Purgatory

[Lynn]

Purgatory

What does it mean ?

Is it a process of “purification”

Is it a time of “temporary punishment”

We do know that notion dates to the very start of Christianity a time when man was turning from the path of the worship of “gods” to the idea and worship of one “God” . One is taken back to the time of the Roman’s , a time when there was worships of many Roman god’s and to view the Roman Emperor as divine. Too we have this time to thank for something called “Taxes”. The Fiscus Iudaicus ( like our tax agencies ) but this one was set to collect taxes for the Jew’s in the Roman Empire.

This was a time of great changes and great struggles. To go against the Roman Empire was seen as an act of what is called “Heretical” in the more modern word “Heresy”, it goes to the clash of one belief to another where there are conflicts in the very “Dogma” established. Dogma being the belief held by a Religion. It is not to be disputed of put in doubts. Carved in stone so to speak. Thus it was too a time of Religious wars and many deaths.
　

Having now established the path to the idea of “Purgatory” what does it mean, well it is believed to be a place that Soul’s be dispatched to that are not yet ready for the entry to Haven. If one is to see it on the level of a place one is dispatched for the “purifications” then it be like a hospital in a sense, where one would be given care and a school where one would receive teachings and lessons. A place where the issues of that very Soul are examined and wounds and sufferings healed, and issues cleared away.

If one is to view “purgatory” as “temporary punishment” then what and whom decides this ?

It would be said that God does, but purpose would it truly serve ?

As time has moved ever forward so have the notions on what “Purgatory” might well be or mean. It comes from the Latin “Purgatorium” what almost has the sound of what we would now call a jail or asylum. Thoughts on the suffering after one’s death, (even if it be said to be temporary), the ides of some sort of torments. If there be such a place that some that are thought to do bad deeds in life or even Sin, then there too must be someone or some force that governs when one has done one’s dues and is to be set free to go forth to Heaven. In the Christian faith that would be Angels.

Is “Purgatory” a place, and where did this idea come from ? It might well date to when man first started to pay honour and respect to their dead. To prey over the dead, or do a ceremony to make sure that one did make it to the “ Afterlife” We can look to Ancient Egypt for this elaborate practice of honoring their Faros. There are many ancient traditions we can look to where the dead were cared for in a careful way to make one’s journey over a successful one.

Was the idea of “Purgatory” put maybe in place for man to keep to a solid and true path in his life, to do the work and hear the word of God ?


It is thought that when one dies there might well be a time of judgment ( this can be more Catholic in nature of teachings ) where it is decided if one moves on or if one is stuck to wonder the Earth Plane for a time. This is where the notion of the counter to a Heaven comes into play, that place of Hell. Hell is said to be a pit of fire where one’s Soul is condemned to be in forever more. One is said to have gone there when one breaks from his path with God, but too it is later said that one that has ( in Catholicism) done Sin against God and has not received absolution goes forth to Hell. Would a LOVing God whom is said to have created all in His image too create in such a place as Hell. More Hell might well be mere Metaphor (the concept of understanding one thing in terms of another).

That place put forth to keep man on his path with God ?

This idea is one that travel though many a faith and belief system.


What are one’s thoughts on Purgatory does one feel it’s temporary punishment or purification or both maybe ?

Is Purgatory a place or more just a feeling of transitions for the Soul ?

Would a God that is said to have created man in His image too create such a place as Heaven, Purgatory and Hell ?

　
　



Lynn
　

[Shim]

Would a God that is said to have created man in His image too create such a place as Heaven, Purgatory and Hell ?
　

In regards to hell, why would a Just God not create hell? Are they not already separated from God by their unbelief and action (whether they even understand the concept of Justice)? Why not give the sinner what they want? That is, eternal separation from a Holy God?

Matthew 18 describes an everlasting fire. Nobody talked more on the subject of hell than Jesus Christ.

In regards to purgatory:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is often cited in defense of Purgatory, where the concluding phrase is "yet it will be like an escape through fire."

Purgatory denies one of the fundamental teachings of the NT--that Jesus' death on the cross atoned for all our sin, not simply original sin (Romans 3:21-26; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Because of that atonement, though we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, those who have placed faith in Christ will never face condemnation (Romans 5:1; 8:1;2 Corinthians 5:10).

[Perry J]

Purgatory and hell are concepts, as you say, from the Roman Catholic Church, made to scare people to go to their churches. This church was from the beginning an extension of the Roman Empire, where the Emperor already was God on Earth (make no mistake: The pope is, too. And the goal of this church of antichrist is global dominion).

This of course is the dogma of the outer God, which opposes Jesus’ teaching that God is within.

An outer God makes it possible for people to place themselves between people and their God, whereby they promoted themselves as the only channels to reach God. Hence, the concept of heresy, blasphemy, was soon invented. It’s heresy to challenge people who want to be gods, because that would be a threat to them.
See what a perfect control mechanism this is? An elite grasped total control over human beings by presenting themselves as representatives of God, whom could condemn people to purgatory or hell – or save them! And we all come from this. This terror is still implanted deeply within us.

Purgatory in the other meaning (God within) is the violet flame that consumes all that’s not you, everything which is not part of your true Identity as a child of God. This is not a flame of pain.

[Baldr44]

Pope Leo X (11 December 1475 – 1 December 1521) was Pope from 1513 to his death in 1521. He was the last non-priest to be elected Pope
he sold indulgences to help in the reconstruction of St.Peters basilica. Of course he came up with the idea in order to get people to pay indulgences for the release of those stuck in purgatory.

To fulfil the teaching office of their pastoral ministry, the Apostles and their successors, the bishops, are given a gift of infallibility in matters of faith and morals. The Pope, as head of the college of bishops, enjoys this gift of infallibility in a unique sense. As pastor and supreme teacher of all the faithful, and charged with the responsibility to confirm his brothers and sisters in the faith, the Pope may proclaim as definitive a point of doctrine touching faith and morals.

[theophilus]

Purgatory and hell are concepts, as you say, from the Roman Catholic Church, made to scare people to go to their churches.This is true of purgatory but not of hell. Jesus spoke of hell a long time before there was any church in Rome.

[Perry J]

This is true of purgatory but not of hell. Jesus spoke of hell a long time before there was any church in Rome.

If Jesus spoke of it, it was a metaphor adjusted to the state of consciousness of the people 2000 years ago. Hell exists, but not as a place of eternal fire where you burn forever (this was promoted by the catholic inquisitors to be interpreted LITERALLY)
Jesus uses parables and metaphors. Nevertheless he is interpreted literally. This is a great tragedy.
If you are open-minded, here's what Jesus says about hell 2000 years later:
http://www.askrealjesus.com/askrealjesus/jesusanswers/spiritrealm/truthheavenandhell.html

[Shabda]

If Jesus spoke of it, it was a metaphor adjusted to the state of consciousness of the people 2000 years ago. Hell exists, but not as a place of eternal fire where you burn forever (this was promoted by the catholic inquisitors to be interpreted LITERALLY)
Jesus uses parables and metaphors. Nevertheless he is interpreted literally. This is a great tragedy.
If you are open-minded, here's what Jesus says about hell 2000 years later:
http://www.askrealjesus.com/askrealjesus/jesusanswers/spiritrealm/truthheavenandhell.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.askrealjesus.com%2 Faskrealjesus%2Fjesusanswers%2Fspiritrealm%2Ftruth heavenandhell.html)
this is true, the concept of hell come from the Jewish Sheol which means "grave", "pit", or "abyss"...

