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Iamit
21-02-2018, 11:19 AM
We know from our own experience what mind does. It imagines and can bring (through movement of organisms) what it imagines into the appearance of solidity, and all other forms of manifestation.

Our own experience, for example is when we imagine a light bulb or the wheel and hey presto there they appear to be, so why not a universal mind imagining and manifesting the appearance of a tree or mouse, imbuing each with its mind interacting with all other minds resulting in what appears?

Mind manifests all in this way so MIND=ONENESS so just what are we trying to subdue when we believe we have to attempt to subdue mind?

An impossible task. Good luck with it!

slash112
21-02-2018, 05:03 PM
I agree.

Example, we hear all over the place, the term "Ego Death". But what is Ego? It is "conscious mind". Left-brain makes up most of the conscious mind. The rest being unconscious/subconscious mind. Are they saying we're best off just shutting down half our brain? No... at least, they should not.

I understand that Ego death isn't actually the removal of Ego. It's the taming of it, and putting it in its place. We are so much more than conscious mind.
It's also the removal of "fabrications" which Ego creates.

Subduing the mind is indeed an impossible task. But attempting to do so does actually help with the removal of fabrications. It even helps discover some truths.

But I prefer to see the whole thing as "taming the mind". It should not be ignored, it should be tended to.

Eelco
21-02-2018, 05:12 PM
Ego is an idea that forms every moment based on past memories. Seeing it for what it is. (a non existent useful idea) one can broaden his or her perspective. With a broadened perspective the ego isn't identified with so closely and thus dies..

There's nothing to subdue, because there was nothing there in the first place..

With Love
Eelco

Iamit
21-02-2018, 11:18 PM
I agree.

Example, we hear all over the place, the term "Ego Death". But what is Ego? It is "conscious mind". Left-brain makes up most of the conscious mind. The rest being unconscious/subconscious mind. Are they saying we're best off just shutting down half our brain? No... at least, they should not.

I understand that Ego death isn't actually the removal of Ego. It's the taming of it, and putting it in its place. We are so much more than conscious mind.
It's also the removal of "fabrications" which Ego creates.

Subduing the mind is indeed an impossible task. But attempting to do so does actually help with the removal of fabrications. It even helps discover some truths.

But I prefer to see the whole thing as "taming the mind". It should not be ignored, it should be tended to.

There are various definitions of ego. For me it is the made up character designed and constructed by mind in response to, and to protect us from, rejection. Mental hospitals are full of people whose ego has disintegrated. We undermine it at our peril.

Once it is seen for what it is, there is no longer any need to dismantle it. As with mind, it can just be left to do its job. Neither are in any way obstacles to ending the feeling of disconnection for both are simply Oneness manifesting as those protections for us. Ironically it is only when mind is persuaded by certain arguments that it is an enemy, that it appears to turn on itself as an enemy. A most dangerous state of affairs.

slash112
22-02-2018, 12:52 AM
You are both right, actually.

I've been spending a fair amount of time speaking about spirituality in terms of psychology, so I've been immersed in the psychology definition of Ego, recently.

Thank you both for reminding me about this definition. It was the only definition I recognized as true for like a year. It's important for me to distinguish between the two definitions. I'm a bridge-builder (I keep using this term, but it's true). In the end I want all these different sectors to be understood by each other.

Mental hospitals are full of people whose ego has disintegrated.
Lol this happened to me.
There was a few things that happened in my "episode", but one thing was my ego was (pretty much?) gone. The police found it extremely difficult to communicate with me because of that, when they found me sitting on a roundabout talking rubbish and waving to everyone that passed in cars. Took me to the hospital :P

It took two weeks of reforming my ego before I got released. But most of it felt like an act. It was super weird, to say the least.

Before then, I fought my ego. I now dance with my ego. I have a made up character that wants to go through life spreading love and wisdom.

Iamit
22-02-2018, 01:17 AM
Ego is an idea that forms every moment based on past memories. Seeing it for what it is. (a non existent useful idea) one can broaden his or her perspective. With a broadened perspective the ego isn't identified with so closely and thus dies..

There's nothing to subdue, because there was nothing there in the first place..

With Love
Eelco

There is nothing anywhere! All we are dealing with here, from a nondual perspective, is the very convincing appearance of difference where there is no difference whatsoever. Ego is no more or less here than anything else.

Within that appearance the idea of nonduality can be encountered which can end the feeling of disconnection subject to a matching of frequencies/vibrations between that idea and the mind. The mind has the capability to resonate with that idea if there is that match.

Eelco
22-02-2018, 01:30 AM
True, but if I were to stick a fork in your upper thigh during dinner.
I wonder if you will feel nothing.. So there may be some nuances to be taken into consideration. At least so long as we seem to be here....

With Love
Eelco

Iamit
22-02-2018, 01:49 AM
True, but if I were to stick a fork in your upper thigh during dinner.
I wonder if you will feel nothing.. So there may be some nuances to be taken into consideration. At least so long as we seem to be here....

With Love
Eelco

There is no question that the manifestation feels as though it is here. Its like a hologram operating on all the senses not just vision which our minds are conditioned to believe. Conditioning can apparently be reversed with special training. Unfortunately mine has not been completed yet so sticking a fork in me would be painful:)

The point being made is that no one aspect of the manifestion is more or less here than any other. So to speak of Ego as though its more or less here than any other aspect is misleading. Either way its not an obstacle to ending the feeling of disconnection for it is already Oneness manifest so can just be left to get on with its job of protecting us from rejection. Its why we present different character aspects in varying situations depending on how we percieve whats going on, and threat levels. A helpful tool to have which we discard at our peril.

Eelco
22-02-2018, 02:06 AM
I agree..That it is no obstacle.
And the pain from a fork like any phenomenon arises, stays a while and passes.

Not sure about the oneness though.
One man's Oneness is another mans Nothingness.

The fact that the eye can not see itself does not convince me that it must be there when I become conscious of seeing.

Likewise I can experience phenomenon arising and passing.. I haven't found an underlying Oneness that experiences it all (Yet)

With Love
Eelco

Iamit
22-02-2018, 02:18 AM
I agree..That it is no obstacle.
And the pain from a fork like any phenomenon arises, stays a while and passes.

Not sure about the oneness though.
One man's Oneness is another mans Nothingness.

The fact that the eye can not see itself does not convince me that it must be there when I become conscious of seeing.

Likewise I can experience phenomenon arising and passing.. I haven't found an underlying Oneness that experiences it all (Yet)

With Love
Eelco

When I use the term it is not meant ti indicate some sort of entity but simply that despite the appearance of difference, All is One. Oneness is an idea, its not presented as a truth for which we have evidence (although Quantum Physics may argue with that) because there may always be something hidden that comes to light which contradicts our evidence.

Nevertheless it may resonate to end the feeling of disconnection if frequencies match. From a nondual perspective it should also be mentioned that it must already be Oneness manifesting as feeling disconnected so that feeling itself is not disconnected :)

iamthat
24-02-2018, 08:13 AM
MIND=ONENESS

Hmmm.

MIND=MOVEMENT.

ONENESS=STILLNESS.

When you realise Oneness you will know the difference.

Peace.

Iamit
24-02-2018, 11:22 AM
Hmmm.

MIND=MOVEMENT.

ONENESS=STILLNESS.

When you realise Oneness you will know the difference.

Peace.

Not relevant. Oneness is already all there is including not realizing Oneness:) Realizing Oneness will not make you any more Oneness than you are already:)

Moondance
24-02-2018, 12:28 PM
Not relevant. Oneness is already all there is including not realizing Oneness:) Realizing Oneness will not make you any more Oneness than you are already:)

Only ‘not relevant’ if you are content with being a seeker.

There is a distinction that is often missed in current nonduality circles - it’s the difference between the ontological (for want of a word) and the psychological or conscious.

Although Oneness is always ontologically the case (realisation or no realisation), in order for seeking to end the conscious (or psychological) realisation of Oneness is required.

Moondance
24-02-2018, 02:02 PM
Hmmm.

MIND=MOVEMENT.

ONENESS=STILLNESS.

When you realise Oneness you will know the difference.

Peace.

I wouldn't equate Oneness with stillness anymore than movement. It's stillness. It's movement. It's both stillness and movement. It's neither stillness nor movement. It's right here, NOW in the chaos... and the calm - there’s nothing else.

iamthat
24-02-2018, 08:23 PM
I wouldn't equate Oneness with stillness anymore than movement. It's stillness. It's movement. It's both stillness and movement. It's neither stillness nor movement. It's right here, NOW in the chaos... and the calm - there’s nothing else.

Oneness, being everywhere, never changes, never moves. Thus it is still. Within the stillness there is movement and within the movement there is stillness.

Or we could substitute form for movement and formlessness for stillness. So within form there is formlessness and within formlessness there is form.

As you say, it is all here right now.

Peace.

iamthat
24-02-2018, 08:25 PM
Not relevant. Oneness is already all there is including not realizing Oneness:) Realizing Oneness will not make you any more Oneness than you are already:)

As I said, when you realise Oneness you will understand the difference.

Peace.

Iamit
24-02-2018, 09:15 PM
Only ‘not relevant’ if you are content with being a seeker.

There is a distinction that is often missed in current nonduality circles - it’s the difference between the ontological (for want of a word) and the psychological or conscious.

Although Oneness is always ontologically the case (realisation or no realisation), in order for seeking to end the conscious (or psychological) realisation of Oneness is required.

Hi Moondance,

Here we go again:)

Yes resonance with All is One has to occur to end the search (and maybe some consolidation).

What is the most helpful response to seekers to bring that about? To be clear that seekers are already in the state they seek (The Direct Approach) including not realizing, may work. That at least avoids placing further burdens and places the seeker in the position most likely to bring about a fast resonance. We know it works for some so worth a try:)

If they are a character for which the direct approach does not work, there are paths and practises they can explore and see if that works.

Iamit
24-02-2018, 09:21 PM
As I said, when you realise Oneness you will understand the difference.

Peace.


You have no idea who I am. We are done, Be well and good luck.

sentient
24-02-2018, 11:18 PM
Sketching …..

At one point (walking in the "Enchanted Forest") it seemed as if I didn’t exist, but everything else (the Universe) did.
Not being “one” or “two” – but being a zero point.

The Energy of Stillness and Movement in Synchronicity shapes the zero point into a dancer of that Synchronicity.
“Who” the dancer is – well, that is the spooky part.

Love this quote by T.S. Eliot:
I said to my soul, be still and wait without hope, for hope would be hope for the wrong thing; wait without love, for love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith, but the faith and the love are all in the waiting. Wait without thought, for you are not ready for thought: So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing.


*

Iamit
25-02-2018, 03:11 AM
Sketching …..

At one point (walking in the "Enchanted Forest") it seemed as if I didn’t exist, but everything else (the Universe) did.
Not being “one” or “two” – but being a zero point.

The Energy of Stillness and Movement in Synchronicity shapes the zero point into a dancer of that Synchronicity.
“Who” the dancer is – well, that is the spooky part.

Love this quote by T.S. Eliot:


*

Did that experience end the search?

Moondance
25-02-2018, 10:42 AM
Oneness, being everywhere, never changes, never moves. Thus it is still. Within the stillness there is movement and within the movement there is stillness.

Or we could substitute form for movement and formlessness for stillness. So within form there is formlessness and within formlessness there is form.

As you say, it is all here right now.

Peace.

Yes, we could rationalise that no matter how Reality appears it is always Reality - Reality is the only constant. But the nature of Reality is ceaseless change and flux.

Moondance
25-02-2018, 10:50 AM
Hi Moondance,

Here we go again:)

Yes resonance with All is One has to occur to end the search (and maybe some consolidation).

What is the most helpful response to seekers to bring that about? To be clear that seekers are already in the state they seek (The Direct Approach) including not realizing, may work. That at least avoids placing further burdens and places the seeker in the position most likely to bring about a fast resonance. We know it works for some so worth a try:)

If they are a character for which the direct approach does not work, there are paths and practises they can explore and see if that works.

I hear what you are saying and don’t disagree. The insight that they are ‘already in the state they seek’, realisation or no realisation is 100% valid. But that very insight IS the dawning of realisation.

So ontologically speaking, the seeker is 'already in the state they seek'. Yet psychologically this needs to be recognised/realised. Paradoxically, by pointing out the ontological situation, the conscious/psychological realisation may dawn.

iamthat
25-02-2018, 06:44 PM
You have no idea who I am. We are done, Be well and good luck.

Indeed, I have no idea who you are. I can only go by the words you post, which strongly suggest that your knowledge of Oneness is based only on intellectual understanding, which is itself limited.

Peace.

Iamit
25-02-2018, 07:15 PM
Indeed, I have no idea who you are. I can only go by the words you post, which strongly suggest that your knowledge of Oneness is based only on intellectual understanding, which is itself limited.

Peace.

The ideas expressed in the words stand by themselves and either resonate or not. To make assumptions about the quality of the exxperience of those expressing them when one has no idea who those persons are, and cannot possibly know that, ends reasonable discussion.

One could ask the other for a description of their experience if there was any genuine interest in thet, rather than speculate negatively about it which has more to do with some aggresive contest about points of view. No interest in that so hence we are done.

Iamit
25-02-2018, 07:29 PM
I hear what you are saying and don’t disagree. The insight that they are ‘already in the state they seek’, realisation or no realisation is 100% valid. But that very insight IS the dawning of realisation.

So ontologically speaking, the seeker is 'already in the state they seek'. Yet psychologically this needs to be recognised/realised. Paradoxically, by pointing out the ontological situation, the conscious/psychological realisation may dawn.

Absolutely, yes.

sentient
25-02-2018, 07:31 PM
Did that experience end the search?
The situation may have started as ‘the seeker seeking the sought’, but then - at one point the whole thing turned upside down and inside out and now - that which was sought had found the seeker.

*

Iamit
25-02-2018, 07:39 PM
The situation may have started as ‘the seeker seeking the sought’, but then - at one point the whole thing turned upside down and inside out and now - that which was sought had found the seeker.

*

Pleased to hear that and long may it continue. In my experience it does.

sentient
26-02-2018, 08:15 PM
Then again as they say in some Buddhist teachings – intellectual understanding is not enough, one needs an experience of those concepts for the realization of them to dawn.
But realization is not enough – one needs to put the insights gained through realizations into practice for them to become the wisdom one then embodies.

*

Iamit
27-02-2018, 01:39 AM
Then again as they say in some Buddhist teachings – intellectual understanding is not enough, one needs an experience of those concepts for the realization of them to dawn.
But realization is not enough – one needs to put the insights gained through realizations into practice for them to become the wisdom one then embodies.

*



That may work for Buddhists who define what is sought in that way. Characters vary and one size does not fit all.

Seekers define what is sought differently, the achievement of which is enough for each. For some the end of feeling disconnected is profound, all behaviour is Oneness manifest, so no one act is more or less Oneness than any other and therefore no requirement to put anything into practise, Whatever manifests is regarded as completely Oneness, so for some there are, never have been, and never will be any separate persons who have done anything and never will, because all is Oneness happening by and to 'itself'.

Shivani Devi
28-02-2018, 02:52 AM
The notion that "mind is Oneness", or "I am Oneness" or 'Everything is Oneness" is still a notion - a concept OF the mind which then becomes limited BY the mind through cognitive dissonance.

Iamit
28-02-2018, 10:11 AM
The notion that "mind is Oneness", or "I am Oneness" or 'Everything is Oneness" is still a notion - a concept OF the mind which then becomes limited BY the mind through cognitive dissonance.

Hi Shivani,

Yes but in addition, it feels like the mind also has the capability to resonant and apply any solution it finds that it regards will work to end the discomfort felt by the organism it serves, in this case feeling disconnected. It would not be surprising if the mind had that capacity, after all it is mind conducting the search and considering directly any possible solutions.

I'm suggesting that resonance is a vibration based on frequency match and not limited in the way you suggest, a more mysterious and spooky happening:)

Shivani Devi
28-02-2018, 10:19 AM
Hi Shivani,

Yes but in addition, it feels like the mind also has the capability to resonant and apply any solution it finds that it regards will work to end the discomfort felt by the organism it serves, in this case feeling disconnected. It would not be surprising if the mind had that capacity, after all it is mind conducting the search and considering directly any possible solutions.

I'm suggesting that resonance is a vibration based on frequency match and not limited in the way you suggest, a more mysterious and spooky happening:)Ah... sort of like Quantum Entanglement which is 'spooky happenings at a distance'. :biggrin: