The Wisdom Of the 12 Steps of AA

[Shivani Devi]

First, let me say that I am not an alcoholic, but I do have a few persistent, bad habits I cannot seem to break and no amount of personal willpower is helping out there either.

Yeah, I am a smoker (about 3 packs a week) and often, I cant be bothered cooking for one, so I go out to the local Chinese place, or Subway, and I am an iced coffee addict and I usually go to bed at 2-3am only to wake up at 10 or 11am. I'm not regular in my spiritual practice either and I physically suffer...boy, do I suffer and I know my suffering is the direct result of poor lifestyle choices, but does it make any difference? Nope, none whatsoever.

Some of you may like to use this guideline for whatever it is that stands in the way of your spiritual progress, as it's a general 'cure-all' for most of the things associated with the ego, or any compulsive or impulsive actions and/or behaviours, like anger, frustration and the like:

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over *insert bad habit*—that our lives had become unmanageable.

Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Step 4: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Step 5: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Step 6: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Step 7: Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Step 8: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Step 9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Step 10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/38/19/82/381982547ab84df2a238e77d0955c594.jpg?w=1400

[Baile]

AA seems to work for many people so obviously lots of good in it. Personally and as I see it, the AA approach takes the same "negative prayer" approach common in religion: I'm a sinner, I'm imperfect, and only God can save me. That's no doubt why it works for many: it's easy to grasp, specifically because religion and religious modes of thinking are more familiar to the majority of people.

From my own experience, transforming poor habits and even addictions only requires Spirit understanding and self-empowerment: belief in one's self as a perfect being of Spirit; belief in one's ability to overcome any obstacle in life. It does though require connection with higher self wisdom, which I suppose one could equate to "God" in the AA version. But again, I always see Spirit as an aspect of me, myself. My higher self and I can achieve anything.

Also for me and very important: it's never about "wrong" (another negative prayer term), and only ever about transforming things in ways that will improve and make better. Taking every negative and turning it into its positive counterpart. This has everything to do with setting the proper intention. Example: instead of thinking "I want to quit smoking," thinking "I am a non-smoker." With the former, one is still struggling to quit, still trying to succeed, still susceptible to failure. With the latter, one has already quit, is finished with it completely, and is now on their way to health.

[7luminaries]

Necromancer & Baile, hello there!

First, Necro, this is a great thread. I think in the broad framework and outline of process, this is an extremely valuable tool for society at large and for many if not most individuals. And not just for societally-designated "addictions"...but as a tool or chart for spiritual growth. It seems to present a view of a traditional God, but that is easily remedied as we can each use the term or concept for Source with which we are most comfortable.

Also for you Baile...
I think you could (and I would, and many certainly have done)
simply substitute Higher Self or Divine Self or Spirit or whatever you like in place of the word "God". And then it is simply an outline of the process you undergo and commit to undergoing. To make it more of a clearly personal process within which you are aligning your daily mindset and actions with who you are at centre.

However, I do think that in order to get to a place where you say "hey I am a non-smoker, full stop", you clearly still had to start from a place where you freely acknowledge to self and others that "I am a smoker, and I don't like it" or "smoking is bad (for me and for others) and I'm ready to stop doing it and start doing healthier, more loving things (for self and others)."

To both of you...

There is pride and not shame in ownership...and it's a screwed up culture we live in that punishes us or shames us for taking ownership and growing into spiritual maturity...we should IMO reject that entire paradigm and allow ourselves to freely take ownership of where we've been, with pride in the doing. Perhaps we have done things we're not proud of, but we CAN be proud of taking ownership for those things, and for taking different decisions, and for seeking to make amends (reconciliation) where possible.
Those are good and noble things, and we need more of them in all of our lives...as modern culture tends to produce a huge deficit of these things in the individual, without conscious choices taken by him or her.

Certainly we are each free to use the buzzwords that speak to us, but there's no getting around the fact that we must first get clarity on what it is we want to change or stop doing. And we must freely and clearly admit what it is we want to change or stop doing. If we then choose to stress becoming the positive state of non-smoking, no problem. Once we first admit we have been a smoker and that's what needs changing. Otherwise, why even bother as it's not your problem? :biggrin:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Baile]

Also for you Baile...
I think you could (and I would, and many certainly have done)
simply substitute Higher Self or Divine Self or Spirit or whatever you like in place of the word "God".I'm currently involved in a Christian forum discussion with someone who says God in his wrath is preparing to destroy the world for its sin, and that a person would have to be oblivious not to see the signs. So no, it's not about simply substituting. It's about identifying and consciously evolving a wiser, self-directed, Aquarian Age understanding of higher-self and Spirit/Creation.

[7luminaries]

I'm currently involved in a Christian forum discussion with someone who says God in his wrath is preparing to destroy the world for its sin, and that a person would have to be oblivious not to see the signs. So no, it's not about simply substituting. It's about identifying and consciously evolving a wiser, self-directed, Aquarian Age understanding of higher-self and Spirit/Creation.

Baile, LOL...Well, I would say, for YOU, it is simply about substituting the term or concept, precisely BECAUSE you've come to a different place in your understanding.

For others, who cannot see God as Higher Self, the more traditional approach seeks to reach them where they are...and if they are where your discussion partner is at, it's a scary place and we owe them all the compassion we can muster :wink:

Keeping the focus on ownership, you understand that substituting Higher Self for a Deist God (out there somewhere) or an All-Father allows you to more clearly take ownership for where you are -- and with pride in the goodness and rightness of it -- whilst also acknowledging with humility and grace that you are not yet in full alignment (just like the rest of us).

Not everyone is there...so the language is phrased to allow the authority figure (of God/Higher Self) to guide them more truly on their path when they are at their weakest spiritually and otherwise and need support to weather the crisis of their day-to-day lives. It may be a bit more primitive and it may not speak to you or me, but if it sets folks on the course of right-alignment with Spirit, it's all to the good.

Personally, I think the 12 step approach with Higher Self or Source as the reference is still a powerful tool for our spiritual growth. We are not "above it" :wink:

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[7luminaries]

BTW Baile...have you asked your discussion partner (for lack of a better word :) what about considering it's just us? That we are the ones doing this to one another and to the earth? And that we've got no one else to blame but ourselves?

Also...if we're heading for destruction, does he acknowledge concrete changes would have to be made by us, just us, and no one else but us?

Just curious to see where his mindset is at...

If he doesn't accept his own hand in it...well you can certainly see the need for something, anything like a 12-step program that calls folks to accountability with themselves and those around them.

I'll admit...the arrogance of fingering God -- whilst failing to own that it's man's inhumanity to man and earth -- is astounding really, isn't it?
It's like his own wacky "get out of jail free" card.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Lynn]

Hello

Wow this brings back memories of AA and my EX and all those meetings that we were "court ordered" to attend. While I have seen some success stories from the meetings I too have seen some just go for the motions of going.

Addiction is something you have to first admit you have and second be willing to take to heart the path the change. A drink is always just one sip away, like smoking its one puff away for many to addiction again.

Meetings too can become the addiction that need to be around others to keep you in line. Where does it stop, what is that point where you do not need a meeting, this is what I never understood from the process.

I went to many of the counter to AA which is Al-anon for the family of one that abuses drink. Here I found that it was a lot of "you can help" in approach but unless the one with the issue wants the help its a loosing battle.

For some God is the aspect that they can not buy into, I know this was the case with my EX, and some can not change from that God image to get the program has a deeper level. Too God is a changing concept as we become more and more internationally diverse in places, so maybe the program has to evolve with the times in places ?

There is wisdom in the process only if your able to commit to the discipline. I would see many that were at the wrong meeting when I attended they had an issue....but did not see it.

There are so many things we can become addicted to....that we fail to see as an issue in our life path. I have to wonder at times "what is in the coffee" from some shops that makes you pay over $5.00 for a cup that in a blind taste test of the same one made at home tasting the same. Yet if its at home or in your office at work your not addicted to having to have it. Yet you are going to the store front ? I laugh at the line ups in the drive through for coffee....its coffee. Water and beans, cream and sugar at times.

Same with fast food its the same thing you can make at home.....there is now Big Mac Sauce in the stores....so make a fresh good quality burger....and smile. Yet there too we are addicted to that taste at times. Why ?

I personally used the 12 Steps to get off an Bridge Mix addiction I had, was so bad I hid it all over the house. I would go to a meeting and say I was addicted to that candy.....a it was like my booze that the ex abused. It worked I still have it from time to time....but not hidden everywhere now.


Lynn

[organic born]

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over *insert bad habit*—that our lives had become unmanageable.

As I read through this list I find myself wanting to dismantle each step into a more conscious understanding of what's actually going on. The ignorance that underlie each point is almost breathtakingly naive.