[tragblack]

Neat website, Perry J.

[Mind's Eye]

In regards to hell, why would a Just God not create hell? Are they not already separated from God by their unbelief and action (whether they even understand the concept of Justice)? Why not give the sinner what they want? That is, eternal separation from a Holy God?

Matthew 18 describes an everlasting fire. Nobody talked more on the subject of hell than Jesus Christ.

In regards to purgatory:

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is often cited in defense of Purgatory, where the concluding phrase is "yet it will be like an escape through fire."

Purgatory denies one of the fundamental teachings of the NT--that Jesus' death on the cross atoned for all our sin, not simply original sin (Romans 3:21-26; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Because of that atonement, though we will all stand before the judgment seat of Christ, those who have placed faith in Christ will never face condemnation (Romans 5:1; 8:1;2 Corinthians 5:10).

You may want to consider why God, (who is said to be all knowing and all loving,) created a being that would eventually rebel and become Satan; This being of course, was the origin of what we call evil and sin.

What happened with this being we call Satan? Did the all loving all knowing God knowingly create this being, hence actually creating what he knew would be evil. Or was he blind sided because he doesn't know everything and was sucker punched by one of his created being when it decided to turn against him?

Then we must ask ourselves; If God created Satan knowingly, then is it fair or just to roast and torture people for all eternity for being tempted by the evil that he created? Isn't that like offering a child a snack you don't want it to have and then punishing it for taking the snack?

But what if God made a huge mistake and created a ticking time bomb that would eventually become the Devil? What if God didn't see it coming? Then is he going to burn people alive for his mistake? Either way, God created the evil that brought sin, temptation and all of those terrible things to mankind.... So then, doesn't God also deserve to be punished in hell for being the maker of all evil??? Why does he get to create it, unleash it, let roam around the cosmos tempting people, leading them away from God... and then punish them for falling into the trap that he ultimately made. That is not just, that is unjust. That is not love, it is demented and cruel. And if all this be the case, then as I said, doesn't God deserve hell along with all of these fallen angels and sinful men?

Put a little logic to this argument... think about it. It is not an attack on God, it is a serious look at some of the things we were taught to believe about the Divine Spirit.

Let's get a little real folks.

[theophilus]

You may want to consider why God, (who is said to be all knowing and all loving,) created a being that would eventually rebel and become Satan; This being of course, was the origin of what we call evil and sin.God is infinite but our minds are limited so we can't possible expect to understand why God does what he does. Since God is good and wise we can know that he has a good reason even if we can't understand what that reason is. Ephesians 3:10 tells us one reason God had for creation:God created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.

How and why the creation shows his wisdom is something we can't understand while we are in this life and in fact it isn't necessary for us to understand it. If we fully obey God the things we don't understand now will be made clear to us in the future.For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1 Corinthians 13:12 ESV)

[Chrysaetos]

If our minds are limited then we cannot know what or who god is, nor can we know whether there is a god. Let's not even get into religious books and authorities. http://www.zeldauniverse.net/forums/images/smilies/cookiemonster.gif
If Jesus spoke of it, it was a metaphor adjusted to the state of consciousness of the people 2000 years ago. How can you be so sure about what a man meant with the concept of hell 2000 years ago? The man didn't wrote the books.
If you are open-minded, here's what Jesus says about hell 2000 years later:http://www.askrealjesus.com/askrealjesus/jesusanswers/spiritrealm/truthheavenandhell.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.spiritualforums.com %2525252Fvb%2525252Fredir.php%2525253Flink%2525253 Dhttp%252525253A%252525252F%252525252Fwww.askrealj esus.com%252525252Faskrealjesus%252525252Fjesusans wers%252525252Fspiritrealm%252525252Ftruthheavenan dhell.html)I don't consider it open-minded to believe a website saying it has the ''real Jesus''..

[Mind's Eye]

God is infinite but our minds are limited so we can't possible expect to understand why God does what he does. Since God is good and wise we can know that he has a good reason even if we can't understand what that reason is. Ephesians 3:10 tells us one reason God had for creation:God created all things, so that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.


How and why the creation shows his wisdom is something we can't understand while we are in this life and in fact it isn't necessary for us to understand it. If we fully obey God the things we don't understand now will be made clear to us in the future.For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1 Corinthians 13:12 ESV)





Think about what you just said; God did a whole bunch of stuff that we don't know about and cannot even comprehend.. Yet if we break or reject any of these secret rules, (that we may not even grasp with our finite minds,) we get a free trip to hell. And in the meantime, we get battered, beaten and tempted by the devil that he made.

This makes God sound like a game show host that has a severe mental problem.

"Hey, I created this game but I am not go to tell you all the rules. You may not even understand what your doing but just roll the dice and play. If you foul up, you go to hell.. If you happen to blunder across the finish line after a grueling game.. I'll tell you what it was all for."

[Shim]

You may want to consider why God, (who is said to be all knowing and all loving,) created a being that would eventually rebel and become Satan; This being of course, was the origin of what we call evil and sin.

What happened with this being we call Satan? Did the all loving all knowing God knowingly create this being, hence actually creating what he knew would be evil. Or was he blind sided because he doesn't know everything and was sucker punched by one of his created being when it decided to turn against him?

Then we must ask ourselves; If God created Satan knowingly, then is it fair or just to roast and torture people for all eternity for being tempted by the evil that he created? Isn't that like offering a child a snack you don't want it to have and then punishing it for taking the snack?

But what if God made a huge mistake and created a ticking time bomb that would eventually become the Devil? What if God didn't see it coming? Then is he going to burn people alive for his mistake? Either way, God created the evil that brought sin, temptation and all of those terrible things to mankind.... So then, doesn't God also deserve to be punished in hell for being the maker of all evil??? Why does he get to create it, unleash it, let roam around the cosmos tempting people, leading them away from God... and then punish them for falling into the trap that he ultimately made. That is not just, that is unjust. That is not love, it is demented and cruel. And if all this be the case, then as I said, doesn't God deserve hell along with all of these fallen angels and sinful men?

Put a little logic to this argument... think about it. It is not an attack on God, it is a serious look at some of the things we were taught to believe about the Divine Spirit.

Let's get a little real folks.

Was Lucifer the first to receive free will?

[Mind's Eye]

Was Lucifer the first to receive free will?

It's the get God out of jail free card with the free will play... But it does not answer the question as to why God created a being, (with free will,) that he knew would tempt and ruin of his whole creation.

