissolving homogeneously in a container of water, becoming one with it in totality and then through distillation being restored to original form.

The knowing by experiencing then as such is not the becoming in permanence.

What may such a sugar crystal tell another?

***

Unseeking Seeker
21-06-2019, 01:54 AM
This supposes that the merging into Oneness is restricted to the duration of the meditation. In which case I suggest that this is not true merging into Oneness.

When we truly dissolve the identification with separation and enter the state of Oneness (which is our own natural state) then this state remains, whether we are sitting in meditation or living everyday life.

Yes, consciousness continues to function through individual mind/emotions/physical body which is distinct from other mind-bodies but Oneness is ever-present, pervading everything. It never goes away. The body is just a vehicle moving within an infinite ocean of Oneness.

Peace.

***

What we bring back is the essence of the totality and yet when in duality the ‘knowingness’ is not the ‘undiluted being-ness’

There is a consciousness shift which signals that whilst we know we are yet adrift.

***

ActualityOfBeing
21-06-2019, 02:35 AM
There is only One, forgetting itself and dreaming. Everything you see & hear is the dream, the seeing & hearing are dream, the body and mind are dream. You, however, are directly The One. The knower of seeing & hearing, the love, the intelligence, the good (conscience), that’s directly you. You create a dream of “things”, and once “in” the dream, via the mind, relatively speaking, you are nothing. But nothing is magic. Everything you see & hear is magic, the seeing & hearing is magic, the experience is quite literally magic - you.

So to your inquiry regarding the apparent back & forth between deep meditation states and the loss of it in the activities of the functioning world...they are not the least bit different. Like trees arise front the ground, thought arises from nothing, magic. For you a tree is a tree, not to be believed or not, not to direct you or not. But thoughts appear quite different than trees, and in believing some thoughts and not others, you create an idea of an identity. This “identity” can never be located, isolated, or even described by any account of your own direct experience, because it is an idea. This “self” idea is only ever described or referred to via more ideas, never a direct experience of it. The belief in this idea of you is so convincing, decisions are made regarding what you can & can’t do in this life, what you are capable of or not, what you can achieve or not, etc.

That you do not know who you are, that you believe there are things, is actually a testimony to just how unfathomably magic you actually are.

Unseeking Seeker
04-07-2019, 05:37 AM
***

Hiranyagarbha ... the One splits into two
The two merge to fuse as One
Duality to Nonduality and back like a pulse
The vibration of movement aliveness

***

Miss Hepburn
04-07-2019, 02:42 PM
There is only One, forgetting itself and dreaming. Everything you see & hear is the dream, the seeing & hearing are dream, the body and mind are dream. You, however, are directly The One. The knower of seeing & hearing, the love, the intelligence, the good (conscience), that’s directly you. You create a dream of “things”, and once “in” the dream, via the mind, relatively speaking, you are nothing. But nothing is magic. Everything you see & hear is magic, the seeing & hearing is magic, the experience is quite literally magic - you.

So to your inquiry regarding the apparent back & forth between deep meditation states and the loss of it in the activities of the functioning world...they are not the least bit different. Like trees arise front the ground, thought arises from nothing, magic. For you a tree is a tree, not to be believed or not, not to direct you or not. But thoughts appear quite different than trees, and in believing some thoughts and not others, you create an idea of an identity. This “identity” can never be located, isolated, or even described by any account of your own direct experience, because it is an idea. This “self” idea is only ever described or referred to via more ideas, never a direct experience of it. The belief in this idea of you is so convincing, decisions are made regarding what you can & can’t do in this life, what you are capable of or not, what you can achieve or not, etc.

That you do not know who you are, that you believe there are things, is actually a testimony to just how unfathomably magic you actually are.:smile: Welcome here!!!!!

FallingLeaves
05-07-2019, 12:36 AM
***

Hiranyagarbha ... the One splits into two
The two merge to fuse as One
Duality to Nonduality and back like a pulse
The vibration of movement aliveness

***

the problem is it either takes a lot of effort (which sometimes evidences in these circles as going to a lot of effort to learn to not go to any effort) or it takes divine help to go from two back to one. Because by default our desire is to go from one to two to three and then on to all sorts of things... (ch 42 of the Tao Te Ching)

Unseeking Seeker
05-07-2019, 03:33 AM
the problem is it either takes a lot of effort (which sometimes evidences in these circles as going to a lot of effort to learn to not go to any effort) or it takes divine help to go from two back to one. Because by default our desire is to go from one to two to three and then on to all sorts of things... (ch 42 of the Tao Te Ching)

***

No doer and so no effort.

We just be in sync with the Divine pulse.

The union, ignition in unending continuation, the separation for assimilation and then re-fusion.

***

Miss Hepburn
09-07-2019, 04:53 PM
The Oneness enigma....when I raise my arm....does it effect a butterfly in China?
Are consciousness and air like water? Like when a fish is in distress it's felt by all others?
Or when a tree falls in the forest and no one is there ...is your husband still wrong?
:biggrin:

God-Like
10-07-2019, 07:14 AM
The Oneness enigma....when I raise my arm....does it effect a butterfly in China?
Are consciousness and air like water? Like when a fish is in distress it's felt by all others?
Or when a tree falls in the forest and no one is there ...is your husband still wrong?
:biggrin:



This is the beauty of individuality


x daz x

davidsun
29-07-2019, 10:25 PM
Theory being meaningless from the practical standpoint ... all the stuff about self & non-self, being and not being, observing vs witnessing, knowing what is not to know what is and so on ... what we are saying is that in actual lived experience in the state of being flowing in the now continuum employing intuition rather than analysis (ego rested or disassociated) with a detached orientation of acceptance, fearlessness and desirelessness, there is a continuation of renewal of bliss with us as a receptor ... meaning that there is a separate person ... a receiver who feels blissful in the Oneness connectedness.

Connectedness is good but it is still separateness. A connected to B but not B. A is separate and B is separate.

The understanding by experiencing Oneness imparts the definitive wisdom of all being One no doubt but the state of so being restricted to the duration of the deep trance meditation when we are dissolved in the flow but even there as Oneness but not The Oneness in permanence.

So we emerge from the unified field back to the dualistic field wiser but not enabled.

I’ll be happy to get views from all who have so experienced Oneness and then plonked back into duality. How do we handle this oscillation?
No resolution is possible if you 'frame' the issue that way - in terms of 'connection' of 'separate' states of being.

The conceptual abstraction that oneness is non-duality, a state of being that is 'other' than the state of duality, is itself the source' of the insolubility of 'the problem' you are encountering/experiencing, IMO.

There is only One Being-Doing, which all apparently 'separate' experiences and expressions are integral (therefore never really 'separate) aspects of.

The 'problem' may (must?) be resolved the same way that bi-ocular vision is resolved ... by knowing - thinking, feeling, seeing, believing - that what is 'seen' or 'known' by the 'local' self or 'being' (i.e. the 'left' eye, ) is the same thang that is 'seen' or 'known' by universal Self or Being (i.e. the 'right' eye) - that it is just perceived or experienced from (or via) a different 'angle'.

'Polarities' or 'opposites' are always connected - just being 'two' 'sides' of the same 'single' 'coin'.

My guess is and so I would suggest that the problem is that you are living (too much?) just 'in' your 'head' - (seeing things by way of 'detached', from-a-location, 'vision'), and so fall out of 'synch' with your 'heart' (which feels things by way of emotional energy-resonance) - like being able to feel and so feeling one's lover's 'orgasm' at the same time as you feel your 'own'.

Here is an excerpt from my treatise (https://davidsundom.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/6/5/7765474/what_jesus_meant_ds.pd) which, though it wasn't written with 'the problem' you pose in mind, may help you to find/arrive at/implement 'the solution'. I hope it at least gives you some ideas which you may profitably apply in that 'direction':

Any and every soul’s developmental ‘journey’ merits ongoing introspective review and reevaluation and, when and where appropriate, the refinement – this is what conscious evolution is all about! – not just of the ‘content’ of what one personally thinks, feels, believes and does in relation to others and Life‑at‑Large, but also of the ‘significance’ one places on and so ‘ascribes’ to one’s self and other selves, in your case the very ‘self’ that thinks, feels, believes and does so. To possibly help expedite such process, here’s a discussion of some often overlooked (because of ‘innocent’ ignorance) but just about as often (for personal expediency) swept under the rug details and issues which, when and as overlooked and/or ignored, often result in folks who don’t yet fully grok what actually happens when a soul transcends selfhood (by whole-mind-n-heart-edly acknowledging and embracing the fact that it and others are integral aspects of The Entity of Life’s, i.e. of Christ’s, Being-n-Doing) being bamboozled by as well as bamboozling others.

For one thing, one’s selfhood doesn’t then just evaporate into insubstantiality or dissolve into inconsequentiality as many have historically, apparently self-effacingly and seemingly humbly, for supposedly unselfish reasons, self-deludingly imagined and other-misleadingly proclaimed. Take the words of anyone who speaks, preaches, or acts in ways which imply that he or she (or his or her ‘kind’) is so self-abnegating as to therefore be especially holy and (so) especially worthy of devotion, reverence, obedience, generosity, etc. with a grain of salt. A posture of personal insignificance may indeed be adopted as a result of a person’s genuinely loving and enjoying and so wishing not to in any way detract from the glorious Magnificence and mind-boggling Grandeur of Life-at-Large, in contrast to which the gestalt of his or her present self as well as the gestalts of other selves may indeed appear – to him or her, that is – to be relatively unimportant. But obsequious, Cosmic Presence or Persona ‘adoring’ stances and corollary behaviors may also be consciously or unconsciously coat‑tail‑rider ‘gain’ motivated, and sometimes even downright wolves-in-sheep’s-clothing predatory in relation to unwitting others!

To put any self or other generated razzle-dazzle that may presently be interfering with your clearly seeing what’s really what in this regard into perspective, let me point to and emphasize the implications of the obvious fact that genuinely devoted husbands and wives – ‘lovers’ of all kinds, really! – recognize that their lives are far from being insignificant in relation to those they love and ‘espouse’. They live and act with consummate awareness of the fact, as well as experience and evince a certain degree of self-appreciation as a result of knowing, that their personal presence and relational engagement functionally complements and enriches their spouse’s lives in ways which they could not and would not be otherwise. This, even as they acknowledge and are deeply grateful for the fact that their own lives are also complemented and enriched in ways that they otherwise would not be by virtue of their having been ‘espoused’ (as a self) themselves. Similarly, Cosmically ‘awakened’ souls continue to live and make choices as personally response-able, choice‑implementing selves who are well worth every ‘bit’ of their ‘salt’, albeit they do so so ‘sacrally’, without putting themselves on any kind of ‘pedestal’, knowing that they are vital components of Life’s Grand Being‑n‑Doing, in other words knowing that they are Love and Joy experiencing and expressing ‘buds’, ‘leaves’, ‘flowers’ and potentially ‘seed’ bearing ‘fruit’ on ‘the Tree’ of Life Itself!

I hope this helps.

ImthatIm
30-07-2019, 12:18 AM
We once were a cloud and then we fell
as rain and know we BE the puddle
with the knowing of the Light which
shall transcend us once more.
With Joy in all, cloud to puddle to evaporation.

******
)):icon_sunny:((
^^^^^

Unseeking Seeker
30-07-2019, 03:05 AM
***

Thanks David & ImthatIm!

Being and so in definitiveness knowing

Yet involuntarily oscillating so recognising that the knowing while in the being-ness is a becoming as opposed to memory associated recollecting

Tasting the sugar and so knowing the taste being not the continuum of the being-ness savouring the taste in continuance

Grace being love, a blessing bestowed by the choice of the bestower and the paradox of both lovers being actually one holds no water once the one choicelessly chooses to split into two to pour Itself into Itself ... for then, having so granted & created the other aspect, love being love must necessarily fuse together by free will alone. Unforced.

In other words, simply stated, we cannot snap our fingers and recreate the magic. We cannot because we as separateness are not. And yet we are.

Or we may say, as oscillations slow down ... when resonance of us as a separate consciousness is in flawless alignment with the singular oneness vibration, breaths and heartbeats in synchronous rhythm, we be to become in the flow ... as one. A regular pulse.

As an analogy of a lived reality of being-ness, a continuum of enlivened bliss as in a peaked climax of ecstasy unending is a flowing renewal embraced, imbibed & assimilated as a permanent embodiment of being-ness for many among us, irrespective of happenings in the external. Yet when it comes to pristine awareness in oneness within the vibrant void of Absoluteness we may and do, being and acting as one with oneness, interact with oneness as separateness, though in ‘as oneness’ Itself.

For example, to be more specific, within our dissolved yet distinct oneness state, we may seek healing for someone albeit now from the fulcrum of the Absolute oneness understanding whereupon our request though granted instantly no sooner it is uttered may yet be held back by us (as one) if it interferes with soul development or prior arrangements of the beneficiary so chosen.

So we may well ask, ‘what’s the problem then?’ :smile:

None at all!

Stretch & yawn and move on!

***

Unseeking Seeker
01-08-2019, 03:30 AM
***

Copied from another section on SF ...

Within the vibrant void of seeming nothingness
There is an enigmatic fullness in emptiness
All encompassing compassion in omnipresence
Pure awareness fully present in innocence

Beyond time & space and even though we do not resist
We automatically exit
Descending back to duality
A little wiser yet without the enableability
For an any time all time seamless connectivity
In continuity

Still resting thought we remain in stillness
The questioner receding in our motionlessness
What matters it if we be in a dream within a dream ad infinitum
As long as we be divine entwined in an unbroken continuum

***

Legrand
03-08-2019, 02:11 PM
*******

I,
This vortex between the Absolute and one form of Its manifestations,
Anchored deeply with no center in the Absolute as my ground,
Is really fascinated in understanding why the Absolute chosen to manifest Itself.

I,
Will change forms of vortex,
Lives after deaths,
To try to understand,
In all the colors of a rainbow,
Why the Absolute felt the need of such an impulse to manifest Itself.

*******

davidsun
03-08-2019, 02:43 PM
*******

I,
This vortex between the Absolute and one form of Its manifestations,
Anchored deeply with no center in the Absolute as my ground,
Is really fascinated in understanding why the Absolute chosen to manifest Itself.

I,
Will change forms of vortex,
Lives after deaths,
To try to understand,
In all the colors of a rainbow,
Why the Absolute felt the need of such an impulse to manifest Itself.

*******
Soul-touching poem, Legrand - I posted this elsewhere but reshare it here because I think it (albeit just speculatively) eloquently 'speaks to' your expressed wish to understand Why?

Creation Hymn from the Rig Veda
Before the creation of this universe,
There was neither being nor not-being,
Neither sky nor the heavens beyond...
There was only water unfathomably deep.

There was neither death nor immortality,
Nor demarcation between night and day,
That One alone breathed in its own bliss,
And by its own power, in spite of the absolute vacuum.
Nothing else was there.

In the beginning there was darkness everywhere,
Enveloping the waters.
All that existed was void and formless.
Then, by the power of thought alone,
That One gave birth to itself.

The first born was the Creative Energy,
The primordial seed of the mind.
It is through this energy that seers,
After long searching in the inmost chambers of their hearts,
Discovered the Supreme Spirit
Which joins the seen with the unseen.

This self-shining Spirit was everywhere,
In and through the universe; above and below it.
Primal seeds were sprouting, mighty forces moving,
Pulsation below, pure energy above.

Who here knows? Who can say for sure?
When it began and from where it came -- this creation?...
He who watches everything from the highest heaven,
Only He knows -- or perhaps even He does not know!

- Translated by Mark Mason, from Chapter 18 of his book
In Search of the Loving God.


the above was copied from:
http://markmason.net/chchoice.htm

More good stuff references on that page. Lots more on Mark Mason's website.

Personally, I think the answer why is obvious - to experience Itself by way of expressing Itself as 'everything' - just sitting around being-n-doing 'nothing' just results in zilch! :biggrin:

Love/Joy that does not 'act' (hence 'live' as Life!) might as well be 'dead'!:icon_eek:

Legrand
03-08-2019, 03:58 PM
Soul-touching poem, Legrand - I posted this elsewhere but reshare it here because I think it (albeit just speculatively) eloquently 'speaks to' your expressed wish to understand Why?



Personally, I think the answer why is obvious - to experience Itself by way of expressing Itself as 'everything' - just sitting around being-n-doing 'nothing' just results in zilch! :biggrin:

Love/Joy that does not 'act' (hence 'live' as Life!) might as well be 'dead'!:icon_eek:

Hello davidsun,

Even if its a quote, its the best post I've read from you from the few post I've read.

