Do I have to like people?

[Bhavani]

Hi, I am posting in the ND forum as that is where my beliefs lie.
I have kind of had it with liking everyone.
There is a certain notion that spiritual types should deeply love everyone.
Isnt is possible to know that we are a love manifestation, whilst also not liking people?
Of course there is the idea of projection. That what I dislike in another is what needs to be healed in oneself.
And of course to give time to healing a self, only furthers the ignorance.
I like most people. I easily tolerate just about everyone. But I do dislike someone.
I am now moving from: "overcome your dislike, they are another one having a human experience", to...."nah, i dont know why, but I really dislike the that person even though they appear to be harmless, and i will now accept my dislike". It feels better (more correct) to just give up trying to like them when I dont.
Any thoughts?
Obviously I am not at full realization, but appreciate the perspective of you non dualists on this.
TA :):hug3:

[Rah nam]

I have wondered, since I came back here, what the title: Non Duality stands for. We live in a dualistic Universe and even if we move into the next level of vibration, there is still dualism, just to a lesser degree.
Sorry Bhavani, I know this has very little to do with your post.
Love and like are very different energies. If I like someone then I don't mind sitting down and have a conversation. For me, there is more then 80% of the worlds population I don't like to have a conversation with.
Do I love everyone, as well as everything there is? Certainly.
Do I do this all the time? As long as I am in this reality I have to become aware, and I am not aware all the time. This is the nature of this reality.
And I have to make a conscious connection with at least my soul, who has a connection with a monad who has a connection to source. And this is where the energy we call love originates.
Quite honestly, it is easy to love everyone and everything, but I would not want to like everyone. I am an introvert and I like my peace and quiet.

[iamthat]

It is possible to love someone on the level of consciousness while disliking them on the level of personality. And I agree that it may be due to projection - the other person may reflect some aspect of ourselves we have not yet accepted.

This dislike may be due to old karmic connections - even if there is no obvious reason to dislike someone perhaps there is a karmic link that needs to be resolved.

Or there may be some other subtle energy factors which do not resonate regarding yourself and this other person, eg astrological.

Perhaps this person has appeared in your life to teach you something about yourself. If this person is actually causing any difficulties for you then I am a great believer in ho'oponopono, which simply means accepting that we are responsible for all that appears in our life. And if someone is causing us problems we mentally apologise for whatever we might have done to create the situation. It is very simple, but the results can be startling.

But all apparent differences are superficial - when we get beyond them we learn to appreciate qualities in other people who we might originally have considered as difficult.

And from a deeper non-dualistic perspective, it is all Lila, the Divine play of illusion. People are what they are and it doesn't matter how they are. We are all just actors, temporarily playing our parts on a stage, and when the play is over we will pack up and go home.

Peace.

[Eelco]

Sometimes people behave as jerks.
It's fine to not like them.

From a non-dual perspective the same needs drive them as they drive you. There's no duality there.

They just take it to a place which is so different from your values and ideals that they appear incomprehensible from your current perspective.

Accept it and move on. No point in lingering in your dislike..

With Love
Eelco

[Bhavani]

Sometimes people behave as jerks.
It's fine to not like them.

From a non-dual perspective the same needs drive them as they drive you. There's no duality there.

They just take it to a place which is so different from your values and ideals that they appear incomprehensible from your current perspective.

Accept it and move on. No point in lingering in your dislike..

With Love
Eelco

Thank you Eelco. Yes ideals different. I have to live with this person. They don't act like a nasty person. The best I can describe is : it's a vibe thing. I won't try and fix it or encourage it. Acceptance yea 😀 thank you.

[Bhavani]

It is possible to love someone on the level of consciousness while disliking them on the level of personality. And I agree that it may be due to projection - the other person may reflect some aspect of ourselves we have not yet accepted.

This dislike may be due to old karmic connections - even if there is no obvious reason to dislike someone perhaps there is a karmic link that needs to be resolved.

Or there may be some other subtle energy factors which do not resonate regarding yourself and this other person, eg astrological.

Perhaps this person has appeared in your life to teach you something about yourself. If this person is actually causing any difficulties for you then I am a great believer in ho'oponopono, which simply means accepting that we are responsible for all that appears in our life. And if someone is causing us problems we mentally apologise for whatever we might have done to create the situation. It is very simple, but the results can be startling.

But all apparent differences are superficial - when we get beyond them we learn to appreciate qualities in other people who we might originally have considered as difficult.

And from a deeper non-dualistic perspective, it is all Lila, the Divine play of illusion. People are what they are and it doesn't matter how they are. We are all just actors, temporarily playing our parts on a stage, and when the play is over we will pack up and go home.

Peace.

Thank you I am that! I am glad I asked as the mind uses it as something to grasp to. Better to put a bit of light on it. Interesting you mention subtle energy. Thus is a housemate. When he moved in he took room next door to me. I didn't sleep for 18 nights. I was ragged! ! Took me 14 nights to figure out it started his first night in there. He wasn't noisy at all. My landlady got him to move room and hey presto I slept. They all expected me to not sleep when the next person moved in. I chose the next person. I told them it was an energetic clash but they thought I was nuts and insisted I'd have to soundproof my room!! Not so. I sleep fine even though my new neighbor is a loud snorer! Because the one I dislike is in the house a lot, I end up trying to be out as much as possible. I instantly relax when he is not there. Sometimes I don't know he is not there and notice I've been at peace for hours and then he comes back and I think "aha". Feels so tense all the time when he's here. Maybe it's like magnets repulsing each other.
It could be karmic ties. Who knows?
Anyway thank you for indulging this with your wise words.
It helps my non existent mind to settle! !
Thank you.

[Bhavani]

I have wondered, since I came back here, what the title: Non Duality stands for. We live in a dualistic Universe and even if we move into the next level of vibration, there is still dualism, just to a lesser degree.
Sorry Bhavani, I know this has very little to do with your post.
Love and like are very different energies. If I like someone then I don't mind sitting down and have a conversation. For me, there is more then 80% of the worlds population I don't like to have a conversation with.
Do I love everyone, as well as everything there is? Certainly.
Do I do this all the time? As long as I am in this reality I have to become aware, and I am not aware all the time. This is the nature of this reality.
And I have to make a conscious connection with at least my soul, who has a connection with a monad who has a connection to source. And this is where the energy we call love originates.
Quite honestly, it is easy to love everyone and everything, but I would not want to like everyone. I am an introvert and I like my peace and quiet.

Thank you sincerely Rah nam! ! I am very grateful for your reply. Although I don't exist (!) , I do seem to have opinions and I guess as long as I don't let the opinions create unwanted fluctuations in the mind then all good, it's part of the process.
You have helped me to feel normal. And this in turn aids acceptance of it, exactly how it is. I don't need to change a thing. If dislike is there , then it's there. Same goes for like.
You're very eloquent. Thank you ☺

[SaturninePluto]

Hi, I am posting in the ND forum as that is where my beliefs lie.
I have kind of had it with liking everyone.
There is a certain notion that spiritual types should deeply love everyone.
Isnt is possible to know that we are a love manifestation, whilst also not liking people?
Of course there is the idea of projection. That what I dislike in another is what needs to be healed in oneself.
And of course to give time to healing a self, only furthers the ignorance.
I like most people. I easily tolerate just about everyone. But I do dislike someone.
I am now moving from: "overcome your dislike, they are another one having a human experience", to...."nah, i dont know why, but I really dislike the that person even though they appear to be harmless, and i will now accept my dislike". It feels better (more correct) to just give up trying to like them when I dont.
Any thoughts?
Obviously I am not at full realization, but appreciate the perspective of you non dualists on this.
TA :):hug3:

Sometimes, imo, it is better to finally give in to how we feel, and allow ourselves to feel what it is we are really feeling. Without blame for ourselves, but with the simple realization that no matter how we may try to fake it, this is truly how we currently feel.

It brings us relief, imo, when we come to realize, we are most certainly not obligated to like everyone, to be spiritual.

It is of my belief that it is actually much more spiritual to be honest with oneself, even if we are told by others what it is we are feeling is not in their eyes "good".

I have learned many lessons from my darker emotions, including the lesson that I do not have to like everyone to be spiritual, neither do I actually even have to be nice all the time necessarily. It is said the truth will set us free.

I find self realization, and honesty about it, refreshing.

Embracing that side of ourselves, that thinks- "I find this person irritating, or annoying, or very angry".

When I feel these feelings myself, I respect myself still at the end of the night, because I was honest with myself.

I don't have to go and tell the person "Hey I don't like you"! But as well, to myself I need hold to no illusion of how I truly feel.

Hoping you come to terms with this.

And come to see in time, that there is truly no blame here. Not for yourself or the other.

All my best.

[Iamit]

If the question is considered from the perspective of you as a person who is chosing then yes all the considerations you refer to come into play. If however the question is considered from the perspective of all happening by and to itself then the problem disappears. But for that to happen there needs to be a resonance with the idea "All is One" and that that Oneness is that "itself" and what is posing the problem and doing the considering.

Either way nothing needs to change from that nondual perspective, for each proposition is the other and the One Love in action dreaming difference where there is none.

[innerlight]

Sometimes people behave as jerks.
It's fine to not like them.


Eelco

If a person behaves as a jerk, as you say, is it the person you dislike or their behavior?

[Shivani Devi]

Hi, I am posting in the ND forum as that is where my beliefs lie.
I have kind of had it with liking everyone.
There is a certain notion that spiritual types should deeply love everyone.
Isnt is possible to know that we are a love manifestation, whilst also not liking people?
Of course there is the idea of projection. That what I dislike in another is what needs to be healed in oneself.
And of course to give time to healing a self, only furthers the ignorance.
I like most people. I easily tolerate just about everyone. But I do dislike someone.
I am now moving from: "overcome your dislike, they are another one having a human experience", to...."nah, i dont know why, but I really dislike the that person even though they appear to be harmless, and i will now accept my dislike". It feels better (more correct) to just give up trying to like them when I dont.
Any thoughts?
Obviously I am not at full realization, but appreciate the perspective of you non dualists on this.
TA :):hug3:To be a total non-dualist means you neither like nor dislike others...you are totally ambivalent towards other people and if you even want to 'go there' in saying they just don't exist or are totally irrelevant/unimportant to your spiritual growth, you can also get to do this, because anybody else who would have a problem with it, or with you isn't your concern anyway.

I have learned that others have way too many unrealistic emotional expectations of me as a member of their species to be able to feel anything for them whatsoever on any level and the less I feel, the more they feel I should, leading to me feeling even less than I did before, until in the end, I can feel nothing...absolutely nothing! If other people want me to be able to feel something for them, they would accept me for who/what I am and not who/what they want me to be in their own minds...however, because human beings are totally incapable of doing this, I'm also totally incapable of feeling like/love/dislike/hate or anything at all....which is a bonus for an advaitin.

[Eelco]

If a person behaves as a jerk, as you say, is it the person you dislike or their behavior?

First their behavior, when they consistently behave like Jerks..
At some point I will come to dislike them. I doubt it says much about them and more about me and that's ok.

With Love
Eelco

[Bhavani]

Yes! Love your words, and thank you for your contribution. No need to voice it, just feel it quietly.

[Nature Grows]

First their behavior, when they consistently behave like Jerks..
At some point I will come to dislike them. I doubt it says much about them and more about me and that's ok.

With Love
Eelco

Yes, honesty is good, if you don't like something you don't like it, when it comes to people sometimes something i do is be like well, they don't know what they are doing, they know what they are doing but in the bigger picture they don't you know? when Jesus was being killed on the cross he even said "God forgive them for they know not what they do" and i think that was very impressive and honourable of him to say in that situation.

[Moondance]

Hi, I am posting in the ND forum as that is where my beliefs lie.
I have kind of had it with liking everyone.
There is a certain notion that spiritual types should deeply love everyone.
Isnt is possible to know that we are a love manifestation, whilst also not liking people?
Of course there is the idea of projection. That what I dislike in another is what needs to be healed in oneself.
And of course to give time to healing a self, only furthers the ignorance.
I like most people. I easily tolerate just about everyone. But I do dislike someone.
I am now moving from: "overcome your dislike, they are another one having a human experience", to...."nah, i dont know why, but I really dislike the that person even though they appear to be harmless, and i will now accept my dislike". It feels better (more correct) to just give up trying to like them when I dont.
Any thoughts?
Obviously I am not at full realization, but appreciate the perspective of you non dualists on this.
TA :):hug3:

Hello Bhavani

Yes, "spiritual types should love everyone" is simply a notion. Not liking certain people is in some respects no different to not liking certain foods, environments, music, art, entertainment and so on.

Every human organism, without fail, will experience some degree of disfavour/aversion and desire/inclination until the day it dies. The difference with a nondual sensibility is that this aversion/desire is seen for what it is - a natural functioning of the whole - an impersonal phenomenon like gravity or indigestion. And in this seeing it tends to pass through with more ease.

[OEN34]

There are a few people I don't 'like', but there is something deeper within that genuinely has love for them, and it's finding that, IMO. Disliking someone is fine IMO - there is a big difference between disliking someone and wishing bad things upon them, which ultimately, is a reflection that inner work needs to be done to get to the root cause of why we think those thoughts.

[linen53]

I've always dislike labels and categories and labels (i.e. non duality).

I stopped "shoulding" on myself. If I feel an emotion I go with it and don't feel guilt. That was not always the case. I used to try to be what I was taught I should do (somebody else's rules).

[Badcopyinc]

If i find myself disliking anyone i ask myself why I'm letting another affect my peace. The issue and solution always comes from me.

I don't seek to befriend everyone. But i get closer and closer to being at peace with "negative" people and situations with age.

[Neenu]

Hi, I am posting in the ND forum as that is where my beliefs lie.
I have kind of had it with liking everyone.
There is a certain notion that spiritual types should deeply love everyone.
Isnt is possible to know that we are a love manifestation, whilst also not liking people?
Of course there is the idea of projection. That what I dislike in another is what needs to be healed in oneself.
And of course to give time to healing a self, only furthers the ignorance.
I like most people. I easily tolerate just about everyone. But I do dislike someone.
I am now moving from: "overcome your dislike, they are another one having a human experience", to...."nah, i dont know why, but I really dislike the that person even though they appear to be harmless, and i will now accept my dislike". It feels better (more correct) to just give up trying to like them when I dont.
Any thoughts?
Obviously I am not at full realization, but appreciate the perspective of you non dualists on this.
TA :):hug3:

Hey Bhavani,

Spirituality is not a hiding place, and cloaking everything in 'love' is just a way of not confronting the true feelings that lie below. Loving everyone is just a way of hiding from your own emotions.

There are several wrathful deities in Buddhism, like Dorje Drollo or Yamantaka. Not everything is always about peace and love, but also about transforming negative to positive. Like tough parenting, it comes from love but can be hard for the child.

We all have the ultimate true Buddha nature in our selves. The true buddha nature is just clouded by our own dualistic mind and loads of karma.

Pain and existential discomfort is one of the best motivators for development spiritually. With spiritually I mean clearing karma and developing clarity of mind and a diminishing sense of self. Not new-agey things, although they might come as a by product as the mind gets clearer and clearer.

As the self diminishes (the sense of me, I, myself), you also have less emotions /dislikes towards people or things. One starts slowly to realize that the stuff happening around is not aimed at you, it is just stuff that happens. There is no you to whom the stuff happens, and so it looses its grip (emotion) on you.

[Bhavani]

Hello Bhavani

The difference with a nondual sensibility is that this aversion/desire is seen for what it is - a natural functioning of the whole - an impersonal phenomenon like gravity or indigestion. And in this seeing it tends to pass through with more ease.

Oooh that's a helpful frame on it. As impersonal as (in)digestion. No harm in using metaphor and concepts to help it sink in. Thank you.

[CrystalSong]

My experience is I love everyone in the Big Picture. However their human identity/personality/ego maybe most unpleasant and I am not required to hang around it.

[Torgo]

Hey Bhavani,

Spirituality is not a hiding place, and cloaking everything in 'love' is just a way of not confronting the true feelings that lie below. Loving everyone is just a way of hiding from your own emotions.

There are several wrathful deities in Buddhism, like Dorje Drollo or Yamantaka. Not everything is always about peace and love, but also about transforming negative to positive. Like tough parenting, it comes from love but can be hard for the child.

We all have the ultimate true Buddha nature in our selves. The true buddha nature is just clouded by our own dualistic mind and loads of karma.

Pain and existential discomfort is one of the best motivators for development spiritually. With spiritually I mean clearing karma and developing clarity of mind and a diminishing sense of self. Not new-agey things, although they might come as a by product as the mind gets clearer and clearer.

As the self diminishes (the sense of me, I, myself), you also have less emotions /dislikes towards people or things. One starts slowly to realize that the stuff happening around is not aimed at you, it is just stuff that happens. There is no you to whom the stuff happens, and so it looses its grip (emotion) on you.

Wow, the first sentence I put in bold really hit me like a ton of bricks. It was the missing piece of the puzzle for me. Thank you.

And I've heard the other stuff in bold so many times before, but for some reason it really resonated just now. Thanks for posting this.

[Iamit]

My experience is I love everyone in the Big Picture. However their human identity/personality/ego maybe most unpleasant and I am not required to hang around it.

If only there was a 'you' to choose to hang around it or not, despite appearances to the contrary:) If it is required for you to hang around it, there is nothing you can do to prevent hanging around it happening. If it is not required for you to hang around it, there is nothing you can do to make hanging around it happen:)

"If you want to understand the Secrets of the Universe think in terms of Energy, Frequency and Vibration"

Great quote. At least if you want to understand the nature of resonance, in particular when the resonance is between one's mind frequency/vibration and the frequency/vibration of the concept "All is One"

Mind (KA BOOM) blowing:)

[davidsun]

Hi, I am posting in the ND forum as that is where my beliefs lie.
I have kind of had it with liking everyone.
There is a certain notion that spiritual types should deeply love everyone.
Isnt is possible to know that we are a love manifestation, whilst also not liking people?
Of course there is the idea of projection. That what I dislike in another is what needs to be healed in oneself.
And of course to give time to healing a self, only furthers the ignorance.
I like most people. I easily tolerate just about everyone. But I do dislike someone.
I am now moving from: "overcome your dislike, they are another one having a human experience", to...."nah, i dont know why, but I really dislike the that person even though they appear to be harmless, and i will now accept my dislike". It feels better (more correct) to just give up trying to like them when I dont.
Any thoughts?
Obviously I am not at full realization, but appreciate the perspective of you non dualists on this.
TA :):hug3:
If and when you LOVE something (like Life Itself) of someone (like another person), the issue of whether you LIKE or don't LIKE them becomes IRRELEVANT. The issue/point then becomes what will (and won't!) SERVE to promote/advance THEIR 'development' in a positively FLOWERing (of greater goodness/love) way/result.
:cool:

P.S. To 'drive' my point 'home': Do you think a mother/father/brother/sister LIKE's the 'smell' of a bay's SH*T? :icon_eek:

[Tobi]

Viewed en-masse, humans can be a blasted nuisance....

Yet individually it's weird. How many times I have come across someone with whom I haven't the slightest thing in common, and yet I can't help "liking them". Yes that's weird. Sometimes I just see them in a deeper-down way and just want to give them a hug spontaneously and for no good reason, but don't because they probably wouldn't like it.
Some humans are worse than cats...:D

[Nature Grows]

You know what I don't like, the thing I don't like that some people do is, when I am walking through the shopping mall or any place really going somewhere and some people cut In front of me an walk really slow, I also don't like it when people take for ever to do something, so I have to wait for them, like we need to fix the car for example but they want to take there time and just make the process longer then it has to be by also doing other things to the car as well that don't need to be done, another example if we are going somewhere but the person I am with is taking for ever to get ready or sort stuff. Another one is someone is trying to do something maybe on a GPS in a car for example and doesn't know what they are doing, but thinks they do and just sit there trying to figure something out that I could do in one second.

I don't like it when people are slow and stupid basically especially when stuff needs to be done, stupidity on its own is ok cause it can be funny, but slowness mixed with stupid.. no! .... rant over.

[revolver]

Its nothing about loving everyone, its all about knowing that most are asleep and don't realize who they truly are, for this reason we should have compassion for those who are still asleep, after all we were once asleep.

[Torgo]

Its nothing about loving everyone, its all about knowing that most are asleep and don't realize who they truly are, for this reason we should have compassion for those who are still asleep, after all we were once asleep.

This is great, too. Thanks for that.

[Torgo]

It's liberating to know that's it's okay-- where I am right now in my evolution-- that I don't have to like or love everyone. With more experiences and ego death I am sure I will get to a point of feeling more connected and see things as they really are. But for right now it's empowering to know that my job is to simply identify my emotions when they arise instead of denying them. Once I can identify them, I can liberate them and go beyond old toxic patterns and then *honestly* have some room for compassion and awareness to grow.

For example, this morning I thought long and hard about a couple of people that don't like me and I don't like them. Instead of trying to wonder why we all just can't be friends, I just sat there and accepted that I don't like them. They don't like me. Period. And I didn't try to change this or control it by finding ways out of the discomfort of it. I just sat there and felt it.

And the more I thought about how I don't like them and how they don't like me, etc., I found myself actually genuinely liking things about them. I still don't want to be their friend or let them use me as a doormat, but I can now honestly appreciate from afar things about them that are wonderful. I didn't have to force myself to feel those things-- it just naturally and honestly flowed. But I still maintain my boundaries. It's stating to make sense how attachments and aversions really have no weight. It all becomes equal weight eventually.

Anyway just thought I'd share. Thanks for this thread. It's been helpful.

[davidsun]

Anyway just thought I'd share. Thanks for this thread. It's been helpful.
WOOHOO! :love9:

[eputkonen]

Hi, I am posting in the ND forum as that is where my beliefs lie.
I have kind of had it with liking everyone.
There is a certain notion that spiritual types should deeply love everyone.
Isnt is possible to know that we are a love manifestation, whilst also not liking people?


As the Third Chinese Chan (Zen) Patriarch Seng’tsan said in the Hsin Hsin Ming (https://www.scribd.com/doc/11505262/Hsin-Hsin-Ming-Verses-on-the-Perfect-Mind)...it starts out with...


The Great Way is not difficult,
for those who have no preferences.
Let go of longing and aversion,
and it reveals itself.

Make the smallest distinction, however,
and you are as far from it as heaven is from earth.
If you want to realize the truth,
then hold no opinions for or against anything.

Like and dislike
is the disease of the mind.

Like and dislike part of the illusions of the mind and egoic in nature. Forget about liking or not liking...just accept what is as it is.

[Moondance]

As the Third Chinese Chan (Zen) Patriarch Seng’tsan said in the Hsin Hsin Ming (https://www.scribd.com/doc/11505262/Hsin-Hsin-Ming-Verses-on-the-Perfect-Mind)...it starts out with...



Like and dislike part of the illusions of the mind and egoic in nature. Forget about liking or not liking...just accept what is as it is.

Hi Eric

I find a pointer like ‘just accept what is as it is’ to be nebulous and misleading. Which part of your experience are you meant to accept? If someone walked into your house and started removing your computer would you accept that? Of course not - there would be an impulse to prevent them. Should you accept that impulse? But isn't that impulse born out of a wish for things to be different therefore not accepting the present situation? These sort of questions highlight the limitation and murky nature of the pointer.

The pointer is (innocently enough) born out of the realisation that all there is is what is - THIS, however THIS manifests. In the seeing of this there is, by default, the acknowledgement/acceptance that whatever happens - and whatever response that elicits - it is already the expression of a deeper principle at work. It is the recognition of the deeper principle that is key here.

[Dargor]

I live by one rule: Like the likable and dislike the dislikable. If you want to follow this rule or not is up to you, but personally I don't see any use in liking toxic people because they simply aren't worthy to be liked by the likes of me.

[eputkonen]

Hi Eric

I find a pointer like ‘just accept what is as it is’ to be nebulous and misleading. Which part of your experience are you meant to accept? If someone walked into your house and started removing your computer would you accept that? Of course not - there would be an impulse to prevent them. Should you accept that impulse? But isn't that impulse born out of a wish for things to be different therefore not accepting the present situation? These sort of questions highlight the limitation and murky nature of the pointer.

The pointer is (innocently enough) born out of the realisation that all there is is what is - THIS, however THIS manifests. In the seeing of this there is, by default, the acknowledgement/acceptance that whatever happens - and whatever response that elicits - it is already the expression of a deeper principle at work. It is the recognition of the deeper principle that is key here.