So the question remains; Before there was anything, there was God. He knew everything and so he knew that when he created this "Lucifer with free will" it would wreak havok on his creation and mankind.... yet he did it anyway... way in the beginning before man ever was. Why would an all knowing, all loving God do such a thing?

[Baldr44]

It's the get God out of jail free card with the free will play... But it does not answer the question as to why God created a being, (with free will,) that he knew would tempt and ruin of his whole creation.

So the question remains; Before there was anything, there was God. He knew everything and so he knew that when he created this "Lucifer with free will" it would wreak havok on his creation and mankind.... yet he did it anyway... way in the beginning before man ever was. Why would an all knowing, all loving God do such a thing?

There is far more to the universe than earth and it's unworthy inhabitants. We are like a grain of sand compared to the billions upon billions of objects in the universe. Actually before there was anything, there was Source. We are infinate consciousness beings or individual units of consciousness. We will never die, we pass from one life existence to the next. We are also multidimensional, we are not just here in this reality but we permeate the entire universe.

[Shim]

It's the get God out of jail free card with the free will play... But it does not answer the question as to why God created a being, (with free will,) that he knew would tempt and ruin of his whole creation.

So the question remains; Before there was anything, there was God. He knew everything and so he knew that when he created this "Lucifer with free will" it would wreak havok on his creation and mankind.... yet he did it anyway... way in the beginning before man ever was. Why would an all knowing, all loving God do such a thing?

I can see how you would consider free will to be the get out of jail free card. After all God's will is perfect, it is the soul of man that has been tainted by sin. I can also see why people would think that God would never create a hell and cast them into the eternal flames. Genesis 6:5-7 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." What event had occurred soon thereafter?

Romans 9:22-24 "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

If behind the whole process there is the selection and rejection of God, how can God possibly blame those who have rejected him? Surely the fault is not theirs at all, but God’s. Paul’s answer is blunt almost to the point of crudity. He says that no one has any right to argue with God. When a potter makes a pot, it cannot talk back; the potter has absolute power over it. Out of the one lump of clay, it is possible to make one object for special purpose and another for an ordinary purpose, and the clay has nothing to do with it and has no right whatever to protest. It is one thing to say that God used an evil situation to bring good out of it; it is quite another thing to say that he created it to produce good in the end.

Any thoughts?

Free will-- a theory untested is not reality. It began with the angels. Did it not? A get out of jail free card, I think not.

Let's look at it from a different angle, from the way of obedience here upon the earth. After all angels are strictly obedient to God, and only a limited number of angels had followed Lucifer. We could say that of the disciples, there too was one that had followed free will. Judas Iscariot had free will, some will argue that he was predestined. But many will argue that free will always supersedes it.

In the way of obedience from men to God:

John 17:6-8 (King James Version)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."


For an example, discipleship is based on realization that Jesus came forth from God and are those who keep God’s word as they hear it in Jesus. Discipleship is something which is destined. If we love someone, we are always dreaming of that person’s future and planning for greatness; but the dream and the plan can be frustrated. The Pharisees believed in fate, but they also believed in free will. One of their great sayings was: ‘Everything is decreed except for the fear of God.’ God has his plan, his dream, his destiny for each one of us; and our tremendous responsibility is that we can accept or reject it. As someone has said: ‘Fate is what we are compelled to do; destiny is what we are meant to do.’

Any thoughts?

[Apakhana Akshobhya]

Hell is not a geographical place that "God" sends you when you are bad, it is simply the inability to receive the truth.

When the lower parts of our Being can not reconcile with the Higher aspects then we experience what the idea fo Hell attempts to describe.

[Mind's Eye]

I can see how you would consider free will to be the get out of jail free card. After all God's will is perfect, it is the soul of man that has been tainted by sin. I can also see why people would think that God would never create a hell and cast them into the eternal flames. Genesis 6:5-7 "And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually." What event had occurred soon thereafter?

Romans 9:22-24 "What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?"

If behind the whole process there is the selection and rejection of God, how can God possibly blame those who have rejected him? Surely the fault is not theirs at all, but God’s. Paul’s answer is blunt almost to the point of crudity. He says that no one has any right to argue with God. When a potter makes a pot, it cannot talk back; the potter has absolute power over it. Out of the one lump of clay, it is possible to make one object for special purpose and another for an ordinary purpose, and the clay has nothing to do with it and has no right whatever to protest. It is one thing to say that God used an evil situation to bring good out of it; it is quite another thing to say that he created it to produce good in the end.

Any thoughts?

Free will-- a theory untested is not reality. It began with the angels. Did it not? A get out of jail free card, I think not.

Let's look at it from a different angle, from the way of obedience here upon the earth. After all angels are strictly obedient to God, and only a limited number of angels had followed Lucifer. We could say that of the disciples, there too was one that had followed free will. Judas Iscariot had free will, some will argue that he was predestined. But many will argue that free will always supersedes it.

In the way of obedience from men to God:

John 17:6-8 (King James Version)

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me."


For an example, discipleship is based on realization that Jesus came forth from God and are those who keep God’s word as they hear it in Jesus. Discipleship is something which is destined. If we love someone, we are always dreaming of that person’s future and planning for greatness; but the dream and the plan can be frustrated. The Pharisees believed in fate, but they also believed in free will. One of their great sayings was: ‘Everything is decreed except for the fear of God.’ God has his plan, his dream, his destiny for each one of us; and our tremendous responsibility is that we can accept or reject it. As someone has said: ‘Fate is what we are compelled to do; destiny is what we are meant to do.’

Any thoughts?

Some people will say that it is futile to quote scripture on such a topic, because scripture is flawed. They say this because we see God having very human traits; he is angry, he is jealous, he seems not to know everything - when Adam and Eve are tempted, the all knowing God asks questions, "Adam, why did you hide yourself from me?" "Who told you you were naked?" Who gave you of the forbidden fruit to eat?"Would not God know the answer to these questions?

What about in ther New testemant: Joseph is warned in a dream by an angel not to return to isreal after the census, because the king is seeking to kill the baby Jesus.

Then later, an angel appears to Joseph and tells him to return to his home because those who seek the childs life are dead.

Once Joseph gets near home, Joseph is warned in a dream again to not return to his home town because the kings son is ruling and will seek the childs life.

Didn't God know all this before Joseph got near his home town?

And then there are those in christianity that believe that the story of Job is the answer to it all; Satan tells God to smite Job, (who is the richest man in the east,) and Job will curse God and die. At first God says no... but then later he changes his mind and let's Satan smite Job with many trials and even illness. Many say this shows the test of humanity, Satan says if mankind is smited and tempted, they will turn their backs on God, curse him and die, or even follow Satan.

So what does this say? God made a back room bet with evil incarnate to "test" man and see how loyal he would be after Satan puts him through the ringer? Again, this sounds very human and not so divine. Were God and Satan puffing on big cigars while they laid the money on the table as to who was right? And man is the game piece that is manipulated and messed with to see what he will do in the end? And then we are called pots who have no right to question these things? That seems a little egotistical, mean and cruel wouldn't you say? Is this a true picture of God? is there really so much shady business going on in back rooms between God and the Devil and man's lot is to shut up and suck it up? Again, that sounds very human and imperfect.

And these are just some of the reasons that many people turn away from christianity, it seems to be kind of negative, cruel and even unloving. It is a religion that says God is love... yet it has all of this baggage in the closet that seems very unloving... and God seems a bit mean and even a bit scary. He does things that not even an imperfect human would do who had a little bit of compassion and half a moral code. Yet there is God doing these crazy things and saying, "I can do it because I'm God.. who can question me, no one!!!! I'll do what I wish and all you lowly pots I made just keep your mouth shut and don't ask questions. But now look here, I can do these things to you, but don't you humans do it to one another or i'll call it sin and send you to hell." Holy double standards Batman!!!

Any thoughts?

[theophilus]

Think about what you just said; God did a whole bunch of stuff that we don't know about and cannot even comprehend.. Yet if we break or reject any of these secret rules, (that we may not even grasp with our finite minds,) we get a free trip to hell.That isn't what I said at all. Our only responsibilty is to live up to what God has revealed to us and not waste time speculating about what he had kept hidden. Deuteronomy 29:29 says,The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.


And in the meantime, we get battered, beaten and tempted by the devil that he made.If we obey God he will give us the power to defeat the devil. James 4:7 says,Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.


The devil tries to destroy God's work but God uses him to advance it. Have you ever read the book of Job? God allowed Satan to attack Job but the problems he caused ultimately helped Job by bringing him closer to God.

So the question remains; Before there was anything, there was God. He knew everything and so he knew that when he created this "Lucifer with free will" it would wreak havok on his creation and mankind.... yet he did it anyway... way in the beginning before man ever was. Why would an all knowing, all loving God do such a thing?The story of Job shows how God used Lucifer's evil to bring about a good result. It is probable that he uses all the evil in the world in the same way but we simply can't see the final results yet.

[Chrysaetos]

It's the get God out of jail free card with the free will play... But it does not answer the question as to why God created a being, (with free will,) that he knew would tempt and ruin of his whole creation.And there's a second problem. I keep hearing about this free will (a societal ideal) but how can something evil come into existence in the presence of God?
(It's an illogical belief)

[Mind's Eye]

That isn't what I said at all. Our only responsibilty is to live up to what God has revealed to us and not waste time speculating about what he had kept hidden. Deuteronomy 29:29 says,The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things that are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.




If we obey God he will give us the power to defeat the devil. James 4:7 says,Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.




The devil tries to destroy God's work but God uses him to advance it. Have you ever read the book of Job? God allowed Satan to attack Job but the problems he caused ultimately helped Job by bringing him closer to God.

The story of Job shows how God used Lucifer's evil to bring about a good result. It is probable that he uses all the evil in the world in the same way but we simply can't see the final results yet.

Then what about all of the "spirit filled, born again, tongue talking, gifted, tithing" believers that are being stricken with cancer, losing their homes and jobs in the bad economy and have even died believing God would deliver them? What about the couple I knew who were rebuking the devil in the name of Christ and reading healing scriptures scriptures every day and the wife died a slow death from cancer and the husband was left to ask why God took his wife away when they did all the Bible told them to do and stood in faith...And this man lost his faith. Was that a secret thing of God? Were all these evils used for good?

Many of these people did not turn out like Job.. they were not healed and had their goods restored to them ten time more than they originally had... These people are broke, sick, dying or dead and went the whole nine yards praying, speaking and quoting scripture and doing all that the Bible instructed.

Again, we hear about the powerful and precious promises in the scriptures... but many do not receive them as it promises they will if they have faith, remain loyal to God and believe. What is the Divine secret there... It sounds like a man who is a God father rather than a divine being... He just sits in his chair twiddling his thumbs and throws a little grace out here and there when he feels like it.. and meanwhile in his "word" he says...

Psalm 103: He forgives all your iniquities and heals all of your diseases. He redeems your life from destruction.

Psalm 91: With long life will I satisfy him and show him my salvation.

Psalm 91: No evil will befall him nor shall any plague come near his dwelling.

Mark 11: for sure I tell you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, be thou removed and be cast into the sea and it should obey you. therefore I say, whatsoever you ask in prayer, believe that you receive and ye shall have what ye ask.

So what was the hold up for the people who read these verses and many more and believed that God would do unto them according to his word?

[Baldr44]

I believe the first issue that needs to be addressed is that god is not an entity. He/She/It does not have white hair and a beard sitting on some throne. Almost all christans think that god sent his words down and the bible was created. I believe if that were so, there would be fewer than the multitude of different christian belief. Well, I don't like the way they do this, so I'll go to a church where they do what I like.

The interesting thing is that the thing most everyone cslls god is really a non-entity, a very powerful energy source or The Source. It doesn't answer prayer or protect anyone from harm. Prayer is putting a vibration into the universe, if done with intent and purpose, a response will have to happen. The Law of Cause and Effect.

“Every Cause has its Effect; every Effect has its cause; everything happens according to Law; Chance is but a name forLaw not recognized; there are many planes of causation, but nothing escapes the Law.”–The kabalion
The great Sixth Hermetic Principle–the Principle of Cause and Effect–embodies the truth
that Law pervades the Universe; that nothing happens by Chance; that Chance is merely a
term indicating cause existing but not recognized or perceived; that phenomena is
continuous, without break or exception.

[DebbyM]

This is true of purgatory but not of hell. Jesus spoke of hell a long time before there was any church in Rome.


Jesus also reminded them of the Law (Psalms) which said "have I not told you, you are gods, all children of God". My question is, do you accept that he was speaking of a literal place when referencing hell, and if so, why not accept that you are gods?

But back to the question, I think purgatory was an invention of the Catholic Church because they wanted to bring people and money into the church.

[Ciqala]

1 Corinthians 3:10-15 is often cited in defense of Purgatory, where the concluding phrase is "yet it will be like an escape through fire."


And kundalini awakening is often referred to as the same metaphor of fire, a serpent, shakti, escaping and rising like energies of fire from the base of the spine - and arbitrarily noted, the kundalini shift of awakening of energies is not negative, it is an awakening.
Ancient text as such, the bible = several colourful depictions, imageries and metaphors used to portray something on a much wider and grand scale, which creates exaggerated descriptions of divine shifts in consciousness in life and afterlife, there are countless ways to misinterpret the bible, the original text has many wisdoms and learnings to demystify life and afterlife, yet people hang on every poetic metaphor and image as if that's the way it must be. Sacred story tellers which hold onto the original source of religious documents, in all religions and belief systems, use their own exaggerated imageries and ways of conveying, not to mention Christianity, or catholic, is one religion which has been rewritten, translated, so many times it begins to lose its original source.
Or one could take fires of hell and purgatory, with a grain of salt, dually noting, fire is not used as a negative image in other belief systems, punishment and fear is a human defect which does not exist in Spirit, and purgatory is most likely referring to a transition stage, shifts in consciousness. It's one thing to believe in something, but another thing to believe in something loving.
I agree such tactics of instilling fear and ideas of fear, come from the people, whether on purpose or not (yet the inquisition and selfishness of money could state it was on purpose) - these fearful ideas do not come from God whom is loving.

[Baldr44]

ALLEGED QUOTE: "How well we know what a profitable superstition this fable of Christ has been for us!" or "What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!"

By Pope Leo X, it was he that brought about the idea of indulgences (payment for release from purgatory) the above quote probably was by a certain John Bale who wrote the Pageant of the Popes. in that text was stated "For on a time when a cardinal Bembus did move a question out of the Gospel, the Pope gave him a very
contemptuous answer saying: All ages can testify enough how profitable that fable of Christ hath been to us and our company." (Pageant of the Popes Page 179)

The inquisitions speak clearly of what the church was capable of. Whatever you do, do not disagree with them.

[Shim]

Jesus also reminded them of the Law (Psalms) which said "have I not told you, you are gods, all children of God". My question is, do you accept that he was speaking of a literal place when referencing hell, and if so, why not accept that you are gods?

But back to the question, I think purgatory was an invention of the Catholic Church because they wanted to bring people and money into the church.

Back in the OT, Psalm 82:1 says, “God presides in the great assembly; he gives judgment among the gods.” It is clear from the next three verses that the word “gods” refers to magistrates, judges, and other people who hold positions of authority and rule. Calling a human magistrate a “god” indicates three things: 1) he has authority over other human beings, 2) the power he wields as a civil authority is to be feared, and 3) he derives his power and authority from God Himself, who is pictured as judging the whole earth in verse 8.-- You are gods (http://www.gotquestions.org/you-are-gods.html)

& I can't find anywhere in the Bible where it supports purgatory. It must be a Catholic doctrine and not Christian? I don't think any person here is defending it as there appears to be no Catholics engaged in this discussion. And with the exception of the OP, there hasn't been anyone here who has shared what purgatory is. Only typical conspiracies and ill intent by former religious leaders in order to discredit their doctrines.

[DebbyM]

I guess what I was pointing out was how it is typical of the Christian church to take literally one Biblical statement, but not others. If you don't accept that 'we are all gods' then why accept a concept like hell? If you are willing to accept 'hell', then why not accept that 'we are all gods, sons of the Most High'.

And as far as suggestions that purgatory was the result of conspiracies by long ago Catholic church leaders, why not? If it is not Biblical, and the Church claims to be the protector of the Faith, the true Roman church, then where else did it come from and why? Considering the funds and the hold on peoples loyalties received from indulgences, candles, tithing, etc., where else could it have come from?

[Shim]

Are you a magistrate, do you hold high authority above men, do you derive power from and authority of God? Did Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah, the Christ? Yes, I think that his point was made clear enough.

[Baldr44]

Are you a magistrate, do you hold high authority above men, do you derive power from and authority of God? Did Jesus as the Son of God, the Messiah, the Christ? Yes, I think that his point was made clear enough.
Actually we are all part of the whole of consciousness from Source. Since you insist on calling Source god, ergo, we are all god. We all make up the collective consciousness. Since we are all on the same level, not one above the other in consciousness. There are masters, guides, teachers and prophets but still part of consciousness from Source. We all have the same abilities, some are mearly wiser and better equiped to use those abilities.

I'm certain that you think I'll go to hell for that. However since hell, purgatory and whatever else man can conjure up, are man made constructs,
I'm safe. :wink:

[DebbyM]

Actually we are all part of the whole of consciousness from Source. Since you insist on calling Source god, ergo, we are all god. We all make up the collective consciousness. Since we are all on the same level, not one above the other in consciousness. There are masters, guides, teachers and prophets but still part of consciousness from Source. We all have the same abilities, some are mearly wiser and better equiped to use those abilities.

I'm certain that you think I'll go to hell for that. However since hell, purgatory and whatever else man can conjure up, are man made constructs,
I'm safe. :wink:

Well maybe some will think you are going to hell for your remarks, but not all will. I get the sense these days that more people are throwing off the shackles of the organized church and are opening up to the possibility that we are all connected at some cosmic and subatomic level. Physics also holds a lot of promise regarding explanations as to the 'mysteries' of how the Universe is held together and the balance that 'it' maintains. UFO's are no longer considered ridiculous hallucinations of the overactive imagination, except among those who refuse to allow a curious mind to open up, and medicine is beginning to consider that just maybe, there is a continuation after death. I can't post a link yet, but Google "Jill Bolte Taylor video". She is a neuro scientist, has studied the brain for decades, and this video is her recitation of her experience during and after she was victim of a massive stroke. Inspiring and re-assuring as she has made no effort to blow the experience off as the result of mis-firing brain cells or whatever but has in fact been 'changed' by this event in her life.

So let them have their imaginings, it's all just part of "the Experience". I have a hard time with this sometimes, but I'm getting better at being like a duck, and letting it all 'roll off my back". Have a really nice day.

[Baldr44]

Absolutely, Quantum Mechanics (not Newtonian physics) has made many discoveries that provide evidence that everything is connected. Since the early 1950's there has been much in the development of quantum physics. They have found that a subatomic particle that has been split communicates with it's counterpart even at great distances. What Einstein referred to as "Spooky comunication at a distance".

The distance between physics, metaphysics and philosophy is begining to grow closer day by day.

There are many who are understanding the body-mind-soul connection. Dr.Bruce Liption "The Boilogy of Belief", Dr. Candice Perth "Molecules of Emotion" the Movie "What the Bleep Do We Know" and on and on. We are begining to understand the conectedness of and to the All That Is or the Source.

[theophilus]

Then what about all of the "spirit filled, born again, tongue talking, gifted, tithing" believers that are being stricken with cancer, losing their homes and jobs in the bad economy and have even died believing God would deliver them? What about the couple I knew who were rebuking the devil in the name of Christ and reading healing scriptures scriptures every day and the wife died a slow death from cancer and the husband was left to ask why God took his wife away when they did all the Bible told them to do and stood in faith...And this man lost his faith. Was that a secret thing of God? Were all these evils used for good?Neither one of us knows enough about these people or their circimstances to see all that God is doing in their lives.

First we can't see into their minds so we don't know if they were really trusting in God or not.

And second, the consequences of how we live aren't limited to this life. Many who reject God are happy and prosperous now and many who are righteous are suffering now. But that will change drastically when this life ends. You can see the truth of this if you read Luke 16:19-31.

[Baldr44]

You think that by reading scripture created by man will tell us the truth? Scripture is highly suspect, it has been written and rewritten so many times that it's impossible to determine the facts from the fiction. What about all the other religious truths? Is Luke correct? Luke didn't write Luke, it was written some 60 -100 years after the so called death of Christ.

It's so easy to say those who are not doing well really don't trust in god. I've sat in church and observed the hypocrisy. I've been judged by some in the congreation. So the bold statement that they may not be in line could be correct, but so many?

You are correct however in stating that "The consequences of how we live aren't limited to this life." There is after all reincarnation where we have an opportunity to fix karma. We each learn valueable lessons for each life experience.

