The Mother or the Father? Laozi or Jesus?

[django]

Here’s a funny thing. Laozi is all about the mother, seek the mother, flow with the mother which is the Dao, the mother of all things. Jesus is all about the Father, seek the kingdom of the Father, do the will of the Father, establish the Father’s kingdom here on earth.

[sky]

Here’s a funny thing. Laozi is all about the mother, seek the mother, flow with the mother which is the Dao, the mother of all things. Jesus is all about the Father, seek the kingdom of the Father, do the will of the Father, establish the Father’s kingdom here on earth. No not funny, just different words being used by different cultures :smile:

' So God created man in his own image, male and female he created them '

[django]

No not funny, just different words being used by different cultures :smile:

' So God created man in his own image, male and female he created them '

I think it is more than cultural differences. The Chinese recognise Yin and Yang, they recognise their inseparability, and yet they name Dao the Great mother.

For his part Jesus broke many cultural rules, and even created a word for 'God' that was unusual in Judaism, 'Abba', best translated as 'Papa'.

I think Jesus just saw further, what humanity hadn't yet seen, what was actually invisible to all up to that point, and he spoke about what he knew, and named what he knew in his own terms.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

[sky]

I think it is more than cultural differences. The Chinese recognise Yin and Yang, they recognise their inseparability, and yet they name Dao the Great mother.

For his part Jesus broke many cultural rules, and even created a word for 'God' that was unusual in Judaism, 'Abba', best translated as 'Papa'.

I think Jesus just saw further, what humanity hadn't yet seen, what was actually invisible to all up to that point, and he spoke about what he knew, and named what he knew in his own terms.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him].

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.



Of course it is cultural differences, you cannot compare Taoism to Christianity, Taoist don't have a God :smile:

They call the Tao Mother because the Female/Mother gives birth.



Tao gives birth to One,
One gives birth to Two,
The Two gives birth to Three,
The Three gives birth to all universal things.
All universal things shoulder the Yin and embrace the Yang.
The Yin and Yang mingle and mix with each other to beget the harmony.

[django]

Of course it is cultural differences, you cannot compare Taoism to Christianity, Taoist don't have a God :smile:
They call the Tao Mother because the Female/Mother gives birth.

Tao gives birth to One,
One gives birth to Two,
The Two gives birth to Three,
The Three gives birth to all universal things.
All universal things shoulder the Yin and embrace the Yang.
The Yin and Yang mingle and mix with each other to beget the harmony.
I am viewing 'God the Father' as within myself, just as Jesus specified. Know Thyself in Western philosophy. But if I was to put this in Taoist terms I would say that the ultimate known 'self' must be some sort of ultimate yang attribute within. Not a yin attribute - unless you are speaking of an external force? I'm not referring to that, only to what is within.

[sky]

I am viewing 'God the Father' as within myself, just as Jesus specified. Know Thyself in Western philosophy. But if I was to put this in Taoist terms I would say that the ultimate known 'self' must be some sort of ultimate yang attribute within. Not a yin attribute - unless you are speaking of an external force? I'm not referring to that, only to what is within. " I am viewing 'God the Father' as within myself, just as Jesus specified "

Yes I can see that :smile:
Some realize for themselves without following the words of others ( Jesus ).
Know thy self is apt.....

" The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things."


You can see the Father as within yourself, Taoist see the Universe as within themselves ( as I do ).

It all depends on how you see God....

[django]

" I am viewing 'God the Father' as within myself, just as Jesus specified "

Yes I can see that :smile:
Some realize for themselves without following the words of others ( Jesus ).
Know thy self is apt.....


" The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things."


You can see the Father as within yourself, Taoist see the Universe as within themselves ( as I do ).

It all depends on how you see God....

"The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things." This suggests there is something before 'the mother', don't you think?

[sky]

"The nameless is the beginning of heaven and earth. The named is the mother of ten thousand things." This suggests there is something before 'the mother', don't you think? "There was something undifferentiated and yet complete,
Which existed before Heaven and Earth.
Soundless and formless it depends on nothing and does not change.
It operates everywhere and is free from danger.
It may be considered the mother of the universe.
I do not know its name; I call it Tao."

[jonesboy]

This is common in many traditions.

Emptiness is the Tao in Taoism or the Father in Christianity.

The Mother is you could say the perceived motion of emptiness. It is the female aspect or energy. All things are energy and is often referred to as the Mother or female aspect.

That is why in many traditions a Divine being will have both a male and female aspect or you will see Divine beings in Yab Yum or a sexual position. It is representing the union of both the male and female aspects.

From the book, The Book of the Simple Way (https://holybooks-lichtenbergpress.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/The-Book-of-the-Simple-Way.pdf).

Yet this unity and diversity
are one, and that One is Tao, and Tao is greater than God
and greater than Nature, for in Tao both God and Nature
are as one.
"Before Heaven was, Tao was. Spiritual things draw
their spirituality therefrom, while the universe became (by
it) what we behold it now. To Tao the zenith is not high
nor the nadir low. No point in time is long ago, nor by
lapse of ages has It grown old."
Laotze makes a distinction between the Supreme Source
of all things-Tao the ineffable, and Nature the mother of
all things. Tao, the essence of the Universal Spirit, selfexistent, uncreate and eternal, the source of all creations
and of all worlds, as of the gods who made and govern
them, "is by nature One," says Laotze.
"One and universal is Tao, but the first has produced
a second and the second a third, and these three are all
things. In vain may your senses enquire concerning all
these ; your reason alone can frame anything respecting
them, and this will tell you that they are only One." 1

GOING BACK TO THE CAUSE

THAT from which the universe sprang may be
looked upon as its Mother.
By knowing the Mother you have access to
the child.
And if, knowing the child, you prefer the
Mother, though your body perish, yet you
will come to no harm.
Keep your mouth shut, and close up the
doors of sight and sound, and as long as you
live you will have no vexation.
But open your mouth, or become inquisitive,
and you will be in trouble all your life long.
To perceive things in the germ is intelligence.
To remain gentle is to be invincible.
Follow the light that guides you homeward,
and do not get lost in the darkness.
This I call using the eternal.

[ImthatIm]

The Great Mystery neither Male nor Female.

[IRD ULO]

Mother or Father ?

Many Who Think Thus wise Think of the Universe or Existence Through the Human Eye. Laozi Did not See the World as Such; Defining the Dao as the Mother For the Sake of the Myriads that Can Conceive and Give Birth, Before Which; Nothing Nothing Existed; That meaning, It Simply Hasn't Received it's Rating in The Sense of Blooming beyond the Eastern Hemisphere in it's Sociability. Being not So Widely Spread as Christianity, Taoism is still Kept in it's Purer Form then Christianity; By Ever Wimp and Mis-translation that the World of $$$Cash money and the Folly of Men Provide.

So it is Regarded a Beauty, For Which Laozi Complimented the Dao as the Mother of All Things. Regardless of How Christianity Views the Father, Christiandom has Long Butchered the Father Figure into the Extends For Which a Mother Figure Must Come in Question to a Youngling. This is the Parenting that Christiandom has brought the World into For Which i'm Glad Taoism has not been Dragged Through the Gutter as Much as Christiandom. But Even in the Trinity, their is a Mother Figure. If not even Mary, the Mother of Yeshua and Chavah (Eve) is Praised as the Mother of the Living and the Blessed; Giving them Prominence that they are Well Deserved. Perchance this is the Wrong Conclusion of Religion, When a Female is Less Valued then a Male; Tho Myself being a Male, but understanding, that a Life without a Female Mother in Perspective is no Biblical Living in itself. Hence to them who Regard; dis and Reregard. Lest you become a Chau v.n.st.c p**c*: No Pun intended.
"¡" Admonishions to them Who Understand.

[inavalan]

Here’s a funny thing. Laozi is all about the mother, seek the mother, flow with the mother which is the Dao, the mother of all things. Jesus is all about the Father, seek the kingdom of the Father, do the will of the Father, establish the Father’s kingdom here on earth.
As far as I know, your inner-self is androgynous.

[django]

I’ve come to the conclusion that it is mother and father, without the ‘and’ even being there, so motherfather.

Which makes me a dualist :hug:

[ant]

I’ve come to the conclusion that it is mother and father, without the ‘and’ even being there, so motherfather.

Which makes me a dualist :hug:

And everyones perception is...and

[django]

And everyones perception is...and

Sorry I don’t understand what you mean here, likely I’m just dense :smile:

[jonesboy]

The Great Mystery neither Male nor Female.

You are correct and it is beyond description.

Just common terms to help people understand.

The Mother is often in reference to energy, the creation aspect.. just like the Mother gives birth and life.

When you realize the two are one you realize the light or emptiness.

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

[BigJohn]

You are correct and it is beyond description.

Just common terms to help people understand.

The Mother is often in reference to energy, the creation aspect.. just like the Mother gives birth and life.

When you realize the two are one you realize the light or emptiness.

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Both cited scriptures are from the Gospel of Thomas which was never canonized.

[jonesboy]

Both cited scriptures are from the Gospel of Thomas which was never canonized.

I don't care that the church approved it or not. Maybe they didn't because it does go against what they teach.

[sky]

I don't care that the church approved it. Maybe because it does go against pretty much what they teach.


Thank God it wasn't Canonized, they'd have twisted it inside out and back to front, it's perfect the way it is :smile:

[jonesboy]

Thank God it wasn't Canonized, they'd have twisted it inside out and back to front, it's perfect the way it is :smile:

Well said :)

[BigJohn]

I don't care that the church approved it or not. Maybe they didn't because it does go against what they teach.

Okay.

What about the following 'scripture'?

“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.”

I have no issues with that 'scripture' but at the same time I know it is not canonized and it is offensive to some Christians even though it was written by a 'black Pope'.

That is why I wrote the source of your cited scriptures and I mentioned the scriptures were not canonized.

[jonesboy]

Okay.

What about the following 'scripture'?

“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.”

I have no issues with that 'scripture' but at the same time I know it is not canonized and it is offensive to some Christians even though it was written by a 'black Pope'.

That is why I wrote the source of your cited scriptures and I mentioned the scriptures were not canonized.

This is an interfaith section of the forum.

It is my faith to believe in it, to have realized many of the truths within it. You or anyone finding it offensive, is called intolerance of others beliefs. Look within instead of trying to silence or change others.

I disagree with your quote which is from the Satanic Bible.

Pretty outrageous comparison.

If you have trouble understand anything in the GOT please let me know.. it's meaning is far from anything in the satanic bible.

[sky]

Okay.

What about the following 'scripture'?