This is a belief from my part, as long that the manifestation fully understands as a all why it exist in front of the Absolute, that life is to be enjoyed in its every details.

Enjoy!

davidsun
03-08-2019, 04:20 PM
Hello davidsun,

Even if its a quote, its the best post I've read from you from the few post I've read.

This is a belief from my part, as long that the manifestation fully understands as a all why it exist in front of the Absolute, that life is to be enjoyed in its every details.

Enjoy!
Woohoo! :hug3:

Dan_SF
03-08-2019, 07:12 PM
@Op:

If seen truly, the onenes is not an Enigma at all.

Even in this Body it is understandable and explainable.

You see, in this body when you sleep, you have dreams.

In a dream, there can be 1 person, 2, 3 or 3 0000 0000.

And it is you, who is acting them all.

When Adam fell asleep ... well you can say that he must have had nighmares, because the eve, in his dream, was ripped out of his rib.

Is it an enigma, that all this dual life is but a dream of one asleep spirit part ?

Unseeking Seeker
04-08-2019, 05:11 AM
@Op:

If seen truly, the onenes is not an Enigma at all.

Even in this Body it is understandable and explainable.

You see, in this body when you sleep, you have dreams.

In a dream, there can be 1 person, 2, 3 or 3 0000 0000.

And it is you, who is acting them all.

When Adam fell asleep ... well you can say that he must have had nighmares, because the eve, in his dream, was ripped out of his rib.

Is it an enigma, that all this dual life is but a dream of one asleep spirit part ?

***

Each dream stands alone every time with no continuity whilst earth life progresses moment to moment sequentially

***

davidsun
04-08-2019, 02:10 PM
***

Each dream stands alone every time with no continuity whilst earth life progresses moment to moment sequentially

***
Reminds me of my mind being boggled :biggrin: when I took a college course in 'Matrix Algebra' (might as well have been in 'abracadabra'! :biggrin: ) ... the idea of each 'point' in a matrix being thought of as the 'tip' of a 'vector' - a three-by-three matrix (representing what we think of a 'space') thus being 'constituted' by three-dimensional vectors, for instance. The point where my mind got completely boggled was trying to conceptually imagine an infinite-dimensional matrix (of course, composed of infinite-dimensional 'vectors'!.

Your portrayal :D of dreams being points (vector-'points') in the context of an infinite past-present-future universes-woven-together-with-infinite-parallel-universes 'fabric' is a more conceivable mind-boggle (for me) - I suppose, 'cuz I am a visually oriented fella!

Whooieeee - Seeing Seeker! :rolleyes:

Dan_SF
09-08-2019, 02:26 PM
***

Each dream stands alone every time with no continuity whilst earth life progresses moment to moment sequentially

***

Right, the earth is contained in the dream i was talking about, along with every human mind.

Phaelyn
09-08-2019, 05:28 PM
In a dream, there can be 1 person, 2, 3 or 3 0000 0000.

And it is you, who is acting them all.

That's true in a way in real life too. There are other people existing physically, but how we experience them is created by us.

Dan_SF
09-08-2019, 05:46 PM
Yes, i'm referring to this "Real" life as a Dream.

Phaelyn
09-08-2019, 06:14 PM
Like the mental "world" we are normally interacting with only exists in our minds. It has no reality outside us, so it fits a dream definition. It is wholly self/mind created. When we die, no one else will have to deal with the stuff that was in our minds. The question is, can we stop dealing with it, stop relating with it, stop experiencing what it brings into our lives, while we are alive?

We leave our minds at death. Can we leave our minds while alive? Not leave what we are, leave what we are not. Then we experience oneness.

Legrand
09-08-2019, 07:14 PM
Yes, i'm referring to this "Real" life as a Dream.

If only we could all enjoy the dream :smile:

Unseeking Seeker
10-08-2019, 02:05 AM
***

The love omnipresent enlivening consciousness real
Hate conjured by delusion also real even if lacking in appeal
Words such as dream or reality ...
Do not carry the absolute validity of definitive certainty
Each known reality becomes an illusion at a higher vibration
Each illusion real for consciousness enmeshed therein in stagnation
Mental gymnastics for comprehension
By hypothetical imaginal extrapolation
Are but mind games of ego subject to its own interpretation
For fragmented thought is bound in limitation
And so cannot go beyond its limited domain of turbulence
Unless thoughts we rest and tune in within in innocence
So instead of definitions based on imagination
All that counts is direct seeing by self realisation
For which with Universal consciousness we need connection
Brought about effortlessly in prayerful meditation
Stilling movement in the realm external
We cognise Divine magnetism in the internal
That cognition is directly imbibed wisdom
Known when we stop the ego pendulum

So what is our story based upon direct knowing
Graced when we voluntarily choose all that is transient slowing
By disassociating our consciousness from form in innocence
From fears & desires and narrow impressions drawn by sentience
Duality is and so is separateness
Even within the vibrant void of singular absolute Oneness
Where we are dissolved yet distinct
Within the continuum pure awareness in our pristine element
Immersed in the boundless sea of Divine Love pulsation
We are therein as He in Absoluteness without dilution
Upon return to bodily form
Euphoric from the osmotic tingling of love magnetism warm
Like it or not we are in duality
As above so below this seems to be the reality
So to be truthful
Even if not conformist or fashionable
We replace the concept of Oneness
With interconnectedness

As for dreams within dreams ... what are we doing therein
Are we blown like a leaf in the squall or still & sanguine

***

davidsun
16-08-2019, 12:15 PM
Within the continuum pure awareness in our pristine element
Immersed in the boundless sea of Divine Love pulsation
We are therein as He in Absoluteness without dilution
Upon return to bodily form
Euphoric from the osmotic tingling of love magnetism warm
Like it or not we are in duality
As above so below this seems to be the reality
So to be truthful
Even if not conformist or fashionable
We replace the concept of Oneness
With interconnectedness

Quoting from a write up of a video the-relative-is-the-absolute which is presented at https://www.scienceandnonduality.com :

"Caverly Morgan reminds us that it's easy to dismiss injustice, bias and cruelty in the name of transcendence, and asks us to consider whether our habit is to think of the awakened life as mine to have rather than ours to live.

When we engage in the distortion that the relative plane is separate from the absolute – that it is something to transcend or ‘just an illusion’ – we ignore the reality of the illusion. What it is the illusion comprised of? How is it known? And by whom? The relative may appear to arise out of the absolute, as waves appear to arise out of the ocean, but like waves, both relative and absolute are components of a greater whole. They are not separate. When we know ourselves as this whole which subsumes everything, we cease to diminish or dismiss the mystery of being human. We experience viscerally that “the world is my family”. From this understanding, we recognize that liberation is not a singular experience. There can be no individual ego that experiences enlightenment. We suffer when we forget that. We suffer when we perceive ourselves as separate from the collective – on the level of consciousness, (the absolute) as well as with our neighbor (the relative). When we recognize that the world is arising in us, Awareness, there is nothing to dismiss. How, then, in our situation of privilege on the relative plane, do we dismiss injustice, bias, cruelty in the name of transcendence or ‘spiritual understanding’? How do we participate in systems of oppression while ignoring the effects our neighbor, as well as the whole? Do we fall for the story that the awakened life we seek is mine to have rather than ours to be? And what’s love got to do with it?"

Unseeking Seeker
16-08-2019, 01:21 PM
***

Good question David! The fabric of God oneness awareness is Divine Love. As such, in, as and one in the boundless sea of Love, there is no this or that, one or the other. All is one. Our distinct consciousness interconnected with Divine awareness. As Love. The colourations of Love ascending from bubbling joy to ineffable endless bliss to compassion and then purity.

It is said that beyond the domain of the mind, true oneness is a fact. As of now however, in a state of actuality it is interconnectedness.

The becoming being a happening is not something we can analyse. This is not to brush aside discussion prompted by curiosity but the parameters are not in the domain of fragmented thought.

About the suffering we see around us, delusion begets suffering arising from misalignment. Each soul is on its own journey. When identification with form & limitations cease, suffering is no more. Only witnessing.

***

davidsun
16-08-2019, 02:48 PM
***

Good question David! The fabric of God oneness awareness is Divine Love. As such, in, as and one in the boundless sea of Love, there is no this or that, one or the other. All is one. Our distinct consciousness interconnected with Divine awareness. As Love. The colourations of Love ascending from bubbling joy to ineffable endless bliss to compassion and then purity.

It is said that beyond the domain of the mind, true oneness is a fact. As of now however, in a state of actuality it is interconnectedness.

The becoming being a happening is not something we can analyse. This is not to brush aside discussion prompted by curiosity but the parameters are not in the domain of fragmented thought.

About the suffering we see around us, delusion begets suffering arising from misalignment. Each soul is on its own journey. When identification with form & limitations cease, suffering is no more. Only witnessing.

***
Well said Seeing Seeker - BUT form and limitations are (always!!!!) functionally necessary for there to be any 'wind' and 'waves' whereby and wherewith to 'sail' and 'surf' the 'river-ocean' of Life. Think of a dog with its head out a car window, jowls and ears flapping in the wind, nose-smelling and eye-delighting in looking at everything that whizzes by!

The idea of the cessation of form and limitation as well as the value of such 'cessation' being desirable betrays a discomfort with (and IMO a desire to 'escape' from (get 'out' of?, 'eliminate? extinguish?) 'duality' - which is the FLOW-PLAY of LIFE Itself).

Only 'witnessing' is a mental 'male' 'dream' of being emotionally impregnable. Tut, tut. The richness of LIFE lies in the 'female' embrace/acceptance/devotional giving/and celebration of vulnerability - yah can't 'surf' if you ain't willing to 'risk' the occasional 'dunk' and 'glub glub', Bro. This is the 'achilles heel' of all 'male' driven forms :D of "Spirituality", IMO. Purity-smurity, I say! Life amounts to nothing if one doesn't 'git down and boogey' (with IT!).

You strike me as still being 'stuck' (to a certain extent at least) in a 'bad' (in ways) 'dream', therefor.

Unseeking Seeker
16-08-2019, 03:21 PM
Well said Seeing Seeker - BUT form and limitations are (always!!!!) functionally necessary for there to be any 'wind' and 'waves' whereby and wherewith to 'sail' and 'surf' the 'river-ocean' of Life. Think of a dog with its head out a car window, jowls and ears flapping in the wind, nose-smelling and eye-delighting in looking at everything that whizzes by!

The idea of the cessation of form and limitation as well as the value of such 'cessation' being desirable betrays a discomfort with (and IMO a desire to 'escape' from (get 'out' of?, 'eliminate? extinguish?) 'duality' - which is the FLOW-PLAY of LIFE Itself).

Only 'witnessing' is a mental 'male' 'dream' of being emotionally impregnable. Tut, tut. The richness of LIFE lies in the 'female' embrace/acceptance/devotional giving/and celebration of vulnerability - yah can't 'surf' if you ain't willing to 'risk' the occasional 'dunk' and 'glub glub', Bro. This is the 'achilles heel' of all 'male' driven forms :D of "Spirituality", IMO. Purity-smurity, I say! Life amounts to nothing if one doesn't 'git down and boogey' (with IT!).

You strike me as still being 'stuck' (to a certain extent at least) in a 'bad' (in ways) 'dream', therefor.

***

Maybe. Maybe not. :smile:

***

davidsun
16-08-2019, 03:28 PM
***

Maybe. Maybe not. :smile:

***
I can only go on how the ideas your words endorse come across to me. I do not see/sense you as being totally 'stuck', btw, just as holding on to some regressive (IMO) ideas in relation to what I personally see as being 'the way' of Life's Flow.

Unseeking Seeker
16-08-2019, 03:39 PM
***

David, the moment we speak of an idea ... what is it but thought? What is the source of thought other than drawn from memory based on perception of experience invariably in repetitive patterned grooves of stagnation?

There are many layers in letting go ... in unconditioning. Also, it cannot be computed for who computes and on what basis?

So how do we proceed if it is a catch22 situation? Disassociation with all that is ephemeral and hence unreliable. Which is ... all thought, all imagery, all beliefs based upon memory ... everything must go.

What remains? Presence of innocence.

How may it be defined? (Do we hear uncontrollable laughter? :D )

Stillness & silence.

To what end? A divine connection leading to transcendence or quantum jump in consciousness. An explosion within. When all questions cease.

***

davidsun
16-08-2019, 04:18 PM
So how do we proceed if it is a catch22 situation? Disassociation with all that is ephemeral and hence unreliable. Which is ... all thought, all imagery, all beliefs based upon memory ... everything must go.

What remains?

What 'remains' is the mind-n-spirit 'entity' that sprang from what was into what is - which is your (soul's) present point in THE FLOW of CREATION.

To what end? A divine connection leading to transcendence or quantum jump in consciousness. An explosion within.
There is NO 'end'! Your next LIFE-FLOW 'move' is to wherever you decide/choose or feel 'impelled' to 'go'.

When all questions cease.
There's that seductive 'cessation'-wish boondoggle, again!

One day - maybe! - you will 'wake up' from that 'bad' (IMO), because it looks to actualize for something that's actually impossible, 'dream'.

You'll get no 'comfort' from me on that score, fellow-being-n-doing.

Unseeking Seeker
16-08-2019, 04:21 PM
***

So be it then David

***

davidsun
16-08-2019, 04:31 PM
One day - maybe! - you will 'wake up' from that 'bad' (IMO), because it looks to actualize for something that's actually impossible, 'dream'.
Oops, let me qualify that - there is one way such possibility may be actualized (the way I see Life flowing, that is):

The short version of ‘the full story’ is that, with the benefit of having both (‘unsuccessful’ and ‘successful’) kinds of experiences, souls may incrementally become aware of the ins and outs of the multivarious kinds of liabilities that attend ‘petty’ selfishness and (so) in due course choose as well as ultimately manage to transcend any and all selfish-‘i’dentity based inclinations, such that they eventually become fully functionally capable of and completely devoted to optimizing and augmenting The Entity of Life’s Love and Joy Flow (beyond the scope of their ‘own’ selfish one) and from then on live in a state of ‘at oneness’ (i.e. in conjunction) with said ever‑ongoing process forever (i.e. ‘eternally’) thereafter. The alternative possibility in this ‘ultimate’ regard, of course, being that souls may completely capital ‘F’(!) Fail to do and be so.

The latter possibility derives from the fact that, if and as a soul reacts, as all selfish-ego ensconced (hence ‘immature’ in psychospiritual terms) souls are prone to at least sometimes do, to the frustration(s) and disappointment(s) of personal wishes, hopes, and expectations by becoming even more selfish-gratification oriented (the idea that Life presents us with a series of ‘tests’ which we may either ‘pass’ or ‘fail’ pertains here), and if such all too human reactional tendency isn’t somehow ‘disarmed’ and ‘neutralized’, such that a soul persists in becoming more so, it may eventually become so mentally and emotionally ‘i’solated in the ‘bubble’ of its own ‘petty’ selfishness that whatever inclination and capacity it may have had to experience and express Love and Joy in relation to and with others shrinks and shrivels (i.e. devolves) to the point where it finally becomes completely unloving and unjoyful in relation to Life. What then ‘happens’ (since the Essence of Life is Love and Joy and that is what our Entity is actually the living expression of) is that such soul just ‘blinks out’ and ‘vanishes’ as a psychospiritual pattern (or ‘entity’) from the ‘field’ of Life and therefore completely ‘loses’ the possibility of ever incarnating again as a unit. There is no Love and Joy ‘kernel’ left which can then possibly (re)incarnate and thereby learn and ‘grow’ to the point where it nodally integrates with and thereafter ‘eternally’ lives on as a full-fledged ‘member’ of the ‘Body’ of Life.

Based on what you have shared here, I can't even begin to imagine that that could/would ever be your 'fate', however.
:hug:

Unseeking Seeker
16-08-2019, 04:50 PM
***

David, what may conjecturally happen to me or you or anyone in as imagined is not pertinent.

The crux is this : there are no mistakes, only experiences. There is no selfishness or negativity ... only temporary misalignment. In this context you may like to read a channelled session of Buddha by Vijay Mehra right here on SF. Let me see if I can dig it out for you ... ah! Here it is ... http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128587

It answers most questions we all tend to ask, which resonate if besides asking we also seek.

***

davidsun
16-08-2019, 05:11 PM
***

David, what may conjecturally happen to me or you or anyone in as imagined is not pertinent.

The crux is this : there are no mistakes, only experiences. There is no selfishness or negativity ... only temporary misalignment. In this context you may like to read a channelled session of Buddha by Vijay Mehra right here on SF. Let me see if I can dig it out for you ... ah! Here it is ... http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128587

It answers most questions we all tend to ask, which resonate if besides asking we also seek.

***
Whatever floats your boat, Bro, go for it!

Phaelyn
16-08-2019, 06:35 PM
all thought, all imagery, all beliefs based upon memory ... everything must go.

One could also say, nothing needs to go. Something needs to appear.

BigJohn
16-08-2019, 07:20 PM
***

David, the moment we speak of an idea ... what is it but thought? What is the source of thought other than drawn from memory based on perception of experience invariably in repetitive patterned grooves of stagnation?

There are many layers in letting go ... in unconditioning. Also, it cannot be computed for who computes and on what basis?

So how do we proceed if it is a catch22 situation? Disassociation with all that is ephemeral and hence unreliable. Which is ... all thought, all imagery, all beliefs based upon memory ... everything must go.

What remains? Presence of innocence.

How may it be defined? (Do we hear uncontrollable laughter? :D )

Stillness & silence.

To what end? A divine connection leading to transcendence or quantum jump in consciousness. An explosion within. When all questions cease.

***

Sounds like you are talking about Animism.

davidsun
16-08-2019, 08:27 PM
One could also say, nothing needs to go. Something needs to appear.
You mean like:

To what end? A divine connection leading to transcendence or quantum jump in consciousness. An explosion within. When all questions cease.
Maybe minus the cease part ... my 'sense' is that curiosity (what am I not yet seeing?) is a vital aspect Life (a/k/a Life) which leads to 'new' Syntheses being made and (therefore and thereby) 'new' Creations appearing. :smile:

'New' just meaning previously unknown.

BigJohn
16-08-2019, 10:10 PM
[QUOTE=Unseeking Seeker]***

David, what may conjecturally happen to me or you or anyone in as imagined is not pertinent.

The crux is this : there are no mistakes, only experiences. There is no selfishness or negativity ... only temporary misalignment. In this context you may like to read a channelled session of Buddha by Vijay Mehra right here on SF. Let me see if I can dig it out for you ... ah! Here it is ... http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=128587

It answers most questions we all tend to ask, which resonate if besides asking we also seek./QUOTE]



I agree except that of temporary misalignment.


When we say a temporary misalignment we are feeding into negativity
which you already says does not exist.

utopiandreamchild
17-08-2019, 12:34 AM
***

For those who have been so blessed to experience Oneness in deep meditation ... the question is that having merged our in-form consciousness with Oneness awareness in the boundless sea of bliss and absoluteness, why are we dissolved and yet distinct?

To be more specific, among other possible paths provided by the Universe, during in-form awakening when we as consciousness or energy move up along the spine to the crown and then dissolve in the flow to enter space into the Oneness field, we are one with Oneness and yet in as ordained, distinct. Of course, reverse Oneness experience also happens when the Universe Itself descends into form ... there being no here and there or coming or going in actuality. So we then know that energetically or let us say vibrationally, all is One. Yet the aspect of duality or separateness of our consciousness remains.

Theory being meaningless from the practical standpoint ... all the stuff about self & non-self, being and not being, observing vs witnessing, knowing what is not to know what is and so on ... what we are saying is that in actual lived experience in the state of being flowing in the now continuum employing intuition rather than analysis (ego rested or disassociated) with a detached orientation of acceptance, fearlessness and desirelessness, there is a continuation of renewal of bliss with us as a receptor ... meaning that there is a separate person ... a receiver who feels blissful in the Oneness connectedness.

Connectedness is good but it is still separateness. A connected to B but not B. A is separate and B is separate.

The understanding by experiencing Oneness imparts the definitive wisdom of all being One no doubt but the state of so being restricted to the duration of the deep trance meditation when we are dissolved in the flow but even there as Oneness but not The Oneness in permanence.

So we emerge from the unified field back to the dualistic field wiser but not enabled.

I’ll be happy to get views from all who have so experienced Oneness and then plonked back into duality. How do we handle this oscillation?

***

Anyone whom is so inclined to experience oneness can do so and will do so as part of their education and growth until life is perfected in them then there is no thing to search for any more once one has found their unique perfection. Perfection we all crave and desire. Amen

davidsun
17-08-2019, 01:08 AM
Anyone whom is so inclined to experience oneness can do so and will do so as part of their education and growth until life is perfected in them then there is no thing to search for any more once one has found their unique perfection. Perfection we all crave and desire. Amen
Hi DreamChild - what you call a soul's 'perfection' (I think) is what I regard as a soul;s reaching 'maturity' to the point of where it 'graduates' (as described in my treatise) from the 'school' of earthly-life 'incarnation':

When a soul reaches the point where it truly grasps and fully embraces the fact that it really is an integral aspect of The Entity of (all!) Life, as Jesus (clearly!) did, it just ceases to psychospiritually ‘i’dentify with the physiosocial constellation of its personal self and/or whatever galaxy of affiliated selves (or philosophical constructs pertaining thereto) it may currently have the most immediately consequential involvement with and affiliation to, and so (logically then) stops being egotistical (i.e. selfish in the ‘petty’ sense of the word) and commits itself to living with the aim of maximally fulfilling its Love and Joy imperative in relation to others in the context of The Flow of Life-at-Large, doing whatever it can (given its present situational context as a self) to optimize and augment not just its own or any particular set of associates’ immediate Love and Joy processes, but environmentally (hence ethically in the most comprehensive sense of the word) taking into account any and all ‘ripple effects’ which might conceivably stem from its ‘doings’ in ways that (ultimately) impact the Love and Joy processes of everyone around, the well‑being of future generations also being included in said calculus of course!

Souls ‘graduate’ from Earthly-life’s ‘school’ when their reincarnational learning and development ‘curriculum’ has thus been completed. Having realized their Cosmic ‘I’dentity (termed ‘Christhood’ by some and spoken of as [every]one’s ‘Buddha Nature’ by others) to be The Spirit of Life Itself, such souls operationally function as full-fledged colleagues of what Jesus referenced as ‘the Father’ from then on.

utopiandreamchild
17-08-2019, 02:26 AM
Hi DreamChild - what you call a soul's 'perfection' (I think) is what I regard as a soul;s reaching 'maturity' to the point of where it 'graduates' (as described in my treatise) from the 'school' of earthly-life 'incarnation':

When a soul reaches the point where it truly grasps and fully embraces the fact that it really is an integral aspect of The Entity of (all!) Life, as Jesus (clearly!) did, it just ceases to psychospiritually ‘i’dentify with the physiosocial constellation of its personal self and/or whatever galaxy of affiliated selves (or philosophical constructs pertaining thereto) it may currently have the most immediately consequential involvement with and affiliation to, and so (logically then) stops being egotistical (i.e. selfish in the ‘petty’ sense of the word) and commits itself to living with the aim of maximally fulfilling its Love and Joy imperative in relation to others in the context of The Flow of Life-at-Large, doing whatever it can (given its present situational context as a self) to optimize and augment not just its own or any particular set of associates’ immediate Love and Joy processes, but environmentally (hence ethically in the most comprehensive sense of the word) taking into account any and all ‘ripple effects’ which might conceivably stem from its ‘doings’ in ways that (ultimately) impact the Love and Joy processes of everyone around, the well‑being of future generations also being included in said calculus of course!

Souls ‘graduate’ from Earthly-life’s ‘school’ when their reincarnational learning and development ‘curriculum’ has thus been completed. Having realized their Cosmic ‘I’dentity (termed ‘Christhood’ by some and spoken of as [every]one’s ‘Buddha Nature’ by others) to be The Spirit of Life Itself, such souls operationally function as full-fledged colleagues of what Jesus referenced as ‘the Father’ from then on.

Thank you. Well educated you are. Sowing the seeds of love is what most intrigues me about Buddha and Christ they definitely left a legacy behind and acted in the highest interest of humanity. Praises. Amen

davidsun
18-08-2019, 02:31 PM
This is from the newsletter sent out by SAND (scienceandnonduality.com) Don't know a better place to share this. Thought some readers might find it pertinent to some of the issues explored here.

Discovering the nature of reality has always been a fundamental pursuit of human beings. Throughout time sages and scientists have dedicated their lives to the question of truth—what is real and how do we know what we know? It turns out, seeing reality-as-it-is is neither as straightforward or intuitive as we might imagine. From Plato’s allegory of the cave to the Hindu lila, or divine play, the notion that Reality is somehow in disguise is a universal theme. The reality we take for granted is not what it appears, we are warned. Even Einstein famously said "Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one."

But why is the truth so hard to see? Is there any objective reality to speak of at all? Even if everything is an illusion, don’t we all agree that it is better not to stand in the middle of a busy intersection, or as professor Donald Hoffman puts it, "mess with a lion?" In his paradigm-shifting new article Is Reality Real? How Evolution Blinds us to the Truth About the World, he argues that we actually evolved specifically not to see the truth! "Seeing objective reality will make you extinct," he assures. You see, rather than evolving to give us an accurate representation of objective reality, the sense organs actually evolved to help us know only what we need to know to survive. "Evolution ruthlessly selects against truth strategies and for pay-off strategies," he explains, the pay off, of course, being to escape from the proverbial lion.

If knowing reality-as-it-is for a mystic is enlightenment—and for a scientist, Eureka!—for a caveman, knowing what’s really going on beneath our sense experience is completely useless. Imagine needing to learn code just to interpret what can otherwise be represented by an icon on your desktop. And so we evolved a friendly user interface for the world. "What we perceive isn’t objective reality, but an interface with it," Hoffman writes. The lion we know, in other words, is an icon of a lion.

So, can objective reality be known at all? Certainly, the search for the nature of reality will never end. But we might be a little more humble knowing that we weren’t wired to know very much at all, a little more gentle with our path of awakening knowing that illusion is not just a big problem to solve, but a great protectress paving our way, a little more grateful that a mascarade of beauty is guiding us through our precious evolutionary journey, and a little more aware that, as Nisargadatta put it, "The mind cannot know what is beyond the mind."

Love,
Vera and the SAND Team

Except I would qualify the last (Nisargadatt statement to say "The mind that only focuses on sensory data cannot know ... etc."

Obviously, as clearly implicit in the statement by Rumi quoted directly above this in the same newsletter :redface: , there are no limits to mind's capacity to 'soar'!

"You knock at the door of Reality.
You shake your thought wings,
loosen your shoulders,
and open." - Rumi

:love9:

zorkchop
18-08-2019, 03:46 PM
Reading threads like this . . . one cannot be anything but numbingly amazed at minds ceaseless, well-designed, and unending practice of analysis, definition, and categorization. Mind can spin the “meaning” of this word or that endlessly . . . and make it sound SO delightful and fulfilling. But it is still . . . mind.

I had to smile and nod at Unseeking Seeker’s example of sugar dissolving in water. Though that certainly can and does happen . . . it is *still* sugar and and it is *still* water. Sugar . . . does not become . . . water . . . nor was sugar ever . . . water.

This is the same as mind verses Soul . . . since Soul Itself is NOT mind . . . and mind is NOT Soul Itself. Mind can “dissolve” into something . . . whatever label and definition one wishes to entertain . . . but mind does NOT become Soul at any point on the path. The two are very distinct. Soul does not interact with LIFE in the same way as mind does . . . but . . . ( and it’s a big “but” ) . . . since it is the discovery of just what Soul is verses the mind is one of the classic discoveries one makes on the Path . . . and since Soul has “used” mind as the main tool to interpret all life experiences . . . to discover Self as the pure Soul that It is . . . verses the mind . . . takes seemingly forever. Soul has never experienced Itself . . . free of mind . . . or verses the mind. How can It discover what It has never experienced?

Mind can be trained to slow down and stop . . . and then the individual can claim floating in an endless sea of bliss . . . or some similar experience . . . and claim to be beyond mind. That’s like saying . . . I am walking around inside my house . . . and I stop . . . and now I am outside my house. Or . . . I am driving in my car . . . and I stop the car . . . and now I am outside my car.

Um . . . no.

But . . . most everything that is discussed in this and similar threads is a necessary and vital step amongst the many taken as one travels the path. In no way does this suggest that these steps are insignificant, unnecessary, or inferior. It is simply where each individual is.

The only real questions are . . . now what . . . and . . . who has been to where I want to go . . . how do I discern that . . . and how do I make contact.

And make no mistake about it . . . Soul can and will discover Itself as the pure Soul that It is . . . sans the mind, the emotions, and the physical body . . . given eternity to make that discovery. It can and does happen . . . and then . . . and only then . . . can the distinction between mind and Soul be understood.

Unseeking Seeker
18-08-2019, 05:05 PM
@ zorkchop

The mind-thought-senses body construct as different from eternal consciousness is clear. The question is ... apparently Vedanta too has different views on this ... are we talking about the many being interconnected or there being only one supreme awareness (God) and all else, including all separate souls* (*our presence without the body/mind) being an illusion.

Exiting polarity of duality during meditation we experience ourselves as formless consciousness and going in deeper, in the void as one with Universal consciousness. Profound experience, congratulations and all that ... However we are yet distinct.

Going in deeper, we may be present with the primal sound Aum or see the spiritual light and so on ... all great in as far as imagery is concerned ... in fact we may even become speechless! However, be that as it may, in the sense of being, we are distinct. That’s my experience so this oneness concept does not resonate ... yet.

There is divine love. Sure. We feel it. We are enveloped by it. We feel interconnected to all.

My submission then is, let us call all consciousnesses or souls as interconnected, not as one.

That’s the enigma or dilemma.

***

davidsun
18-08-2019, 06:55 PM
This is the same as mind verses Soul . . . since Soul Itself is NOT mind . . . and mind is NOT Soul Itself. Mind can “dissolve” into something . . . whatever label and definition one wishes to entertain . . . but mind does NOT become Soul at any point on the path. The two are very distinct. Soul does not interact with LIFE in the same way as mind does . . . but . . . ( and it’s a big “but” ) . . . since it is the discovery of just what Soul is verses the mind is one of the classic discoveries one makes on the Path . . . and since Soul has “used” mind as the main tool to interpret all life experiences . . . to discover Self as the pure Soul that It is . . . verses the mind . . . takes seemingly forever. Soul has never experienced Itself . . . free of mind . . . or verses the mind. How can It discover what It has never experienced?
Very clever (cleavor?) Zork. But WHAT IF 'Mind' is an organic (inseparable!) 'faculty' or 'power' OF (the) 'Soul'? What happens when a clever-cleaver like you tries to separate the 'two' and then (stupifiedly?) 'believes' s/he has 'successfully' done so? :icon_eek:

I submit that Mind and Spirit are dynamic capabilities/powers OF the Soul.

Without Mind, Soul is 'blind' and so cannot meaningfully choose anything. Without Spirit, Soul is 'lame' and so cannot go anywhere or do anything. In either case, It's (the Soul's) Life is compromised/short-changed.

Give me a break, clever/cleaver Dude!

You subscribe to this kind of stuff to your own (Soul's!) detriment (IMO), oxymoron-embracing Unseeking-Seeker.

Phaelyn
18-08-2019, 07:26 PM
Great post. I'll add some thoughts.
since Soul Itself is NOT mind . . . and mind is NOT Soul Itself. Mind can “dissolve” into something . . . whatever label and definition one wishes to entertain . . . but mind does NOT become Soul at any point on the path. The two are very distinct.

Soul can become mind using a human body on this earth. That's what most souls are doing here. Soul just identifies with mind and fully embraces it's reality, in effect, "becoming it" while the body lives.

Mind cannot dissolve into soul, but soul can and does "dissolve" or merge into mind.

Soul is choosing to manifest as mind. To present itself as mind and to experience minds interpretations. This is human life. So one cannot really say soul cannot become mind. We can and do and this body and this earth is the place we use to accomplish this.

the discovery of just what Soul is verses the mind is one of the classic discoveries one makes on the Path . . . and since Soul has “used” mind as the main tool to interpret all life experiences . . . to discover Self as the pure Soul that It is . . . verses the mind . . . takes seemingly forever. Soul has never experienced Itself . . . free of mind . . . or verses the mind. How can It discover what It has never experienced?

What have you experienced that is not mind? Great little question to ponder there!

Here's another one.

You posted: since Soul has “used” mind as the main tool to interpret all life experiences....

Question: Isn't all spiritual paths and spiritual goals coming from mind? Isn't all thoughts of self or interpretation of what is from mind? Then what is one to do knowing this?

takes seemingly forever..... does it?

it doesn't take any time at all if one drops mind.... all mind

Mind can be trained to slow down and stop . . . and then the individual can claim floating in an endless sea of bliss . . . or some similar experience . . . and claim to be beyond mind. That’s like saying . . . I am walking around inside my house . . . and I stop . . . and now I am outside my house. Or . . . I am driving in my car . . . and I stop the car . . . and now I am outside my car.

Um . . . no.

But . . . most everything that is discussed in this and similar threads is a necessary and vital step amongst the many taken as one travels the path. In no way does this suggest that these steps are insignificant, unnecessary, or inferior. It is simply where each individual is.

The only real questions are . . . now what . . . and . . . who has been to where I want to go . . . how do I discern that . . . and how do I make contact.

And make no mistake about it . . . Soul can and will discover Itself as the pure Soul that It is . . . sans the mind, the emotions, and the physical body . . . given eternity to make that discovery. It can and does happen . . . and then . . . and only then . . . can the distinction between mind and Soul be understood.

It's already happened. We are just choosing to place our attention on mind.To live in mind and not reality.

utopiandreamchild
18-08-2019, 08:25 PM
***

For those who have been so blessed to experience Oneness in deep meditation ... the question is that having merged our in-form consciousness with Oneness awareness in the boundless sea of bliss and absoluteness, why are we dissolved and yet distinct?

To be more specific, among other possible paths provided by the Universe, during in-form awakening when we as consciousness or energy move up along the spine to the crown and then dissolve in the flow to enter space into the Oneness field, we are one with Oneness and yet in as ordained, distinct. Of course, reverse Oneness experience also happens when the Universe Itself descends into form ... there being no here and there or coming or going in actuality. So we then know that energetically or let us say vibrationally, all is One. Yet the aspect of duality or separateness of our consciousness remains.

Theory being meaningless from the practical standpoint ... all the stuff about self & non-self, being and not being, observing vs witnessing, knowing what is not to know what is and so on ... what we are saying is that in actual lived experience in the state of being flowing in the now continuum employing intuition rather than analysis (ego rested or disassociated) with a detached orientation of acceptance, fearlessness and desirelessness, there is a continuation of renewal of bliss with us as a receptor ... meaning that there is a separate person ... a receiver who feels blissful in the Oneness connectedness.

Connectedness is good but it is still separateness. A connected to B but not B. A is separate and B is separate.

The understanding by experiencing Oneness imparts the definitive wisdom of all being One no doubt but the state of so being restricted to the duration of the deep trance meditation when we are dissolved in the flow but even there as Oneness but not The Oneness in permanence.

So we emerge from the unified field back to the dualistic field wiser but not enabled.

I’ll be happy to get views from all who have so experienced Oneness and then plonked back into duality. How do we handle this oscillation?

***

Love unites us hate devides us. Love is one. Amen

Legrand
18-08-2019, 08:53 PM
Hello Phaelyn,

It's the first time I get to read you on this forum.

Namaste

Unseeking Seeker
19-08-2019, 03:35 AM
***

From the posts it would appear that there is a mismatch in understanding each other on this. Usage of words assigning different meanings to them may be one reason. Let’s take it slow to at least understand what is being attempted to be said ... the post becomes long this way which I don’t like myself but it can’t be helped.

I offer this perspective based upon direct experience as well as understanding :-

We are a distinct awareness (soul, spirit) interconnected with Universal consciousness. We are not the body ... only in temporary occupation of it as a vehicle for earth life experience.

The earth domain prompts that only a certain bandwidth of vibration be employed by restricting the senses of the body therein as a default setting.

Identifying with limitation associated with the body we begin to believe that the body is all there is ... body meaning thought & senses. This is delusion or ignorance.

There being a polarity in duality ... we can however, in this seeming limitation rotate the polarity of our awareness temporarily confined in the body as in-form consciousness. We do this by resting analytical thought and encouraging intuition. The former is restricted to in-form consciousnesses or the ego, whilst intuition to Universal consciousnesses. The ego discourages us* (*pure awareness) to use intuition since intuition has no ego as doer, while fragmented analytical thought has the ego as the doer. In fact, senses too have an internal polarity but we have mostly used the pole pointed outwards ... external.

With this preamble, knowing that we are pure awareness, we are no longer deluded into believing that we are the ego or let us say, the body in-form consciousness. We use the body for what it is ... an instrument but do not associate with it. Without us, the body dies upon us as awareness withdrawing itself from the body.

Upon our attention then no longer caught up in issues of the ego, we vibrationally ascend ... perhaps that is a wrong way to put it ... we reclaim our innate divinity within the body being no longer deluded. We are the rider, ego is the horse. Not the other way around. So we experience inner alignment. The manner may vary from person to person. It could be energy rising in what is called the kundalini energising the body to accept higher frequencies of vibration or it could be descent of divine grace through each pore of our body ... or both ... I think both happen.

Either way, we then have what is called as the oneness experience when we as awareness rise from root to crown and through an orifice through it into space. (there may be other ways ...). In the oneness field, the essence of which is bliss, we are dissolved yet distinct. We are as He but not He Himself. The oneness experience is also within form ... after all, there being no here or there.

Within the void as it is popularly called, we may just be as pure awareness or as oneness communicate with the Oneness (God/yet higher awareness). Our ‘as oneness’ means that being drenched in divine love, our communication within this field may not have any aspect other than reflecting selfless love. There is here no earthy agenda left.

We may be still and see an ascended being or a Godlike form possibly in the shape of what we subconsciously believe. We may even merge within the form to see the dweller within His heart where piercing the veil, we may be stunned to see God Himself. Likewise, in the void of fullness within seeming nothingness we may hear the unstruck sound Aum.

I can affirm the above as valid in my direct experience.

Now, back to body form with the above knowing, what is felt is that we are all interconnected yes. Definitely. What one does impacts all. Yet what seems to be conveyed by the oneness doctrine that there is a singular one consciousness alone ... this seems incorrect. Therefore, I’d say interconnectedness ... not oneness.

That is the question ... or not a question ... a statement inviting purposeful response ... one being that beyond the void there is .... actual reality! I confess I’m not there then. Or perhaps, after the experience we need time for assimilation of the experience.

Thanks for listening

***

davidsun
19-08-2019, 03:46 PM
Thank you for the comprehensive clarification of what you mean, Seeker. I still think you don't get, or at least you are choosing(?) to deflect and so avoid engaging with what I mean. Re the following snippet from your post, for example:

There being a polarity in duality ... we can however, in this seeming limitation rotate the polarity of our awareness temporarily confined in the body as in-form consciousness. We do this by resting analytical thought and encouraging intuition. The former is restricted to in-form consciousnesses or the ego, whilst intuition to Universal consciousnesses. The ego discourages us* (*pure awareness) to use intuition since intuition has no ego as doer, while fragmented analytical thought has the ego as the doer. In fact, senses too have an internal polarity but we have mostly used the pole pointed outwards ... external.
You are still perseverating in cleaving (i.e. separating) what you call 'pure' awareness from its earthly soul-presence. 'Awareness' (which, in my view is just a dynamic 'feature' of what I call 'mind', which in turn is in a faculty/power of 'soul' and so inseperable from it) is never 'pure' in the way you mean, in the sense of a 'thing' that exists or can exist by itself. It is always connected to and so 'colored' by a soul's gestalt/constellation -- initially one might say by the soul gestalt/constellation of our 'Creator' and then by its 'rays' ... the infinitely diverse, various gestalts/constellations of each and every one of our (derivative!) souls in and out of 'worldly' existence.

I hope you 'get' the fact that since this is my view, I 'see' your hanging on to the idea of 'pure' awareness as being an (childishly) 'idealistic' (false-ideal! idolatory!) clinging to something that is unreal (which can never be 'real'!), and hence an escapist (from reality) delusion. This doesn't mean that our awareness is confined to our 'bodies'. It just means that after we die, for example, our 'awareness' will still be a function of (i.e. a 'feature' of 'mind' that is deployed by) our souls which will always have a vibration/color of their 'own', just as the entirety of Creation will always be a 'feature' of Life that reflect the 'vibe' of our Creators' SOUL.

The ideal of being 'pure' is a boondoggle, IOW, Though the flavors and concentrations of 'sugar' may vary, there is only sugar-water (the sugar and the water are inseparable), IOW. This is the Oneness and the Interconcectedness of Being (all being!), which you are denying and on a Quixotic mission to 'get' 'out' of, IMO. Your response (which I deeply appreciate in genuineness of) does not (and IMO, because of your premises cannot) address this fact.

'Pure' implies that personal 'existence' on this 'plane' and/ou other 'planes' is 'impure' by 'nature', which it isn't, Bro. "There is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean." (Romans Ch.14)

Regarding your 'ranking' of logic and intuition: Intuition and logic are just different ways of accessing and processing info. 'Intuition' is also subject to being 'wrong' or 'incomplete', btw. From my book:

"One shouldn’t therefore decide it is better to just rely on what is thought of as intuition instead. Though spontaneously arising thought-feeling gestalts and prompts may frequently be totally appropriate and Life-affirming, they are often purely :smile: reflexive phenomena, like the excitement of Pavlov’s dogs upon hearing a familiar-sounding bell, heavily influenced by, if not completely a function of, prior patterns of perception and conditioning. As demonstrated by the fact that acclaimed clairvoyants also make erroneous pronouncements, intuition is not a totally trustworthy indication. Even the most impressive revelation does not derive from direct perception of Life’s actual layout, but is a subjective ‘projection’ based on what is ‘alive’ in the domain of one’s personal or group psyche at the moment."

Unseeking Seeker
19-08-2019, 04:12 PM
***

Thanks for your inputs David. No, awareness is independent of the mind unless by your definition mind is awareness.

Just as the heart and head lines on our palm usually do not meet, let’s leave it at that.

***

davidsun
19-08-2019, 07:33 PM
Just as the heart and head lines on our palm usually do not meet, let’s leave it at that.
Yes, indeedy. Including the fact that the idea of 'purity' (awareness devoid of any 'sugar' :smile:) is a complete non-starter with me. Thanks for the game. :thumbsup:

Unseeking Seeker
20-08-2019, 01:48 AM
Yes, indeedy. Including the fact that the idea of 'purity' (awareness devoid of any 'sugar' :smile:) is a complete non-starter with me. Thanks for the game. :thumbsup:

***

You are most welcome to a game of ping pong anytime again! :biggrin:

***

Legrand
20-08-2019, 11:07 AM
Hello Unseeking and David or David and Unseeking,

***
Thanks for your inputs David. No, awareness is independent of the mind unless by your definition mind is awareness.
Just as the heart and head lines on our palm usually do not meet, let’s leave it at that.
***
Yes, indeedy. Including the fact that the idea of 'purity' (awareness devoid of any 'sugar' :smile:) is a complete non-starter with me. Thanks for the game. :thumbsup:

As a living being and as a rainbow body, I can understand/experiment/Be both of your point of view.

But in both there are missing pieces of the puzzle to understand fully the Universe. Nothing, to Be, must have created the Universe for a reason I cannot grasp fully with my apparatus, if the universe was created from Nothing. It could have also always been there with Nothing.

As a living body I am still missing subtle mental tools, that some may call the supramental. As a rainbow body they are missing colors to my rainbow, like they are missing colors in the Sun light spectrum.

To take the example of sugar water, I will use instead the one of our salted sea.

With heat, the process of life and death, the water only of the sea evaporates and leaves the salt behind making the solution denser and denser in salt. Like the rainbow body, for some, at the moment of death that leaves behind only the nails and hair and all the rest of the world behind. I do not believe that Nothing “wanted” to create that sea, to only leave behind crystals of salt at the bottom of the sea when all the water will have evaporated.

On the other side, the elements in the sea, evolved to give dolphins, for example, that can breathe the humid air and enjoy the water solution in a process some call creative evolution. Human appeared that are still developing their mental apparatus in the attempt to understand fully this sea, this universe. In the belief that a full understanding will come at one point in evolution without having to evaporate all the water in the sea and only leave behind crystallised minerals.

The work can be done both ways, from Bliss or from Joy of Life, to finally come to understand fully why we are here.

Enjoy!

Unseeking Seeker
20-08-2019, 12:23 PM
Hello Unseeking and David or David and Unseeking,




As a living being and as a rainbow body, I can understand/experiment/Be both of your point of view.

But in both there are missing pieces of the puzzle to understand fully the Universe. Nothing, to Be, must have created the Universe for a reason I cannot grasp fully with my apparatus, if the universe was created from Nothing. It could have also always been there with Nothing.

As a living body I am still missing subtle mental tools, that some may call the supramental. As a rainbow body they are missing colors to my rainbow, like they are missing colors in the Sun light spectrum.

To take the example of sugar water, I will use instead the one of our salted sea.

With heat, the process of life and death, the water only of the sea evaporates and leaves the salt behind making the solution denser and denser in salt. Like the rainbow body, for some, at the moment of death that leaves behind only the nails and hair and all the rest of the world behind. I do not believe that Nothing “wanted” to create that sea, to only leave behind crystals of salt at the bottom of the sea when all the water will have evaporated.

On the other side, the elements in the sea, evolved to give dolphins, for example, that can breathe the humid air and enjoy the water solution in a process some call creative evolution. Human appeared that are still developing their mental apparatus in the attempt to understand fully this sea, this universe. In the belief that a full understanding will come at one point in evolution without having to evaporate all the water in the sea and only leave behind crystallised minerals.

The work can be done both ways, from Bliss or from Joy of Life, to finally come to understand fully why we are here.

Enjoy!

***

That’s interesting as well as illuminating to know. So in a sense of being, do you feel a continuity of oneness without separateness both when normal waking body state as well as in meditation?

***

davidsun
20-08-2019, 12:39 PM
But in both there are missing pieces of the puzzle to understand fully the Universe. Nothing, to Be, must have created the Universe for a reason I cannot grasp fully with my apparatus.
Hello Legrand - I am in synch with you on this score. Given the punyness of our 'apparati' :smile: we can only 'humbly' think and/or intuit and speculate (make our 'best' uncertain bets) about said 'reason'.

if the universe was created from Nothing. It could have also always been there with Nothing.
Yes, in the sense that a 'dream' which is initially 'undreampt' must have e-merged (into an 'action'-movie) from the 'dreamer'.
...

To take the example of sugar water, I will use instead the one of our salted sea. With heat, the process of life and death, the water only of the sea evaporates and leaves the salt behind making the solution denser and denser in salt. Like the rainbow body, for some, at the moment of death that leaves behind only the nails and hair and all the rest of the world behind. I do not believe that Nothing “wanted” to create that sea, to only leave behind crystals of salt at the bottom of the sea when all the water will have evaporated.
Ahh, but your analogy operationally incorporates the same (solid)-sugar-is-something-that-can-be-separated-from-(oceanic-fluid)-water fallacy that the Unseeker (also) believes to be really true. IMO, you fail to 'see' (acknowledge?) the Oneness of ALL Life-Flow in doing so. Aspects of The (Dream) Flow may indeed be transformed (in terms of their psychospiritual 'color' or 'flavor'), but no aspect The (Dream) Flow is ever not a part of it. The idea that separation (i.e. disconnection) is possible is actually a 'heresy' (in terms of the Oneness theory :smile:, that is!). Something can only be 'left behind' figuratively speaking, not literally (i.e. not really!) Therefore:
On the other side, the elements in the sea, evolved to give dolphins, for example, that can breathe the humid air and enjoy the water solution in a process some call creative evolution. Human appeared that are still developing their mental apparatus in the attempt to understand fully this sea, this universe. In the belief that a full understanding will come at one point in evolution without having to evaporate all the water in the sea and only leave behind crystallised minerals.
is a false 'dream' (in the sense of it being missleading when it comes to the 'original' dream's real :smile: 'destiny').

The work can be done both ways, from Bliss or from Joy of Life, to finally come to understand fully why we are here.
I agree with this. Analagous to the way one can 'look at' and 'listen to' (something or other) to try to understand what it is about. Ideally (IMO) one would employ both 'knowledge' modalities.

Enjoy!
I would say Love and Enjoy - but that's just 'splitting hairs'.

Feels good, having another thoughtful player on stage. :biggrin:

Jyotir
20-08-2019, 02:00 PM
There being a polarity in duality ... we can however, in this seeming limitation rotate the polarity of our awareness temporarily confined in the body as in-form consciousness. We do this by resting analytical thought and encouraging intuition. The former is restricted to in-form consciousnesses or the ego, whilst intuition to Universal consciousnesses. The ego discourages us* (*pure awareness) to use intuition since intuition has no ego as doer, while fragmented analytical thought has the ego as the doer. In fact, senses too have an internal polarity but we have mostly used the pole pointed outwards ... external.
Good description.

Authentic spiritual work leads to increasing subjectivity, e.g., knowing by identity, vs. the false objectivity of ego/sense which is nothing other than limitation.


~ J

Phaelyn
20-08-2019, 07:03 PM
then there is no thing to search for any more

Nothing to search for and no one there to search as well.

One is searching for a state of being without searching or a searcher, without self, free of the concepts of time and becoming and free of the experience carrying such concepts produces. If there is no time or self to interpret, one cannot become or be anything other than what is, and what is, is determined by how aware and inwardly free we are in this now. You can't open a window to let a fly outside if you are unaware the fly is here.

We did not create the "fly," but we created the one that is affected by it, that focuses on it, that makes it an important part of now. If we see such things are not real or true or important, then there is no more need for a window to get rid of them.

What was missing or needed? Just seeing the two elements of that are illusions. The doer and that which needs to be done. The doer is a voice, the mind, the running commentary in our minds that focuses on this fictional created self. It is what moves through time from one moment to the next. It has a history and a future. It lives in time. But right now it can be dropped. One can be selfless present to what is here before mind. Present with what I am before mind.

Legrand
20-08-2019, 09:10 PM
***

That’s interesting as well as illuminating to know. So in a sense of being, do you feel a continuity of oneness without separateness both when normal waking body state as well as in meditation?

***
Hello Unseeking,

At this point in my life, I do not make any difference anymore if I’m sleeping, working, walking, meditating or else. It seems there is no more inside and outside anymore. Of course, if I hit a finger of this body with a hammer 😊:mad: this body will scream, and an Ego form will appear for a while that will want to make the pain the only and unique center of my being.

Other than that, I cannot tell if I have a center or not to my being. We could say its like being in a dream.

But I prefer the word vortex.

Each sensation, would it be from the five senses of this body or using other senses to feel other worlds or planes of existence or of perception, just appear, forming a vortex of sensation and creating a point of perception, to then disappear after that when the sensation or perception vanishes… Like clouds in a blue sky.

I am not able to attach those different vortexes of sensations to a same center of perception. Time and space as “defined” by our limited body senses becomes a strange thing also, a strange invention from the mind. Memory also is very strange in the way that it can attach all those different types of perception.

When the sky is blue with no clouds or no sensations to define a point of perception, there is simply Nothing to which I can identify myself to. I don’t know if we can call this Nothing or One or else, and in which way its interconnected with everything. I, It, me is simply not there if there is no sensation to associate with it.

I’m not able to say if all those perceptions appearing are interconnected. To whom? to what? I don’t know.

On the other side, I’m not the All. I did not find a vortex of perception, would it be for just a fraction of a second, big enough and aware of each and every detail possible to be able to say that I have experienced the All.

I can say I’m almost surprised, to come back to this body as a center point of perception most of the time and just find this pulsating/breathing process fascinating.

A sensation is really the most fascinating thing creating with it a “me” each time.

weareunity
20-08-2019, 09:36 PM
Re: Objectivity.

If we imagine a person coming into the reality of oneness as evidenced by thought word and deed which is I think the step following simply becoming aware of oneness--then I think we are seeing that person becoming consciously included in that reality. As such that person is no longer under the illusion of being separate from that reality. I think it is reasonable to say that Objectivity functions across the separation between observer and what is being observed, if that separation no longer exists then objectivity seems no longer possible. How then is understanding to proceed?
I think from empathy resulting from being at one with the subject.
Love is empathic as well as sympathetic I think. So perhaps here is a safeguard if you like--the greatest understanding comes to whoever is in all senses unable/unwilling to use that understanding for any purpose which is evidently contradictory to oneness.

Actually we can see this sort of breakdown of objectivity happening in society today in circumstances where people are enticed/manoeuvred/broken into situations where they are purposefully moulded and engulfed within a retaining group of artificial oneness. Here again objectivity becomes overwhelmed, but instead of empathy being on offer as an alternative way of understanding, exactly the opposite happens--artificial separation, isolation, suspicion and often hatred of all else beyond the group is fostered--with the result that the person in such circumstance is trapped in a situation from which they cannot easily escape themselves. If they do find release then the damage done is it not easily repaired.

petex

davidsun
21-08-2019, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker
There being a polarity in duality ... we can however, in this seeming limitation rotate the polarity of our awareness temporarily confined in the body as in-form consciousness. We do this by resting analytical thought and encouraging intuition. The former is restricted to in-form consciousnesses or the ego, whilst intuition to Universal consciousnesses. The ego discourages us (pure awareness) to use intuition since intuition has no ego as doer, while fragmented analytical thought has the ego as the doer. In fact, senses too have an internal polarity but we have mostly used the pole pointed outwards ... external.

Good description.

Authentic spiritual work leads to increasing subjectivity, e.g., knowing by identity, vs. the false objectivity of ego/sense which is nothing other than limitation.


~ J

Because I am a devotee of Life, which also entails being a devotee of Truth, I am compelled (by my devotion) to reiterate my 'warning' against 'believing' (as seems to be the 'fashion' in certain circles) that intuition is more reliable than logic (which I also agree is not completely reliable). Requoting from my book Godspeak 2000:

"... there are no canonical absolutes. However, one shouldn’t therefore decide it is better to just rely on what is thought of as intuition instead. Though spontaneously arising thought-feeling gestalts and prompts may frequently be totally appropriate and Life-affirming, they are often purely reflexive phenomena, like the excitement of Pavlov’s dogs upon hearing a familiar-sounding bell, heavily influenced by, if not completely a func*tion of, prior patterns of perception and conditioning. As demonstrated by the fact that acclaimed clairvoyants also make erroneous pronouncements, intuition is not a totally trustworthy indication. Even the most impressive revelation does not derive from direct perception of Life’s actual layout, but is a subjective ‘projection’ based on what is ‘alive’ in the domain of one’s personal or group psyche at the moment."

Follow smooth-talking sophists in this regard at your own risk, folks - at your own risk!

Unseeking Seeker
21-08-2019, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by Unseeking Seeker
There being a polarity in duality ... we can however, in this seeming limitation rotate the polarity of our awareness temporarily confined in the body as in-form consciousness. We do this by resting analytical thought and encouraging intuition. The former is restricted to in-form consciousnesses or the ego, whilst intuition to Universal consciousnesses. The ego discourages us (pure awareness) to use intuition since intuition has no ego as doer, while fragmented analytical thought has the ego as the doer. In fact, senses too have an internal polarity but we have mostly used the pole pointed outwards ... external.



Because I am a devotee of Life, which also entails being a devotee of Truth, I am compelled (by my devotion) to reiterate my 'warning' against 'believing' (as seems to be the 'fashion' in certain circles) that intuition is more reliable than logic (which I also agree is not completely reliable). Requoting from my book Godspeak 2000:

"... there are no canonical absolutes. However, one shouldn’t therefore decide it is better to just rely on what is thought of as intuition instead. Though spontaneously arising thought-feeling gestalts and prompts may frequently be totally appropriate and Life-affirming, they are often purely reflexive phenomena, like the excitement of Pavlov’s dogs upon hearing a familiar-sounding bell, heavily influenced by, if not completely a func*tion of, prior patterns of perception and conditioning. As demonstrated by the fact that acclaimed clairvoyants also make erroneous pronouncements, intuition is not a totally trustworthy indication. Even the most impressive revelation does not derive from direct perception of Life’s actual layout, but is a subjective ‘projection’ based on what is ‘alive’ in the domain of one’s personal or group psyche at the moment."

Follow smooth-talking sophists in this regard at your own risk, folks - at your own risk!

***

David, our discussion is inclined for acceptance, not resistance. Yet acceptance in as what resonates within in revealed reality as cognised.

Books and scriptures are aplenty. As of now, I’m flummoxed by the Ashtavakra Gita as well as Ramana and Robert Adams as well as several other adepts teachings.

I do appreciate the love that prompts you to share your own perceptions. You alone may ascertain how far you have walked upon the path in lived reality. How can anyone else say? I don’t even know where I am as am simply flowing.

Instinct and intuition are not the same as suggested. The former drawing from experiential memory whilst the latter enlivened by connecting to Universal consciousness.

It is all too easy to employ thought and keep analysing endlessly. What will it be ... intellectualisation or direct realisation?

The more that is is revealed the less we know. For we don’t need to know, we need to be. Be to become. Blossom. Then we truly know in a certainty that requires no validation from anyone else.

Yes, there is yet a dilemma ... a gap in true understanding, which is why I ask. I ask the pairing by sharing of those so inclined of directly imbibed wisdom so embraced. I have only an oblique interest in bookish knowledge, which we may just look at from time to time as a provisional hypothesis.

So David, is it Oneness or interconnectedness? That remains the question I ask. What is your conviction as felt within?

***

Phaelyn
21-08-2019, 04:34 AM
Intuition is related to the conscience, that gut feeling of knowing right and wrong that appears and that one follows or not.

Logic can be wholly a thought brain thing or a "whole self" thing as well as we can logically be aware of the limits and constraints of thought.

Really the true self has a kind of thought and logic and then the body's brain also has forms of these. So logic can be a higher thing or not, it depends on the awareness and understanding of the one logically exploring something.

I guess it's the same for intuition. It also can be of a higher nature or not because at one end of the scale, it is just habitually following animal behaviors and emotions and at the other it is "knowing" higher truths non-verbally. So intuition can be based on animal drives or higher knowledge and understanding and logic can simply be an imperfect product of the brain or formed with higher awareness and knowledge.

So to me, it's not a matter of which is better or which one should we follow, it's more about the awareness and knowledge and depth of perception of the one that uses logic and intuition.

Phaelyn
21-08-2019, 04:52 AM
Instinct and intuition are not the same as suggested. The former drawing from experiential memory whilst the latter enlivened by connecting to Universal consciousness.

Interesting thought there. I was trying to formulate something similar but couldn't quite produce it to my satisfaction. I think you are right though because generally intuition means non-verbal aware knowing as opposed to non-verbal/non-thinking actions which would be instinct.

r6r6
21-08-2019, 12:47 PM
The ego discourages us (pure awareness) to use intuition since intuition has no ego as doer, while fragmented analytical thought has the ego as the doer.

Dsun.what exactly is this "pure awareness" and where is it located in Universe?

It is may be a nice concept --I presume :rolleyes: --- but is non-existent in our finite, occupied space Universe.

Cursority killed the cat so hopefully my curiosity will fare better. Thanks

It is all a cosmic trinity with subset pf various trinities

davidsun
21-08-2019, 01:23 PM
So David, is it Oneness or interconnectedness? That remains the question I ask. What is your conviction as felt within?
'Wrong' query will not lead to a 'right' conclusion.

Words/logic can only take one so far. Same with intuition (and 'ideas' about it) - which (IMO) are always a function and so 'colored' by past-invented conceptions and experiences experience(s).

"As a man can drink water from any side of a full tank, so the skilled theologian can wrest from any scripture that which will serve his purpose." (The Bhagavad Gita, Ch.2)

Your purpose is to arrive at a definite/definitive (finite) answer, maybe. The Uncertainty Principle (from Quantum Physics) teaches us that there is no such thing.

Relating to your above-quoted question, David koan (LOL): Is 'The Evaporated-Water-falling-as-Rain-on-Earth-forming-mineralized-Streams-and-Rivers-that-flow-into-the-Ocean' THANG a 'Oneness' or an 'Interconnectedness' in action?

My 'conviction' (deriving from logical theory? intuition? or both) is alluded to in the above word-idea-sequence. My purpose in said regard is clear to me. I do not experience any kind of 'dilemma' in said regard.

A cabinet maker may read books and mind-think about cabinet-making. But the process of his or her designing and making a cabinets (experimentation and learning from the feedback or successes and failures in said regard) is beyond precise description. A game can be 'talked about' but in the final analysis it must just be played. :cool:

Unseeking Seeker
21-08-2019, 02:04 PM
***

Thanks David. I pass

***

Phaelyn
21-08-2019, 03:27 PM
A game can be 'talked about' but in the final analysis it must just be played. :cool:

That reminds me that oneness and interconnectedness are both ideas or thoughts, products of the brain or mind, so have no reality to one living life not identified with mind. What are these words pointing to? An experience I suppose but this experience is supposed to be one living free of mind, so why would any enlightened experience contain some idea or thought like oneness and interconnectedness?

As soon as you add some interpretation to now, some mental image of "what it is" you have left reality and are back focusing on the mind treating it as objective reality when it is not reality at all. It is conjured up reality that exists in your mind and nowhere else.

When you "be here now" free of mind, you don't become one with everything, you don't become interconnected with everything, because there is no "one" anymore to do or achieve such things. What you are is indescribable because living is fluid and ever changing, without mind, what is now? My metaphors, it is leaving earth in a space ship, it is walking away from your house leaving everything you have and own behind, and at the same time, you find yourself and all you own.

The less you are, the more you become yourself. Imagine leaving yourself behind and walking on....walking down a beach along the ocean and with each step, you drop something you own. You drop your beliefs, there goes your opinions, boom dropped, then you drop your ideas about dropping, you drop your very self, and walk on, free and unencumbered. Are you one with everything? Yes and no eh. Perhaps if you reach that point of freedom, for a moment or an eternity, you will experience the source in ways that you are able, and the thought will come, ah I see now, there is no separation between me and that, all is one.... but this is a being free of mind.... a being in mind entertaining or conceptualizing "oneness" is finding it in mind, as it is nowhere else. Thus, they are walking down that beach adding mind, not dropping it. An idea of "oneness" prevents an experience of "oneness."

No one is here, nobody, yet I am fully here, more here than I have ever been. That's my koan. Take a deep breath, let go of the mentally created world, and find what has always been here, outside of "you" that you have been missing. It is unimaginable, because it is beyond the imagination. But take one piece of luggage, one item in your pocket, and the door will never open.

When you stop being you, you begin to be you.

davidsun
22-08-2019, 02:05 AM
***

Thanks David. I pass

***
We all 'pass'. In truth, however. I was just responding to what you said/asked. I have no expectation that you will meet me on the road of Life.

r6r6
22-08-2019, 12:51 PM
davidsun--Words/logic can only take one so far.
On a scale of 1 to 10, words and logic ergo metaphysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts-ego :icon_study: and that take us to 8, so that just leaves us intuition and heart as they stem from our feelings :icon_frown:, and emotions :smile: to fill 9 and 10?

Same with intuition (and 'ideas' about it) - which (IMO) are always a function and so 'colored' by past-invented conceptions and experiences experience(s).

All of those experiences good or bad are learning experiences and shape our intuitive and heart functions.

Your purpose is to arrive at a definite/definitive (finite) answer, maybe. The Uncertainty Principle (from Quantum Physics) teaches us that there is no such thing.

That does not ring true to me, since we can no the speed and location seperately i.e. just not as the same time. No biggie. Measure on then the other and we have both when relative same time period.

A game can be 'talked about' but in the final analysis it must just be played.

That is the experience of the game and involves metpahysical-1, mind/intellect/concepts-ego ergo 8 out of 10, then intuition and heart ergo feeling emotions.

BigJohn
22-08-2019, 02:49 PM
[indent]"... there are no canonical absolutes.

[SIZE="4"]The belief that there is a/are God(s)/god(s) appears to be a canonical absolute.

Without this belief, there would be no need for canons.

Phaelyn
23-08-2019, 03:09 AM
The belief that there is a/are God(s)/god(s) appears to be a canonical absolute.


Definitely something vastly more intelligent than human kind exists. God or some advanced multidimensional aliens. :sign7:


.

muffin
23-08-2019, 10:40 AM
That reminds me that oneness and interconnectedness are both ideas or thoughts, products of the brain or mind, so have no reality to one living life not identified with mind. What are these words pointing to? An experience I suppose but this experience is supposed to be one living free of mind, so why would any enlightened experience contain some idea or thought like oneness and interconnectedness?

As soon as you add some interpretation to now, some mental image of "what it is" you have left reality and are back focusing on the mind treating it as objective reality when it is not reality at all. It is conjured up reality that exists in your mind and nowhere else.

When you "be here now" free of mind, you don't become one with everything, you don't become interconnected with everything, because there is no "one" anymore to do or achieve such things. What you are is indescribable because living is fluid and ever changing, without mind, what is now? My metaphors, it is leaving earth in a space ship, it is walking away from your house leaving everything you have and own behind, and at the same time, you find yourself and all you own.

The less you are, the more you become yourself. Imagine leaving yourself behind and walking on....walking down a beach along the ocean and with each step, you drop something you own. You drop your beliefs, there goes your opinions, boom dropped, then you drop your ideas about dropping, you drop your very self, and walk on, free and unencumbered. Are you one with everything? Yes and no eh. Perhaps if you reach that point of freedom, for a moment or an eternity, you will experience the source in ways that you are able, and the thought will come, ah I see now, there is no separation between me and that, all is one.... but this is a being free of mind.... a being in mind entertaining or conceptualizing "oneness" is finding it in mind, as it is nowhere else. Thus, they are walking down that beach adding mind, not dropping it. An idea of "oneness" prevents an experience of "oneness."

No one is here, nobody, yet I am fully here, more here than I have ever been. That's my koan. Take a deep breath, let go of the mentally created world, and find what has always been here, outside of "you" that you have been missing. It is unimaginable, because it is beyond the imagination. But take one piece of luggage, one item in your pocket, and the door will never open.

When you stop being you, you begin to be you.

Good afternoon Phaelyn :smile:

We have very similar views like your metaphors, mine would be like moving house. Turning off the power and water going out the front door and walking down the path, not looking back the further you go all this just fads away just like childhood memories.

And yes you can't take anything with you, you go as you arrived :wink:

guthrio
23-08-2019, 03:32 PM
***

For those who have been so blessed to experience Oneness in deep meditation ... the question is that having merged our in-form consciousness with Oneness awareness in the boundless sea of bliss and absoluteness, why are we dissolved and yet distinct?

To be more specific, among other possible paths provided by the Universe, during in-form awakening when we as consciousness or energy move up along the spine to the crown and then dissolve in the flow to enter space into the Oneness field, we are one with Oneness and yet in as ordained, distinct. Of course, reverse Oneness experience also happens when the Universe Itself descends into form ... there being no here and there or coming or going in actuality. So we then know that energetically or let us say vibrationally, all is One. Yet the aspect of duality or separateness of our consciousness remains.

Theory being meaningless from the practical standpoint ... all the stuff about self & non-self, being and not being, observing vs witnessing, knowing what is not to know what is and so on ... what we are saying is that in actual lived experience in the state of being flowing in the now continuum employing intuition rather than analysis (ego rested or disassociated) with a detached orientation of acceptance, fearlessness and desirelessness, there is a continuation of renewal of bliss with us as a receptor ... meaning that there is a separate person ... a receiver who feels blissful in the Oneness connectedness.

Connectedness is good but it is still separateness. A connected to B but not B. A is separate and B is separate.

The understanding by experiencing Oneness imparts the definitive wisdom of all being One no doubt but the state of so being restricted to the duration of the deep trance meditation when we are dissolved in the flow but even there as Oneness but not The Oneness in permanence.

So we emerge from the unified field back to the dualistic field wiser but not enabled.

I’ll be happy to get views from all who have so experienced Oneness and then plonked back into duality. How do we handle this oscillation?

***

Unseeking Seeker,

"I Am I Be in a continuum of magnetic resonation
With the pulse of The exalted Divine Love vibration"

That is soooo cool!

...which, for me, answers the Oneness Enigma thusly:

One can no more be "separated" from the effect of adding 2+2, than One can be "separated" from the Cause which perfectly sums the answer as 4.

....not even if One acts as if this equation can actually be calculated erroneously, under ANY circumstance. Think about it.

"Perfection does not come from projecting our own ideas but from awakening to the knowledge that it is already the established order of things." as indicated in the reference.

....which is why 2+2 CAN NEVER equal 5, no matter how diligently one may work to establish it as so.

As a matter of Truth, the ONLY way you'd know if you have made a mistake in perception or operation is BECAUSE the ALL principles of Life operate perfectly, without the slightest deviation, variation, attenuation, OR exception, at ANY time or in ANY place for ANYBODY!

We resonate as One with the correct solution of this equation precisely as we resonate as One with correct perception of All That Is, even if we deliberately choose to "calculate" the Perfection of ourselves, mistakenly.

Similarly, the resonance of the One cannot be other than the perfect pulsing of Divine Love vibration throughout Itself...under EVERY circumstance....

....even if erroneously perceived as if it could be a continuum, that is somehow separable from Itself. :confused:

Though enigmatically, we are each, one and all, perfectly free, to so miscalculate.

What an intriguing topic!

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1860060&postcount=33

Unseeking Seeker
23-08-2019, 04:06 PM
***

@ guthrio

So well expressed. Yet, in as felt, the paradox remains as a recognition of cognition in as much as able neither resisting not blindly accepting.

The oneness experience being in the mind rested state, it cannot be reasoned so we rely upon actuality of feeling, our being-ness to express the impressions gathered.

On another thread on SF I expressed the aspect of validity of truth as it unfolds on the canvas of our consciousness thus:

If illumined we must feel it in our bones
Else not real and therefore a clone


Which is to say, no stress but what is, is.

***

Phaelyn
24-08-2019, 06:47 AM
We have very similar views like your metaphors,

I tend to re-think my metaphors as insights come and go.

"You drop" ..nah .... there never was anything to drop, one only needed to realize that. You can't drop something you are not holding.

davidsun
24-08-2019, 10:37 AM
Similarly, the resonance of the One cannot be other than the perfect pulsing of Divine Love vibration throughout Itself...under EVERY circumstance....

....even if erroneously perceived as if it could be a continuum, that is somehow separable from Itself. :confused:

Though enigmatically, we are each, one and all, perfectly free, to so miscalculate.

Bing-go! The miss-calculations are necessary aspects of the process whereby Life arrives at the 'final' solution (I mean resolution :smile:).

To picture the activity of the Living Entity of our Creation (i.e., of ‘the Son’), imagine a universe-sized network made up of an infinite array of banks upon banks of computers matrixially web-strung together by way of both parallel and series connections, all simultaneously, individually and together, multi-processing the above referenced Love and Joy ‘program’, with each processor and every amalgamation thereof functionally outputting the ‘solution’ it ‘calculates’ will most probably yield the greatest possible Love and Joy ‘result’ in its case (as far as it can prognostically project, that is), which ‘solution’ then operationally functions as input in relation of any and all associated processors to whatever extent they ‘calculate’ it to be relevant to their own Love and Joy process, such that said output-n-input data-packet sequences co-actively ripple and reverberate around the network, sparking Love and Joy focused perceptions and decisions (i.e., experiences and expressions) which conjointly determine what takes place here, there and everywhere in ‘the body’ of said Entity over the course of time.

davidsun
24-08-2019, 10:46 AM
The oneness experience being in the mind rested state, it cannot be reasoned so we rely upon actuality of feeling, our being-ness to express the impressions gathered.
O yes it can! (See my above response to Guthrio in this regard.)

If illumined we must feel it in our bones
Else not real and therefore a clone

Everyone is illumined - somewhat :smile:

Everyone feels the truth/love of Life 'in their bones', though not everyone 'reasons' such truth/love through (at least not all the way through) and so continues to experience 'dilemmas' which still 'need' to be resolved.

Unseeking Seeker
24-08-2019, 12:28 PM
***

@ davidsun :toothy4:

***

guthrio
24-08-2019, 09:15 PM
Bing-go! The miss-calculations are necessary aspects of the process whereby Life arrives at the 'final' solution (I mean resolution :smile:).

To picture the activity of the Living Entity of our Creation (i.e., of ‘the Son’), imagine a universe-sized network made up of an infinite array of banks upon banks of computers matrixially web-strung together by way of both parallel and series connections, all simultaneously, individually and together, multi-processing the above referenced Love and Joy ‘program’, with each processor and every amalgamation thereof functionally outputting the ‘solution’ it ‘calculates’ will most probably yield the greatest possible Love and Joy ‘result’ in its case (as far as it can prognostically project, that is), which ‘solution’ then operationally functions as input in relation of any and all associated processors to whatever extent they ‘calculate’ it to be relevant to their own Love and Joy process, such that said output-n-input data-packet sequences co-actively ripple and reverberate around the network, sparking Love and Joy focused perceptions and decisions (i.e., experiences and expressions) which conjointly determine what takes place here, there and everywhere in ‘the body’ of said Entity over the course of time.

Hi Davidsun,

I enjoyed your "BINGO!" response, which, in another "game-like" setting of the metaphor, implies that a prize (of understanding) has been achieved. :smile:

A singular image came to mind thinking of your descriptions of "the picture the activity of the Living Entity of our Creation (i.e., of ‘the Son’)" and the image of "banks upon banks of computers matrixially web-strung together....." .

The image that came my mind was that of a Mobius strip: described herein from a Wikipedia reference: A Möbius strip, Möbius band, or Möbius loop (UK: /ˈmɜːbiəs/, US: /ˈmoʊ-, ˈmeɪ-/; German: [ˈmøːbi̯ʊs]), also spelled Mobius or Moebius, is a surface with only one side (when embedded in three-dimensional Euclidean space) and only one boundary. The Möbius strip has the mathematical property of being unorientable. It can be realized as a ruled surface. Its discovery is attributed to the German mathematicians Johann Benedict Listing and then independently August Ferdinand Möbius in 1858,[1][2][3][4] though a structure similar to the Möbius strip can be seen in Roman mosaics dated circa 200–250 AD.[5][6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip

...which if one considers (or calculates) an imaginary journey upon one, one will always either "seam" to proceed from the "beginning of the end", or "seam" to proceed from the "end of the beginning". My spelling of "seam" vs. seem is deliberately ironic, isn't it? Why?

Think "I AM the Alpha and the Omega." and

Think "I (the Son) and the Father are One"

....as metaphors of an infinitely recurring journey of discovery which 'seams' to eternally begin and end as an infinity of different calculations diverging on different paths.

...upon which we each have already arrived, even as we depart on the journey.

Or as Chiang, says in the reference: "You must begin by knowing that you have already arrived"

In BINGO terms, we have "all"-ready won the prize! :hug3:

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1853691&postcount=124

davidsun
24-08-2019, 09:48 PM
Your 'resonation' with my computer-bank model presentation is joyfully danced with, guthrio. I receive your mobius strip mention and associated discussion as a stimulus to further quote from my treatise (https://davidsundom.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/6/5/7765474/what_jesus_meant_ds.pdf) which presents a view that is quite convergent.

The image that came my mind was that of a Moebius strip: described herein from a Wikipedia reference: A Möbius strip, Möbius band, or Möbius loop (UK: /ˈmɜːbiəs/, US: /ˈmoʊ-, ˈmeɪ-/; German: [ˈmøːbi̯ʊs]), also spelled Mobius or Moebius, is a surface with only one side (when embedded in three-dimensional Euclidean space) and only one boundary. The Möbius strip has the mathematical property of being unorientable. It can be realized as a ruled surface. Its discovery is attributed to the German mathematicians Johann Benedict Listing and then independently August Ferdinand Möbius in 1858,[1][2][3][4] though a structure similar to the Möbius strip can be seen in Roman mosaics dated circa 200–250 AD.[5][6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6bius_strip

...which if one considers (or calculates) an imaginary journey upon one, one will always either "seam" to proceed from the "beginning of the end", or "seam" to proceed from the "end of the beginning". My spelling of "seam" vs. seem is deliberately ironic, isn't it? Why?

Think "I AM the Alpha and the Omega." and

Think "I (the Son) and the Father are One"

....as metaphors of an infinitely recurring journey of discovery which eternally begins and ends as one path.

...upon which we each have already arrived, even as we depart on the journey.

Or as Chiang, says in the reference: "You must begin by knowing that you have already arrived"

In BINGO terms, we have "all"-ready won the prize! :hug3:

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1853691&postcount=124
Many would rather simply believe that by saying “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) Jesus unequivocally asserted that the gestalts of his and his/our Father’s spirits were absolutely identical, that they were literally one and the same aspect of Life in action; case closed. Such statement may certainly be read that way and, taken by itself, used to support God-concept co-opting narratives such as the one presented in the Nicene Creed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) which proclaims that the personage of Jesus was “begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made;” etc. But :smile: it may also be taken to mean that Jesus thought and felt that his and said Father-God’s spirits were dynamically integrated and functionally co-operational, and so united as ‘one’, metaphorically speaking, in terms of purpose and consequence – analogous to the way in which partners who aren’t identical may accomplish something they both desire when and as they work together in a complementary manner, which they couldn’t and so wouldn’t be able to creatively accomplish if each worked alone. (This is what holism really means, by the way: “Holism is based upon idea that: the whole is more than the sum of its constitutive parts, so reduction of the whole to its constitutive elements eliminates some factors which are present only when a being is seen as a whole. For example, synergy is generated through the interaction of parts but it does not exist if we take parts alone.”)

For those who have reached the point where they are capable of dispassionately pondering such matters, I submit that “The Father is in me, and I in him” (John 10:38) which Jesus added in the same speech-sequence (as “I and my Father are one”) clearly shows the latter understanding to be what he actually meant to communicate. Notwithstanding the meta-truth that every ‘feature’ of Creativity (Life, God, Reality, Being – however you wish to view and reference It) is an inseparably integral aspect of one all-inclusive phenomenon, in light of which any and all conceptual ‘divisions’ which distinguish aspects of It one from another may be seen to really just be navigational aides at best, this saying indicates that Jesus ‘saw’ that there was a dynamic, two-way flow-connection between the primally progenitive soul of ‘the Father’ and the consequentially co‑generative soul-constellation of ‘the Son’, such that the outflow from one functions as inflow in relation to the other in continuously ongoing outflow→inflow→ad infinitum fashion. Readers capable of engaging in abstract thought experiments may appreciate the kind of experience an observer walking lengthwise along the seemingly two‑sided ‘surface’ of a mobius strip would have and, if reasonably intelligent, sooner or later grok as analogically explaining the never‑ending ‘story’ of ever-ongoing Father↔Son Creation.

Actually, Jesus’ vision was even more penetrating and far-seeing than even the statement “The Father is in me, and I in him” implies. Presaging that wave-ripples of awareness and spiritual espousal of what he ‘saw’ and articulated would spread and become so mutually validating and reinforcing as to eventually peak in a worldwide crescendo, continuing to identify with and so speak in the ‘persona’ of The Entity of all Creation, he then went on to say, “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20) Such statement cannot possibly be made sense of using simple, linear A→B→C logic, of course, but how aspects of the identities of personal and transpersonal beings (beingnesses, really) can operationally be ‘in’ one another becomes readily understandable when and as one realizes, as more and more people are now doing, that our existential reality is a matrixially interwoven, dynamically living (that is, creatively growing, developing, evolving, etc.) system wherein the output of every personal and transpersonal component of said system functions as input in relation to any and all other components which, because of constitutional similarities and/or complementary affiliations, are vibrationally ‘attuned’ thereto, such that the process of every singular or compound element thereof, ‘from the least to the greatest’, ultimately directly or indirectly affects and is affected by the process of every other aspect of Life.

guthrio
24-08-2019, 11:02 PM
Your 'resonation' with my computer-bank model presentation is joyfully danced with, guthrio. I receive your mobius strip mention and associated discussion as a stimulus to further quote from my treatise (https://davidsundom.weebly.com/uploads/7/7/6/5/7765474/what_jesus_meant_ds.pdf) which presents a view that is quite convergent.


Many would rather simply believe that by saying “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) Jesus unequivocally asserted that the gestalts of his and his/our Father’s spirits were absolutely identical, that they were literally one and the same aspect of Life in action; case closed. Such statement may certainly be read that way and, taken by itself, used to support God-concept co-opting narratives such as the one presented in the Nicene Creed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) which proclaims that the personage of Jesus was “begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made;” etc. But :smile: it may also be taken to mean that Jesus thought and felt that his and said Father-God’s spirits were dynamically integrated and functionally co-operational, and so united as ‘one’, metaphorically speaking, in terms of purpose and consequence – analogous to the way in which partners who aren’t identical may accomplish something they both desire when and as they work together in a complementary manner, which they couldn’t and so wouldn’t be able to creatively accomplish if each worked alone. (This is what holism really means, by the way: “Holism is based upon idea that: the whole is more than the sum of its constitutive parts, so reduction of the whole to its constitutive elements eliminates some factors which are present only when a being is seen as a whole. For example, synergy is generated through the interaction of parts but it does not exist if we take parts alone.”)

For those who have reached the point where they are capable of dispassionately pondering such matters, I submit that “The Father is in me, and I in him” (John 10:38) which Jesus added in the same speech-sequence (as “I and my Father are one”) clearly shows the latter understanding to be what he actually meant to communicate. Notwithstanding the meta-truth that every ‘feature’ of Creativity (Life, God, Reality, Being – however you wish to view and reference It) is an inseparably integral aspect of one all-inclusive phenomenon, in light of which any and all conceptual ‘divisions’ which distinguish aspects of It one from another may be seen to really just be navigational aides at best, this saying indicates that Jesus ‘saw’ that there was a dynamic, two-way flow-connection between the primally progenitive soul of ‘the Father’ and the consequentially co‑generative soul-constellation of ‘the Son’, such that the outflow from one functions as inflow in relation to the other in continuously ongoing outflow→inflow→ad infinitum fashion. Readers capable of engaging in abstract thought experiments may appreciate the kind of experience an observer walking lengthwise along the seemingly two‑sided ‘surface’ of a mobius strip would have and, if reasonably intelligent, sooner or later grok as analogically explaining the never‑ending ‘story’ of ever-ongoing Father↔Son Creation.

Actually, Jesus’ vision was even more penetrating and far-seeing than even the statement “The Father is in me, and I in him” implies. Presaging that wave-ripples of awareness and spiritual espousal of what he ‘saw’ and articulated would spread and become so mutually validating and reinforcing as to eventually peak in a worldwide crescendo, continuing to identify with and so speak in the ‘persona’ of The Entity of all Creation, he then went on to say, “At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.” (John 14:20) Such statement cannot possibly be made sense of using simple, linear A→B→C logic, of course, but how aspects of the identities of personal and transpersonal beings (beingnesses, really) can operationally be ‘in’ one another becomes readily understandable when and as one realizes, as more and more people are now doing, that our existential reality is a matrixially interwoven, dynamically living (that is, creatively growing, developing, evolving, etc.) system wherein the output of every personal and transpersonal component of said system functions as input in relation to any and all other components which, because of constitutional similarities and/or complementary affiliations, are vibrationally ‘attuned’ thereto, such that the process of every singular or compound element thereof, ‘from the least to the greatest’, ultimately directly or indirectly affects and is affected by the process of every other aspect of Life.

Davidsun,

I, too, am enjoying the dance.

“I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) Jesus unequivocally asserted that the gestalts of his and his/our Father’s spirits were absolutely identical, that they were literally one and the same aspect of Life in action; case closed. Such statement may certainly be read that way and, taken by itself, used to support God-concept co-opting narratives such as the one presented in the Nicene Creed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) which proclaims that the personage of Jesus was “begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made;” etc.[/size] But :smile: [size=3]it may also be taken to mean that Jesus thought and felt that his and said Father-God’s spirits were dynamically integrated and functionally co-operational, and so united as ‘one’, metaphorically speaking,...."

....however, the view I've come to categorically, rather than metaphorically adopt, is that everything that you've described, above, that Jesus spoke of Himself in relation to His and our Father...

....and applies to us all, each and every One, in exactly the same way.

I believe this is the message that, in one way or another, continues to be disbelieved, or obscured to this day.

I personally began the journey of this discovery over 30 years ago, and which I've expanded in the references, below. My heart has been dancing ever since. :smile:

Reference: http://www.thechristmind.org/nutshell.htm

Reference:http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=902772&postcount=8

Reference:http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=906259&postcount=23

davidsun
24-08-2019, 11:54 PM
....however, the view I've come to categorically, rather than metaphorically adopt, is that everything that you've described, above, that Jesus spoke of Himself in relation to His and our Father...

....and applies to us all, each and every One, in exactly the same way.

Yes! The 'metaphor' I was referencing is the (idea of) the identicalness of his/our 'i'dentity/ies with 'Godhead'. I agree with what you say as being 'categorically' true.

High-Five Fellow Galloping Giddyapper! :D

guthrio
25-08-2019, 12:17 AM
Yes! The 'metaphor' I was referencing is the (idea of) the identicalness of his/our 'i'dentity/ies with 'Godhead'. I agree with what you say as being 'categorically' true.

High-Five Fellow Galloping Giddyapper! :D

Davidsun,

Well Done! I'm SO glad to hear this! :wav:

Ironically, I just saw the following in the reference below, the entirety of which which solidifies everything we've been speaking of, even to this note:

"Integrity" comes from "integer" which originates from "one". When a person realizes that "everything" is really just ONE thing, and that they are an integral part of this ONE thing, then they instinctively & automatically treat everyone & everything with the care, respect, and consideration, which which they would like to be treated. This is "integrity".

Would that the entire world could all remember how Galloping Giddyapper! true this is! :hug3:

Reference: https://iasos.com/metaphys/bashar/ (See interesting definitions, toward the bottom of the reference).

davidsun
25-08-2019, 04:35 AM
Reference: https://iasos.com/metaphys/bashar/ (See interesting definitions, toward the bottom of the reference).
Cool (meaning Hot Diggity :smile:) stuff here! Caveat however: we still are in a 3+1 (the 3 being body and one being time) world, and one may short-circuit one's soul development if one leap-frogs (skipping the 'grade' level one is in here-now) into 5th dimension 'philosophical framework'. One has to do one's 'school work'. There are no 'escapes' in this regard, IMO.

muffin
25-08-2019, 09:52 AM
I tend to re-think my metaphors as insights come and go.

"You drop" ..nah .... there never was anything to drop, one only needed to realize that. You can't drop something you are not holding.

Good afternoon Phaelyn :smile:

Things are not always as they seem, yet they are.

You see it to be dropped or is a key. :wink:

guthrio
25-08-2019, 10:34 PM
Cool (meaning Hot Diggity :smile:) stuff here! Caveat however: we still are in a 3+1 (the 3 being body and one being time) world, and one may short-circuit one's soul development if one leap-frogs (skipping the 'grade' level one is in here-now) into 5th dimension 'philosophical framework'. One has to do one's 'school work'. There are no 'escapes' in this regard, IMO.

Davidsun,

As I previously mentioned to you about beginning this journey of learning over 30 years ago, please notice the mention, in the reference, below, of the impact of the set of books written by Baird T. Spalding, entitled, Life and Teaching of the Masters of the Far East.

One of the most profound realizations I've gleaned, of late, is the following:

Creation, in all its infinite forms, has already been completed! All WE must do, as Creators gifted with the Infinite Essence's OWN power, is to vibrationally align ourselves WITH the completed circumstance(s) we wish to experience upon the "holo-skein of space and time", in this, and in dimensions a'beckoning (where even more miraculous lessons await).

Here's a perfect segue to do so, herein attached, with a caveat of my own, namely, that because:

"We are not human beings having a Spiritual experience, we are Spiritual Beings having a human experience"
Pierre de Chardin

....our 1st task, IMO, must be to reverse the effects of acculturated, accumulated indoctrination, from childhood on, of merely existing to toil wearily as physical beings..

....toward realizing and optimizing this: "In a most miraculous fashion you are given the gift of creating your own experiences.".

Ironically, the song I just finished listening to on my favorite "Easy Instrumentals" TV channel "underscores" the prospects awaiting our collective engagement as a hardy species of Spiritual explorers:

"We've Only Just Begun" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__VQX2Xn7tI

How serendipitous of the Universe to provide such a synchronicity for encouragement!!!

Insofar as learning miraculous lessons goes: WHAT COULD BE MORE FUN THAN THAT ????? :hug3:

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1711760&postcount=45 Miracles Are The Garden of You

davidsun
25-08-2019, 11:31 PM
Yes to, and delighting in, all your point(er)s, guthrio.

My caveat to the Bashar and similar '5D' 'pitches' is that, all too often IMO, such 'you-create-your-own-reality' or 'you-create-your-own-experience' tunes are danced to in 'I-got-mine-you-go-get-yours' ways which actually 'miss' the 'point' (meaning opportunity) that our 3+1D stage setting provides which is necessary IMO for real/true honest-to-goodness soul-growth and soul-flowering.

I don't know what their true intent*** is, but their (such disembodied spirit's) 'messages' may be and often are (in my view) seductively miss-leading (like giving a 'kid' a fast 'car' or a 'loose' girl, or boy as the case may be, to play with).

*** Some have speculated that they are basically 'lost' souls who 'feed off' the energies of those who 'follow' them, who in effect serve as their spirit-battery charging 'devices', the same way as earthly 'performers' get a boost from and so, in effect, feed of the 'attention' and 'devotion' of their 'audiences', I suppose.

Their teachings don't emphasize and, as a result of emphasizing other things, often distract people from contemplating and following up on their understanding(s) of the nature, importance and potential of Love of Conjoint Life, i.e. of what I call Communion with others and All, IOW - again IMO.

Not so in your case, obviously.

High-Five, Soul-Bro!

guthrio
26-08-2019, 01:47 AM
Yes to, and delighting in, all your point(er)s, guthrio.

My caveat to the Bashar and similar '5D' 'pitches' is that, all too often IMO, such 'you-create-your-own-reality' or 'you-create-your-own-experience' tunes are danced to in 'I-got-mine-you-go-get-yours' ways which actually 'miss' the 'point' (meaning opportunity) that our 3+1D stage setting provides which is necessary IMO for real/true honest-to-goodness soul-growth and soul-flowering.

I don't know what their true intent*** is, but their (such disembodied spirit's) 'messages' may be and often are (in my view) seductively miss-leading (like giving a 'kid' a fast 'car' or a 'loose' girl, or boy as the case may be, to play with).

*** Some have speculated that they are basically 'lost' souls who 'feed off' the energies of those who 'follow' them, who in effect serve as their spirit-battery charging 'devices', the same way as earthly 'performers' get a boost from and so, in effect, feed of the 'attention' and 'devotion' of their 'audiences', I suppose.

Their teachings don't emphasize and, as a result of emphasizing other things, often distract people from contemplating and following up on their understanding(s) of the nature, importance and potential of Love of Conjoint Life, i.e. of what I call Communion with others and All, IOW - again IMO.

Not so in your case, obviously.

High-Five, Soul-Bro!

Thanks, and back at ya Davidsun! (SF moderators where is the high five icon?) :smile:

Though I think you may find it a bit ironic, to ascribe such selfish motives to those you call "disembodied", who are equally as responsible to "create their own realities" with the Creator's power, as we, temporarily embodied, beings are.

All are freely endowed with the Creator's Own Spirit, to create as we will, whether embodied or not...with perfect freedom to learn the hard way or the easy way at each echelon of existence. None are spared the rewards of conformance to God's infallible Law, nor the results of nonconformance thereto (because, as co-creators, this is the law of our OWN being).

That's what unconditional love is, whether as Spirits, embodied or disembodied....on our respective journeys back to the inevitable realization that we are already The Spiritual Source of All we've been seeking "outside ourselves" from the beginning.

I am proud to be traveling on this Soul-journ with you and others I have met here and elsewhere.

janielee
26-08-2019, 05:00 AM
Re: Objectivity.

If we imagine a person coming into the reality of oneness as evidenced by thought word and deed which is I think the step following simply becoming aware of oneness--then I think we are seeing that person becoming consciously included in that reality. As such that person is no longer under the illusion of being separate from that reality. I think it is reasonable to say that Objectivity functions across the separation between observer and what is being observed, if that separation no longer exists then objectivity seems no longer possible. How then is understanding to proceed?
I think from empathy resulting from being at one with the subject.
Love is empathic as well as sympathetic I think. So perhaps here is a safeguard if you like--the greatest understanding comes to whoever is in all senses unable/unwilling to use that understanding for any purpose which is evidently contradictory to oneness.

Actually we can see this sort of breakdown of objectivity happening in society today in circumstances where people are enticed/manoeuvred/broken into situations where they are purposefully moulded and engulfed within a retaining group of artificial oneness. Here again objectivity becomes overwhelmed, but instead of empathy being on offer as an alternative way of understanding, exactly the opposite happens--artificial separation, isolation, suspicion and often hatred of all else beyond the group is fostered--with the result that the person in such circumstance is trapped in a situation from which they cannot easily escape themselves. If they do find release then the damage done is it not easily repaired.

petex

Very, very perceptive. Thank you for your words of unity, Pete. :hug2:

davidsun
26-08-2019, 04:41 PM
Though I think you may find it a bit ironic, to ascribe such selfish motives to those you call "disembodied", who are equally as responsible to "create their own realities" with the Creator's power, as we, temporarily embodied, beings are.
Everyone/anyone who isn't (yet) 'Christed' is (still) operationally 'selfish' (to one degree of another), I think.

Our world is plenty-full :smile: of souls that are 'parasitical' (unless and until they choose to be otherwise in the course of their soul-development). I have no reason to think that 'disembodied' spirits are different. I don't know, but I have read and it makes sense to me that the only way a soul can change (in the sense of 'maturing' to the point of Christhood by learning and growing from co-relational experiences) is via 'incarnating' - becoming 'embodied' in the context of other 'bodies', in the 'Body' of The Entity of Life - hence Jesus' pronouncement that “I*am*the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6) - his 'me' referencing The Entity of Life which he personally totally 'i'dentified' with.

No reason that you 'should' do so, but you are going to have to fully and closely read and grok what's in my treatise if you want to get 'on the same page' as me on this score, guthrio.

My own 'sense' is that Bashar ain't 'Christed'. I am still wondering about Seth, but leaning towards thinking that's true of him as well - though they both celarly know and convey a LOT of 'Truth'. I question the 'nature' (fullness, Christedness) of their 'Love', IOW.

I once read that one of Satan's (i.e. Selfish-Spirit's) 'tricks' is to give you a LOT of 'Truths' (till you get into trusting what 'he' says) and sandwish-sneak a 'lie' (distortion) in - in ways which, because of the 'trust' that's been established, peeps are not able or inclined to 'detect.

As I have said the notion that "I create MY own Reality and YOU create YOURS" essentially belies :smile: the FACT that the REALITY of LIFE is a conjoint creation.

guthrio
26-08-2019, 07:29 PM
Everyone/anyone who isn't (yet) 'Christed' is (still) operationally 'selfish' (to one degree of another), I think.

Our world is plenty-full :smile: of souls that are 'parasitical' (unless and until they choose to be otherwise in the course of their soul-development). I have no reason to think that 'disembodied' spirits are different. I don't know, but I have read and it makes sense to me that the only way a soul can change (in the sense of 'maturing' to the point of Christhood by learning and growing from co-relational experiences) is via 'incarnating' - becoming 'embodied' in the context of other 'bodies', in the 'Body' of The Entity of Life - hence Jesus' pronouncement that “I*am*the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” (John 14:6) - his 'me' referencing The Entity of Life which he personally totally 'i'dentified' with.

No reason that you 'should' do so, but you are going to have to fully and closely read and grok what's in my treatise if you want to get 'on the same page' as me on this score, guthrio.

My own 'sense' is that Bashar ain't 'Christed'. I am still wondering about Seth, but leaning towards thinking that's true of him as well - though they both celarly know and convey a LOT of 'Truth'. I question the 'nature' (fullness, Christedness) of their 'Love', IOW.

I once read that one of Satan's (i.e. Selfish-Spirit's) 'tricks' is to give you a LOT of 'Truths' (till you get into trusting what 'he' says) and sandwish-sneak a 'lie' (distortion) in - in ways which, because of the 'trust' that's been established, peeps are not able or inclined to 'detect.

As I have said the notion that "I create MY own Reality and YOU create YOURS" essentially belies :smile: the FACT that the REALITY of LIFE is a conjoint creation.

Davidsun,

....The view(s) you've espoused and written of in your Treatise, form a very effective guide for your continuing journey of discovery.

The path(s) upon which I walk in said journey of discovery, are guided by how I've learned to Treat(ise) myself :smile: as a living book of learning, upon whose pages I apply the "pen"-siveness of experience acquired upon said path(s), gained, step-by-experiential-step....

...each of which I am guided by "an inner knowing that keeps me going".

I salute your path(s) and methods of inquiry as perfectly suited to your needs as I salute my own; as I continue to enjoy my own path of learning with the same integrity I am certain that you are pursuing yours:

....as described in my previous response to you "Integrity" comes from "integer" which originates from "one". When a person realizes that "everything" is really just ONE thing, and that they are an integral part of this ONE thing, then they instinctively & automatically treat everyone & everything with the care, respect, and consideration, which which they would like to be treated. This is "integrity".

And because of this integrity, Brother Davidsun, I will "bank" upon the absolute certainty that the universe-sized network made up of an infinite array of banks upon banks of computers matrixially web-strung together by way of both parallel and series connections, all simultaneously, individually and together, multi-processing the above referenced Love and Joy ‘program’, with each processor and every amalgamation thereof functionally outputting the ‘solution’ it ‘calculates’ will, not, probably, yield the greatest possible Love and Joy ‘result’....for us All....

