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Iamit
21-05-2017, 06:29 PM
How would one ever know whether one or an other was enlightened or not? It could only ever be an alledged state which may or may not exist.

Yet some claim to be in such a state, and/or followers claim that the person they follow is in such a state.

Attempts are made to describe the characteristics but who is the authority on such matters and where do they get their authority from? Is it from some supernatural being or extraterrestial whose existance is easily challenged, or his/her representative on Earth?

iamthat
21-05-2017, 08:55 PM
What do we mean by the term "enlightenment"? Different people have different ideas about what enlightenment is. There are definite expansions of consciousness on the spiritual path - at what point do we say, this is enlightenment?

Some people think of enlightenment as the ultimate goal, after which we have completed the spiritual journey. Other people think that the spiritual journey never ends - whatever our state of consciousness, there is always a greater state to aspire to.

Unfortunately there is a lot of glamour and illusion around spiritual teachers and the idea of enlightenment. Some people have an expansion of consciousness and believe that they are enlightened. Some people are only too wiling to call this teacher or that teacher enlightened - perhaps this makes them feel special, because they have sat at the feet of an enlightened Master. I doubt that any of us have reached a state where we can genuinely judge someone else's spiritual attainment and know where they stand.

At the end of the day, enlightenment is just another label. The genuinely enlightened Soul is not concerned what others think.

Peace.

FallingLeaves
21-05-2017, 10:34 PM
How would one ever know whether one or an other was enlightened or not? It could only ever be an alledged state which may or may not exist.


my question is, if you were truly enlightened, why would you even care that you were or were not enlightened?

anyway the way you put the question it is obviously jsut another ego-based concept to get fooled by :smile:

Shivani Devi
22-05-2017, 12:39 AM
my question is, if you were truly enlightened, why would you even care that you were or were not enlightened?

anyway the way you put the question it is obviously jsut another ego-based concept to get fooled by :smile:Exactly.

People can muck around with words and descriptions as much as they like and it will make no difference.

This comes directly off the back of another thread I just replied to. It's funny how when I check all my 'subscribed threads' people's responses (and mine) tend to directly follow each other - like the whole forum is one huge thread.

http://www.spiritualforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=111842&page=3

self-realization
22-05-2017, 03:51 AM
Enlightenment, awakening, self realization occurs when there is a shift in consciousness that drops the illusion of a me and a mine. When there is no longer the illusion of a me, then all of life is a dynamic of mind and an awareness of that dynamic. When self-realization occurs and there is only a sense of awareness or knowingness, then transcendence occurs through that perception into a state of pure no-thingness. This is the Absolute.

Iamit
22-05-2017, 10:55 PM
In the interest of protecting the character it serves, the mind can do whatever it wants.The levels of deception it can employ to that end are many and complex including presenting a character as enlightened if it resonates with that idea as a solution for the character it serves. It can conceal this activity even FROM ITSELF! (repression) if it thinks it is advantageous to do so

Can it be seen how useless it is to resist the mind. The you that is trying to resist IS the mind presenting at trying to resist itself!

Better just relax and hope that your mind is efficient at protecting you. There is obviously variation in its efficiency in different people as can been seen in the varying circumstances of those around us.

Because it can behave in that way, the mind may be regarded as an enemy but it is the mind itself saying that about itself!

These posts are also of course mind talking to itself and other minds.

Mind is an unbelievably fantastic thing of immense, possibly limitless power.

FallingLeaves
22-05-2017, 11:43 PM
In the interest of protecting the character it serves, the mind can do whatever it wants.The levels of deception it can employ to that end are many and complex including presenting a character as enlightened if it resonates with that idea as a solution for the character it serves. It can conceal this activity even FROM ITSELF! (repression) if it thinks it is advantageous to do so

Can it be seen how useless it is to resist the mind. The you that is trying to resist IS the mind presenting at trying to resist itself!

Better just relax and hope that your mind is efficient at protecting you. There is obviously variation in its efficiency in different people as can been seen in the varying circumstances of those around us.

Because it can behave in that way, the mind may be regarded as an enemy but it is the mind itself saying that about itself!

These posts are also of course mind talking to itself and other minds.

Mind is an unbelievably fantastic thing of immense, possibly limitless power.

all i can say, if you believe you are in a trap, you will act like you are in a trap, then you won't ever be able to believe you aren't in a trap!

Nowayout
22-05-2017, 11:57 PM
The birds fly without a care, well they have their day but anyway, as people walk around with their heads in their hands, frowning as they go down the human roads.

Enlightenment = liberation but from what? The mind, the earthly bounds, the struggle.:icon_frown:

Some say all we need to do is wake up. It's like a shift in awareness or some darn thing that all we can muster is a fleeting glimpse. Keeps us going....

Delusions, like angels feathers, are all around us.

I am everything and everything is me. Shure at a heart level.

What is the root of this enlightenment tree, the ground of the matter being we all want some relief?

OK..

No way out...

I left this town in darkness
With its lights fading
In the distance
Needing to escape
I went out to the desert
It was a passage
In time....
I'm going back now
to the city
To the lights
And all my friends
I missed
Along the way...

FallingLeaves
23-05-2017, 12:26 AM
The birds fly without a care, well they have their day but anyway, as people walk around with their heads in their hands, frowning as they go down the human roads.

Enlightenment = liberation but from what? The mind, the earthly bounds, the struggle.:icon_frown:

Some say all we need to do is wake up. It's like a shift in awareness or some darn thing that all we can muster is a fleeting glimpse. Keeps us going....

Delusions, like angels feathers, are all around us. :tongue:

I am everything and everything is me... OOOOOKKKKK.

What is the root of this tree, the ground of the matter being we all want some relief.

OK..

No way out...

i kind of agree... in my view enlightenment is itself just another trap for people to get caught in. You work really hard to be able to say you are not working at working, and you eventually get your desire. Then you sit around for a while doing little to nothing but just 'being', then you die, just like everyone else. And in a blink of an eye, it is all gone. No way out!

But then again I guess the birds aren't trying to 'get out of' their 'predicament' to 'some place better' either, are they? They just kinda plod along in an ordinary way doing ordinary things. Maybe that is why they seem so happy!

as far as wanting relief... I wanna eat cookies all the time too but I'm grown up and I know better. But man did it take me a lot of kicking and screaming before I would open my eyes enough to look at something i didn't want to see! :smile:

Iamit
23-05-2017, 12:31 AM
all i can say, if you believe you are in a trap, you will act like you are in a trap, then you won't ever be able to believe you aren't in a trap!

Exploring the nature, and possible manifestation patterns of Oneness/mind, is of academic interest only. Whether one is in a trap or not has no effect on connection here but thank you for your concern.

Iamit
23-05-2017, 12:41 AM
my question is, if you were truly enlightened, why would you even care that you were or were not enlightened?

anyway the way you put the question it is obviously jsut another ego-based concept to get fooled by :smile:

You said that as though you think there is something wrong with ego-based concepts even though, from a nondual perspective, it would be Oneness appearaing as such.

By the same token it would be Oneness appearing as you saying that, so all is perfectly in order. Both you and I saying whatever as the One Love in action dreaming difference where there is none. Why does Oneness manifest as such? Perhaps because it can I guess, but also I like the idea that, whatever it manifests, automaticaaly maintains a perfect balance on the infinate scale, even though that balance may not be apparent 'locally'.

Always a perfect balance has a nice ring to it dont you think? And means that it is never why is this or that happening, but that this is always how it must be for that balance to be maintained.

:)

Perfect!

:)

Nowayout
23-05-2017, 12:45 AM
Oneness/mind...

Ego, mind, self, all is nothing if it knows not love?

Love has degrees, self-love, the beginning of love because it begins there, love for others because you can now love and live with yourself, and universal love, that transcended way of "being".

Love is the right path is it not regardless of mind games?.

Is it our mind games that take us down another path?

Nowayout
23-05-2017, 01:04 AM
Anyway, I'm not enlightened, but I try very hard to be a loving person.

Traffic jams bring out my true nature..:D

Iamit
23-05-2017, 01:46 AM
Oneness/mind...

Ego, mind, self, all is nothing if it knows not love?

Love has degrees, self-love, the beginning of love because it begins there, love for others because you can now love and live with yourself, and universal love, that transcended way of "being".

Love is the right path is it not?.