[Shim]

You think that by reading scripture created by man will tell us the truth? Scripture is highly suspect, it has been written and rewritten so many times that it's impossible to determine the facts from the fiction. What about all the other religious truths? Is Luke correct? Luke didn't write Luke, it was written some 60 -100 years after the so called death of Christ.

It's so easy to say those who are not doing well really don't trust in god. I've sat in church and observed the hypocrisy. I've been judged by some in the congreation. So the bold statement that they may not be in line could be correct, but so many?

You are correct however in stating that "The consequences of how we live aren't limited to this life." There is after all reincarnation where we have an opportunity to fix karma. We each learn valueable lessons for each life experience.

How could Luke be written after the 60s when the last event recorded (Paul's home arrest in Rome) in Acts was in 62?

I don't think its right or funny for you to persuade people by misleading them away from the Gospels Baldr44. If your intent is just to annoy Catholics and Christians as previously said you are doing a lousy job. You haven't presented anything to the seeker that hasn't already been debated away in apologetics. Just because your past and life has been judged harshly by some of those who follow Christ, quit be a hypocrite by doing the same. And if it hasn't and you sat in their congregation and thought what a bunch of hypocrites, then shame on you. tisk tisk

Lastly, all that you present in the way of information anyone can obtain by reading the Encyclopedia Britannica, which by the way is more reliable than yours. And yes, that information was written by men. And don't use science, they are scientist-- mere men, and have made many blunders in the past. Whether telling us that this is the smallest particle until splitting it, or saying that we come from monkeys, and lets not forget that the world is flat. Now we can communicate over long distances whether by radio or other signals or that God can hear our prayers, do we need you to tell us that? Do we need science to tell us that God can hear the sinners prayers, those of us who are separated by God over great distances, that they know the will of God at some level?

I don't know what your background is, but whatever it is it seems that all you rely on is information obtained by men. And don't use history, because that too was handed down throughout time and you guessed it recorded by men.

Purgatory-- beware written by men, and there's no date of publication (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)

[Baldr44]

The earliest written text on the bible (that has been found) was after 60CE. That's recorded history. How many people have read the apologetics.? People have the right to chek anything you or I say about anything. If I get one person to check up on facts instead of believing and following the herd mentality, then I've acomplished something. Too many are led about by the rings in their noses. All I'm doing is a wake up call. Some people need to be aware of being misled. If a person is so simple as to take my word as absolute then that is indeed sad.

Much of what I share isn't available anywhere except perhaps through their spirit guides. The gospels have been rewritten so many times and translated into so many meanings. There's two new translations just out, one for catholics and one for the rest of the christians. I wonder if these two have gotten it right?

[Baldr44]

Just got home and again looked up some info:

We know that both Matthew and Luke relied on Mark's Gospel for most of their information about the life of Jesus. Whenever they agree with Mark, the text is almost identical in Greek, somthing that could not happen unless one Gospel was being copied. We also have the "missing block", a short section of text that was obviously missing from the copy of Mark that Luke was using. Since we can say that Mark's Gospel was written approximately 70 CE, Luke's Gospel must have been written some time later. Internal clues indicate that Luke's Gospel must have been written somewhat later than Matthew's, so we can say that Matthew's Gospel would have been written no ealier than 80 CE, while Luke's Gospel was written no earlier than about 90 CE.

As I said in another thread between 60 and 100 CE. Well darn I forgot my own stats.

Luke's Gospel show evidence of borrowing material from the works of Josephus, a Jewish military leader and historian. Evidence that it contains material from Antiquities of the Jews, written in 93 CE, indicates that it was written some time after this date.

We know that Luke's Gospel was already regarded as a classic of Christian scriptures by the middle of the second century, so we also know that it could not have been written later than the early years of the century.

On the basis of this evidence, we can suggest that the Gospel According to St Luke was probably written in the late 90s of the first century, or quite early in the second century.

Of course I'm trying to lead them away but not astray. There are several ways to learn, from history, from the present and from spiritual entities. Now the spiritual entities with whom I have spoken to about christianity find it to be filled with lies. Not my words but the words of a master. I know that you will take exception to those words and please feel free to do so. You must understand that I'm not trying to change anyone just offering up some good advice. Take it or leave it. I'm no hypocrite, just delivering the truth as I understand it. You, on the other hand should have nothing to fear as you are quite entrenched in your dogma and doctrine. What are you afraid of? You get really upset that the other christians may learn the truth?

I must be doing a pretty good job by the responses that you have made. My background is mostly in education, both teaching and learning. I hold three bachelors degrees and a masters. So most of what I say comes from the past four years of study in metaphysics and religious studies. My spiritual education is pricless.

As far as sitting and becoming aware of the hypocrites, it was a lesson well learned. Sometime we must sit through the teaching to learn the lesson.

You really need to lighten up, from what you describe, I couldn't possibly be any kind of a threat.

[Shim]

Matthew is personally my fav. as he appears to be the systematizer of the accounts. In short we can reverse your theory and say that Mark (pushed back to the 50s no later than 69) was a brief summary of the other two gospels since his is the shortest (well under a thousand verses). They are all in the lifespans of eyewitnesses.

Most will argue that an apostle and eye witness of Jesus' ministry would not have used a secondary source (the use of Mark). One could say that Matthew saw no need to disregard Mark for much of its material. The same can be said for Paul's letters which are indisputably from the Apostolic age.

Then there's a German theory stating that the gospel(s) could of been written from a Q document. But that's been many years ago since having read that argument and besides nobody here will more than likely research it.

"But besides prejudicially disallowing that Jesus could have predicted Jerusalem's fall, the evidence for "prophecy" after the fact is not as clear as some suggest. First the words of Christ Matthew 22:7; 24:15 are so general that one could easily understand them as indicating no knowledge of the actual destruction of Jerusalem. Second, certain episodes in Matthew give pre A.D. 70 perspectives that would at least require clarifying comment from the Gospel writer if the temple had already fallen. There is no reason, therefore, that the Gospel could not have been written before A.D. 70, Irenaeus reported that Matthew was written while Peter and Paul preached at Rome, placing at least early versions in the A.D 60s, assuming Irenaeus had a reliable tradition. The precise date of the writing of Matthew is uncertain, but some time in the 60s is not unreasonable." --Apologetics



King James 1611 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/)

By the way not many if any are questioning what you say, the links provided in the threads generally receive no hits after posting them for reference.

We have strayed from the Op by the way, and I won't be posting for awhile (taking a trip).

[DebbyM]

How could Luke be written after the 60s when the last event recorded (Paul's home arrest in Rome) in Acts was in 62?

I don't think its right or funny for you to persuade people by misleading them away from the Gospels Baldr44. ................ I don't know what your background is, but whatever it is it seems that all you rely on is information obtained by men. And don't use history, because that too was handed down throughout time and you guessed it recorded by men.

Purgatory-- beware written by men, and there's no date of publication (http://www.gotquestions.org/purgatory.html)



I thought this was a forum for discussion? Is that not what Baldr44 is doing, giving his opinion? Remember this is under "general religion'.

As far as presenting info produced by men, well, the Bible is written by men too, supposedly inspired by God, but it is up to you to prove it. And as there are so many holes in the whole Biblical story as it's been presented, I think that you may have trouble with that unless you are happy with circular reasoning. Just my opinion

As far as the atom communicating at long distances, I know what he's talking about. It was an experiment whereby an atom was split and allowed to spin off into space. It followed a natural and expected trajectory. But then they did the same experiment but placed a deflecting object in the path of one half and lo and behold, the other half made the same exact change in it's movement. This happens every time, no matter how much distance there is between the two halves. How do these two halves communicate, why did they? Incredible, fascinating and absolutely amazing. Stuff like this is part of the real story of how God/the Universe/Source really works. Not cursing those who love Him, or laying down ultimatums, "love Me the way I want you to or I'll barbecue you but at least I give you free will to make that choice"

[Baldr44]

Matthew is personally my fav. as he appears to be the systematizer of the accounts. In short we can reverse your theory and say that Mark (pushed back to the 50s no later than 69) was a brief summary of the other two gospels since his is the shortest (well under a thousand verses). They are all in the lifespans of eyewitnesses.

Most will argue that an apostle and eye witness of Jesus' ministry would not have used a secondary source (the use of Mark). One could say that Matthew saw no need to disregard Mark for much of its material. The same can be said for Paul's letters which are indisputably from the Apostolic age.

Then there's a German theory stating that the gospel(s) could of been written from a Q document. But that's been many years ago since having read that argument and besides nobody here will more than likely research it.

"But besides prejudicially disallowing that Jesus could have predicted Jerusalem's fall, the evidence for "prophecy" after the fact is not as clear as some suggest. First the words of Christ Matthew 22:7; 24:15 are so general that one could easily understand them as indicating no knowledge of the actual destruction of Jerusalem. Second, certain episodes in Matthew give pre A.D. 70 perspectives that would at least require clarifying comment from the Gospel writer if the temple had already fallen. There is no reason, therefore, that the Gospel could not have been written before A.D. 70, Irenaeus reported that Matthew was written while Peter and Paul preached at Rome, placing at least early versions in the A.D 60s, assuming Irenaeus had a reliable tradition. The precise date of the writing of Matthew is uncertain, but some time in the 60s is not unreasonable." --Apologetics



King James 1611 (http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/)

By the way not many if any are questioning what you say, the links provided in the threads generally receive no hits after posting them for reference.

We have strayed from the Op by the way, and I won't be posting for awhile (taking a trip).

Not sure if you'll get a chance to read this, but at least one maybe two have found my statements effective. One of which is now working with my wife.
While there are only two, others may decide to stop being told how to live.

[Baldr44]

I thought this was a forum for discussion? Is that not what Baldr44 is doing, giving his opinion? Remember this is under "general religion'.

As far as presenting info produced by men, well, the Bible is written by men too, supposedly inspired by God, but it is up to you to prove it. And as there are so many holes in the whole Biblical story as it's been presented, I think that you may have trouble with that unless you are happy with circular reasoning. Just my opinion

As far as the atom communicating at long distances, I know what he's talking about. It was an experiment whereby an atom was split and allowed to spin off into space. It followed a natural and expected trajectory. But then they did the same experiment but placed a deflecting object in the path of one half and lo and behold, the other half made the same exact change in it's movement. This happens every time, no matter how much distance there is between the two halves. How do these two halves communicate, why did they? Incredible, fascinating and absolutely amazing. Stuff like this is part of the real story of how God/the Universe/Source really works. Not cursing those who love Him, or laying down ultimatums, "love Me the way I want you to or I'll barbecue you but at least I give you free will to make that choice"


Thank you Debby M. That's what I've been attempting to say. I really don't want to change anyones path. However, there are times that a person may be encouraged by anothers thought process. In so doing change the way they think. I believe that each individual consciousness has the right to think for themselves. Organized anything removes that ability as they require one to follow the doctrine or dogma of that particular organization. Then the one's who accept said dogma, simply follow along, not thinking for themselves. One finds the need to run to the priest, rabbi, minister or guru to explain what it is they need to do.

I do take exception to a book (bible) that has to be changed more often than I change my socks lol. If one took the time to list the many varients of the word then it would be clear. The two new versions that I mentioned is a classic case in point. The Koran or the Torah has never been changed, there are not new issues revised or otherwise. The Koran has been printed in many languages but not changed. It is supposed to be spoken not read anyway. Yes, I will admit that each of them has different interpretations by different factions. How many different denominations of the protestant church are there? Hundreds perhaps even thousands. Sorry, but the more I study the more I realize the absurdity of it all.

As far as quantum physics is concerned, I am not overly educated in that particular science. I do know enough to say that it is indeed proving the connectedness of everything in the universe. Which is my point, we are all connected through the consciousness of Source:D .

[DebbyM]

Hey Baldr44, nice discussing with you here. I have gotten to a point where I'm also not interested in changing anyones mind. I spent 15 years in the SDA church, ultra conservative, rigid....and one good thing about it was that I can understand the fear that Christians live with which results in a certain rigidity. For me it was a time of ups and downs. Sometimes I was very comforted and many times I was uncertain and/or fearful of my 'status'. Was I good enough, etc. And I was a member in good standing, teaching childrens classes, organizing Daily Vacation Bible School for the kids, etc, and yet there was always this little niggling fear, was I 'the stoney ground'. But over time, I've come to a different way of looking at things and I'm intensely grateful for it. I see a beauty and a balance in the Universe that I never had before, and I've come to respect ALL spiritual beliefs even if they are different than mine.

As for the physics, oh my gosh, I wish I had a brain that could hold onto the ideas and understandings that have been discovered. I'm reading a book called The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene and he talks about these things. It is a book for the layman by the way. If you would like you can google that title and watch a lengthy two part video that is based on the book. The video is based on a two hour tv documentary.

Anyway, way off topic here, but it sounds like you are of the same mind as I in this regard and it's nice to talk to you.

[Baldr44]

Hey Debby, thank's for sharing your story. I too had a time in organized religion. I found it to be critical and judgmental. You can't do this because god wouldn't approve. My wife was really immersed in it and I came to a point where I told her that's enough. She finally saw the light and we left the church. It took a few years to become aware of metaphysics. She first as she communicated with her spirit guide. Eventually I was introduced to Him and since that point we have both been into metaphysics big time. She currently is a doctor of metaphysical psychology and I am working on my Ph.D. in metaphysical counseling.

She has written a book about the journey of her life called The Dragon of Drama. Due out this summer. She also has a web site that is Understanding the Nature of Personal Reality. You might want to check it out. There are many really good spiritual lessons which are some of her and some of her spirit guide. Her guide pretty much edits her work as she goes. She receives it through what some might call channeling but its more like telepathy.
http://dragonofdrama.com/
Of course its free for anyone interested. check it out

[DebbyM]

It took a few years to become aware of metaphysics. She first as she communicated with her spirit guide. Eventually I was introduced to Him and since that point we have both been into metaphysics big time. She currently is a doctor of metaphysical psychology and I am working on my Ph.D. in metaphysical counseling.



I just finished spending some time on your wife's website and found it really interesting. I guess 'metaphysics' is what I've come to be interested in, just didn't know that's what it is called. You can tell her that I found her story about her dad and the 'lack of support re: university education' familiar in a sense, although I admit that I never had a hankering to go on to higher learning. What was familiar, was some of her feelings on being dumped as it were, and having to find her own way. Anyway, the sad thing is that these awakenings seem to take so many of us, so long. Why are we always in our 50's? Hmmm, slow learners the lot of us. Oh well, it's not how long the journey takes, but the journey itself right. And of course, it is a hoot once you 'arrive' so to speak. So nice talking to you and tell Linda hello.

Now, back to 'Purgatory".

[Baldr44]

Hey Debby, I believe that its difficult to remember that its not about the destination as much as it is the journey.

We, just like Source itself are ever becoming. We are infinite beings and have an endless amount of time to learn. Just when we think that we know, something else is added to the mix. We evolve until the universe returns to Source and then Source recreates the whole thing over again.

Don't spend too much time in purgatory as we may have to bail you out.

I'll let Linda know you said hello

[DebbyM]

Hey Debby, I believe that its difficult to remember that its not about the destination as much as it is the journey.

We, just like Source itself are ever becoming. We are infinite beings and have an endless amount of time to learn. Just when we think that we know, something else is added to the mix. We evolve until the universe returns to Source and then Source recreates the whole thing over again.

Don't spend too much time in purgatory as we may have to bail you out.

I'll let Linda know you said hello

Am I the only one who finds this to be incredibly freeing? Do you and Linda feel that way? I used to be a worrier, filled with anxieties and so on, sort of a self-described victim especially when it came to my mother and yet now, I am learning to let her just do what she feels compelled to do (which is make sure I'm going to do what she thinks is the right thing to do) and in the midst of the thumping heart, I can step back and silently let her have at it, and it's not personal to me any more. Because it's all one, it's all US, and it all works out just like it should, despite our human interference. It is so cool and I just wish this part of the journey had begun years ago. Oh well, it is what it is (my new favourite saying) and I'm enjoying 'what it is' and I'm learning to say,

Love to you both and maybe we'll meet again, outside of Purgatory.

[Baldr44]

Am I the only one who finds this to be incredibly freeing? Do you and Linda feel that way? I used to be a worrier, filled with anxieties and so on, sort of a self-described victim especially when it came to my mother and yet now, I am learning to let her just do what she feels compelled to do (which is make sure I'm going to do what she thinks is the right thing to do) and in the midst of the thumping heart, I can step back and silently let her have at it, and it's not personal to me any more. Because it's all one, it's all US, and it all works out just like it should, despite our human interference. It is so cool and I just wish this part of the journey had begun years ago. Oh well, it is what it is (my new favourite saying) and I'm enjoying 'what it is' and I'm learning to say,

Love to you both and maybe we'll meet again, outside of Purgatory.

I suppose one can agree with the old addage; With age comes wisdom. I find even in the middle of turmoil one can find comfort in knowing that we will not die, that we are infinite conscious beings. We will have more opportunity to get it right. Its of course better to get it sooner than later though.
meeting outside of purgatory would be better.

[Toolite]

Purgatory

What does it mean ?

Is it a process of “purification”

Is it a time of “temporary punishment”

We do know that notion dates to the very start of Christianity a time when man was turning from the path of the worship of “gods” to the idea and worship of one “God” . One is taken back to the time of the Roman’s , a time when there was worships of many Roman god’s and to view the Roman Emperor as divine. Too we have this time to thank for something called “Taxes”. The Fiscus Iudaicus ( like our tax agencies ) but this one was set to collect taxes for the Jew’s in the Roman Empire.

This was a time of great changes and great struggles. To go against the Roman Empire was seen as an act of what is called “Heretical” in the more modern word “Heresy”, it goes to the clash of one belief to another where there are conflicts in the very “Dogma” established. Dogma being the belief held by a Religion. It is not to be disputed of put in doubts. Carved in stone so to speak. Thus it was too a time of Religious wars and many deaths.
　

Having now established the path to the idea of “Purgatory” what does it mean, well it is believed to be a place that Soul’s be dispatched to that are not yet ready for the entry to Haven. If one is to see it on the level of a place one is dispatched for the “purifications” then it be like a hospital in a sense, where one would be given care and a school where one would receive teachings and lessons. A place where the issues of that very Soul are examined and wounds and sufferings healed, and issues cleared away.

If one is to view “purgatory” as “temporary punishment” then what and whom decides this ?

It would be said that God does, but purpose would it truly serve ?

As time has moved ever forward so have the notions on what “Purgatory” might well be or mean. It comes from the Latin “Purgatorium” what almost has the sound of what we would now call a jail or asylum. Thoughts on the suffering after one’s death, (even if it be said to be temporary), the ides of some sort of torments. If there be such a place that some that are thought to do bad deeds in life or even Sin, then there too must be someone or some force that governs when one has done one’s dues and is to be set free to go forth to Heaven. In the Christian faith that would be Angels.

Is “Purgatory” a place, and where did this idea come from ? It might well date to when man first started to pay honour and respect to their dead. To prey over the dead, or do a ceremony to make sure that one did make it to the “ Afterlife” We can look to Ancient Egypt for this elaborate practice of honoring their Faros. There are many ancient traditions we can look to where the dead were cared for in a careful way to make one’s journey over a successful one.

Was the idea of “Purgatory” put maybe in place for man to keep to a solid and true path in his life, to do the work and hear the word of God ?


It is thought that when one dies there might well be a time of judgment ( this can be more Catholic in nature of teachings ) where it is decided if one moves on or if one is stuck to wonder the Earth Plane for a time. This is where the notion of the counter to a Heaven comes into play, that place of Hell. Hell is said to be a pit of fire where one’s Soul is condemned to be in forever more. One is said to have gone there when one breaks from his path with God, but too it is later said that one that has ( in Catholicism) done Sin against God and has not received absolution goes forth to Hell. Would a LOVing God whom is said to have created all in His image too create in such a place as Hell. More Hell might well be mere Metaphor (the concept of understanding one thing in terms of another).

That place put forth to keep man on his path with God ?

This idea is one that travel though many a faith and belief system.


What are one’s thoughts on Purgatory does one feel it’s temporary punishment or purification or both maybe ?

Is Purgatory a place or more just a feeling of transitions for the Soul ?

Would a God that is said to have created man in His image too create such a place as Heaven, Purgatory and Hell ?

　
　



Lynn
　



I am spiritual and can see and hear spiritually... All the lost souls that come to me seem to be in a purgatory... Not hell but, they feel like it but, still have an opportunity to cross over.. maybe it should be called limbo..

All The Glory Belongs To God Forever!