The Rope is Mistaken for the Snake, What does this mean to you ?

[Joe Mc]

The Rope is mistaken for the Snake is a classical illusion that was popularised by Advaita Vedandists in India. Is this illusion useful ? Have you any views on what it means ?

[God-Like]

The Rope is mistaken for the Snake is a classical illusion that was popularised by Advaita Vedandists in India. Is this illusion useful ? Have you any views on what it means ?




I think that some use this analogy in order to use it in a certain way that encompasses the mind reality as not being as it seems to be.

What I would say is that the rope might be mistaken for a snake and vice versa but it has always been what it is.

The snake has always been a snake the rope has always been a rope so to use the analogy that reflects an illusion doesn't work for me, but it does show us how things are mistakenly perceived.


x dazzle x

[sky]

The Rope is mistaken for the Snake is a classical illusion that was popularised by Advaita Vedandists in India. Is this illusion useful ? Have you any views on what it means ?



It means I need to book an appointment with an Optition :smile:

[Joe Mc]

It means I need to book an appointment with a Optition :smile:

:biggrin: And who might this optician be ? Scratching my chin, God himself ? The Higher Self ? hahaha very insightful reply that no pun intended :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

[iamthat]

Patanjali's Yoga Sutras refer to five modifications of consciousness (Book I, 6-11):

1. Direct perception, based on fact and proof
2. Misperception - mistaking something for something else
3. Imaginary knowledge which has no substantial basis
4. Sleep which is the absence of perception
5. Memory which is the recollection of past perceptions.

The story of the rope and the snake is often used to illustrate the second modification - ie misperception.

Peace.

[FallingLeaves]

as usual I look at what things DO. Ropes are for climbing, tieing, other things... e.g. they are a beneficial thing to be used. OTOH snakes aren't so much liked, and many people are even afraid of them. So if you were to mistake a rope for a snake you would possibly avoid it instead of using it to help yourself out? And depending on the situation that misunderstanding could be disastrous...

[guthrio]

The Rope is mistaken for the Snake is a classical illusion that was popularised by Advaita Vedandists in India. Is this illusion useful ? Have you any views on what it means ?

Hi Joe Mc,

I had the occasion to use this "rope" analogy in the reference, below. Ironically, it just occurred to me that use of the words Rope or Snake, is really only useful if those who utilize them remember that the difference (and usefulness) of either becomes moot without understanding what they mean in context.

One person's "Rope" may not necessarily be another person's "Snake", right?

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1531663&postcount=19

[Shivani Devi]

The Rope is mistaken for the Snake is a classical illusion that was popularised by Advaita Vedandists in India. Is this illusion useful ? Have you any views on what it means ?
Namaste.

The Rope vs Snake analogy was used to illustrate the Advaita Vedantic term for Mithya or Mithyatva (false perception) as being in a relativist distinction from the general term of Maya or illusion which was used at the time.

It is an analagous representation of how our conditioned biases (e.g fear) also known as vasanas, can distort the perception of reality (Brahman) through sensory cognition...also called karmendriyas.

Thus, we are not experiencing an "illusion", but a distorted form of reality...mithya (which gave rise to the English word, myth).

This tale later became extrapopated in the form of The Six Blind Men and The Elephant...showing how false perception (Mithya) will remain thus, no matter how many mithyavadis (ignorant people) are involved and how human beings are very proud in their arrogance with their ability to "know" things...and as sad as it is, for many, their ego still is unable to admit that the "snake" is really a "rope" even after being shown thus.

[Shivani Devi]

Similarly, the human mind and sensory array will always display a selective preference towards a predetermined notion or held belief. This is called a confirmation bias.

For example, the first person will see the "rope" as a "snake" due to the fear vasana which alters perception through the karmendrias, so what is "rope" actually appears as "snake" and remains "snake" until such times as the person becomes convinced: "not snake...rope".

Now, in the dark (ignorance) a person may think the rope is a snake...another may come along who that person particularly dislikes and they will say "don't be ridiculous! that is not a snake, it is a rope!" however, because the person who sees the rope as a snake hates them, they will never believe it! yet, if a friend comes along and says the same thing, they will believe it without question...at what point did the truth change?

Some people will only believe what their guru says...what their teacher says...what their doctor says...

Now, I can (and often will) say exactly the same thing as their guru, teacher, doctor etc...but for some reason (I am still trying to fathom it) it is not true just because "I" said it...and yet, if anybody else who they love/respect says it, it tends to "gain truth" all of a sudden...was it "not true" before this? because when I point it out that I said exactly the same thing days ago, they deny that I even said it, which always means that they conveniently forgot I ever said it and NOT that I did not ever say it.

For "repeat offenders", I have covertly and secretly recorded these conversations...so when they are in full denial of either myself or themselves having said what they did, I play back the recording....then they will say that is not their voice! I must have found somebody else who sounded an incredibly a lot like them...I then resort to "voice recognition software" but they STILL deny it!

For such people, a snake is NEVER a rope, simply because they say so and anybody who believes differently can go to hell.

Which leaves me with one lingering question....why oh why do I seem to attract these types of people into my life? what bad karma did I do?

[Joe Mc]

Patanjali's Yoga Sutras refer to five modifications of consciousness (Book I, 6-11):

1. Direct perception, based on fact and proof
2. Misperception - mistaking something for something else
3. Imaginary knowledge which has no substantial basis
4. Sleep which is the absence of perception
5. Memory which is the recollection of past perceptions.

The story of the rope and the snake is often used to illustrate the second modification - ie misperception.

Peace.

Thank you for sharing this knowledge. I really respect what it says and it's useful too. I've heard of Patanjali of course and glanced at some of his stuff in the dark and distant past. He is a very respected teacher and his knowledge i would say echoes with the reverberations of his own culture and tradition and personal insights of course. Thank you very much for sharing, most kind. Namaste.

* in my original question i misspelled the word Allusion using the word Illusion instead. Apologies.

[Joe Mc]

as usual I look at what things DO. Ropes are for climbing, tieing, other things... e.g. they are a beneficial thing to be used. OTOH snakes aren't so much liked, and many people are even afraid of them. So if you were to mistake a rope for a snake you would possibly avoid it instead of using it to help yourself out? And depending on the situation that misunderstanding could be disastrous...

I like your take on it, very Tarotesque. Thanks for sharing.:smile:

[Shivani Devi]

Thank you for sharing this knowledge. I really respect what it says and it's useful too. I've heard of Patanjali of course and glanced at some of his stuff in the dark and distant past. He is a very respected teacher and his knowledge i would say echoes with the reverberations of his own culture and tradition and personal insights of course. Thank you very much for sharing, most kind. Namaste.

* in my original question i misspelled the word Allusion using the word Illusion instead. Apologies.You are very welcome and as a contemporary of Patanjali, I am glad you also found my contributions to be particularly useful.

Thank you for taking the time to respond to me and your mispelling is forgiven. Namaste

[Joe Mc]

Hi Joe Mc,

I had the occasion to use this "rope" analogy in the reference, below. Ironically, it just occurred to me that use of the words Rope or Snake, is really only useful if those who utilize them remember that the difference (and usefulness) of either becomes moot without understanding what they mean in context.

One person's "Rope" may not necessarily be another person's "Snake", right?

Reference: http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1531663&postcount=19

Hi Guthrio,

Thanks for your reply, i haven't had occasion yet to read the article concerning Christianity, i just skimmed through it. Do you think you have been found mixing up religious illusions ? lol and what might be the punishment in such circumstances ? Just joking, i was thinking of mixing metaphors or something like that, i don't really know what mixing metaphors means lol.

Anyways the parallel that im intuiting from initially reading your post is that the 'Eastern Mind' in terms of the Hindu tradition at least seems apt to deliver a short sharp shock to what we might call the 'Intellectual Mind'. So what we might call our 'Sinful Nature' in the Christian tradition is arrested momentarily through the use of an Allusion to point out our limited thinking or sinful nature.

Obviously the rope and the snake allusion doesn't quite fall into the Zen tradition especially the Rinzai school ...where questions such as the sound of One Hand Clapping or Show me your Original Face are meant to instigate in the seeker a shift of some kind.

So these allusions like the Snake and the Rope seem to me to have the flavour of arresting the egoic mind lets say in a way that Christian writings don't and are maybe not meant to ? But i can't help but take a saying like
Its harder for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle..., and there must be many more ..and see those sayings as Allusions which are meant to lead to a wider and different understanding ? Anyways Guthrio thanks for the opportunity to rant a bit lol...
Best Regards
Joe

[Joe Mc]

Namaste.

The Rope vs Snake analogy was used to illustrate the Advaita Vedantic term for Mithya or Mithyatva (false perception) as being in a relativist distinction from the general term of Maya or illusion which was used at the time.

It is an analagous representation of how our conditioned biases (e.g fear) also known as vasanas, can distort the perception of reality (Brahman) through sensory cognition...also called karmendriyas.

Thus, we are not experiencing an "illusion", but a distorted form of reality...mithya (which gave rise to the English word, myth).

This tale later became extrapopated in the form of The Six Blind Men and The Elephant...showing how false perception (Mithya) will remain thus, no matter how many mithyavadis (ignorant people) are involved and how human beings are very proud in their arrogance with their ability to "know" things...and as sad as it is, for many, their ego still is unable to admit that the "snake" is really a "rope" even after being shown thus.

Excellent thanks for sharing. I like that word Mithya and the way you explain it's etymology. The allusion of the Six Blind Men and the Elephant I've heard but it's great that you point out about the 'many' side of it ie. no matter how many people get involved in trying to solve 'the problem' it won't make any difference. I saw an example of this recently on a tv show, ignorance literally enveloping the audience, like a fire spreading or something, strange to see. Thanks for mentioning the word vasana or vasanas, it's a fascinating term and concept and reality and i aught to read and study some more about it.

Recently i've come across the concept and concepts of Sravana Manana Nididhyasana. Very good indeed and useful to understand and realise. Would you know off hand when this concept was popularised if that is correct to say and by whom ? Thanks for sharing :)

[Joe Mc]

Similarly, the human mind and sensory array will always display a selective preference towards a predetermined notion or held belief. This is called a confirmation bias.

For example, the first person will see the "rope" as a "snake" due to the fear vasana which alters perception through the karmendrias, so what is "rope" actually appears as "snake" and remains "snake" until such times as the person becomes convinced: "not snake...rope".

Now, in the dark (ignorance) a person may think the rope is a snake...another may come along who that person particularly dislikes and they will say "don't be ridiculous! that is not a snake, it is a rope!" however, because the person who sees the rope as a snake hates them, they will never believe it! yet, if a friend comes along and says the same thing, they will believe it without question...at what point did the truth change?

Some people will only believe what their guru says...what their teacher says...what their doctor says...

Now, I can (and often will) say exactly the same thing as their guru, teacher, doctor etc...but for some reason (I am still trying to fathom it) it is not true just because "I" said it...and yet, if anybody else who they love/respect says it, it tends to "gain truth" all of a sudden...was it "not true" before this? because when I point it out that I said exactly the same thing days ago, they deny that I even said it, which always means that they conveniently forgot I ever said it and NOT that I did not ever say it.

For "repeat offenders", I have covertly and secretly recorded these conversations...so when they are in full denial of either myself or themselves having said what they did, I play back the recording....then they will say that is not their voice! I must have found somebody else who sounded an incredibly a lot like them...I then resort to "voice recognition software" but they STILL deny it!

For such people, a snake is NEVER a rope, simply because they say so and anybody who believes differently can go to hell.

Which leaves me with one lingering question....why oh why do I seem to attract these types of people into my life? what bad karma did I do?

Reading very briefly and without much time. It's fascinating that you point out about the facts remaining the same but the message not being received, the message is delivered but the message is rejected because of the messenger ?

I can think of something i came across in Buddhism and it refers to clinging to rites and rituals. It is regarded as a fetter which binds the seeker. So perhaps in this context those peeps who will not hear.....That the Snake is definitely a Rope but will only hear it from somebody who is heavily involved in rites and rituals are as you allude to ignorant albeit in a very subtle way. This is not to deny the value and beauty and moksha of all rituals and rites and gurus :)

Hopefully you have been able to help these said persons and they come to you unconsciously for guidance and help. Obviously they don't always like what they hear :biggrin: such is the path of spiritual development i suppose. Thanks for sharing sorry if i was obtuse in any way or dismissive. Thank you once again.

[Shivani Devi]

Excellent thanks for sharing. I like that word Mithya and the way you explain it's etymology. The allusion of the Six Blind Men and the Elephant I've heard but it's great that you point out about the 'many' side of it ie. no matter how many people get involved in trying to solve 'the problem' it won't make any difference. I saw an example of this recently on a tv show, ignorance literally enveloping the audience, like a fire spreading or something, strange to see. Thanks for mentioning the word vasana or vasanas, it's a fascinating term and concept and reality and i aught to read and study some more about it.

Recently i've come across the concept and concepts of Sravana Manana Nididhyasana. Very good indeed and useful to understand and realise. Would you know off hand when this concept was popularised if that is correct to say and by whom ? Thanks for sharing :)Thank you for the response and your kind words. I was beginning to believe that my posts weren't showing up again and that the rope was a snake myself.lol

There are two factors which clarify the snake vs rope situation...light and time.

Light can be shone in that darkness, but it also takes time for the realisation to occur. For some, this may be instantaneous, for others, it may take many lifetimes.

As for your question about Sravana Manana Nidhidyasana, I have not encountered this personally, so I cannot offer assistance, however I am up for doing some reading and homework myself.

[Miss Hepburn]

... it does show us how things are mistakenly perceived.
Pure and simple.

And what I always say...Nothing you see with your eyes open is real.

(Great posts from all here!)

[Gem]

(Turns out it was a worm)

[Joe Mc]

Pure and simple.

And what I always say...Nothing you see with your eyes open is real.

(Great posts from all here!)

Absolutely !

[Miss Hepburn]

Joe, Ok ,I'm going to make a confession here :icon_eek: :tongue:...I'm finding it harder
and harder to carry on with people that actually think a chair is a chair...a tree is a tree.


I'm getting more like 'Lucy' everyday!
(Please, Everyone here on this thread esp, see that movie if you haven't!!)

[Joe Mc]

Thank you for the response and your kind words. I was beginning to believe that my posts weren't showing up again and that the rope was a snake myself.lol

There are two factors which clarify the snake vs rope situation...light and time.

Light can be shone in that darkness, but it also takes time for the realisation to occur. For some, this may be instantaneous, for others, it may take many lifetimes.

As for your question about Sravana Manana Nidhidyasana, I have not encountered this personally, so I cannot offer assistance, however I am up for doing some reading and homework myself.

Yes I relate alot to what you say there regarding light, there is no doubting that illumination could be gradual or sudden apparently, relatively speaking at least..all godo stuff :) Best Regards :)

[Joe Mc]

Joe, Ok ,I'm going to make a confession here :icon_eek: :tongue:...I'm finding it harder
and harder to carry on with people that actually think a chair is a chair...a tree is a tree.


I'm getting more like 'Lucy' everyday!
(Please, Everyone here on this thread esp, see that movie if you haven't!!)


I feel a smile welling up inside ...a prelude to the giggles. Is it not the problem that the peeps who believe the rope is the rope and the chair is the chair carry that on into 'Life' as we know it ? This could be huge speculation on my behalf and maybe im being deluded and cruel but is it not the case that ...Chair is chair people ..find many ways to keep themselves in the game. The game that says a tree is a tree and im better than you and if you dont believe me check your daily chronicle :biggrin: Hey i had to say something !!!
Namaste to you nevertheless ! :smile:

[Miss Hepburn]

And to continue...I mean people that get way full of anxiety...why...cuz they have
the Thought Syndrome of 'the chair is a chair', the rope is a real rope...they just can not grasp -

1. they have created everything around them....
2. they can change everything around them...
3. everything around them is to bring them to a point of wanting to be closer
to Self-realization or God, whatever one calls it...so,
therefore, with insight they can 'see' the why of every situation and flow better...learn from it.

It's hard picking up the pieces of people that refuse to see the rope is more than a rope!
(I am a care giver now of my non-spiritual sister. Oy vey....ha...lol...and I do see the perfection.) :wink:

[Joe Mc]

And to continue...I mean people that get way full of anxiety...why...cuz they have
the Thought Syndrome of 'the chair is a chair', the rope is a real rope...they just can not grasp -

1. they have created everything around them....
2. they can change everything around them...
3. everything around them is to bring them to a point of wanting to be closer
to Self-realization or God, whatever one calls it...so,
therefore, with insight they can 'see' the why of every situation and flow better...learn from it.

It's hard picking up the pieces of people that refuse to see the rope is more than a rope!
(I am a care giver now of my non-spiritual sister. Oy vey....ha...lol...and I do see the perfection.) :wink:



Oy vey indeed ! that made me smile. Yes at least we have some vantage point where we can see this type of behaviour, my father is getting old now, suffering ill health etc. He has wisdom no doubt about it but sometimes you can see the old logic that he used to keep the world together falling apart as he grows older. It can make you a bit angry to see but hey ..its totally forgivable and therefore it merits compassion and patience lol.

Also perhaps I have ideas about what is suppose to happen in old age ? and maybe you have preconceived notions of what way sick people react ? but sounds like your doing a great job though. Best Regards Joe.

[Miss Hepburn]

This rope and snake thing is fun...
It reminds me of how it is to use the mind when looking at those
3D prints, with the hidden giraffes in the jumble of patterns.

We can look at anything...a chair, a tree, a person, a doggie and just with our minds
becoming more 'abstract' or expanded, along with our knowledge of quantum physics now
we can 'turn' anything into what it really is in Reality.

Sure, we can see or imagine the atoms together forming the fur and the
consciousness wagging the tail...
but deeper still to inside the atom.

All of this is unreal...knock on wood...unreal...just atoms glued together to appear as a table.
But, what is holding all these atoms together?
What is this power, this force more powerful than invisible gravity?

This is what we are able to wrap our minds around with this human life..
this human awareness...we have such ability to transcend!
We can play and enjoy ice cream while here...but there is so much MORE.:hug3:It's wonderful, isn't it? :smile:

[neil]

This is what we are able to wrap our minds around with this human life..
this human awareness...we have such ability to transcend!
We can play and enjoy ice cream while here...but there is so much MORE.:hug3:It's wonderful, isn't it? :smile:

Or you you could say this.....

* This is what we are able to wrap our minds around with this "ORGANIC TYPE OF SPIRITUAL" life..

*this "SPIRITUAL" awareness...we have such ability to "GROW & DEVELOPE"!

We can play and enjoy ice cream while here...but there is so much more.
-----------------------------------------------

Because, are we not, spiritual Soul beings..ONLY...& connected to an Earthly sensory & processing unit of flesh & blood....the sentient awareness & intelligence originates & lies only within the Spiritual Soul being of which we are.
The flesh only receives & transforms information & delivers the transformed information to us the sentient aware, thinking Soul being, via the silver code interface, when we receive the information & respond to the information, then our response is sent back to the flesh, & of which the flesh utilizes in order to operate the way that we want it to, so that we can interact with the Earthly environment.

& we are standing on a planet made of spiritual matter & the spiritual matter is constructed in such a way, that it can opperate as an organic system.

And this organic system is housed/situated within the spiritual universe along side the Heavens on the same plane/realm...all though the two are many, many, many untold GAZILLIONS of light years apart.

..hi Miss H...as you know, I am only to happy to be all technical, specific, indepth...smiles.

[Joe Mc]

A coiled rope's speckled color and coiling are similar to those of a snake, and when the rope is perceived in a dim area, the thought arises, “This is a snake.” As for the rope, at that time when it is seen to be a snake, the collection and parts of the rope are not even in the slightest way a snake. Therefore, that snake is merely set up by conceptuality.

In the same way, when the thought “I” arises in dependence upon mind and body, nothing within mind and body—neither the collection which is a continuum of earlier and later moments, nor the collection of the parts at one time, nor the separate parts, nor the continuum of any of the separate parts—is in even the slightest way the “I.” Also there is not even the slightest something that is a different entity from mind and body that is apprehendable as the “I.” Consequently, the “I” is merely set up by conceptuality in dependence upon mind and body; it is not established by way of its own entity.

Tsongkhapa - Founder of the Gelugpa school of Tibetan Buddhism, quoted by his Holiness the Dalai Lama on a teaching about 'Emptiness and Existence.'