But if Oneness is All, it would be both sides of all conflict. There would only be the illusion of distinction and discrimination where there was no distinction or discrimination whatsoever. If there is the absense of distinction and discrimination thats another way of describing unconditional love.

So it would not be that Love is the right path as opposed to some other path but rather that unconditional love is All There Is, and therefore unavoidable.

!

Nowayout
24-05-2017, 12:53 AM
Yes, I see....

If we are all one why hurt the other.

When the personal passions are quieted then that need to be filled by others ebbs away. Then one is freed from the fetters of personal exploitations upon others and lives for the moment, and all the greatness it contains.

Love flows logically from this point because it awakens in the heart of the one illumined this way.

But it happens from the heart.

Ground
24-05-2017, 04:58 AM
anyway the way you put the question it is obviously jsut another ego-based concept to get fooled by :smile:
You said that as though you think there is something wrong with ego-based concepts even though, from a nondual perspective, it would be Oneness appearaing as such.
:laughing7:

We see that enlightenment is continually challenged :wink:

ajay00
04-06-2017, 11:18 AM
How would one ever know whether one or an other was enlightened or not? It could only ever be an alledged state which may or may not exist.

Yet some claim to be in such a state, and/or followers claim that the person they follow is in such a state.

Attempts are made to describe the characteristics but who is the authority on such matters and where do they get their authority from? Is it from some supernatural being or extraterrestial whose existance is easily challenged, or his/her representative on Earth?

Enlightenment means a state where all unconscious tendencies or vasanas have been dissolved by the light of awareness or total love, leading to the cessation of cravings and aversions , which create the structure of the separative ego.

Since this is a subjective phenomenon, it is the one who is enlightened who proclaims this fact , mainly for the purpose of teaching. There are many who do not teach and are just content the way they are, and hence do not state their enlightenment.

From what I have learnt from direct contact with an enlightened master, they are perpetually in a state of awareness without the domination of thoughts or emotions as is the state of the vast majority of people.

They can think at will and switch off when thought is not needed effortlessly.

An another aspect which distinguish them is deep peace, joy and tranquility. They are also very graceful as all their actions are balanced and centered in present moment awareness without any of the mental agitation, emotivity or haste which is the characterestic of the unconscious.

Ground
04-06-2017, 11:38 PM
Enlightenment means a state where ...
Since enlightenment exists only through imputation it may mean everything depending on the definition provided by the one who is interested in enlightenment.

Shivani Devi
05-06-2017, 12:52 AM
How would one ever know whether one or an other was enlightened or not? It could only ever be an alledged state which may or may not exist.

Yet some claim to be in such a state, and/or followers claim that the person they follow is in such a state.

Attempts are made to describe the characteristics but who is the authority on such matters and where do they get their authority from? Is it from some supernatural being or extraterrestial whose existance is easily challenged, or his/her representative on Earth?We could always go by the 'rule of Jesus' which states: "by their deeds, ye shall know them".

If a person was enlightened, they wouldn't really 'know' it, as if enlightenment was ever a thing to be known or rationalised.

If somebody made the 'claim' to be enlightened, others would simply say "no, you are not" but how would they know? others may just simply say "well, good for you".

There is a member of this forum who tends to follow me around, PMing me to show him some "siddhis"- a few days ago, he asked me to ask God to tell him what 'secret code' he had written down as that would make him believe that God exists. I sorta told him that he had to believe in God first before that could ever happen.

He then asked me to get God to tell him what guru he should accept as his master and the 'message' I got from the universe was 'none, because he isn't ready for one yet...he is unable to obtain the Grace of one'.

I told him so and he said "if a guru could show me God's power...if I could get the guru to tell me what code I had written down...if I saw him walk on water...if he did all of these things for me...then I would accept him as my guru".

To which I replied "do you honestly think a real/true guru is going to do all of that, just to have you, an atheist, a skeptic and a non-believer as his disciple? what makes you so special? Usually you will see a guru do all of that only after you have been with him for a while...siddhis are not there to display 'on command'...there is no control over them...they just happen spontaneously and in concurrence with a true soul-need".

Anyway, the conversation kept going around in circles and I realised I was only wasting my time with this member. His heart and mind both were totally closed off and I tried to open them and failed...but why was I trying? why did I want him to feel what I felt inside? I wanted for him to be happy...content within himself but why? he seemed pretty happy and content anyway, being an atheist and a skeptic...who was I to try and change that?