Perhaps instead of accepting...which is an egoic action...how about non-resisitng and non-denying. You do not resist or deny that someone is in the house and taking the computer. However, this does not mean you can not decide to stop the person from taking the computer. Acting for change does not necessarily mean you are resisting or denying the reality of what is going on.

Said more generically...yes, you accept that someone is in the house stealing the computer...but then you can act to change the situation. You accept the outcome regardless...whether successfully stopping the robbery or not.

[Torgo]

Hi Eric

I find a pointer like ‘just accept what is as it is’ to be nebulous and misleading. Which part of your experience are you meant to accept? If someone walked into your house and started removing your computer would you accept that? Of course not - there would be an impulse to prevent them. Should you accept that impulse? But isn't that impulse born out of a wish for things to be different therefore not accepting the present situation? These sort of questions highlight the limitation and murky nature of the pointer.

The pointer is (innocently enough) born out of the realisation that all there is is what is - THIS, however THIS manifests. In the seeing of this there is, by default, the acknowledgement/acceptance that whatever happens - and whatever response that elicits - it is already the expression of a deeper principle at work. It is the recognition of the deeper principle that is key here.


Perhaps instead of accepting...which is an egoic action...how about non-resisitng and non-denying. You do not resist or deny that someone is in the house and taking the computer. However, this does not mean you can not decide to stop the person from taking the computer. Acting for change does not necessarily mean you are resisting or denying the reality of what is going on.

Said more generically...yes, you accept that someone is in the house stealing the computer...but then you can act to change the situation. You accept the outcome regardless...whether successfully stopping the robbery or not.

Ooohhh I love examples!!! And because of that, I think you two have helped me to realize a lot of things with this. I was going to type out a long response to see if you thought I "got it," but I think it's best I don't. I'm pretty sure I understand things much more clearly now though. Thank you. :)

[dream jo]

no 1 shud forsess sum 1 2 lk sum1

[Moondance]

no 1 shud forsess sum 1 2 lk sum1

Yes, dream jo, whether you like someone or not can’t be forced. Sometimes, for whatever reason, people just don’t click. It’s not always an ego-identification thing - even animals and birds have their differences.

[Moondance]

Perhaps instead of accepting...which is an egoic action...how about non-resisitng and non-denying. You do not resist or deny that someone is in the house and taking the computer. However, this does not mean you can not decide to stop the person from taking the computer. Acting for change does not necessarily mean you are resisting or denying the reality of what is going on.

Said more generically...yes, you accept that someone is in the house stealing the computer...but then you can act to change the situation. You accept the outcome regardless...whether successfully stopping the robbery or not.

Yes. It’s more of an acknowledgement of the reality of the situation.

I’ve never been a big fan of the Hsin Hsin Ming. Some of it seems to have been written from an idealised projection of what realisation entails. In the light of realisation beyond ego-identification the body-mind-personality is still a functioning unit of nature and subject to preferences. If there wasn’t an affinity for heavy metal, prawns, Simon Cowell and racism prior to realisation it’s unlikely that that would change.

[eputkonen]

In the light of realisation beyond ego-identification the body-mind-personality is still a functioning unit of nature and subject to preferences.

Yes, but there is no attachment to the preference...it doesn't NEED to go your way (so to speak).

I can prefer the heat rather than the cold...but I do not insist that I am never cold. I still live in Minnesota - where the winters are very cold...it is not resisted or denied when it is cold out. There is no suffering in being cold.

[davidsun]

Yes, but there is no attachment to the preference...it doesn't NEED to go your way (so to speak).
I relate to the notion of 'sports' being a kind of (Western) 'yoga'. You can have a desired 'goal' (preference, whatever) and keep on playing/going for it without being 'upset' if and when the flow isn't or doesn't 'go' as one wishes to.

It helps to have a 'practice'* (a 'sport' if you will) where the desired 'result isn't always attained in order to learn to quickly identify any 'attachment'-proneness (a 'greenhorn' tendency) on one's own part - and the importance of 'jettisoning' it - I think.

* Note this is not the kind of 'yoga' practice where one regularly approaches something in a route-ine same way (following the same set of guidelines/principles, etc.).

I found reading scientific research-based book Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Experience by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi quite enlightening :biggrin: in this regard.

Here's a link to a short review for anyone interested in checking it out:
https://medium.com/just-finished/flow-book-review-5990dd8b8ab7

[dream jo]

it gets me mad wen a perssnn trys 2 forses u 2 luv thm lk
a man meet a womenn he trys 2 foress her luv it will problyy tru turnn2 hateee lk visee verssa
its lk kids u cnt foresse thm 2 be frinedd on pepepl thy dnt get on

[eputkonen]

I relate to the notion of 'sports' being a kind of (Western) 'yoga'. You can have a desired 'goal' (preference, whatever) and keep on playing/going for it without being 'upset' if and when the flow isn't or doesn't 'go' as one wishes to.

Agreed. I sometimes relate to sports or a game - like monopoly, life, etc.

You can play sincerely (trying to win) without taking it seriously (need to win).

[davidsun]

You can play sincerely (trying to win) without taking it seriously (need to win).
:thumbsup: eputkonen!

U2 Moondance and U3 dream jo!!

:biggrin:

[Moondance]

Yes, but there is no attachment to the preference...it doesn't NEED to go your way (so to speak).

I can prefer the heat rather than the cold...but I do not insist that I am never cold. I still live in Minnesota - where the winters are very cold...it is not resisted or denied when it is cold out. There is no suffering in being cold.

Right. So it’s not so much about dropping liking and not liking - these are natural functionings of the body-mind-personality. It’s about a modification of the relationship to these natural occurrences in the light of realisation.

As I get older I don’t think I'd be able to take those Minnesota winters - I’d probably be thinking about moving by now. Practical solutions are my first stop for practical challenges. Which reminds me of a story (I'm paraphrasing) about a woman who went to see Poonjaji (or it might have been Nisargadatta) bemoaning the fact that she lived above a garage workshop and was subject to noise from machinery and power tools all day long. She explained that she had tried to meditate through it, questioned ‘who is it that is so distressed’ and earnestly tried to accept the situation. She begged Poonjaji, ‘please give me some spiritual advice - what should I do’. Without hesitation, he told her that she should move.

[davidsun]

Without hesitation, he told her that she should move.
Yah, sometimes intellectualizations can be worshiped like 'golden calf' idols!

Reminds me about the joke attributed to Mohammad, It is told that he said: "Have faith in God, but tie your camel."

LOL

[eputkonen]

Right. So it’s not so much about dropping liking and not liking - these are natural functionings of the body-mind-personality. It’s about a modification of the relationship to these natural occurrences in the light of realisation.

That opens the door (so to speak) too widely. After awakening/enlightenment, many preferences (likes and dislikes) fall away. For example, disliking the here and now...or disliking something in the past. Disliking in general has mostly fallen away. When I have a preferences, often it is a preference between something liked and something else liked a little more...but either is acceptable and would be enjoyed. The preference doesn't really matter.

If there is no separation...no other...what is really going on when something is disliked? It is a dislike for oneSelf...as there is only the Self.

[davidsun]

That opens the door (so to speak) too widely. After awakening/enlightenment, many preferences (likes and dislikes) fall away. For example, disliking the here and now...or disliking something in the past. Disliking in general has mostly fallen away. When I have a preferences, often it is a preference between something liked and something else liked a little more...but either is acceptable and would be enjoyed. The preference doesn't really matter.

If there is no separation...no other...what is really going on when something is disliked? It is a dislike for oneSelf...as there is only the Self.
Yah, deep philosophy (as in deep ecology) here. Focus on preference (both as a concept and as an experience) gets rid :smile: of the 'dis' (disrespect) and 'non' (non-acceptance) and 'lack' (lack of 'appreciation' of the presence of possibilities) implicit in e-motion-ally dis'like'ing something or some condition.

[Moondance]

That opens the door (so to speak) too widely. After awakening/enlightenment, many preferences (likes and dislikes) fall away. For example, disliking the here and now...or disliking something in the past. Disliking in general has mostly fallen away. When I have a preferences, often it is a preference between something liked and something else liked a little more...but either is acceptable and would be enjoyed. The preference doesn't really matter.

For the purposes of this particular discussion I think that the distinction between liking something and liking something not so much broadly fits in with how the words ‘like’ and ‘dislike’ were practically intended (see Bhavani’s original post.) The point remains that a spectrum of preference persists in biological and psychologically conditioned body-mind-personalities. Realisation doesn’t completely extinguish this but will affect (modify) the intensity and duration of certain types of aversion.

If there is no separation...no other...what is really going on when something is disliked? It is a dislike for oneSelf...as there is only the Self.

This is a common form of faulty reasoning due to the mixing of the relative and absolute. You may as well admonish the footballer for kicking Self, or the chef for chopping up Self, or indeed, all of us for flushing Self down the loo.

[davidsun]

This is a common form of faulty reasoning due to the mixing of the relative and absolute. You may as well admonish the footballer for kicking Self, or the chef for chopping up Self, or indeed, all of us for flushing Self down the loo.
:D

XOXOXOXOXOXO (added to make the post long enough for the board to accept it)

[eputkonen]

For the purposes of this particular discussion I think that the distinction between liking something and liking something not so much broadly fits in with how the words ‘like’ and ‘dislike’ were practically intended (see Bhavani’s original post.) The point remains that a spectrum of preference persists in biological and psychologically conditioned body-mind-personalities. Realisation doesn’t completely extinguish this but will affect (modify) the intensity and duration of certain types of aversion.

This is a common form of faulty reasoning due to the mixing of the relative and absolute. You may as well admonish the footballer for kicking Self, or the chef for chopping up Self, or indeed, all of us for flushing Self down the loo.

Aversion is a reaction from illusions of the mind.
With the occurrence of enlightenment, aversion vanishes.

The faulty reasoning is yours, because ceasing to be averse because of the deep understanding that there is only the Self...is not the same as kicking a football, chopping an onion, or flushing poop. Sure, it is all the Self...but no judgment is made about the football, onion, or poop...there was not aversion to them.

[Moondance]

Aversion is a reaction from illusions of the mind.
With the occurrence of enlightenment, aversion vanishes.

The faulty reasoning is yours, because ceasing to be averse because of the deep understanding that there is only the Self...is not the same as kicking a football, chopping an onion, or flushing poop. Sure, it is all the Self...but no judgment is made about the football, onion, or poop...there was not aversion to them.

Aversion can be a reaction from illusions of the mind but not always. Animals are averse to many things - as are babies.

You’ll see that I mentioned ‘certain types of aversion’. If there is an aversion to snakes (for instance), realisation is unlikely to cure this but the intensity of the reaction and its duration will be scaled down. As I said, a spectrum of preference persists in biological and psychologically conditioned body-mind-personalities. Realisation doesn’t completely extinguish this though it can modify it.

I’m certain that you have preferences, Eric. You probably have a sexual preference, preferences for certain foods or beverages, music (surely most of us prefer anything to Barry Manilow), perhaps you are wary of (the aforementioned) snakes or spiders etc.

—————

The faulty reasoning was in the mixing of relative and absolute. I’m pointing out that, yes, ALL is Self (or Source or Reality or Oneness…) And that includes the whole play of phenomenality and its various expressions and relative dualities.

[davidsun]

I think you are either missing or just stubbornly refusing to validate the significances of Moondance's meaningful points, Eric - maybe because you are 'averse' (lol) to their implications - which pertaining to any and all 'incarnate' being IMO.

[sentient]

If there is an aversion to snakes (for instance), realisation is unlikely to cure this but the intensity of the reaction and its duration will be scaled down.
It is not my like or dislike that determines what my reaction or response to a snake is.
It is the nature of the snake that spells it out for me.

One of the poisonous black snake species in Australia is so openly curious that they can come very close, just to see what you are doing.
And when you are well within a striking distance of one, and yet there is an aura of trust i.e. you know beyond any doubt the snake is not going to strike – the situation becomes enchanting. Talking about snakes that are real charmers.

Facing a Taipan is a different story. There is an aura or air of distrust about them as “they are extremely nervous and alert snakes, and any movement near them is likely to trigger an attack”.
They are a knee-jerk reflex type - hair trigger snakes.

[eputkonen]

As a young girl, my mom once was approached by a baby snake in the wild and kept it as a pet. It would coil between and around her fingers...threading itself up and down the hand. She loved it. One day some adults saw it and killed it...it was a poisonous snake.

[davidsun]

As a young girl, my mom once was approached by a baby snake in the wild and kept it as a pet. It would coil between and around her fingers...threading itself up and down the hand. She loved it. One day some adults saw it and killed it...it was a poisonous snake.
REALLY thought-provoking account. But what is your point in relation to the topic at hand?

[sentient]

As a young girl, my mom once was approached by a baby snake in the wild and kept it as a pet. It would coil between and around her fingers...threading itself up and down the hand. She loved it. One day some adults saw it and killed it...it was a poisonous snake.
Oh no!
That was a dagger right through the heart, - story.

Whether we do have aversion towards snakes or not can be one of those (culturally created) collective subconscious programs in the background of our conscious minds, which do interpret and give meaning to the experience.

I used to dream about snakes - a lot.
Most often I would have the same dream where I would be standing in front of a big tree with a huge snake on its branches and then some people would come by - intending to kill it - and I would go into an angry-panicky defense mode to save the snake.

I also had the same instant, compulsive (subconscious) knee-jerk panic reaction in real life situations when people talked about or were about to kill snakes.

The other day I read about the Tree and Serpent Worship of Ural-Altaic (Turanian) peoples and true enough - the offerings taken to the Sacred Trees were also for the 'pet' Snake(s) living underneath it.

And the Shamanic healer’s costume would have a symbol of a snake - or a snake in the belt or in the medicine pouch hanging off the belt, as Snake was/is one of the healer’s Animal Spirit Helpers.

And Spiders – My grandmother used to say: “Don’t kill a Spider, for she is your Mother!”

[ajay00]

My experience is I love everyone in the Big Picture.

I would say you have compassion for all but love for those you know and are intimate with.


However their human identity/personality/ego maybe most unpleasant and I am not required to hang around it.

The ego is unconscious desires in the form of cravings and aversions, and due to the emotional energy invested in it, it is usually quite agitated and ugly.

So I empathise with your need not to hang around it. Compassion and understanding of human nature can enable you to forgive or be patient with egomaniacs driven by strong desires.

[sentient]

Still on about snakes ....

Well, obviously if you come from a background where serpents or snakes are regarded in a positive light or role (script) - then your subconscious reaction to them is likely to be different than if you subconsciously, automatically associate snakes with evil and a manifestation of Satan (script).

And if you had a magical non-dualistic moment in time/space with a venomous snake – the high transparency of the situation enabling you to directly know within each other’s intents (hearts), then the situation turns into a kind of an “enchanted dance” and one might even be able to handle the snake. And then if somebody ‘out of the blue, or from the left field’ suddenly comes in and clobbers the ‘Satan’ to death - to teach you about ‘true faith’ – well ……..

If you are a New Ager, then you probably refer to signs and symbols (script) and think that a snake appearing in your life is an omen of “rebirth, transformation” or something. (Till some indigenous person ‘from the left field’ comes in and ridicules you for it and clobbers your openness and willingness to question and to re-evaluate).

But after awakening?
I see awakening as a shift into a heightened sensitivity & awareness of energy, energy movements and of energy fields and since energy is constantly in a state of flux – anything can then potentially be anything at any time. The snake appearing can be an opening into a non-dual communion shift or it can be the Satan itself or an omen of transformation or something entirely different. Like or dislike scripts won’t apply anymore, only an open question “What Is” does. And yesterday’s answer to “What Is, is already tomorrows lie.

[davidsun]

I see awakening as a shift into a heightened sensitivity & awareness of energy, energy movements and of energy fields and since energy is constantly in a state of flux – anything can then potentially be anything at any time. The snake appearing can be an opening into a non-dual communion shift or it can be the Satan itself or an omen of transformation or something entirely different. Like or dislike scripts won’t apply anymore, only an open question “What Is” does. And yesterday’s answer to “What Is, is already tomorrows lie.
Deep!

Though one may still 'like' being 'in' harmonious flow, communion, whatever you wish to call it, with (todays') Life, i.e. with What Is, more than being 'out' of it!
:smile:

[calisushi810]

We think about "liking" or "disliking" people, but the reality is everyone is shaped by their experiences and expectations ..sometimes the expectation to what we perceive to be our voice and the voice of others to be can be blurred. Take time to explore who you are, and realize other people are like you, doing their best and living their lives based on what they believe. Your similarities with others will amaze you, and you might begin thinking the problems that people have stem from the same type of place you own problems stem. An old maxim is to see the good in everyone , take it further, try to understand yourself and understand others , and the idea of like and dislikes might dissipate. You might begin seeing things in the light where you only have understanding without any haste or angst

[davidsun]

We think about "liking" or "disliking" people, but the reality is everyone is shaped by their experiences and expectations ..sometimes the expectation to what we perceive to be our voice and the voice of others to be can be blurred. Take time to explore who you are, and realize other people are like you, doing their best and living their lives based on what they believe. Your similarities with others will amaze you, and you might begin thinking the problems that people have stem from the same type of place you own problems stem. An old maxim is to see the good in everyone , take it further, try to understand yourself and understand others , and the idea of like and dislikes might dissipate. You might begin seeing things in the light where you only have understanding without any haste or angst
'Understanding' => 'appreciation' (of similarities or 'reasons' for something or someone being the way it of he or she is) => 'loving' said thing or person as a 'wonder-full' aspect of Life.

'Liking' and 'disliking' are matters of personal preference deriving from whether and how one thinks, feels and believes said something or someone as enhancing or amplifying or degrading and diminishing one's and/or others experiences of Life.

The two, 'liking' and 'loving' are non-identically but each in its own way (potentially) functional ways of 'living'.

One can 'like' and 'dislike' without 'angst' just as one can 'love' without 'angst'.

'Angst' is the 'devil' :biggrin: here.

[revolver]

We think about "liking" or "disliking" people, but the reality is everyone is shaped by their experiences and expectations ..sometimes the expectation to what we perceive to be our voice and the voice of others to be can be blurred. Take time to explore who you are, and realize other people are like you, doing their best and living their lives based on what they believe. Your similarities with others will amaze you, and you might begin thinking the problems that people have stem from the same type of place you own problems stem. An old maxim is to see the good in everyone , take it further, try to understand yourself and understand others , and the idea of like and dislikes might dissipate. You might begin seeing things in the light where you only have understanding without any haste or angst
Well said.:smile:

[pdizzle45]

'Understanding' => 'appreciation' (of similarities or 'reasons' for something or someone being the way it of he or she is) => 'loving' said thing or person as a 'wonder-full' aspect of Life.

'Liking' and 'disliking' are matters of personal preference deriving from whether and how one thinks, feels and believes said something or someone as enhancing or amplifying or degrading and diminishing one's and/or others experiences of Life.

The two, 'liking' and 'loving' are non-identically but each in its own way (potentially) functional ways of 'living'.

One can 'like' and 'dislike' without 'angst' just as one can 'love' without 'angst'.

'Angst' is the 'devil' :biggrin: here.

I enjoyed your information filled rebuttal to naturewalker24's incisive attempt at bridging this arbitrary idea that we should like or dislike people. That being said, I will elaborate even further on your explanation by exploring my local dictionary.

Like- Its an adjective, corresponding or agreeing in general or some noticeable respect.

Devil- according to wikipedia, The Devil is the personification and archetype:smile: of evil in various cultures.

[davidsun]

One can 'like' and 'dislike' without 'angst' just as one can 'love' without 'angst'.

'Angst' is the 'devil' here.

Devil- according to wikipedia, The Devil is the personification and archetype:smile: of evil in various cultures.

I think feeling 'angst' is the result of wanting (in the sense of needing) something (or things in general) to be other (i.e. different) than they are. Loving what is as it is means accepting and embracing what is as it is and seeing/utilizing it as an opportunity to enjoy 'playing' with Life (as it is), which 'play' may include things like moving towards greater enjoyment (what one 'likes' more) and moving away from what one 'likes' less, i.e. from what one dislikes, relatively speaking, and/or becoming more understanding, accepting and embracing (i.e. 'loving') of what is as it is (this, whether one is presently able to move towards what one like more or away from what one likes less or not).

Speaking of the 'Devil' (in the details), here's a relevant (I think) passage from the book I wrote. The phrase "idealization-fantasy" in it addresses the phenomenon of 'wanting' something to be other/different than it is:

Fortunately, the very severity of the crises those who are errant bring upon themselves and subject others around them to also serves as a catalyst for positive change in those who have as yet underutilized capacity to acknowledge and constructively relate to the truth. Whether such eventuality is welcomed or not, sooner or later, particularly after repeated or lengthy trial and tribulation, when their strength is depleted, beleaguered individuals experience a state of psychospiritual ‘bankruptcy’, in which the hope of attaining idealization-fantasy fulfillment ‘dies’, and they starkly see that even seeking to compensate themselves for such unfulfillment by means of substitute desire-gratification dooms them to endless effort, if not utter frustration and futility.

They enter a phase, poetically alluded to as ‘the dark night of the soul’, characterized initially by feelings of upset and anger, then despair, followed by sadness, depression and, ultimately, resignation, in which yearning and striving for what they desire, because satisfaction continually eludes them, finally cease. Sense of purpose is lost. What they do or don’t do then matters little to them, if at all. Life seems a cruel joke, if not meaningless. The process continues, generally in waves and spurts, till they fully accept the fact that they cannot have things be the way them want them to be (or not be the way they want them not to be). In the end, truly humbled, they reach the point where they stop being egocentrically willful and demanding, whatever their personal predilection and preference may have been or yet be.

Then, because no longer preoccupied with dreams of idealization-fantasy fulfillment and schemes aimed at attaining the same, they begin to be open to truly savoring and appreciating actualities and possibilities that are inherent in, and so embrace and act to creatively enhance, their and others present condition and circumstance, whatever this happens to be. As a result of becoming disillusioned regarding the possibility of actualizing and enjoying what, because of comparison-based sensation and logic, they previously mentally and emotionally fixated on as ‘ideal’, by default as it were, without specifically intending to, they organically rediscover and reexperience {remember what you life was like when you were 'happy' as a child? you were sometimes at least} as a the beauty and bounteousness of Life as is.

In due course, such rediscovery and reexperience sparks a conversion in one’s outlook and mode of operation. Because one then experientially knows disappointment and dissatisfaction to be idealization-associated blights, one becomes more wary of and less likely to be lured by fantasy-based temptations and, if and when one gets ‘snared’ by them, more quickly frees oneself from such entanglement by reestablishing wholesome relationship with what is in truth. Gradually, more and more often, and each time more fully, recognizing the bounteousness of experience and ongoing opportunity for discovery, development and joyful expression afforded by Life as It is to be a phenomenal boon, one proceeds with an attitude of greater and greater appreciation and consequently love. As the quest for ‘more’ desire-satisfaction then becomes superfluous, one increasingly enjoys and, so, more and more ‘naturally’ acts to enhance developments in Life’s garden, whatever one’s situation and whoever one may be with. Such progression ‘naturally’ culminates in one’s actualizing totally positive modality and flourishing in complete psychospiritual communion with Life processes one is part and parcel of, as all one’s giving and receiving becomes geared to this.
The 'Devil' spoken of here then no longer exists - in your 'world', that is! :D

[EnlightenedPursuits]

iamthat's first answer is a good and concise one that I agree with, but to push it and your question further:

It is good to study the source of your dislike of particular people; where's it coming from and why, but to be straightforward, no you do not have to like someone.

"No" in the sense that you as a human being are not compelled to do any one thing, but you have the freedom to make choices; and distancing yourself from someone that could do you harm is indeed the right choice for your sake.

The fact that you are also brutally honest is commendable and bodes well for your practice, wherever it make take you!

[Alice_1]

There is one way: Every day, mentally wish everyone happiness.:hug3:

[davidsun]

There is one way: Every day, mentally wish everyone happiness.:hug3:


High Five, Alice - Whenever I 'wish' along these lines (usually every day), I wish everyone's hearts-n-eyes are opened to Love-n-Truth (pertaining to Life/Spirit/God/Whatever-IT-be-called)
:smile:

[Alice_1]

Help and love your neighbor, no matter what.

[davidsun]

Help and love your neighbor, no matter what.
Yes, yes, yes!