For starters lets tackle this first one. Our lives are guaranteed to be unmanageable because the context we grew up in is dysfunctional to the core. Between the religious imagery we were raised in, the foods that we are being shoved into and then adapt to as "normal", the schools that we were forced to attend essentially robed us of the years that we could have been learning real stuff about finances, cooking, growing our own food, learning to work intelligently with each other (instead of being forced into sterile class rooms among other children who are trapped in the same way) and then the television that feeds us ideas about living that have little to do with what is specifically healthful and functional.

Then from this we create busy jobs where we move around products that we've been encouraged to buy that have little to no value other than tickle our fancy until the next item comes along. We were raised to be assembly line workers and then helplessly go along with wherever we're directed.

So our lives will feel empty because essentially what we're having to do to get by is a watered down version of what it is to be human. We're not approaching life as a comprehensive participant, we fill a slot on an assembly line that produces almost nothing of value while swimming through a chemically ladened environment with little nutrition to offset it.

So how is anyone expected to feel functional when we've all been reduced to being essentially drones? The "bad" habits that we find ourselves doing is a product of misdirection and a form of personal comfort in terms of stimulating our reward reflex and a feeling of "choice" within a lifestyle of choices that have little depth of value when viewed objectively.

This does not mean that "life" itself is devoid of value, and unlike the Step 1 mentioned above we are not really the authors of our own conundrum, we are simply the lifelong followers of what dysfunctional options that are offered us within the mindsets of those who surround us.

So we're off to a bad start if we begin this introspective journey by strictly blaming 'ourselves' for this situation that we find ourselves in. This entire culture embedded us into a host of options which are, by default, unmanageable in a holistic way. This entire culture is essentially unmanageable and we're just being drug along with it. Realizing this alone, through clear introspection, is empowering enough to move toward a more valued experience with "self"

[organic born]

Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Vomit! You "live" yourself, there is no power greater than your experience with self. The culture may influence our choices, and view of self, but the idea that someone big and "out-there", other than ourselves, will somehow save us from our own conundrum, when personal introspection will do just as well if fully directed, is to "formally believe" that we are indeed helpless. Vomit!

Regardless of who shows us what, we are still the focus of our own attention and direct ourselves based on our intimate conclusions. It's this reliance on the "outside forces" that "know more than we do" that's driving this train of dysfunction. We'll be using this idea of god to replace our parents, teachers, preachers, governments influence over our own view of self. Only this god will reflect what we currently think that this god is, and since we haven't cleaned out the cultures influence over our view of things then we'll likely be putting into this gods mouth the same stuff that the "authorities", that got us into this mess in the first place, are encouraging us to do.

Among these twelve steps is essentially a redirection to some god the same dysfunction that we're unable to overcome by using the current cultural paradigms. Only we'll be still applying these same cultural paradigms by now assigning some god the task of dong roughly the same thing. yuck!

[Shivani Devi]

Of course this will not be useful for anybody who doesn't believe in a Power or concept greater than their own ego-self or any kind of 'God of their own understanding' or any universal source or force whatsoever, but some of us do, including myself.

Of course it also won't be useful if they cannot admit their 'bad habit' or whatever difficulty they are self-inflicting is causing problems in their life and they'd like to change, but sheer willpower hasn't worked because they're still relying on the ego-self for that.

It also won't be useful for those who have no bad habits, or those who are still in full denial of them or happy having them.

If any of this makes you want to throw up and you don't like this whatsoever and what I post makes you nauseated that you feel physically ill, there's always an ignore feature on here. Thank you.

[Shivani Devi]

Of course, people could always say "this does not relate to me personally at ALL" and just leave it there, because for millions, it has worked, but I don't see anybody doing that.

But this is my retrograde Saturn in Pisces in the Third House doing it's Karmic thing again...

*goes back to the Hindu forum where I know what I'm talking about*

[Badcopyinc]

Personal history about myself has had me in this enviroment more times then i can count (15+yrs). Even studied the correlation to the 12 steps and how dual diagnosis therapy is broadly accepting it in my region. They're finding almost everyone with a psychological diagnosis is being better treated with this adapted program as most have addictions as well.

I've been the cause of or been involved in a plethora of conversations involving how most of the people i encounter on a daily basis have an addiction of some sort its just not illegal. social media, overeating, overspending, issues with being alone and constantly needing communication or company, need to debate and be right and my favorite need of approval. more or less anything that a person does over and over again for a short term happy can be viewed as an addiction in the right light. I've even seen people get addicted to spirituality and trying to learn the most and be the most high.

I've often imagined what new forms of therapy would be like. I even wanted to spearhead my own theories and write a book or open my own practice (the idea lasted for like an hour) Merging the idea of traditional therapy with power of thought and the 12 steps. I've also had this conversation with a lot of friends and therapist colleagues. everyone seemed very intrigued and agreed how beneficial it would be. just hope i get kick back if someone does it! :cool:

I've even took into account the ideas and info put fourth in "What the Bleep!?: Down the Rabbit Hole" that each thought triggers an emotion and those emotions are a result of a release of chemicals in the brain that get absorbed by the body. which they say is addiction on a biological level. they point out how someone who is constantly upset depressed or sad almost craves those same feelings at times. hence putting on the sad or angry breakup music. I've been victim to this myself putting on a sappy movie after a breakup and unconsciously creating that same release of sad emotions. It astounds me how well addiction and thought go hand in hand. then upon changing direction to a spiritual path ive also noticed how similar these two worlds are. and have been going to rooms occasionally because i crave (yes my addiction) people who think along the same lines i do. and surprisingly enough i find more satisfying conversation with addicts then i do with those that are "addiction free"

Someone on here. think it was baile mentioned at one point how he just up and quit smoking one day. didn't feel the need for it. I have gone through this and regret not choosing to quit then. instead i kept going but at the same time i had just given up meat and dairy. then moved onto intimate relations altogether (no fap) very empowering..

in short i don't know how i got to that point and wish i would have written down my process to analyze later. but i remember thinking why am i smoking? and didn't feel the need or want any day after for a good two weeks but almost pushed myself to continue.

[davidsun]

Of course, people could always say "this does not relate to me personally at ALL" and just leave it there, because for millions, it has worked, but I don't see anybody doing that.

But this is my retrograde Saturn in Pisces in the Third House doing it's Karmic thing again...

*goes back to the Hindu forum where I know what I'm talking about*
Hi Nec -

Have you thought about the possibility of doing a 12-steps kind of approach to not (presently) being able to develop 'immunity' to feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated etc.?

Whatever - please know that I appreciated, to the point of admiring even, what you undertook to do here and did quite well up, to a point.

:hug2:

[Shivani Devi]

Hi Nec -

Have you thought about the possibility of doing a 12-steps kind of approach to not (presently) being able to develop 'immunity' to feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated etc.?

Whatever - please know that I appreciated, to the point of admiring even, what you undertook to do here and did quite well up, to a point.

:hug2:Thank you, David. :hug2:

I woke up today thinking to myself that those who react so emotionally and violently to whatever I post, must mean there is some truth in it for them, because if there were not, they would simply laugh, go "what a load of bee ess" and just unsubscribe. I also failed to take into account those who took the time to put up a constructive argument as well, so thank you to all those who did not want to dissect it or pick it all apart and I have read all of the replies. <3

I guess, in all honesty that it's the same people who do this to me in other threads too, so when it comes to the whole 'ignore function' thing, I should also be availing of it more often than I do myself.

The only way I can make myself immune from feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated is to mentally tell them all where they can go in my head, so until such times as that changes...

[Badcopyinc]

Thank you, David. :hug2:

I woke up today thinking to myself that those who react so emotionally and violently to whatever I post, must mean there is some truth in it for them, because if there were not, they would simply laugh, go "what a load of bee ess" and just unsubscribe. I also failed to take into account those who took the time to put up a constructive argument as well, so thank you to all those who did not want to dissect it or pick it all apart and I have read all of the replies. <3

I guess, in all honesty that it's the same people who do this to me in other threads too, so when it comes to the whole 'ignore function' thing, I should also be availing of it more often than I do myself.

The only way I can make myself immune from feeling unduly insulted/unappreciated is to mentally tell them all where they can go in my head, so until such times as that changes...

I wanted to tell you thank you for posting this. I always respect your view and appreciate your presence on here I've learned a lot from what you have posted. Even when we don't agree I still respect you view and question why i don't agree and learn from it. :hug3:

[Shivani Devi]

I wanted to tell you thank you for posting this. I always respect your view and appreciate your presence on here I've learned a lot from what you have posted. Even when we don't agree I still respect you view and question why i don't agree and learn from it. :hug3:Maybe I just require a dose of humility, like you just gave me and thank you so much for it. :hug3:

I understand now! I can only be humble and meek when I am being appreciated!

So, all those times when I am not, I only want to give as good, if not better.

[organic born]

Of course this will not be useful for anybody who doesn't believe in a Power or concept greater than their own ego-self or any kind of 'God of their own understanding' or any universal source or force whatsoever, but some of us do, including myself.