It was a lesson for me to just exist in my own awareness of Self and let people judge that for what they want to judge it as because people will believe whatever they want to anyway...they will believe it until there is no more belief because they understand it...they know it...which goes way beyond any knowing or understanding that an egoic mind can ever have.

Iamit
06-06-2017, 09:49 AM
We could always go by the 'rule of Jesus' which states: "by their deeds, ye shall know them".

If a person was enlightened, they wouldn't really 'know' it, as if enlightenment was ever a thing to be known or rationalised.

If somebody made the 'claim' to be enlightened, others would simply say "no, you are not" but how would they know? others may just simply say "well, good for you".

There is a member of this forum who tends to follow me around, PMing me to show him some "siddhis"- a few days ago, he asked me to ask God to tell him what 'secret code' he had written down as that would make him believe that God exists. I sorta told him that he had to believe in God first before that could ever happen.

He then asked me to get God to tell him what guru he should accept as his master and the 'message' I got from the universe was 'none, because he isn't ready for one yet...he is unable to obtain the Grace of one'.

I told him so and he said "if a guru could show me God's power...if I could get the guru to tell me what code I had written down...if I saw him walk on water...if he did all of these things for me...then I would accept him as my guru".

To which I replied "do you honestly think a real/true guru is going to do all of that, just to have you, an atheist, a skeptic and a non-believer as his disciple? what makes you so special? Usually you will see a guru do all of that only after you have been with him for a while...siddhis are not there to display 'on command'...there is no control over them...they just happen spontaneously and in concurrence with a true soul-need".

Anyway, the conversation kept going around in circles and I realised I was only wasting my time with this member. His heart and mind both were totally closed off and I tried to open them and failed...but why was I trying? why did I want him to feel what I felt inside? I wanted for him to be happy...content within himself but why? he seemed pretty happy and content anyway, being an atheist and a skeptic...who was I to try and change that?

It was a lesson for me to just exist in my own awareness of Self and let people judge that for what they want to judge it as because people will believe whatever they want to anyway...they will believe it until there is no more belief because they understand it...they know it...which goes way beyond any knowing or understanding that an egoic mind can ever have.

When we are conveying our thoughts and feelings as you have just done, what is communicating?

Shivani Devi
06-06-2017, 09:55 AM
When we are conveying our thoughts and feelings as you have just done, what is communicating?
Conveying thoughts and feelings, of course. :smile:

stars
06-06-2017, 12:55 PM
There is a belief among some people that Jesus was someone that had become enlightened in a past life, obviously sometime before the year 1 AD, and came back to share all that he had learned in order for the rest of us to become enlightened too. It's a fun theory to explore, and you can find it by googling.

You'll also find a lot of stuff on how his original teachings were very similar to reincarnation, and not what they teach in modern christian denominations. In fact, some people think that he and buddha shared the same soul, perhaps his time as buddha was when he became enlightened?

iamthat
06-06-2017, 08:25 PM
There are many theories about this, including the idea that Jesus (the incarnated individual) was an Initiate who was overshadowed by the Christ (the Divine Consciousness). In other words, Jesus was the vehicle for a much higher Being.

And the Buddha came to teach Divine Wisdom while Jesus came to teach Divine Love.

And reincarnation was part of some early Christian teachings until it was declared anathema at some Council in 553. It all comes down to control. If people believe that they face an eternity in heaven or an eternity in hell then they need the church and the priests to improve their chances of getting to heaven. But if souls reincarnate then there is no eternal reward or punishment, and the church becomes a bit irrelevant.

Peace.

Iamit
08-06-2017, 05:39 PM
Conveying thoughts and feelings, of course. :smile:

The questioon was "what is it that communicates?" not what is communicated:)

Shivani Devi
09-06-2017, 07:01 AM
The questioon was "what is it that communicates?" not what is communicated:)
The manomaya kosha communicates through the intermediary of speech and non-verbal body gestures at the level of this gross, material plane we all exist upon.
https://www.yogapedia.com/definition/7765/manomaya-kosha

You may then say that 'this isn't true communication' - however, the relativistic context in this case, ensures this an accurate transcription. :wink: