How is being a vegetarian different from eating the meat of an animal?

[StarmanX7]

As the title says, "How is being a vegetarian different from eating the meat of an animal?"

I know it's a bit of a silly question but obviously plants are alive too, they grow, bloom, flourish and eventually die in their own cycle of life. If you face them away from light they turn and move their leaves like solar panels towards the light. When it gets dark they close themselves up. Don't plant's have their own life force too? Even if it's different from our own, what makes it easier to consume them?

I have nothing against vegetarians or those to eat meat (I enjoy both :D and I'm thankful to both), just a curious question?

[Lovely]

Well plants don't feel pain. So when you cut it it doesn't feel
anything. When you cut the limb from an animal it will scream in pain.
Not to mention meat eaters eat plants as well so if it's bad to
eat plants they are just as bad as us. If a meat eater stopped eating meat
they would be okay because they can still eat plants. If a vegetarian
stopped eating plants they would die because there is no
alternative. So we don't have a choice we need plants to live.

And about the difference question It
depends what you mean by different.
Do you mean different health wise
or different as a person?

Health wise on average they live 9 years longer.
As a person, well that depends on the individual.
Though there was a study showing vegetarians/vegans
are more empathic towards animals.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2877098/


(http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .ncbi.nlm.nih.gov%252Fpmc%252Farticles%252FPMC2877 098%252F)

[Merlin6]

Good question StarmanX7,

Personnally I don't see any difference.

I believe the natural sustenance for the soul and even for the physical body used to be to draw energy from the One Source of the universe.

It was only when souls began to physically manifest in the earth plane and feed upon their environment, that they became unable to draw from the universe and became dependant upon the physical nourishment.

There have been a couple of instances in past years where people have claimed to have regained the ability to not eat (from the physical) and still exist. Science is quick to quash this idea and say that "they must be sneaking food" or somesuch.

Plants do indeed feel pain. Many experiments with various plants hooked up to lie detectors have proven over and over that if you stand next to a plant with a knife in your hand, and project to the plant with your thoughts that you are going to cut off a branch or a leaf or somesuch, the plant will register a strong reaction to what you are thinking.

The same plant will respond in a positive way if you talk to them in soothing tones and assure the plant with your thoughts that you will not harm it and that it is well loved.

The buddhist view is that animals have their own level of conciousness, and that it is wrong to kill them for food, and that we as humans should work to overcome our dependency on such food sources. They believe that once we become aware of the suffering and injustice of what we do to animals, but continue to do it anyway, we incur karma. Bit of a worry that.

Personally, I'm an omnivore, and I think a bit of oregano on a pepperoni pizza would go down rather well at the moment.

Regards
Merlin6

[Chrysaetos]

Plants don't have a nervous system and brains.
According to some dubious studies they ''respond'', which anyway does not prove they have ''feelings'' - all it ''proves'' is that they respond..

There are better argument to eat meat: simple, we have an omnivore body.

My motto is; eat what you feel comfortable with, and don't claim all living beings are at the same 'ladder' for you, for they are clearly not.

Some vegs like to say all living beings are equal and they don't discriminate, which is impossible as they do make choices.

Some meaters also say there is no difference between living beings. To them I say,
who are you going to save when you had to choose between a dog or your garden grass? Or your family or a carrot?

We all discriminate, so eh get real.. :)

[Gem]

Recently tribes stopped eating people and that's good enough for me.

[s0ultraveller]

You (mind) become what you eat. The meat is full of Tamo guna (complete darkness and ignorance) which will stop us from growing Spiritually and cannot become self aware.

[Chrysaetos]

You (mind) become what you eat. The meat is full of Tamo guna (complete darkness and ignorance) which will stop us from growing Spiritually and cannot become self aware.So spiritual growth has only existed for let's say the last 10.000+ years.. as agriculture is fairly new..

The Indian dogma is a cultural belief made by tropical agriculturalists.. hardly universal.
That's often the gist, local beliefs and personal ethics are presented as universal morals..

[clovelly]

Why cause unnecessary pain & trauma since it is really only to satisfy your taste buds?

[s0ultraveller]

So spiritual growth has only existed for let's say the last 10.000+ years.. as agriculture is fairly new..

The Indian dogma is a cultural belief made by tropical agriculturalists.. hardly universal.
That's often the gist, local beliefs and personal ethics are presented as universal morals..

You cannot kill and eat animals and also sit like Buddha and work on peace :) it is very contrasting...

[s0ultraveller]

There is no love or one is in a very low spiritual level while continuously eating meat.

[SunMist]

I have been omnivore, lacto-ovo vegetarian and vegan for different time periods so I can compare in my own experience. Being vegan was absolutely the cleanest spiritually - hands down, no question, my sensitivity to energy sky rocketed and I could meditate easily and more deeply. Vegetarian similar but less so. Eating meat for me weighs down my energy and if I eat meat (or dairy or eggs) that came from factory farming where the animal suffered in life as well as death I can absolutely feel the difference. It is worth the money to buy free-range eggs/meat if you can because the energies contained in our modern factory farmed animals' meat is awful, because their lives are horrible. It is truly shocking how much needless suffering is inflicted on these animals just for greater profit.

So even outside of the moral question of whether one should eat meat at all, those are the effects I feel. Many years ago I spontaneously stopped eating beef and I suspect it was because of these effects. I guess if you wanted to eat in the highest form possible with injury to none fruits and nuts & seeds would be the way to go. No plant has to die for those but I'm not sure how healthy it would be for the body.

[Chrysaetos]

What some people are saying is basically: ''The whole world is ignorant, except India..''

That's an ethnocentric view.
And even in that place people were hunters for quite a long time..
So again you're saying: ''Only in the last 10.000+ years has spirituality changed it course.'' :D

Killing the cow is considered a bigger sin than killing other animals. And, the domestic cow is a new kid on the block.. =/

Humans have eaten meat for hundreds of thousands of years.. our bodies are omnivore. If 'God' wanted us to be a herbivore we would've been one!

Again it's cultural morals that are presented as universal fact.

It comes down to ethics, and ethics are subjective! :wink:

[Sangress]

Apparently there have been tests conducted that show that plants experience awareness in very basic and powerful forms (knowing when danger is near, reacting to damage, thriving when they know there is less or no threat of danger.)

From what I remembered this test was conducted with sensory equipment while a person who had previously harmed the plant some time before actually entered the same room it was in. Interestingly the sensory device went berserk when the threatening individual was in the room...and when the plant was confronted with another person who had stroked its leaves and greeted it previously, it responded in a completely different way.

Personally, I don't put much stock to those kinds of studies...though with my own "conversations" with plants I've gone by personal experience to say, yeh, they have intelligence of a different variety to animals or a rock...but that doesn't make it any less important (to me.)

I honestly see no difference really since its all living and aware.

I believe everything should be given the same amount of respect and reverence regardless of whether it be plant, animal or mineral...etc.

And since I'm all in with equality and nature, I respect a predators natural place in the world and the prey as well, and just let it be.

Essentially what I'm saying is that I don't give certain animals...etc special privileges or consider them to be superior to any other, so I'll eat what is available and keep up the natural cycle as it has been for a very long time regardless of any moralistic debates...etc.

My opinion is probably a little bit biased or something, considering I eat everything. :P

[Emmalevine]

I read somewhere that people who believe there is no difference between eating animal flesh and eating a plant should go to a slaughter house to watch animals being killed and then see how they feel.

I'm willing to bet that 99% of people who had thought there was no difference would radically change their views. It's hardly the same as picking a tomato off the vine and eating it.

[tragblack]

Apparently there have been tests conducted that show that plants experience awareness in very basic and powerful forms (knowing when danger is near, reacting to damage, thriving when they know there is less or no threat of danger.)

From what I remembered this test was conducted with sensory equipment while a person who had previously harmed the plant some time before actually entered the same room it was in. Interestingly the sensory device went berserk when the threatening individual was in the room...and when the plant was confronted with another person who had stroked its leaves and greeted it previously, it responded in a completely different way.

Personally, I don't put much stock to those kinds of studies...though with my own "conversations" with plants I've gone by personal experience to say, yeh, they have intelligence of a different variety to animals or a rock...but that doesn't make it any less important (to me.)

I honestly see no difference really since its all living and aware.

I believe everything should be given the same amount of respect and reverence regardless of whether it be plant, animal or mineral...etc.

And since I'm all in with equality and nature, I respect a predators natural place in the world and the prey as well, and just let it be.

Essentially what I'm saying is that I don't give certain animals...etc special privileges or consider them to be superior to any other, so I'll eat what is available and keep up the natural cycle as it has been for a very long time regardless of any moralistic debates...etc.

My opinion is probably a little bit biased or something, considering I eat everything. :P

This is always the example I use, and these are more or less my thoughts on the matter.

[DebbyM]

If 'God' wanted us to be a herbivore we would've been one!


[/B]

Perhaps that is why 'He' created plants without a brain and a nervous system to carry pain signals.

[Chrysaetos]

Perhaps that is why 'He' created plants without a brain and a nervous system to carry pain signals.I don't believe in creationism, I was making the point as it's undoubtedly needed on a spiritual forum. ;)

[DebbyM]

I don't believe in creationism, I was making the point as it's undoubtedly needed on a spiritual forum. ;)

So you believe in the 'miracle' of evolution eh? I guess everyone is guilty of "leaps of faith".

[Rah nam]

the beauty on this system, this reality is, we can move forward when we are ready. it is up to every individual, and yes we are individuals as long we are in this reality, to choose the next step.

There is more to it, but for the individual down her, this is how it works.

[Chrysaetos]

So you believe in the 'miracle' of evolution eh? I guess everyone is guilty of "leaps of faith".It isn't an opponent of creationism. It's about how life changes, not how it came into being.

And our omnivore nature is part of it. It even allows us to choose from various diets, so veg people should honour our ancestry. :D

[Haoma]

It's not even a question of morals for me anymore. My body said stop eating that, so I did. I feel an incredible difference and refuse to eat meat ever again to the point that my body will completely reject it if I do. It was the easiest thing I've ever had to do. I'm so happy I did and I hope others will too. It's simple, see ;)

[DebbyM]

I believe that there is a path that we all take. And like a child who passes certain milestones in their development, there are milestones in our evolution. Personally, I think that one of those milestones is how we relate to the rest of the natural world, how we treat the earth, how we treat the people around us, how we treat the animals.

I think too, that humanity is poised to make a choice as to how the world will be in the future. Our awareness of the suffering of others is widening and that is why we're finally beginning to realize that children shouldn't be used and abused, why we've begun to realize once again that women deserve respect and safety, why we finally have concerns over the disappearing rainforests, the state of the oceans, the rights of gay people to have lives.....Even what is occuring in the Middle East where those who've been beaten down for centuries are standing up and say "it's not fair and no more!" is a symptom of these changes. That there are groups like Wikileaks and Anonymous, groups who are making sure 'that the people know (what sneaky **** the rulers are engaged in), are a signpost. I like to think that signpost points us to a world where there is a more level playing field because the corruption will not be hidden. Of course, there will be mistakes and failures along the way and it will take a long time, but I think we've finally begun to change course. And of course, to get back to the point of this thread, the fact that there are people out there who refer to themselves as animal welfarists proves that point. Once upon a time, nobody cared, but now even the consumer is starting to look for improvement in the treatment of these poor creatures.

The past no longer exists, it is a memory and we have today, now and nothing more. Honouring tradition might be a reason for having an annual parade or an extra day off, but we have only this moment to define who we are and it sets the tone for how our tomorrows may be. Making choices based on holding to old tradition simply means little growth, slow evolution of our humanity. My opinion.

[Kiki04]

You cannot kill and eat animals and also sit like Buddha and work on peace :) it is very contrasting...


True. :/
I've read that animals came here with the purpose of providing nourishment for us human beings. What do you think about that?

[Chrysaetos]

True. :/ I've read that animals came here with the purpose of providing nourishment for us human beings. What do you think about that?It's anthropocentric thinking. It is prevalent everywhere thanks to religion.

Nothing came here with a purpose to provide nourishment. There are just natural explanations..

[athribiristan]

Well plants don't feel pain.

Read The Secret Life of Plants and you will change your mind about that.

[mahakali]

Why cause unnecessary pain & trauma since it is really only to satisfy your taste buds?i want to see someone argue this point.

ever sense i became veg i am so much healthier. i can think clearer, i used to have lightheaded spells and a bad memory before veg. i don't bruise as easily, i have much better digestion, more energy, the list goes on.

[Chrysaetos]

i want to see someone argue this point.
ever sense i became veg i am so much healthier. i can think clearer, i used to have lightheaded spells and a bad memory before veg. i don't bruise as easily, i have much better digestion, more energy, the list goes on.I'm willing to argue there.

Taste is important. Although I wouldn't use it as a main argument to eat meat. It doesn't matter whether you are a meater, vegetarian, or vegan. We all want food that has a good taste. Some choose tasty vegetarian meals, others may pick meat.

I've been meater, vegetarian, and everything in between. I've been carefully noticing any changes physically and mentally. I must say I have a sharper mind and more energy when I add some meat (fish) to my diet. But too much meat is not good. The trick is to find a middle way there. It isn't about pure meaters and pure vegs.

[mahakali]

so satisfying taste buds is worth causing an animal trauma and pain. i feel like being empathic probably has something to do with me being veg. well at least you cut back, thats almost as good as being veg, well half as good and thats def something. two people who eat half as much meat equals 1 vegetarian :)

[Chrysaetos]

so satisfying taste buds is worth causing an animal trauma and pain.How do you know every animal has trauma and pain before dying? ;p i feel like being empathic probably has something to do with me being veg. well at least you cut back, thats almost as good as being veg, well half as good and thats def something. two people who eat half as much meat equals 1 vegetarian :)Well no matter what diet we follow, animals were killed in the process. If people consume tropical fruits and vegetables they cause more damage to environment and animals then if they would eat a fish from their local lake, or a chicken from a local farmer.

[NightSpirit]

Its beginning to sound as though vegans feel they are needing to always justify their eating choices judging by these many vegan threads popping up....just like religious zealots.

I don't understand why vegans carry this 'picked-on' stigma but to me, can we all just get over it?

Plants..animals...feelings...I love animals the same as others do, but i don't come on righteous about what I choose to eat.

Thanks

[Rah nam]

There seams to be an equal amount of zealousness and defensive talk an all sides.
In my view, what ever you eat is fine. If you kill and animal this is between the animal and you. If someone squashes a beetle while picking an apple, this is between the picker and the beetle, and has nothing to do with me, eating the apple.

[mahakali]

i really actually dont want animals to suffor, it has nothing to do with defending myself. i feel that if people would see that there spirit is divine and eating it is a bit harsh i think they would be veg too. it makes me ill to think about consuming something with a face, with a personality with a soul. i dont understand how others cant see how its so horrible. maybe if you tried to see? when someone justifies something its bc they feel wrong for doing something, i find that non veg trying to justify killing is bc of there subconscious guilt, what reason do i have to justify? i dont feel bad for caring about animals. that really seems silly to me. ive converted someone to veg and made others cut back and it really makes me feel good to know that i saved some, really its not selfish at all lol. i used to say the same things as you, i used to eat it and love it! omg now i do not miss it at all!

i understand that its karma and theres nothing wrong with it, were human, im just aiming for higher than human.

[Chrysaetos]

i really actually dont want animals to suffor, it has nothing to do with defending myself. i feel that if people would see that there spirit is divine and eating it is a bit harsh i think they would be veg too. it makes me ill to think about consuming something with a face, with a personality with a soul. i dont understand how others cant see how its so horrible. I can follow the last bit, but if it's about the face and personality.. would you eat shrimp or spiders? They aren't really like us.

Just because they're all ''animals'' doesn't mean they are all the same. And if we consume veggies we kill insects too,
so in the end it's a matter of preference.. which species do you want to be killed and which not.

[Time]

Most of what your asking, is on this thread......

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13162

[orli_the_owl]

"How is being a vegetarian different from eating the meat of an animal"
it's an interesting question,and my answer would be; its not but we've got to eat something, very fewof us have enough alturism to strave for the rights of plants!

most of the arguments here are about how to eat animals we kill them and they feel pain and that plants dont feel pain but howdo we know that?
They dont have a nerous system like ours, that we do know, and so it has been concluded that they dont feel pain. It may be that they have a different system that we are yet to understand, in which case there is no difference what so ever as far as the herbivore/ omnivore argument goes.

It is true however that it takes a lot less energy and space to produce plant food than animal ones and with the growing human population on the planet vegitarianism makes much more economical sense. AND replacement protein products (eg Quorn) can be grown in any environment, like the deserts where nothing else can survive, on pretty much anything (including waste materials) as long as there is a big vat/fermenter thing. which if you think about it is some awesome recycling and a possible cure for world hunger AND poverty. (give them the startup costs, they porduce food and any left over is an exportable produce giving a source of income)

but that's just my veiw. I am a vegitarian but it does cross my mind occasionally that if we were in the wild, a hungry animal wouldnt hesitsate to hunt and eat me while a plant would just wait arround to get eaten. which in a way makes me a terrible person, as i am am hunting that which cannot defend it'self and would not do the same if the situation was reversed :-S
ive been a veggie for 5 years, but maybe i should just go get a bigmac...?
on second thoughts...maybe not.

[Chrysaetos]

most of the arguments here are about how to eat animals we kill them and they feel pain and that plants dont feel pain but howdo we know that?They dont have a nerous system like ours, that we do know, and so it has been concluded that they dont feel pain. We can only go with what we know for sure. Maybe I am your Lord in another dimension.. but I can't prove it. But you prove to me I'm not your Lord.. lol.:Dbut that's just my veiw. I am a vegitarian but it does cross my mind occasionally that if we were in the wild, a hungry animal wouldnt hesitsate to hunt and eat me while a plant would just wait arround to get eaten. which in a way makes me a terrible person, as i am am hunting that which cannot defend it'self and would not do the same if the situation was reversed :-SWhy feel bad about that? In the wild you have to be an opportunist.. This is natural.:)ive been a veggie for 5 years, but maybe i should just go get a bigmac...? on second thoughts...maybe not.No you shouldn't eat that ****! :smile:

[OceanWaves19161]

Why cause unnecessary pain & trauma since it is really only to satisfy your taste buds?

Here's an interesting point. We cause pain and trauma to people every day...especially to those who are smaller or weaker than us but when you remove the judgement from it it's not a bad thing. If a cow dies because someone eats it, God knows that experience is important for both the cow's evolution and the person eating it's evolution for whatever reason. When there comes a time when the world is light enough vibrationally to be able to operate functionally while eating lighter foods then I'm sure alot of people will switch over. For now though the world's vibration just isn't there. All you need to worry about it doing what's right for you so if eating meats right for you then go for it but if it's not eat what is Everyone needs different things for their soul paths and theres nothing wrong with that. You just need to do what's in your highest good.

P.s The reason why vegetarians/vegan get a bad wrap is for the following

1) A large number of vegetarians/vegans are quite ungrounded and not very practical when it comes to living in the western world.
2) Many vegetarians/vegans don't eat properly. Vegans in particular often look sick, have low energy etc.
3) Many people hate vegatarians and vegans trying to convert them into eating something that isn't right for them.

* Note: I don't side with either vegetarians or meat eaters

[Rah nam]

P.s The reason why vegetarians/vegan get a bad wrap is for the following

1) A large number of vegetarians/vegans are quite ungrounded and not very practical when it comes to living in the western world.
2) Many vegetarians/vegans don't eat properly. Vegans in particular often look sick, have low energy etc.
3) Many people hate vegetarians and vegans trying to convert them into eating something that isn't right for them.
About 40 years ago I would have said, you are correct.
There is enough information around now, to get it "right", and of cause we point out the one who does not get it, to make our case on. A little like the smokers who claim, they heard of someone who lived to 90 wile smoking, the carnivores claim, they saw a vegetarian who looks sickly.
I don't claim to be vegetarian, I just don;t eat any meat or flesh, or anything that comes from a dead animal. I work physical all day, play my sport, and have more energy then most carnivores of my age.

add: anyone who hates no matter what, has enough problems, without worrying about vegetarians.

[NightSpirit]

I am by no means defending the slaughtering of animals. What i can't get a grasp on here is.....
1. Experiments have shown that plants respond to music. I'm not saying they have a soul, personality or a brain. It could simply be the vibration of the sounds that stimulate their growth.
2. All through the Bible it talks of animals being sacrificed to god. Did god ever send down a lightening bolt to teach them its wrong to slaughter? lol...sorry but i see the funny side of that.

The thing is vegetarians choose the other path from meat-eaters and i don't judge either as wrong or put the opposite side down for it. The arguments for and against are always the same ole.

We all make choices in this world...whether it be a religious one or to take a bath each day.

If this world were willing to adopt just a smidgeon of a less judgemental approach to anything and each other then we'd be an amazing people.

[Time]

Humans are omnivores. We evolved to eat both, meat and plants in varying amounts. We could eat either or, but science and nutritionalistss around the world, say that its best that we eat BOTH. Humans are only humans due to a few things, and eating and cooking everything in a varied diet is one of them. TIs how we ar emeant to eat ( like all animals we have our specific diets).

These are the 2 main arguments I hear for peole going vegetarian/vegan:

1) - Its cruel to animals
2) - Animals look at you and have feelings and feel pain so its wrong to eat them.

Lets go over both of these:

1) CRUEL TO ANIMALS - Many of the ways we slaughter a nimals is "cruel" to most of our definitions. I would never disagree with this. But things have changed in the last 5 or 10 years. People are being more aware of how their meat gets to the table. And I can say, partial thank you to the vegens for putting pressure on the meat companies for this.

No matter where you go in nature, animals get eaten, or killed. Its a part of life, and theres no way around it. Animals are there to feed other animals. You cant dress it up, or make any excuses. Life is there to feed life. ITs a matter of respect that we all lost for our food. We dont take the time to hunt our meat, to prepare it, skin it, cut it up, store it...... We lost the respect becasue we dotn do the work. Even butcher shops have made things "slack", so has fast food places and recooked meals. Most of us dont even cook anymore.


2) - PLANTS DONT FEEL PAIN?? - No they dont like we do. But there has NEVER been an actual study to say they DO or DONT feel any pain. But lets look at what actualy makes life, life:

-has to eat
-grow
-respond to its enviroment
-defend itslef
-reproduce
-live in a homeostasis with its enviroment.
-a certain awareness of its surrounding area..

Plants do ALL of these things, and then some. Plants even "sweat". They release water vpor from their leaves. They react to their enviroment, which is evident by the fact that they defend themselves from predators, and react to music. They move ( although we dont see it), they can even communicate with other plants. And there is more then enough research to suggest they ract to animals intentions and attitudes towards them ( look up " the secret life of plants).

In terms of vegetarians getting their proper nutritional value..... Most vegetarians dont go see a dr or nutritionalist before switching their food habits. And dont always think of how well it will effect them.

For example, one conversation I had with a vegan, stated " theres enough iron in a tablespoon of molasses every day". Theres also double yoru amount of sugar intake, and upon research, not the required about of iron that we need ( escpecialy women).

Not to mention meat is probabluy the most balanced food nnutritionaly. Can you name a veggie that gives you 25% of your protien intake, as well as your fat intake for the day? As well as ammino acids?

Studies show that many vegans have iron, protien and other mineral deficiantcies, because they fail to go see a dr before and during their diet change. THIS IS VERY DANGEROUS AND CAN CAUSE LONG TERM HEALTH PROBLEMS IF NOT TAKEN CARE OF PROPERLY.

But I can say somethings for fruits and veggies too. They are MEANT to be eaten. That is why they are so colourful and showey. This is the plants adaptation. IT uses its wanting to be eaten , so it can spread its seeds and comlete its task : To ensure its "bloodline" survival.

Being Vegan/vege is a choice, and one that we only recently have been givin. Even 50 years ago if you made the choice to go totaly veganm youd starve to death. ITs a personal choice, and privalige.

Im not saying either or. IF anything im saying eat both becasue thats how we are meant to survive.

IF you choose to be vegan, great! Thats your choice! Just make sure you do it for the right reasons. PErsonaly saying " plants cant feel pain so its ok to eat them" is a sad excuse. IF a person was comatose, and couldnt feel pain would you eat him? What about an animal that couldnt feel pain? The odds are you still wouldnt, because we associate anything that has any sort of traits as us, as "human like", which makes it more difficult to eat it.

Please if you decided to change yoru eating habits go talk to yoru dr, or a nutritionalist. They can see problems that you wont see, and help you around the problems that usualy come with vegetarian diets. Why risk your health just for your feelings on eating meat, and NOT go see a DR? That is playing with fire. And many of the problems assiciated with vegan.vegetarians dont show up instantly. Theyll show up when your 40, when your bones are brittle like sugar glass becasue of a lack of calcium, because you dont drink milk. Itll show up 5 years later, when you have 1% body fat, from your body stugling to ingest proper animal fats.

[JustAm]

I dont eat animal products because i dont feel well when I do. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm a vegan because of moral reasons, it’s just a matter of feeling better. All the vegans I know also tell me that they feel a lot better after making the transition. And for nutrition, go ahead and google protein myth and b12 myth, you might be surprised by what you find.

For those who do decide to eat meat, it’s way better for you to stick with the organic free range meats.

[Lovely]

I dont eat animal products because i dont feel well when I do. That doesn't necessarily mean I'm a vegan because of moral reasons, it’s just a matter of feeling better. All the vegans I know also tell me that they feel a lot better after making the transition. And for nutrition, go ahead and google protein myth and b12 myth, you might be surprised by what you find.

For those who do decide to eat meat, it’s way better for you to stick with the organic free range meats.







Yes, I was surprised when I learned that protein is very plentiful
in a vegan diet. I actually found out I ate 50-80 grams more that I need
when I was on a meat based diet. I got too much protein. Which,
for some reason, people think isn't possible.

[Time]

Thats the funny thing about vegans. THey usualy feel better, but theres no actual scientific proof to say so. Its probably due to the fact taht they are making them selves feel happy, and or the placebo effect - You think it will do something and it did.

And ive looked up those "myths". Mosts of what ive read states the opposite. But then again its hard to find unbiased information both ways ( lots of the sites that said " thers not enough protien in a vegan diet" or " its harder to keep them up", are endoresed by meat suppliers, and, some vegan ones, are endoresces by vegan buisnesses or drs) it goes both ways. You really have to go beyond the internet here. Ive asked my dr, and nutritionalists, and even teachers at school, and vegans. The vegans who routinly see their Drs for vit and mineral levels, are all on protien pills.

The bottom line is that you are happy. If it made you feel better staying away from meat, then why would you eat meat?? LOL. Humans now seem to see it as a morality choice, and very very few actualy realize the health implications of changing your diet, even from just removing red meat from their diets. If you do end up doing damage, you wont see it for decades, not with in afew days or weeks ( some vit deficientcies will show up quick, but are easy to fix of course).


But what about fats? Your body actualy needs a certain about of saturated fat, which is nigh impossible from getting from a stickly veggie diet ( of course its possible to work around it though, other wise all vegans would be very sickly, and that isnt always the case).

I do agree about eating too much protien. Many of us over eat meat, and i wouldnt ever want to try to purposly sugarcoat that. Too much can harden your arteries, leat to heavy excess fat, and heart attacks from cholesterol. But most of us also eat too much salt, and too much saturated fat, and too much sugar, too much carcenages from processed food. 50 - 80 grams of protien is what..... 10% of your daily reccomended amount? What about the 40% of your daily salt intake thats in vegaterian meals per serving? Or the loads of processed preservatives and fillers in your veggie dog? The bleach in your white flour? Theres negatives on both sides and positives. Trying to be sympothetic to animals ( that some wouldnt hesitate to attack you) is impartial in some ways to the fact that we eat to be healthy. Your health is number one. You cant help others, if you yourself is in need of care.

[in progress]

Apparently there have been tests conducted that show that plants experience awareness in very basic and powerful forms (knowing when danger is near, reacting to damage, thriving when they know there is less or no threat of danger.)

From what I remembered this test was conducted with sensory equipment while a person who had previously harmed the plant some time before actually entered the same room it was in. Interestingly the sensory device went berserk when the threatening individual was in the room...and when the plant was confronted with another person who had stroked its leaves and greeted it previously, it responded in a completely different way.

I think you're talking about the work of Cleve Backster.

Plants don't suffer in ways we recognize. That's why we don't feel bad about eating them. Animals express pain and suffering in ways we easily recognize. That's why I let someone else put them into neat little packages for me!

[Lovely]

Thats the funny thing about vegans. THey usualy feel better, but theres no actual scientific proof to say so. Its probably due to the fact taht they are making them selves feel happy, and or the placebo effect - You think it will do something and it did.

And ive looked up those "myths". Mosts of what ive read states the opposite. But then again its hard to find unbiased information both ways ( lots of the sites that said " thers not enough protien in a vegan diet" or " its harder to keep them up", are endoresed by meat suppliers, and, some vegan ones, are endoresces by vegan buisnesses or drs) it goes both ways. You really have to go beyond the internet here. Ive asked my dr, and nutritionalists, and even teachers at school, and vegans. The vegans who routinly see their Drs for vit and mineral levels, are all on protien pills.

The bottom line is that you are happy. If it made you feel better staying away from meat, then why would you eat meat?? LOL. Humans now seem to see it as a morality choice, and very very few actualy realize the health implications of changing your diet, even from just removing red meat from their diets. If you do end up doing damage, you wont see it for decades, not with in afew days or weeks ( some vit deficientcies will show up quick, but are easy to fix of course).


But what about fats? Your body actualy needs a certain about of saturated fat, which is nigh impossible from getting from a stickly veggie diet ( of course its possible to work around it though, other wise all vegans would be very sickly, and that isnt always the case).

I do agree about eating too much protien. Many of us over eat meat, and i wouldnt ever want to try to purposly sugarcoat that. Too much can harden your arteries, leat to heavy excess fat, and heart attacks from cholesterol. But most of us also eat too much salt, and too much saturated fat, and too much sugar, too much carcenages from processed food. 50 - 80 grams of protien is what..... 10% of your daily reccomended amount? What about the 40% of your daily salt intake thats in vegaterian meals per serving? Or the loads of processed preservatives and fillers in your veggie dog? The bleach in your white flour? Theres negatives on both sides and positives. Trying to be sympothetic to animals ( that some wouldnt hesitate to attack you) is impartial in some ways to the fact that we eat to be healthy. Your health is number one. You cant help others, if you yourself is in need of care.



Well about protein, some one of my weight needs 45 grams of protein.
When i ate meat I could get up to 100 grams a day.
And placebo effects are convincing but I don't think it's so powerful
that they can make people lose weight, get rid of acne, higher their energy,
make their allergies fade, relive them from migraines, give them
strong nails/hair, lowers blood pressure, and "A major study showed that men
in the early stages of prostate cancer who switched to a vegan diet either
stopped the progress of the cancer or may have even reversed the illness."
(http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/28979.php )
and even more benefits have been reported. I highly doubt they were all from a placebo effect.

"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this
century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea
of 'real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.”
- Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine

[Time]

"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this
century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea
of 'real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.”
- Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine


Im sorry, i cant believe that. Theya re obviously biased, and are not looking at the right numbers. They probably accociated every death from a heart attack and " over ewight" people..... And you gotta think mor ethen 80% of the population eats meat..... the numbers dont add up. Theres hudreds of millions of death attributed to war in the last hundred years. WWII had millions of jewish people killed alone. East Timor had 3 million, teh Kamere rouge had millions.... the list goes on and on..

as well as those trials. Those symptoms could jsut be a diet, literaly. More veggie sin your diet is good, and promotes health, which are the exact symptoms you describe. A vegan can have all those symptoms, due to stress, let alone hundres of other ailments that can be attributed to those symptoms. Acne could be pily skin, allergies could be allergy to MSG, which is in evry processed food outthere same with migraines.

Switing to a vegetarian diet usualy makes people feel good, becasue over 80% of us dont eat enough veggies. When we switch to a vegetrtarian diet, we get laoded full of nutrients. Just becasue you feel good doesnt mean your heatly as well, but the main thing is that there are different reasons asto switching could make you feel good, NOT only becasue fo the diet.

[Lovely]

"The beef industry has contributed to more American deaths than all the wars of this
century, all natural disasters, and all automobile accidents combined. If beef is your idea
of 'real food for real people,' you'd better live real close to a real good hospital.”
- Neal D. Barnard, M.D., President, Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine


Im sorry, i cant believe that. Theya re obviously biased, and are not looking at the right numbers. They probably accociated every death from a heart attack and " over ewight" people..... And you gotta think mor ethen 80% of the population eats meat..... the numbers dont add up. Theres hudreds of millions of death attributed to war in the last hundred years. WWII had millions of jewish people killed alone. East Timor had 3 million, teh Kamere rouge had millions.... the list goes on and on..

as well as those trials. Those symptoms could jsut be a diet, literaly. More veggie sin your diet is good, and promotes health, which are the exact symptoms you describe. A vegan can have all those symptoms, due to stress, let alone hundres of other ailments that can be attributed to those symptoms. Acne could be pily skin, allergies could be allergy to MSG, which is in evry processed food outthere same with migraines.

Switing to a vegetarian diet usualy makes people feel good, becasue over 80% of us dont eat enough veggies. When we switch to a vegetrtarian diet, we get laoded full of nutrients. Just becasue you feel good doesnt mean your heatly as well, but the main thing is that there are different reasons asto switching could make you feel good, NOT only becasue fo the diet.

Yes adding veggies to you diet is great. But the benefits of vegetables/fruits
doesn't diminish the risks from meat and dairy. Meat and dairy usually are
contaminated with blood, semen, excrement, urine, E. coli, pus, listeria, bacteria,
antibiotics, and other nasties that can cause serious health problems.

http://www.healthandgoodness.com/article/health-risks-of-meat.html

[Time]

Theres risks either way. The pecticides on food have been linked to birth defects and changes in your dna. Not to mention the build up of gasses in your intestine due to massive amounts of fibre.

Everysingle one of those things is present on everything you own. Its on yoru skin, and in every bit of food you eat, as well as insect larve, carcasus, and eggs, feces from manure, as well as sulfates and nitrates from synthetic fertilizer.

[Lovely]

Theres risks either way. The pecticides on food have been linked to birth defects and changes in your dna. Not to mention the build up of gasses in your intestine due to massive amounts of fibre.

Everysingle one of those things is present on everything you own. Its on yoru skin, and in every bit of food you eat, as well as insect larve, carcasus, and eggs, feces from manure, as well as sulfates and nitrates from synthetic fertilizer.

That's why you buy organic and local vegetables/fruits that are only in seasons.
You can grow a garden (even if it's a small one) and always ALWAYS, wash
vegetables/fruits multiple times before consumption.

And while there is no diet currently available that is 100 percent perfect
and 100 percent clean, that isn't necessarily an excuse to cause more damage than necessary.

[mahakali]

hmm do you grow a garden lovely? and how do u keep bugs off? i know there is some natural ways or less harmful ways like spraying tomato leaves with dish soap for the aphids, man those suckers will kill an entire crop in a matter of days here in GA!

[Lovely]

hmm do you grow a garden lovely? and how do u keep bugs off? i know there is some natural ways or less harmful ways like spraying tomato leaves with dish soap for the aphids, man those suckers will kill an entire crop in a matter of days here in GA!

My parents have, yes. But only in the summer and not a good one lol.
And I plan to start one this spring. My neighbor
also has one and shares his vegetables with us :)
I'm not to sure how to get bugs out. Usually I never had issues with them and if
they got to our vegetables they only got to a few, not the whole patch.
I'm so new at this though so I don't know much about keeping insect away.

[Time]

Your right lovey, but once again it goes both ways. Thers jsut as much destruction to plants as to animals. A lant is a life too, and the whole " it deosnt feel pain so its ok to eat it" is a very ignorant way to think of life ( i know you didnt say that at all, im saying in general). You are right, we have to do as less damage as possible, to both plants and animals. Not JUST animals, and of course ourselves as well.

Buying organic is awsome, so is buying local. It reduces gas emissions and other resorces. And growing your own food is even better! But you can do that with yoru meat as well.

Mahakali - thats easy, dont let the conditions that the bugs thrive in happen! DOnt mass plant things, thats going to encourage disease spread and virusus. Also, make your garden a mini forest, so things will enourace natural predators to come and balance the ecological webs that the garden crates, instead of doing all the work youself. let nature work with you

[Lovely]

Your right lovey, but once again it goes both ways. Thers jsut as much destruction to plants as to animals. A lant is a life too, and the whole " it deosnt feel pain so its ok to eat it" is a very ignorant way to think of life ( i know you didnt say that at all, im saying in general). You are right, we have to do as less damage as possible, to both plants and animals. Not JUST animals, and of course ourselves as well.

Buying organic is awsome, so is buying local. It reduces gas emissions and other resorces. And growing your own food is even better! But you can do that with yoru meat as well.

Mahakali - thats easy, dont let the conditions that the bugs thrive in happen! DOnt mass plant things, thats going to encourage disease spread and virusus. Also, make your garden a mini forest, so things will enourace natural predators to come and balance the ecological webs that the garden crates, instead of doing all the work youself. let nature work with you

It's not that it's ok to eat because it can't feel pain.
But plants/fruits are the only thing we vegans can eat.
We, if we're lucky, have a choice between eating an animal AND a plant
or only eat a plant.

[Time]

But thats jsut it its a choice, its not that its the only thing you can eat or you die, its by choice. If tis by choice, you cant say anything about anyone elses preference for food.

I eat everything, becasue thats what im supposed to eat. I respect my food as much as I can, and compost, and garden, growing more and more of my own food each year with no fertilizer or pecticides. This will probably save a part of a cow, and a few chickens and a portion of a pig in the year, but every little bit helps. I cant go vegan becasue i dont see any point in it. But thats just me. Im not going to go this way is better then the other, because in the hard cold reality of it, there is NO real difference at all.

Lovley, you are a smart person, and seem to research to soem degree. Id like to make a sort of challenge (more liek request but.. LOL). I want you to learn as much about plants as you can in a month. If your parents have house plants. Take over charge of their care. If they dont have some, buy some. Grow things from seeds ( if you want PM me, ill give you a long list of things you can grow from the grocery store). Read " the seceret life of plants" ( its liek 200 pages quick read), and possibly "gaias garden". Also, there are free documentary sites online. Watch the planet earth documentaries on the forests and plants. Go for a walk with soem friends in some wooded area, and see how the plants are, and their relationship with everything around them. Im not saying ( or trying), to change your veiw. But i think you will have a whole new respect for plants. And i mean this whole heartedly as well.

[mahakali]

plants may have a spirit but they dont have a nervous system. i really think they are just so different that there is no way to tell what they go through. what if plants are enlightened in a way where they live in perfect balance? we dont know for sure but one thing i do know is that animals are like us and i think they may be struggling in the evolution of spirit, like what if they are on the line of reincarnating as a human or dwelling in a hell realm. i dont see plants being lost and absorbed in there ego, but i do see how humans and animals can. im want to help animals evolve spiritually, not add to there suffering. i think that if an entity suffers real bad at the moment of death they can slip into a hell realm. watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RutlcweQAs now i dont see this type of personality in plants, plants may be on a whole different level, i really get the feeling they are. like they have no opinions, i mean physically they have no brains so they prob dont reason and suffer like humans confused in the material reality. i would think that plants are more connected to the spirit world, so they dont need our help like the animals do. does this make any sense? like killing plants are ok bc they are sort of all connected as spirit like a realized person would be. so they dont loose anything where an animal might loose a chance to incarnate as something higher.

[Lovely]

But thats jsut it its a choice, its not that its the only thing you can eat or you die, its by choice. If tis by choice, you cant say anything about anyone elses preference for food.

I eat everything, becasue thats what im supposed to eat. I respect my food as much as I can, and compost, and garden, growing more and more of my own food each year with no fertilizer or pecticides. This will probably save a part of a cow, and a few chickens and a portion of a pig in the year, but every little bit helps. I cant go vegan becasue i dont see any point in it. But thats just me. Im not going to go this way is better then the other, because in the hard cold reality of it, there is NO real difference at all.

Lovley, you are a smart person, and seem to research to soem degree. Id like to make a sort of challenge (more liek request but.. LOL). I want you to learn as much about plants as you can in a month. If your parents have house plants. Take over charge of their care. If they dont have some, buy some. Grow things from seeds ( if you want PM me, ill give you a long list of things you can grow from the grocery store). Read " the seceret life of plants" ( its liek 200 pages quick read), and possibly "gaias garden". Also, there are free documentary sites online. Watch the planet earth documentaries on the forests and plants. Go for a walk with soem friends in some wooded area, and see how the plants are, and their relationship with everything around them. Im not saying ( or trying), to change your veiw. But i think you will have a whole new respect for plants. And i mean this whole heartedly as well.


I'll try that :)

But plants and animals are totally different.
Animals can mourn the lose of a child or friend.
They feel fear, they form friendships, they feel pain.
They are sentient beings who are currently being treated like
an object. Pigs have the intelligence of a 3 year old child.
Cows have been found to solve puzzles and their heart beats
faster when they do. That means they actually feel happy and get
excited when they figured something out.
Turkeys have even been reported to have taste in music. And chickens
form flocks and friendships.

While it's true we are animals and other animals eat animals;
We are different than other animals.
We have the ability to think and make choices. We can think
about the impact we have on the animal and his/her friends. What
affect it has on our body, and on our planet.

If you were in another culture you would be eating dogs and cats.
And I'm sure you have or know someone who has a dog/cat so
you know how smart and caring they can be.

Why is it okay to eat cows, but not dogs? They both suffer.
It's specist.

Humans are only one specie out of 5-30 million .
We don't own the planet even though we think we do.

We can look at animals and see how vulnerable it is.
We can see it is sad and scared. When a new born baby cow is
torn away from its mom to be veal it is scared and sad. It wants its
mother but it will never see her again.

It may be sad we have to eat plants/fruits, but why does that justify
eating animals as well?

Not to mention by breeding more and more and more animals they are going
to eat more and more and more plants. Therefore mass consumption of meat
harms plants too.

16 pounds of grain will be gone to make one pound of beef.

In a world where people are literally dying for water
2,500 gallons is being use to make only one pound of beef.

Switching to even only a vegetarian diet is better for the environment
that driving a hybrid car.

I'm just trying to inform you, not make you feel guilty
since I've contributed to the meat & dairy industry as well in the past.

And one more thing we have no choice but to eat plants/fruits,
but we DO have a choice to eat meat or not.

[Time]

Its not an easy concept to grasp. But like you said, why dont we eat dogs, its speciest? Thats right, and the same goes with saying its different form eating plants and not animals. ITs cherry picking, due to your personal preference. You can live on a meat only diet, just as much as a vegan diet and it takes as much work. ITs no different either way. Farming vplants is one of the most destructive thigns man has invented. Any enviromentalist will tell you that. Over half the water used is strickly for agriculture. Not to mention all the fertilizers that create dead zones in water ( look up the lake eerie dead zone). TIs when algea blooms to the high amount of nitrates, and sucks the oxygen out of the water, eliminating anlife in that area. Not to mention the forests that were cut down to make the land farmable, and more then likley burnt, putting carbon dioxide int he air. The gasoline used to runt he farm equipment. And farming, due tot he fertilizers, and stripping of nutrients int he land ( due to non relplacement), there is over a 45% loss of topsoil in the US. That means almsot nothing can grow there untill succession by plants makes soil over a decade. Over 3/4 of the original primary forest in northamerica was burned and destroyed for farming ( plants and animals to be fair). Not to mentiuon the shipping of the fruits from california and etc. We cant grow everythign everywhere. Citrus, which is the primary source of vitamine c we get, can only survive in 5% of the country ( US), and most of the country cant grow food year round either. Food has to be sent by truck or boat. Half of our fruit comes from out of the country ( canada, and even the US).

Mala - I think its ego to tihnk that humans are above anything at all. All we are are apes with intellect and an aposable thumb. Were as much nature as the crow, tree or river. Plants dont need a nervous system. They are the first life to evolve ont his planet, and without it, life as we know it wouldnt exsist. Plants are 400 million eyars old, and predate any animal. They are well beyond humans in evolutionalry terms. We put human dfeelings into everything, and saying that casue plants dotn have a nervous system is folly. Of course they dont, they arent animals. But that doesnt mean that it isnt life. Clams are thoguht not to have pain receptors, yet its an animal. Same with lobster, they apperantly dont feel it being cooked alive, yet vegans cringe when you hear of this ( and tbh I do to , i dont liek the thought of things being cooked alive)

Dispite what it may sound like, im not discouraging vegans. Only the attitude that it si better then anything esle, that its healthier, that its mroe friendly to the enviroment, and less harmful to animals..... life feeds on life, everything eats meat eventualy becase the meat is brocken down and the plants ingest it.

Plants are life too, we are made up of the same things as them, and are reincarated either into, or by plants. We get broken down into soil, which is ingested by plants, which is eaten by animals, which is made into you, and the cycle begins again. Life is created from life, and life needs life to survive. And that includes plants. We cant say they dont feel pain becasue weve never actualy checked. And the question is asked again.... would you eat a human or a cow if you knew he wouldnt feel pain?

[Lovely]

Its not an easy concept to grasp. But like you said, why dont we eat dogs, its speciest? Thats right, and the same goes with saying its different form eating plants and not animals. ITs cherry picking, due to your personal preference. You can live on a meat only diet, just as much as a vegan diet and it takes as much work. ITs no different either way. Farming vplants is one of the most destructive thigns man has invented. Any enviromentalist will tell you that. Over half the water used is strickly for agriculture. Not to mention all the fertilizers that create dead zones in water ( look up the lake eerie dead zone). TIs when algea blooms to the high amount of nitrates, and sucks the oxygen out of the water, eliminating anlife in that area. Not to mention the forests that were cut down to make the land farmable, and more then likley burnt, putting carbon dioxide int he air. The gasoline used to runt he farm equipment. And farming, due tot he fertilizers, and stripping of nutrients int he land ( due to non relplacement), there is over a 45% loss of topsoil in the US. That means almsot nothing can grow there untill succession by plants makes soil over a decade. Over 3/4 of the original primary forest in northamerica was burned and destroyed for farming ( plants and animals to be fair). Not to mentiuon the shipping of the fruits from california and etc. We cant grow everythign everywhere. Citrus, which is the primary source of vitamine c we get, can only survive in 5% of the country ( US), and most of the country cant grow food year round either. Food has to be sent by truck or boat. Half of our fruit comes from out of the country ( canada, and even the US).

Mala - I think its ego to tihnk that humans are above anything at all. All we are are apes with intellect and an aposable thumb. Were as much nature as the crow, tree or river. Plants dont need a nervous system. They are the first life to evolve ont his planet, and without it, life as we know it wouldnt exsist. Plants are 400 million eyars old, and predate any animal. They are well beyond humans in evolutionalry terms. We put human dfeelings into everything, and saying that casue plants dotn have a nervous system is folly. Of course they dont, they arent animals. But that doesnt mean that it isnt life. Clams are thoguht not to have pain receptors, yet its an animal. Same with lobster, they apperantly dont feel it being cooked alive, yet vegans cringe when you hear of this ( and tbh I do to , i dont liek the thought of things being cooked alive)

Dispite what it may sound like, im not discouraging vegans. Only the attitude that it si better then anything esle, that its healthier, that its mroe friendly to the enviroment, and less harmful to animals..... life feeds on life, everything eats meat eventualy becase the meat is brocken down and the plants ingest it.

Plants are life too, we are made up of the same things as them, and are reincarated either into, or by plants. We get broken down into soil, which is ingested by plants, which is eaten by animals, which is made into you, and the cycle begins again. Life is created from life, and life needs life to survive. And that includes plants. We cant say they dont feel pain becasue weve never actualy checked. And the question is asked again.... would you eat a human or a cow if you knew he wouldnt feel pain?


I already said it's not because it can't feel pain.
It's because we need it to live. And meat eaters contribute
to the plant farming industry too. They eat vegetables and fruit too.
And the meat industry is way worse than the plant farming industry.
Cows eating so much plants, grass, and wheat. And meat makes
more more and more cows. The meat industry destroys so much
land and is horrible for the environment. Meat eaters contribute to the plant farming AND the meat industry.

[NightSpirit]

[quote=Time]Thats the funny thing about vegans. THey usualy feel better, but theres no actual scientific proof to say so. Its probably due to the fact taht they are making them selves feel happy, and or the placebo effect - You think it will do something and it did.

I have a theory on this. Could it be because the stomach has to work harder to break down dense meat? That's why they say not to eat heavy meals close to bed-time. And that's why we suffer more colon cancers i believe.




and heart attacks from cholesterol.

There is absolutely no proven research that high cholesterol causes heart attacks. Trust me I've had this checked out thoroughly before i stopped taking statins. My son-in-law is a natural diet therapist and has done large amounts of research into this for his practice. It's been researched by the best and not one has a proven argument to link heart attack with ch. Its all to do with LDL/HDL's. But anyway, its starting to move away from the topic.


Protein, whichever way you get it, is a must for the body for weight, bones, muscles, skin and blood.

As long as vegans are aware of this then there's no problem.

[Time]

Nononono Lovley, i didnt mean it as YOU, but weve agreed before that one of the main reasons to go vege is just what we are stating ( casue animals can feel pain, plants "cant"). I didnt mean fo ryou to take it as YOU.

And everything needs to live to some degree. Who gives us ( people) the right to judge who lives and who dies? What gives us the right to judge what is "right or wrong" to eat? No other aniimal as far as we know thinks the same way about food as we do. ITs becasue were spoiled in the fact we can eat what ever we want. No other animal gets that choice. Its eat or be eaten. The rule of life, is life is there to sustain other life. A wolf doesnt think of " oh it thinks like me, so ill go chew on some bark instead" ( and you cant use the argument that dogs are carnivores. They arent dogs are omnivorious like us, generaly eating anything on hand) The only reason we have thee problems with farming meat is becasue humans have no concept of too much. We throw away 40% of our food (vege and meat) every year. How is that respectful?

Even at that, chimps are similar to our cognitive abilities ( not to our extent but they are close). We know chimps feel, we know they communicate etc... yet, the second anyother monkey comes close to their territory, they attack it without remorse, and eat it. Killer whales drown their food before they eat it ( whales and dolphins have almsot the same kinds of emotions as us) yet they dont care about dragging down a baby seal for food.

I definetly agree that plant and animals farmers generaly work together. How else are they going to feed the animals? But that doesnt mean that animal farming is any better then vege farming. Its disgusting how much damage any farming does, and no matter amount of talking around it is goingto make it any different, they are BOTH equily harmful, and too many vegans are to high on their horses to realise this ( not saying you, you have a better grasp on the concept then most veges ive talked to, at least your willing to listin LOL) And its sad, because vegans can do some great work, if their unbiased, and MANY arent because that whole "holier then thou" attitude thats is usualy attributed to veganism ( and I know im not the only one here who knows this as well). And thats too bad because their hearts are in the right place, and their intentions are there, but that doesnt mean their eating habits are any better then mine....

Lovley, if i remember your in the states. If you can, ask your dr about this, and as well, try and request a nuttritionist, and ask her so me questions. Its your jobs to ask questions, and its their job to answer them. You would be suprised at how conflicting general nutritionalists info and drs info conflicts heavily with the vegan operated info ( and as well to be fair, the meat info as well). If your independatly looking for information, especialy with these sort of matters, make sure they come from a reputable university, or medical program, not one or 2 vegan drs information. Thats like having a catholic priest interperate a non catholic religion. IT doesnt work, and you KNOW that the information wont be unbiased.


NS - LDL/.HTL are forms of cholesterol if i remember right. And its not only the cholesterol that does it, its the saturated that that usualy follows the high cholesterol. Cholesterol is well known to clog your arteries. I cant argue against a trained physisian, but my reasearch states slightly different.

And i have heard of this too. But the opposite, our stomachs cant handle a long term vege only diet. All herbivores need to ingest rocks, or gizzard stones), to hel break down plant matter. That is why cows have 4 stomachs, and why elephant dung ususaly has large pebbles in it. ITs an attribute usualy attributed to birds, but as far as I know almost all strict herbavorious animals, use gizzard stones to help break down plant matter.

I agree abot the protien. But no one has mentioneed the saturated fat question. How can you get saturated fat intake ( which humans MUST have), without eating meat?

[NightSpirit]

[quote=Time]


NS - LDL/.HTL are forms of cholesterol if i remember right. And its not only the cholesterol that does it, its the saturated that that usualy follows the high cholesterol. Cholesterol is well known to clog your arteries. I cant argue against a trained physisian, but my reasearch states slightly different.

And i have heard of this too. But the opposite, our stomachs cant handle a long term vege only diet.


Yep your correct...its saturated fat. High chol. is also hereditary, even though one can maintain a good diet. I won't debate on this post about our differences of thoughts as its not appropriate here, but thanks for response.

[Time]

LOL no I agree too. This sort of research is still being done, so there is going to be more conflicting research. But we can at least agree.... to much fat = high cholesterol which can cuase major heart problems. And yes, this can be due to overeating red meat .....

To be fair to, eating veges can hel lower your cholesterol, becasue lant sterols are thought to lower it. But its not eating meat, its not eating enough veggies that is most of the problem.

And... cmon NS its alwas appropriate to state your thoughts..... LOL argue... come to the dark side ** evil laugh LOL

[Chrysaetos]

If you were in another culture you would be eating dogs and cats.
And I'm sure you have or know someone who has a dog/cat so
you know how smart and caring they can be.

Why is it okay to eat cows, but not dogs? They both suffer.
It's specist. You are defeating your own argument here, as you are a specisist yourself. :P We all are in a sense, because we make our own choices. We don't eat humans do we?Not to mention by breeding more and more and more animals they are going
to eat more and more and more plants. Therefore mass consumption of meat harms plants too. 16 pounds of grain will be gone to make one pound of beef. In a world where people are literally dying for water
2,500 gallons is being use to make only one pound of beef.Switching to even only a vegetarian diet is better for the environment
that driving a hybrid car.It depends on what 'meat' we're talking about and how it is produced. As an example, if all people gave up eating fish (especially Asians) more forests would have to be destroyed so people could get their protein. It all leads to one issue here, that's not about meat or plants, but about overpopulation.
And one more thing we have no choice but to eat plants/fruits,
but we DO have a choice to eat meat or not.Hmm ask the Inuit?

[NightSpirit]

LOL no I agree too. This sort of research is still being done, so there is going to be more conflicting research. But we can at least agree.... to much fat = high cholesterol which can cuase major heart problems. And yes, this can be due to overeating red meat .....

To be fair to, eating veges can hel lower your cholesterol, becasue lant sterols are thought to lower it. But its not eating meat, its not eating enough veggies that is most of the problem.

And... cmon NS its alwas appropriate to state your thoughts..... LOL argue... come to the dark side ** evil laugh LOL

Oh sure...im cool with stepping to the dark side *evil wink* . Just being polite to the threads agenda and i feel maybe we are getting off topic.

[Chrysaetos]

And the meat industry is way worse than the plant farming industry. Cows eating so much plants, grass, and wheat. And meat makes
more more and more cows. The meat industry destroys so much
land and is horrible for the environment. Meat eaters contribute to the plant farming AND the meat industry.Ever heard about the palm oil industry? Or forests in China being cleared for fruit, rice, vegetables? Chocolate?
Looking at Brazil's cow farmers is one part of the picture..

The meater who eats local chicken and fruit makes a better choice protecting the environment then a vegan from a western country eating bananas and rice.
It's not about meat or plants as a whole, it's about where and how it is produced..

[Time]

I agree wholy chrys. I will say though, at least with plant farming, something goes back, animal farming only keeps taking away from the enviroment. I cant agrue against that LOL.

But your right, its over population, combined with no regard for what life is, and our over exuberance when it comes to having more.....

[JustAm]

Question: When was the last time you were able to live without consuming any animal products for two weeks?

If you have, you might understand what I mean when I say being vegan feels wonderful! But if you haven't, you still have decades to experience something new, but when? Two weeks isn't long, but you might find its easier said than done.

Again, it doesn't have to do with morals (good or evil), just feeling good. But dont take my word for it, try it out for yourself. :)

[Lovely]

How can you get saturated fat intake ( which humans MUST have), without eating meat?[/SIZE]


Oils :)
Coconut oil, palm oil, vegetable oil.

Also nuts are a good source of saturated fat.

However I don't consume palm oil since it causes mass
reforestation.

May I also point out our early ancestors lived off of berries and nuts while meats came on later during
the ice age when they HAD to eat meat for survival. But even they knew not to eat meat so they roasted it.

[psychoslice]

Why cause unnecessary pain & trauma since it is really only to satisfy your taste buds?
I think this is the best and simplest answer, we simply have the choice not to cause pain, why not take that choice, especially if you consider yourself spiritual.

[Lovely]

A little about our ancestors diet:
(They are ordered from oldest to youngest)

Ardipithecus ramidus
AGE: 4.4 million years
DIET: Fruit, leaves, seeds

Australopithecus anamensis
AGE:4.2-3.9 million years
DIET:Possibly fruits and seeds; also some evidence of harder
food.

Australopithecus afarensis
AGE: 3.9 – 3.0 million years ago
DIET: Fruits, nuts, seeds, tubers

Australopithecus aethiopicus
AGE: 2.7 million years- 2.5 years
DIET: Hard, gritty foods such as nuts and tubers; foods that require
extremely heavy chewing.

Australopithecus africanus
AGE: 3.0 – 2.3 million years
DIET: fruits, nuts, seeds, tubers

Australopithecus robustus
AGE: 2.0 million -1.0 million years
DIET: Hard gritty foods such as nuts and tubers;
may have included meat

Australopithecus boisei
AGE: 2.3 – 1.2 million years
DIET: Hard, gritty foods such as nuts and tubers

Homo habilis
AGE:1.9 – 1.8 millions years
DIET: Generalized diet; may have included some meat.

Homo erectus
AGE: 1.8 millions
DIET: Generalized diet; included some meat.

Homo neanderthalensis
AGE: 150,000 – 30,000 years
DIET: Generalized, but with a reliance on meat.

Homo heidelbergensis
AGE: 600,000- 100,000 years
Diet: Generalized

Homo sapiens
AGE:100,000 years – present
DIET: Generalized

SOURCE: http://www.becominghuman.org/

As you can see for millions and millions of year our ancestors lived
on a vegan diet. And they managed to live :)

Our ancestors were more like animals than we are, they lived off
of instincts. And their instincts told them to eat berries, nuts, seeds etc.
but it didn't tell them to kill and eat animals. Meat eating was a choice,
not a natural or instinctual thing we can't control.

Looking at our evolution it's clear to see that meat eating is a pretty new
concept.
http://www.eugeneveg.org/img/Special/B4/humanherbchart_600x617.jpg

[Lovely]

Ever heard about the palm oil industry? Or forests in China being cleared for fruit, rice, vegetables? Chocolate?
Looking at Brazil's cow farmers is one part of the picture..

The meater who eats local chicken and fruit makes a better choice protecting the environment then a vegan from a western country eating bananas and rice.
It's not about meat or plants as a whole, it's about where and how it is produced..

The animal farming industry is destroying our environment worse than the
vegetable farming industry. There is currently no %100 percent humane and
unharmful diet. But why pick the one that's most harmful?

Also, some vegans don't use palm oil.

I also hope you know I'm not saying I'm better than meat eaters because of my diet.
I'm not saying veganism is 100 percent safe and perfect and causes no harm what so ever.
I'm just saying live stock is extremely awful for the animals, your body, and the environmental.
The following findings were compiled from the executive summary of Livestock’s Long Shadow: Environmental Issues and Options,* a 2006 report published by the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization:


Hog farm waste lagoons in Georgia (above) and North Carolina (below). Click images for larger views; courtesy of USDA.

Climate change: With rising temperatures, rising sea levels, melting icecaps and glaciers, shifting ocean currents and weather patterns, climate change is the most serious challenge facing the human race. The livestock sector is a major player, responsible for 18 percent of greenhouse gas emissions measured in CO2 equivalent.… Livestock are also responsible for almost two-thirds (64 percent) of anthropogenic ammonia emissions, which contribute significantly to acid rain and acidification of ecosystems. [See also A Truly Inconvenient Truth.]

Water: The livestock sector is a key player in increasing water use, accounting for over 8 percent of global human water use, mostly for the irrigation of feedcrops. It is probably the largest sectoral source of water pollution, contributing to eutrophication, “dead” zones in coastal areas, degradation of coral reefs, human health problems, emergence of antibiotic resistance and many others. The major sources of pollution are from animal wastes, antibiotics and hormones, chemicals from tanneries, fertilizers and pesticides used for feedcrops, and sediments from eroded pastures.


Manure runoff from a dairy farm in Maryland (click image for larger view; courtesy of USDA NRCS).
Land degradation: Expansion of livestock production is a key factor in deforestation, especially in Latin America where the greatest amount of deforestation is occurring – 70 percent of previous forested land in the Amazon is occupied by pastures, and feedcrops cover a large part of the remainder.

Biodiversity: Indeed, the livestock sector may well be the leading player in the reduction of biodiversity, since it is the major driver of deforestation, as well as one of the leading drivers of land degradation, pollution, climate change, overfishing, sedimentation of coastal areas and facilitation of invasions by alien species.

*Note: The term “livestock” refers to all farmed animals, including pigs, birds raised for meat,

SOURCE: http://www.veganoutreach.org

[Lovely]

You are defeating your own argument here, as you are a specisist yourself. :P We all are in a sense, because we make our own choices.

We don't eat humans do we?It depends on what 'meat' we're talking about and how it is produced. As an example, if all people gave up eating fish (especially Asians) more forests would have to be destroyed so people could get their protein. It all leads to one issue here, that's not about meat or plants, but about overpopulation.


Hmm ask the Inuit?


How am I defeating my own purpose? And why would you think I'm a specisist?



You do understand they're are plenty of source for protein that
DON'T come from a forest, right? They can come from a farm or your
very own garden

SOURCE OF PROTEIN EXAMPLES:
Alfalfa
Artichokes
Asparagus
Avocados
Soybeans
Beans
Beets
Cabbage
Carrots
Cauliflower
Celery
Corn
Cucumber
Dandelion
Endive
Garlic
Lentils
Lettuce
Mushrooms
Mustard greens
Okra
Olives
Onions
Parsley
Parsnips
Peas
Peppers
Potatoes
Pumpkin
Radishes
Spinach
Squash
Sweet potato
Tomatoes
Watermelon
Buckwheat flour
Buckwheat groats
Bulgur
Cornmeal
Noodles
Oat bran
Peanut butter
Quinoa
Rice
Spaghetti
Tempeh
Tofu
Wheat flour
Whole wheat bread
Veggie burger

I could grow some of these items myself.

And I'm guessing you're not an Inuit. So their needs
are different than yours.

Not to mention they CAN eat other things than meat:

While it is not possible to cultivate plants for food in the Arctic, the Inuit have traditionally gathered those that are naturally available. Grasses, tubers, roots, stems, berries, and seaweed (kuanniq or edible seaweed) were collected and preserved depending on the season and the location.

[Chrysaetos]

Again, it doesn't have to do with morals (good or evil), just feeling good. But dont take my word for it, try it out for yourself. :)I can only speak for myself and can say I don't feel good about veganism or any strict for of vegetarianism. I think this is the best and simplest answer, we simply have the choice not to cause pain, why not take that choice, especially if you consider yourself spiritual.If it's about spirituality, then whatever spiritual authority there is (god, self, soul) could've made a different world.
We are simply adapting to the natural system and how can we be blamed for that? As you can see for millions and millions of year our ancestors lived
on a vegan diet. And they managed to live :)These are statements, not facts.

And I'd like to point out that we are not our ancestors. We live now with our own bodies!
We have omnivore bodies and that certainly isn't ''new'' or something we ''got'' during the Ice Age, lol.

[Chrysaetos]

The animal farming industry is destroying our environment worse than the
vegetable farming industry. There is currently no %100 percent humane and
unharmful diet. But why pick the one that's most harmful?You are making sweeping generalisations. It appears to me you are using a ''plant food always good for the environment, meat is always bad for the environment'' argument. But we have to look at every product, how it was produced and how it came to be.

We should look beyond ''plants vs meat'', and look at each case specifically.

[Lovely]

I can only speak for myself and must say I don't feel good about veganism or any strict for of vegetarianism. If it's about spirituality, then whatever spiritual authority there is (god, self, soul) could've made a different world. We are simply adapting to the natural system and how can we be blamed for that? These are statements, not facts.

And I'd like to point out that we are not our ancestors. We live now with our own bodies!

We have omnivore bodies and that certainly isn't ''new'' or something we ''got'' during the Ice Age, lol.

But we don't have a body designed for meat eating.
Take a look at this chart :smile:

http://www.detox.net.au/images/chartqo5-1.jpg

Killing and eating animals is not in our instincts.
How many times have you seen road kill
and uncontrollably ate it?

Also why don't you feel "good" about veganism?
Are you an anti-vegan?

[Lovely]

You are making sweeping generalisations. It appears to me you are using a ''plant food always good for the environment, meat is always bad for the environment'' argument. But we have to look at every product, how it was produced and how it came to be.

We should look beyond ''plants vs meat'', and look at each case specifically.

I said it before to you, I'll say it again:

"I also hope you know I'm not saying I'm better than meat eaters because of my diet. I'm not saying veganism is 100 percent safe and perfect and causes no harm what so ever."

[Chrysaetos]

How am I defeating my own purpose? And why would you think I'm a specisist?Plants and humans are species too.
You do understand they're are plenty of source for protein that DON'T come from a forest, right? They can come from a farm or your
very own gardenMany vegetarian products cause deforestation. Examples: Rice, bananas, soybeans, palm oil, etc. And I'm guessing you're not an Inuit. So their needs are different than yours.True, but you said people can't survive on meat alone. Clearly they can.

[Chrysaetos]

But we don't have a body designed for meat eating.
We do.
We have sharp eyes at front, can analyse distances, make plans, and hunt.
If we were herbivores, we would eat all day long.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Sleep_in_animals (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.scholarpedia.org%25 25252Farticle%2525252FSleep_in_animals)
May as well have a look here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruminent (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fen.wikipedia.org%252525 2Fwiki%2525252FRuminent) http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/rte/mellow.gif
Killing and eating animals is not in our instincts.
How many times have you seen road kill and uncontrollably ate it?It is in our instincts. It's civilisation that gives us the luxury to choose and not to take any responsibilities.
We've become dull and now we think we are separate from nature..

[Lovely]

Plants and humans are species too.
Many vegetarian products cause deforestation. Examples: Rice, bananas, soybeans, palm oil, etc. True, but you said people can't survive on meat alone. Clearly they can.

I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say you can't live off of meat alone.
They do but that doesn't necessarily mean it's healthy

Also I'm not against one organism eating another organism for survival.
But why do it when it's not necessary? :smile:

[Lovely]

We do.
We have sharp eyes at front, can analyse distances, make plans, and hunt.
If we were herbivores, we would eat all day long.

http://www.scholarpedia.org/article/Sleep_in_animals (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fwww.scholarpedia.org%25 25252Farticle%2525252FSleep_in_animals)
May as well have a look here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruminent (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.spiritualforums. com%25252Fvb%25252Fredir.php%25253Flink%25253Dhttp %2525253A%2525252F%2525252Fen.wikipedia.org%252525 2Fwiki%2525252FRuminent) http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/fckeditor/editor/images/smiley/rte/mellow.gif
It is in our instincts. It's civilisation that gives us the luxury to choose and not to take any responsibilities.
We've become dull and now we think we are separate from nature..


No, if we needed meat I would be dead.


Meat-eaters: have claws
Herbivores: no claws
Humans: no claws

Meat-eaters: have no skin pores and perspire through the tongue
Herbivores: perspire through skin pores
Humans: perspire through skin pores

Meat-eaters: have sharp front teeth for tearing, with no flat molar teeth for grinding
Herbivores: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding
Humans: no sharp front teeth, but flat rear molars for grinding

Meat-eaters: have intestinal tract that is only 3 times their body length so that rapidly decaying meat can pass through quickly
Herbivores: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.
Humans: have intestinal tract 10-12 times their body length.

Meat-eaters: have strong hydrochloric acid in stomach to digest meat
Herbivores: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater
Humans: have stomach acid that is 20 times weaker than that of a meat-eater

Meat-eaters: salivary glands in mouth not needed to pre-digest grains and fruits.
Herbivores: well-developed salivary glands which are necessary to pre-digest grains and fruits
Humans: well-developed salivary glands, which are necessary to pre-digest, grains and fruits

Meat-eaters: have acid saliva with no enzyme ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Herbivores: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Humans: have alkaline saliva with ptyalin to pre-digest grains
Based on a chart by A.D. Andrews, Fit Food for Men, (Chicago: American Hygiene Society, 1970)

http://www.celestialhealing.net/physicalveg3.htm

http://sites.jabyte.com/health/Home/humans-are-herbivores


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05zhL1YUd8Q

[Lovely]

Plants and humans are species too.
Many vegetarian products cause deforestation. Examples: Rice, bananas, soybeans, palm oil, etc. True, but you said people can't survive on meat alone. Clearly they can.

Meat eaters contribute to rice,bananas, vegetables, palm
oil as well.

If they eat a cheese burger it probably has lettuce and tomatoes on it.
Or if not it has bread which contains wheat.
It takes 16 grains of pound to make 1 pounds of beef.
While only one pound of vegetable only uses 1 pound of grain.

Vegetable/fruits have an bad affect on the environment but
meat has a worse one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/8438737/Cut-out-meat-to-stop-nitrogen-pollution-say-scientists.html
http://vegetarian.about.com/od/vegetarianvegan101/f/fossilfuels.htm
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19526134.500-meat-is-murder-on-the-environment.html
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn16573-eating-less-meat-could-cut-climate-costs.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=89676010
http://www.peta.org/issues/animals-used-for-food/meat-and-environment.aspx
http://www.emagazine.com/archive/142
http://noimpactman.typepad.com/blog/2007/08/why-the-no-impa.html

[Chrysaetos]

No, if we needed meat I would be dead. How would you know that?Meat-eaters: have claws Herbivores: no claws Humans: no clawsWe do not need claws, because our main weapon is intelligence. We can use that to make tools and hunt. And we are deadly good at that. You should look at some documentaries about native hunters and come back saying we don't have the instincts.

I'm not going through that whole list as it's based on the assumption that there exist only herbivores and carnivores. How ridiculous!
Our eyes, teeth, and hunting skill and mind is all the proof that is needed.

Please skip no more biology lessons!
Also I'm not against one organism eating another organism for survival. But why do it when it's not necessary? Because it is necessary to survive, we have to eat other organisms. Some choose to be vegan, others not.

Plant production causes deforestation and harm to animals as well. So does meat production.
The difference is that a piece of meat on the plate is more in your face, it's more direct and confrontational.
When we eat veggies or bread, we generally assume it was all fair along the way.

[Chrysaetos]

Meat eaters contribute to rice,bananas, vegetables, palm
oil as well.
If they eat a cheese burger it probably has lettuce and tomatoes on it.
Or if not it has bread which contains wheat.
It takes 16 grains of pound to make 1 pounds of beef.
While only one pound of vegetable only uses 1 pound of grain.
Vegetable/fruits have an bad affect on the environment but
meat has a worse one. Note the word IF. Exactly. If we eat that, but do we eat that?
(http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2F earth%2Fearthnews%2F8438737%2FCut-out-meat-to-stop-nitrogen-pollution-say-scientists.html)

[Lovely]

How would you know that?We do not need claws, because our main weapon is intelligence. We can use that to make tools and hunt. And we are deadly good at that. You should look at some documentaries about native hunters and come back saying we don't have the instincts.

I'm not going through that whole list as it's based on the assumption that there exist only herbivores and carnivores. How ridiculous!
Our eyes, teeth, and hunting skill and mind is all the proof that is needed.
Because it is necessary to survive, we have to eat other organisms. Some choose to be vegan, others not.

Plant production causes deforestation and harm to animals as well. So does meat production. The difference is that a piece of meat on the plate is more in your face, it's more direct and confrontational. When we eat veggies or bread, we assume it was all fair along the way.

If we NEEDED meat I would be dead since I haven't had it for a year.

And you misunderstood. We do not NEED claws to kill. We can kill
with intelligence. But our intelligence isn't proof we are omnivores.

[Lovely]

Note the word IF. Exactly. If we eat that, but do we eat that?
(http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.telegraph.co.uk%2F earth%2Fearthnews%2F8438737%2FCut-out-meat-to-stop-nitrogen-pollution-say-scientists.html)

A cheese burger was just an example. It's not the only way meat eaters
contribute to the plant industry.

[Chrysaetos]

If we NEEDED meat I would be dead since I haven't had it for a year.I'm sure you can survive on plants alone. We are omnivores so we are versatile and can live on different diets.
The fact that you can choose already shows that you are one. If you were a herbivore or carnivore, there wouldn't be any discussion. That's the irony of these discussions. :D
And you misunderstood. We do not NEED claws to kill. We can kill with intelligence. But our intelligence isn't proof we are omnivores.Oh yes it is. We can analyse distances and make plans, think ahead. This is a common trait in omnivores and carnivores.

[Lovely]

I'm sure you can survive on plants alone. We are omnivores so we are versatile and can live on different diets.
The fact that you can choose already shows that you are one. If you were a herbivore or carnivore, there wouldn't be any discussion. That's the irony of these discussions. :D
Oh yes it is. We can analyse distances and make plans, think ahead. This is a common trait in omnivores and carnivores.

No it doesn't, it just means we are highly evolved.

[Lovely]

I'm sure you can survive on plants alone. We are omnivores so we are versatile and can live on different diets.
The fact that you can choose already shows that you are one. If you were a herbivore or carnivore, there wouldn't be any discussion. That's the irony of these discussions. :D
Oh yes it is. We can analyse distances and make plans, think ahead. This is a common trait in omnivores and carnivores.

I would also like to also like to add since we have this intelligence we
have the ability to understand that animals feel pain and have emotions
just like us. They feel fear like us and they want to live like us.

I think I'm done debating this.
I strongly suggest you watch the documentary Earthlings.
It's so powerful:
http://www.documentarywire.com/earthlings

I wish you the best of luck :hug3:

[Chrysaetos]

I would also like to also like to add since we have this intelligence we
have the ability to understand that animals feel pain and have emotions
just like us. They feel fear like us and they want to live like us. Which animals ''feel pain and have emotions just like us''..?

And whether we like it or not, animals will die as long as we want to survive. Any choice we make causes death to animals.
A piece of meat on the plate is just more in your face, but vegetarian products cause indirect damage to animals as well.

It is how nature is. Death brings life.

[Time]

Lovely - You aren't to far fromt he truth. Nuts and palm, sunflower , peanut oils etc all have fats, but they aren't animal fats. IT isn't the same, they are Omega -3 fatty acids, not animal fats, which is the main source ( and most plentiful) of fat.

The list you showed actually isn't too far off ( from what Ive read). But even back then we had the incisors that were used for eating meat. We were hunter and gatherers, so we eat a mainly vegetarian diet, but meat was included more likely.

The thing is also..... when we started to Really eat meat, is when our evolution really took off. The fats, in the marrow, and the protein from the meat mad eit much easier for our bodies to survive. But this was just before we were classified as homo sapian..... meat made us what we are.... Our generalized diets is exactly what made our brains grow, and spread our species. Its also part of why all other branches of humans die, because most of them weren't as adaptable as us in food, and resources.


Also, id never disagree that animal farming is bad, but there is no worse then the other. They are pretty much both the same. You cant say its either or, because in my research ( as unbiased as i possibly can ), they are both as bad ( plant and animal) farming for the environment. Once again you have to watch out for biased information. There are more ties to vegetable farming causing the dead zones then manure, which is a natural product that can break down. Synthetic fertilizers dint ( you did see the part where fert furun of from food crops right?)

Theirs something you don't seem to get. To have animal farms, you HAVE to plant food crops to feed them. And for them, they also have to use veg farms. The veg farms don't need as much space as a dozen cows do, which is why they take more place, but that doesn't mean one is worse then the other, the go hand in hand with one another...

You are right about the protein in those foods. But the amount you would need to eat is astounding. ( BTW noodles are made with eggs).

Let us talk about the Inuit. Depending on how north they are, there are very very little plants available. And when they are its in a Very short t window of a month. That is when the animals have their young. The primary diet if the Inuit is seal and whale. A very... and i men Very minuscule amount of their diet is plants. The only reason they eat seaweed, is because thats the only source of vitamin d and c they can get up there. They literally have no choice. They need the fats fromt he animals ( and actually anyone that lives above 40 degrees latitude technically does too), to keep warm and survive the winter. They use it as oil for lamps as well. But id i had to remember the amount of meat they eat, its something like 90% of their diet is meat. They are healthy, happy people. OF course their needs are different then ours in some ways, but that doesn't mean they are really much different then us.. They have adapted slightly different, but if they can do it, so can we.


Your right as well our bodies aren't really adapted for eating meat... But that meat ONLY. Our bodies are adapted to an omnivorous diet, which means what ever is edible, we eat. Our teeth say that, the fact we don't have multiple stomachs. Veggies help us break down the meat in our diet.


Killing animals is totally in our instincts. Our reputation for hunting animals for fun, and murdering each other is a byproduct of that ( aside from other things i wont mention, i dotn wanna stear the convo away)

I agree with Crysatoes, i cant agree with any strict vegan diet. IT really isn't natural ( if it once was it isn't anymore, we aren't the same animals we were even 500 000 years ago). Just as the Inuit don't eat a strictly meat diet, no human in nature weould eat a strict 100% vege diet. Look at tribes in the amazon.. Most of their diet is what the land provides ( fruits nuts, berries etc), but they alway include meat... Humans in that situation don't eat as much meat due to the energy and time it takes to hunt. If they go out to hunt and cant get anything, theres nothing left to eat but plants.....

Humans are predators. The defining characteristic of predators is forward looking eyesight. Wolves, cats, bears, most birds, crocs allt heir eyes point in a forward way. They all eat meat.

Lovey that other list you posted is a bit off. WE aren't meat eaters, OR carnivores, we are OMNIVOROUS, which means we have traits from carnivores And herbivores. We were never meant to eat only either or for the long term. BTW, i don't discredit old information, but in terms of human evolution, we've learned so much in the last 30 years, we cannot really list that information as viable.


Its come to a point where we don't think about animals OR plants anymore. Its us, its our world , we are the masters of it ( the bible says so , so it bust be true right??? ** rolls eyes). We have such a separation from nature and everything in it, we think we are the kings of the world. We aren't. Fish outnumber us, insects triple our numbers..... and ultimately, vegan or not your good for those insects.


I think were getting away from the OP. The question was, is there any difference between eating meat and veges? No in reality there isn't, only in our individual minds there is a difference. You can dress it up how ever you want it, with science religion and personal prospects, but ultimately, its life, flat out plain and simple. Categorizing things is the reason were debating about this. We need to look beyond our own perceptions, and look t is as a whole. Plants make life possible for animals, which help plants by distributing their seeds. Its win win in nature because nature works together. Something humans have all but forgotten when it comes to nature...

[The Lost Seafarer]

Which animals ''feel pain and have emotions just like us''..?


Forgive me if I'm wrong... but don't all animals feel pain?
Otherwise, my dog wouldn't have yelped or hobbled around when he got cramp in his leg or banged into something (he was a rather large, rather daft greyhound).
Every human has a different pain threshold, as will every animal. That goes without saying.
I think in the case of my dog, he had a far lower pain threshold than your average Joe!

In my rather humble opinion, I see no great issue with consuming meat; provided you know where it's come from. People these days, particularly the younger generations, are painfully uneducated when it comes to food production.
If you are going to eat an animal, it is important to respect it.
You could buy free-range organic meats or visit your local butcher/game dealer where the quality is higher and you can feel more assured it's not come from some warehouse in some far off country where the animals have been force fed and pumped full of water.
Also, don't let things go to waste! As unappetising as it may sound, don't discard offal. Eat the (safe) parts that would otherwise go to waste. They can be tasty!
The same goes for vegetables. Buying local, organic produce means it's had less of an impact on the environment. I try to stick to British fruit & veg where I can so that my food hasn't had to travel half way around the world to get here. Buying organic or from a local market also means it isn't covered in those nasty pesticides too.

Haven't I rabbited on!

It is pretty much impossible to eat food that hasn't had some impact on animals or the environment.
But you can always do your part to lessen it.

[Chrysaetos]

Forgive me if I'm wrong... but don't all animals feel pain? Otherwise, my dog wouldn't have yelped or hobbled around when he got cramp in his leg or banged into something (he was a rather large, rather daft greyhound). Every human has a different pain threshold, as will every animal. That goes without saying. I think in the case of my dog, he had a far lower pain threshold than your average Joe!I'm with you when it comes to dogs but I can't agree on ''all animals'' as most animals are invertebrates.
It's not certain that they can experience pain and suffering like we can.

That's why I prefer to look at species separately, but then I'm called a speciecist, lol. :D (which we all are anyways)
In my rather humble opinion, I see no great issue with consuming meat; provided you know where it's come from. People these days, particularly the younger generations, are painfully uneducated when it comes to food production. If you are going to eat an animal, it is important to respect it. You could buy free-range organic meats or visit your local butcher/game dealer where the quality is higher and you can feel more assured it's not come from some warehouse in some far off country where the animals have been force fed and pumped full of water.
Also, don't let things go to waste! As unappetising as it may sound, don't discard offal. Eat the (safe) parts that would otherwise go to waste. They can be tasty! The same goes for vegetables. Buying local, organic produce means it's had less of an impact on the environment. I try to stick to British fruit & veg where I can so that my food hasn't had to travel half way around the world to get here. Buying organic or from a local market also means it isn't covered in those nasty pesticides too.Yes.. many good options there. That's why I prefer fish from my own country as well, where there are fishing rules and populations are frequently observed.

[The Lost Seafarer]

That's why I prefer fish from my own country as well, where there are fishing rules and populations are frequently observed.

Oh yes, there seems to be a lot of controversy surrounding fish farming these days! I'm not sure of the ins and outs, but they're on the news quite often.

The reasons behind my giving up meat are primarily to discover the health benefits and to save money! As someone who is 'flying the nest' for the first time, I can't afford to eat good quality ethical meats as regularly as I did.
Most likely the main reason folk eat value meat is because of how pricey free range is. Two chicken breasts will cost you between £4 and £6, where as a whole free range chicken will set you back £9+.
By sticking to vegetarian options, I can ensure I'm not consuming mistreated animals and by an entire meal and more for the same price.
It would be a lot easier to eat better were it less expensive. But the price of free range meat is worth it!

Up until recently, I led a pretty carnivorous diet, and it just wasn't good.
I never thought I'd see the day where I was eating lentil rolls and tofu! :D

[mahakali]

just want to say how impressed i am w you lovely, only 15, wow!

[Roselove]

plants don't have a centeral nervous system, they cannot feel pain big difference. I have to eat meat bc of iron issues and diet restrictions but if that wasn't an issue i wouldn't, i don't feel comfortable with animals being slaughtered just so i have food to eat.

[Lovely]

I agree with Crysatoes, i cant agree with any strict vegan diet. IT really isn't natural ( if it once was it isn't anymore, we aren't the same animals we were even 500 000 years ago). Just as the Inuit don't eat a strictly meat diet, no human in nature weould eat a strict 100% vege diet. Look at tribes in the amazon.. Most of their diet is what the land provides ( fruits nuts, berries etc), but they alway include meat... Humans in that situation don't eat as much meat due to the energy and time it takes to hunt. If they go out to hunt and cant get anything, theres nothing left to eat but plants.....


Why does it mater if its natural? If you are going to base all your
decisions and judgments on rather or not something is natural
that you shouldn't be reading this right now since it's on a computer
or maybe cell phone. Computers/cell phones aren't natural. You shouldn't
live it a house, houses aren't natural so live in a cave, if you are dying
don't go to a hospital because if they save your life that would be unnatural.
Don't shave or bathe in a shower because that is unnatural. Don't use a
toilet,they're man made and it's much more natural to go in a field.
Don't have any domesticate pets. Domestication isn't natural. Oh and if you eat meat
do it the natural way, raw and bloody. Cooking it, seasoning it- all unnatural.

And since it's okay to do something if it is natural than by that logic
it is okay to murder (we've been doing it for millions years! Therefore its is okay.)
and commit cannibalism since it is natural in the animal kingdom.
Many animals eat their children, therefore we can.

[Chrysaetos]

Computers/cell phones aren't natural. You shouldn't
live it a house, houses aren't natural so live in a cave, if you are dying
don't go to a hospital because if they save your life that would be unnatural. Don't shave or bathe in a shower because that is unnatural. Don't use a toilet,they're man made and it's much more natural to go in a field. All of these things are natural because humans have made it their own thanks to their intelligence.Don't have any domesticate pets. Domestication isn't natural. But the vegan can't have a cat or dog, as the beasties are meat eaters!:D Does that match?Oh and if you eat meat do it the natural way, raw and bloody. Cooking it, seasoning it- all unnatural.No need for that as we can cook it. Raw fish btw. is good.

[Time]

Lovley your misconsctuing what im saying. Im not trying to be jugmental. And yes I try to make my desicions as natural as I can. Houses are an adaptation on the cave, computers and cellphones are our evolution on communication, Hospitals are totaly different ( aside from the medication they give, which fyi i VERY rarely take) thats an evolution of our natural medical care, Shaving and bathing in water is natural, just an upgrade so we dont all have to go to the river, Domestication is borderline, but its still natrual animals, not fake ones.

Cooking, you may have an argument there, but the food is real, and so are the spices (except if you use msg... which should stand for Massive Stupidhuman Greed LOL)

Murder isnt really natural. Some species it is, but murder as we do it is unatrual. Even animals liek chimps of slaughter intruders, eat what they killed and dont let it waste. As far as we know humans are the only animal who kills for pleasure.

Technicaly it wouldnt be natural for humans to eat their children, becasue its not natural for our species. Dogs and cats do it ( the weak ones or s till bourne), bt humans as far as I know dont.

By rights, as long as you eat real food its natural, but even your own reaserch as shown that over the last 500 000 years humans are generalists, and our evoultion into homo sapiens, is due to in part by the weather, and our diets ( which is cooking meat and a varied diet). Our natural diet as humans, at this stage in our evolution is omnivorious, with a more depandance on veggies, but we evolved to eat both. Our physical adaptations such as a single stomach, our icissors, our eye position. The same goes for almost all apes. They are generalists who usualy eat veggies, but are obiously adapted to eat meat as well, and do on every available occasion.

As far as shaving...... im many native traditions, its wrong to cut your hair. And as well in some ( iroqois, my bloodline), its traditional fo the males to shave off ALL body hair, and depending on tribe, even your hair ( the mohawk tribes actualy did have mohawks LOL)..

Ung...... all fish is nasty...... especialy raw HAHHAH.

Lovley, have you unleased your wrath on me in the form of a snowstorm? Its april and im getting 20cm of snow .... ( thats a joke btw LOL)

[breath]

Good question StarmanX7,

Personnally I don't see any difference.

I believe the natural sustenance for the soul and even for the physical body used to be to draw energy from the One Source of the universe.

It was only when souls began to physically manifest in the earth plane and feed upon their environment, that they became unable to draw from the universe and became dependant upon the physical nourishment.

There have been a couple of instances in past years where people have claimed to have regained the ability to not eat (from the physical) and still exist. Science is quick to quash this idea and say that "they must be sneaking food" or somesuch.

Plants do indeed feel pain. Many experiments with various plants hooked up to lie detectors have proven over and over that if you stand next to a plant with a knife in your hand, and project to the plant with your thoughts that you are going to cut off a branch or a leaf or somesuch, the plant will register a strong reaction to what you are thinking.

The same plant will respond in a positive way if you talk to them in soothing tones and assure the plant with your thoughts that you will not harm it and that it is well loved.

The buddhist view is that animals have their own level of conciousness, and that it is wrong to kill them for food, and that we as humans should work to overcome our dependency on such food sources. They believe that once we become aware of the suffering and injustice of what we do to animals, but continue to do it anyway, we incur karma. Bit of a worry that.

Personally, I'm an omnivore, and I think a bit of oregano on a pepperoni pizza would go down rather well at the moment.

Regards
Merlin6

Hi Merlin

The part where you're talking about plants feeling pain. First thing, the scientific community laugh at the idea of putting something that measures pulse and human nervous system rections on a plant that doesn't have a nervous system... and so do I.

Plants don't feel pain, it's actually been proven without a shadow of a doubt. It's a scientific fact. You're talking about one experiment where they tried to measure the reactions of a plant with a lie detector machine for a joke and they found out certain things caused a reaction in the plant. In later genuine scientific researches they found that plants change because of environmental situations, not emotional or physical feelings. Just like a match catches fire when it's heated enough - if they was wired up to a lie detection machine you'd see a reaction too.

as Paul Eckmann explains in his both 'Telling Lies' a lie detection test can only display data, it doesn't have any insight into what the individual is feeling. It's almost like binary. so for all you know, even if the original test WAS genuine, it still wouldn't mean plants feel anything it would just mean they react. they could be reacting positively for all you know.

so as for your opinion, I'm afraid it's not true. a plant doesn't have a cerebral cortex or anything equivilant and so cannot feel fear, pain or anything else.

hope that's cleared it up for you.

[Time]

They cant feel pain, but that doesnt mean that they ARENT aware. IF anything that research has proven that plants react to their enviroment, which would more then likley be to us, as well as everything around it.

They know when they are in danger, they know when they are being cut down. Im not disagreeing with you, plants as far as we know cant feel pain, but th efact that they react to fire, and your thoughts of lighting it on fire. Being aware that your being killed or attacked is just as bad.

Of course plants dont have the sort of pain recepters as us, plants ARENT animals. But that deosnt mean that they arent on the same level. The only REAL difference between the 2, is the fact that plants dont have a nervous system like us, and dont have the same adaptations as us. But they still move, eat, rest, perspire, reproduce, have a sence of awareness, defend themselves, warn other plants, are in a homeostasis with itself, and everything around it, communicates to other plants ( and theoreticaly animals). Science has PROVEn they are aware, as to what degree is debatable, but even then how can they be aware, if they dont have a brain? This means that we are missing something, possibly something that we can quite comprehend.

This doesnt mean its ok to eat plants and not meat, jsut due to the fact plants "cant feel pain", if we geneticaly created cows with no face, and no pain receptors does that mean its ok to kill it? This sort of veiw is wrong IMO. We cant justify eating plants, then in a similar situation say its not ok to east something. Thats a double standard.

The vey fact that we try to justify eating other life, and then say eating another life if wrong, is our humanity contradicting itself. ITs our habit of thinking humans are above everything else, and animals are above plants. NOTHING in nature is above or below anything else, thats OUR perception. VEganism vs Meat is a HUMAN perception. All animals or even plants dont have this concept, its us, and that doesnt make it right.

IT proves that many of us dont have a true concept of life, if we can try to jsutify killing other life, while eating others is wrong. We DONT have any sort of care in the world about plants. We fail to undetrstand them because they arent liek is. So we disregard plant life, the very reason why we are here, we choose what lives and what dies, we burn whole forests to farm our food and crops. I just cant understand how we can seperate life like this, when its all here, to support eachother.

[Roselove]

^it's not an issue of hierachy, it's about minimizing pain/suffering as much as possible, plants etc don't feel pain so it's the more ethical option. As far as plants being aware goes, that's an interesting and very valid point, i always wonder if they have souls, i think they pick up psychic vibrations and like all living beings have chemical responses to stress.

[Time]

Ya but the point of the matter is, we elevate certain things because " they are like us"... i cant understand how anyone cant see whats wrong with that. IT sint about not casueing harm or pain, its about not causeing harm or pain to anything animal, which just isnt right.

If we had the same setements we did with plants as we do animals we might actualy have a decent chunk of primary forest left, but there is almost nothing in comparison to what it was. We dont think of the insects, or the plants, or bacteria and small organisms that make life possible. Without insects we woudl have no plant based food, not to mention all the worlds ecosystems would fall apart. The same goes with the the bacteria that decomposes fallen plant and animal matter, without them wed be sky high in dead animals and plants. The only reason why we have oxygen is because of photosynthesis (plants makin their own food form sunlight).

Just because they dont feel pain doesnt mean you can justify saying" its wrong to eat meat, eat everything that grows", life is life and no human perception on it is going to change that fact. No science, or human interpretation is going to make that change, because nature doesnt move to our whim.

[NightSpirit]

Ya but the point of the matter is, we elevate certain things because " they are like us"... i cant understand how anyone cant see whats wrong with that. IT sint about not casueing harm or pain, its about not causeing harm or pain to anything animal, which just isnt right.

If we had the same setements we did with plants as we do animals we might actualy have a decent chunk of primary forest left, but there is almost nothing in comparison to what it was. We dont think of the insects, or the plants, or bacteria and small organisms that make life possible. Without insects we woudl have no plant based food, not to mention all the worlds ecosystems would fall apart. The same goes with the the bacteria that decomposes fallen plant and animal matter, without them wed be sky high in dead animals and plants. The only reason why we have oxygen is because of photosynthesis (plants makin their own food form sunlight).

Just because they dont feel pain doesnt mean you can justify saying" its wrong to eat meat, eat everything that grows", life is life and no human perception on it is going to change that fact. No science, or human interpretation is going to make that change, because nature doesnt move to our whim.

I agree with your line of thought here Time :D

[Roselove]

[quote=Time]Ya but the point of the matter is, we elevate certain things because " they are like us"... i cant understand how anyone cant see whats wrong with that. IT sint about not casueing harm or pain, its about not causeing harm or pain to anything animal, which just isnt right.




i'm going to reitarate what i said in the post above, there is no hierachy, i've never heard any vegetarian stating that plants are somehow lower spieces lol or that they don't have worth, it's an ethics issue bc of the lack of pain.

[Time]

THey dont have to, that "ethic of lack of pain" as you put it proves my point. It doesnt matter if it deosnt feel pain or not.

Ill bring back the question i said earlier:

If a human cant feel pain, or a cow, chicken or anything, is it then ok to eat it?

[Roselove]

do plants have the same consciousness as humans and animals? and i don't mean lower when i say that, i mean different

to answer your question no it doesn't make it ok, but if your only options are consuming something living, which way would minimize the suffering more?

[Time]

OF course they dont, they arent animals. Theyve been around longer them most animals, they do less enviromental harm then animals, and you dont need total cognitive abilities to be concidered life. And once again that deosnt make it any better or less then anything else. As soon as you see things as seperate, you totaly loose an understanding of things work in nature.

ANd definetly not LOL, life needs life to live. And i would agree that sufferign should be limited, and respected, but it hsodl go both ways.

IF its not ok to eat a human that doesnt feel pain, then why can you use that excuse to the lowering of plants ? ITs no real different then belittling because of race, except its species.

[Lovely]

All of these things are natural because humans have made it their own thanks to their intelligence.But the vegan can't have a cat or dog, as the beasties are meat eaters!:D Does that match?No need for that as we can cook it. Raw fish btw. is good.

There is other domesticated pets
that are herbivores. Guineas pigs and rabbits are both herbivores.

I never said anything about cats and dogs.

[Chrysaetos]

Ya but the point of the matter is, we elevate certain things because " they are like us"... i cant understand how anyone cant see whats wrong with that. Because it's a natural thing for us to do. We are humans, not gods.There is other domesticated pets
that are herbivores. Guineas pigs and rabbits are both herbivores. I never said anything about cats and dogs.So as a vegan you only choose herbivore pets?

[Time]

Lovley

I worked in a pet store for 2 years. Many of the animals we attribute as being "herbavores" ( pets i should say), arent. Hamsters, Guinea pigs and even rabits on the rare occasion, are cannibalistic. There have been many times ive walked in the store to find a mini charlie mansonesque " murder scene" in the hamster or guinea pig cage. The same goes with birds:

Lovebirds, parakeets, cockatiels... and some small parrots are " herbavores" yet, ive seen them cannibilize eachother. The same goes with fish and reptiles ( theres no real herbavorious fish, but ive seen "peaceful" fish who eat plants and insects eat eachother).

belive it or not, there are no "real" herbavores in our pets, theyll all go cannibalistic.

[Lovely]

So as a vegan you only choose herbivore pets?

No, I can have an omnivore pet. Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products.

And time if they are committing cannibalism they must be
put under mass amount of stress and starvation.

I have seen bunnies and guinea pigs live together in pet stores
and cages together without killing and eating each other.
I never even heard of that happening until today.
Just because there has been herbivores that have been driven
to cannibalism does not mean they aren't herbivores.

I have had 3 guinea pigs (one was a male and had to be separated
so he won't reproduce with the females). But the two female guinea pigs
lived together and never even bite each other, as far as I know. Let alone
eat each other. They loved vegetables and never one ate meat.

[Lovely]

THey dont have to, that "ethic of lack of pain" as you put it proves my point. It doesnt matter if it deosnt feel pain or not.

Ill bring back the question i said earlier:

If a human cant feel pain, or a cow, chicken or anything, is it then ok to eat it?

It's more than just pain. They feel fear,have all 5 senses, feel sadness ,
mourn the lose of children and friends etc.

The thing is there is a big IF. If animals/humans didn't feel pain. It is just a hypothetical
situation and does not portray reality. In the real world animals/humans DO feel pain.
They scream, try to run, scratch/bite, anything they can to run away from death and pain.
I've seen a seal during Canada's seal hunt. It walked up to a dead seal body.
And ,I swear on the bible, It started crying.
If you don't believe me watch this video at 6:38. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJuft_WO_zI&feature=related)

Pigs, creatures with the intelligence of a 3 year old child, get teeth ripped out, tails
cut off, testicles ripped off- all with out pain killers.
Chickens are trapped up in tiny cages, have their beaks ripped off and can even go insane
(just like humans can get from being trapped) from being locked up in such tiny cages.
Cows have limbs ripped off, throats slit, all while they are conscious.

You can't honestly think it's okay to treat an animal this way unless you have absolutely no empathy.
And I know "What if we treat them humanely and respect them?"
Again, that's a big, unrealistic IF. In reality for meat eating to continue 50 billion animals must die every year.
It is extremely unrealistic that all those animals will be treated with respect and live a
happy life. In the real world few, if any, will be.

And meat eating harms plant too. Some people are vegan for the environment.

Meat is horrible for the plants/environmental:

http://inthefray.org/content/view/2407/209/

http://www.drishtikone.com/content/meat-eating-hurts-human-and-environment-health

http://www.teenink.com/hot_topics/environment/article/141837/Meat-An-Environment-Killer/

http://singaporecats.multiply.com/journal/item/513/Eating_more_meat_hurts_the_earth39s_environment._G o_vegetarian


And I really hope you watch the documentary Earthlings.
It's a real eye opener. Plus it's free.
Please watch! I beg you to.
http://www.documentarywire.com/earthlings

[Chrysaetos]

No, I can have an omnivore pet. Veganism is the practice of eliminating the use by human beings of non-human animal products. But you're the one who needs to buy food for the omnivore pet.

I thought so, this issue for you is having a piece of meat on your own plate, but when other products cause indirect suffering to animals there is no problem?In reality for meat eating to continue 50 billion animals must die every year. It is extremely unrealistic that all those animals will be treated with respect and live a happy life. In the real world few, if any, will be.The numbers are that big because there is overpopulation and a hamburger culture.Meat is horrible for the plants/environmental:All depends of what meat we talk about, how it is produced etc. It's about specifics.

[Time]

Lovley - I know... I was actualy just as shocked as you were. Let me say that if there were any bad practices there I would be more then happy to elaborate, but in this situation there wasnt ( the company screwed me over pretty good LOL). The kennel technichian was the best we had in the company, the woman cried when something died... she cared. Yet it happened, usualy with mice, hamseters and gerbals, but on the rare occasion guiniea pigs, and even on the rarer occasion, rabbits.

You have to understand Lovey, while i would never disagree that animals feel "emotions", or even more clearly, they are connected to their young, and eachother to some degree, but they, just as us have instincts that they must uphold. They have no concept of vegan or cannibalism or anything of the like. They eat what their instincts tell them to ( to be fair some animals only liked certain things LOL).

I can understand if you never heard of that before. WHen you go and buy a guinea pig, would you buy it if they told you theres a chance that theyd eat eachother? Pet stores usualy tell you what you wanna hear so youll take home the animal.

Also....... There were kinds that came into the store, and stole a bunch of gerbals. I wont go into detail about what happened, because even i get disturbed by it, lets just say they cruley killed them. Disrepecful, cruel, wrong ... and every other word to describe it is fitting, but one of the kids was a vegan/vegetarian....

In regards to the seal hunt...... In VERY conflicted with this, becasue of course, who wants to hurt animals, let alone BABY animals right? But the majority of the hunters up there, are inuit, and thats their way of life. ITs no different, then if someone thought you were being cruel to plants for only eating a vegan diet. ITs how they are, its how they adapted to their enviroment, and they would not have exsisted with out it. They dont overkil the seal to the point of it being extinct, and they dotn waste ANYTHING from the seals. ID much rather someone use the whole thing, then just strip it of its fur and leave it there.... ITs about respect.


And yes Lovey, thers many situations where humans are incapable of feeling pain, yet we dont eat them. What about coma patients? OR that nerve disease where they cant feel pain? What about quadropoligics?


Lovley, NO ONE on this thread has stated mistreating animals as fair, and the contrary, many of us agree that the way we treat our meat is wrong, the treatment of animals is wrong, but one again its half the picture. What about the forests and millions of species of plants that get burned and torn down for crop/pastureland, or a mini mall, or factories, for logging ...... theres more to the world then just animals.... Here, there is a bible quote id like to share, which i USUALY dont do out of the context of a biblical conversation, but its MORe then fitting...

Romans 14: 1-23

As for the one who is weak in faith, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. One person believes he may eat anything, while the weak person eats only vegetables. Let not the one who eats despise the one who abstains, and let not the one who abstains pass judgment on the one who eats, for God has welcomed him. Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. ...

[Lovely]

But you're the one who needs to buy food for the omnivore pet.

I thought so, this issue for you is having a piece of meat on your own plate, but when other products cause indirect suffering to animals there is no problem?

I admit it is a moral dilemma. I don't know how good it is
for a dog/cat to have an vegan diet, but I don't want to
contribute the meat industry. Really, I don't have much say since my parents
buy them the food.

When I'm on my own i may adopt a dog and/or cat and consult a
Veterinarian or a animal nutritionist about a vegan diet for them.

[Time]

Lovley please never do that... Its bad enough we make them eat the stuff they do....

[Lovely]

Lovley please never do that... Its bad enough we make them eat the stuff they do....


I still rather consult several veterinarians/dog nutritionist before I do or don't do that.

And if they all are against it then I'm getting a French lop bunny!
They're cute creatures that are the size of a small dog but are herbivores so
I won't have to feed them meat.

[Time]

honestly i was never a "rabbit" person, but there were a few that caught my eye at the store.. There pretty personable, love carrots, they eat them faster then grating them!

[Chrysaetos]

A cat is a carnivore so it needs meat, and meat should also be the staple food for a dog.
Veggies don't give them enough protein and iron, and grains make them fat. They need mostly animal protein for optimal health.

Is forcing meater pets on a vegan/vegetarian diet not putting man above nature?
Imo, if a vegan wants to stick close to his ideals, he should get a canary or rabbit..

[Zero]

Or a tortoise.

[Lovely]

A cat is a carnivore so it needs meat, and meat should also be the staple food for a dog.
Veggies don't give them enough protein and iron, and grains make them fat. They need mostly animal protein for optimal health.

Is forcing meater pets on a vegan/vegetarian diet not putting man above nature?
Imo, if a vegan wants to stick close to his ideals, he should get a canary or rabbit..

I know, it seems cruel to give a vegan diet to a cat. Maybe a dog, but
idk about a cat. But I'm not a veterinarian so idk...

And I can't help but think you guys are against plant eaters like rabbits, guinea pigs etc
and even vegan humans.
I admit, it's a bit hurtful.

[NightSpirit]

I know, it seems cruel to give a vegan diet to a cat. Maybe a dog, but
idk about a cat. But I'm not a veterinarian so idk...