“Love is one of the most intense feelings felt by man; another is hate. Forcing yourself to feel indiscriminate love is very unnatural. If you try to love everyone you only lessen your feelings for those who deserve your love. Repressed hatred can lead to many physical and emotional aliments. By learning to release your hatred towards those who deserve it, you cleanse yourself of these malignant emotions and need not take your pent-up hatred out on your loved ones.”

I have no issues with that 'scripture' but at the same time I know it is not canonized and it is offensive to some Christians even though it was written by a 'black Pope'.

That is why I wrote the source of your cited scriptures and I mentioned the scriptures were not canonized.



OMG, now that's an eyeopener, the Satanic Bible being called a Scripture. You will know them by their fruits comes to mind....

[BigJohn]

This is an interfaith section of the forum.

It is my faith to believe in it, to have realized many of the truths within it. You or anyone finding it offensive, is called intolerance of others beliefs. Look within instead of trying to silence or change others.

I disagree with your quote which is from the Satanic Bible.

Pretty outrageous comparison.

If you have trouble understand anything in the GOT please let me know.. it's meaning is far from anything in the satanic bible.

Amazing how things blow up. If you read what I wrote, I never said anything was offensive so I am not sure where you are coming from by claiming what I wrote "is called intolerance of others beliefs".

If you noticed, you cited some scriptures without stating where they came from. I cited the source ... no big deal.

I mentioned that 'scripture' from the Satanic Bible to emphasis the point that if we quote something, it might be 'nice' to cite the source. Citing the source can be looked at it as a courtesy. This way we are 'all on the same page'.

There is no reason for anybody to get upset.

If you feel I was insensitive and intolerant of your beliefs, I am sorry.

[jonesboy]

Amazing how things blow up. If you read what I wrote, I never said anything was offensive so I am not sure where you are coming from by claiming what I wrote "is called intolerance of others beliefs".

If you noticed, you cited some scriptures without stating where they came from. I cited the source ... no big deal.

I mentioned that 'scripture' from the Satanic Bible to emphasis the point that if we quote something, it might be 'nice' to cite the source. Citing the source can be looked at it as a courtesy. This way we are 'all on the same page'.

There is no reason for anybody to get upset.

If you feel I was insensitive and intolerant of your beliefs, I am sorry.

Your right, I should have provided the source. My mistake.. easier next time to just ask me to update with the source..

[BigJohn]

Your right, I should have provided the source. My mistake.. easier next time to just ask me to update with the source..

I hope some day we meet up.

Coffee, or whatever is on me.

[ImthatIm]

You are correct and it is beyond description.

Just common terms to help people understand.

The Mother is often in reference to energy, the creation aspect.. just like the Mother gives birth and life.

When you realize the two are one you realize the light or emptiness.

22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

114. Simon Peter said to them, "Make Mary leave us, for females don't deserve life." Jesus said, "Look, I will guide her to make her male, so that she too may become a living spirit resembling you males. For every female who makes herself male will enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Thanks for the Book of the simple Way.

******************PANTHEOS*****************
There z's a Power Divine witht'n the Heart of Things,
Which clrcumvents the universe of worlds, and brings
The Soul of all created things lo .final good.,·
Wht'ch, ages gone, dt'd take existence where it stood,
And slowly fashz'on'd z'I to something pure and faz'r,-
Though good in their beginnings all creations were.,·
Yet growing better still, and last of all supreme,
Th' intense superlative of Nature's pure extreme.
This Power dz'vine z's bodied forth in him whose soul,
Reflecting Good z'tself, doth comprehend the whole
Of less petfected tht'ngs, wherdn the Light divine,
Though hid by darker veil, hath never ceased to shine.,·
By which all wilt at length but sure resolved be
To something good as great, secure as it is free:
Will be resolv'd again, ere Time its course hath run
To where in Being's dawn z'ts circle had begun.,·
And Earth and errant Man, and Heaven and That divine,
Like .fibres of one heart will blend and intertwine.

This piece of writing hooked me like a hungry bass.:smile:

[jonesboy]

Thanks for the Book of the simple Way.


This piece of writing hooked me like a hungry bass.:smile:

Some good stuff in the beginning of that book.

[ImthatIm]

Some good stuff in the beginning of that book.

Got to pg. 50

"First of all empty yourself of
everything, give yourself over to the inevitable, and go back
Home in peace." Secondly, he says, " Having done this, .you
will be preserved, you will be enlightened, will be great of soul,
a king, a celestial being, and finally will become at one with
Tao."

Thought this was a gem.:smile:

[jonesboy]

Got to pg. 50 Thought this was a gem.:smile: Yes, important part and shows the difference between Taoism and Hinduism.

[RabbiO]

For his part Jesus broke many cultural rules, and even created a word for 'God' that was unusual in Judaism, 'Abba', best translated as 'Papa'.


Actually you are incorrect.

Although Hebrew was still spoken by some at the time of Jesus, the main language spoken by the people was Aramaic. The Hebrew word for father is אב (Av). The Aramaic word for father is אבא (Abba). It is the only Aramaic word for father. It is not a term of special endearment like Dad, Daddy or Papa. It's simply father.

Only later would it be adopted into Hebrew as a term of endearment.

[ImthatIm]

*** * * * * " I glory on the breast of my Mother." * * * * * ***

He compares himself to a little child, abandoned
and rejected by mankind, but dear to his mother-Nature. It
is a full indictment of the world, and loses nothing of its force
by reason of its simplicity; for how can we reject the child of
Nature without spurning Nature herself, on whose pure breast
he lies in his glory? All this worldly wisdom of ours, this
distinction of good and evil, this ambition, egoism, dogmatism,
this patriotism, this spacing out of our lives into codes of ethic
and polity, this ticketing and labelling of things and persons
which characterises the world to-day, all this is laughed at and
scorned by Laotze as something paltry, ridiculous, and unnatural.
Yet while rejecting Nature in the highest sense, we
swarm over her like parasites in all that appertains to the
merely earthly. We are for ever probing her for new and ever
new resourcesr prodding her for more and more sustenance,
nosing and pushing and squealing like a litter of young pigs,
and sucking at her like vampires. We know a great deal
about her operations and resources, all that concerns the mere
externals of her existence, but of Nature herself-her integrity,
her virtue, her unselfishness, her close union with God-we are
altogether ignorant, or what (but for our ignorance) would be
worse, indifferent.

Simply outstanding!!! Excellent !!!!:hug3:

[django]

Actually you are incorrect.

Although Hebrew was still spoken by some at the time of Jesus, the main language spoken by the people was Aramaic. The Hebrew word for father is אב (Av). The Aramaic word for father is אבא (Abba). It is the only Aramaic word for father. It is not a term of special endearment like Dad, Daddy or Papa. It's simply father.

Only later would it be adopted into Hebrew as a term of endearment.

Thankyou RabbiO, I appreciate your input.

[Shivani Devi]

The Great Mystery neither Male nor Female.
....or both.

In Tantra, the "Father" and the "Mother" are inseparable, although one is reached and beseeched only through the other.

While it may sound confusing, consider this..

Jesus AS Jesus is not the "Father" even though he says: "I and the Father are one" but according to Christianity, the way TO the Father is through Jesus Christ, so Jesus also acts like the "middleman" between yourself and the Lord (Father).

Similarly, in Tantra, the way to Shiva is through Shakti and the way to Shakti is through Shiva.

This may also sound confusing, so let's break it down.

God or the Father is totally beyond His manifested energies yet is the creator OF them in the form of Prakriti or Shakti...the Goddess...so, by understanding God's manifested energies, God can thus be known through them and then by understanding God, His manifested energies can also be understood as being the cosmic dance between potent and intent.

It is like you have a problem, so you go ask your father and he says "ask your mother" so you go ask your mother and she says "ask your father" then you realise that what you are seeking is within yourself anyway...it is totally beyond the duality of "Divine Masculine" vs "Divine Feminine" because it is a combination of both, which leads to an either/neither or as an and/or scenario, which results in Samadhi... enlightenment.

The Tantric Hindus even have a Deity created for this very purpose when one cannot decide who to give their attention to...the Father or the Mother...it is called Ardharnarishvara or the "half and half God(dess)":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardhanarishvara

Meant for contemplating where one "ends" and the other "begins" until there is no "one" and no "other"... just both or neither.

[Shivani Devi]

I’ve come to the conclusion that it is mother and father, without the ‘and’ even being there, so motherfather.

Which makes me a dualist :hug:
See my explanation above....We can move from Duality to Non Duality and back again as many times as we like with just a simple change in perception, only to realize that "Duality" vs "Non Duality" is also Duality. :biggrin:

[Shivani Devi]

Ok, don't laugh - Who is Laozi? Lao tzu?
Satanic Bible?LOL..

I thought I would just add my bit as a Hindu, because we have a Rabbi, two Buddhists, a Christian, an OP who is trying to correlate Daoism with Christianity...just thought I would give a Hindu perspective..now all we need is a follower of the Islamic faith to come along and all bases will be covered before they all "are belong to us". :D

I don't know anything about the Satanic Bible or the Gospel of St. Thomas either, except for ONE thing..

"If you bring forth that which is within you, what is within you shall save you. If you do not bring forth that which is within you, what is within you shall destroy you".

I didn't need to read the Gospel of St. Thomas after that, because I got the main point of it without having the need to.

From a Daoist perspective (yeah, I can go there too), there has been talk of Yin and Yang in this thread...ever stop to wonder what that little dot of Yang is doing in the Yin and what that little dot of Yin is doing in the Yang? because I sure have.

[django]

LOL..

I thought I would just add my bit as a Hindu, because we have a Rabbi, two Buddhists, a Christian, an OP who is trying to correlate Daoism with Christianity...just thought I would give a Hindu perspective..now all we need is a follower of the Islamic faith to come along and all bases will be covered before they all "are belong to us". :D

I don't know anything about the Satanic Bible or the Gospel of St. Thomas either, except for ONE thing..

"If you bring forth that which is within you, what is within you shall save you. If you do not bring forth that which is within you, what is within you shall destroy you".

I didn't need to read the Gospel of St. Thomas after that, because I got the main point of it without having the need to.

From a Daoist perspective (yeah, I can go there too), there has been talk of Yin and Yang in this thread...ever stop to wonder what that little dot of Yang is doing in the Yin and what that little dot of Yin is doing in the Yang? because I sure have.

Maybe we can never get beyond duality, always yin and yang with a little bit of the other in it, even at the very subtle levels.

[Shivani Devi]

Maybe we can never get beyond duality, always yin and yang with a little bit of the other in it, even at the very subtle levels.
Not with any intellectualizing or conscious thought patterns anyway, as they are part of the duality they are trying to escape from..until we become very skilled mental contortionists, getting nowhere..

This goes wholly into the realms of pure subjective experience of somewhere we don't need any concept of duality or non duality to even travel to..the Christian people call it a "leap of faith".

[ImthatIm]

....or both.

In Tantra, the "Father" and the "Mother" are inseparable, although one is reached and beseeched only through the other.

While it may sound confusing, consider this..

Jesus AS Jesus is not the "Father" even though he says: "I and the Father are one" but according to Christianity, the way TO the Father is through Jesus Christ, so Jesus also acts like the "middleman" between yourself and the Lord (Father).

Similarly, in Tantra, the way to Shiva is through Shakti and the way to Shakti is through Shiva.

This may also sound confusing, so let's break it down.

God or the Father is totally beyond His manifested energies yet is the creator OF them in the form of Prakriti or Shakti...the Goddess...so, by understanding God's manifested energies, God can thus be known through them and then by understanding God, His manifested energies can also be understood as being the cosmic dance between potent and intent.

It is like you have a problem, so you go ask your father and he says "ask your mother" so you go ask your mother and she says "ask your father" then you realise that what you are seeking is within yourself anyway...it is totally beyond the duality of "Divine Masculine" vs "Divine Feminine" because it is a combination of both, which leads to an either/neither or as an and/or scenario, which results in Samadhi... enlightenment.

The Tantric Hindus even have a Deity created for this very purpose when one cannot decide who to give their attention to...the Father or the Mother...it is called Ardharnarishvara or the "half and half God(dess)":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardhanarishvara

Meant for contemplating where one "ends" and the other "begins" until there is no "one" and no "other"... just both or neither.

Very nice explanation.
A cosmic dance between potent and intent, as you have nicely put it.
We can see these dances play out in nature everywhere we look.

Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[jonesboy]

....or both.

In Tantra, the "Father" and the "Mother" are inseparable, although one is reached and beseeched only through the other.

While it may sound confusing, consider this..

Jesus AS Jesus is not the "Father" even though he says: "I and the Father are one" but according to Christianity, the way TO the Father is through Jesus Christ, so Jesus also acts like the "middleman" between yourself and the Lord (Father).

Similarly, in Tantra, the way to Shiva is through Shakti and the way to Shakti is through Shiva.

This may also sound confusing, so let's break it down.

God or the Father is totally beyond His manifested energies yet is the creator OF them in the form of Prakriti or Shakti...the Goddess...so, by understanding God's manifested energies, God can thus be known through them and then by understanding God, His manifested energies can also be understood as being the cosmic dance between potent and intent.

It is like you have a problem, so you go ask your father and he says "ask your mother" so you go ask your mother and she says "ask your father" then you realise that what you are seeking is within yourself anyway...it is totally beyond the duality of "Divine Masculine" vs "Divine Feminine" because it is a combination of both, which leads to an either/neither or as an and/or scenario, which results in Samadhi... enlightenment.

The Tantric Hindus even have a Deity created for this very purpose when one cannot decide who to give their attention to...the Father or the Mother...it is called Ardharnarishvara or the "half and half God(dess)":
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardhanarishvara

Meant for contemplating where one "ends" and the other "begins" until there is no "one" and no "other"... just both or neither.

From a Mystical Christianity point of view..

The Father is Emptiness the Tao.

The Father and Jesus being One is a perfect description of Non Duality, of realizing emptiness, of being a Realized Immortal.

Hinduism doesn't have the same concept of emptiness as Taoism or Buddhism or Mystical Christianity. There is Shiva and we are all within Shiva.

[Shivani Devi]

From a Mystical Christianity point of view..

The Father is Emptiness the Tao.

The Father and Jesus being One is a perfect description of Non Duality, of realizing emptiness, of being a Realized Immortal.

Hinduism doesn't have the same concept of emptiness as Taoism or Buddhism or Mystical Christianity. There is Shiva and we are all within Shiva.
Mystical Christianity from a Hindu perspective....here we go..ready Tom?

Although the personage of Jesus was, in no doubt, a historical figure of great importance and significance, the title of being "the Christ" refers to the "Annointed One" blessed by the Lord's Grace which is through the whole "Baptism of Fire" and by now, you can probably tell where I am going to go with this..

The "Father" is that which descends, while the "Mother" is that which arises, both meeting within the heart..within the sacred fire pit of Bhairava.

The energy of the Father, of Shiva comes in through the Crown Chakra and is instilled as Krystos..as ambrosia within the sacred Pineal gland..and like Jacob, we need to climb the ladder of 33 steps (the vertebrae in the human spinal column and the years that Lord Jesus walked the earth) to access the key to immortality.

Who does this "climbing"? It is not the mind, ego nor personal will, but the Goddess within....pretty much the only Goddess there is.. Kundalini Shakti. Every other external manifestation of the Goddess is merely a symbolic representation OF Her.

So when the Shakti ascends to meet the Grace of Shiva, they both descend from the Crown, down into the Heart Chakra where the third force is awakened which transcends both...known as Sadashiva..Brahman..that aspect of God which is absolute and not relative.

I could go into this in a lot more depth, but then I will lose everyone more than I have already done. lol

[jonesboy]

Mystical Christianity from a Hindu perspective....here we go..ready Tom?

Although the personage of Jesus was, in no doubt, a historical figure of great importance and significance, the title of being "the Christ" refers to the "Annointed One" blessed by the Lord's Grace which is through the whole "Baptism of Fire" and by now, you can probably tell where I am going to go with this..

The "Father" is that which descends, while the "Mother" is that which arises, both meeting within the heart..within the sacred fire pit of Bhairava.

The energy of the Father, of Shiva comes in through the Crown Chakra and is instilled as Krystos..as ambrosia within the sacred Pineal gland..and like Jacob, we need to climb the ladder of 33 steps (the vertebrae in the human spinal column and the years that Lord Jesus walked the earth) to access the key to immortality.

Who does this "climbing"? It is not the mind, ego nor personal will, but the Goddess within....pretty much the only Goddess there is.. Kundalini Shakti. Every other external manifestation of the Goddess is merely a symbolic representation OF Her.

So when the Shakti ascends to meet the Grace of Shiva, they both descend from the Crown, down into the Heart Chakra where the third force is awakened which transcends both...known as Sadashiva..Brahman..that aspect of God which is absolute and not relative.

I could go into this in a lot more depth, but then I will lose everyone more than I have already done. lol


Again, you are describing the Hindu perspective.

Here are some teachings from Mystical Christianity.

Defining The Holy Grail...

Regarding the concept of the "Holy Grail", in gnostic Christian traditions it represent the "Shekinah of the Messiah" (or Holy Spirit). The completion (or consort) of a Man (or Woman) as the primordial Adam. In the concept of Christian enlightenment, primordial Adam is beyond male and female separation (or contains both sexes). It is very similar to other traditions where gods are alway seen as having a consort or sometimes having both male and female sexual organs. The Gospel of Thomas describes it as follows...


22. Jesus saw some babies nursing. He said to his disciples, "These nursing babies are like those who enter the (Father's) kingdom." They said to him, "Then shall we enter the (Father's) kingdom as babies?" Jesus said to them, "When you make the two into one, and when you make the inner like the outer and the outer like the inner, and the upper like the lower, and when you make male and female into a single one, so that the male will not be male nor the female be female, when you make eyes in place of an eye, a hand in place of a hand, a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then you will enter [the kingdom]."

Communion - A Mystical Perspective...

26 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to his disciples, saying, “Take and eat; this is my body.” 27 Then he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you. 28 This is my blood of the[a] covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. 29 I tell you, I will not drink from this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.” 30 When they had sung a hymn, they went out to the Mount of Olives.


The words are describing in symbolic terms the meaning of true communion. Jesus is describing an advanced form of light transmission (or shared oneness/presence), similar to guru/divinity yoga. Historically, there have been two main different types of transmission. First, earth or Mother energy often called Shakipat (leading to Kundalini). And second, sharing of presence (or knowledge) which momentarily create a state of "clarity of mind".


In communion, the "body" represent body/mother energy or "Kundalini". The "blood" represents spirit energy or "state of knowledge". In Christian terms, the state of knowledge is often also called "the peace that passes all human understanding". Bringing together both components greatly accelerates overall human development because you have the "kundalini" force pushing ongoing "clarity" rapidly forward, while the guru/master provides an ongoing "sharing" of peace (mental clarity) to help protect from the normal issues that can come from kundalini. This shared clarity or peace is also why many Christian's will describe a "top down" rather than a "bottom up" feeling to energy/kundalini.


In more esoteric gnostic christian texts, it is often call things like the "bridal or marriage chamber". As in the Gospel of Thomas...

75. Jesus said, "There are many standing at the door, but those who are alone will enter the bridal suite."

Also, from the Secret Gospel of Mary...

12. Disciples of Mary said to her, “We are going on a pilgrimage to the holy land so we might see where you and the Lord lived.” Mary said to them, “The holy land is wherever a child of Light goes, and it is where the child of Light abides. The holy land is where the Anointed and the soul are joined, it is the bridal chamber.”

23. Mary spoke, and said, “There is baptism, chrism and wedding feast, and there is the ransom and bridal chamber. Baptism is water, chrism is fire and the ransom is earth. The wedding feast is the air, for in the Spirit we shall meet the Anointed on the Day of Joy, and then the element of the bridal chamber shall be fully revealed. Everything the Lord accomplished he accomplished in a mystery, and the Anointed Bride is the mystery.”

48. Mary taught her disciples, saying, “The Aeons of Light are the handmaids of the Bride at the wedding feast, and the best man is the Son of Adam at the wedding; in the bridal chamber the soul acquires intimate acquaintance with the Anointed and becomes the Anointed. Until that time, sing and dance and rejoice, for it is to those who abide in joy that the Shekinah comes, and it is through her that you will enter the bridal chamber.”

[django]

Mystical Christianity from a Hindu perspective....here we go..ready Tom?

Although the personage of Jesus was, in no doubt, a historical figure of great importance and significance, the title of being "the Christ" refers to the "Annointed One" blessed by the Lord's Grace which is through the whole "Baptism of Fire" and by now, you can probably tell where I am going to go with this..

The "Father" is that which descends, while the "Mother" is that which arises, both meeting within the heart..within the sacred fire pit of Bhairava.

The energy of the Father, of Shiva comes in through the Crown Chakra and is instilled as Krystos..as ambrosia within the sacred Pineal gland..and like Jacob, we need to climb the ladder of 33 steps (the vertebrae in the human spinal column and the years that Lord Jesus walked the earth) to access the key to immortality.

Who does this "climbing"? It is not the mind, ego nor personal will, but the Goddess within....pretty much the only Goddess there is.. Kundalini Shakti. Every other external manifestation of the Goddess is merely a symbolic representation OF Her.

So when the Shakti ascends to meet the Grace of Shiva, they both descend from the Crown, down into the Heart Chakra where the third force is awakened which transcends both...known as Sadashiva..Brahman..that aspect of God which is absolute and not relative.

I could go into this in a lot more depth, but then I will lose everyone more than I have already done. lol

I agree that the mother ascends and the father descends but IME they meet in the head and stay there, and produce this ‘third force’. Mother Earth and Father sky in the old traditions maybe, and they produce something at the line where they meet.

I’ll have to look into ‘Brahman’, see if that resonates with me.

[BigJohn]

Roger that.
Requested sentence:Ate Wankantanka, Mitawa ki,

Wazi ya tanhan, ka te na Wa ska ki u ya ye ki,

Hena un taku ya kage ki, ya glu ska kta, he ca nu,

He iye cel, Wakantanka, Anpetu ki le, Micante Ki Mi ci yu ska ye,

He cel tohanl, nitokab woyasu ki el, wahinajin ki, ima ya cu kta.:hug3:


LOKOTA PRAYER


You provided the transliterated version.


The English version of what you provided is:

"My Father, Great Spirit,
Who send'est the wind and the White Snow from the north,
To make thy creation clean and pure,
Father, make me clean and pure within my heart,
That I may be accepted in thy sight and judgement."



The second part, which you did not provide is:

"Father, Great Spirit
To the east from whence cometh the rising of the sun,
and all thy living creation,
Thou hast added another day to my life,
for which I give thee Thanks with all my heart."

[ImthatIm]

LOKOTA PRAYER
You provided the transliterated version.
The English version of what you provided is:

"My Father, Great Spirit,
Who send'est the wind and the White Snow from the north,
To make thy creation clean and pure,
Father, make me clean and pure within my heart,
That I may be accepted in thy sight and judgement."

The second part, which you did not provide is:

"Father, Great Spirit
To the east from whence cometh the rising of the sun,
and all thy living creation,
Thou hast added another day to my life,
for which I give thee Thanks with all my heart."
You correct on all accounts, except the version you provided is the transliterated version from the Lakota language.

Plus I was noticing how this first part of this prayer could easily be
interchanged with a Christian prayer.

It is ironic that Native Ways can except and adopt many christian ways easily.
But not many Christians can except Native ways and may even call them
evil and down grade The People as savages.

I would say that many Native ways have Mothers and Fathers in balance.
Many Christian ways have stripped out many feminine references in scripture and practices.
Many of the Christian ways I know about see raping the Mother of resources
as a blessing from the Father.

[jonesboy]

You correct on all accounts, except the version you provided is the transliterated version from the Lakota language.

Plus I was noticing how this first part of this prayer could easily be
interchanged with a Christian prayer.

It is ironic that Native Ways can except and adopt many christian ways easily.
But not many Christians can except Native ways and may even call them
evil and down grade The People as savages.

I would say that many Native ways have Mothers and Fathers in balance.
Many Christian ways have stripped out many feminine references in scripture and practices.
Many of the Christian ways I know about see raping the Mother of resources
as a blessing from the Father.

Depends on the Christian Tradition. The Greek Orthodox has some good stuff.

From St. Symeon The New Theologian

“By what boundless mercy, my Savior, have you allowed me to become a member of
your body? Me, the unclean, the defiled, the prodigal. How is it that you have clothed
me in the brilliant garment, radiant with the splendor of immortality, that turns all my
members into light? Your body, immaculate and divine, is all radiant with the fire of your
divinity, with which it is ineffably joined and combined. This is the gift you have given
me, my God: that this mortal and shabby frame has become one with your immaculate
body and that my blood has mingled with your blood.” (8)

“I thank you that you have become one spirit with me, without confusion, without
mutation, without transformation, you the God of all; and that you have become
everything for me, inexpressible and perfectly gratuitous nourishment, which ever flows
to the lips of my soul and gushes out into the fountain of my heart, dazzling garment
which burns the demons, purification which bathes me with these imperishable and holy
tears, that your presence brings to those whom you visit. I give you thanks that for me
you have become unsetting light and non-declining sun…” (9)

8. Johannes Koder: Hymnes; Vol 156 (1-15), 1969; Vol 174 (16-40), 1971; Vol 196

(41-58), 1973

9. Saint Symeon the New Theologian And Orthodox Tradition, by Bishop Hilarion

Alfeyev, Oxford University Press 2000

[ImthatIm]

Depends on the Christian Tradition. The Greek Orthodox has some good stuff.

From St. Symeon The New Theologian



Yes, I agree it depends.
I was careful to say Many, and many christian ways I know.

Here in America we have many Christian traditions that evolved out
of the Catholic traditions and influences.
I would say that the Catholic church weaponized Christianity to
conquer and control peoples and tribes across Europe that Lived from
and with the land.They then continued that practice here.
In Europe you can read of the killing of female witches
as a way to rid groups of the feminine use of the powers and goodness of the earth/Mother.
Then subjugate through a Father like punishing God.
And making people dependent on the church as an intercessor instead of
people being able to speak/commune with Masculine Gods and Feminine Goddesses.

[django]

My mother has her little collection of Mary statues, and there are Marian priests, in the end people will find what they need it seems, anyway the Catholic Church left the door wide open when in his Ineffabilis Deus in 1854, Pope Pius IX wrote:

“Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.“

[ImthatIm]

My mother has her little collection of Mary statues, and there are Marian priests, in the end people will find what they need it seems, anyway the Catholic Church left the door wide open when in his Ineffabilis Deus in 1854, Pope Pius IX wrote:

“Let all the children of the Catholic Church, who are so very dear to us, hear these words of ours. With a still more ardent zeal for piety, religion and love, let them continue to venerate, invoke and pray to the most Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God, conceived without original sin. Let them fly with utter confidence to this most sweet Mother of mercy and grace in all dangers, difficulties, needs, doubts and fears. Under her guidance, under her patronage, under her kindness and protection, nothing is to be feared; nothing is hopeless. Because, while bearing toward us a truly motherly affection and having in her care the work of our salvation, she is solicitous about the whole human race. And since she has been appointed by God to be the Queen of heaven and earth, and is exalted above all the choirs of angels and saints, and even stands at the right hand of her only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ our Lord, she presents our petitions in a most efficacious manner. What she asks, she obtains. Her pleas can never be unheard.“

Do you know if Mary represents the Earth Mother, the Mother of all living life forms?

[django]

Do you know if Mary represents the Earth Mother, the Mother of all living life forms?

She is considered to be queen of heaven and all of earth because she was the mother of God, but I don’t think she is considered to be the earth mother in the sense of mother of all living things.

[Still_Waters]

Ok, don't laugh - Who is Laozi?m Lao tzu?
A Satanic Bible?
"Seems like this thread is an exclusive club of esoteric readers, and the heck with anyone else.
I'm sure many have come and just left, also, learning nothing. *scratches head*"

:D

[Aknaton]

LOKOTA PRAYER
You provided the transliterated version.
The English version of what you provided is:

"My Father, Great Spirit,
Who send'est the wind and the White Snow from the north,
To make thy creation clean and pure,
Father, make me clean and pure within my heart,
That I may be accepted in thy sight and judgement."

The second part, which you did not provide is:

"Father, Great Spirit
To the east from whence cometh the rising of the sun,
and all thy living creation,
Thou hast added another day to my life,
for which I give thee Thanks with all my heart."
Not that it's within topic, but my wife once had a Native American Saint (he was not 'Christian' when he was alive, but somehow got acquainted with Christ after leaving the body) and he would dance, sing and praise God through her. My wife didn't initially know, she thought she was speaking Heavenly tongues, but was actually speaking native American. This guy was so cool, whenever demons come, he'd enter the body, speak native American, dance, pray, praise and then choke the demon!

Jesus says, "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God." Doesn't matter where your from, if your heart is pure, you'll definitely see God.

[Altair]

Here’s a funny thing. Laozi is all about the mother, seek the mother, flow with the mother which is the Dao, the mother of all things. Jesus is all about the Father, seek the kingdom of the Father, do the will of the Father, establish the Father’s kingdom here on earth.

The belief that the creative aspect (or even 'creator') is male (and a ''Father''), and will establish a kingdom, is problematic IMO.

[Scholarly Tarot]

I hope some day we meet up.
Coffee, or whatever is on me. I would be willing to join with you twos also! After coffee, then breakfast on me!:hug3:

[Scholarly Tarot]

Jonesboy
From a Mystical Christianity point of view..

The Father is Emptiness the Tao.

The Father and Jesus being One is a perfect description of Non Duality, of realizing emptiness, of being a Realized Immortal.

Hinduism doesn't have the same concept of emptiness as Taoism or Buddhism or Mystical Christianity. There is Shiva and we are all within Shiva.

ScholarlyTarot
The symbolism and initiations I have encountered with the Tarot (Case, Roberts, Lotterhand, Hulse, Townsend, Wang) intend to show that rather than be in an all encompassing deity, we are that deity, just in its different aspects of being the many. I know, I know, here we go again, the One and the Many, but there really isn't any other out than seeing it as such. It is fascinating to see other systems and views and how they have been dealt with.

[Svaroga]

I prefer Lao Tzu, its been a bit since I read Tao Te Ching but compared to Jesus(I'm still on the Torah) the Dao is more flexible as it is not about submitting to some strict deity but the idea that seeing the world for its flow and successive conclusions of events and then deciding based on that
(Thats what I understood from the Tao Te Ching correct me if I'm wrong) which means I have a lot of choices to interact with the flow of the world(You can see I understand Taoism more metaphorically than literally).


Jesus from what I know said a number of things common across religions like like your neighbor, forgive, give to the poor etc however I have no interest in submitting under Yahweh and his rules.
Yahweh punishes those who deny him cuddles, this is a very dangerous relationship and thus Yahweh to me is a toxic person.
Yahweh's Jesus phase wasn't much of a sacrifice if it was just him all along and could have done anything to change his own situation.
As a metaphor Daoism wins me because you can sail the world in sort of more lax realpolitik way.
(I do not seek to offend any one who worships Yahweh or similar figures please do not perceive this as an attack).