...because of it!

Toward that end (of a new beginning), I offer blessings to us both on our respective journeys as the Infinite Essence we'll always be.

"And I___

"I took the road I travel by, and that has made all the difference..."

...to me". :hug3:

davidsun
26-08-2019, 07:35 PM
Amen to your choice, though it is not mine and I argue that it is too personal self-serving and so not the best possible one, guthrio. :love9:

guthrio
26-08-2019, 08:07 PM
Amen to your choice, though it is not mine and I argue that it is too personal self-serving and so not the best possible one, guthrio. :love9:

Amen, indeed Davidsun!

Though we cannot make choices for one another, we can choose to enjoy one another's company and the sacredness of the I Am's presence within us... on this journey....with the very integrity the Creator endows all.

P.S. Still lookin' for that High-Five icon! :smile:

davidsun
26-08-2019, 08:37 PM
Amen, indeed Davidsun!

Though we cannot make choices for one another, we can choose to enjoy one another's company and the sacredness of the I Am's presence within us... on this journey....with the very integrity the Creator endows all.

P.S. Still lookin' for that High-Five icon!
:icon_thumright: :icon_salut: :icon_cheers: :occasion14: might have to do. :smile:

Legrand
27-08-2019, 12:25 AM
Hello :smile:

Interesting question when two co-creators meet in the same space/time frame…

Brings me back memories of when I was bonze (monk) in shaolin wing chun kung fu.

In all that time of practice/meditation there was this rule of Jade to follow. Not following it would at the most bring one to be excluded from the “school” as Bruce Lee was.

Yet in this few moments of actual combat, moments where two co creators would meet in movement, there was no rules left to follow except one.

The person who would stop to be in the here and now just for a glimpse of a moment is assured to have lost the “combat”.

Enjoy!

guthrio
27-08-2019, 01:00 AM
:icon_thumright: :icon_salut: :icon_cheers:
might have to do. :smile:

...works for me, too, my Friend! :headbang:

(Had to exchange the "headbang" icon for the "occasion" icon you used, per SF rules of only 5 icons total per post). Nice fit "for the occasion", don't ya think? Maybe someday, we can "knock back" a few cold ones before heading for the Pearly Gates!

guthrio
27-08-2019, 01:16 AM
Hello :smile:

Interesting question when two co-creators meet in the same space/time frame…

Brings me back memories of when I was bonze (monk) in shaolin wing chun kung fu.

In all that time of practice/meditation there was this rule of Jade to follow. Not following it would at the most bring one to be excluded from the “school” as Bruce Lee was.

Yet in this few moments of actual combat, moments where two co creators would meet in movement, there was no rules left to follow except one.

The person who would stop to be in the here and now just for a glimpse of a moment is assured to have lost the “combat”.

Enjoy!

Hello Legrand,

...strange that it would have been considered a loss for a monk to have glimpsed, in the eternal moment that "here and now" truly is, that there would no longer be further need for combat with an "opponent", then clearly perceived to be...

....his very Self!

Ever here; even now. :smile:

Legrand
27-08-2019, 10:51 AM
Hello Legrand,

...strange that it would have been considered a loss for a monk to have glimpsed, in the eternal moment that "here and now" truly is, that there would no longer be further need for combat with an "opponent", then clearly perceived to be...

....his very Self!

Ever here; even now. :smile:

Hello guthrio,

If it was a real combat, the one not being in the here and now for a glimpse would be dead for he or she would not of been able to block the fatal hit.

In a "combat", in a training to test ones level of concentration in this material world, we would slimply enjoy the Bliss that comes after.

Being in Bliss a bonze will not engage in an actual combat, as he or she does not see a need for it to resolve any situation.

Enjoy!

guthrio
27-08-2019, 02:01 PM
Hello guthrio,

If it was a real combat, the one not being in the here and now for a glimpse would be dead for he or she would not of been able to block the fatal hit.

In a "combat", in a training to test ones level of concentration in this material world, we would slimply enjoy the Bliss that comes after.

Being in Bliss a bonze will not engage in an actual combat, as he or she does not see a need for it to resolve any situation.

Enjoy!

Hello Legrand,

Thanks for the clarification, especially the last line.

davidsun
27-08-2019, 02:47 PM
Being in Bliss a bonze will not engage in an actual combat, as he or she does not see a need for it to resolve any situation.
Brought this to mind:

https://www.brainyquote.com/photos_tr/en/u/unknown/163459/unknown1-2x.jpg

Except some people do! :D

janielee
31-08-2019, 10:22 PM
Each sensation, would it be from the five senses of this body or using other senses to feel other worlds or planes of existence or of perception, just appear, forming a vortex of sensation and creating a point of perception, to then disappear after that when the sensation or perception vanishes… Like clouds in a blue sky.

I am not able to attach those different vortexes of sensations to a same center of perception. Time and space as “defined” by our limited body senses becomes a strange thing also, a strange invention from the mind. Memory also is very strange in the way that it can attach all those different types of perception.

When the sky is blue with no clouds or no sensations to define a point of perception, there is simply Nothing to which I can identify myself to. I don’t know if we can call this Nothing or One or else, and in which way its interconnected with everything. I, It, me is simply not there if there is no sensation to associate with it.

I’m not able to say if all those perceptions appearing are interconnected. To whom? to what? I don’t know.

On the other side, I’m not the All. I did not find a vortex of perception, would it be for just a fraction of a second, big enough and aware of each and every detail possible to be able to say that I have experienced the All.

I can say I’m almost surprised, to come back to this body as a center point of perception most of the time and just find this pulsating/breathing process fascinating.

A sensation is really the most fascinating thing creating with it a “me” each time.


You explain and share the closest to what I once lived as. Except even feelings would be lighter than a small wisp of smoke.

The craving

Do you have any words of advice?

Legrand
01-09-2019, 12:11 PM
You explain and share the closest to what I once lived as. Except even feelings would be lighter than a small wisp of smoke.

The craving

Do you have any words of advice?

Hello janielee,

Advice to who?

If I where to give you any kind of advice, I would limit you to what my imagination can create as a representation of who you are.

Enjoy!

Unseeking Seeker
11-09-2019, 02:55 AM
***

A quote from ‘Proof of Heaven’ by Dr. Eben Alexander based upon his NDE

“Even as my consciousness became identical with all and eternity, I sensed that I could not become entirely one with the creative, originating driver of all that is. At the heart of the most infinite oneness, there was still that duality.”

I concur. Not that it is praise from Caesar but nevertheless based upon direct experience.

***

davidsun
11-09-2019, 12:47 PM
***

A quote from ‘Proof of Heaven’ by Dr. Eben Alexander based upon his NDE

“Even as my consciousness became identical with all and eternity, I sensed that I could not become entirely one with the creative, originating driver of all that is. At the heart of the most infinite oneness, there was still that duality.”

I concur. Not that it is praise from Caesar but nevertheless based upon direct experience.

***
:thumbsup: Logical analysis (in this 'case', of what Jesus really meant) leads to the same Creature<=>Creator conclusion:

Many would rather simply believe that by saying “I and my Father are one” (John 10:30) Jesus unequivocally asserted that the gestalts of his and his/our Father’s spirits were absolutely identical, that they were literally one and the same aspect of Life in action; case closed. Such statement may certainly be read that way and, taken by itself, used to support God-concept co-opting narratives such as the one presented in the Nicene Creed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicene_Creed) which proclaims that the personage of Jesus was “begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made;” etc. But it may also be taken to mean that Jesus thought and felt that his and said Father-God’s spirits were dynamically integrated and functionally co-operational, and so united as ‘one’, metaphorically speaking, in terms of purpose and consequence – analogous to the way in which partners who aren’t identical may accomplish something they both desire when and as they work together in a complementary manner, which they couldn’t and so wouldn’t be able to creatively accomplish if each worked 'alone'. (This is what holism really means, by the way: “Holism (http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Holism) is based upon idea that: the whole is more than the sum of its constitutive parts, so reduction of the whole to its constitutive elements eliminates some factors which are present only when a being is seen as a whole. For example, synergy is generated through the interaction of parts but it does not exist if we take parts alone.”)

For those who have reached the point where they are capable of dispassionately pondering such matters, I submit that “The Father is in me, and I in him” (John 10:38) which Jesus added in the same speech-sequence (as “I and my Father are one”) clearly shows the latter understanding to be what he actually meant to communicate. Notwithstanding the meta-truth that every ‘feature’ of Creativity (Life, God, Reality, Being – however you wish to view and reference It) is an inseparably integral aspect of one all-inclusive phenomenon, in light of which any and all conceptual ‘divisions’ which distinguish aspects of It one from another may be seen to really just be navigational aides at best, this saying indicates that Jesus ‘saw’ that there was a dynamic, two-way flow-connection between the primally progenitive soul of ‘the Father’ and the consequentially co‑generative soul-constellation of ‘the Son’, such that the outflow from one functions as inflow in relation to the other in continuously ongoing outflow→inflow→ad infinitum fashion. Readers capable of engaging in abstract thought experiments may appreciate the kind of experience an observer walking lengthwise along the seemingly two‑sided ‘surface’ of a mobius strip (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Möbius_strip) would have and, if reasonably intelligent, sooner or later grok as analogically explaining the never‑ending ‘story’ of ever-ongoing Father↔Son Creation.

Unseeking Seeker
12-09-2019, 03:43 AM
***

There are many non-dual teachers offering a variety of examples. Ramana, Robert Adams, Swami Sarvapriya Nanda, Rupert Spira ... each better than the other! The idea is not to accept what they say on an intellectual level based upon their own direct realisation/s but rather to get to a point where we actually know the knowing by transforming or reawakening consciousness and so becoming. Beyond mind ... as Spira says awareness self-aware of awareness with there being nothing other than awareness (please don’t interpret it ... know this). :smile:

Living in self denial about the actuality of being as interconnectedness (for many it may not be even this ... just me-ness of mind-body) upon having actually experienced Oneness in the vibrant void of emptiness/fullness ... how may we affirm true Oneness if we do not feel as such in actuality of being (at this time)? Unless the idea is to merely theorise ...

Well, I’ll leave it at that without needlessly going into what Jesus meant when he said that he and his father are one (as one?) ... why stir the hornets nest? :biggrin:

Wheels within wheels am lost in a maze
Myriad of thoughts & images block my gaze
The concept seems clear, yet the truth elusive
I seek direct wisdom, not symbols allusive

***

davidsun
12-09-2019, 01:40 PM
Well, I’ll leave it at that without needlessly going into what Jesus meant when he said that he and his father are one (as one?) ... why stir the hornets nest? :biggrin:
No hornets here, Bro. Just a different set of concepts/words pertaining to the same subject. 'Seeing' it from different angles can (if one is willing to do so) help one know the THANG better, or at least know more :smile: about IT.

Wheels within wheels am lost in a maze
Myriad of thoughts & images block my gaze
The concept seems clear, yet the truth elusive
I seek direct wisdom, not symbols allusive
I would suggest that 'the maze' is a function all of your thinking and feeling 'convolutions'. Ask yourself why the 'solution' to this 'problem' is so 'elusive' for you. Look 'in', not 'out' or 'at', and wait (with faith!) for the 'answers' to 'come' to you. They will if you are receptive (you may have 'let go' of your own fear-based(?) 'resistance' in this regard).

Note: An 'unconflicted' farmer has no problem growing crops and feeding his/her critters. An 'unconflicted' engineer has no problem designing a bridge to cross a river. Nothing 'eludes' them such regards.)

Jyotir
12-09-2019, 03:05 PM
Wheels within wheels am lost in a maze
Myriad of thoughts & images block my gaze
The concept seems clear, yet the truth elusive
I seek direct wisdom, not symbols allusive


There is nothing inherently fear-based in that, but indicating the intrinsic limitations of mind, which is by nature conflicted.

That is not a problem for the complacent sleeper, but it is recognized upon awakening.

Indeed, that awakening comes about among other things by the very acknowledgement of that disparity and conflict, which seeks resolution in the higher view (e.g., “truth elusive”) - not in the errant justification of the mundane as sufficient in-and-of-itself.

~ J

Unseeking Seeker
13-09-2019, 02:49 AM
There is nothing inherently fear-based in that, but indicating the intrinsic limitations of mind, which is by nature conflicted.

That is not a problem for the complacent sleeper, but it is recognized upon awakening.

Indeed, that awakening comes about among other things by the very acknowledgement of that disparity and conflict, which seeks resolution in the higher view (e.g., “truth elusive”) - not in the errant justification of the mundane as sufficient in-and-of-itself.

~ J

***

Yes :icon_thumleft:

***

Miss Hepburn
13-09-2019, 11:00 PM
Gosh, Oneness has to be experienced...I fasted for 5 days, piously...that helped a lot!

Unseeking Seeker
14-09-2019, 03:04 AM
Gosh, Oneness has to be experienced...I fasted for 5 days, piously...that helped a lot!

***

That’s a teaser! Do tell us more :smile:

***

Miss Hepburn
14-09-2019, 03:10 PM
That’s a teaser! Do tell us more :smile:
Really? Well, I have 2 minutes...One, I ran into a friend on my street
in the evening, Florida,
gardenias and jasmine in the air...as I approached ..the waves of him, from him..met the waves coming from me ...like ripples...
they met before we got close enough to stop and chat...he got a huge contact high from me...and we twinkled together...seeing we were
one.
Vibrations are so cool to see..and the colors...
We are like swimming in jello...thus, a butterfly in Japan effects the breeze in California.
A person in the next car can be looking at you and you 'feel' to turn your head and you 2 smile at each other at the stop light in the evening. :)
Connection with each other is like being one.
When you perceive it...it is no longer intellectual.


But, more later...

guthrio
14-09-2019, 08:48 PM
***

That’s a teaser! Do tell us more :smile:

***

Unseeking Seeker,

...the teaser I enjoy most is waiting to experience just how the Creator actually brings forth the most "Unlikely Likeness" :smile: of all our needs through mysterious ways we could not consciously devise.

Sooooo much fun to anticipate! :hug3:

Unseeking Seeker
15-09-2019, 02:25 AM
Unseeking Seeker,

...the teaser I enjoy most is waiting to experience just how the Creator actually brings forth the most "Unlikely Likeness" :smile: of all our needs through mysterious ways we could not consciously devise.

Sooooo much fun to anticipate! :hug3:

***

Absolutely! :hug3:

***

Unseeking Seeker
15-09-2019, 02:29 AM
Really? Well, I have 2 minutes...One, I ran into a friend on my street
in the evening, Florida,
gardenias and jasmine in the air...as I approached ..the waves of him, from him..met the waves coming from me ...like ripples...
they met before we got close enough to stop and chat...he got a huge contact high from me...and we twinkled together...seeing we were
one.
Vibrations are so cool to see..and the colors...
We are like swimming in jello...thus, a butterfly in Japan effects the breeze in California.
A person in the next car can be looking at you and you 'feel' to turn your head and you 2 smile at each other at the stop light in the evening. :)
Connection with each other is like being one.
When you perceive it...it is no longer intellectual.


But, more later...

***

Double Wow!! :smile:

Keep the inspiration flowing!

***

r6r6
24-09-2019, 05:01 PM
Gosh, Oneness has to be experienced...I fasted for 5 days, piously...that helped a lot!
I fasted 3 days 2 or three times. What always stands out to me, was how after the first day was how much energy ---if not also feel goodness--- I had.

There is or was a small group of new englanders who intentionall keep then selfs hungry all the time, because of some data showing how when the body is starving some kinda of super-substance is produced to help sustain the body further along in life.

So their goal is to produce this super-substance in their bodies all of the time. Sorry I dont have link to the detailed specifics.

Another way to see this is that if a person is starving, any food becomes super-food for them as they will get energy. Sweets espescially do this, and I seem to recall some association or notation by Ghandi how special as it was when someone gave him a or some sweets.

Food and water become divine and connect us to the divinity of being ALIVE. Recall the movie ALIVE where the peruvian soccer players whose plane crashed in high altitude Andie mountains and to survive they ate their friends after friends perished.

SURVIVE is primary genetic drive of biological/soul life.

Oxgen { breath } is the primary animal drive. The body's genetic drive will kick in over all else including the children in order to get oxygen.


We may say that is a drive to stay connected to life and that some how relates to the more wholistic, finite, occupied space Universe.