Of course it also won't be useful if they cannot admit their 'bad habit' or whatever difficulty they are self-inflicting is causing problems in their life and they'd like to change, but sheer willpower hasn't worked because they're still relying on the ego-self for that.

Well I'm in good company. Even the co-founder of AA didn't rely on that list, choosing to use LSD instead to address his own issues.

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/founder-alcoholics-anonymous-lsd-experience-help-addicts-stay-clean
In fact, Bill Wilson, the co-founder of the Alcoholics Anonymous program, actually considered promoting LSD as a tool for alcoholics to shake their addiction. Wilson was a close associate with many early adopters of LSD and took numerous trips in controlled, scientific settings while he was involved with the AA program.

Words are just words and ideas are just ideas. Bill felt the need to use the experience of LSD in order to bring substance to the process and not simply rely on concepts alone.

My own spiritual experience started with experiences and are driven by experiences and is not reliant on the dreams that are formed though persistent thought habits. Bill Wilson agrees. He was not happy with the idea that this list should stand alone.

Such lists are a whistle stop on the way toward transformation. If one embraces them as anything more, then the list itself becomes a prison. You are of course free to follow the course you see fit, my response is a reaction to the shallowness of the list itself. And in this I'm in the company with the co-founder of this list. He viscerally didn't didn't like the idea of being stuck in one place either.

[7luminaries]

I don't see a conflict between any of the 12 step items and further development of the self. It seems a conflict IMO only if we approach life as rigid, stark categories or as black-and-white.

Let's assume instead that we keep an open mind to it all, including how own would or might adopt and benefit from the philosophy in his or her own life. To me, the point of the 12-step approach is coincidental with awakening, meaning it drives and then in turn is also is fed by awakening.

What is the approach, in broad strokes? It is becoming aware and acknowledging where one is at, and then taking full ownership of where one is at. The movement forward next involves acceptance of grace and humility, and then allows for full exploration of remorse and contrition. Then the natural step after that is seeking to make amends...to apologise and to reconcile where possible. This is all so basic to spiritual and emotional growth...but yet it is clearly something that is difficult, and many of us benefit from or need the guidance as lamps along our path.

This is applicable to all humanity, really. And the point at which you don't need this sort of guidance is the point at which you've taken complete ownership of your life and you've internalised all these steps. No one has to remind you to care for other equally to self.

The other aspect which is also applicable to all but specifically to those in recovery is building a new life (for many) and accessing the group support AND the transparency and accountability to one's sponsors and to the group, in order to successfully do so. Accountability is equally important to the support. It may be that after months (or years for some), some individuals may only attend weekly or bimonthly or what have ye...but the need for support (a form of love and lovingkindness) is purely human. The 12 step approach makes the sheer fact of interbeing very concrete...you are called to acknowledge and participate in interbeing for mutual sharing, support, and accountability to one another. I think this is actually quite powerful and has universal application.

Likewise, the need for transparency and accountability never goes away, whether one has an illegal/villified addiction or not...it is simply more concrete and real for most recovering addicts (who cannot screw around and understand that their lives literally depend on it) when they have to choose to share with the group. It's not failsafe, but it's harder to lie or make excuses and justifications for your behavior in front of others and especially others whom you know and have come to care about, and that's the whole point. For many, this is a part of the new chapter...learning what ownership and integrity is, learning how to authentically love and care for others equally to the self (the addict's weak point, but also our society's weak point), and how to start building these from nothing, from the ground up.

It is what it is, and there are likely some or many in recovery who feel most comfortable with some lifelong group support aspect. When they are ready to incorporate new activities or forms of support and learning etc which aid them in their new lives...which aid them on their journey...they can choose to add them to the group support, or they can leave off group support whenever they are ready. I personally would never suggest they quit what is working for them -- best to refrain from judgment and let them do as they need. But adding on new healthy lifestyle activities when they are feeling stronger is a simple best-of-both approaches.

There's no need to approach any of this as an either/or thing even for hard-core addicts in recovery. Certainly, there's no conflict for the rest of us between pursuing any general philosophy of ownership, responsibility, transparency, and ethical living with exploring new things and new interests in any aspect of our lives. As long as those things are also healthy and sustainable for the body and soul.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7L

[Shivani Devi]

I don't see a conflict between any of the 12 step items and further development of the self. It seems a conflict IMO only if we approach life as rigid, stark categories or as black-and-white.

Let's assume instead that we keep an open mind to it all, including how own would or might adopt and benefit from the philosophy in his or her own life. To me, the point of the 12-step approach is coincidental with awakening, meaning it drives and then in turn is also is fed by awakening.

What is the approach, in broad strokes? It is becoming aware and acknowledging where one is at, and then taking full ownership of where one is at. The movement forward next involves acceptance of grace and humility, and then allows for full exploration of remorse and contrition. Then the natural step after that is seeking to make amends...to apologise and to reconcile where possible. This is all so basic to spiritual and emotional growth...but yet it is clearly something that is difficult, and many of us benefit from or need the guidance as lamps along our path.

This is applicable to all humanity, really. And the point at which you don't need this sort of guidance is the point at which you've taken complete ownership of your life and you've internalised all these steps. No one has to remind you to care for other equally to self.

The other aspect which is also applicable to all but specifically to those in recovery is building a new life (for many) and accessing the group support AND the transparency and accountability to one's sponsors and to the group, in order to successfully do so. Accountability is equally important to the support. It may be that after months (or years for some), some individuals may only attend weekly or bimonthly or what have ye...but the need for support (a form of love and lovingkindness) is purely human. The 12 step approach makes the sheer fact of interbeing very concrete...you are called to acknowledge and participate in interbeing for mutual sharing, support, and accountability to one another. I think this is actually quite powerful and has universal application.

Likewise, the need for transparency and accountability never goes away, whether one has an illegal/villified addiction or not...it is simply more concrete and real for most recovering addicts (who cannot screw around and understand that their lives literally depend on it) when they have to choose to share with the group. It's not failsafe, but it's harder to lie or make excuses and justifications for your behavior in front of others and especially others whom you know and have come to care about, and that's the whole point. For many, this is a part of the new chapter...learning what ownership and integrity is, learning how to authentically love and care for others equally to the self (the addict's weak point, but also our society's weak point), and how to start building these from nothing, from the ground up.

It is what it is, and there are likely some or many in recovery who feel most comfortable with some lifelong group support aspect. When they are ready to incorporate new activities or forms of support and learning etc which aid them in their new lives...which aid them on their journey...they can choose to add them to the group support, or they can leave off group support whenever they are ready. I personally would never suggest they quit what is working for them -- best to refrain from judgment and let them do as they need. But adding on new healthy lifestyle activities when they are feeling stronger is a simple best-of-both approaches.

There's no need to approach any of this as an either/or thing even for hard-core addicts in recovery. Certainly, there's no conflict for the rest of us between pursuing any general philosophy of ownership, responsibility, transparency, and ethical living with exploring new things and new interests in any aspect of our lives. As long as those things are also healthy and sustainable for the body and soul.

Peace & blessings :hug3:
7LThank you. This was what I was trying to convey here, before everything got side-tracked.

To say that nothing should stand as guidelines or pointers would be to disclude/discredit the Bible, the Vedas...anything ever written about anything holy or spiritual whatsoever and it's fine for some to say they are 'over all that' and 'experience teaches them' and that is all well and good for those who exist beyond any form of mental association whatsoever, so that a habit will not be bothersome (if they saw anything as their own doing anyway), but 99% of people are not like that and I just happened to have a 1%'er posting on this thread.

Bottom line is if it is helpful, that's up to the individual who reads it and follows it and no amount of others saying 'that's a load of rubbish' is going to stand in the way of it. It takes determination and steadfastness not to be swayed by the beliefs of others and then those others may call you 'stubborn', 'blind', 'ignorant' or whatever, but that's because they are still trying to promote an agenda which they follow and want everybody else to as well.

This is not like that. I honestly don't care if others find it helpful or useful or not, but what I will not tolerate, is others poisoning the well for those who may want to drink from it, so if that is the intention, I ask you to kindly leave this thread or I shall request that it be closed. Thank you.

[organic born]

but what I will not tolerate, is others poisoning the well for those who may want to drink from it, so if that is the intention, I ask you to kindly leave this thread or I shall request that it be closed. Thank you.

You may continue at your leisure. I was curious about something and I saw what I needed to see. :)

[Shivani Devi]

You may continue at your leisure. I was curious about something and I saw what I needed to see. :)Whether you saw what it was you needed to see or just wanted to see is all the same to you.

[davidsun]

Whether you saw what it was you needed to see or just wanted to see is all the same to you.
Reminded me of Paul Simon's lyric: "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest." As you often do, he can sho ring my bell!
:hug:

[Shivani Devi]

Reminded me of Paul Simon's lyric: "Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest." As you often do, he can sho ring my bell!
:hug:Maybe that is why certain people and I just don't get on at all.

They take snippets of what I say totally out of context, put their own cognitive bias spin on it and before long it becomes what they want to hear and not what I have said, so anything they have to say based on that, I totally ignore because it's also what I don't want to hear because it is all non-sequitir.

So David, tell me something, maybe you know it.

Lets say you have your own belief system you are very comfortable with and you are happy within it (it's totally working for you). You are very happy being who you are and you know that anything contrary to it just isn't for you because you have either tried that or are totally uninterested in trying that.

Do you live your whole life saying "thank you for your kind advice, I shall consider it" and never do, thus lying and giving false platitude just to make another feel better and shut them up OR

Do you say "I have my own path/beliefs I am very happy with, so thanks, but no thanks" leading them to say you are ignorant, dismissive and only hearing things you want to hear because it's not what they want you to hear OR

Do you simply laugh and ask them to show you their face before they were born and have them label you as crazy?

One just cannot win in any interraction with another human being here because interacting with the Divine has totally crueled it...

So yeah, my selective perception kicks in...especially when Flat Earth is discussed...

[MicroMacro]

First, let me say that I am not an alcoholic, but I do have a few persistent, bad habits I cannot seem to break and no amount of personal willpower is helping out there either.

I'm not regular in my spiritual practice either and I physically suffer...boy, do I suffer and I know my suffering is the direct result of poor lifestyle choices, but does it make any difference? Nope, none whatsoever.

Some of you may like to use this guideline for whatever it is that stands in the way of your spiritual progress, as it's a general 'cure-all' for most of the things associated with the ego, or any compulsive or impulsive actions and/or behaviours, like anger, frustration and the like:

Step 1: We admitted we were powerless over *insert bad habit*—that our lives had become unmanageable.

Step 2: Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Step 3: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Step 4: Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Step 5: Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Step 6: Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Step 7: Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

Step 8: Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

Step 9: Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Step 10: Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.

Step 11: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God, as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Step 12: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these Steps, we tried to carry this message to others, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.



I think it's interesting that you would recommend something - the 12 steps - that you don't practice regularly and that doesn't work for you. And apparently all the will you can muster isn't helping either.

Everyone derives something from their addictions/bad habits. What do yours do for you?

Why do you think that if you were regular in your spiritual practice your life would be different? Is that the requirement or might it be that you make changes - whether you want to or not - and replace bad habits with equally important (to you) good ones because that's the smart and healthy thing to do?

I suggest that anyone who wants to break an addiction/bad habit first look to see what the benefit of it is. That's an important piece. Once that's been discovered, the next step is to think about how that need can be met without the negative habit/addiction. All addictions have to be replaced with something equally or more important to the person.

The 12 steps work for plenty of people, but some need to find their own answers because their motivation for change comes from within. Everyone's true motivation comes from within, but most 12-steppers get other needs met in the rooms because more happens than just the adoption of someone else's methods (the 12-steps) - like companionship and acceptance for example.

:)

[Shivani Devi]

I think it's interesting that you would recommend something - the 12 steps - that you don't practice regularly and that doesn't work for you. And apparently all the will you can muster isn't helping either.

Everyone derives something from their addictions/bad habits. What do yours do for you?

Why do you think that if you were regular in your spiritual practice your life would be different? Is that the requirement or might it be that you make changes - whether you want to or not - and replace bad habits with equally important (to you) good ones because that's the smart and healthy thing to do?

I suggest that anyone who wants to break an addiction first look to see what the benefit of it is. That's an important piece. Once that's been discovered, the next step is to think about how that need can be met without the negative habit/addiction. All addictions have to be replaced with something equally or more important to the person.

The 12 steps work for plenty of people, but some need to find their own answers because their motivation for change comes from within. Everyone's true motivation comes from within, but most 12-steppers get other needs met in the rooms because more happens than just the adoption of someone else's methods (the 12-steps) - like companionship and acceptance for example.

:)Maybe that is because I just decided to follow it and I cannot say it has worked for me yet because it has only been a few days. *sigh*

I did not say it hasn't worked for me, did I? I just said my own willpower or totally neglecting the fact that God can help me hasn't worked for me as yet.

I just thought I would post it because it may also be helpful to one person out of a million who finds that it isn't useful. If it can help one person in a million or even a billion, this thread has done its job.

What is the benefit of my addictions? keeping me temporarily satisfied, satiating my boredom and lulling me into a stupefying, complacent laziness with the added side-effect of being unable to suffer fools gladly.

[keokutah]

It works if you do it right.

Step 1 is the most important step of all. It helps an addict to hit rock bottom so they can realize how problematic the issue is.

Addicts "love" what they are addicted to and often make excuses to enable their addictions.

You always tell yourself, "I can control it", but it's an addiction so of course you never can.

The next trap addicts fall into is committing to recovery, but always holding in the back of their mind this thought: "Once I recover I will then try to find a healthy way to keep using *insert bad habit here* in a balanced way."

And that's just not possible, that's why they continously relapse.
Step 1 is designed to help addicts realize that.

In AA we tell people if there is ANY doubt in their mind that they have a problem with drinking, they should go back out and try controlled drinking.
Some people are able to control their drinking but addicts are NOT.
If you can control your drinking then you are NOT an addict. Real addicts do not have any control over their addictions, and they never will be able to. It is something they will have to abstain from forever.
Step 1 is designed to make you feel absolutely terrible. You are supposed to realize the extent of your problem, realize all the damage it is has done in your life, and it should make you feel absolutely HOPELESS.
That is the whole point of the step.
Because you realize you have no control to get over it yourself, which is true, and that will make you open to other ideas.

As an addict, you've indulged in control seeking behaviours and have relied on your giant ego to get you out of these unhealthy patterns time and time again, and you've always failed because addiction is always stronger than you are.

Most people who turn to AA have also been neglected by the mental health system and other addiction support groups or therapist, which also failed them. They turn to AA as a last resort, knowing nothing else out there can help them. But they are definitely encouraged to try out all those other forms of therapies beforehand.

Step 2 and 3 are not religious, it is a spiritual program. Your "higher power" can be anything you want it to be, in fact that is encouraged, the only requirement is that it has to be something loving. So if your idea of a higher power is your higher self, then so be it. You actually aren't allowed to even talk about "God" in AA meetings, because it can scare away newcomers. It isn't a christian group or any set religious group. Everyone there has different ideas of what their higher powers are.

As long as you realize that your addictive, ego self is completely messed up without your spirituality.
The psychological part of steps 1, 2 and 3 are super important, because it tries to mimic a natural "realization that you want to recover".

Do you know how some people say, "one day I just woke up with the desire to recover and it was like a miracle and and my addiction was just miraculously released from me?" That's exactly what the 12 steps are trying to copy. Step 1 tries to facilitate that desire to recover, and step 2 and 3 facilitates the belief that you can, and that is ultimately the only thing that helps people recover, but these steps have narrowed it down in such a way that it really helps people when they do it right.
The rest of the steps are all about making ammends and letting go, which is also very important in recovery, but also I think that kind of self work would benefit every person.
All the steps have to be done in order. Even the steps "becoming willing" to do something are very important and can take awhile.

[davidsun]

Maybe that is why certain people and I just don't get on at all.

They take snippets of what I say totally out of context, put their own cognitive bias spin on it and before long it becomes what they want to hear and not what I have said, so anything they have to say based on that, I totally ignore because it's also what I don't want to hear because it is all non-sequitir.

So David, tell me something, maybe you know it.

Lets say you have your own belief system you are very comfortable with and you are happy within it (it's totally working for you). You are very happy being who you are and you know that anything contrary to it just isn't for you because you have either tried that or are totally uninterested in trying that.

Do you live your whole life saying "thank you for your kind advice, I shall consider it" and never do, thus lying and giving false platitude just to make another feel better and shut them up OR

Do you say "I have my own path/beliefs I am very happy with, so thanks, but no thanks" leading them to say you are ignorant, dismissive and only hearing things you want to hear because it's not what they want you to hear OR

Do you simply laugh and ask them to show you their face before they were born and have them label you as crazy?

One just cannot win in any interaction with another human being here because interacting with the Divine has totally crueled it...

So yeah, my selective perception kicks in...especially when Flat Earth is discussed...
I love your spunkiness, Nec - meaning, in this case, I experience great delight when i 'see' it, like when I 'see' a powerful/sleek dolphin full of vitality (spunk) leap out of the water and cavorting while 'flying' through the air. :hello2:

Let me suggest an analogy as a way of answering your various questions about possible things to 'do' (or not so) in relation to various kinds of things 'said' youward.

You are playing in a base-ball like, truth ball, game. When 'at bat' and balls are being thrown your way, it is up to you to decide whether any given ball is 'worth' swinging at. Is it so far 'off base' that your hit-connecting with it is unlikely. Then it would be 'wisdom' to just let it go by and not take a swing at it. Is it aimed at 'beaning' you? Then it would be 'wisdom' to simply jump back or duck so it doesn't 'land' on 'you'. Is it coming over the plate so swinging at and possibly hit-connecting with it might result in your either hitting a 'home' run or getting 'on base'? In which case, it would be 'wisdom' to swing at it with all your mind, soul and might.

When 'pitching', unlike 'real' baseball which is basically competitive in nature, it would be 'wisdom' to pitch balls which a batter or batters might be able to connect with and thereby hit a home run or get on base (closer to making a 'score').

In either case, whether pitching or batting, it is up to you to discern what kinds of balls to throw or swing at, so as to 'make the most' of your game-playing opportunities and abilities and present the best possible opportunities to others who may be able to 'use' to positive effect. To be a 'good' pitcher, one has to articulate one's truth as clearly and hit-relate-ably as possible. You are already quite good at doing this, IMO, except I think you could develop and enjoy a greater sense of sportswomanship so as to not get frustrated and/or upset when 'batters' don't manage to 'connect' with your meanings or when they connect with it by hitting 'the ball' in directions which aren't the same as the directions you had in mind and wished they would hit them towards when you pitched it towards them.

And IMO you could benefit from developing a better sense of sportswomanship when at bat so you don't get frustrated and/or upset when you swing at balls and 'miss', miss in this case meaning when where you (intend to) hit the ball to is either ignored, misunderstood, mischaracterized, laughed at, etc., etc., etc.

Part of developing such a 'sense' of sportswomanship may hinge on your knowing that you are and so playing as a part of a team, instead of just thinking and feeling about 'success' or 'failure' as in terms of what you personally manage to accomplish (or fail to) on any give 'swing' or 'pitch'. The 'humility' you 'seek' will come from realizing things like that even the best batters don't 'get a hit' every time, that even the most 'outstanding batters' rate well under .500 (.500 meaning getting to base 50% of the time). Same applies to pitchers realizing and accepting that it is quite rare for one to 'throw' a 'perfect' game.

The 'joy' and 'increasing' of 'love and wisdom' (both in terms of the game and in relation to others you are playing with) comes from being a part of a team of collaborators who are working/playing together, both depending on others to make their best possible the contributions and appreciating them when they do. The participation in and experience of comraderie (not aiming to be make 'grand' contributions on your own because you want to truth-'win' more than anything else) makes even 'losing' games A-OK! :smile:

[Shivani Devi]

I love your spunkiness, Nec - meaning, in this case, I experience great delight when i 'see' it, like when I 'see' a powerful/sleek dolphin full of vitality (spunk) leap out of the water and cavorting while 'flying' through the air. :hello2:

Let me suggest an analogy as a way of answering your various questions about possible things to 'do' (or not so) in relation to various kinds of things 'said' youward.

You are playing in a base-ball like, truth ball, game. When 'at bat' and balls are being thrown your way, it is up to you to decide whether any given ball is 'worth' swinging at. Is it so far 'off base' that your hit-connecting with it is unlikely. Then it would be 'wisdom' to just let it go by and not take a swing at it. Is it aimed at 'beaning' you? Then it would be 'wisdom' to simply jump back or duck so it doesn't 'land' on 'you'. Is it coming over the plate so swinging at and possibly hit-connecting with it might result in your either hitting a 'home' run or getting 'on base'? In which case, it would be 'wisdom' to swing at it with all your mind, soul and might.

When 'pitching', unlike 'real' baseball which is basically competitive in nature, it would be 'wisdom' to pitch balls which a batter or batters might be able to connect with and thereby hit a home run or get on base (closer to making a 'score').

In either case, whether pitching or batting, it is up to you to discern what kinds of balls to throw or swing at, so as to 'make the most' of your game-playing opportunities and abilities and present the best possible opportunities to others who may be able to 'use' to positive effect. To be a 'good' pitcher, one has to articulate one's truth as clearly and hit-relate-ably as possible. You are already quite good at doing this, IMO, except I think you could develop and enjoy a greater sense of sportswomanship so as to not get frustrated and/or upset when 'batters' don't manage to 'connect' with your meanings or when they connect with it by hitting 'the ball' in directions which aren't the same as the directions you had in mind and wished they would hit them towards when you pitched it towards them.

And IMO you could benefit from developing a better sense of sportswomanship when at bat so you don't get frustrated and/or upset when you swing at balls and 'miss', miss in this case meaning when where you (intend to) hit the ball to is either ignored, misunderstood, mischaracterized, laughed at, etc., etc., etc.

Part of developing such a 'sense' of sportswomanship may hinge on your knowing that you are and so playing as a part of a team, instead of just thinking and feeling about 'success' or 'failure' as in terms of what you personally manage to accomplish (or fail to) on any give 'swing' or 'pitch'. The 'humility' you 'seek' will come from realizing things like that even the best batters don't 'get a hit' every time, that even the most 'outstanding batters' rate well under .500 (.500 meaning getting to base 50% of the time). Same applies to pitchers realizing and accepting that it is quite rare for one to 'throw' a 'perfect' game.

The 'joy' and 'increasing' of 'love and wisdom' (both in terms of the game and in relation to others you are playing with) comes from being a part of a team of collaborators who are working/playing together, both depending on others to make their best possible the contributions and appreciating them when they do. The participation in and experience of comraderie (not aiming to be make 'grand' contributions on your own because you want to truth-'win' more than anything else) makes even 'losing' games A-OK! :smile:It's more like I have a baseball bat and other people are pelting me with golf balls...yeah, I jump outta the way, but some do land on my noggin' anyway.

I understand what you are saying, that this is the internet and trolls come in all shapes and sizes and we have to learn what a 'spiritual troll' looks like and when not to feed them.

I could always say "I don't understand, could you please explain yourself?" over and over until they tire of doing it.

However, I have also been learning a lot of other lessons over the past day or so, all about direct channeling from the heart and also to start incorporating many personal disclaimers just for ease of reference.

I found one on Wikipedia yesterday that had me rolling on the floor in fits of laughter:

Disclaimer: on this topic there is a certain amount of melding and unification of the seemingly distinct concepts of will, freedom, consciousness, speech and bliss in the speciality texts. This is due to the insufficient ability of common language to describe the mystical states of consciousness.

It came from the teachings on Svatantrya and I should also be looking to Tantra to deal with this.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svatantrya

However, I'm pretty much done here as there are other things I deem more worthy of my temporal investment now and I should leave before the rigor motis sets in.

[Shivani Devi]

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1tUgmr7vP5A/VNq3BH-1RvI/AAAAAAAACV8/2RofV9xQPmw/s1600/10153817_680843791975892_3794441195256101591_n.jpg

[Joe Mc]

Vomit! You "live" yourself, there is no power greater than your experience with self. The culture may influence our choices, and view of self, but the idea that someone big and "out-there", other than ourselves, will somehow save us from our own conundrum, when personal introspection will do just as well if fully directed, is to "formally believe" that we are indeed helpless. Vomit!

Regardless of who shows us what, we are still the focus of our own attention and direct ourselves based on our intimate conclusions. It's this reliance on the "outside forces" that "know more than we do" that's driving this train of dysfunction. We'll be using this idea of god to replace our parents, teachers, preachers, governments influence over our own view of self. Only this god will reflect what we currently think that this god is, and since we haven't cleaned out the cultures influence over our view of things then we'll likely be putting into this gods mouth the same stuff that the "authorities", that got us into this mess in the first place, are encouraging us to do.

Among these twelve steps is essentially a redirection to some god the same dysfunction that we're unable to overcome by using the current cultural paradigms. Only we'll be still applying these same cultural paradigms by now assigning some god the task of dong roughly the same thing. yuck!

Wowww, A huge thread with very lengthy deep opinions which I'm going to read through when I find the time. One that stood out was the above by organic. I think the key to that step is the word 'Ourselves' SELF SELF SELF
Yes this SELF you speak about created by the powers of the world who at the best of times are quite mad and selfish is the self that this step seeks to change. The power to change it is a power which has several facets or can be viewed in several ways. Firstly, this power resides in our own hearts as love, aliveness and being so we may call that power God if we so wish, alot of people do. The addicted 'ourselves' is not receiving enough of this love and self esteem in it's active addiction so the step points to a process of letting love, god or whatever terms you wish to choose 'IN' into the wounded sense of self which as you rightly point out whose addiction has been almost facilitated by powers and behaviours of a society which doesn't really care.

Although I do agree that the way this step is written could be problematic as it appears that we are trying to supplicate a Nobo daddy as William Blake called him in the sky on a cloud. It's quite a conventional Christian picture of God out there and me down here but within Christian mysticism for example or other religions you find the inexorable truth that we cannot be separated from the ground of being which some call God, creation etc.

So I would contend that a power greater than 'ourselves' is a power which we might call our real SELF as opposed to our addicted self.

[Shivani Devi]

Wowww, A huge thread with very lengthy deep opinions which I'm going to read through when I find the time. One that stood out was the above by organic. I think the key to that step is the word 'Ourselves' SELF SELF SELF
Yes this SELF you speak about created by the powers of the world who at the best of times are quite mad and selfish is the self that this step seeks to change. The power to change it is a power which has several facets or can be viewed in several ways. Firstly, this power resides in our own hearts as love, aliveness and being so we may call that power God if we so wish, alot of people do. The addicted 'ourselves' is not receiving enough of this love and self esteem in it's active addiction so the step points to a process of letting love, god or whatever terms you wish to choose 'IN' into the wounded sense of self which as you rightly point out whose addiction has been almost facilitated by powers and behaviours of a society which doesn't really care.

Although I do agree that the way this step is written could be problematic as it appears that we are trying to supplicate a Nobo daddy as William Blake called him in the sky on a cloud. It's quite a conventional Christian picture of God out there and me down here but within Christian mysticism for example or other religions you find the inexorable truth that we cannot be separated from the ground of being which some call God, creation etc.

So I would contend that a power greater than 'ourselves' is a power which we might call our real SELF as opposed to our addicted self.The quickest way to my heart is to quote William Blake! - well, the second quickest way anyway. :hug:

From my recent forays into human consciousness, I have discovered there are two types of people:

Those who believe that Self = God and Non-Self = Not God and those who believe that Self = Not God and Non-Self = God.

Some who believe that the Self = I AM and others who will say that the Self, with either a upper-case or lower-case 'S' is still the ego.

I belong to the latter distinction and organic belongs to the former. Each viewpoint, of course is in our own personal and relative experience because the world would not be Maya if it were any other way.

Problem is, it seems that 99% of people are in the former group and only 1% in the latter...and hence the drama I keep running into, thread in and thread out.

It is the ego that becomes addicted and the realisation of that which is greater than ego which can only end it - if we have faith in that and can humbly admit to ourselves that such a concept exists, beyond and not limited to Nobodaddy who only burps and farts a lot. :biggrin:

[Miss Hepburn]

Hi Necro, I didn't know if you knew how much influence Emmet Fox
had on the early AA. Since I love all New Thought authors...I'll leave you
with this link.
My best always to you. :smile:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaemmetfox.html

[Joe Mc]

The quickest way to my heart is to quote William Blake! - well, the second quickest way anyway. :hug:

From my recent forays into human consciousness, I have discovered there are two types of people:

Those who believe that Self = God and Non-Self = Not God and those who believe that Self = Not God and Non-Self = God.

Some who believe that the Self = I AM and others who will say that the Self, with either a upper-case or lower-case 'S' is still the ego.

I belong to the latter distinction and organic belongs to the former. Each viewpoint, of course is in our own personal and relative experience because the world would not be Maya if it were any other way.

Problem is, it seems that 99% of people are in the former group and only 1% in the latter...and hence the drama I keep running into, thread in and thread out.

It is the ego that becomes addicted and the realisation of that which is greater than ego which can only end it - if we have faith in that and can humbly admit to ourselves that such a concept exists, beyond and not limited to Nobodaddy who only burps and farts a lot. :biggrin:


Ah Sunflower weary of Time
You counteth the steps of the sun
Seeking after that sweet golden clime
where the traveler's journey is done
Where the youth pined away with desire
And the cold virgin shrouded in snow
Arise from their graves and aspire
To where my sunflower wishes to go :hug:

A simple poem by William Blake but one i still quote when the opportunity arises and it arose and so i quoted it as I am apt to do being a poet primarily above all other things or inside all other things. But I love the possibility of the Self being selfish lol ..i mean its almost overlooked and i think the 12 steps are kinda genius in that sense. When you are in the 'bondage of self' you behave selfishly whatever that means for each individual. And also AA makes the definite and profound statement, 'Self can't get out of Self' . Somewhere in that little statement is alot of healing ? sorry for another skeletal reply i want to flesh out the points a bit lol ...maybe i will :) God bless.

[Shivani Devi]

Ah Sunflower weary of Time
You counteth the steps of the sun
Seeking after that sweet golden clime
where the traveler's journey is done
Where the youth pined away with desire
And the cold virgin shrouded in snow
Arise from their graves and aspire
To where my sunflower wishes to go :hug:

A simple poem by William Blake but one i still quote when the opportunity arises and it arose and so i quoted it as I am apt to do being a poet primarily above all other things or inside all other things. But I love the possible of the Self being selfish lol ..i mean its almost overlooked and i think the 12 steps are kinda genius in that sense. When you are in the 'bondage of self' you behave selfishly whatever that means for each individual. And also AA makes the definite and profound statement, 'Self can't get out of Self' . Somewhere in that little statement is alot of healing ? sorry for another skeletal reply i want to flesh out the points a bit lol ...maybe i will :) God bless.
"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair."

So sung a little Clod of Clay
Trodden with the cattle's feet,
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:

"Love seeketh only self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a Hell in Heaven's despite." - William Blake

[Shivani Devi]

Hi Necro, I didn't know if you knew how much influence Emmet Fox
had on the early AA. Since I love all New Thought authors...I'll leave you
with this link.
My best always to you. :smile:
http://www.barefootsworld.net/aaemmetfox.html
Thank you, Miss H. and I shall check it out. :hug3:
My best always to you as well.

[Joe Mc]

"Love seeketh not itself to please,
Nor for itself hath any care,
But for another gives its ease,
And builds a Heaven in Hell's despair."

So sung a little Clod of Clay
Trodden with the cattle's feet,
But a Pebble of the brook
Warbled out these metres meet:

"Love seeketh only self to please,
To bind another to its delight,
Joys in another's loss of ease,
And builds a Hell in Heaven's despite." - William Blake

I look foward to reading this poem with due attention. Thank you for sharing. :rolleyes:

[Shivani Devi]

I look foward to reading this poem with due attention. Thank you for sharing. :rolleyes:
No problem at all, but I much prefer the Proverbs of Hell (from the Marriage of Heaven and Hell) - it's like Tantra in a nutshell, but it's too lengthy to post, so I'll just provide a link:

http://www.bartleby.com/235/253.html

Now you all know why it is I love William Blake so much.

Quote him, W.B. Yeats, Emerson, T.S. Eliot or Aldous Huxley and you instantly snap me out of it and raise my vibration. *just a note for next time* lol

[Shivani Devi]

I love the possibility of the Self being selfish lol ..i mean its almost overlooked and i think the 12 steps are kinda genius in that sense. When you are in the 'bondage of self' you behave selfishly whatever that means for each individual. And also AA makes the definite and profound statement, 'Self can't get out of Self' . Somewhere in that little statement is alot of healing ? sorry for another skeletal reply i want to flesh out the points a bit lol ...maybe i will :) God bless.
You are also saying the same things I have been, but in a different way.

Hypothetical...what is the difference between 'self' and 'Self' in relation to the egoist concept of individuised existence? Where is the line drawn between a soul who is existing as the result of their samskaras and one who is not?

Self can't get out of Self through the mind, reasoning, intellect or any conscious effort on our part save for one - surrender....unabashed, ego-less surrender. If love is the motive for it, all the better it is.

Hence why the first three steps are the most important and we can pretty much forget the rest of them (as was stated before).

God bless you too. :hug2:

“Oh you the creator, you the destroyer, you who sustain and make an end,
Who in sunlight dance among the birds and the children at their play,
Who at midnight dance among corpses in the burning grounds,
You Shiva, you dark and terrible Bhairava,
You Suchness and Illusion, the Void and All Things,
You are the Lord of Life, and therefore I have brought you flowers;
You are the Lord of Death, and therefore I have brought you my heart—
This heart that is now your burning ground.
Ignorance there and self shall be consumed with fire.
That you may dance, Bhairava, among the ashes.
That you may dance, Lord Shiva, in a place of flowers,
And I'll dance with you.”


― Aldous Huxley, Island

Love it SO much!

[white pegasus]

step one is not to make you feel terrible -the purpose of step one is to admit that one is powerless over the disease of alcoholism-step one is to show one the unmanageability of the disease.

the whole point of step one is to surrender and accept that one is powerless over alcohol-it is not a moral dilemma in which one is to feel terrible-

Bill W(co-founder of AA) emphasized a respect for the variety of ways to recover from Alcoholism-He stated that the 12 steps is just one way that He found worked-

[Joe Mc]

You are also saying the same things I have been, but in a different way.

Hypothetical...what is the difference between 'self' and 'Self' in relation to the egoist concept of individuised existence? Where is the line drawn between a soul who is existing as the result of their samskaras and one who is not?

Self can't get out of Self through the mind, reasoning, intellect or any conscious effort on our part save for one - surrender....unabashed, ego-less surrender. If love is the motive for it, all the better it is.

Hence why the first three steps are the most important and we can pretty much forget the rest of them (as was stated before).

God bless you too. :hug2:

“Oh you the creator, you the destroyer, you who sustain and make an end,
Who in sunlight dance among the birds and the children at their play,
Who at midnight dance among corpses in the burning grounds,
You Shiva, you dark and terrible Bhairava,
You Suchness and Illusion, the Void and All Things,
You are the Lord of Life, and therefore I have brought you flowers;
You are the Lord of Death, and therefore I have brought you my heart—
This heart that is now your burning ground.
Ignorance there and self shall be consumed with fire.
That you may dance, Bhairava, among the ashes.
That you may dance, Lord Shiva, in a place of flowers,
And I'll dance with you.”


― Aldous Huxley, Island

Love it SO much!

Yes indeed such a beautiful poem, I've never read it before, it has that balance that some poems have which intrigues me. Yeats has a poem called
An Irish Airman forsees his death, and I've always loved this poem because it is about the collapse of the subjective-objective, the private and the public. I love honour but not war and I thought just this moment of Krishna and Arjuna on the battlefield.

I know that I shall meet my fate
Somewhere among the clouds above;
Those that I fight I do not hate
Those that I guard I do not love;
My country is Kiltartan Cross,
My countrymen Kiltartan’s poor,
No likely end could bring them loss
Or leave them happier than before.
Nor law, nor duty bade me fight,
Nor public man, nor cheering crowds,
A lonely impulse of delight
Drove to this tumult in the clouds;
I balanced all, brought all to mind,
The years to come seemed waste of breath,
A waste of breath the years behind
In balance with this life, this death.

:smile:

[Gem]

Of course this will not be useful for anybody who doesn't believe in a Power or concept greater than their own ego-self or any kind of 'God of their own understanding' or any universal source or force whatsoever, but some of us do, including myself.

Good point, I was thinking atheists would probably not.

Of course it also won't be useful if they cannot admit their 'bad habit' or whatever difficulty they are self-inflicting is causing problems in their life and they'd like to change, but sheer willpower hasn't worked because they're still relying on the ego-self for that.

Yep, will-power has a poor track record.

I have a different view to addiction recovery, and I'm a recovered addict myself, and to me, if a person is suited to 12-step, and that's how they want to approach it, then that's the thing to do, but different strokes for different folks... each in their own way. My main criticism in 12-step is the identification, 'I'm an alcoholic'... that rubs me the wrong way a little.

[Gem]

Well I'm in good company. Even the co-founder of AA didn't rely on that list, choosing to use LSD instead to address his own issues.

Now there's a group I'd attend (I'd attend several)

http://www.alternet.org/drugs/founder-alcoholics-anonymous-lsd-experience-help-addicts-stay-clean (http://www.alternet.org/drugs/founder-alcoholics-anonymous-lsd-experience-help-addicts-stay-clean)
In fact, Bill Wilson, the co-founder of the Alcoholics Anonymous program, actually considered promoting LSD as a tool for alcoholics to shake their addiction. Wilson was a close associate with many early adopters of LSD and took numerous trips in controlled, scientific settings while he was involved with the AA program.

Words are just words and ideas are just ideas. Bill felt the need to use the experience of LSD in order to bring substance to the process and not simply rely on concepts alone.



My own spiritual experience started with experiences and are driven by experiences and is not reliant on the dreams that are formed though persistent thought habits. Bill Wilson agrees. He was not happy with the idea that this list should stand alone.

Such lists are a whistle stop on the way toward transformation. If one embraces them as anything more, then the list itself becomes a prison. You are of course free to follow the course you see fit, my response is a reaction to the shallowness of the list itself. And in this I'm in the company with the co-founder of this list. He viscerally didn't didn't like the idea of being stuck in one place either.

[davidsun]

Firstly, this power resides in our own hearts as love, aliveness and being ... So I would contend that a power greater than 'ourselves' is a power which we might call our real SELF as opposed to our addicted self.
:icon_thumright:

[Gem]

It works if you do it right.

Step 1 is the most important step of all. It helps an addict to hit rock bottom so they can realize how problematic the issue is.

Addicts "love" what they are addicted to and often make excuses to enable their addictions.

You always tell yourself, "I can control it", but it's an addiction so of course you never can.

The next trap addicts fall into is committing to recovery, but always holding in the back of their mind this thought: "Once I recover I will then try to find a healthy way to keep using *insert bad habit here* in a balanced way."

And that's just not possible, that's why they continously relapse.
Step 1 is designed to help addicts realize that.

In AA we tell people if there is ANY doubt in their mind that they have a problem with drinking, they should go back out and try controlled drinking.
Some people are able to control their drinking but addicts are NOT.
If you can control your drinking then you are NOT an addict. Real addicts do not have any control over their addictions, and they never will be able to. It is something they will have to abstain from forever.
Step 1 is designed to make you feel absolutely terrible. You are supposed to realize the extent of your problem, realize all the damage it is has done in your life, and it should make you feel absolutely HOPELESS.
That is the whole point of the step.
Because you realize you have no control to get over it yourself, which is true, and that will make you open to other ideas.

As an addict, you've indulged in control seeking behaviours and have relied on your giant ego to get you out of these unhealthy patterns time and time again, and you've always failed because addiction is always stronger than you are.

Most people who turn to AA have also been neglected by the mental health system and other addiction support groups or therapist, which also failed them. They turn to AA as a last resort, knowing nothing else out there can help them. But they are definitely encouraged to try out all those other forms of therapies beforehand.

Step 2 and 3 are not religious, it is a spiritual program. Your "higher power" can be anything you want it to be, in fact that is encouraged, the only requirement is that it has to be something loving. So if your idea of a higher power is your higher self, then so be it. You actually aren't allowed to even talk about "God" in AA meetings, because it can scare away newcomers. It isn't a christian group or any set religious group. Everyone there has different ideas of what their higher powers are.

As long as you realize that your addictive, ego self is completely messed up without your spirituality.
The psychological part of steps 1, 2 and 3 are super important, because it tries to mimic a natural "realization that you want to recover".

Do you know how some people say, "one day I just woke up with the desire to recover and it was like a miracle and and my addiction was just miraculously released from me?" That's exactly what the 12 steps are trying to copy. Step 1 tries to facilitate that desire to recover, and step 2 and 3 facilitates the belief that you can, and that is ultimately the only thing that helps people recover, but these steps have narrowed it down in such a way that it really helps people when they do it right.
The rest of the steps are all about making ammends and letting go, which is also very important in recovery, but also I think that kind of self work would benefit every person.
All the steps have to be done in order. Even the steps "becoming willing" to do something are very important and can take awhile.

Good explanation.

[Shivani Devi]

Now there's a group I'd attend (I'd attend several)

[URL="http://www.alternet.org/drugs/founder-alcoholics-anonymous-lsd-experience-help-addicts-stay-clean"]
I can imagine it now...

"We admitted we are powerless over acid and our lives had become unmanageable" :D

[Gem]

Wowww, A huge thread with very lengthy deep opinions which I'm going to read through when I find the time. One that stood out was the above by organic. I think the key to that step is the word 'Ourselves' SELF SELF SELF
Yes this SELF you speak about created by the powers of the world who at the best of times are quite mad and selfish is the self that this step seeks to change. The power to change it is a power which has several facets or can be viewed in several ways. Firstly, this power resides in our own hearts as love, aliveness and being so we may call that power God if we so wish, alot of people do. The addicted 'ourselves' is not receiving enough of this love and self esteem in it's active addiction so the step points to a process of letting love, god or whatever terms you wish to choose 'IN' into the wounded sense of self which as you rightly point out whose addiction has been almost facilitated by powers and behaviours of a society which doesn't really care.

Although I do agree that the way this step is written could be problematic as it appears that we are trying to supplicate a Nobo daddy as William Blake called him in the sky on a cloud. It's quite a conventional Christian picture of God out there and me down here but within Christian mysticism for example or other religions you find the inexorable truth that we cannot be separated from the ground of being which some call God, creation etc.

So I would contend that a power greater than 'ourselves' is a power which we might call our real SELF as opposed to our addicted self.
Sometimes there is a large disparity between who you'd like to be and who you are, and who we are is really only what we do, so when indulging an addiction while wanting not to be that guy, there is turmoil, and in my experience that turmoil is nothing compared to that which arises when you stop using. I believe in most cases intoxicant addictions overlie severe trauma issues, abandonments, abuses and the like, and we end up finding quite the mess when the cloud of intoxication is lifted. I think recovery is best approached, not from the behavior, but the compultion itself, for the consumption of intoxicants may be an aversion strategy more than it is a craving.

[davidsun]

Some who believe that the Self = I AM and others who will say that the Self, with either a upper-case or lower-case 'S' is still the ego.

I belong to the latter distinction ...

- if we have faith in that and can humbly admit to ourselves that such a concept exists, beyond and not limited to Nobodaddy who only burps and farts a lot. :biggrin:

Pertaining to how some 'see' (i.e. think, feel, and believe to be true about "the" (there ain't no 'other') Cap-S "Self"):

From Ch.2 of The Bhagavad Gita:
"The Vedic Scriptures tell of the three constituents of life – the Qualities. Rise above all of them, O*Arjuna, above all the pairs of opposing sensations; be steady in truth, free from worldly anxieties and centered in the Self.
{Caveat then added:} As a man can drink water from any side of a full tank, so the skilled theologian can wrest from any scripture that which will serve his purpose."

and "When a man has given up the desires of his heart and is satisfied with the Self alone, be sure that he has reached the highest state."

And from Ch.3:
"The soul who meditates on the Self is content to serve the Self and rests satisfied within the Self; there remains nothing more for him to accomplish.
He has nothing to gain by the performance or non-performance of action. His welfare depends not on any contribution that an earthly creature can make.
Therefore do thy duty perfectly, without care for the results, for he who does his duty disinterestedly attains the Supreme."

And from Ch.6 (pertaining to 'a step' of the 12, I think):
"Let him seek liberation by the help of his Highest Self, and let him never disgrace his own Self. For that Self is his only friend; yet it may also be his enemy.
To him who has conquered his lower nature by Its help, the Self is a friend, but to him who has not done so, It is an enemy."

And from Ch.7:
"Earth, water, fire, air, ether, mind, intellect and personality; this is the eightfold division of My Manifested Nature.
This is My inferior Nature; but distinct from this, O*Valiant One, know thou that my Superior Nature is the very Life which sustains the universe.
It is the womb of all being; for I*am He by Whom the worlds were created and shall be dissolved.
O*Arjuna! There is nothing higher than Me; all is strung upon Me as rows of pearls upon a thread."

:cool:

[Shivani Devi]

Pertaining to how some 'see' (i.e. think, feel, and believe to be true about "the" (there ain't no 'other') Cap-S "Self"):

From Ch.2 of The Bhagavad Gita:
"The Vedic Scriptures tell of the three constituents of life – the Qualities. Rise above all of them, O*Arjuna, above all the pairs of opposing sensations; be steady in truth, free from worldly anxieties and centered in the Self.
{Caveat then added:} As a man can drink water from any side of a full tank, so the skilled theologian can wrest from any scripture that which will serve his purpose."

and "When a man has given up the desires of his heart and is satisfied with the Self alone, be sure that he has reached the highest state."


http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showpost.php?p=1615661&postcount=34

Already quoted exactly the same verse today. :icon_eek: :D

[Shivani Devi]

Having said that, although I can quote the Gita to heaven and back, I am a Shaivite and don't follow it. lol

[Shivani Devi]

All I know is there's 'me' and there's Siva who 'ain't me' and because this is my own personal experience, all the counter arguments in the universe won't matter.

[Gem]

Then there's a social component and a life circumstance issue, and in my case, the leaving of a drug was the leaving of a social circle. I haven't kept a single contact from the old crew, and I moved to a new town - and circumstances also come into play, and there are life circumstances where one needs a little 'altered consciousness' to get them through the night... so... when I consider the elements of life history, emotional condition, social environment and the difficulty of circumstances one might endure, I find something complex and multifaceted pertains to intoxicant addiction.

[r6r6]

I believe 12 steps{ integers } define a sine-wave. \/\/ i.e. two top peaks and two bottom{ trough } peaks when 0{ place/position holder } and 12 act as the same position of connection.

0.............6...............12........
..1........5....7.........11...........
....2....4.........8...10...............
.......3..............9....................

Then if inside-out the sine-wave from above we get inside sine-wave, between outer surface top and inner surface bottom.
.1.........5....7.........11........

0............6................12.....
.....3...............9................

...2...4..........8...10.............

Prime steps{ numbers } are in bold.

1, 5, 7, 11...outer surface set

0, 3, 6, 9, 12 inside self-stablizing triangular set ergo a sine-wave in of itself.

2, 4, 8, 10...inner surface set

----------------------------------

12 = 2*6 and 3*4

4-fold{ symmetry } cubo{6}-octa{8}hedron has 12 vertexes

5-fold{ symmetry } icosa{20}hedron has same 12 vertexes

Tetra{4}hedron has 12 surface 60 degree angles via 4 triangles /\

Rhombic dodeca{12}hedron has 12 diamond-shaped surface openings/polygons.

The rhombic dodecahedron may be the most common crystal shape found on Earth.

12 = 5{ phi } + 5{ phi } + 2{ polar charge }

5-fold symmetry is intimately associated with phi{ 1.618 }/Golden Mean and Fibonacci{ 0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 34, 55,

[Joe Mc]

Lots of people have a problem with the concept of powerlessness ? In step 1 it says 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, our lives had become unmanageable.' It seems counter intuitive to admit powerlessness over anything as our world for the most part encourages and equates gaining power over anything as a sign of progress. Is power the same as mastery, maybe these two concepts are intertwined ? But it chokes most addicts or alkies that they have become so stupid as to have lost control over their own lives in terms of substance abuse ? It's simply stunning as well to see someone who has metaphorically and in reality holes in the seat of their pants say, no i'm not powerless over anything and yet the world can throw up scenarios like a Tsunami which washes away thousands of lives of people sunbathing on a beach at Christmas. What power was involved in that tragic act ? Why is it so difficult for an addict to admit powerlessness over a substance or process, if they are processed addicted as in gambling etc ?

[r6r6]

[quote=r6r6r]
0.............6...............12........
..1........5....7.........11...........
....2....4.........8...10...............
.......3..............9....................

That is actually 13 steps since I began with 0.

However, teh first 12 prime numbers are;
2.3-5-7....11-13....17-19...23....29-31....37

3 * 12 = 36 so we have the one extra prime number. 37.
---------------------------------------------------------------

Humans, if not other animals have 12 cranial nerves. Not sure if that is a bilateral set, or not.

r6

[7luminaries]

Lots of people have a problem with the concept of powerlessness ? In step 1 it says 'We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, our lives had become unmanageable.' It seems counter intuitive to admit powerlessness over anything as our world for the most part encourages and equates gaining power over anything as a sign of progress. Is power the same as mastery, maybe these two concepts are intertwined ? But it chokes most addicts or alkies that they have become so stupid as to have lost control over their own lives in terms of substance abuse ? It's simply stunning as well to see someone who has metaphorically and in reality holes in the seat of their pants say, no i'm not powerless over anything and yet the world can throw up scenarios like a Tsunami which washes away thousands of lives of people sunbathing on a beach at Christmas. What power was involved in that tragic act ? Why is it so difficult for an addict to admit powerlessness over a substance or process, if they are processed addicted as in gambling etc ?

It's called pride, in the unhealthy sense of stubbornness and arrogance.
From a place of stubborn narcissism, or arrogance, we deceive ourselves into denying the truth of our fallibility and our mortality, of our obvious weaknesses and vulnerabilities. We deceive ourselves into thinking that others do not matter equally to ourselves, but that is simply a convenient lie.

From a place of humility, however, the truth of our weaknesses and vulnerabilities seems obvious, and moreover it seems a manageable truth, one we can accept.
Because we realise we neither are nor need to be infallible or perfect. We simply need to be authentic, to be present, and to take ownership of our intent, thought, word, and deed. This means making amends and it means taking conscious decisions going forward. Whilst also recognizing that others matter equally to ourselves.

We may not all have a recognised addiction.
But because these are universal steps on the spiritual journey, I have said more than once that IMO most of the 12-step process of growth, ownership, and right action/right living applies to most folks in most times and places.

Peace & blessings all :hug3:
7L

[Joe Mc]

It's called pride, in the unhealthy sense of stubbornness and arrogance.
From a place of stubborn narcissism, or arrogance, we deceive ourselves into denying the truth of our fallibility and our mortality, of our obvious weaknesses and vulnerabilities. We deceive ourselves into thinking that others do not matter equally to ourselves, but that is simply a convenient lie.

From a place of humility, however, the truth of our weaknesses and vulnerabilities seems obvious, and moreover it seems a manageable truth, one we can accept.
Because we realise we neither are nor need to be infallible or perfect. We simply need to be authentic, to be present, and to take ownership of our intent, thought, word, and deed. This means making amends and it means taking conscious decisions going forward. Whilst also recognizing that others matter equally to ourselves.

We may not all have a recognised addiction.
But because these are universal steps on the spiritual journey, I have said more than once that IMO most of the 12-step process of growth, ownership, and right action/right living applies to most folks in most times and places.

Peace & blessings all :hug3:
7L

Thanks Luminary, very thoughtful and deep reply, sorry I'm so late in thanking you. All the best Joe.