And I can't help but think you guys are against plant eaters like rabbits, guinea pigs etc
and even vegan humans.
I admit, it's a bit hurtful.

You are not a victim Lovely! Move away from that frame of mind. I've read these posts and honestly, everyone has bent over backwards to listen to you and reply in very polite ways. Yet now you're pointing the finger at them again.

Get over it and do what you feel you have to for your own self and leave others to do what they choose. This thread just keeps going round and round without resolve. Sorry, I try not to get cranky and have a high tolerance level, but this is ridiculous. Go get your herbivore pet but dont subject meat-eating animals to a diet that will kill them....is that not being cruel in itself?

[Lovely]

I know, it seems cruel to give a vegan diet to a cat. Maybe a dog, but
idk about a cat. But I'm not a veterinarian so idk...

And I can't help but think you guys are against plant eaters like rabbits, guinea pigs etc
and even vegan humans.
I admit, it's a bit hurtful.

You are not a victim Lovely! Move away from that frame of mind. I've read these posts and honestly, everyone has bent over backwards to listen to you and reply in very polite ways. Yet now you're pointing the finger at them again.

Get over it and do what you feel you have to for your own self and leave others to do what they choose. This thread just keeps going round and round without resolve. Sorry, I try not to get cranky and have a high tolerance level, but this is ridiculous. Go get your herbivore pet but dont subject meat-eating animals to a diet that will kill them....is that not being cruel in itself?

I never said I was a victim and never said I was going to make a meat eating
animal to a vegan diet.

[NightSpirit]

[quote=NightSpirit]

I never said I was a victim and never said I was going to make a meat eating
animal to a vegan diet.


When I'm on my own i may adopt a dog and/or cat and consult a
Veterinarian or a animal nutritionist about a vegan diet for them.


Whats that then?

I know, it seems cruel to give a vegan diet to a cat. Maybe a dog, but
idk about a cat. But I'm not a veterinarian so idk...


and that?



And I can't help but think you guys are against plant eaters like rabbits, guinea pigs etc
and even vegan humans.
I admit, it's a bit hurtful


Not a victim mentality?

[Lovely]

[quote=Lovely]



Whats that then?



and that?




Not a victim mentality?

No, I wouldn't make them go on a vegan diet unless I got a professional's
okay.

And all I did was share my feelings. Sorry.
I think it was such a horrible thing to do.

[Chrysaetos]

I know, it seems cruel to give a vegan diet to a cat. Maybe a dog, but idk about a cat. But I'm not a veterinarian so idk...
And I can't help but think you guys are against plant eaters like rabbits, guinea pigs etc and even vegan humans. I admit, it's a bit hurtful.I know first hand that too much grains can make a dog fat, and I reckon that a vegan/vegetarian diet would mean the dog has to eat more grains to get enough energy (veggies alone won't do). Animal protein is far better for optimal health, it gives them what they need. The occasional apple is good too. I don't trust any veterinarian who says cats and dogs can live without trouble on a meat-free diet.

btw. I'm not against plant/seed eaters, as I have canaries and pigeons!:tongue: Though I prefer meater pets because they are smart, playful, and naughty.

[Lovely]

I know first hand that too much grains can make a dog fat, and I reckon that a vegan/vegetarian diet would mean the dog has to eat more grains to get enough energy (veggies alone won't do). Animal protein is far better for optimal health, it gives them what they need. Sometimes an apple or cooked egg is good too. I don't trust any veterinarian who says cats and dogs can live without trouble on a meat-free diet.

btw. I'm not against plant eaters, as I have canaries and pigeons!:tongue: Though I prefer meater pets because they are smart, playful, and naughty.

See this is the moral dilemma I face with a dog and cat! lol. I don't
want to support the meat industry. But my pets need meat. Right now
I just feed them what my parents give me to feed them.
I guess I'll just stick with herbivores from now on lol.

And I guess I just misunderstood,sorry lol

[sound]

Its interesting .... animals eat each other and don't seem to suffer a moral dilemma ...

[Lovely]

Its interesting .... animals eat each other and don't seem to suffer a moral dilemma ...

Well, of course not. They go with instincts. Not logic, reason and morals.
Well, chimps have been shown to have morals but I don't have
a pet chimp to worry about lol

[NightSpirit]

[quote=NightSpirit]

No, I wouldn't make them go on a vegan diet unless I got a professional's
okay.

And all I did was share my feelings. Sorry.
I think it was such a horrible thing to do.

Well gee, cmon lovely...lets use a little common sense here. Would it be okay to go ask the vet if i can put my budgerigar on a meat diet? Thats all im saying. You said you felt we were hurtful, but this thread was started in the first place by a vegan who felt victimised by meat-eaters. Those meat-eaters have bent over backwards to reply politely and calmly in the face of what accusations are being thrown out at them and then you turn round and say "you guys are so hurtful"...what is that?!!! If you can't handle the heat in the kitchen then don't enter it.

I can have as pleasant a conversation with anyone, given the opportunity to not be put down by another. thanks

[Lovely]

[quote=Lovely]

Well gee, cmon lovely...lets use a little common sense here. Would it be okay to go ask the vet if i can put my budgerigar on a meat diet? Thats all im saying. You said you felt we were hurtful, but this thread was started in the first place by a vegan who felt victimised by meat-eaters. Those meat-eaters have bent over backwards to reply politely and calmly in the face of what accusations are being thrown out at them and then you turn round and say "you guys are so hurtful"...what is that?!!! If you can't handle the heat in the kitchen then don't enter it.

I can have as pleasant a conversation with anyone, given the opportunity to not be put down by another. thanks

I wasn't talking about all meat eaters when I said that.
It was a misunderstanding and I apologized.
No big deal really.

[sound]

Well, chimps have been shown to have morals but I don't have
a pet chimp to worry about lol

Mmm who knows ... its also interesting that animals dont feel the need to keep pets lol

[Time]

Lovely no one is being hurtful. We are all doing exactly what your doing, giving our opinion, and sharing information of what you know. There is a very big difference between a serious conversation, and someone being hurtful. No one has said ( kill all animals kill al plants KILL EVERYTHING MUHAHAHAH) lol.

Im glad theres people that care like you do, but if theres one thing I can tell you for sure, without going to see a vet is that NO pets should be on a diet, that is against their natural diets. Cats are carnivores almsot 100%, they eat grass to aid in digesting, and to help them vomet ( same with dogs). When they play with their stuffed mouse(s) and shake them, thats their carnivorous instincts kicking in. Their teeth are adapted to a high meat diet.

Dogs are slightly different. They are more opertunists, they eat lots of different foods, but still have a high dependance on meat. This is why dogs go so crazy for bones, they want the fat ( marrow in the bone).

I dont think because you are vegan, you shouldnt have a meat eating pet. Of course, i DO agree that we should do as little as possible to aid the meat companies ( no one on this thread has denied how they treat animals), but in this situation some logic has to be used. While i do think of everything as equil in regards to soemthing having the right to live, I also understand that animals dont have the same choice as vegan or not. I cant judge an animal for what it eats no more then i can really judge any person for what they eat, they have no concept of cruelty to animals, because animals arent cruel, its a human ( MAYBE ape) problem, NOT a general animal problem.

Belive it or not lovely, I LOVE animals. I feed the birds outside everyday 9 during the summer), I leave food out for stray cats and dogs, I let the squirrels do their thing in my yard ( begrudgingly, they dig up flower bulbs and plant random ones LOL), My cat is spoiled we warm her blanket up in the dryer when its cold, give her fresh food 3 times a day, and even bring her grass ( shes an indoor cat). We even take her outside for a quick walk in the summer in the back yard.

I love plants too, I have over 100 house plants, and garden outside. I have over 100 pots of things to go outside this year, and am slowly trying a practice called permaculture. Natural gardening, letting nature do the work for you, while having a garden that works for you, while inviting all aspects of nature into my yard. That is growing my own food and ornamentals. Basicaly its forest gardening ( you make a pseudo forest in your yard).

Btw, my cat was rescued fromt he street. She was 2 weeks old ( barley had her eyes open), and could fit in my hand. My sisters friend found her in the middle of one of the buisiest streets in town. She saved them from being hit by a car ( she almost got hit in the process). Now shes the master of the house..

Did you read that bible quote I put? Even the bible says its ok to eat what ever you want, as long as you arent cruel, and understand that it died for you to eat, plant OR animal. As long as you have the respect for the people who dont eat like you.

[The Lost Seafarer]

Putting a pet of an unnatural and unhealthy diet to fit your own morals is utterly disgusting, bordering on animal cruelty.
You should not enforce your opinions on another, especially not upon an animal who cannot react or speak up!
There is no problem if you feed them healthy, good quality foods and avoid the value brands.
This is one thing I feel really quite strongly about.
I remember hearing a story of a couple who had a cat and placed it on a vegetarian diet. Having asked my mum about it, it turns out the cat had lived not far from where I stay. It was weak and dragged its hind legs because it lacked any protein and the current nutrients from proper growth and health.
Of course, the cat was promptly taken from them and rehomed by another woman.

As a vegetarian, I'm all for a meat free diet but I would never try and 'convert' anyone to it and I would never put that upon an animal!
It's like taking plant foods away from a vegetarian and forcing them to eat a meat only diet. It's unkind and unhealthy.

Phew! :smile:

[Lovely]

Putting a pet of an unnatural and unhealthy diet to fit your own morals is utterly disgusting, bordering on animal cruelty.
You should not enforce your opinions on another, especially not upon an animal who cannot react or speak up!
There is no problem if you feed them healthy, good quality foods and avoid the value brands.
This is one thing I feel really quite strongly about.
I remember hearing a story of a couple who had a cat and placed it on a vegetarian diet. Having asked my mum about it, it turns out the cat had lived not far from where I stay. It was weak and dragged its hind legs because it lacked any protein and the current nutrients from proper growth and health.
Of course, the cat was promptly taken from them and rehomed by another woman.

As a vegetarian, I'm all for a meat free diet but I would never try and 'convert' anyone to it and I would never put that upon an animal!
It's like taking plant foods away from a vegetarian and forcing them to eat a meat only diet. It's unkind and unhealthy.

Phew! :smile:

I agree and decided not to and I never have done it.
It was just an idea I had and after research found out it
was not possible.

Though the idea may not be as bad as you would think at least dog wise.

A dog that lived off a vegan diet lived to be 29 years old :O
That dog made record for the longest living dog on record in the world.
So I wouldn't be so quick to judge it "abuse, killing the animal, unhealthy, cruel etc."

Google: "Bramble Dog".
http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209/articles/020918a.htm
(That page was made when the dog was only 27 at the time)

Edit:
PLEASE no one twist this post making it seem that I'm going to give my dog
a vegan diet because of this.
I'm not, okay?

[earthy]

Plants and humans are species too.
Many vegetarian products cause deforestation. Examples: Rice, bananas, soybeans, palm oil, etc. True, but you said people can't survive on meat alone. Clearly they can.

So let's take the Inuit, who live in the frigid Arctic and his diet is almost exclusively animal flesh and the blood of animals and fish. His environment gives him no other recourse for survival than to eat heavily on meat products... true, he can survive on a meat only diet; however, these people have a short life span--they age prematurely and suffer from bad livers, back kidneys, stiff joints and in many instances skin diseases.

Fact is meat is very heavy in that very toxic acid known as uric acid. Meat is mostly protein but also carries in it, visible and invisible fats (the waxy substance called cholesterol), also the waste that was in circulation through the animal's body at the time of slaugther, not to mention the many viruses and germs of the various animal diseases. Meat is NOT a health food!

[Chrysaetos]

So let's take the Inuit, who live in the frigid Arctic and his diet is almost exclusively animal flesh and the blood of animals and fish. His environment gives him no other recourse for survival than to eat heavily on meat products... true, he can survive on a meat only diet; however, these people have a short life span--they age prematurely and suffer from bad livers, back kidneys, stiff joints and in many instances skin diseases.

Fact is meat is very heavy in that very toxic acid known as uric acid. Meat is mostly protein but also carries in it, visible and invisible fats (the waxy substance called cholesterol), also the waste that was in circulation through the animal's body at the time of slaugther, not to mention the many viruses and germs of the various animal diseases. Meat is NOT a health food!You are taking a population who lives (almost) exclusively on meat to make a point that meat is unhealthy. It's as black-white as it can get. We humans are omnivores.. so logically we do quite well on a balanced diet that consists of both plants and flesh.

Whether meat is 'very toxic' depends on the species. Also, fat is not 'bad'.. in fact we need it. Just because many people eat large amounts of meat (especially fat red meat in the west) doesn't mean that fat is bad or that meat is bad. If meat was not a healthy food for humans you and me wouldn't be having this conversation. :o

I do not support a carnivore diet nor a plant-only diet. I don't see how your post relates to mine but that is okay nonetheless.. :)

[Scibat]

You are taking a population who lives exclusively on meat to make a point that meat is unhealthy. It's as black-white as it can get. We humans are omnivores.. so logically we do quite well on a balanced diet that consists of both plants and flesh.

Whether meat is 'very toxic' depends on the species. Fat is not 'bad', in fact we need it. Just because many people eat large amounts of meat (especially fat red meat in the west) doesn't mean that fat is bad or that meat is bad. If meat was not a healthy food for humans you and me wouldn't be having this conversation.

I do not support a carnivore diet nor a plant-only diet. I don't see how your post was of relevance to mine but that is okay nonetheless..

If meat is so unhealthy I wonder why my medical doctor (not a quack or holistic doctor) advised me to do the *Atkins diet to lose weight? Not years ago, this was on my last visit about two weeks ago.

I was a little alarmed when I heard my doc suggest this, so I asked about all the supposed health dangers Atkins is supposed to create. He said that they were overblown and he himself uses the diet when he needs to drop some weight. I pressed the issue because I am diabetic, and his only concern is I watch my blood sugar so it doesn't crash.

I have been on his diet for 2 weeks now, and feel 1000% better than I did prior and have dropped 4-lbs. already. I do understand respect a vegetarian lifestyle, and might even follow it myself if I was a veggie lover.

But I seriously have doubts about the ideas presented by others here that seem to indicate that meat eaters are some kinds of spiritual neanderthals. That kind of thinking is what creates hostility in the first place. Live and let live, you eat your veggies in peace and I'll eat my meat, and do likewise.

*For those unaware Atkins is a high protein/low cab diet that stresses eating lots of meat, cheese and other low carb/high protein foods as a means of promoting weight loss and better health.

[Chrysaetos]

If meat is so unhealthy I wonder why my medical doctor (not a quack or holistic doctor) advised me to do the *Atkins diet to lose weight? Not years ago, this was on my last visit about two weeks ago.
I was a little alarmed when I heard my doc suggest this, so I asked about all the supposed health dangers Atkins is supposed to create. He said that they were overblown and he himself uses the diet when he needs to drop some weight. I pressed the issue because I am diabetic, and his only concern is I watch my blood sugar so it doesn't crash.My mom is following a similar diet and she lost weight with ease. We've become so accustomed to our grain (and sugar) culture that it's hard to imagine life without it. If all junkfood restaurants had to give up their bread, perhaps that would mean their ends. I believe the hamburger culture would be nothing without its bread. Almost all the junkfood, from hamburgers to cookies, is accompanied by our appetite for carbs and sugars.

Apparently.. going back to hunting/gathering is no longer an option with our numbers, and with so much wilderness converted to farmland, and our civilisation. Okay with me. We have to do it with what we have.. animals and plants. I believe the focus should be on different animals and plants. Less red meat and grains.. more fowl and greens..

[Zero]

So let's take the Inuit, who live in the frigid Arctic and his diet is almost exclusively animal flesh and the blood of animals and fish. His environment gives him no other recourse for survival than to eat heavily on meat products... true, he can survive on a meat only diet; however, these people have a short life span--they age prematurely and suffer from bad livers, back kidneys, stiff joints and in many instances skin diseases.

Fact is meat is very heavy in that very toxic acid known as uric acid. Meat is mostly protein but also carries in it, visible and invisible fats (the waxy substance called cholesterol), also the waste that was in circulation through the animal's body at the time of slaugther, not to mention the many viruses and germs of the various animal diseases. Meat is NOT a health food!
What?

Is there a reliable source that discusses inuits having issues with these things?

There are people who CHOOSE to eat 100% meat and they are perfectly healthy. Meat as a whole is NOT bad for you. http://zeroinginonhealth.com/ (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fzeroinginonhealth.com% 2F) As extreme a lifestyle as it is, they are healthy.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/07/mortality-and-lifespan-of-inuit.html (http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/redir.php?link=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.spiritualforums.co m%2Fvb%2Fredir.php%3Flink%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww .spiritualforums.com%252Fvb%252Fredir.php%253Flink %253Dhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fwholehealthsource.bl ogspot.com%25252F2008%25252F07%25252Fmortality-and-lifespan-of-inuit.html)

Old figures, but I bet an omniverous population wouldn't have been much different back then, without the medical miracles we have today. Since modern inuits are less healthy for a variety of reasons, and most (ok the most part is a guess) have access to modern foods and unhealthy habits, you can't really judge their mortality rates. Plus, living where they do is bound to make for a harder life.

[mattie]

Well plants don't feel pain. So when you cut it it doesn't feel
anything. ...

& we know this how???????
Just because we can't hear it?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2877098/

It is interesting that this study states that vegans choose this dietary option for ethical reasons. This makes a huge statement that isn't scientific & likely affected the study in many ways.

The conclusion of the study that vegans show more empathy towards animal cruelty is an assumption that may not hold in larger groups. There are many factors that should be looked at. Did the vegans in the study have guilt about eating animals? Was the empathetic level of all in the study equal? It is likely that those whose diet includes meat, but who are empathetic would have the same response. It is also likely that vegans who have made their dietary choice based in what they perfer to eat rather than ethical considerations, & who have no guilt if they choose to eat meat would not have any empath response that differed from the population in general.

[mattie]

I’ve always considered it curious that being vegetarian has sometimes been considered a moral issue where some considered their practice to be superior to others. This is interesting for several reasons including why other’s dietary choices are a concern. Even more interesting is why this would be an issue about which one might consider their self superior to others.

Different body types have different dietary requirements. At different stages of life & under various situations our body can need allot of protein. There are some nutrients in various meat based items that are difficult to get in vegetables. A varied diet is very important.

The fish has no issue w/ eating planketon. Big fish eat little fish. The bear has no issue w/ eating the fish. It is simply their food. Ours too.

Some seem to have guilt about eating beings that are like us. You know, those w/ eyes. Remove the eyes & it is OK to scarf them down! LOL. Plants have equally vital life forces just as beings w/ eyes do, but this is often disregarded. When we recognize that all objects have a life force does this mean we shouldn’t eat anything? Of course not.

I recently read an article in a health food magazine that said a study showed that those who were the healthiest were those who ate small amounts of meat.

There are many factors that affect health & longevity besides whether one includes meat in their diet. Reasonable portions of food? How much sweets, alcohol, & junk food is eaten? Exercise? Weight? Is pH monitored & action taken when too acidic? Do regular cleanses? Have a good balance of healthy fats in the diet? Eat a variety of foods? Attitude? Actively seek personal growth?

[earthy]

If meat is so unhealthy I wonder why my medical doctor (not a quack or holistic doctor) advised me to do the *Atkins diet to lose weight? Not years ago, this was on my last visit about two weeks ago.

I was a little alarmed when I heard my doc suggest this, so I asked about all the supposed health dangers Atkins is supposed to create. He said that they were overblown and he himself uses the diet when he needs to drop some weight. I pressed the issue because I am diabetic, and his only concern is I watch my blood sugar so it doesn't crash.

I have been on his diet for 2 weeks now, and feel 1000% better than I did prior and have dropped 4-lbs. already. I do understand respect a vegetarian lifestyle, and might even follow it myself if I was a veggie lover.

But I seriously have doubts about the ideas presented by others here that seem to indicate that meat eaters are some kinds of spiritual neanderthals. That kind of thinking is what creates hostility in the first place. Live and let live, you eat your veggies in peace and I'll eat my meat, and do likewise.

*For those unaware Atkins is a high protein/low cab diet that stresses eating lots of meat, cheese and other low carb/high protein foods as a means of promoting weight loss and better health.

The Aikten's Diet is not a healthy diet and infact could ruin your health. I would hesitate going to a doctor who would recommend such an extreme without advising of the health consequences (however, he could be one of those quack medical doctors ;-). Do your own research, this diet is completely unhealthy.. you might feel good for a while, but sure enough you will begin to feel like big pile of ****. Yes, you'll loose weight really fast but your health will pay for it. I wouldn't be on any diet where I couldn't eat a piece of fresh natural fruit. If my medical doctor promoted the Aitkens diet, I would seriously find a new doctor.

The American Heart Association states: "Individuals who follow these diets are therefore at risk for compromised vitamin and mineral intake, as well as potential cardiac, renal [kidney], bone, and liver abnormalities overall."Low carb diets like the Atkins diet may also hasten the onset of type II diabetes.[519] In short, concluded the September 2004 review in The Lancet,[524] "low-carbohydrate diets cannot be recommended."

In Europe, hospitals have already started banning the Atkins Diet after the British government's Medical Research Council, backed up by the British Nutrition Foundation and the British Dietetic Association,condemned the Atkins Diet as "negligent""nonsense and pseudo-science" posing a "massive health risk."

An article out of the Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine entitled "Physician's Guide to Popular Low Carbohydrate Weight-Loss Diets" noted that the Atkins Diet "can jeopardize health in a variety of ways."

There are much healthier ways to loose weight. Eat a diet of plenty of fresh food and vegetables, whole grains get plenty of exercise and eat meat/fish only 3 times per week. It might take a little while longer to loose the weight, but your body will thank you for it (This is what your doctor should have recommended in the first place.)

This has nothing to do with the vegan/meat eating debate here and everything to do with maintaining your good health. If you'd like to research a little more into the dangers of this diet, check out atkinsexposed.org

[DebbyM]

It is interesting that this study states that vegans choose this dietary option for ethical reasons. ........
It is also likely that vegans who have made their dietary choice based in what they perfer to eat rather than ethical considerations, & who have no guilt if they choose to eat meat would not have any empath response that differed from the population in general.

Almost all vegans used to eat meat. A few may have quit because they just didn't like the taste, but the majority have made the decision because they didn't want to be part of the cause of suffering in other sentient beings. That means, that in the midst of a normal, meat eating lifestyle, they suddenly became aware of the misery and pain of something besides themselves. It had nothing to do with preference, other than 'we prefer to live a kinder lifestyle'.

[Scibat]

The Aikten's Diet is not a healthy diet and infact could ruin your health. I would hesitate going to a doctor who would recommend such an extreme without advising of the health consequences (however, he could be one of those quack medical doctors ;-). Do your own research, this diet is completely unhealthy.. you might feel good for a while, but sure enough you will begin to feel like big pile of ****. Yes, you'll loose weight really fast but your health will pay for it. I wouldn't be on any diet where I couldn't eat a piece of fresh natural fruit. If my medical doctor promoted the Aitkens diet, I would seriously find a new doctor.

The American Heart Association states: "Individuals who follow these diets are therefore at risk for compromised vitamin and mineral intake, as well as potential cardiac, renal [kidney], bone, and liver abnormalities overall."Low carb diets like the Atkins diet may also hasten the onset of type II diabetes.[519] In short, concluded the September 2004 review in The Lancet,[524] "low-carbohydrate diets cannot be recommended."

In Europe, hospitals have already started banning the Atkins Diet after the British government's Medical Research Council, backed up by the British Nutrition Foundation and the British Dietetic Association,condemned the Atkins Diet as "negligent""nonsense and pseudo-science" posing a "massive health risk."

An article out of the Cleveland Clinic Journal of Medicine entitled "Physician's Guide to Popular Low Carbohydrate Weight-Loss Diets" noted that the Atkins Diet "can jeopardize health in a variety of ways."

There are much healthier ways to loose weight. Eat a diet of plenty of fresh food and vegetables, whole grains get plenty of exercise and eat meat/fish only 3 times per week. It might take a little while longer to loose the weight, but your body will thank you for it (This is what your doctor should have recommended in the first place.)

This has nothing to do with the vegan/meat eating debate here and everything to do with maintaining your good health. If you'd like to research a little more into the dangers of this diet, check out atkinsexposed.org

I already explained, my doctor is far from a quack. Uses the diet himself, and in my circumstances has said it is a good way for me to safely lose weight. He also did advise exercise, plus for every study that says Atkins is not safe you can find one that says it is. :glasses3: Though I do genuinely appreciate your concern.

Only going to link one so as not to derail the thread any further:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1035779/Atkins-diet-safe-far-effective-low-fat-says-study.html

[DebbyM]

So let's take the Inuit, who live in the frigid Arctic and his diet is almost exclusively animal flesh and the blood of animals and fish. His environment gives him no other recourse for survival than to eat heavily on meat products... true, he can survive on a meat only diet; however, these people have a short life span--they age prematurely and suffer from bad livers, back kidneys, stiff joints and in many instances skin diseases.

Fact is meat is very heavy in that very toxic acid known as uric acid. Meat is mostly protein but also carries in it, visible and invisible fats (the waxy substance called cholesterol), also the waste that was in circulation through the animal's body at the time of slaugther, not to mention the many viruses and germs of the various animal diseases. Meat is NOT a health food!


I believe the Inuit have an enlarged liver, necessary to deal with the high meat diet.

[Scibat]

You are taking a population who lives (almost) exclusively on meat to make a point that meat is unhealthy. It's as black-white as it can get. We humans are omnivores.. so logically we do quite well on a balanced diet that consists of both plants and flesh.

Whether meat is 'very toxic' depends on the species. Also, fat is not 'bad'.. in fact we need it. Just because many people eat large amounts of meat (especially fat red meat in the west) doesn't mean that fat is bad or that meat is bad. If meat was not a healthy food for humans you and me wouldn't be having this conversation. :o

I do not support a carnivore diet nor a plant-only diet. I don't see how your post relates to mine but that is okay nonetheless.. :)
Also the Inuit eat blubber, which is really just a specialized form of fat, and eating a diet mostly compromised of fat (meat notwithstanding) can indeed be harmful. They also eat a lot of salmon, which can have high toxicity levels, not because its meat but because of man-made toxins introduced into its environment (which it absorbs). However plants can absorb pesticides and toxins the same way and pass those along to those that eat them as well. So yes I must agree with Chrysaetos.

[DebbyM]

from Time "In regards to the seal hunt...... In VERY conflicted with this, becasue of course, who wants to hurt animals, let alone BABY animals right? But the majority of the hunters up there, are inuit, and thats their way of life. ITs no different, then if someone thought you were being cruel to plants for only eating a vegan diet. ITs how they are, its how they adapted to their enviroment, and they would not have exsisted with out it. They dont overkil the seal to the point of it being extinct, and they dotn waste ANYTHING from the seals. ID much rather someone use the whole thing, then just strip it of its fur and leave it there.... ITs about respect"

Just a note here Time, and I know yours was an old post, but it caught my eye:

Most of the seal hunters in Canada are from Newfoundland or Labrador and recently there have been a couple of seal hunts in Nova Scotia. The quota on seals has been raised again this year, despite the fact that the sea ice where the nurseries are, is melting and more and more babies are drowning or being born on shore where they are even more a target for predators. What is more, the European Union has banned the importation of seal products (with the exception of Inuit hunted animals) and in response, the Conservative government has a) decided to take them to court to try and force a 'country' to do something against it's will (sounds like a bunch of Americans) and b) made a deal to sell seals to the Chinese who have a demonstrable lack of morals when it comes to animals. The few Inuit who are hunting seals for sustenance are not an issue for most because those people live and have lived for millenia in a region where there is little else to eat.

[earthy]

I already explained, my doctor is far from a quack. Uses the diet himself, and in my circumstances has said it is a good way for me to safely lose weight. He also did advise exercise, plus for every study that says Atkins is not safe you can find one that says it is. :glasses3: Though I do genuinely appreciate your concern.

Scibat, with all due respect if you stay on this diet, you will totally mess up your metabolism, sure you are loosing weight quickly but its probably all muscle. I know that loosing weight quickly is a great motivator; however, once you go off this diet, you will gain everything back and then some.

I just don't get how you could believe that the Atkins is a safe, healthy diet... think about it, what kind of diet lets you eat all the chicken wings and high fat cheese you want??

Just because your doctor does the diet him/herself, by no means does that make it healthy or safe. I wouldn't put my trust in a doctor who would recommend a diet that consisted of high fat meat, cheeses, eggs, cream and no fresh fruits or carbs. I wish you luck on your weightloss journey and hope you can maintain good health despite being on this very dangerous diet.

[Time]

I think we are missing a BIG thing here...

Not every person is the same. For instance, most drs use the BMI, and " optimum" weight charts to show the " prefered" weight to high ratio for people.

Now, im 6 foot 2. According to this index, i should be 180 pounds. Really, im naturaly a very wide person, and a very large person, big feet, long arms , big hands, and a naturaly big appitite. If i dont eat, i get wicked headaches in hours. Or i have no energy, and all i do is sit there for the day.

A friend of mine is 6 foot 2 as well, and hes 170 pounds. He eats all the time, and is naturaly thin. Very long limbed, and a very thin profile.

Not to mention life styles. I find it extremely hard to be heatly as an athelete, and eat a strict vegen diet. They need 6000 - 10 000 calories a day, and cant use suppliments for most, it HAS to come from soem form on protien ( eating a dozen eggs is way worse then eating a steak health wise)..

Then theres people who have office jobs. Does it make sence for them to chow down a pound of meat ( protien) in a day?

The main point is we are all different, and a general lifestyle really wont help anyone. We have to understand that we are all different. Me personaly, if i dont eat meat, besides the anger, i have fetigue, dry skin, constant hunger, headaches, hair loss ( ya even after a few days)... thats just cutting down on meats, not total elimination either....

Then again, ive met people who had NO problems ( although, they are few and far between) with a switch... I also know people who have had no problems using atkins.... Also, drs condeming the use of this diet.... Then again, there have been lots of negative publicity for many diets. Just because you loose weight fast doesnt mean they are ( or arent) healthy, it depends on YOU.

We are all different, inside and out, and we cant expect a general diet ( other then biologists classifying us by out general diet - omnivores), to each person, becasue we all need different diets to our lifestyle, and for ourselves. Even atheletes in the same sport dont eat, or train the same way, it depends on what they are capible of, and their body.

The same goes with vegans, we have to really make sure we arent casusing harm to our bodies, just as much as we do to nature.

[Tipareth]

I have been omnivore, lacto-ovo vegetarian and vegan for different time periods so I can compare in my own experience. Being vegan was absolutely the cleanest spiritually - hands down, no question, my sensitivity to energy sky rocketed and I could meditate easily and more deeply. Vegetarian similar but less so. Eating meat for me weighs down my energy and if I eat meat (or dairy or eggs) that came from factory farming where the animal suffered in life as well as death I can absolutely feel the difference. It is worth the money to buy free-range eggs/meat if you can because the energies contained in our modern factory farmed animals' meat is awful, because their lives are horrible. It is truly shocking how much needless suffering is inflicted on these animals just for greater profit.


I agree with everything. Very alike with my experience.

A Romanian monk wrote a booklet on this - he said that for a spiritual life better is for the food to not be boiled, not processed, completely natural.

He said plants do suffer but their pain is weaker. Also he give the advice to not consume baby plants but adult plants, and let them few hours to rest on the table before eating, their suffering will vanish.. so when you eat them you do not ingest it.
Also for meat eaters consume adult, older animal not the babies. Babies suffer more, and their pain brain chemicals at time of death are in higher dose.

[astroboy]

i really actually dont want animals to suffor, it has nothing to do with defending myself. i feel that if people would see that there spirit is divine and eating it is a bit harsh i think they would be veg too. it makes me ill to think about consuming something with a face, with a personality with a soul. i dont understand how others cant see how its so horrible. maybe if you tried to see? when someone justifies something its bc they feel wrong for doing something, i find that non veg trying to justify killing is bc of there subconscious guilt, what reason do i have to justify? i dont feel bad for caring about animals. that really seems silly to me. ive converted someone to veg and made others cut back and it really makes me feel good to know that i saved some, really its not selfish at all lol. i used to say the same things as you, i used to eat it and love it! omg now i do not miss it at all!

i understand that its karma and theres nothing wrong with it, were human, im just aiming for higher than human.

I haven't read all the posts but I find Mahakali has a point here. We do resonate to feelings and emotions in certain animals which have closeness to the human species. E.g. if a cow provides milk, there is a cultural link established through generations with the cow. And if cow milk is used as a purifying agent, then the cow is given higher respect.

In the West, horses are more closely connected with humans than cows and sheep. So there is much hue and cry on the slaughter of horses than it is on other animals.

[Smileyface]

It's different because one screams in pain where as in the other one doesn't, or at least it doesn't let it be known. lol

[Chrysaetos]

It's different because one screams in pain where as in the other one doesn't, or at least it doesn't let it be known. lolFish don't scream..:wink:

[psychoslice]

Fish don't scream..:wink:
A fish will try everything to get away from you, that's enough for me to realize that there is some form of suffering involved.

[Time]

Just becasue something DOESNT or cant run away doent mean it isnt effected either...

[Zero]

Just because something is trying to get away doesn't mean it is suffering in a conscious way either.

Plants try to get away, just very slowly. :D

[Chrysaetos]

A fish will try everything to get away from you, that's enough for me to realize that there is some form of suffering involved.Hmm depends.. sharks will look for you..:wink:

I don't know whether fish suffer and to what extent. All creatures do seem to have a desire not to get hurt.
Running away doesn't mean something necessarily suffers, so I agree with Zero on that.

Of course the ''plant argument'' is just a joke.. it's like me saying ''Spiders suffer from depression.. you can't disprove that..''

[Time]

Well, of ocurse, getting hur usualy implies death in nature, hence, its contrary to instinct.

And how the plant argument is used is a joke. Like everything else we seem to think everything else is liek us. So of course they arent going to scream, or move out of your way, or even react in a way we understand fully. they probably do make some sort of noise we jsut cant hear it ( ya, thats the hippie side of me lol)

But i find it just as sad to have the ' plants cant scream, or look at you, so its ok to eat them" argument.... THAT is a joke IMO

[A.J.M]

Animals eat animals. Fish eat fish. We are animals and in a way no more important than other animals. They for the most part don't eat their own species but they still eat other living creatures. Pain is not something to be abhorred nor is some self perceived pride from not causing something else pain. I've seen plenty of wildlife videos of animals being hunted by other animals and they don't scream out in pain because the kill is quick. It's simply the food chain in action.

It is inherent in a predator to take excitement in the hunt. I believe we are omnivores but the way meat is prepared and the animals are treated during the process is cruel. People should hunt for their own food when they can if they are going to eat meat.

[A.J.M]

A fish will try everything to get away from you, that's enough for me to realize that there is some form of suffering involved.

People are trying to get away from one another when playing tag. Maybe lions just get a little too excited when playing.